The Mormon Death March The Church Doesn’t Want You To Know About
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- This horrifying, avoidable tragedy is something the LDS church lies about to its members to promote faith. In reality, greed and purposely cutting corners led faithful saints to a horrible fate.
Join @nuancehoe and I as we read actual journey entries from people who took this perilous 1300 mile trek to settle Utah.
Read “Devil’s Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart Tragedy”
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Thanks for watching y'all. Really grateful to Shelise and Jonathan for having me on to talk about this important subject!
You’re the best! You really came with ALL THE FACTS! Nailed it, as always.
For people who want to read the book “Devil’s Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart Tragedy” of which this episode was based, click here amzn.to/46z5kjx
Thank you for being you!
I love the way you convey, all your knowledge & research. I subbed your channel & hope other do as well!
Thank you for helping me see the truth, after 47 years!
Love the collabs between these two channels oh so much.
My head is spinning and my heart is breaking. Growing up in the church we were taught some of the suffering of the pioneers, but not to this extent. It was definitely a watered down version…no mention of them being whipped! Hearing the true stories makes “Ew David” Bednar’s GC talk even worse! At 63 I’m so glad my eyes have been opened this year and I officially resigned my membership a few months ago. Thank you for your work in bringing these important stories to us!
Welcome to freedom. I highly suggest getting therapy to unravel what's been done to you. Enjoy some coffee and try a weed gummy
The church is unraveling quicker than I expected. The Lord gave me a dream/vision that the church is going to collapse due to a corrupt foundation, a few months later I left the LDS church and the Lord lead me through a deconstruction process by leading me to these channels. Thank you for the work you all do🙏🫶 An eye opener for me was when I told a missionary the vision I was given he questioned how I knew it wasn’t from the devil, yet they openly accepted many of the previous visions I’ve had…except those that shine a light on the coming destruction of their church…I get it and I didn’t feel great sharing it and I’ve tried to cushion the blow as much as possible but they all just think the devil has gotten too me…all you can do is sound the alarm🙏
It breaks my heart. I am a Utah native, non-Mormon but my heritage through my dad’s line is big time Mormon. Descended from Brigham’s brother John, with family names like Young, Spencer and Kimball. Orson F. Whitney is my great-grandfather etc.
We’re really healthy and long-lived and I’ve blithely given credit to my Hearty Pioneer Stock ancestors. But listening to this … it is appalling to me that their trusted leadership actually created the conditions that brought about such death. I will no longer consider it a cause of pride or joy that my heritage is ACTUALLY that evil leadership. 😢
In Filipino history, we had our own Death March, and it's never romanticized. It's always taught in schools as a horrible nightmareish period of history, and an example of just how much cruelty Japanese soldiers did in our country. Hearing about this history and finding out y'all had to copy it as kids or celebrate it is unbelievable to me. I want to cry for those people.
Thanks as always for sharing all this info that someone like me never would have learned of.
What happened in Bataan with the brutal Japanese forced march of Filipino and American prisoners of war is not what happened on the trek across the great plains and Rocky Mountains by Mormon emigres. The handcart companies were put together as a way to get people across the continent as cheaply as possible. The plans were set to allow these people insufficient food and even blankets for the cold nights. The handcarts were in effect large homebuilt wheelbarrows which were pushed by the people themselves. The propaganda now among Mormons is that these treks were somehow brave and heroic. And the treks are commemorated during the so-called Pioneer Day holidays. So poor people were lured to America from England and Scandanavia with promises of salvation and place in the new holy land being settled by Mormons and Mormon converts. So the whole project was planned and paid for on the cheap.
I tell my sister on July 24th "Happy polygamy day".
Heartbreaking and horrible. This really touched me, as a nordic never-mormon atheist. How awful that they came all the way to scandinavia to lure innocent poor people to their deaths. What evilness really!
They are placing the burden on the people who died rather than on the country (the US) that used genocidal tactics, including mass slaughter and gang rapes, to expel Mormons from the country. This sort of victim-blaming narrative does real harm to real people, even if that is not what its creators intended.
My TBM family loves to glorify my Scandinavian ancestors coming to America for the "one true church," but after looking into the history, I'm beginning to wonder if my ancestors were victims of human trafficking.
@@rebeccacall7348 Human trafficking now? Are you for real? They came on their own free will. Absolutely no one forced them. Get your facts straight.
@djr5372 That’s the thing with human trafficking. Sometimes, you can convince people they are there of their own free will, but it all comes down to manipulation and entrapment.
@@djr5372They were lied to about how they would get there and suffered!
Growing up I had a good friend who was.mormon. we had horses and rode in the woods a lot. One day her mom asked.mone if we would be willing to ride up on their youth camp and pretend to raid it. To reenact when the Mormons were attacked to make the history more real for the teenagers. Well, we said no because we were not willing to put ourselves, our horses or the campers in danger. We also did not WANT to traumatize these kids deeper into a faith we didn't think sounded true. We didn't tell her that part though because we respected that she had her beliefs. She asked us to watch some documentaries that were about to be on the TV and I don't think she realizes it was going to point out some of the ....cruelty and altered American history. After that I dug a lot deeper and found out a bunch of what you covered here. I am so glad we turned down their request.
My daughter did Trek. The hard Trek with very little food. I spent days sewing her two little pioneer dresses, bonnet, apron, and bloomers. She needed to look authentic. It's crazy how some of us bought into how noble it all was.
