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Do they have a NON LATEX version? Anaphylaxis is unsympathetic to my general comfort and sleep quality. Every single thing about the mattress sounds ah-mazing!
Absolutely, studios and media expect us to go: "Woaaaah, she's so commited to the role", when an interview comes out about an actress being in pain because of her corset, instead of going: "Yeah, million dollar company couldn't spend a little more to get her a costume that actually fits her. Great."
If we can get across the point that corset torture is a sign of both lazy storytelling and generally awful working conditions (and not just for the corseted actresses), it might change.
@@ragnkja Well, when Emma Watson refused to wear a corset (some news outlets said it was in her contract) under her prom dress thingy in Beauty and the Beast no one said: Disney, spend a little more money and get her a corset that actually fits, and instead raged against Watson herself for not SUFFERING for her CRAFT! So, I'm not optimistic yet.
@@rankushrenada Yeah, it’s not a good sign when that’s the response to an actresses basically saying “I don’t trust them to put me in a corset and not make it painful and/or do a torture corn tightlacing scene.”
And, IIRC, even her refusal to wear one was framed from the perspective of "either they are torture or they are no big deal". Which is missing most of the important nuances.
@@rankushrenada I think people mocked Miss Watson not for refusing to "suffer" for her craft, but because her reasons were silly and unrealistic. it was more a spoiled little girl snarking against clothing of the past than wearing period correct clothing.
I'd love to see a subversive corset scene where the person getting laced up looks uncomfortable for a couple seconds, then they either go, "oh, this isn't mine, this is my sister's!" and they put the one on that actually fits, or if someone is lacing them up, the person notices the discomfort and does the humane thing of making sure the wearer is comfortable. I love witnessing little glimpses of empathy and care for other people-or at least people being accommodating enough not to intentionally case harm. But maybe I'm just a romantic!
A great idea especially if it’s to portray female relationships as a thing in and of itself and not how ithe female character/relationships relates to the male protagonist.
@@yalissa73 YES, absolutely! Just a random interaction that has nothing to do with the main plot, but something that would (presumably) be far more authentic to how people in past times behave during something as mundane as dressing than to make it seem like every morning is a physical battle against the upper body. But as our snappiest dragon friend has pointed out, that wouldn't be titillating enough and it wouldn't get general audiences' attention, sadly... Sigh. I just love the idea of normalizing people being kind, no matter the era. (I'm a lesbian and it's kind of funny because the idea of there being a male protagonist-or, indeed, any men in the story, except maybe family members-didn't even occur to me! I was only thinking of abstract patriarchal concepts influencing the plot... because I'm clueless as fuck, apparently!)
@@SnappyDragon That would be so lovely! Imagine a time traveler trying to lace up a corset in the way movies usually portray it and the others in the room are like, "Um... You don't have to do it so tight! Let me show you how I do it. We don't want you to hurt yourself! How will you do any dancing if you're so uncomfortable?" Not all support must come from corsets alone, friendship too can hold up the bust! Or something like that-the metaphor may have gotten a bit away from me there.
Instead of the corset torture scene, future period dramas will feature the scene where the actors jump, roll around, and generally struggle to get into their Spanx.
I wish corset-lacing scenes would be portrayed as a mundane part of life in past eras rather than a metaphor of patriarchal oppression. Sadly, there are very few movies and TV shows that portray corsets in a more positive light.
Especially because corsets and other undergarments allowed people to achieve the fashionable style using their clothing, unlike today where you're expected to change your actual body using far more dangerous and permanent methods than corsetry.
I am very much here for this! Discovery of Witches did reasonably well which is why I included the clip, and Gentleman Jack has a great little mundane corset lacing clip in their intro too.
I was gonna reply Imagine giving bras the same Treatment buuuuut then i remembered that the present really Likes to dunk on underwire bras instead of cheap manufacturing and ill fit and pretending that everyone will be comfortable in a bralette (end of busty Lady rant )
@@annabeinglazy5580 As a busty lady, some of the most comfortable bras I own are wireless ones. I do however have a few underwire ones that are just as comfy. I particular like vintage 1950s-1960s style bullet bras because they tend to be well-structured without always needing underwire and provide more coverage for my very round girls, not to mention making them look perkier than they really are!
@@annabeinglazy5580 Mass-manufactured underwire bras don’t fit me because they’re too symmetrical. I have no doubt that if I could get _any_ type of support garment fitted to my body, taking those tiny but important asymmetries into account, I’d be a lot more comfortable than I am in my current high-quality bras that don’t quite fit right.
Whenever I see people in this community talk about why actresses may find corsets so unpleasant to wear the view tends to be that the corset isn't properly fitted and broken in. Sure, that's probably part of the problem. But I never see anyone talk about the fact the film industry cares far more about the appearance of actresses than about their comfort or their health. What currently attractive? The smallest waist possible which means that these women are almost certainly being tight laced into them. After all, everyone knows that what a corset if for. Thank you for putting human modern context on something so often view with objective academia that makes the past more important than individual people.
While the perspective that the actresses are made to suffer completely needlessly _is_ discussed, there isn’t nearly enough focus on _why_ they’re put through it. I find it telling that stage actresses can be so comfortable in their corsets as long as the costumes fit, but movie actresses are made to “suffer for their art”.
Let's face it, the film industry likes their actresses starvation skinny so I don't think they care at all about their physical well being in the slightest
This is exactly the point I wanted to make! I see far too much corset discourse getting very absolute, either corsets were torture or anyone not comfortable in a corset is doing something wrong. Realistically I care a lot more about the expectation that someone would suffer through a painful corset than the corset itself.
Yes, the culture in the entertainment industry is fat phobic, except in rare (almost always tokenistic) cases. So if they want to make an hourglass figure on an actress who has no fat to squish (because almost skeletal is the norm in Hollywood) and they are afraid of padding her hips or bust in case she looks 'fat' there's no option but to tightlace in a way that would cause pain. Honestly Is suspect that culture is so ingrained that the actresses would be unhappy about the idea of making their backside or hips look larger with padding.
I never thought of it before but boy howdy does our society glamourize pain for beauty. It is quite unsettling that we even do it to the past. I hope the future drags us. Let them call us out for using surgery and extreme diets to alter ourselves instead of using mere undergarments like our forebearers. The fact people use botox to paralyze their faces so they wont have wrinkles is far more disturbing than a corset.
I feel like in most modern versions of the corset torture scene it is just used as lazy visual shorthand to show how modern and relatable the heroine is in comparison to the backwards society she lives in. It leans much more on the "I am so superior to those people in the past" ego boost you mentioned than on the corsets are sexy trope. Bonus points if the "not like other girls" female lead gets to rip off her corset to show how she rejects the sexism of the past. The trope is at best a tired cliché at this point, but it has become so pervasive that people actually find its absence more unrealistic than its presence. I made a pair of 18th century stays last year, and I was showing them off to my mom's friends. They were all convinced that I had to be in incredible amounts of pain wearing them, because corsets in movies were always painful. I kept on telling them that other than being a little warm, I was absolutely fine. This did not compute.
I would also love for the "not like other girls" trope to go die in a corner too!
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It's similar to when a character in the story is Scottish and then writers just put them in a kilt, problem solved, instead of actually writing the character (perhaps doing like 10mins research in the library or YT). Sometimes it's not even a full kilt but just a vaguely tartan-y skirt the character will wear even in their sleep. It's not only lazy but also insulting, because in both cases the creators assume that the viewers are too dumb to understand details or storylines.
Future generations will probably be shaking their heads at the sheer amount of polyester everyone wore on the 21st century, and presuming we were all sweaty and stinking all the time.
@@SnappyDragon That future is here in some countries, at least if you're okay with avoiding certain cuts altogether. Shiny looking sheer dresses- almost certainly polyester. The only thing I really struggle with is sweaters and similar thick garments which is acrylic yarn all over the place! Ugh
I think Harlots has a scene where Betsy and Violet are helping each other lace into their stays as just a casual girls getting ready for the day thing, which is doubly nice because sex workers are so rarely allowed to be anything but tragic or sex objects in other media. If memory serves, that's also the scene where Violet says they should "stab the bitch through the eyeballs" in regards to the abusive bawd Lydia Quigley.
@@SnappyDragon it's one of my favorites ^-^ the history of sex work has always been an intense special interest of mine and it's portrayed so matter-of-factly in the show
@@seraphinasullivan4849 There's also a scene in the movie "In the Good Old Summertime" where Judy Garland's character is wearing a corset while getting ready for a date with her secret admirer pen pal kind of person whose identity she doesn't find out until the end of the movie. No torturous corset-lacing scene à la Meet Me in St. Louis (another Judy Garland film shown at 7:22 in this video), just getting ready for a night out.
Tight lacing scenes aside, i do think we need to push really hard for foundations to be done properly for the comfort of the actresses involved. Because if you are getting blisters because the wardrobe dept didn't have brains enough to put a freaking under layer under the corset that is NOT OK!
Absolutely! And I'm not sure it's even the fault of the wardrobe departments. The impression I've gotten are that it's often directors/producers/writers making these calls regardless of whether wardrobe could do right by the actors.
I'd love something in which a modern woman goes back in time, and in the inevitable corset scene discovers that it's actually really comfortable when properly fitted and worn.
The Rise and Fall of D.O.D.O. by Neal Stephenson and Nicole Galland has a time traveler suffering from wearing borrowed stays/corsets because she can't afford to have ones made for her.
I think in general there's a lot of room to have fun with time travel stories that show that things that stereotypically sucked about the past actually weren't that bad, but also the things that *did* suck often aren't things that modern people might expect.
as someone who wears corsets regularly (things that hang off my waist make me sick, so I wear a corset under things like skirts because it's waaay more comfortable than a waistband) the amount of asnine comments I get when people find out is unbelievable. Like "why would you wear something like that, doesn't it hurt?!" Do you... really think I would wear something that hurts me regularly? Like come on, use your brain.
Well since most women where a bra that doesn't fit properly and is painful... yes, it actually is plausible that you would wear a corset regardless of the level of comfort/discomfort.
I wonder what the future generations are going say about us. I remember in the 90's when "painting on" your jeans was a thing. Wearing your jeans tao sizes too small. What will then future say about breast implants? Or butt? Or talk about the use of botox? Or just the use of surgery in general to modify our bodies? Strange how we have supposedly come so far from the the people in the past and look do an hour noses at them yet today we mutilate our bodies in the name of beauty through dangerous surgeries.
Same impossible standards, different technology. Which is why I'd love to see the focus go past the corsets (or jeans, or whatever else) and onto the standards!
The evolution of an ideal female body over the decades, even the centuries, is pretty actually fascinating! From the petite wasplike waists in the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries, to the boy like waifs of the “Roaring Twenties” , the bullet bra look of the 30’s and 40’s, to even today’s ideal of voluptuous curves, a narrow waist and a noticeable thigh gap. What will the future bring? Only time will tell!
one of the things that has frustrated me in the past with the corset hot takes, and it's very refreshing to see someone talk about these scenes without doing this, is how quick folks were to blame the actresses instead of the film makers. I think that's also part of why the industry hasn't gotten the backlash that would stop these scenes and the pain they put actresses through. Instead of rightly blaming the costume department and director for tightlacing an actresses, fashion historians reacted with "how dare this actresses say corsets are uncomfortable! She's wrong!"
I'm extra sympathetic because I've been in well-constructed corsets that were painful due to poor fitting, *and* been expected to wear them anyways by a production. If it's happening at the volunteer theater level, I can only imagine how that pressure increases for these shows!
I was low key impressed that, in The Gilded Age, not only did they represent corsetry as nothing except the "unmentionables" (ie not even worth mentioning in a specific scene), but also making sure they were worn appropriately over a chemise. 👏👏👏 Well done HBO and how surprising.
In her video The Problem With Method Acting, Broey Deschanel makes the argument that star male actors use the current version of method acting to prove that their acting is masculine and therefore valid. The suffering then undergo to get into character does not objectively produce better acting and is not available to women, people of colour or non star actors as it is socially disruptive and costs time and effort not visible on screen. Women who emphasise their suffering on set might be also suggesting that their acting is more valid as their suffering replicates the historical reality. Even though we history nerds know that implication is invalid.
I have been watching the 'curvy brides' and it just blows the girls minds that feel so dowdy in plus size clothing how comfortable having support is in a well made corseted garment and that they have lovely figures too.
This also has me thinking of the potential of painful tightlacing scenes to be used as less of an "ouchie! poor girl!" thing and more a "pain tolerance is badass and sexy" thing. Possibly even foreshadowing the character having to stitch up or cauterize her own wound and it clearly hurts but she's being all stoic action hero about it. Not sure to what extent that would actually help the "corsets weren't supposed to be painful" cause or the "we should stop weirdly sexualizing women's pain" cause, but it could be a cool subversion of a tired trope.
I'd love to see it going in the direction of corsets-as-back/posture-support. Maybe she can lift heavier things because her corset supports her, or has great posture/form without as much training as her male counterparts?
