ever since our appearance on the RollPlay Roundtable i've wanted an excuse to sit down with matt and talk games. so we did, and here it is. matt is / mattcolville watch live @ / adamkoebel follow me @ / skinnyghost
44:32-45:15 This is a big reason for this idea. If you close your eyes and ignore what he's saying, just listening to the vocal inflection he uses, we'll still get excited by the good sound storytelling, and I hope I can emulate that in the games I run
36:09 My favorite quote: "I just hope that people understand that you don't have to try to find your fun inside this one edition of this one game that Matt Colville happens to love. There's a bunch of other nonsense out there."
I could listen to these two chat it up all day. Love that they can actually debate and share opposing ideas, find common ground, and still respectfully share their opinions with us. Thanks fellas!
the little bit of world/universe that Evolve teased was so amazing... wish they gave it a real single player campaign... bet Colville would have killed it :(
It's interesting to think Matt made his channel to make new Game Masters. I really only got interested in the game *to be* a Game Master. I played 2 seasons to make sure I understood the rules, then took on the mantle. And I haven't taken it off since
The idea of rules as a shared language is interesting if extended a little bit beyond the metaphor Matt was going for - I think it literally becomes a language for people who have been immersed in it to easily communicate ideas that are less easy to communicate in every day language. Adam does this routinely if he's playing a game that the rule isn't from, or just talking about day to day life, when he says "Make a steel test", "Read a situation", "Failed a circles roll", etc. Game systems, like natural languages, have concepts that they care about enough to chunk into a single term, which then can be thought about and talked about much more easily. This then plays into the idea of game as conversation, where everyone fluent in the language of the system can simply be describing the fiction to each other in the language of the rules. The difference between a conversation between fluent Burning Wheel speakers and an actual game becomes whether saying "Make a steel test" only communicates an idea, or also necessitates a dice roll, the results of which are incorporated into the fiction.
and then u have clueless morons upset there is no diversity in the game. Because noone complained about the book. Morons upset about things dont read these.
Than you! Adam's critique is a very americancentric (and for that very narrow) view of racism. Saying that there is no racism in europe, especially in eastern europe because "they are all white" is just ridiculous.
“ ...3 hrs in the parking lot, I thought we stopped because we were tired?” Yes, Yes, YES! RPing!!! Also... one good thing about being a GM, you are more likely to be able to find players AND you can usually ( at least after GMing them for a bit) play the games you want ( GURPs, Spacenaster, Twilight 2000, James Bond etc...) ... and I HAVE died in character creation in Traveller 😰
That might create a rip in the the space time continuum and result in us all being hurled into an alternate universe where Mike Mearls has a goatee and Chris Perkins has hair.
Adam Koebel If your looking for someone to disagree with, look no further than Hankerin! :) He's a very cool dude and I love his stuff but it seems like he very different ideas of what an RPG is supposed to be.
I find Adam's remarks on bending rules to a setting interesting, because he's also the author of Dungeon World, which I played and though to myself that it's main issue is how it tries to make character-interaction-heavy, narrative-heavy, but combat-light rules of Apocalypse World work for what's essentially a classic dungeon delving game. It didn't really work for me, because I felt this disjoint every step of the way - BUT I did only play a single session with a bunch of people unfamiliar with the game, we might have been doing something wrong. And still, it did a better job than another system I played lately which tried to adapt and even more lite, even more narrative-focused, very simple mechanic to a more tactical dungeon delving fare, which I thought just fell flat on its face because the moment you want to do something heroic-fantasy-like, the rules almost break on the spot.
I think the full quote should be Matt: It's easy to be a DM Matt: You'll suck when you start Matt: Makes 100+ videos to teach us how to DM (You get really good as a DM) Matt: I told you in my first video that it will be fun all the way!
I'm a huge Matt Colville fan and that's what's brought me here. I'm very impressed with you now as well. You really know your stuff. I've subbed and are looking forward to more great content.
I ran a campaign in which all the players were dragons. They started off as hatchlings and grew, established their lairs, and started to build their hoard. There was a world-changing plot arc that tied them all together, but it was mainly about being dragons. It was actually a really fun game.
Man- this really sucks. I love your content, and this is one of the best examples. I already miss your work on youtube and twitch, and now I'm just trolling around old stuff because I'm a masochist, apparently. I hope you're well, and, for what it's worth, I'm sorry this happened to you.
not even talking about the topic but I feel like people need some terry pratchett and I have the perfect quote for the "Synths are people" thing: "Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things." - Granny Weatherwax
I love to read RPG books cover to cover. It's how I've learned D&D, FFG's Star Wars, M&M. I love it, but I'm a huge nerd. Also why I'm probably forever a GM...
The idea of having player and character morals have at least some overlap is really interesting. I have a friend who really wanted to play a lizard person but could not handle the fact that they are Amoral. Immoral would be fine for her, but the idea of being amoral was something she knew she wouldn't be able to play. She decided the reason her character is an outcast druid is because she was born with morals and the other lizards couldn't accept her.
Their conversation has the weirdest tone. They say completely opposite contradictory statements, nod their heads in agreement, then move on to the next topic. Is this truly what civilized discussion looks like? It's facinating.
The phrase I have once heard is that "You do not win the opinion of the other party as their opinion is set in stone. What you are truly aiming to achieve is to sway the opinion of the audience/Jury." It's like Vaxxers vs anti-vaxxers, the prosecution vs the defence in court and so fourth. You aren't looking to convince the other side but rather you are aiming to convince the undecided, the people who don't have the same investment, such as the jury or members of the public. That is why politics in general is such an aggressive and stupid field as politicians will regularly defend what they know isn't right or true, they merely want people to vote for them at an election and present eachother like child murdering demons, when each likely have a graveyard in their closet. Which is why I really like this discussion. They both have different point of views that they recongise they can't necessarily agree on or employ personally, but they both recognise that each have perfectly valid points. They are only interested in allowing other tables finding their own view that fit them.