We all bought into it 😐 good on you for making the dresses yourself! As a professional seamstress, I know that’s a lot of work.
My grandfather, who has passed away, a general authority of the quorum of the 70.
Was very adamant about the suffering the church causes to others. Especially the faithful regular folks who follow blindly why their money is being stolen. It blows my mind how they worship these old men like their beacons of knowledge when quite the opposite is true, the suffering of the pioneers is still happening today with the churches, evil agenda of destroying people who have awakened from the mind control tactics of cults and organized religions…
13:22 My jaw just DROPPED when you mentioned them squatting on land set aside for an indigenous tribe. I feel like that needs it's own go-over. If you can find someone who is from the Omaha tribe to discuss this (or other issues surrounding the indigenous populations relation to Mormonism) I'm love to hear it.
I would absolutely love to interview someone who’s ancestors were affected by the Mormon settlers.
@@CultstoConsciousness I'll bet you would you charlatan.
it wasthe pawnee tribe as well..huge settlement here that where we got our name
Oh yes, PLEASE! The Truth would such a change! And SO welcome.
@@CultstoConsciousness the Quileute people been affected by Mormonism and the settlement of the west, further more, they had their culture exploited by a popular Mormon author
This was so profound for me to hear. My father always raised me to be proud of my pioneer ancestors specifically because my whole name came from a woman who made this journey. This show is helping me unravel generational trauma. Thank you for everything you do ❤
❤️🙏
I believe you SHOULD be proud of them Now even more that you know the truth of what they survived. :)
You should look up this author... same last name
Nadene LeCheminant
I was told to dig into my family's pioneer history (to help me through my faith crisis) and I found multiple stories that truly left me feeling that they never would have come here and suffered all they went through, had they known the truth- instead of helping my faith- my research destroyed it.. I've been counting.. I'm at 22 family members who crossed the plains between 1840-1899 to Utah.. and that's just from my maternal side. And the generational trauma is thick.
WoW .I have trauma from the Catholic Church. It sounds like they all used the same methods !😢
Cara! If you ever do a stream about pioneers or people from England joining the church.. I have found 62 Ancestors in my family who came to Utah between 1848-1899. Many of them were baptized in England and then came to Utah.. there are also 9 children among those and I have 11 ancestors who were endowed in Nauvoo. Recently deconstructing and have quite the story as well that I really want to share.
Thank you for reminding us of Generational Trauma. Every racial or ethnic group has it. We are all hurting in this world. We must help each other: by speaking and facing the truth, and by praying for healing.
So glad you’re talking about this. I’ve cried arguing with my faithful believing Mormon mom, as she was propagating victim blaming stories how the Willie-Martin handcart companies didn’t listen to the advice given to them and just pushed on because of their own faith.
Wowwww. Yep. Sounds about right. If only church members knew the whole story…
Solid gold, ladies! Having been in, out, in , out, then way in, and back out, then Temple going -in, then atheist out, I can honestly say, you’re nailing it on the head with this collab.
Grandpa used to lend me his “Work & the Glory” books, which I devoured! Not because they were faith promoting as he had intended, but because the stories substantiated how ridiculous it is to use these heinous stories to promote faith! I’m like, WTF? Can the church please stop with these martyrdom stories!? It’s gross. There is absolutely nothing inspiring about these people blindly following God’s chosen leader off a cliff. I don’t care what the promises are once you get to the destination. If you have to starve to death, get bit by snakes, lose toes to frostbite, or eat each other along the way; no thanks! I don’t need the “prize”.
Little does grandpa know, the stories in these books, filled me with anger, resentment, and hatred of this organization. I finally left in 2004 after standing up in RS and saying to the sisters, “Don’t you think our history is disgusting?Im not interested in living forever. I can barely stand my family in THIS lifetime, why would I want to drag that out for eternity? And also, I’m exhausted here and now; can’t I just call it good at the end and fertilize a tree?” I never got in trouble, but that was the beginning of the end for me. Never looked back. So glad to be rid of that ridiculousness. Religion is funny. It seems these days that it tears more families apart, than brings them joy.
Soooo glad to be out!
Sorry mom, ❤ it’s just never going to be for me.
I agree that religion is not truthful or hopeful. However, Jesus death according to Scripture for our sins, His burial and His resurrection the third day according to Scripture is the gospel of Jesus Christ and when we believe this, we are saved for all eternity. The Word of God has so much wonderful love in it for us. I never knew God or His son until I left Mormonism and started reading scriptures for myself. I thank God for His guidance when I left the church so I wouldn't throw Jesus away when I threw religion away. I'm grateful for the Bible ( the manual) He left us. I have freedom and rest in Jesus finished work on the cross. Just bellive in the three wonderful things Jesus did and you will be born again, saved and justified till the day of redemption. It doesn't get any better than that..Praying for you to understand the difference between man made religion and having a relationship with God above.🙏❤✝️☝️
I am very happy for you, live a happy life❤
Solid fools gold more like.
Great comment! What does one need more than what Christ gave for us by dying for our sins and in giving us the Holy Ghost for our journey through this life to the next.
This is sufficient to the day and no words of man can add to that.