I believe there was a time when some guy complained that corsets made the female body all hard and armoured and how unfeminine that was. I want to see a scene in which a lady puts on a corset and her outer garments like a knight puts on his plate, and then grabs her parasol and marches into battle. :D (Metaphorical battle. Real battle would probably be difficult in a dress, unless you're wearing a cycling costume or something like that.)
@@johannageisel5390 in my own writing i've had fantasy setting with corsetry as part of women's fashion, specifically to note that this or that female character who's earned some enemies and expects them to attack when they get half a chance has prepared by stitching some form of light armor onto her corset. They'd layer over it so no one could tell they were armored in anyway.
I love how you always include plenty of references to primary sources and various examples that both illustrate your point or provide different counterpoints. It makes for a much more nuanced overview than a lot of video opinion essays I’ve seen.
Don't forget: drag could potentially be a high fashion choice down the road. I've seen how much effort those performers put into it, and it's very similar to all the pomp and time and care of the victorian's.
One of my favorite things in research is finding proof that these so called "weird trends" in past centuries were really just "adult activity" content written with dubious quality (sometimes noticibly one handed 😂). Content that then goes on to be presented as Facts à la a certain history channel that calls its self *weird*. Also, watching the trends change in such adult entertainment is its' own kind of fascinating. We frequently don't talk about "corn" except maybe in jokes, but studying it overall has some merit in understanding how intimate life, cultural worries, and taboos were changing through the decades/centuries. (Did I keep it all TH-cam advertiser friendly? 😂😂😂)
Back in the early 80s when I moved out west my friends gave me a book called "the erotic art of the masters " it was a fabulous book for costumers because everyone was half undressed. But it very much showed the historical "corn" play. It also included the far East. I doubt the Mongolian corn of doing it on a galloping horse while she is standing on her head will ever come into fashion again.
didn't men wear corsets historically too? Like in the french court at one point, I think. How come there's no torture porn of a guy getting unreasonably tightalced?
Because the men who wore corsets did so against a social norm and therefore it was by choice (so can't do the forced trope, even though we know women weren't really forced). So wouldn't make for great torture porn. Though also worth considering that their masculinity was frequently called into question (called fops and dandies) as was their sexuality. So when satiricalised, they were basically called effeminate which has long been code for gay. Then if you look at some of the Victorian era documents about male corset wearers outside of the adverts for sports & military wear, they're very much of the "I was sent to a boarding school in some European country that I wasn't born in and whilst there was forced into tight corsets and was also made to wear maids outfits and forced to clean". AKA sissyfication fetish. Submitted to ladies magazines. Its highly doubtful those are anything other than stories, but still worth mentioning as its definitely possible men roleplayed it. Even if Hollywood/other media producers knew of the various kinds of men who chose to wear corsets historically, they simply wouldn't want to show that because either they'd still be perceived as gay and we all know just how inclusive media is to LGBTQIA+ (they're not really there yet) or they wouldn't show it as it would be way too much of a fetish to be put on mainstream TV in a lighthearted period drama.
Yes. And unlike women’s corsets, which were supportive garments, for men they were shape wear. They were made to change their bodies. King Henry the 8th took 2 hours getting ready. His wives took just under an hour. And that was with a bath and hair
I'm a student for fashion design. In my classes, I often have to liste to my teachers and collegues talk about "how corsets were terrible and painful" (they don' have propper historical education), but, they are also very fine with the idea of modern thitgh lacing; I made a corset for myself, following an 1880s pattern and instructions, and they've tolde me it was "to week to thigth lace into it".
Now that I see the connection between the torture scenes and (male gaze-y) erotic titillation I can't unsee it. I love The Alienist in many ways, for example, but it too is an offender with tight-lacing scenes galore. So that one scene from A Discovery of Witches was a wonderful corrective. I'm reminded now of virtually any interview with (say) Dita Von Teese. It is almost inevitable that the subject of her corset collection comes up. You can almost sense the reporter's glee: "Doesn't it hurt?" Oof.
@@SnappyDragon It is wild. I think the one time this sense of creeptastic voyeurism doesn't enter the conversation is in the interview she did with Simon Doonan for his book Eccentric Glamour, although she readily admits to owning corsets that are literally meant to be crawled in.
I loved Pirates of the Caribbean when it came out, but as she got cooler in later movies, I couldn't remember why I didn't like Elizabeth at first. I think it was the corset (stays in her case) scene... Like. Girl, you wear this every day. Adjust your bust and be grateful for the back support. Le sigh.
The thing I hated about that scene after I learnt about stays and corsets, is the fact that they seem to be showing her needing to wear the stays for the first time ever when she gets that dress from her dad. Him saying its the latest fashion in London (or wherever he said. My mind making me pause on if that's correct) and her saying that the women in London must've learnt not to breathe. But in reality she would have been wearing stays long before then!😭 That's the thing I hate about learning fashion history. It kills most things I used to love in movies/shows or makes me dislike those shows because they didn't do the bare minimum of research and accuracy. 😩
Yeah there is so much wrong with the context of that scene. It is certainly possible to lace uncomfortably tight in stays, but everything surrounding it was just not lining up.
For some odd reason before I knew about stays and watched historians I just assumed he's a single dad of fortune but hee seams like a silly air head and doesn't know his daughters size so they had to stuff her into it
I used to be mad about that until I watched it recently and realized a) the maid is lacing it too tight because the cord is way too short and b) the stays are a different style than her normal ones would be based on what everyone else is wearing. So they mail-ordered a new cut of stays and then the maid decided they were too short on time to un-lace them when the cord turned out to be too short. I'm guessing her thought process was just "eh, she can deal with it for a few hours, I'll find a longer cord before she wears it again" but didn't mention it because the father was there, so Elizabeth just assumed the stays were supposed to feel like that. Almost certainly not what the filmmakers were going for, but unexpectedly cohesive explanation. Still fucking stupid though.
@@anonymousperson4214 it makes sense, though. In the first scene of the movie, when we see young Elizabeth in the ship, she IS wearing a fashionable dress for girls her age at the period.
This was so insightful! I'd always thought these scenes sold because modern audiences love being flattered about how much better/smarter we are NOW, we would NEVER demand people wear these horrible contraptions... but this actually makes so much sense. We do seem to think beauty (or rather, achieving an appearance that's culturally acceptable) is more valuable when it causes pain. Looking at it that way, I almost want to draw a line from the corset torture scenes to like... exercise torture scenes. Artist torture scenes. Reality shows like Biggest Loser or America's Next Top Model, or ballet movies like Black Swan. (Maybe I'm getting a little galaxy-brained since I've gotten so into fat liberation lately, and I know BL isn't just women and femmes, but I think its biggest selling point really is the audience getting to ogle at the pain of these people trying to force their bodies into a shape that the audience/the show/the heteropatriarchy at large finds more visually appealing.) Anyway, this was really great, I'm going to be thinking about this video a lot!
I was going to say it's the Historical drama equivalent of the makeover scene, & then I realised in many examples it is a makeover scene (or at least dressing up for a rare occasion) ... Even when it's not, though, it's still an equivalent: makeover scenes (usually montages) are also full of torture (only it's usually passed off as humorous): waxing, make-up in the eye, exercise torture, like you said, tottering about on high heels, having food taken away....
Footbinding? I also have back issues and was born with malformed feet. I remember my marvellous mother, long gone, I’m 64, loosing her patience with someone who asked the perennial question ‘ehw…what’s wrong with her feet?’ And answering ‘I bind them’. Bound to try it again
This was something I hadn't considered! I thought there had to be more than the historically accurate thing to talk about but hadn't made it to any ideas. We already have the modern equivalent! Waxing scenes for body hair (see Miss Congeniality for that and others!) Everyone ("everyone") has this mental image of the sexy smooth woman who gets waxed or shaved (shorn? Haha) and the waxing scene makes better movies/TV!
It was in the book. The waxing that is. I didn't watch the series. It made sense in the book, both the waxing and how underthings were worn in the period. And hygiene was generally correct and not treated as a horror show, but rather just part of the storytelling.
@@SnappyDragon Outlander had a waxing scene but it was in season 2 when they were in France making friends with the nobles, so it was more of a rich people "come do this crazy new thing with me" deal.
@@eviesharpe1183 Yes, it was Louise inviting Claire to try out a new beauty trend with her, and the focus of the scene was less on the look achieved and more on contrasting waxing as this brand new upper class fad with how Claire knew of it in her own time.
This was an excellent video! I agree that it's really important to not only debunk these kinds of historical myths, but also to question why these kinds of tropes are prevalent in the first place. In my experience, whether the topic is historical fashion or anti-science rhetoric or conspiracy theories, explaining *why* these kinds of myths and misinformation are appealing goes a lot further in helping change peoples' minds than just repeatedly insisting on the correct facts. Thanks for making this video!
So true! And if we stay focused on the surface facts rather than the underlying issues, we tend to end up with the same problem 20 years later in a different guise.
I'm glad you're discussing this rather than just adding another "IT'S HISTORICALLY INACCURATE" to the conversation because well, as you said: these are not documentaries. They are entertainment. There's miles of difference between documentary and entertainment, and historical accuracy does not matter to the average person. It's about their emotional response, not if it was spiral laced or not! If we're thinking about this type of erotic depiction of suffering depicted in historical dramas about our time period, I assume it'll be painful sewn in hair weaves, injected fillers, and strapping on hip pads. That, and struggling, grunting, into corsets that the characters are pretending are not corsets with a flippant remark to another character akin to: "Women in the Victorian era were so ridiculous, they would make themselves miserable and tight lace CORSETS until they passed out just for a man! I'm so glad we're past all that!" I can only hope the drama's props department will leave the box of the "waist trainer" with the glaringly obvious corset shape and structure on the front on top of the book that the characters were using to make fun of Victorians and their corsets. That way, someone can toss the box aside so it lands on the book of Victorian fashion that brought on the conversation about corsets to start with. Then, once the box is on the book, the illustration on the "modern" box and the illustration of the horrible, evil corset from the Victorian era will line up, and the audience can see not a single thing has changed...
Exactly! I don't love that these shows don't take responsibility for the influence their depiction of history has on us, but just complaining about INACCURACY will go nowhere if we don't go into *why* the inaccuracies prevail.
So little bit of a long story. I used to wear a back brace because I inherited scoliosis from my dad. I would often forget to put the brace on (or just not want to) and it would always be accompanied by a minor pain like I could feel the brace was missing. A few years later, I hadn't worn the brace in a while because I was cleared by a doctor. For a while everything felt normal and I didn't have that awkward pain of not having the back brace. Now, the pain is back for some reason. I experimented with a few things to try and stop the pain but couldn't find a long lasting solution. However, I did find out why I was having this pain: however uncomfortable the back brace was on my hips, ribs and spine (I have a fast metabolism), I did like the feeling of having the sturdy support on my back, sides, and stomach. I was talking to a friend at 3 am over text saying how I was getting a bunch of stuff for my cosplay, one of the things being a corset. I made an offhand comment about how maybe the corset will be something that's able to be a long term solution for the back pain. So long story short, my friend is currently fixing up a corset for me so that I can wear it on a regular basis.
I really love your take on this. Sadly, having actresses suffer because of poor costuming choices isn't restricted to period dramas. In many action movies actresses and especially stuntwomen suffer from them too. For example, skimpy outfits won't allow for proper padding and action scenes in high heels are a safety hazard on their own. I am glad to see that the conversation about unpractical costumes mainly made for the appeal of the (mostly male) audience is comming up. But sadly we still have a long way to go.
I'm a cosplayer. I don't think actors and actresses make such a big deal about uncomfortable clothes, they're used with them. But for an interview, they victimize themselves because of course they do...
I think it was corsetiere Velda Lauder who said better to spend five minutes to reduce a waist by four inches, than four months of diet and working out. I have to agree
@@ragnkja I've only got an inch gap at most between my ribs & pelvis and I can still lace down up to a 6" reduction. I don't even wear my corsets all that often anymore since my disabilities get in the way of getting dressed sometimes let alone putting a corset on. Granted I don't lace down that much most of the time, tend to stick to 2-4" reduction (since I already have a natural hourglass figure so get the extreme shape easily). But its still very possible to reduce with a short waist. Unless you've got obliques which resent you trying... My muscle tone has always been questionable. I don't know if its because my muscles are too busy trying to hold my joints together whilst my ligaments just lounge around doing nothing or something else related to hypermobility. But I've always seemed to squish easily. Even though logic would suggest my waist is too short to do so.
@@AlexaFaie Yeah, different people definitely squish different amounts. My sister is wicked short waisted, but squishes a little more than I do because I have firm abs. I've got some very squishy friends who can go down 6-8 inches without going past the "firm hug" level of tightness. I think it has to do with how much fat your body puts around the middle as well as waist length.
The icing on the cake of frustration is, I'm sure the costuming departments absolutely could make and fit good corsets if they were given the chance! But it's usually not considered a priority. I've read a total of one (1) interview where an actress talks about the costuming department being allowed to go the extra mile to make her costumes comfortable and easy to wear.
@@SnappyDragon Oh yeah. If there was a similar garment for male actors, I'm sure the costume department would be allowed to do extra fittings to make sure they fit well.