@@lordbiscuitthetossable5352 I'd rather have a dicussion where they lay out their point instead of blindly nodding and agreeing, I don't learn from people telling me:run it how you want. No tell me what X does compared to Y so I can understand what these methods do and how differentciate
I agree completely with the difference between the game and the fantasy. Critical Role is awesome fun to watch and all of the players seem to genuinely be having fun telling the stories and dramas that they do, but more than half of what makes that show entertaining is that they are all professional entertainers who love their job, not your average person playing a roleplaying game. For them, D&D gives them just enough framework for their honed and honest creativity to flourish, but for others there is very little there for anything but killing monsters and exploration. Like you both said, that's not a bad thing, but to pretend like it's a universal system is.
I always wondered how other people played roleplaying games. The group I've been with for the past few years loves RP so we've actually been playing in a rather similar fashion to all those shows.
Okat Yeah it's great if you play with a group that can do that well enough to have fun! I used to play with a bunch of theater buddies in a similar way. But I think that this is why people call Critical Role a bad example. They suddenly expect that playing D&D should be like being in a dramatic TV show and it's not unless you can make it that. There are better games for that.
It's not that far off from my experience of my average groups in this stage of my adult life. Course they do it which voice acting and acting experience and routine, but playing with people that do community acting, that are small time professional writers, work at production companies, are creative graphical artists, that are long time Nordic LARPing veterans, and just experienced roleplayers and that's pretty much how sessions are, just a little bit toned down and less focused as there's no production, no audience to take into account.
Just as anything you do in your life, you gey better when you dedicate more time to do it. If you just kill monster, you will be really good killing monsters, if you rolpley, you will improve in roleplaying
Matt has read the Belgariad and uses the red gold in his game. I think that is what hooked me at first. I feel similarly about Nerdarchy when they bring up Dragon Lance.
Listening to both of these guys quite a bit, I know that they disagree on a whole lot but are so polite to each other as to not say 'I think you're wrong about that.' I guess in the end its a conversation and not a debate. Still a good watch.
I'm not even sure what we disagree on. I don't think of Gygax as condescending. In fact, the opposite. But I also think it depends on when he was writing. But apart from that I think we see the world the same way.
I wouldn't call anything in this session a disagreement between either of you. If anything, it is parallel thought reaching the similar conclusions from different points of view. There were times where things 'could have been' a disagreement but, well, ultimately you agreed. You just got to that point differently. Which is 100% a-okay, but to a lot of people in today's cultural climate that seems or 'feels' like a disagreement... because you don't identify with the same thought process. It goes back to the point you both made about "faction identity". It also taps into the global problem, we think of it as sort of a distinctly American (Greater America... as in Canada, Mexico, South America, and etc) but is much more a human problem, of Tribalism. My tribe thinks this way, so it is right and you are wrong for thinking differently... even if we agree. /rant
You know, when people used to argue, long before we skew are views with TV and other media to tell us the "proper" way to disagree, people would explain why they disagree, make points to what would be the differing viewpoints, and then let the other side retort. It is a bit more productive. I am not saying there weren't heated debates and angry arguing (in fact, mud slinging in elections in the 1800's was much more demonstrative compared to today), but it didn't have to be all the time.
love the open dialogue of d&d. love the concept of strongholds and wars. using the rules as the language to communicate. I'm working on guild masters guide to ravinia. to cover the 3 pillars of play but expand the concepts of being a hero and work with factions/allies
Man, I need a weekly podcast of you two discussing things. idc if episode 37 of the KoeVille Podcast is the appropriate skill checks to make a peanut butter sandwich, i'd watch it.
I like this kind of video. Please make more videos like this where you discuss and share ideas with other people who are both interesting and offer insightful perspective. Love Matt, but I also love what you bring to the table in the discussion, and would love to see more of this with other people as well.
"If it didn't matter what the rules say and you could just make stuff up... you'd end up with a bunch of unhappy players because they would never really know 'how is the DM going to rule on this?' Because he's constantly just making it up." I've played in that campaign, and you're 100% right, Matt.
It's interesting that they talk about the distinction between narrative and story...it reminds me of the current fashion in video game design, to focus on environmental storytelling and emergent narrative. That's so much of what all RPGs are about, particularly D&D--it's about emergent narrative. The story that emerges from the experience you have playing the game. The story that you share with others who play the game. This is why games like Minecraft and No Man's Sky developed such a strong fanbase even before they had any kind of quest or plot system added. It was all emergent narrative and environmental storytelling.
I will say that I personally really liked reading through the Dresden Files RPG and the way it was written in character, but I can see how other people might not care for such a thing, and it probably makes it a poorer reference material. I will say that possibly one advantage it has is that it give you an idea of what the world and characters are like in a way that's more digestible than the White Wolf's "stick a bunch of prose in before you can even get to the actual game part" approach.
KadzarTathram I feel like you have to be a diehard Dresden fan to really enjoy the way they did the RPG books. I loved it, but I can see how it might not work for the average gamer.
My introduction to roleplaying games was Dark Heresy. But after that, it was (no joke) sitting down over a week during summer holidays and reading all three core books for AD&D2nd edition cover to cover twice.
This video reminds how much I love Tenra Bansho Zero and Ryuutama. TBZ is very much a high action, kung-fu, storytelling game. You have prologues, acts, and the most of the games can be finished in a night. The action is fast-paced and feels good. No one I know really likes to play it because the game is more about one-shots, because if your campaign goes longer than a few nights, it's easy to God mode your character if you use the system to min/max. Ryuutama is all about storytelling. Simplistic rules for combat because most of the rules are geared towards over world travel. Players keep a physical journal about their characters' journey and are awarded exp for it. It's player vs natural environment, sickness, injury during pilgrimage the players are making.
I don't know that Matt will ever see this but if anyone else wants Traveller-style business sci-fi Stars Without Number has a supplement called 'Suns of Gold' that adds the accounting back into SWN to make it more like Traveller.
Re: Vampire 5e. Yeah, if you listen to Martin Ericsson, he's kind of pretentious. I mean, his title is "Lead Storyteller". But if you listen to Kenneth Hite, who's writing the actual game mechanics, you can get a more hopeful impression.
greatly enjoyed it. This was very informative and a great time. I did not expect this but damn, you two have some pretty awesome chemistry. Would love to see more of it.