9@@barbaravanriemsdijk8440
Thank you for sharing. My Great Great Grandmother, a widow with her 2 young children, ages 7 and 5 were in the Martin Handcart Company. They made it to Salt Lake. It was horrific. Thank you for shining the light on the realities verses the sanatized church narrative.
Thanks for sharing that! If you have any of her journels I’d be happy to share! You can email me (I don’t get notified of replies here) cultstoconsciousness@gmail.com
I used to love the hymn. Come, Come ye Saints. I would cry every time. We would quiet our voices, "and should we die before our journeys through ... I am crying now for a different reason.😢
I left the church in 1986. I was a missionary in 1980-1982. I was married in 1983. In 1985 I was teaching this young man about the church. He came to me with a book called “ Mormonism Mama and me “ he asked me to read it. I was blown away by it. To cut the story short, I looked up something’s about it. Which course me and my wife to leave the church. It was the Adam & Eve doctrine, and the truth about the Book of Mormon, I was sick about everything I had read , that was in 1986. I was excommunicated that year.
So about a year ago, I came across a lot of Mormonism and their faults and lies on TH-cam.
I am now in the last few months finding out more of what I never learned when leaving the church.
I am godsmacked of what I am learning. It’s good to see a lot off Mormons leaving the church now.
The leaders are big lier’s these days. Trying to deny the past.
Two missionaries came round to my house a few months ago, and I asked them about the new things in the temple. And I asked them about putting the hand across the neck, they told me, that that’s not done in the Temple. I told them that me and wife did it, they said they didn’t believe me. I also told them I went on a mission, and read the Book of Mormon 25 times. And they didn’t believe that. I told them to listen to your channel, and others.about the truth about the early days, when crossing a cross from England and other places and died on the way. And how the members of the church were very cruel to them and no love. I was 31 then, now 68 years old. It still bothers me.
They're probably rolling in their graves that you would believe such poppycock...the BS in this video I mean.
Good to know I was playing Oregon Trail correctly as a kid. It wasn’t just me not knowing you could buy supplies at the beginning of the game; it was historical accuracy!
Yes, Levi Savage went knowing what they were in for and feeling responsible to help. Great to see this "death march" exposed. For years my family has extolled the faith-promoting story of our widowed convert English-immigrant ancestor who dragged her children from England and across the plains with the Willie Handcart Company. The priesthood leaders ignored the warnings from Savage and other experienced trackers that they were leaving too late in the season to make it safely. Her two oldest daughters who chose to stay in Council Bluffs "lacked faith" - the Laman and Lemuel murmurers of the group. Meanwhile, Mom faithfully followed her priesthood leaders who promised God would deliver them. She and the children did survive but she suffered the rest of her life in Utah crippled with painful, weeping open soars on her legs (never healed). She was manipulated and should be praised as a victim and her priesthood leaders as criminally negligent. One relative praised Brigham Young and his inspiring love for the members because he shut down General Conference mid-speech and ordered men out to rescue the half-frozen stragglers nearing Salt Lake City. As if that was some great humanitarian act of compassion to stop the Conference (if true at all). Any atheist would have done the same and more (maybe tell them not to attempt it in the first place). It makes me think of priesthood leaders today ignoring the warnings of experts and leading young lgbtq kids out onto the plains (life in the church) telling them if they remain faithful, chaste, deny intimacy/love they can make it safely across for their reward. It is criminal.negligence. Ignorant, know-nothing leaders denying science, be it a weather forecast or human sexuality.
Mormon history is so fascinating! It’s wonderful that you’re telling these victims’ true stories and not allowing the church to romanticize them. We Americans romanticize horrific history wayyyy too often.
The Mountain Meadows Massacre is one you should read. I did a service learning project and a Professor of Native American Studies (and a Diné & Diné Nation) from the University of Utah educated me on it and how The First Nation were treated TRULY and not the white washer version we all learned in school.
Americans (and people all over the world, really) whitewash history too often. Information control to keep us subdued and patriotic.
Yes I did a google seach and all the sites that came back from LDS sites made this seem like the most heroic thing these people did. These people were just fodder to start with a large number of people and hope to get some to make it to Utah at the least cost possible.
Sounds more like the holocaust, did they want them to die 😢😢
@@heidifluteatl BS.
I missed the beginning of livestream, but rewatched it from the start. This story is utterly horrifying, and knowing that it is glorified by the church today is totally unconscionable. This is the story of a massacre in the name of religion. Every time I think Mormonism can't be any more horrible, I learn something new that shocks and surprises me. The depth of depravity these so-called "leaders" were willing to do then, and still do today, is criminal.
Absolutely agree. Thanks for coming back to watch!
YES!! This! The glorification of it all really gets me. We can acknowledge this happened, but for the church to say any of it was good and pious is disgusting
Telestial or even outer darkness for Brigham.
@@franciebelcher4594 You disgust me.
There was no massacre in name of religion. My ancestors had a dream to make it to Zion. Those who died on the trek were not murdered. They died from many different reasons, none of them having to do with massacre. You just hate the religion. Admit it.
I watched this Mormon documentary about handcart companies, and one tidbit they unabashedly mentioned was they would abandon small children that wandered away from the group. They spent minimal effort trying to find them and would convince parents their salvation was on the line if they didn’t keep going.
It absolutely broke my heart thinking of some poor little girl/boy shivering in the middle of the Western wilderness, hungry, listening to wolves howling in the distance, and wondering, how could my family abandon me?