Loved this take. I've always just read this scene as the period equivalent of the "ugh, stilettos" and subsequent "thank goodness I can take these damned shoes off" shots in some 80s and 90s movies and through to Sex and the City. It's not about "accuracy" it's about a period-relevant shorthand for "the crap we do to our bodies for the male gaze" be it corsets, heels, makeup, etc. I think the current shorthand is false lashes? PS: as someone who likes their corset tight, sometimes getting there requires a second set of hands and a couple of yanks that can be a bit of a jolt. But I *like* the sensation of confinement and mild discomfort it creates, as well as the sensation of removing it hours later.
Historically inaccurate stays aside, Where Bridgerton was concerned it didn't seem like they were trying to say all the women were uncomfortable in their corsets/stays, but more like they were demonstrating how controlling and kind of toxic Penelope's mother was. Penelope asks if she is to breathe and the mom makes some comment about how small her waist was the size of a grapefruit and a half at that daughters age.
Once upon a time when my natural waist was 24", I made a crinoline dress for Halloween. For one month before, each night after work, I put on my corset and by the time came to wear my dress, my waist was, in fact, laced down to 18". Giving me a 36" bust and an 18" waistline. The result at work was devestating. Properly fitted, over a chemise, I wore that dress all day, rested after work, and redressed for an evening party. I will admit that getting out of the corset at the end of the evening was "better than sex". But there were no listing effects and I truly enjoyed the admiration and envy.
The thing that drives your point home for me is the contrast in the way that corset lacing scenes are portrayed in the sapphic media I've consumed. There's none of the painful tight-lacing nonsense between the femme love interests, it's gentle touches or admiring the flossing or noticing how deftly one's partner can lace/unlace them. The only time I've ever even seen tight lacing in one of those stories, is because one of the love interests is being laced into her corset by her mother to get ready to be presented to a man who she doesn't want to marry.
You remind me that I as a male should have pearls so I can clutch something when I am scandalized. Very fascinating video and so glad you created something new. We are not really far removed from our ancestors but we at least have the internet and air conditioning. Also I think they will mock how many shoes we have.
I think that history might question women wearing 9 inch stiletto heals on their shoes. In addition to causing foot pain, this odd weight distribution can create issues in your knees, ankles, hips, and lower back. Heels also can cause ingrown toenails and contribute to the development of bunions and hammertoes. In extreme cases, heels can cause tiny stress fractures, which eventually lead to arthritis. it is also incomprehesable the prices women are prepared to pay for these torcher devices! For Example.... Antonio Vietri Moon Star Shoes - $19.9 Million Jada Dubai Passion Diamond Stilettos - $17 million Debbie Wingham Heels - $15.1 million A.F. Vandevorst Diamond Boots - $3.1 million Harry Winston Ruby Slippers - $3 million Stuart Weitzman Rita Hayworth Heels - $2.75 million Stuart Weitzman Tanzanite Heel - $2 million Stuart Weitzman Cinderella Slippers - $2 million Stuart Weitzman “Wizard of Oz” Ruby Stilettos - $1.6 million Stuart Weitzman Platinum Guild Heels - $1.09 million Stuart Weitzman Marylin Monroe - $1 million
I used to work with a woman who had worn high heel shoes and boots all her adult life and could no longer wear flats because of the shortened ligaments or muscles in her lower legs ☹️
Loved this video as always! I thought of something really interesting (to me) when you said: “It’s scandal!” My first language was the ever popular and oh so useful Romanian. My parents left Romania over 60 years ago and when I was learning to talk, my mom used to wear a girdle every day (in the 1960s). The word for girdle in Romanian (at that time, idk what word is used today) was - SCANDAL! (Pronounced a bit differently but the same word). Not even subtle but I never thought about it at all before your video today!
Another thing is that actors talking about their comfy corsets don't make headlines, so there's selection bias here too. Ruth Gemmel talks about her season two stays in Bridgerton The Official Podcast, saying that they were comfy, but no one picks up on that. (If you wanna listen, it's the "Growth Through Grief" episode). We only hear about the negative and the bad examples in the headlines.
Great video! I keep thinking about how I would handle a corset if I was in a historical production, and it would either be spending my own money to get a corset (and get used to it) months in advance, or it would be pestering the studio to get the corset...months in advance.
Possible fashion torture scenes: people getting pants painted on, starving themselves for chic 90s looks, people joking about getting TB for beauty, lots of “sexy or not” websites/apps.
Thank you for bringing intellectual depth and philosophical questions to the historical costuming space. I don’t always share your ethical priorities or conclusions but I do appreciate having your voice around challenging me to think more deeply and ask better questions.
Wait… you mean they don’t already show “women suffer to be beautiful” in TV shows and movies of the 20th and 21st century? Case in point: there is an episode in the Original CIS where they find the body of a model who, it turns out, had mutilated her face in an effort to be within her required weight for her shoot, and another scene within the same episode having the Photographer yelling at a different model about “keeping her nose out of the troth” because she’d gained maybe one or two pounds. This issue is already in modern setting media, and will likely never go away completely.
Perspective of a torture nerd here. Now, we tend to sexualize pain, for some reason it's a long standing tradition. English is only my third language, but in French and Russian, the language used to describe violence is quite sexual. In the days of public executions and torture, both male and female convicts were sexualized, with a focus put on the men's erection. Also, the french in the xviii and xix centuries couldn't get enough of boarding school stories, especially in an English setting, for reasons similar we like to see the corset torture scene. People apparently read with great pleasure about boys being caned and birched till blood flowed. In the 70s Québec, there were anti-clerical songs joking about the how all the posh boys got raped at school. So, I don't think such behavior has anything to do with patriarchy or anti-feminism, but rather the natural sadism of the human race. In fact, I am kind of glad I'm a woman so my body's reaction to extreme embarrassment isn't as visible as it is for men. That being said, the fact it sadism is a human instinct is no excuse for crappy behavior and productions who don't have regards for the safety and well-being of their staff, regardless of the hierarchy should be boycotted.
Honestly this is why I refuse to wear makeup and super fashion forward clothing to work. Idk why men can show up with crusty faces and basic clothes and don't get the same kind of judgement that women do. I've worked as front desk at some places and had coworkers comment about how I was wearing athleasure wear but with no make-up so i wasnt putting my best face forward to represnt the company. Meanwhile i had my hair in a neat ballerina top bun with a cute scrunchi and while i wasnt wearing makeup my eyebrows were brushed and not "bushy" which also shouldnt be an issue. And I'm an esthetician so i wash my face every day and apply skin care and pore bluring sunscreen so I have nice skin that i worked hard over years to achieve once. And i was wearing a form fitting black long sleave shirt with addidas joggers and addidas shoes. So its not like i came to work looking like a bum. I hate the amount of unpaid effort we have to go through just to go to an interview, or show up for work and look professional, to help with getting raises. Its exhausting, expensive and not something men go through to the same extent. that is why I save my pretty outfits and makeup for when I go out with friends or my partner. And screw jobs that make makeup and uncomfortable formal clothes the professional attire.
The amount of times that I’ve had to correct people about proper corset etiquette and history because they only know about them from period DRAMAS is so interesting to me. I love historical fashion so I make and wear a lot of historical corsets and I’ve had people make so many comments because they’re so misinformed. It also totally feeds into the whole “beauty is pain” mindset that society has.
4:49 - In Braveheart, William Wallace wears a kilt, but I've read that kilts didn't actually become a thing until a few centuries later. Also, only highlanders wore them and Wallace was a lowlander.
I mean, I've only had one bad experience with a corset, after years of going to Ren Faires. My friend put on some weight, noticed it, and went to the corset place to get it relaced properly. But they didn't, they tightened her to the point of making her pass out a few minutes into sitting down, since all the pressure on her diaphragm made it impossible to breathe properly. So, in short. Corsets are only evil when they are too small, or improperly used.
I mean... My own personal "beauty is pain" awfulness was my mother taking me to get laser hair removal, but refusing to all me to get the topical painkiller because it cost extra... So let's go with that. Burning hair off with lasers.
Excellent content, as always. Yay Fibro-babes!! Doing things is hard when breathing hurts. Or walking, sitting, thinking... I am a freelance costumer specializing in historical dress. I'm thinking of adding a "seasoning" clause to ALL bodies, stays, and corset contracts. In theater, it's easier, but FILM!!! Actors often get their costumes on the day of shooting and balk at the corset. More than once, I've had an actor say, "oh, good, the top is boned, so I DON'T have to wear the corset,".
When I was in college, I worked in the costume shop, and when we did period shows, the cast always rehearsed in corsets and underskirts to get used to them. And we always had the newbie or two absolutely dreading getting laced into their corset because of what has been portrayed about them in the media. And it was always fun to see their faces when they’re fully laced in. They realize “Wow, this fits and it’s actually comfortable.” And staying in them for a few hours to rehearse is a snap for them.
I really appreciate this take! I talk about corsetry a lot at work (clothing and garment trades interp at a historic site) and I often explain that corsets and stays were nowhere near as dramatic as the movies make them out to be. I had a hard time understanding WHY films and shows keep doing this, but your explanation makes a lot of sense.
@@SnappyDragon I actually really enjoy expanding people's ideas about what life would have been like in other eras. People in the past had all the same needs and desires we have today, they just had different ways of meeting them depending on the technology available. And that technology informs the power signals of dress and aesthetics. Either it's fascinating stuff to everyone, or my enthusiasm for it is contagious, but generally people seem to enjoy my info-dumping. I love my job.
I did enjoy this one! Not in America so cannot comment on your mattress (although I am in need of new one) Having been an "alternate" dress maker for some years, I constantly heard horror stories of tightly laced, badly made corsets and at one point, refused to repair cheep and nasty imports. A well made, fitting corset can be taken to the "tight laced" sexy genre, but found the word did get around eventually that this was not always a good thing. I also had to cart a young lady off to the ED when she rapidly unlaced her badly made waist trainer and she passed out and could not stay consious.
The accuracy v storytelling problem invalidates a lot more than just the complaints about corset scenes. Right now everyone is (quite rightly) panning the Netflix adaptation of Persuasion and only one of the dozen or so complaints I've seen about it's use of language is how the modernizations of language connect to character, everything else is "How DARE you put all this modern slang in my period drama!" One person here on TH-cam even complained that the admiral praised the beauty of the garden in simple plain language instead of a flowery speech WHICH IS EXACTLY THE SORT OF THING PERIOD WRITERS HAVE ALWAYS DONE TO INDICATE A WORKING CLASS OR DIRECT CHARACTER (the classic simple soldier, or in this case sailor). I would love to see a full on shift to tightlacing = kink in period drama.
I just. do people not realize that historical writers were probably using plenty of their time's modern slang? This is the sort of thing that makes me want to print out every crude joke in Shakespeare's entire body of work and smack people with it.
@@SnappyDragon Some of the jokes and puns that would have been obvious to an Elizabethan/Jacobean audience but aren’t always as obvious to a current one are absolutely _filthy_ ! “And so, from hour to hour, we ripe and ripe. And then, from hour to hour, we rot and rot; And thereby hangs a tale.” Homophones that are no longer homophones: “hour”/“wh*re”, “ripe”/“r*pe”, “rot”/“rut”. In this context, “tale”/“tail” also becomes a pun.
One thing I've noticed about 80's nostalgia movies, especially since I have 1st hand memory of how the clothes looked in real life, every time I see the clothes on the screen, despite the colors, cuts, styles and fit being SPOT ON, the clothes still don't look quite right. They still don't look like what I remember them looking like; and, I've figured out why, and I've finally found a channel where I can share it and it be a relevant comment: It's the fabric itself that is inaccurate. Given the fabrics around in the early 80's, HOW it hangs off the body is stiffer than fabrics we wear now. Terry cloth shorty suits were popular, but you would never see that fabric now. POLYESTER was way different and microfiber didn't exist, but rayon was coming out around that time, and I remember loving it. That little difference in fabric texture and composition was distinct enough to change how the clothes looked completely. That actually clothes of the time, for lack of a better descriptor, looked and felt...uncomfortable, and sloppy. Look at an 80's movie and one made now to look like the 80's and that's what you'll see. They exact outfit, but one looks like it fits and is comfortable, the older one, not.
Something that has always annoyed me is in period pieces movies/shows where they talk about how corsets are super evil and all that. They have women wearing only the corset on bare skin, which would never happen. They would be wearing a chemise or something to protect the corset from dirt, sweat, oils, etc. I have seen it in a few media pieces and it's usually so they can show a shot of the actress's bare back all bruised and imprinted with the lacing and corset lining. Like in The Alienist the character Sarah Howard, played by Dakota Fanning, she's helped out of her corset by her maid and even makes the comment about men keeping them in torture cages.
Yuuuup they're literally creating circumstances that did not exist so they can talk about how bad corsets were. It's not like bras never leave marks on the skin either!
the poorest of the poor might have a very well used/ patch or possibly ragged shift/ or hand-me down cut done men's shirt so their might be a touch less comfortable, but they'd still be wearing a corset or stays. it might be well worn and well used and there only but they would have one at least for there 'sunday' best look. the very poorest might not be wearing one because they couldn't afford it but they also might be wearing other things that are off, like a pair of very ragged trouser despite being female etc.