I believe one of the things that cause people to say a D&D game when someone talks about RPG also has to do with popularity redefining a term. Kind of like Band Aids aren't band aids. Vice Grips aren't vice grips. iPad isn't an ipad. The popular brand name takes over sometimes.
The problem with Rex is that what makes Dune good is the connection between the rules and the narrative objects. Stripping the Dune away makes the game not work nearly as well.
Loved it as a youtube vid. I could listen to Colville talk about anything, I'm coming to realize. Skinnyghost is insightful as ever, I dream of a series like Running the Game with these two collaborating together. Maybe get Mercer in there too when he's not busy designing D&D 6th Ed...
Fascinating discussion. Thanks, guys. Really like hearing these design discussions. I was surprised that you didn't talk more about Apocalypse World when you were talking about authorial voice.
I associate the one and only rule with basic roleplaying in the early 80s, and titles inspired by it during that time, that the system mechanisms, the setting material, even the dice rolls, are to suggest and inspire your entertainment not to hinder or to force it, they're the introductions for your creativity to take over, much like the design space you talk about, to open the door, to present the space but never to claim it. That along with the trust and power dynamic of the players and their chosen game master, always playing to entertain each other and not abusing the opportunity to inflict the personal power fantasy unto the group and the goal of a roleplaying game everyone's mutual entertainment. A system mechanism, or a set there of, are only as good as the inspiration it grants, as the picture it paints, as the setting it supports, as the paradigm it sets. There's only one rule, the rest are suggested system mechanisms that usually comes in as a published product, the game is not the product, the game is the group, the group decides to play a roleplaying game, then they add the flavors and some of that comes in the prepackaged form of published titles and some times those titles are full of bad and poorly written suggestions.
Rule zero compromise: Rule zero is a brilliant rule for the host. The host should always presume they can come up with something better for their table than the game designer. In a world with not enough rule zero for the host, every campaign would start with the example characters taking on the example campaign. Rule zero is a horrible rule for the game designer. The game designer should always presume they can put something in the book better than what the host will come up with. In a world with too much rule zero for the game designer, every game of D&D or World of Darkness would be impossible to discuss with people outside the game, because you'd have no shared assumptions and would have to detail basic concepts, like whether you're using levels or skill points. When this model is followed? The table has multiple options for each decision they feel they need to make. When rule zero is embraced by the designer and shunned by the host? The table has zero options, or perhaps one piss-poor one that the designer was sure the host would feel the need to improve on.
Got a chuckle out of the "you can't read an RPG book cover to cover, it is impossible" bit. That's the only way I take a game on-board and it's not hard, at all. Then again, I am also an old-school grognard wargamer, where learning ALL the rules before playing is a must :)
Berk is not considered that rude in England. It was even used in the children's show "trap door" when I was growing up as the name of the main character. Mind you there was also another show with characters called "Seaman Staines" and "Master Bates".
In regards to Traveller From the designer Marc Miller: "Traveller was most influenced by the “Dumarest Saga” books…" "When Mr. Miller designed Traveller, he intended it to be a generic sci-fi roleplaying game system, in which we could play any science fiction game we wanted. The Third Imperium setting came later." "I have stated from the start of Traveller: Out of the Box series that I believe Classic Traveller works-and works great-as is and without needing to be “fixed” or “improved.” "Traveller is a levelless system: characters may get better, but they don’t level up; they improve in skills, but at a cost in age. They also don’t all start as young adults: the character pre-generation lets everyone build an experienced character. They question how experienced can they get. When we first started playing (and testing), many players were creating experienced retirees with loads of skills and loads of money. I had an intuitive understanding that there had to be some risk they faced in this pre-generation system, and I added the chance that they could die. People still argue about whether that’s right. " "While playing Traveller, Marc role-plays. Very little rules. Traveller is truly a rules-light game system once you start playing. For our scenario, we generated characters by only rolling up stats. No skills. Just stats and pick your service. All rolls were made against those stats, but you couldn’t roll against the same stat again, until you had used them all. Oh, and you had to support your decision on which stat to use. After that, it was all role playing. Creating a communal story. He made it up as he went along, allowed us to build the story, and acted as “referee” just as intended. After we were through, he said “There. Now you know how I play Traveller.” "Each edition of Traveller appeals to its own particular type of player. The older editions continue to be available for the players who played them once upon a time and have fond memories of that material. I am talking about more than just the GDW editions: some players prefer HERO, or GURPS, or D20, and there are editions for them. But for someone new to Traveller, there are (in my mind) two choices: Traveller5 or Mongoose. I think either one will ultimately bring that player to the other, and the confluence of the two will add to their enjoyment."
There's always a few exceptions to the rules :) my group decided we wanted to play but none of us knew the rules or anyone else who did. So I picked up the rulebook and read it cover to cover several times before running a session. I learnt a lot when twitch happened and there were a load of DMs to watch so thanks to their inspiration I became a better DM
Awww I love listening to these two talk! The nicest & smartest boys! (I'm not being sarcastic, I think communicating to each other in blocks of texts that preclude the possibility of nonverbal cues is a really big hurdle to having discussions in sincerity & good faith. Even if memes can help at times for demonstrating in-group affection) The biggest thing that I find with Dungeons and Dragons is that for most perceivable gaps in play styles & procedures pertinent to the setting, there are a lot of forgotten "legacy tools" that can be found in earlier editions of the game but they've been rendered redundant, hand-wavy or meaningless in the wake of late 2nd edition AD&D and 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons, which I think still represents a very radical shift in the philosophy of how "the game" was designed and is approached by players even to this day. That is not to say that an "old-school" game is impossible in 3rd ed (rulings vs rules, tracking torches, rations, hex movement, asymmetric encounters where combat is the failure state & out of the box thinking is necessary) but a game like that will flourish in spite of the rules and not because of them. As written, 5e still very much does not lend itself to this style of play (despite the fact that it is more easily hacked) and house rules concerning hexcrawling, stronghold play & mass combat often tend to favor an over-reliance of rules abstractions via skill-check funnels over player character choice instead of procedures that give rise to emergent situations that demand player character attention and engagement. That being said, I think really crunchy games like 2nd ed AD&D and 3rd edition D&D were at least partially reactions against the excesses of the old-school approach. Impartial adjudication, inconsistent rulings & the narrative of encounter resolution devolving into a game of "Mother may I?". I also want to mention that while White Wolf elitism is inexcusable, I really think that a lot of it stems from the fact that the old-guard of gaming and its adherents can & could be ridiculously elitist, exclusionary & loathsome to new players that didn't immediately grok & agree with their approach. We're still having this conversation but now it has an additional and amplified layer of assumed political implications so it's even harder to have now. TL;DR we've learned nothing :D
0:37 Got so excited hearing Matt pronounce "short-lived" correctly!!! What a nerd! 2:37 Matt just used my favorite word: ineffable. I think I'm in love!