The result of "Think Celestial."
@@loisdanes176 Thank you! Someone that shares my sentiment with this new, fluffy message with dark, sinister undertones.
@@rebeccacall7348 I don't know if that's how it's supposed to be applied, but it definitely seems like something that can be easily twisted to make the ends justify the means in any situation.
That is pure evil.
I grew up in Salt Lake and was raised by Mormon parents, but I never really believed. I would talk like I did to keep the peace, but the Civil Rights Marches seemed more real than the church stories and I just couldn't accept the the Mormon faith. I would really like to hear an episode on the Mormon Mountain Meadows Massacre as when I found out the truth about what happened I knew I was right for not believing in the Church. Since them I have learned so many reasons why I shouldn't believe in the Mormon Religion and I am glad I left blind faith behind.
You and me both. My TBM mother had once asked me how I can be so without shame when denouncing the church, and I responded, "Because I don't allow an organization that has its own issues with honesty, integrity, and ethics to dictate my stance on morality."
Historical Context
For my own sake, and for others, I'd like to add some historical context to this story. This is by no means a defense of any of the horrible, inhumane, and (I dare say) unholy acts visited upon the people that were persuaded to participate in this migration, but rather a further condemnation of American history and the way in which it is deliberately mis-remembered or re-invented when we teach it to new generations officially in school.
This event occurred before the American Civil War, before the Trans-Continental Railroad, and before the true glory of the American corporation, and thus before labor unions. The protections that we now enjoy regarding length of the work day, the existence of a regular work hiatus (the weekend), child labor laws, minimum wage (or the attempt of it), and government regulation of industry -- none of those things existed then, and this Mormon Death March was not a unique event.
In general, American Westward Expansion was a period where desperate people with little or nothing to lose moved to the frontier as they chased the promise of a better life. There were so many grifts and cons, and very little collective action. Even when the Trans-Continental Railroad was finally built, companies loaded people into cars like sardines for the 7 day journey by rail that previously took 4 to 5 months. The more tickets they could sell for a single journey, the more profit they could turn from one railroad train.
It wasn't until 1866 that the first labor union was created in America. By 1893, Congress finally passed the Railroad Safety Appliance Act that forced railroad companies to adopt technologies that reduced danger and improved quality of life for both workers and passengers, following years of public outrage at the horrors witnessed while traveling by rail, and that was strictly for railroad equipment only, not for working conditions, or fair pay, or child labor, or any other non-equipment issues.
We are all very familiar with the way that greed can motivate a company to turn profit at the expense of human dignity and life. What makes the Mormon migration so egregious is that it was led by self-described prophets in the name of goodness and holiness, for the betterment of human spirituality. But as described in this video, it was essentially just another scam of the 19th century westward movement money-grab, and (to me, at least) that makes it 100 times more horrible than even the greediest railroad corporation, most especially because we eventually made laws to curtail the bad behavior or corporations (though they still fall short), but religious organizations in America remain unchecked to this day.
I remember the first time I came across this historical information in regards to Mormons migrating out west to help establish Utah-I was blown away! It’s an actually insane story. The wagon migration process was already crazy to begin with, but to imagine thousands upon thousands of immigrants pushing heavy wheelbarrows is mind blowing & heart breaking. All I can say is…damn, religion is one HELL of a drug.
Why did they not use oxcarts or horse and covered wagons
In a nutshell: because they were exploited by the prophet they were following who wanted to profit off of them by cutting costs as much as possible and putting them into lifelong debt. I highly recommend listening to the full episode-it explains everything a lot more in depth.
@@pinkiesue84926:45 the explanation starts there..
The song "We Thank Thee, O God, for a Profit " comes to mind. (Miss-spelling is intentional)
oh damn, haha! you blew my mind, now when I read that word I will say profit. The profit commands us too!! Follow the profit, follow the profit, don't go astray!
@@danielvonbose557
One could say old Brigham used this death trek to separate wheat from the tares so he had the most brainwashed saints make it to Utah for him to hold them hostage thru isolation.
Nuancehoe around 1:18:00 - As an ex orthodox/believing Roman Catholic, I feel that I have discovered more about morality, spirituality, love and the meaning of life post religion than I ever knew when in religion. Thanks for sharing this difficult account of history.
Me, too. Left in 2010 when the Boston Globe article came out about all of the depraved evil among priests. I've followed Christopher Hitchens, one of the most moral persons you could find.
I grew up outside Nauvoo, IL. My grandmother was raised in Nauvoo. She gave me a cannon ball that she said was fired at the locals from the Mormans. She also told me the real reason they were kicked out of Nauvoo was because they were stealing cows and kidnapped young girls from Warsaw, IL. It was the fathers of those girls that showed up in Carthage and lynched them.
What about the Native American settlement the Mormons massacred?
Wow. I can't say I'm super surprised there...
That part.
I was wondering if anyone was going to bring that up! I know there has to be so much more to this part of history than was lightly skimmed over in class.
I know they did partner with some natives and dress like then so they the Indians would be blamed for their slaughter of an entire wagon train.Only the children under five were spared.Heinous things in the name of religion 😓.Brigham was nothing but a ruthless conman and many paid.
They may not even be aware of this. The church taught them a sugar-coated version of the Mormon story.