It drives me so crazy in fiction too! Especially books that are otherwise fairly well researched and EVERY single one has multiple mentions of "uncomfortable" stays/corsets/mixing terminology cough discoveryofwitches (book) and foundthings series. Like, I enjoyed some of these books so much, and so much of the clothing descriptions are spot on...but the heroine still complains about those tight uncomfortable corsets (or in found things when she was like oh corsets are so much more comfortable because I have space for my belly unlike half stays/17th century stays)
Hihi, I really enjoy these historic V vs modern V scenes. 🤣 Maybe some day there will be stories told about the tortures of Spanx. Rolling down and up consistently while the wearer can hardly move.
Imagine what they will say in movies 100yrs from now depicting the struggle of putting on a bra. "Oh, a woman must pretzel herself to get all the straps & snaps in place. And that underwire! Ugh!"
Fascinating point and its obverse: we love to feel superior to people in tight-lacing torture scenes, but the director reliably gambles that we'll identify with the person forced to fit themselves int o a shape that is palatable to Society... love this video already, V! And the mattress is tempting... never bought myself a new one...
I wish these dressing scenes focused more on the layers and construction of the costume rather than this tight-lacing torture. Next time I see tight-lacing in a period drama, it better be a character choice.
Absolutely! If we're going to see tight-lacing, let's see a scene where it's relevant to characterization and they talk about how the character is being Extra or Under A Lot Of Pressure or whatever relevant social factors are making her go to fashionable extremes.
This was great! Very nice to go beyond the "well actually" of the inaccuracy of this trope, to the why of the persistence of it. *clapping hands emoji*
Not sure if kink really fits the bill since that implies something outside of the general social norm. "Harmful cultural perception and narrative of what is attractive and erotic"?
Brilliant analysis. Thank you. I think we’ll see portrayals of pre-plastic surgery, with the market drawings on the face and conversations shoot injections and bone shaping. We already do sometimes.
I wonder.. do we assume that corsets are ill-fitting because we never put the time into making bras that fit well or learning how a bra should fit? I would LOVE to see an accurate portrayal of a woman with "angry red" bra indentations along her ribcage and shoulders (because hello! That's modern accurate!). How bad is it that we compress our ribcage and distribute weight on two shoulder straps! I also get so frustrated that the "ideal fashion shilouette" has to be maintained by some people through extreme body maintenance such as diet+exercise to have skin-tight stretchy clothes fit as they were designed.
Tbh I think high heels are probably genuinely not good for people, especially over long periods of time and/or particularly high heels, but that'll probably be overblown into "Women would actually get their toes removed so they could fit into a heel better!!!!!" (evidence: Barbie not having distinctly modeled toes). That's my direct parallel with the absolutely baffling rib removal corset myth, like how cheap do you think life was/how good do you think Victorian medicine was that you think people would just do that?
I'm sure there were some women who hated wearing corsets and found them torturous. I feel that way about bras and shoes. "Oh you've never had them fitted/properly broken in." I wish it were that simple. I really do. I still wear a bra only when strictly necessary, ie when not wearing one is less comfortable than wearing one. The best I can hope for from a professional fitting is something tolerable for more than an hour of activity. I was even called to task about not wearing a bra at work for being "unprofessional" because OMG NIPPLES, AAAAAHHH!!! (despite the male boss who brought it up having far more prominent nipples than mine, a coworker in the same office wearing pants so low-cut that everyone could tell she wore thong underwear, another coworker who wore plunging necklines as well as crop tops, and an older coworker whose nips were quite visible through her bra and shirt... so yeah, fixated much? perhaps we need to revisit precisely who is unprofessional, now?) And I built my whole office wardrobe around "can this be worn with cowboy boots?" because "proper" women's shoes do not fit me well and I can't stand even running shoes pressing against the bottoms of my feet when I'm seated. Thank heavens I now work somewhere I can wear what is comfortable to work in. Torturing yourself to make yourself feel attractive is one thing, go ahead and get those breast implants or that nosejob or painful hair procedure, wear the stiletto heels, tight jeans, etc if it mattes that much to you, but I completely agree that this whole torturing yourself because society says you're suppsed to (ie, this ridiculous notion that body hair on women is somehow unnatural or that the only body fat acceptable is breast tissue) or to "be attractive to potential suitors" is just utter bunk and we as a society really need to see to that.
There are *so* many ways to show how much of a struggle life could be in the past, but nooooo, they only want to show us the "sexy" ones. I think there's an interview about Game of Thrones to that effect.
Spanx. 100% Spanx. (I also think there will be debate on if Spanx was a name brand or a type of shape restricting fashion and also *when* a certain kind of shapeware can be called Spanx)
"... we still have such an issue with the idea that beauty equals pain, that women and fem folks especially have to drastically change how we look in order to be appealing, or even acceptable for public consumption. " SO GOOD ANALYSIS OF THE PROBLEM !! It's so f*cked-up. I've always resisted that idea of needing to modify myself in order to be "pretty" - or even acceptable, as you put it. It's tiring, expensive, often painful, takes time and energy, never gets perfect, and teaches me (and all other fem folks) to hate our bodies daily. Stopped body hair removal 10 years ago and it helped me so much in my self-love. Now the only modifications I do are painless and for my own pleasure (such as dyeing a strand of hair green). PS. One of the rare ads in a video that actually MAKES SENSE with who the TH-camr is. Liked the fact.
Suggestions for 200 years from now “ we are better then you scene “. TH-cam has been popping pret a porter shows from the major fashion houses in my feed ( the algorithm must think historical clothing and high fashion are related in some way ) . Most of the models look like victims of a natural disaster. Gaunt to the point of malnutrition. So food scenes involving models and people aiming to emulate models played for the monastic self denial in service of beauty.
What do I imagine period dramas of the future showcasing in terms of today's clothes? I wouldn't be surprised if it involved society's obsession with female butts and seeing those butts in skin tight, pocket free pants.
I remember an embarrassing period of my life in my late teens and 20s when I was so confused about why corsets are so popular among some subcultures like goth when corsets are supposed to be uncomfortable and that is why it was replaced by the bra. It's not until recently when I started watching fashion history videos like yours that I finally learned that pop culture lied to me about corsets. I now have a few corsets of my own, and I found that I enjoy the feeling of being hugged and supported by the corset more than the cutting sensation of the bra around my ribs.
OMG I have the exact same bed tablet (the bamboo bed table thing? sorry, not a native english speaker) for when I'm bed-bound! You've been one of my favourite creators for a long time because I'm disabled and I've suffered from chronic illness and chronic pain for over ten years now. There are so few creators who understand what this is like and what it means to live with these issues (which is why I created my channel in the first place, hoping to show more disabled representation in a domain that matters to me) so I've always been thrilled that I was able to find you. I've used that mini-bed table almost every day since my dad gifted it to me two years ago, including today haha the joys of being stuck in bed while you're in pain and desperate for any and all distractions /sighs/
Not only inaccurate but also VERY annoyingly cliche in period pieces (there’s even some anime with that kind of scene and shows the girl screaming). Mainly I blame Gone With The Wind for popularizing the whole thing on screen.
My bet on what the focus will be for torture for beauty is high heels. They are already a staple of discomfort for beauty even though comfortable and sensible heels are a thing. The extremes will probably take the stiletto heels, platform heels and perhaps even ballet heels if those ever gets any mainstream spotlight.
200 years from now, "historical" movies will be all about spanx. and maybe brazilian waxes and botox injections. and i still need to find someone local or have my costuming friend help me make a corset. swear i would probably have way better posture and less back issues with these mountains on my chest if i wore one :D
I'm reading The Pocket by Berman and Fennetaux. It seems that sewing internal stays pockets for characters to hide items in would be a much more accurate way to include sexual humor in period dramas.
And also just for plot devices! "How did you smuggle this concealed weapon in?!" "In the busk pocket of my stays, it's not like *men* could look there with any kind of decency!"
Thank you for your insightful analysis! Very thought provoking. Future movie melodramas:. Struggling into too tight jeans (I feel like this has already been done in some movies...), am assumption that everyone wore sky high heels and "progressive" characters throwing them away, given the ridiculousness of the thought - I'd love to see a big stab at the Tyranny of Socks! Though more realistically, it'd be control top panty hose...
I know I've seen a few rom-coms in which a girl rolling around on the bed and doing essentially a table pose to button her hands is featured... I just can't remember which ones. 🤦🏻♀️
As someone who lived through the 80s (when skinny jeans *didn't* have any spandex), wearing those control top pantyhose you referenced really helped us put said jeans on!
Tbh, I'd LOVE a corset-tying scene where it's the girl's first "adult" corset (you know, in the way you get your first bra) and trying to put it on naked skin, then trying to lace it too tight and so on and older women just chuckling and going "sweetie not like that" then giving her a whole lesson or something Like, give me a magic changeover scene where the one changed is consenting! I promise it will be interesting to audience!
I used to work at a Renn Faire, and I remember one day hearing a conversation among the cast about how awful corsets are/were, and 'how far we're come since then.' Listened as long as I could, then pointed out that we still have corsets, it's just called 'shapewear' and other sneaky terms like that now, and it's made of spandex and other synthetics meant to squish you into shape. In a depressing twist, I was primarily dismissed and ignored. And don't even get me started on the 'suffering for your art' mentality - it's just as bad on the acting side as it is on the viewers' side. Your costume doesn't fit? That's just how it goes. The audience/attendees giving you a hard time? Part of the job. You don't have a proper green room to get out of the elements or away from the noise? You're not on the pro cast, what do you expect? It's genuinely horrifying.
Thank you very much for putting a real face on women and fashion, both past and present. Truly adds credence to the old line 'that we don't learn from history'! I can't wear most of the fashion raves I see because I'm allergic to them (including polyester and acrylic) but I think that plastic fake eyelashes and plastic fake nails for women will one day be looked at with laughter. I would hope it will be because we all, women and men, will start to see who we are and how we look as beautiful.
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Do they have a NON LATEX version? Anaphylaxis is unsympathetic to my general comfort and sleep quality. Every single thing about the mattress sounds ah-mazing!
@@MichiaMakes naturepedic sells organic non latex mattresses, they use microcoils which are meant to be comparable latex.
I love your ad for the mattress - you have the most genuine happy smile on your face as you bounce into your newly made bed that I have ever seen!
Absolutely, studios and media expect us to go: "Woaaaah, she's so commited to the role", when an interview comes out about an actress being in pain because of her corset, instead of going: "Yeah, million dollar company couldn't spend a little more to get her a costume that actually fits her. Great."
If we can get across the point that corset torture is a sign of both lazy storytelling and generally awful working conditions (and not just for the corseted actresses), it might change.
@@ragnkja Well, when Emma Watson refused to wear a corset (some news outlets said it was in her contract) under her prom dress thingy in Beauty and the Beast no one said: Disney, spend a little more money and get her a corset that actually fits, and instead raged against Watson herself for not SUFFERING for her CRAFT! So, I'm not optimistic yet.
@@rankushrenada
Yeah, it’s not a good sign when that’s the response to an actresses basically saying “I don’t trust them to put me in a corset and not make it painful and/or do a torture corn tightlacing scene.”
And, IIRC, even her refusal to wear one was framed from the perspective of "either they are torture or they are no big deal". Which is missing most of the important nuances.
@@rankushrenada I think people mocked Miss Watson not for refusing to "suffer" for her craft, but because her reasons were silly and unrealistic. it was more a spoiled little girl snarking against clothing of the past than wearing period correct clothing.
I'd love to see a subversive corset scene where the person getting laced up looks uncomfortable for a couple seconds, then they either go, "oh, this isn't mine, this is my sister's!" and they put the one on that actually fits, or if someone is lacing them up, the person notices the discomfort and does the humane thing of making sure the wearer is comfortable. I love witnessing little glimpses of empathy and care for other people-or at least people being accommodating enough not to intentionally case harm. But maybe I'm just a romantic!
A great idea especially if it’s to portray female relationships as a thing in and of itself and not how ithe female character/relationships relates to the male protagonist.
@@yalissa73 YES, absolutely! Just a random interaction that has nothing to do with the main plot, but something that would (presumably) be far more authentic to how people in past times behave during something as mundane as dressing than to make it seem like every morning is a physical battle against the upper body. But as our snappiest dragon friend has pointed out, that wouldn't be titillating enough and it wouldn't get general audiences' attention, sadly... Sigh. I just love the idea of normalizing people being kind, no matter the era.
(I'm a lesbian and it's kind of funny because the idea of there being a male protagonist-or, indeed, any men in the story, except maybe family members-didn't even occur to me! I was only thinking of abstract patriarchal concepts influencing the plot... because I'm clueless as fuck, apparently!)
Or tells them to stop being daft and wear a shift
I would very much love to see this in a scene that parallels modern drama heroines getting ready for a party together!
@@SnappyDragon That would be so lovely! Imagine a time traveler trying to lace up a corset in the way movies usually portray it and the others in the room are like, "Um... You don't have to do it so tight! Let me show you how I do it. We don't want you to hurt yourself! How will you do any dancing if you're so uncomfortable?" Not all support must come from corsets alone, friendship too can hold up the bust! Or something like that-the metaphor may have gotten a bit away from me there.