I like playing a Spymaster or Tactician. I kinda like the RP of that, but I can understand when people in my group don't care about that sort of thing. It's okay. This is actually part of the social contract and "setting expectations" stage where we define what we expect from the game. If other players care about faction play, I would totally be up for that. I really don't care that much for predefined dungeons and stuff, so yes.
1:25:00 I can't speak for the older editions of Traveller (some of which I've heard are more complex and voluminous), but the most recent iteration of "New Traveller" by Mongoose publishing seems quite accessible (speaking as someone completely new to the game). Certainly no graphing calculators required! Though, in general it does tend to lend itself to a more hard sci-fi setting.
I don't like Matt's DMing style, I disagree with him about lots of things, but he's such a charismatic speaker I can't help but listen to every talk with him :) Also Witcher racism is built on nationalism cleansings in eastern Europe, not on American racism. It should be weird for you :)
My favorite rpg systems to run are 5th edition D&D and Vampire: The Masquerade V20. I mostly play rpgs with my close friends, so I didn't realize there was this much elitism in some sects of the Vtm fan base, but I'm not surprised. On the other hand, The Gentleman Gamer, here on TH-cam, is a huge fan of VTM, but he respects a slew of other rpg systems as well.
This was good... :) Im glad this got addressed, that there's more to RPG's then just D&D... that you have the likes of Shadowrun, Star Wars by FFG, End of the World RPG, Savage Worlds, and so many others that offer different experiances in Roleplaying. Though, Matt, at 1:27:50 you said there aren't any aliens in Battlestar Galactica... did you mean the new one? Because there were aliens in the original... Putting aside the original Lizard Cylons, you had the bug-people (Ovions) in Saga of the Star Worlds, as well as the 2-faced humanoids, and the...whatever the Nomads were...cromag-looking dudes.
50 minutes in: I guess I'm the only person who learned D&D this way. I bought a ton of 3.5 D&D books (not even all at once) and just read them because I loved reading the rulebooks. I didn't have a group to play with, I just loved reading the books cover to cover, as if I was ever going to get to use them. Now I have a ton of Pathfinder books that I read that I haven't gotten to use.
What is the difference between a gm decided ruling with player buy in versus a game rule: a glorified blog article on dead tree. let people kitbash whatever they like, carving their scifi game w/ d&d stats, doesn't hurt anyone, as long as they are falling for the illusion. I personally take everything I read (nonfiction, fiction & rpg's) an push it into a rpg soup, an it is delicious. B-)
Hey I'm super new to this whole rpg thing and you mention a lot of cool sounding books/games. Do you think you could list a few of your favourites or at least the mention worthy?
Adam: Says one thing
Matt: Says opposing thing
Me: "I'm with you fellas."
Colville is such a fantastic orator. I could listen to him talk on any given subject for hours.
Saaaaame
good news! he has livestreams. I actually have listened to him talk about given subjects for hours
44:32-45:15 This is a big reason for this idea. If you close your eyes and ignore what he's saying, just listening to the vocal inflection he uses, we'll still get excited by the good sound storytelling, and I hope I can emulate that in the games I run
36:09 My favorite quote:
"I just hope that people understand that you don't have to try to find your fun inside this one edition of this one game that Matt Colville happens to love. There's a bunch of other nonsense out there."
Ah, it’s Evil Matt!
The King of Kickstarter
The Duke of Dm's.
TiaMatt
This dude Adam looks like a non-threatening viking.
I'll take it
That’s my new favorite description of Adam!
Soft Viking
That is an oxymoron.
@@PalleRasmussen only if you conflate story with narrative is he a threatening viking. Otherwise he's quite chill.
Conclusion of the conversation: Matt Mercer is such a sweetheart.
I could listen to these two chat it up all day. Love that they can actually debate and share opposing ideas, find common ground, and still respectfully share their opinions with us. Thanks fellas!
I'd pay good money for a podcast with these two.
This.
I would gladly tune in and watch future Koebel/Colville roundtables! Please!
I love the bromance, keep it up.
Yeah, they bash shit in the correct way.
the little bit of world/universe that Evolve teased was so amazing... wish they gave it a real single player campaign... bet Colville would have killed it :(
It's interesting to think Matt made his channel to make new Game Masters. I really only got interested in the game *to be* a Game Master.
I played 2 seasons to make sure I understood the rules, then took on the mantle. And I haven't taken it off since
I like when you say "we", it makes me feel included as silly as that is, and that's always a nice thing.
Well it doesn't feel like something I'm doing alone, so it makes sense!
The idea of rules as a shared language is interesting if extended a little bit beyond the metaphor Matt was going for - I think it literally becomes a language for people who have been immersed in it to easily communicate ideas that are less easy to communicate in every day language. Adam does this routinely if he's playing a game that the rule isn't from, or just talking about day to day life, when he says "Make a steel test", "Read a situation", "Failed a circles roll", etc. Game systems, like natural languages, have concepts that they care about enough to chunk into a single term, which then can be thought about and talked about much more easily.
This then plays into the idea of game as conversation, where everyone fluent in the language of the system can simply be describing the fiction to each other in the language of the rules. The difference between a conversation between fluent Burning Wheel speakers and an actual game becomes whether saying "Make a steel test" only communicates an idea, or also necessitates a dice roll, the results of which are incorporated into the fiction.
Dwarves and Elves in the Witcher are more like the analogue of Jews or Gypsies. Remeber, it's a setting based on Eastern Europe.
Thank you
and then u have clueless morons upset there is no diversity in the game. Because noone complained about the book. Morons upset about things dont read these.