This is horrifying to hear, but not that surprising, considering all of the persons sleeping rough in Salt Lake City without shelter and a Church, Inc. that hoards billions and billions and owns tons of real estate that could be used for feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless. The abject cruelty created generational trauma.
Good old Brigham, this atrocity and the Mountain Meadows massacre.
I love listening to these two brilliant women.
The fact that their own leader not only let this happen but cauaed this situation just blows my mind. I just can't comprehend someone who is meant to be a religious leader have such complete disregard for his followers lives.
It would be worth doing another episode about the financial cost and colossal amount of volunteer hours that go into making these treks possible. It has created a whole cottage industry for people who build, maintain and rent out handcarts to stakes. My friend described for me how her home stake spent over $20,000 on their trek. Insane. Imagine what could be accomplished if the time, money, energy and manpower were focused on serving their actual community instead of doing Mormon cosplay every four years!
I was in stake yw leadership during the time that my stake last went on trek. Budget was 30,000. Most of that went to charter buses to take us from Texas to northern Oklahoma to a church owned ranch.
Any time I tried to speak to a leader about any difficult life issue, I was always asked first if I was reading my scriptures, praying and reading my scriptures. Blame game at its finest
I live in a neighboring county to Jackson County, MO (I'm literally a five-minute drive from the county line). My sister lives in Jackson County, MO. There is no Garden of Eden in this land. But there are several BBQ places, so maybe that's what Joey Smith meant??? LOL.
As someone who grew up in Jackson County MO I can say it was more than likely for the food 😂
😂😂😂 heavenly BBQ?
@@CultstoConsciousnessKansas City BBQ is definitely heavenly 😂
@@CultstoConsciousness It belongs in the celestial kingdom! 😂
The simple fact that this is Mormon history and Brigham Young has a university named after him is appalling. How did the people not revolt and take him down? And how is he celebrated man in Mormon culture. I just don't get it. He was evil and sick.
It’s because the Mormon church has hidden or whitewashed any sort of unpleasantness about their profits oops I means prophets. Then when the members find out and are angry at being lied to, we’re blamed because “the information was there all along, you were just too lazy to look for it.”
How can people be so dumb to place all their faith into being owned by a cult? I don’t get it.
There is a belief in the church, specially among the leaders, that if it’s done in the name of god, or if god commanded me to do so, anything is justifiable. These men, manipulative power grabbers, self appointed prophets, proclaim their actions are blessed by god, cuz everything goes in the game of building the kingdom… I’ve heard that from a self proclaimed savior “friend…” it’s despicable
Thank you for sharing this. By far this has been the hardest of your videos to listen to. I am half way through and am not sure I can finish. It is horrible what happened on that journey.😢
Thank you for listening ❤️
My mom is a former LDS member. (She was kicked out of her home and church as a teenager). I was never raised in the church but many of my family members are still in. Though I was raised as a Protestant and Christian, there’s still so much I don’t understand about LDS. I’ve asked questions and either don’t really get my question answered or get laughed at. I appreciate so many content creators here on YT and in other places that talk about and explain things to help me learn and understand what this church is and its history.
I’m very glad this is being discussed.
I helped organize the first youth pioneer trek reenactment in our state. I realize now that we used emotional manipulation and trauma bonding to exploit the pioneers experience as a way to get the kids to have deep feelings about the church. We told them these feelings were manifestations of the spirit of God.
Now that I know what really happened to the original pioneers, and WHY it happened, I am horrified that we reenacted this as a testimony building tool for young impressionable kids. It’s like reenacting a horrific tragedy like the Trail of Tears or the Bataan Death March and using it as a propaganda tool to indoctrinate young minds.
Yes, many early mormon pioneers were heroic and self-sacrificing, but the church leadership was not! This event happened because of inept leadership, their greed and their lust for power. (What could possibly be a more powerful position than convincing people you speak for God.)
The church put out a movie called 17 Miracles about these events. We all got teary eyed watching it at the time…….BUT WHERE WAS THE MIRACLE of saving these people from death (and things worse than death)???? Why were we celebrating little coincidences when a real miracle would have been the preservation of these people’s lives, and limbs. Hundreds died, many were crippled for life and we were celebrating that a starving, and likely delusional, woman claims to have found some miracle jerky in a cave?
I am actually ashamed now that I participated in TREK. The church is amazing at turning horrific historical events into faith promoting stories to gain members. So much of our history has been twisted beyond recognition! It’s an AMAZING PR move but NOT honest or honorable. This is only 1 example of this kind of deception among many! I was convinced for 45 years that polygamy was only practiced to protect and support widows! If you can turn polygamy into a heroic story you can twist anything for your own gain.
Beautifully spoken. Thank you for being open enough to be able to admit that and understand the manipulation tactics behind it. We were all duped into playing into their propaganda game and can’t blame ourselves, but self accountability goes a long way and I thank you for that!🙏
That last sentence cracked me up❤ You obviously have a brilliant sense of humour despite everything 😊
Shelise, your family should never make you feel guilty
Your history to showing others the truth is your sacrifice to the truth.
Love yourself for bringing out the truth. ❤😊
Very important topic, thank you for this livestream!
My maiden name is Rowley. I am a descendent of Ann's. Such a point of pride to my family, especially when she was mentioned by President Monson in conference.
I watched the John Larsen episode when that came out and I was so infuriated! I was already out of the church at that point. I live in Utah and feel ill every July 24th as this crap is being glorified.