Instead of the corset torture scene, future period dramas will feature the scene where the actors jump, roll around, and generally struggle to get into their Spanx.
Yeah, but that would be accurate 😝
I think it will be all about heels. Given that those things are actually really bad for you
@@Albinojackrussel this! I want a future movie about a woman with bionic feet because she ruined her real feet by wearing heels!
@@Albinojackrussel That's my guess for what future pearl clutching will be about.
My mind immediately went to that scene from White Chicks lol
I wish corset-lacing scenes would be portrayed as a mundane part of life in past eras rather than a metaphor of patriarchal oppression. Sadly, there are very few movies and TV shows that portray corsets in a more positive light.
Especially because corsets and other undergarments allowed people to achieve the fashionable style using their clothing, unlike today where you're expected to change your actual body using far more dangerous and permanent methods than corsetry.
I am very much here for this! Discovery of Witches did reasonably well which is why I included the clip, and Gentleman Jack has a great little mundane corset lacing clip in their intro too.
I was gonna reply Imagine giving bras the same Treatment buuuuut then i remembered that the present really Likes to dunk on underwire bras instead of cheap manufacturing and ill fit and pretending that everyone will be comfortable in a bralette (end of busty Lady rant )
@@annabeinglazy5580 As a busty lady, some of the most comfortable bras I own are wireless ones. I do however have a few underwire ones that are just as comfy. I particular like vintage 1950s-1960s style bullet bras because they tend to be well-structured without always needing underwire and provide more coverage for my very round girls, not to mention making them look perkier than they really are!
@@annabeinglazy5580
Mass-manufactured underwire bras don’t fit me because they’re too symmetrical. I have no doubt that if I could get _any_ type of support garment fitted to my body, taking those tiny but important asymmetries into account, I’d be a lot more comfortable than I am in my current high-quality bras that don’t quite fit right.
Whenever I see people in this community talk about why actresses may find corsets so unpleasant to wear the view tends to be that the corset isn't properly fitted and broken in. Sure, that's probably part of the problem. But I never see anyone talk about the fact the film industry cares far more about the appearance of actresses than about their comfort or their health. What currently attractive? The smallest waist possible which means that these women are almost certainly being tight laced into them. After all, everyone knows that what a corset if for.
Thank you for putting human modern context on something so often view with objective academia that makes the past more important than individual people.
While the perspective that the actresses are made to suffer completely needlessly _is_ discussed, there isn’t nearly enough focus on _why_ they’re put through it. I find it telling that stage actresses can be so comfortable in their corsets as long as the costumes fit, but movie actresses are made to “suffer for their art”.
Let's face it, the film industry likes their actresses starvation skinny so I don't think they care at all about their physical well being in the slightest
A lot of times people don't wear anything under the corset. If your not wearing a shift you will have rubbing and gouging from the corset.
This is exactly the point I wanted to make! I see far too much corset discourse getting very absolute, either corsets were torture or anyone not comfortable in a corset is doing something wrong. Realistically I care a lot more about the expectation that someone would suffer through a painful corset than the corset itself.
Yes, the culture in the entertainment industry is fat phobic, except in rare (almost always tokenistic) cases. So if they want to make an hourglass figure on an actress who has no fat to squish (because almost skeletal is the norm in Hollywood) and they are afraid of padding her hips or bust in case she looks 'fat' there's no option but to tightlace in a way that would cause pain. Honestly Is suspect that culture is so ingrained that the actresses would be unhappy about the idea of making their backside or hips look larger with padding.
I never thought of it before but boy howdy does our society glamourize pain for beauty. It is quite unsettling that we even do it to the past. I hope the future drags us. Let them call us out for using surgery and extreme diets to alter ourselves instead of using mere undergarments like our forebearers. The fact people use botox to paralyze their faces so they wont have wrinkles is far more disturbing than a corset.
On doit souffrir etre belle?
I mean there’s even the phrase “pain IS beauty.”
No wonder EDs and SH are so prominent
"I hope the future drags us." Hear hear!
a lot of women do use slimming undergarments but doing so is often embarrassing because people aren’t allowed to have bodies i guess
Plus stilittos!
I feel like in most modern versions of the corset torture scene it is just used as lazy visual shorthand to show how modern and relatable the heroine is in comparison to the backwards society she lives in. It leans much more on the "I am so superior to those people in the past" ego boost you mentioned than on the corsets are sexy trope. Bonus points if the "not like other girls" female lead gets to rip off her corset to show how she rejects the sexism of the past.
The trope is at best a tired cliché at this point, but it has become so pervasive that people actually find its absence more unrealistic than its presence. I made a pair of 18th century stays last year, and I was showing them off to my mom's friends. They were all convinced that I had to be in incredible amounts of pain wearing them, because corsets in movies were always painful. I kept on telling them that other than being a little warm, I was absolutely fine. This did not compute.
I would also love for the "not like other girls" trope to go die in a corner too!
It's similar to when a character in the story is Scottish and then writers just put them in a kilt, problem solved, instead of actually writing the character (perhaps doing like 10mins research in the library or YT). Sometimes it's not even a full kilt but just a vaguely tartan-y skirt the character will wear even in their sleep. It's not only lazy but also insulting, because in both cases the creators assume that the viewers are too dumb to understand details or storylines.
Yes this!
It's in the script and who's writing it!
1800s SnappyDragon wanted her corset so tight that only 2022 SnappyDragon was far enough away to do it.
You, honored viewer, WIN the comments section.
Future generations will probably be shaking their heads at the sheer amount of polyester everyone wore on the 21st century, and presuming we were all sweaty and stinking all the time.
I certainly hope so, because that means a future where it's easy to find clothes that are not polyester!
@@SnappyDragon That future is here in some countries, at least if you're okay with avoiding certain cuts altogether. Shiny looking sheer dresses- almost certainly polyester. The only thing I really struggle with is sweaters and similar thick garments which is acrylic yarn all over the place! Ugh
Not gonna lie, this summer has made all my clothes sweaty and disgusting. Deffo staying away from polyester in the future.
I think Harlots has a scene where Betsy and Violet are helping each other lace into their stays as just a casual girls getting ready for the day thing, which is doubly nice because sex workers are so rarely allowed to be anything but tragic or sex objects in other media. If memory serves, that's also the scene where Violet says they should "stab the bitch through the eyeballs" in regards to the abusive bawd Lydia Quigley.
I love *so much* about that show!
@@SnappyDragon it's one of my favorites ^-^ the history of sex work has always been an intense special interest of mine and it's portrayed so matter-of-factly in the show
@@seraphinasullivan4849 There's also a scene in the movie "In the Good Old Summertime" where Judy Garland's character is wearing a corset while getting ready for a date with her secret admirer pen pal kind of person whose identity she doesn't find out until the end of the movie. No torturous corset-lacing scene à la Meet Me in St. Louis (another Judy Garland film shown at 7:22 in this video), just getting ready for a night out.
Best show ever. It shows humans being humans, doing human things.
Tight lacing scenes aside, i do think we need to push really hard for foundations to be done properly for the comfort of the actresses involved. Because if you are getting blisters because the wardrobe dept didn't have brains enough to put a freaking under layer under the corset that is NOT OK!
Absolutely! And I'm not sure it's even the fault of the wardrobe departments. The impression I've gotten are that it's often directors/producers/writers making these calls regardless of whether wardrobe could do right by the actors.
Some times it isn't the costume designer, it's the director, producer, or actor who doesn't want to have a chemise on. They don't think it's sexy.
I'd love something in which a modern woman goes back in time, and in the inevitable corset scene discovers that it's actually really comfortable when properly fitted and worn.
Hey period drama writers, get on this!
Well, there's always Outlander!
The Rise and Fall of D.O.D.O. by Neal Stephenson and Nicole Galland has a time traveler suffering from wearing borrowed stays/corsets because she can't afford to have ones made for her.
I think in general there's a lot of room to have fun with time travel stories that show that things that stereotypically sucked about the past actually weren't that bad, but also the things that *did* suck often aren't things that modern people might expect.
Safiya Nygaard has a scene like this in her 18th century video - where she hands out with Abby Cox and Nicole Rudolph. :)
as someone who wears corsets regularly (things that hang off my waist make me sick, so I wear a corset under things like skirts because it's waaay more comfortable than a waistband) the amount of asnine comments I get when people find out is unbelievable. Like "why would you wear something like that, doesn't it hurt?!" Do you... really think I would wear something that hurts me regularly? Like come on, use your brain.
I have a good friend who does similarly! Dresses without waistbands for daily wear, and a corset anytime she has to wear something fitted.
Well since most women where a bra that doesn't fit properly and is painful... yes, it actually is plausible that you would wear a corset regardless of the level of comfort/discomfort.
I wonder what the future generations are going say about us. I remember in the 90's when "painting on" your jeans was a thing. Wearing your jeans tao sizes too small. What will then future say about breast implants? Or butt? Or talk about the use of botox? Or just the use of surgery in general to modify our bodies? Strange how we have supposedly come so far from the the people in the past and look do an hour noses at them yet today we mutilate our bodies in the name of beauty through dangerous surgeries.
Same impossible standards, different technology. Which is why I'd love to see the focus go past the corsets (or jeans, or whatever else) and onto the standards!
The evolution of an ideal female body over the decades, even the centuries, is pretty actually fascinating! From the petite wasplike waists in the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries, to the boy like waifs of the “Roaring Twenties” , the bullet bra look of the 30’s and 40’s, to even today’s ideal of voluptuous curves, a narrow waist and a noticeable thigh gap. What will the future bring? Only time will tell!
one of the things that has frustrated me in the past with the corset hot takes, and it's very refreshing to see someone talk about these scenes without doing this, is how quick folks were to blame the actresses instead of the film makers. I think that's also part of why the industry hasn't gotten the backlash that would stop these scenes and the pain they put actresses through. Instead of rightly blaming the costume department and director for tightlacing an actresses, fashion historians reacted with "how dare this actresses say corsets are uncomfortable! She's wrong!"
I'm extra sympathetic because I've been in well-constructed corsets that were painful due to poor fitting, *and* been expected to wear them anyways by a production. If it's happening at the volunteer theater level, I can only imagine how that pressure increases for these shows!
I was low key impressed that, in The Gilded Age, not only did they represent corsetry as nothing except the "unmentionables" (ie not even worth mentioning in a specific scene), but also making sure they were worn appropriately over a chemise. 👏👏👏 Well done HBO and how surprising.
How refreshing of them!
@@SnappyDragon and also not showcasing young women in corsets as well 😱
In her video The Problem With Method Acting, Broey Deschanel makes the argument that star male actors use the current version of method acting to prove that their acting is masculine and therefore valid. The suffering then undergo to get into character does not objectively produce better acting and is not available to women, people of colour or non star actors as it is socially disruptive and costs time and effort not visible on screen. Women who emphasise their suffering on set might be also suggesting that their acting is more valid as their suffering replicates the historical reality. Even though we history nerds know that implication is invalid.
Ooh, interesting point!
I have been watching the 'curvy brides' and it just blows the girls minds that feel so dowdy in plus size clothing how comfortable having support is in a well made corseted garment and that they have lovely figures too.
This also has me thinking of the potential of painful tightlacing scenes to be used as less of an "ouchie! poor girl!" thing and more a "pain tolerance is badass and sexy" thing. Possibly even foreshadowing the character having to stitch up or cauterize her own wound and it clearly hurts but she's being all stoic action hero about it. Not sure to what extent that would actually help the "corsets weren't supposed to be painful" cause or the "we should stop weirdly sexualizing women's pain" cause, but it could be a cool subversion of a tired trope.
I like this take a lot!
I'd love to see it going in the direction of corsets-as-back/posture-support. Maybe she can lift heavier things because her corset supports her, or has great posture/form without as much training as her male counterparts?
@@SnappyDragon ohh that'd be neat!
I believe there was a time when some guy complained that corsets made the female body all hard and armoured and how unfeminine that was.
I want to see a scene in which a lady puts on a corset and her outer garments like a knight puts on his plate, and then grabs her parasol and marches into battle. :D
(Metaphorical battle. Real battle would probably be difficult in a dress, unless you're wearing a cycling costume or something like that.)
@@johannageisel5390 in my own writing i've had fantasy setting with corsetry as part of women's fashion, specifically to note that this or that female character who's earned some enemies and expects them to attack when they get half a chance has prepared by stitching some form of light armor onto her corset. They'd layer over it so no one could tell they were armored in anyway.
I love how you always include plenty of references to primary sources and various examples that both illustrate your point or provide different counterpoints. It makes for a much more nuanced overview than a lot of video opinion essays I’ve seen.
Of course! It seems silly to not explain *why* I think the way I do, and my audience is full of smart people who like doing the reading 😊
Don't forget: drag could potentially be a high fashion choice down the road. I've seen how much effort those performers put into it, and it's very similar to all the pomp and time and care of the victorian's.
One of my favorite things in research is finding proof that these so called "weird trends" in past centuries were really just "adult activity" content written with dubious quality (sometimes noticibly one handed 😂). Content that then goes on to be presented as Facts à la a certain history channel that calls its self *weird*.