@@xelloskaczor5051 ouch
@@xelloskaczor5051 hell yeah brother, these dipshits who think orc's are the same as black people
Than you! Adam's critique is a very americancentric (and for that very narrow) view of racism. Saying that there is no racism in europe, especially in eastern europe because "they are all white" is just ridiculous.
40:30 "I'm not a nerd, I like sports. Let me tell you the kicking average of my favourite team in every away game since 1982."
I love this. Everybody gets excited about Matt Mercer. But I love listening to these 2 beautiful minds.
“ ...3 hrs in the parking lot, I thought we stopped because we were tired?” Yes, Yes, YES! RPing!!!
Also... one good thing about being a GM, you are more likely to be able to find players AND you can usually ( at least after GMing them for a bit) play the games you want ( GURPs, Spacenaster, Twilight 2000, James Bond etc...)
... and I HAVE died in character creation in Traveller 😰
It was great watching this live on stream. Hope to see these two talk more. Would also be cool to see Adam talk with The Hankerin of Runehammer.
That might create a rip in the the space time continuum and result in us all being hurled into an alternate universe where Mike Mearls has a goatee and Chris Perkins has hair.
This new remake of Rush Hour sounds weird.
Adam Koebel If your looking for someone to disagree with, look no further than Hankerin! :) He's a very cool dude and I love his stuff but it seems like he very different ideas of what an RPG is supposed to be.
He loves Dungeon World though!
I second this!
I find Adam's remarks on bending rules to a setting interesting, because he's also the author of Dungeon World, which I played and though to myself that it's main issue is how it tries to make character-interaction-heavy, narrative-heavy, but combat-light rules of Apocalypse World work for what's essentially a classic dungeon delving game. It didn't really work for me, because I felt this disjoint every step of the way - BUT I did only play a single session with a bunch of people unfamiliar with the game, we might have been doing something wrong.
And still, it did a better job than another system I played lately which tried to adapt and even more lite, even more narrative-focused, very simple mechanic to a more tactical dungeon delving fare, which I thought just fell flat on its face because the moment you want to do something heroic-fantasy-like, the rules almost break on the spot.
Matt: "It's easy to be a DM."
Also Matt: Makes 100+ videos to teach us how to DM 😉
But thank you so much for making all those videos 😊
I think the full quote should be
Matt: It's easy to be a DM
Matt: You'll suck when you start
Matt: Makes 100+ videos to teach us how to DM
(You get really good as a DM)
Matt: I told you in my first video that it will be fun all the way!
@@Tabletop_Nonsenseverse legit 😁 he's helped me for sure..
I love Matt so much.
This is fascinating... this is the best RPGology discussion I've heard! Love these perspectives.
a conversation. a series.
I'm a huge Matt Colville fan and that's what's brought me here. I'm very impressed with you now as well. You really know your stuff. I've subbed and are looking forward to more great content.
I ran a campaign in which all the players were dragons. They started off as hatchlings and grew, established their lairs, and started to build their hoard. There was a world-changing plot arc that tied them all together, but it was mainly about being dragons. It was actually a really fun game.
Very interesting.
I would play that.
there was a whole 2e D&D box set about playing as dragons (council of wyrms)
Avalon Hill produced so many things that are still outright fundamental to board and wargames as we understand them today, it's kinda mind blowing.
Shame we won't get more videos like this with Adam.
I introduced myself. You introduced yourself. This was good conversation.
Good reference. Have a cookie.
I enjoyed this conversation. Hopefully they have more than Ken and Tom.
Matt colville turned me into a DM, so well done I guess.
Love the Nick Drake reference ("What, Pink Moon? Where have you been all my life?").
Listening to two epic nerds has never been this fun!
Man- this really sucks. I love your content, and this is one of the best examples. I already miss your work on youtube and twitch, and now I'm just trolling around old stuff because I'm a masochist, apparently. I hope you're well, and, for what it's worth, I'm sorry this happened to you.
not even talking about the topic but I feel like people need some terry pratchett and I have the perfect quote for the "Synths are people" thing:
"Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things." - Granny Weatherwax
Apockelipse sin is when you treat people as things, including yourself.
Pratchett quotes are always welcome
I love to read RPG books cover to cover. It's how I've learned D&D, FFG's Star Wars, M&M. I love it, but I'm a huge nerd. Also why I'm probably forever a GM...
hope you're alright adam, hang on in there man
The idea of having player and character morals have at least some overlap is really interesting.
I have a friend who really wanted to play a lizard person but could not handle the fact that they are Amoral. Immoral would be fine for her, but the idea of being amoral was something she knew she wouldn't be able to play.
She decided the reason her character is an outcast druid is because she was born with morals and the other lizards couldn't accept her.
Their conversation has the weirdest tone. They say completely opposite contradictory statements, nod their heads in agreement, then move on to the next topic. Is this truly what civilized discussion looks like? It's facinating.
The phrase I have once heard is that "You do not win the opinion of the other party as their opinion is set in stone. What you are truly aiming to achieve is to sway the opinion of the audience/Jury."
It's like Vaxxers vs anti-vaxxers, the prosecution vs the defence in court and so fourth. You aren't looking to convince the other side but rather you are aiming to convince the undecided, the people who don't have the same investment, such as the jury or members of the public. That is why politics in general is such an aggressive and stupid field as politicians will regularly defend what they know isn't right or true, they merely want people to vote for them at an election and present eachother like child murdering demons, when each likely have a graveyard in their closet.
Which is why I really like this discussion. They both have different point of views that they recongise they can't necessarily agree on or employ personally, but they both recognise that each have perfectly valid points. They are only interested in allowing other tables finding their own view that fit them.
@@lordbiscuitthetossable5352 I'd rather have a dicussion where they lay out their point instead of blindly nodding and agreeing, I don't learn from people telling me:run it how you want.
No tell me what X does compared to Y so I can understand what these methods do and how differentciate
I agree completely with the difference between the game and the fantasy. Critical Role is awesome fun to watch and all of the players seem to genuinely be having fun telling the stories and dramas that they do, but more than half of what makes that show entertaining is that they are all professional entertainers who love their job, not your average person playing a roleplaying game. For them, D&D gives them just enough framework for their honed and honest creativity to flourish, but for others there is very little there for anything but killing monsters and exploration. Like you both said, that's not a bad thing, but to pretend like it's a universal system is.