Thank you for bringing light to these horrible stories😢 I wasn’t aware of all this ! there is so much darkness in this church. I am so glad I am so done with it ! Thank you for your amazing job Blessings to both of you
My Parents did not allow me to go to trek because they did not believe it had basic safety precautions such as adequate hydration, nutrition, emergency response planning, and sanitation. I remain forever grateful I was spared that.
I am a descendant of people who came through winter quarters. It was incredibly moving to see their names on the books. I wept at their graves. I was TBM then but my heart ached for what they went through. I got mad at one of the sisters giving us a tour because she was being so faith-promoting when I know how horrible and awful it was. I mean my family has graves across the street to prove how bad it was. One of those graves is for a child who was the same age my child was then. It angers me what they went though.
At 42 minutes as you’re describing the whipping of these poor immigrants who just wanted to show their faithfulness….. I’m trying to hold my tears in just imagining how starved and exhausted they all must have been. As a mother, I wouldn’t be able to watch my children suffer through this either. I’m gutted.
I believe I had a relative who died on this trek, a girl of 9 yrs. Time to research and make sure.
Edited later to add: Nope, she was 50 and it was an earlier trek to Deseret. Also, when is FamilySearch going to start including plural wife info?? Other than some conveniently fudged dates, how am I going to know which half of Utah I'm related to?:)
It would be good to honor her ❤️ so much generational trauma.
DNA doesn't have sides. It will idenfify who you're related to and then you'll know which side.
As long as they are also sisters by birth it's less difficult to figure that out
I just realized these treks are the LDS church’s version of the Hunger Games 😮😳
As a mom I cannot imagine. To give up everything, be stuck, nowhere to go, nothing to your name... i just cannot fathom
Didn't they let the men suffer and die more just to have more women to marry? Just like you said, the widows got so desperate they'd just marry anyone. The polygamists could just choose whoever they liked, and as a bonus, the women were grateful, no matter how abusive these men were. The leaders could 'save' the women from the horrible circumstances they created themselves in the first place, and were seen as saviours by their victims.
I thought the same thing. It's almost too perfect a set up to ensure men, elderly people, and children die while healthy young women stand the best chance of survival. Very suspicious.
You would think that the leaders who lent money to these people for the handcarts would have a vested interest in making sure they survived the trip so that they could get their money back. What they did to them was not only unimaginably cruel, but self-defeating.
Great point! First the people were told to tithe everything they owned to the church…then turn around and take a loan out from the church with interest…..so I guess if they died, they still had their money and if they lived, the owed them for life
Wow😢
Devil's Gate is an amazing book. Why is it that whenever the biased spin of the churh's narrative is removed the true stories are always full of senseless sacrifice?
Agreed
I just read it a few weeks ago. Excellent book.
Shelise, I love your podcast. I live in Manchester NY, (as I’m sure you know-the place where reportedly Joseph Smith saw the Angel, and was later given the gold tablets) and I have always been very curious about the Mormon faith.. what an informative episode regarding this part of Mormon history that is so often overlooked, romanticized, or plain left out.
Talk about a high demand religion 😲
My mormon friend invited a group of us to see a play she directed with a youth group. I don't know what we expected but it was a glorified play about this tragic event.
Yikes!
Thanks! Can we get a list of the books mentioned in this episode?
My Mother's side of the family is Mormon but we didn't know it until after she had passed. Turns out my Grandparents had left the Mormon church and it was something that was just never talked about. We kids always just thought Granpa was a devout Southern Baptist, which he was. This side of the Mormon's is fascinating to learn
I grew up with a Southern Baptist and Mormon mix family. My Mom and Dad didn't have strong religious leanings but their families did. It was truly interesting how the Aunts on both sides worked so hard to make sure I got into the "right" church. I have ended up having with a strong faith but not a member of either of the families churches
I really appreciate the thoughtful and in depth look into this insidious history! My ancestors, on mother’s side, were with the first wagon train to what became Salt Lake City. We used to be so proud of our family’s connections and history with the church. I’m really glad my mom quit going to church, so we weren’t too deeply indoctrinated. The journal stories of the cruelties on top of the hardships broke my heart. It reminds me that I have inherited some old journals from my family’s journey- will have to break down and read them.
This is so disgusting and painful to listen but I'm glad to know the actual story behind the pioneer crossing. It sounds more like human trafficking than the romanticized "perseverance" that I grew up hearing from family and church leaders. It's horrific.
What a shocking evil history, the cruelty of people brings me to tears and stabs at my heart also. This is intriguing stuff to someone who had no clue about cults a few months ago. I started looking into Scientology first and the rabbit holes are opening up everywhere from it. I'm hooked.
I'm not a Mormon but I'm only about ten minims into this and I don't think I can watch it yet.My grandmother was abused by Catholic nuns .So I'm just reading all the comments for now and it really is stricking how all religions seem to used the same brutal tactics.
my daughter went on Trek about 12 years ago and it was a horific experience, several kids were hospitalized for hypothermia, it rained the whole time and these tents were a joke, it should have been called off, its a wonder someone did not die, she never believed in the church but her mother is a fanatical mormon and she did not have much choice, both of my daughters left the church as soon as they had a chance
Thank you for sharing that ❤️
Smart girls!