Also, watching the trends change in such adult entertainment is its' own kind of fascinating. We frequently don't talk about "corn" except maybe in jokes, but studying it overall has some merit in understanding how intimate life, cultural worries, and taboos were changing through the decades/centuries.
(Did I keep it all TH-cam advertiser friendly? 😂😂😂)
Back in the early 80s when I moved out west my friends gave me a book called "the erotic art of the masters " it was a fabulous book for costumers because everyone was half undressed. But it very much showed the historical "corn" play. It also included the far East. I doubt the Mongolian corn of doing it on a galloping horse while she is standing on her head will ever come into fashion again.
Would not surprise me! It's like we forget people in the past were into Such Things, because they didn't speak about it as publicly or obviously.
didn't men wear corsets historically too? Like in the french court at one point, I think. How come there's no torture porn of a guy getting unreasonably tightalced?
Asking the important questions here!
Because the men who wore corsets did so against a social norm and therefore it was by choice (so can't do the forced trope, even though we know women weren't really forced). So wouldn't make for great torture porn. Though also worth considering that their masculinity was frequently called into question (called fops and dandies) as was their sexuality. So when satiricalised, they were basically called effeminate which has long been code for gay. Then if you look at some of the Victorian era documents about male corset wearers outside of the adverts for sports & military wear, they're very much of the "I was sent to a boarding school in some European country that I wasn't born in and whilst there was forced into tight corsets and was also made to wear maids outfits and forced to clean". AKA sissyfication fetish. Submitted to ladies magazines. Its highly doubtful those are anything other than stories, but still worth mentioning as its definitely possible men roleplayed it.
Even if Hollywood/other media producers knew of the various kinds of men who chose to wear corsets historically, they simply wouldn't want to show that because either they'd still be perceived as gay and we all know just how inclusive media is to LGBTQIA+ (they're not really there yet) or they wouldn't show it as it would be way too much of a fetish to be put on mainstream TV in a lighthearted period drama.
Pretty rare but I've seen a few, they tend to be in more "niche" genres though.
Yes. And unlike women’s corsets, which were supportive garments, for men they were shape wear. They were made to change their bodies. King Henry the 8th took 2 hours getting ready. His wives took just under an hour. And that was with a bath and hair
I'm a student for fashion design. In my classes, I often have to liste to my teachers and collegues talk about "how corsets were terrible and painful" (they don' have propper historical education), but, they are also very fine with the idea of modern thitgh lacing; I made a corset for myself, following an 1880s pattern and instructions, and they've tolde me it was "to week to thigth lace into it".
. . . i think you need better teachers!
@@SnappyDragon Unfortunatly, I'm from Brazil, and historical fashion is not a big field here, there is not a lot of people with formation for this.
Now that I see the connection between the torture scenes and (male gaze-y) erotic titillation I can't unsee it. I love The Alienist in many ways, for example, but it too is an offender with tight-lacing scenes galore. So that one scene from A Discovery of Witches was a wonderful corrective.
I'm reminded now of virtually any interview with (say) Dita Von Teese. It is almost inevitable that the subject of her corset collection comes up. You can almost sense the reporter's glee: "Doesn't it hurt?" Oof.
I'm gonna have to look that interview up for reference!
@@SnappyDragon It is wild. I think the one time this sense of creeptastic voyeurism doesn't enter the conversation is in the interview she did with Simon Doonan for his book Eccentric Glamour, although she readily admits to owning corsets that are literally meant to be crawled in.
I loved Pirates of the Caribbean when it came out, but as she got cooler in later movies, I couldn't remember why I didn't like Elizabeth at first. I think it was the corset (stays in her case) scene... Like. Girl, you wear this every day. Adjust your bust and be grateful for the back support. Le sigh.
The thing I hated about that scene after I learnt about stays and corsets, is the fact that they seem to be showing her needing to wear the stays for the first time ever when she gets that dress from her dad. Him saying its the latest fashion in London (or wherever he said. My mind making me pause on if that's correct) and her saying that the women in London must've learnt not to breathe.
But in reality she would have been wearing stays long before then!😭
That's the thing I hate about learning fashion history. It kills most things I used to love in movies/shows or makes me dislike those shows because they didn't do the bare minimum of research and accuracy. 😩
Yeah there is so much wrong with the context of that scene. It is certainly possible to lace uncomfortably tight in stays, but everything surrounding it was just not lining up.
For some odd reason before I knew about stays and watched historians I just assumed he's a single dad of fortune but hee seams like a silly air head and doesn't know his daughters size so they had to stuff her into it
I used to be mad about that until I watched it recently and realized a) the maid is lacing it too tight because the cord is way too short and b) the stays are a different style than her normal ones would be based on what everyone else is wearing. So they mail-ordered a new cut of stays and then the maid decided they were too short on time to un-lace them when the cord turned out to be too short. I'm guessing her thought process was just "eh, she can deal with it for a few hours, I'll find a longer cord before she wears it again" but didn't mention it because the father was there, so Elizabeth just assumed the stays were supposed to feel like that. Almost certainly not what the filmmakers were going for, but unexpectedly cohesive explanation. Still fucking stupid though.
@@anonymousperson4214 it makes sense, though. In the first scene of the movie, when we see young Elizabeth in the ship, she IS wearing a fashionable dress for girls her age at the period.
This was so insightful! I'd always thought these scenes sold because modern audiences love being flattered about how much better/smarter we are NOW, we would NEVER demand people wear these horrible contraptions... but this actually makes so much sense. We do seem to think beauty (or rather, achieving an appearance that's culturally acceptable) is more valuable when it causes pain.
Looking at it that way, I almost want to draw a line from the corset torture scenes to like... exercise torture scenes. Artist torture scenes. Reality shows like Biggest Loser or America's Next Top Model, or ballet movies like Black Swan. (Maybe I'm getting a little galaxy-brained since I've gotten so into fat liberation lately, and I know BL isn't just women and femmes, but I think its biggest selling point really is the audience getting to ogle at the pain of these people trying to force their bodies into a shape that the audience/the show/the heteropatriarchy at large finds more visually appealing.)
Anyway, this was really great, I'm going to be thinking about this video a lot!
I think that's a very valid line to draw!
I was going to say it's the Historical drama equivalent of the makeover scene, & then I realised in many examples it is a makeover scene (or at least dressing up for a rare occasion) ... Even when it's not, though, it's still an equivalent: makeover scenes (usually montages) are also full of torture (only it's usually passed off as humorous): waxing, make-up in the eye, exercise torture, like you said, tottering about on high heels, having food taken away....
Footbinding? I also have back issues and was born with malformed feet. I remember my marvellous mother, long gone, I’m 64, loosing her patience with someone who asked the perennial question ‘ehw…what’s wrong with her feet?’ And answering ‘I bind them’. Bound to try it again
And there's the whole can of worms with how Western media portrays footbinding. Oof.
This was something I hadn't considered! I thought there had to be more than the historically accurate thing to talk about but hadn't made it to any ideas. We already have the modern equivalent! Waxing scenes for body hair (see Miss Congeniality for that and others!) Everyone ("everyone") has this mental image of the sexy smooth woman who gets waxed or shaved (shorn? Haha) and the waxing scene makes better movies/TV!
Ahahaha I hadn't even thought of the waxing scenes! Didn't Outlander manage to include one of those as well as all the corset issues?
@@SnappyDragon hahaha no idea didn't actually watch the show and don't remember it in the book but sounds likely!?
It was in the book. The waxing that is. I didn't watch the series. It made sense in the book, both the waxing and how underthings were worn in the period. And hygiene was generally correct and not treated as a horror show, but rather just part of the storytelling.
@@SnappyDragon Outlander had a waxing scene but it was in season 2 when they were in France making friends with the nobles, so it was more of a rich people "come do this crazy new thing with me" deal.
@@eviesharpe1183 Yes, it was Louise inviting Claire to try out a new beauty trend with her, and the focus of the scene was less on the look achieved and more on contrasting waxing as this brand new upper class fad with how Claire knew of it in her own time.
Period dramas about our time will show everyone getting painful plastic surgery and Botox injections.
And it will start out with a morning makeup routine of inserting needles into every part of our face.
Cosmetic procedures in general, I think, will be the mockery of our time. Such extremes to look like someone else’s definition of beauty.
This was an excellent video! I agree that it's really important to not only debunk these kinds of historical myths, but also to question why these kinds of tropes are prevalent in the first place. In my experience, whether the topic is historical fashion or anti-science rhetoric or conspiracy theories, explaining *why* these kinds of myths and misinformation are appealing goes a lot further in helping change peoples' minds than just repeatedly insisting on the correct facts. Thanks for making this video!
So true! And if we stay focused on the surface facts rather than the underlying issues, we tend to end up with the same problem 20 years later in a different guise.
only ever using the phrase “torture corn”
Because it deserves to be roasted 😛
I'm glad you're discussing this rather than just adding another "IT'S HISTORICALLY INACCURATE" to the conversation because well, as you said: these are not documentaries. They are entertainment. There's miles of difference between documentary and entertainment, and historical accuracy does not matter to the average person. It's about their emotional response, not if it was spiral laced or not!
If we're thinking about this type of erotic depiction of suffering depicted in historical dramas about our time period, I assume it'll be painful sewn in hair weaves, injected fillers, and strapping on hip pads. That, and struggling, grunting, into corsets that the characters are pretending are not corsets with a flippant remark to another character akin to: "Women in the Victorian era were so ridiculous, they would make themselves miserable and tight lace CORSETS until they passed out just for a man! I'm so glad we're past all that!"
I can only hope the drama's props department will leave the box of the "waist trainer" with the glaringly obvious corset shape and structure on the front on top of the book that the characters were using to make fun of Victorians and their corsets. That way, someone can toss the box aside so it lands on the book of Victorian fashion that brought on the conversation about corsets to start with.
Then, once the box is on the book, the illustration on the "modern" box and the illustration of the horrible, evil corset from the Victorian era will line up, and the audience can see not a single thing has changed...
Exactly! I don't love that these shows don't take responsibility for the influence their depiction of history has on us, but just complaining about INACCURACY will go nowhere if we don't go into *why* the inaccuracies prevail.
So little bit of a long story. I used to wear a back brace because I inherited scoliosis from my dad. I would often forget to put the brace on (or just not want to) and it would always be accompanied by a minor pain like I could feel the brace was missing. A few years later, I hadn't worn the brace in a while because I was cleared by a doctor. For a while everything felt normal and I didn't have that awkward pain of not having the back brace. Now, the pain is back for some reason. I experimented with a few things to try and stop the pain but couldn't find a long lasting solution. However, I did find out why I was having this pain: however uncomfortable the back brace was on my hips, ribs and spine (I have a fast metabolism), I did like the feeling of having the sturdy support on my back, sides, and stomach.
I was talking to a friend at 3 am over text saying how I was getting a bunch of stuff for my cosplay, one of the things being a corset. I made an offhand comment about how maybe the corset will be something that's able to be a long term solution for the back pain. So long story short, my friend is currently fixing up a corset for me so that I can wear it on a regular basis.
I really love your take on this. Sadly, having actresses suffer because of poor costuming choices isn't restricted to period dramas. In many action movies actresses and especially stuntwomen suffer from them too. For example, skimpy outfits won't allow for proper padding and action scenes in high heels are a safety hazard on their own.
I am glad to see that the conversation about unpractical costumes mainly made for the appeal of the (mostly male) audience is comming up. But sadly we still have a long way to go.
I'm a cosplayer. I don't think actors and actresses make such a big deal about uncomfortable clothes, they're used with them. But for an interview, they victimize themselves because of course they do...
I think it was corsetiere Velda Lauder who said better to spend five minutes to reduce a waist by four inches, than four months of diet and working out. I have to agree
Or if lacing down doesn’t work for you (for example if you’re too short-waisted to squish), padding out your silhouette.
A garment-based silhouette is definitely much more changeable than a body itself!
@@ragnkja I've only got an inch gap at most between my ribs & pelvis and I can still lace down up to a 6" reduction. I don't even wear my corsets all that often anymore since my disabilities get in the way of getting dressed sometimes let alone putting a corset on. Granted I don't lace down that much most of the time, tend to stick to 2-4" reduction (since I already have a natural hourglass figure so get the extreme shape easily). But its still very possible to reduce with a short waist. Unless you've got obliques which resent you trying... My muscle tone has always been questionable. I don't know if its because my muscles are too busy trying to hold my joints together whilst my ligaments just lounge around doing nothing or something else related to hypermobility. But I've always seemed to squish easily. Even though logic would suggest my waist is too short to do so.
@@AlexaFaie Yeah, different people definitely squish different amounts. My sister is wicked short waisted, but squishes a little more than I do because I have firm abs. I've got some very squishy friends who can go down 6-8 inches without going past the "firm hug" level of tightness. I think it has to do with how much fat your body puts around the middle as well as waist length.
Oh yes. We should be horrified that the actors are given bad corsets, but nope. Thanks for pointing that out.
The icing on the cake of frustration is, I'm sure the costuming departments absolutely could make and fit good corsets if they were given the chance! But it's usually not considered a priority. I've read a total of one (1) interview where an actress talks about the costuming department being allowed to go the extra mile to make her costumes comfortable and easy to wear.