I always wondered how other people played roleplaying games. The group I've been with for the past few years loves RP so we've actually been playing in a rather similar fashion to all those shows.
Okat Yeah it's great if you play with a group that can do that well enough to have fun! I used to play with a bunch of theater buddies in a similar way. But I think that this is why people call Critical Role a bad example. They suddenly expect that playing D&D should be like being in a dramatic TV show and it's not unless you can make it that. There are better games for that.
It's not that far off from my experience of my average groups in this stage of my adult life. Course they do it which voice acting and acting experience and routine, but playing with people that do community acting, that are small time professional writers, work at production companies, are creative graphical artists, that are long time Nordic LARPing veterans, and just experienced roleplayers and that's pretty much how sessions are, just a little bit toned down and less focused as there's no production, no audience to take into account.
Just as anything you do in your life, you gey better when you dedicate more time to do it. If you just kill monster, you will be really good killing monsters, if you rolpley, you will improve in roleplaying
I would love to see more of this, looking forward to check out more stuff on this channel
Not only my two favorite D&D guys on TH-cam, but the only two guys I can watch/listen to.
Matt has read the Belgariad and uses the red gold in his game. I think that is what hooked me at first. I feel similarly about Nerdarchy when they bring up Dragon Lance.
This was great. I could listen to these two prattle on for hours.
Loved the chat. Really good. Would love to see these guys interact more.
I would hate that alternate universe where D&D didn't exist and we were all listening to Moby. But it cracked me up!
I finally understand Bladerunner. Glad i got quarantine bored and watched this old content.
Listening to both of these guys quite a bit, I know that they disagree on a whole lot but are so polite to each other as to not say 'I think you're wrong about that.' I guess in the end its a conversation and not a debate. Still a good watch.
I'm not even sure what we disagree on. I don't think of Gygax as condescending. In fact, the opposite. But I also think it depends on when he was writing. But apart from that I think we see the world the same way.
do you? do we? what, exactly, do we disagree on?
I wouldn't call anything in this session a disagreement between either of you. If anything, it is parallel thought reaching the similar conclusions from different points of view. There were times where things 'could have been' a disagreement but, well, ultimately you agreed. You just got to that point differently. Which is 100% a-okay, but to a lot of people in today's cultural climate that seems or 'feels' like a disagreement... because you don't identify with the same thought process. It goes back to the point you both made about "faction identity". It also taps into the global problem, we think of it as sort of a distinctly American (Greater America... as in Canada, Mexico, South America, and etc) but is much more a human problem, of Tribalism. My tribe thinks this way, so it is right and you are wrong for thinking differently... even if we agree.
/rant
You know, when people used to argue, long before we skew are views with TV and other media to tell us the "proper" way to disagree, people would explain why they disagree, make points to what would be the differing viewpoints, and then let the other side retort. It is a bit more productive. I am not saying there weren't heated debates and angry arguing (in fact, mud slinging in elections in the 1800's was much more demonstrative compared to today), but it didn't have to be all the time.
love the open dialogue of d&d. love the concept of strongholds and wars. using the rules as the language to communicate. I'm working on guild masters guide to ravinia. to cover the 3 pillars of play but expand the concepts of being a hero and work with factions/allies
You guys make some deep frigging cuts in this conversation. Harn, Traveller, Pendragon... dang!
Man, I need a weekly podcast of you two discussing things. idc if episode 37 of the KoeVille Podcast is the appropriate skill checks to make a peanut butter sandwich, i'd watch it.
The Sentry Box in Calgary? I think Adam may have sold me Magic cards and discontinued Car Wars books.
That’s the one!
Almost 44 minutes before Burning Wheel got mentioned! (And even then just a mention!) Some kind of record? ;)
do we need to drink a shot?
in sam elliott voice "what the fuck is a burning wheel?"
Definitely more Burning Wheel!
I like this kind of video. Please make more videos like this where you discuss and share ideas with other people who are both interesting and offer insightful perspective. Love Matt, but I also love what you bring to the table in the discussion, and would love to see more of this with other people as well.
"If it didn't matter what the rules say and you could just make stuff up... you'd end up with a bunch of unhappy players because they would never really know 'how is the DM going to rule on this?' Because he's constantly just making it up." I've played in that campaign, and you're 100% right, Matt.
It's interesting that they talk about the distinction between narrative and story...it reminds me of the current fashion in video game design, to focus on environmental storytelling and emergent narrative. That's so much of what all RPGs are about, particularly D&D--it's about emergent narrative. The story that emerges from the experience you have playing the game. The story that you share with others who play the game. This is why games like Minecraft and No Man's Sky developed such a strong fanbase even before they had any kind of quest or plot system added. It was all emergent narrative and environmental storytelling.
I will say that I personally really liked reading through the Dresden Files RPG and the way it was written in character, but I can see how other people might not care for such a thing, and it probably makes it a poorer reference material. I will say that possibly one advantage it has is that it give you an idea of what the world and characters are like in a way that's more digestible than the White Wolf's "stick a bunch of prose in before you can even get to the actual game part" approach.
KadzarTathram I feel like you have to be a diehard Dresden fan to really enjoy the way they did the RPG books. I loved it, but I can see how it might not work for the average gamer.
My introduction to roleplaying games was Dark Heresy. But after that, it was (no joke) sitting down over a week during summer holidays and reading all three core books for AD&D2nd edition cover to cover twice.
This video reminds how much I love Tenra Bansho Zero and Ryuutama.
TBZ is very much a high action, kung-fu, storytelling game. You have prologues, acts, and the most of the games can be finished in a night. The action is fast-paced and feels good. No one I know really likes to play it because the game is more about one-shots, because if your campaign goes longer than a few nights, it's easy to God mode your character if you use the system to min/max.
Ryuutama is all about storytelling. Simplistic rules for combat because most of the rules are geared towards over world travel. Players keep a physical journal about their characters' journey and are awarded exp for it. It's player vs natural environment, sickness, injury during pilgrimage the players are making.