Thank you Gals for bringing this information to us! Went and purchased Devil’s Gate and can’t wait to read it! I’ll make sure to have tissues! AMEN to this whole episode!❤️🔥❤️🔥
"Fellow Mormons grlping each other". I havr been wirking with a woman who has a dying son and the ward has turned their back on her, talk poorly if her, judge her, and onky bought her foid one time since i have befriended her. Such a bigger story. Maybe i can do an interview about how women are trated, actual facts, on the East Coast.
I am not surprised to hear of this.
Coming from a non-Mormon background, I only knew about Joseph Smith and what a petty con-man and massive grifter he was. I never knew anything about Brigham Young - total monster psychopath. It almost makes sense how someone like him would have seen Mormonism's culty opportunities to feed his baser instincts. This is the story of a serial killer and the torture he subjected his victims to. Absolutely sickening!
No wonder the ancestral trauma is so intense
Exactly. What is it, we know that at least the last 20 generations trauma can affect us?? It’s been fewer generations than that by far since these events even happened!!
This reminds me of the slave ships from Africa. In that there would be an "acceptable loss" with deaths & suffering which could be preventable. This story makes me sad....and sick to my stomach. Throughout ages the people claiming to be most holy have done the most unholy acts.
Yes, that is a fair comparison, although one group were forced, the other group spiritually manipulated to put themselves in that situation.
@@helenr4300 I was mostly referring to the people in charge.
I believe that one of those three boys who carried people across the frozen river was my Great-great something grandfather, David Patton Kimball. That experience messed him up, he was bedridden in his old age from the damage it did him, and he went pretty crazy. He thought his clock was a portal to hell kind of crazy...
I also got conscripted into the harndcart reenactment when I was 14, I think. I don't remember exactly where in WY it was other than we stopped at Independence Rock at one point. We were told that the men couldn't help on the Women's Pull because they had been drafted into the Mormon Legion. It really sucked because in my assigned family, there were only three women, and two of us were "dead." That left a rather delicately built 15 year old to pull the stupid hand cart up this really steep solid sandy hill BY HERSELF. I fought with one of the leaders to let us dead people help because of angelic assistance or some rot.
They made us go the 2nd of the 3 days on the same flour and water rations the Saints had, and about 1/3 of us got hideous heat stroke (middle of July in deserty WY) because of lack of water. I was sick from that for 2 weeks because it turned out there was something wrong with some of the flour.
My mother wound up doing the reenactments twice back in the 70s, and she says that both time's they went all 3 days on the flour water rations. Both times, the ambulance had to be called because some kid collapsed.
It’s terrible to know and my heart always breaks…I have to say I DO NOT HAVE BLIND FAITH IN CHURCH LEADERS! I feel so awful for what the saints making this trek went through.
I learned recently that one of my great grandparents immigrated here from Sweden as a renowned carpenter (he was the royal wordworker back in his homeland). Once here he crafted his own handcart and trekked it across the plains. That cart was taken from him by the church and he didn't understand English enough to tell them it was his.
This is absolutely heartbreaking. It's the very definition of human trafficking. So evil and disgusting. How the church can celebrate this death march is unbelievable.
No human trafficking. No death march. Brave, believing people died from all kinds of reasons because of dreams they had to make it to Zion. You would not understand.
The greed continues with billion dollar Ensign Peak hedge fund
Pioneers are part of my family's heritage, and I'm pretty sure I've heard some of these stories from my aunt (married into the family) when she's spoken about journals from her ancestors that she's read. Even as a kid I thought the retellings of the pioneers' stories sounded insane and didn't understand why my family was so proud of having pioneer heritage. Even in recent years, my aunt and uncle's stake trek has landed a few people in the hospital and I believe there was a death at some point during one of the treks in their stake. Yet they are all still so proud of their ancestors' faith and absolutely thrilled to be part of trek - two of my cousins happened to be able to go twice to trek as youth and my aunt and uncle have gone as ma and pa twice as well. I've heard them joke about some of the people who got sick during their treks making it "even more realistic" and how it reinforced their faith because "if this is happening to people doing trek even now, I can't imagine having to go through the real thing". They also made their own pioneer outfits for trek. (They had trek this summer, actually, so it's fresh on my mind right now.)
I didn't know that it was an intentional lack of planning and proper provisions that caused the amount of suffering that my ancestors went through though. That makes my family's admiration of the pioneers even more unsettling to me. To be clear: they're not just proud of our ancestors' strength, resilience, determination, etc. They're proud that our ancestors were so "righteous", "faithful", and "spiritually strong" that they were *worthy* enough to not only be "called" to be pioneers but survive the journey and help settle Zion.
ETA: My aunt's favorite part is the women's pull. She says it makes her think of one ancestor whose journal she's read and what her life must have been like, so it always makes her feel stronger in her faith to do the women's pull.)
They're proud because it's their heritage... because their ancestors lived their convictions.
You do realize that shredding lds heritage is part of the kalergy 'cide plan.
I have pioneer heritage too, and while it makes me angry my ancestors got snookered into believing in this cult, I do admire their strength and resilience to survive under desperate circumstances.
@@rebeccacall7348That may be, but they suffered unnecessarily under false pretenses and deceiving leadership. We can honor our ancestors by not continuing to align with an institution lead by evil brethren who refuse to admit any responsibility for the harm they have and continue to cause toward their members over the generations.