@@SnappyDragon Oh yeah. If there was a similar garment for male actors, I'm sure the costume department would be allowed to do extra fittings to make sure they fit well.
Loved this take. I've always just read this scene as the period equivalent of the "ugh, stilettos" and subsequent "thank goodness I can take these damned shoes off" shots in some 80s and 90s movies and through to Sex and the City. It's not about "accuracy" it's about a period-relevant shorthand for "the crap we do to our bodies for the male gaze" be it corsets, heels, makeup, etc. I think the current shorthand is false lashes?
PS: as someone who likes their corset tight, sometimes getting there requires a second set of hands and a couple of yanks that can be a bit of a jolt. But I *like* the sensation of confinement and mild discomfort it creates, as well as the sensation of removing it hours later.
Historically inaccurate stays aside, Where Bridgerton was concerned it didn't seem like they were trying to say all the women were uncomfortable in their corsets/stays, but more like they were demonstrating how controlling and kind of toxic Penelope's mother was. Penelope asks if she is to breathe and the mom makes some comment about how small her waist was the size of a grapefruit and a half at that daughters age.
Once upon a time when my natural waist was 24", I made a crinoline dress for Halloween. For one month before, each night after work, I put on my corset and by the time came to wear my dress, my waist was, in fact, laced down to 18". Giving me a 36" bust and an 18" waistline. The result at work was devestating. Properly fitted, over a chemise, I wore that dress all day, rested after work, and redressed for an evening party. I will admit that getting out of the corset at the end of the evening was "better than sex". But there were no listing effects and I truly enjoyed the admiration and envy.
The thing that drives your point home for me is the contrast in the way that corset lacing scenes are portrayed in the sapphic media I've consumed. There's none of the painful tight-lacing nonsense between the femme love interests, it's gentle touches or admiring the flossing or noticing how deftly one's partner can lace/unlace them.
The only time I've ever even seen tight lacing in one of those stories, is because one of the love interests is being laced into her corset by her mother to get ready to be presented to a man who she doesn't want to marry.
This makes total sense!
You remind me that I as a male should have pearls so I can clutch something when I am scandalized.
Very fascinating video and so glad you created something new. We are not really far removed from our ancestors but we at least have the internet and air conditioning.
Also I think they will mock how many shoes we have.
Pearls for all!
@@SnappyDragon But not before the swines!
I think that history might question women wearing 9 inch stiletto heals on their shoes. In addition to causing foot pain, this odd weight distribution can create issues in your knees, ankles, hips, and lower back. Heels also can cause ingrown toenails and contribute to the development of bunions and hammertoes. In extreme cases, heels can cause tiny stress fractures, which eventually lead to arthritis. it is also incomprehesable the prices women are prepared to pay for these torcher devices! For Example....
Antonio Vietri Moon Star Shoes - $19.9 Million
Jada Dubai Passion Diamond Stilettos - $17 million
Debbie Wingham Heels - $15.1 million
A.F. Vandevorst Diamond Boots - $3.1 million
Harry Winston Ruby Slippers - $3 million
Stuart Weitzman Rita Hayworth Heels - $2.75 million
Stuart Weitzman Tanzanite Heel - $2 million
Stuart Weitzman Cinderella Slippers - $2 million
Stuart Weitzman “Wizard of Oz” Ruby Stilettos - $1.6 million
Stuart Weitzman Platinum Guild Heels - $1.09 million
Stuart Weitzman Marylin Monroe - $1 million
I used to work with a woman who had worn high heel shoes and boots all her adult life and could no longer wear flats because of the shortened ligaments or muscles in her lower legs ☹️
People say she's crazy
She got diamonds on the soles of her shoes
Well that's one way to lose these
Walking blues
Diamonds on the soles of her shoes
Loved this video as always! I thought of something really interesting (to me) when you said: “It’s scandal!” My first language was the ever popular and oh so useful Romanian. My parents left Romania over 60 years ago and when I was learning to talk, my mom used to wear a girdle every day (in the 1960s). The word for girdle in Romanian (at that time, idk what word is used today) was - SCANDAL! (Pronounced a bit differently but the same word). Not even subtle but I never thought about it at all before your video today!
I love cross-language puns like this!
Another thing is that actors talking about their comfy corsets don't make headlines, so there's selection bias here too. Ruth Gemmel talks about her season two stays in Bridgerton The Official Podcast, saying that they were comfy, but no one picks up on that. (If you wanna listen, it's the "Growth Through Grief" episode). We only hear about the negative and the bad examples in the headlines.
Great video! I keep thinking about how I would handle a corset if I was in a historical production, and it would either be spending my own money to get a corset (and get used to it) months in advance, or it would be pestering the studio to get the corset...months in advance.
I would *love* to see proper fitting requirements being included in contracts!
Possible fashion torture scenes: people getting pants painted on, starving themselves for chic 90s looks, people joking about getting TB for beauty, lots of “sexy or not” websites/apps.
Thank you for bringing intellectual depth and philosophical questions to the historical costuming space. I don’t always share your ethical priorities or conclusions but I do appreciate having your voice around challenging me to think more deeply and ask better questions.
“I mean, look at this”
Invisalign commercial plays on my phone 😆
Bad timing, but also weirdly topical? 😅
Wait… you mean they don’t already show “women suffer to be beautiful” in TV shows and movies of the 20th and 21st century?
Case in point: there is an episode in the Original CIS where they find the body of a model who, it turns out, had mutilated her face in an effort to be within her required weight for her shoot, and another scene within the same episode having the Photographer yelling at a different model about “keeping her nose out of the troth” because she’d gained maybe one or two pounds.
This issue is already in modern setting media, and will likely never go away completely.
Perspective of a torture nerd here.
Now, we tend to sexualize pain, for some reason it's a long standing tradition. English is only my third language, but in French and Russian, the language used to describe violence is quite sexual. In the days of public executions and torture, both male and female convicts were sexualized, with a focus put on the men's erection. Also, the french in the xviii and xix centuries couldn't get enough of boarding school stories, especially in an English setting, for reasons similar we like to see the corset torture scene. People apparently read with great pleasure about boys being caned and birched till blood flowed. In the 70s Québec, there were anti-clerical songs joking about the how all the posh boys got raped at school. So, I don't think such behavior has anything to do with patriarchy or anti-feminism, but rather the natural sadism of the human race. In fact, I am kind of glad I'm a woman so my body's reaction to extreme embarrassment isn't as visible as it is for men.
That being said, the fact it sadism is a human instinct is no excuse for crappy behavior and productions who don't have regards for the safety and well-being of their staff, regardless of the hierarchy should be boycotted.
Honestly this is why I refuse to wear makeup and super fashion forward clothing to work. Idk why men can show up with crusty faces and basic clothes and don't get the same kind of judgement that women do. I've worked as front desk at some places and had coworkers comment about how I was wearing athleasure wear but with no make-up so i wasnt putting my best face forward to represnt the company. Meanwhile i had my hair in a neat ballerina top bun with a cute scrunchi and while i wasnt wearing makeup my eyebrows were brushed and not "bushy" which also shouldnt be an issue. And I'm an esthetician so i wash my face every day and apply skin care and pore bluring sunscreen so I have nice skin that i worked hard over years to achieve once. And i was wearing a form fitting black long sleave shirt with addidas joggers and addidas shoes. So its not like i came to work looking like a bum. I hate the amount of unpaid effort we have to go through just to go to an interview, or show up for work and look professional, to help with getting raises. Its exhausting, expensive and not something men go through to the same extent. that is why I save my pretty outfits and makeup for when I go out with friends or my partner. And screw jobs that make makeup and uncomfortable formal clothes the professional attire.
The amount of times that I’ve had to correct people about proper corset etiquette and history because they only know about them from period DRAMAS is so interesting to me. I love historical fashion so I make and wear a lot of historical corsets and I’ve had people make so many comments because they’re so misinformed.
It also totally feeds into the whole “beauty is pain” mindset that society has.
4:49 - In Braveheart, William Wallace wears a kilt, but I've read that kilts didn't actually become a thing until a few centuries later. Also, only highlanders wore them and Wallace was a lowlander.
I mean, I've only had one bad experience with a corset, after years of going to Ren Faires. My friend put on some weight, noticed it, and went to the corset place to get it relaced properly. But they didn't, they tightened her to the point of making her pass out a few minutes into sitting down, since all the pressure on her diaphragm made it impossible to breathe properly.
So, in short. Corsets are only evil when they are too small, or improperly used.
I mean... My own personal "beauty is pain" awfulness was my mother taking me to get laser hair removal, but refusing to all me to get the topical painkiller because it cost extra... So let's go with that. Burning hair off with lasers.
Excellent content, as always. Yay Fibro-babes!! Doing things is hard when breathing hurts. Or walking, sitting, thinking... I am a freelance costumer specializing in historical dress. I'm thinking of adding a "seasoning" clause to ALL bodies, stays, and corset contracts. In theater, it's easier, but FILM!!! Actors often get their costumes on the day of shooting and balk at the corset. More than once, I've had an actor say, "oh, good, the top is boned, so I DON'T have to wear the corset,".
Even if the “boned bodice” turns out to basically have a built-in corset, it protects her against tightlacing scenes.
Good on you! I would love to see proper fitting time become an industry norm.
When I was in college, I worked in the costume shop, and when we did period shows, the cast always rehearsed in corsets and underskirts to get used to them. And we always had the newbie or two absolutely dreading getting laced into their corset because of what has been portrayed about them in the media. And it was always fun to see their faces when they’re fully laced in. They realize “Wow, this fits and it’s actually comfortable.” And staying in them for a few hours to rehearse is a snap for them.
I really appreciate this take! I talk about corsetry a lot at work (clothing and garment trades interp at a historic site) and I often explain that corsets and stays were nowhere near as dramatic as the movies make them out to be. I had a hard time understanding WHY films and shows keep doing this, but your explanation makes a lot of sense.
I can only imagine the patience it takes to explain this to people over and over!
@@SnappyDragon I actually really enjoy expanding people's ideas about what life would have been like in other eras. People in the past had all the same needs and desires we have today, they just had different ways of meeting them depending on the technology available. And that technology informs the power signals of dress and aesthetics. Either it's fascinating stuff to everyone, or my enthusiasm for it is contagious, but generally people seem to enjoy my info-dumping. I love my job.
I did enjoy this one! Not in America so cannot comment on your mattress (although I am in need of new one) Having been an "alternate" dress maker for some years, I constantly heard horror stories of tightly laced, badly made corsets and at one point, refused to repair cheep and nasty imports. A well made, fitting corset can be taken to the "tight laced" sexy genre, but found the word did get around eventually that this was not always a good thing. I also had to cart a young lady off to the ED when she rapidly unlaced her badly made waist trainer and she passed out and could not stay consious.
The accuracy v storytelling problem invalidates a lot more than just the complaints about corset scenes. Right now everyone is (quite rightly) panning the Netflix adaptation of Persuasion and only one of the dozen or so complaints I've seen about it's use of language is how the modernizations of language connect to character, everything else is "How DARE you put all this modern slang in my period drama!" One person here on TH-cam even complained that the admiral praised the beauty of the garden in simple plain language instead of a flowery speech WHICH IS EXACTLY THE SORT OF THING PERIOD WRITERS HAVE ALWAYS DONE TO INDICATE A WORKING CLASS OR DIRECT CHARACTER (the classic simple soldier, or in this case sailor).
I would love to see a full on shift to tightlacing = kink in period drama.
I just. do people not realize that historical writers were probably using plenty of their time's modern slang? This is the sort of thing that makes me want to print out every crude joke in Shakespeare's entire body of work and smack people with it.
@@SnappyDragon
Some of the jokes and puns that would have been obvious to an Elizabethan/Jacobean audience but aren’t always as obvious to a current one are absolutely _filthy_ !
“And so, from hour to hour, we ripe and ripe. And then, from hour to hour, we rot and rot; And thereby hangs a tale.”
Homophones that are no longer homophones: “hour”/“wh*re”, “ripe”/“r*pe”, “rot”/“rut”. In this context, “tale”/“tail” also becomes a pun.
@@ragnkja it would be an EXTREMELY large printout.
One thing I've noticed about 80's nostalgia movies, especially since I have 1st hand memory of how the clothes looked in real life, every time I see the clothes on the screen, despite the colors, cuts, styles and fit being SPOT ON, the clothes still don't look quite right. They still don't look like what I remember them looking like; and, I've figured out why, and I've finally found a channel where I can share it and it be a relevant comment: It's the fabric itself that is inaccurate. Given the fabrics around in the early 80's, HOW it hangs off the body is stiffer than fabrics we wear now. Terry cloth shorty suits were popular, but you would never see that fabric now. POLYESTER was way different and microfiber didn't exist, but rayon was coming out around that time, and I remember loving it. That little difference in fabric texture and composition was distinct enough to change how the clothes looked completely. That actually clothes of the time, for lack of a better descriptor, looked and felt...uncomfortable, and sloppy. Look at an 80's movie and one made now to look like the 80's and that's what you'll see. They exact outfit, but one looks like it fits and is comfortable, the older one, not.