I don't know that Matt will ever see this but if anyone else wants Traveller-style business sci-fi Stars Without Number has a supplement called 'Suns of Gold' that adds the accounting back into SWN to make it more like Traveller.
Eric Baldwin Adam did just recently do a video with a designer of the system.
Re: Vampire 5e.
Yeah, if you listen to Martin Ericsson, he's kind of pretentious. I mean, his title is "Lead Storyteller".
But if you listen to Kenneth Hite, who's writing the actual game mechanics, you can get a more hopeful impression.
This was awesome - and super looking forward to more of this and possible Tabletop Weekly Podcast appearances by both :D
greatly enjoyed it. This was very informative and a great time. I did not expect this but damn, you two have some pretty awesome chemistry.
Would love to see more of it.
I believe one of the things that cause people to say a D&D game when someone talks about RPG also has to do with popularity redefining a term. Kind of like Band Aids aren't band aids. Vice Grips aren't vice grips. iPad isn't an ipad. The popular brand name takes over sometimes.
For those that want Dune the board game, I think "Rex" by FFG is a reskin of the game after they lost the license .
The problem with Rex is that what makes Dune good is the connection between the rules and the narrative objects. Stripping the Dune away makes the game not work nearly as well.
Fantastic discussion guys! It was totally reminiscent of my college rpg group chitchat
Luke Crane would be a cool chat to see I think.
I wish Colville could voiceover my lectures
Ya know, I watched this whole thing live.
But i wanna watch it again :D
Loved it as a youtube vid. I could listen to Colville talk about anything, I'm coming to realize. Skinnyghost is insightful as ever, I dream of a series like Running the Game with these two collaborating together. Maybe get Mercer in there too when he's not busy designing D&D 6th Ed...
Enjoyed this!!! Thank you both for such an interesting conversation.
The discussion on "Story games" and mechanics-supporting-narrative-structure/tropes was inspiring.
I remember someone (don't remember who) on The Forge saying "if you want to be a writer, write, don't design RPGs." Paraphrasing a bit.
Fascinating discussion. Thanks, guys. Really like hearing these design discussions. I was surprised that you didn't talk more about Apocalypse World when you were talking about authorial voice.
I think mainly because I’m more versed in it. I wanted to talk about games we both knew!
IC. Anyway, I've only got time for one RPG at a time, so I really appreciate this kind of comprehensive discussion/comparison.
I associate the one and only rule with basic roleplaying in the early 80s, and titles inspired by it during that time, that the system mechanisms, the setting material, even the dice rolls, are to suggest and inspire your entertainment not to hinder or to force it, they're the introductions for your creativity to take over, much like the design space you talk about, to open the door, to present the space but never to claim it.
That along with the trust and power dynamic of the players and their chosen game master, always playing to entertain each other and not abusing the opportunity to inflict the personal power fantasy unto the group and the goal of a roleplaying game everyone's mutual entertainment.
A system mechanism, or a set there of, are only as good as the inspiration it grants, as the picture it paints, as the setting it supports, as the paradigm it sets.
There's only one rule, the rest are suggested system mechanisms that usually comes in as a published product, the game is not the product, the game is the group, the group decides to play a roleplaying game, then they add the flavors and some of that comes in the prepackaged form of published titles and some times those titles are full of bad and poorly written suggestions.
my dm dad and my dm husband talking WITHOUT me??? i feel betrayed
About the last bit of the vid, you guys basically talked about specism.
Rule zero compromise:
Rule zero is a brilliant rule for the host. The host should always presume they can come up with something better for their table than the game designer. In a world with not enough rule zero for the host, every campaign would start with the example characters taking on the example campaign.
Rule zero is a horrible rule for the game designer. The game designer should always presume they can put something in the book better than what the host will come up with. In a world with too much rule zero for the game designer, every game of D&D or World of Darkness would be impossible to discuss with people outside the game, because you'd have no shared assumptions and would have to detail basic concepts, like whether you're using levels or skill points.
When this model is followed? The table has multiple options for each decision they feel they need to make. When rule zero is embraced by the designer and shunned by the host? The table has zero options, or perhaps one piss-poor one that the designer was sure the host would feel the need to improve on.
wtf this shaming of battle star galactic!! ITS EPIC
The Rules Cyclopedia is the best single D&D product one can buy...
Got a chuckle out of the "you can't read an RPG book cover to cover, it is impossible" bit. That's the only way I take a game on-board and it's not hard, at all. Then again, I am also an old-school grognard wargamer, where learning ALL the rules before playing is a must :)
Berk is not considered that rude in England. It was even used in the children's show "trap door" when I was growing up as the name of the main character. Mind you there was also another show with characters called "Seaman Staines" and "Master Bates".
This is a conversation that should be heard around the world!
This was really pleasant and inspiring. I'd absolutely love to have a faction game with hundreds of users like that.
In regards to Traveller From the designer Marc Miller:
"Traveller was most influenced by the “Dumarest Saga” books…"
"When Mr. Miller designed Traveller, he intended it to be a generic sci-fi roleplaying game system, in which we could play any science fiction game we wanted. The Third Imperium setting came later."
"I have stated from the start of Traveller: Out of the Box series that I believe Classic Traveller works-and works great-as is and without needing to be “fixed” or “improved.”
"Traveller is a levelless system: characters may get better, but they don’t level up; they improve in skills, but at a cost in age. They also don’t all start as young adults: the character pre-generation lets everyone build an experienced character. They question how experienced can they get. When we first started playing (and testing), many players were creating experienced retirees with loads of skills and loads of money. I had an intuitive understanding that there had to be some risk they faced in this pre-generation system, and I added the chance that they could die. People still argue about whether that’s right. "
"While playing Traveller, Marc role-plays. Very little rules. Traveller is truly a rules-light game system once you start playing. For our scenario, we generated characters by only rolling up stats. No skills. Just stats and pick your service. All rolls were made against those stats, but you couldn’t roll against the same stat again, until you had used them all. Oh, and you had to support your decision on which stat to use. After that, it was all role playing. Creating a communal story. He made it up as he went along, allowed us to build the story, and acted as “referee” just as intended. After we were through, he said “There. Now you know how I play Traveller.”
"Each edition of Traveller appeals to its own particular type of player. The older editions continue to be available for the players who played them once upon a time and have fond memories of that material. I am talking about more than just the GDW editions: some players prefer HERO, or GURPS, or D20, and there are editions for them. But for someone new to Traveller, there are (in my mind) two choices: Traveller5 or Mongoose. I think either one will ultimately bring that player to the other, and the confluence of the two will add to their enjoyment."
It's too bad all the super special live-steam exclusive parts aren't included in this video :P
It’s true. All the big reveals and secret content we seamlessly edited out.
Adam, your editing skills are second to none.
WHAT IS THE JOKE HERE?!
Matt Colville joked about it on twitter.
You cut ALL THREE of the special guests!
There's always a few exceptions to the rules :) my group decided we wanted to play but none of us knew the rules or anyone else who did. So I picked up the rulebook and read it cover to cover several times before running a session. I learnt a lot when twitch happened and there were a load of DMs to watch so thanks to their inspiration I became a better DM
Awww I love listening to these two talk! The nicest & smartest boys! (I'm not being sarcastic, I think communicating to each other in blocks of texts that preclude the possibility of nonverbal cues is a really big hurdle to having discussions in sincerity & good faith. Even if memes can help at times for demonstrating in-group affection)
The biggest thing that I find with Dungeons and Dragons is that for most perceivable gaps in play styles & procedures pertinent to the setting, there are a lot of forgotten "legacy tools" that can be found in earlier editions of the game but they've been rendered redundant, hand-wavy or meaningless in the wake of late 2nd edition AD&D and 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons, which I think still represents a very radical shift in the philosophy of how "the game" was designed and is approached by players even to this day.
That is not to say that an "old-school" game is impossible in 3rd ed (rulings vs rules, tracking torches, rations, hex movement, asymmetric encounters where combat is the failure state & out of the box thinking is necessary) but a game like that will flourish in spite of the rules and not because of them. As written, 5e still very much does not lend itself to this style of play (despite the fact that it is more easily hacked) and house rules concerning hexcrawling, stronghold play & mass combat often tend to favor an over-reliance of rules abstractions via skill-check funnels over player character choice instead of procedures that give rise to emergent situations that demand player character attention and engagement.
That being said, I think really crunchy games like 2nd ed AD&D and 3rd edition D&D were at least partially reactions against the excesses of the old-school approach. Impartial adjudication, inconsistent rulings & the narrative of encounter resolution devolving into a game of "Mother may I?".
I also want to mention that while White Wolf elitism is inexcusable, I really think that a lot of it stems from the fact that the old-guard of gaming and its adherents can & could be ridiculously elitist, exclusionary & loathsome to new players that didn't immediately grok & agree with their approach. We're still having this conversation but now it has an additional and amplified layer of assumed political implications so it's even harder to have now.
TL;DR we've learned nothing :D
0:37 Got so excited hearing Matt pronounce "short-lived" correctly!!! What a nerd! 2:37 Matt just used my favorite word: ineffable. I think I'm in love!
So enjoyable. Do it again!
Take a shot every time they mention a different game...good luck.
I like playing a Spymaster or Tactician. I kinda like the RP of that, but I can understand when people in my group don't care about that sort of thing. It's okay. This is actually part of the social contract and "setting expectations" stage where we define what we expect from the game. If other players care about faction play, I would totally be up for that. I really don't care that much for predefined dungeons and stuff, so yes.
1:25:00 I can't speak for the older editions of Traveller (some of which I've heard are more complex and voluminous), but the most recent iteration of "New Traveller" by Mongoose publishing seems quite accessible (speaking as someone completely new to the game). Certainly no graphing calculators required! Though, in general it does tend to lend itself to a more hard sci-fi setting.
This needs to happen monthly, bi-monthly at the least.
42:46 - Matt Colville mentions something called Pink Moon, but I can't find anything about the game. What is it?
Pink Moon is a Nick Drake album so it was just part of his analogy
I don't like Matt's DMing style, I disagree with him about lots of things, but he's such a charismatic speaker I can't help but listen to every talk with him :)
Also Witcher racism is built on nationalism cleansings in eastern Europe, not on American racism. It should be weird for you :)
Yeah that part is weird, it so wrird to see people denounce rasicm but also turn around and complain about whites
My favorite rpg systems to run are 5th edition D&D and Vampire: The Masquerade V20. I mostly play rpgs with my close friends, so I didn't realize there was this much elitism in some sects of the Vtm fan base, but I'm not surprised. On the other hand, The Gentleman Gamer, here on TH-cam, is a huge fan of VTM, but he respects a slew of other rpg systems as well.
This was good... :)
Im glad this got addressed, that there's more to RPG's then just D&D... that you have the likes of Shadowrun, Star Wars by FFG, End of the World RPG, Savage Worlds, and so many others that offer different experiances in Roleplaying.
Though, Matt, at 1:27:50 you said there aren't any aliens in Battlestar Galactica... did you mean the new one? Because there were aliens in the original... Putting aside the original Lizard Cylons, you had the bug-people (Ovions) in Saga of the Star Worlds, as well as the 2-faced humanoids, and the...whatever the Nomads were...cromag-looking dudes.
50 minutes in: I guess I'm the only person who learned D&D this way. I bought a ton of 3.5 D&D books (not even all at once) and just read them because I loved reading the rulebooks. I didn't have a group to play with, I just loved reading the books cover to cover, as if I was ever going to get to use them. Now I have a ton of Pathfinder books that I read that I haven't gotten to use.
What is the difference between a gm decided ruling with player buy in versus a game rule: a glorified blog article on dead tree. let people kitbash whatever they like, carving their scifi game w/ d&d stats, doesn't hurt anyone, as long as they are falling for the illusion.
I personally take everything I read (nonfiction, fiction & rpg's) an push it into a rpg soup, an it is delicious. B-)
I would love to hear more discussion of nobilis specifically. I always found its design fascinating.
Hey I'm super new to this whole rpg thing and you mention a lot of cool sounding books/games. Do you think you could list a few of your favourites or at least the mention worthy?