Something that has always annoyed me is in period pieces movies/shows where they talk about how corsets are super evil and all that. They have women wearing only the corset on bare skin, which would never happen. They would be wearing a chemise or something to protect the corset from dirt, sweat, oils, etc. I have seen it in a few media pieces and it's usually so they can show a shot of the actress's bare back all bruised and imprinted with the lacing and corset lining. Like in The Alienist the character Sarah Howard, played by Dakota Fanning, she's helped out of her corset by her maid and even makes the comment about men keeping them in torture cages.
Yuuuup they're literally creating circumstances that did not exist so they can talk about how bad corsets were. It's not like bras never leave marks on the skin either!
the poorest of the poor might have a very well used/ patch or possibly ragged shift/ or hand-me down cut done men's shirt so their might be a touch less comfortable, but they'd still be wearing a corset or stays. it might be well worn and well used and there only but they would have one at least for there 'sunday' best look. the very poorest might not be wearing one because they couldn't afford it but they also might be wearing other things that are off, like a pair of very ragged trouser despite being female etc.
It drives me so crazy in fiction too! Especially books that are otherwise fairly well researched and EVERY single one has multiple mentions of "uncomfortable" stays/corsets/mixing terminology cough discoveryofwitches (book) and foundthings series. Like, I enjoyed some of these books so much, and so much of the clothing descriptions are spot on...but the heroine still complains about those tight uncomfortable corsets (or in found things when she was like oh corsets are so much more comfortable because I have space for my belly unlike half stays/17th century stays)
Yeah, that's a surprising instance of the TV show doing better than the book did!
Hihi, I really enjoy these historic V vs modern V scenes. 🤣
Maybe some day there will be stories told about the tortures of Spanx. Rolling down and up consistently while the wearer can hardly move.
I'm working on more of them! They're a ton of fun to do.
Jennifer Crusie. Welcome to Temptation. It was Spanx, but a Spanx like dress. It's hysterical.
Imagine what they will say in movies 100yrs from now depicting the struggle of putting on a bra. "Oh, a woman must pretzel herself to get all the straps & snaps in place. And that underwire! Ugh!"
Fascinating point and its obverse: we love to feel superior to people in tight-lacing torture scenes, but the director reliably gambles that we'll identify with the person forced to fit themselves int o a shape that is palatable to Society... love this video already, V! And the mattress is tempting... never bought myself a new one...
So true!
I wish these dressing scenes focused more on the layers and construction of the costume rather than this tight-lacing torture. Next time I see tight-lacing in a period drama, it better be a character choice.
Absolutely! If we're going to see tight-lacing, let's see a scene where it's relevant to characterization and they talk about how the character is being Extra or Under A Lot Of Pressure or whatever relevant social factors are making her go to fashionable extremes.
This was great! Very nice to go beyond the "well actually" of the inaccuracy of this trope, to the why of the persistence of it. *clapping hands emoji*
I dearly love turning "well actually"s on their heads!
Wow! I literally never thought of it that way, but I'm so tired of the trope. So it good to finally call it what it is kink.
Not sure if kink really fits the bill since that implies something outside of the general social norm.
"Harmful cultural perception and narrative of what is attractive and erotic"?
Brilliant analysis. Thank you.
I think we’ll see portrayals of pre-plastic surgery, with the market drawings on the face and conversations shoot injections and bone shaping. We already do sometimes.
Here's hoping future media comes down hard on us for our ridiculous standards rather than going the route they have with tightlacing.
I wonder.. do we assume that corsets are ill-fitting because we never put the time into making bras that fit well or learning how a bra should fit? I would LOVE to see an accurate portrayal of a woman with "angry red" bra indentations along her ribcage and shoulders (because hello! That's modern accurate!). How bad is it that we compress our ribcage and distribute weight on two shoulder straps!
I also get so frustrated that the "ideal fashion shilouette" has to be maintained by some people through extreme body maintenance such as diet+exercise to have skin-tight stretchy clothes fit as they were designed.
I mean, wouldn't shock me if future period dramas go there.
Tbh I think high heels are probably genuinely not good for people, especially over long periods of time and/or particularly high heels, but that'll probably be overblown into "Women would actually get their toes removed so they could fit into a heel better!!!!!" (evidence: Barbie not having distinctly modeled toes).
That's my direct parallel with the absolutely baffling rib removal corset myth, like how cheap do you think life was/how good do you think Victorian medicine was that you think people would just do that?
I'm sure there were some women who hated wearing corsets and found them torturous. I feel that way about bras and shoes. "Oh you've never had them fitted/properly broken in." I wish it were that simple. I really do. I still wear a bra only when strictly necessary, ie when not wearing one is less comfortable than wearing one. The best I can hope for from a professional fitting is something tolerable for more than an hour of activity. I was even called to task about not wearing a bra at work for being "unprofessional" because OMG NIPPLES, AAAAAHHH!!! (despite the male boss who brought it up having far more prominent nipples than mine, a coworker in the same office wearing pants so low-cut that everyone could tell she wore thong underwear, another coworker who wore plunging necklines as well as crop tops, and an older coworker whose nips were quite visible through her bra and shirt... so yeah, fixated much? perhaps we need to revisit precisely who is unprofessional, now?) And I built my whole office wardrobe around "can this be worn with cowboy boots?" because "proper" women's shoes do not fit me well and I can't stand even running shoes pressing against the bottoms of my feet when I'm seated. Thank heavens I now work somewhere I can wear what is comfortable to work in.
Torturing yourself to make yourself feel attractive is one thing, go ahead and get those breast implants or that nosejob or painful hair procedure, wear the stiletto heels, tight jeans, etc if it mattes that much to you, but I completely agree that this whole torturing yourself because society says you're suppsed to (ie, this ridiculous notion that body hair on women is somehow unnatural or that the only body fat acceptable is breast tissue) or to "be attractive to potential suitors" is just utter bunk and we as a society really need to see to that.
Loved this (as usual) THANK YOU for calling out the subtext of tortuous portrayals and how lazy some of the tropes are in "historical" film. :-)
There are *so* many ways to show how much of a struggle life could be in the past, but nooooo, they only want to show us the "sexy" ones. I think there's an interview about Game of Thrones to that effect.
Spanx. 100% Spanx. (I also think there will be debate on if Spanx was a name brand or a type of shape restricting fashion and also *when* a certain kind of shapeware can be called Spanx)
Oh goodness, I can imagine the future fashion historians going at it!
"... we still have such an issue with the idea that beauty equals pain, that women and fem folks especially have to drastically change how we look in order to be appealing, or even acceptable for public consumption. "
SO GOOD ANALYSIS OF THE PROBLEM !! It's so f*cked-up.
I've always resisted that idea of needing to modify myself in order to be "pretty" - or even acceptable, as you put it. It's tiring, expensive, often painful, takes time and energy, never gets perfect, and teaches me (and all other fem folks) to hate our bodies daily. Stopped body hair removal 10 years ago and it helped me so much in my self-love. Now the only modifications I do are painless and for my own pleasure (such as dyeing a strand of hair green).
PS. One of the rare ads in a video that actually MAKES SENSE with who the TH-camr is. Liked the fact.
Suggestions for 200 years from now “ we are better then you scene “. TH-cam has been popping pret a porter shows from the major fashion houses in my feed ( the algorithm must think historical clothing and high fashion are related in some way ) . Most of the models look like victims of a natural disaster. Gaunt to the point of malnutrition. So food scenes involving models and people aiming to emulate models played for the monastic self denial in service of beauty.
Which would be hella disappointing if that gets glorified! But I'd be happy to see it criticized appropriately.
Bit confused as to why corsets were needed in Bridgeton. They're all wearing empire lines, they are very forgiving on the stomach
What do I imagine period dramas of the future showcasing in terms of today's clothes? I wouldn't be surprised if it involved society's obsession with female butts and seeing those butts in skin tight, pocket free pants.
I remember an embarrassing period of my life in my late teens and 20s when I was so confused about why corsets are so popular among some subcultures like goth when corsets are supposed to be uncomfortable and that is why it was replaced by the bra. It's not until recently when I started watching fashion history videos like yours that I finally learned that pop culture lied to me about corsets. I now have a few corsets of my own, and I found that I enjoy the feeling of being hugged and supported by the corset more than the cutting sensation of the bra around my ribs.
OMG I have the exact same bed tablet (the bamboo bed table thing? sorry, not a native english speaker) for when I'm bed-bound! You've been one of my favourite creators for a long time because I'm disabled and I've suffered from chronic illness and chronic pain for over ten years now. There are so few creators who understand what this is like and what it means to live with these issues (which is why I created my channel in the first place, hoping to show more disabled representation in a domain that matters to me) so I've always been thrilled that I was able to find you. I've used that mini-bed table almost every day since my dad gifted it to me two years ago, including today haha the joys of being stuck in bed while you're in pain and desperate for any and all distractions /sighs/
Getting the little table has been so helpful! I love it.
Not only inaccurate but also VERY annoyingly cliche in period pieces (there’s even some anime with that kind of scene and shows the girl screaming). Mainly I blame Gone With The Wind for popularizing the whole thing on screen.
My bet on what the focus will be for torture for beauty is high heels.
They are already a staple of discomfort for beauty even though comfortable and sensible heels are a thing.
The extremes will probably take the stiletto heels, platform heels and perhaps even ballet heels if those ever gets any mainstream spotlight.
Stiletto heels are already super ubiquitous and I would be *so happy* to see that ubiquitousness die.
200 years from now, "historical" movies will be all about spanx. and maybe brazilian waxes and botox injections.
and i still need to find someone local or have my costuming friend help me make a corset. swear i would probably have way better posture and less back issues with these mountains on my chest if i wore one :D
I'm reading The Pocket by Berman and Fennetaux. It seems that sewing internal stays pockets for characters to hide items in would be a much more accurate way to include sexual humor in period dramas.
And also just for plot devices! "How did you smuggle this concealed weapon in?!" "In the busk pocket of my stays, it's not like *men* could look there with any kind of decency!"
@@SnappyDragon Yeah that would be an example of negative policing too if they stick their hands where they didn't belong.
I'm writing an essay for one of my college apps about misconceptions about corsetry in film and this video has me rethinking my entire angle 😭
Thank you for your insightful analysis! Very thought provoking.
Future movie melodramas:. Struggling into too tight jeans (I feel like this has already been done in some movies...), am assumption that everyone wore sky high heels and "progressive" characters throwing them away, given the ridiculousness of the thought - I'd love to see a big stab at the Tyranny of Socks! Though more realistically, it'd be control top panty hose...
Yeah, shaping tights or tights that are so thin and flimsy that they’re practically single use.
I cannot begin to communicate how happy I was when it became possible to find *non*-skinny jeans again!
I know I've seen a few rom-coms in which a girl rolling around on the bed and doing essentially a table pose to button her hands is featured... I just can't remember which ones. 🤦🏻♀️
As someone who lived through the 80s (when skinny jeans *didn't* have any spandex), wearing those control top pantyhose you referenced really helped us put said jeans on!
Wait the word "torture" doesn't get you demonitised but the one rhyming with corn does? That is kinda messed up on it's own.
Tbh, I'd LOVE a corset-tying scene where it's the girl's first "adult" corset (you know, in the way you get your first bra) and trying to put it on naked skin, then trying to lace it too tight and so on and older women just chuckling and going "sweetie not like that" then giving her a whole lesson or something
Like, give me a magic changeover scene where the one changed is consenting! I promise it will be interesting to audience!
Returning to this video and shaking with rage now that Netflix has announced they will no longer use corsets in their period dramas
Maybe in the future they'll focus on the extreme fuckedupness of the cosmetic industry.
Shoes, painful shoes, the torture of choice. Or waxing
Bloody hell, the shoes. 😵
@@SnappyDragon especially the 4+inch high stiletto heels and pointy toes.
I used to work at a Renn Faire, and I remember one day hearing a conversation among the cast about how awful corsets are/were, and 'how far we're come since then.' Listened as long as I could, then pointed out that we still have corsets, it's just called 'shapewear' and other sneaky terms like that now, and it's made of spandex and other synthetics meant to squish you into shape. In a depressing twist, I was primarily dismissed and ignored.
And don't even get me started on the 'suffering for your art' mentality - it's just as bad on the acting side as it is on the viewers' side. Your costume doesn't fit? That's just how it goes. The audience/attendees giving you a hard time? Part of the job. You don't have a proper green room to get out of the elements or away from the noise? You're not on the pro cast, what do you expect? It's genuinely horrifying.
200 years from now, historical movies will have heroines getting gastric bypass replacing the corset scene.
Thank you very much for putting a real face on women and fashion, both past and present. Truly adds credence to the old line 'that we don't learn from history'! I can't wear most of the fashion raves I see because I'm allergic to them (including polyester and acrylic) but I think that plastic fake eyelashes and plastic fake nails for women will one day be looked at with laughter. I would hope it will be because we all, women and men, will start to see who we are and how we look as beautiful.
Frankly, my corset is more comfy than most of my bras.
This shall be addresses in the Corsetry Hot Take 😃