I don't think I explained what I meant very well. I am proud of my ancestors' strength, resilience, determination, ability to survive despite the odds, etc. What's upsetting for me is that my family attributes ALL of it to the church and believes that if the church wasn't true, if our relatives didn't have the conviction of faith that they did, if they didn't rely on the prophet's guidance, our ancestors wouldn't have survived. They give all the credit to the corrupt church rather than the victims who persevered and survived DESPITE the church who failed to give them the tools and knowledge they knew was necessary to cross the plains as safely as possible.
Part of honoring my heritage, I believe, is acknowledging that my ancestors were victims. They got through their hardships not because of the church that preyed on them but because they themselves were strong, intelligent, resourceful, tenacious, etc. Yes, they had faith and believed in Brigham Young, but the church and Brigham Young are not the reason they survived. They are the reason my ancestors HAD to find a way to survive. Crediting their achievements to the church that put them in that predicament by lying to them is what bothers me.
@@dsoule4902 the 'kalergy 'cide plan' what is this?
Yes family do recall significant parts of heritage - good and bad
Ugg! This was tough. I am continually amazed and disgusted by the cruelty humans inflict on one another in the interest of finance and religion. Thanks for bringing this to light
I don't know if you know this but Brigham pretended to be sick and road in a wagon almost all the way to Utah.
I know that!
Im always excited when a new eposiode drops!
History is so important! Yes it can be uncomfortable and downright horrific but its the only way to learn from the past otherwise we are bound to repeat the same mistakes. It's appaling that people will sweep so much under the rug so they can continue to snatch and hoard people's money and allegiance.
Thanks for watching! I agree!
My ancestors were pioneers, I grieve the treatment they had at the hands of lies and greed. Great work ladies! Keep it up!
Another great episode! Love your channel!
Holy crap! Pioneer stories were one of the areas I hadn't revisited with my new outside perspective. 😢😡
Me, either. I can’t stop thinking about the horrors those people, especially the innocent children, went through. Indoctrination is a hell of a drug.
These stories all have the same feel as the headline "old woman dies in house fire, bible on her nightstand remains intact"
That kind of stories about loved ones being found dead and their family members hoping they were not noticed until at least the portions were given out remind me the stories of those who survived Nazi camps or the Leningrad siege. But those trapped in Leningrad weren't convinced to stay there, they were besieged by enemies during a war, not people travelling in the hop to find a happier life.
Agree - death marches by the enemy is horrific, but the victims were always seen as victims. The idea that people were spiritually conned into putting themselves into this situation voluntarily, and that the church makes it a source of celebration not commemoration is added horrors
Little pioneer children, gathering berries for food
Little pioneer children, hunting chips for wood
Gladly helping each other, merry and happy and gay
Walking along, rolling along, on their way
- a Mormon Sunday School hymn I was taught in Family Home Evening in the 1970s
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teacher leave the kids alone
- Pink Floyd
My great-great grandfather walked from Iowa to SLC in the Benjamin Hawkins Company, 1850. His mother was a widow with seven other living children, her husband had passed away after illness caused by exposure on a mission.
Not just Mormons do the "You need to read scripture more/pray more" response to any personal issues; I got the same thing growing up in Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel churches. Anything bad that happened or that we felt was because we "didn't have enough faith" and we "called it to ourselves with our words".
This type of thinking is so confusing and damaging. Sometimes things are out of your control.
They even show brother savage in "17 miracles" a movie produced by the church telling the people its a bad idea to go that late in the season as he knows they will die and yes he is completely chastised for his opinion- which mind you they asked his opinion. Its tragic that had they just waited they probably wouldnt have died.
I haven't watched yet. Please, please, I'm hoping.you cover how much John Taylor begged for better axels and how BY told a group, within helping distance, to not help Willy/Martin because he wanted them to bring a textile engine and liquor. I heard years ago, but haven't heard source or anyone else talking about this. But the source that shared it was VERY reliable.
It's just so sad. Thank you both for an informed history lesson.
My husband's family on both his mom and dad's side date back to founding members of the community of Christ which I'm sure you're aware is semi related to LDS. They followed Joseph Smith's son instead of brigham young to Utah. His dad actually decided he didn't believe the church anymore. They're actually Jewish now. 😂 My husband has had a lot of feelings about this until he met me and I'm pretty much anti religion. Lol! It's been so interesting learning about what his family used to believe. Absolutely wild.
Thanks for sharing! Yeah the early days of Mormonism are….. a lot
Trek is such BS. I have no pioneer ancestry, and won't reenact someone else's torture.
And you wonder why leaders can take 6 figure salaries, while other "Saints" starve while trying to muster up a dollar for tithing.
I've really enjoyed your podcasts last nght and this one. You both have great chemistry together. You should start a podcast team and call it "The Sista-hood" lol. 👍👍
As someone with rheumatoid arthritis, I feel real physical pain when I hear these stories. It makes me sick to my stomach that they were abused like this and I’m amazed that they made it as far as they did. And for what?! I live in a time of modern medicine and I know I never would have made it very far. And sending the children ahead?!?!?? I am so angry that we are told these whitewashed versions and that those who made it to Salt Lake did so because of righteousness.
They actually did know about caloric intake in the sense that Clark's accounts of Lewis and Clark's expedition talk about the incredible amounts of food that their men had to eat just to grow on the Columbia River.
I have been watching your podcast for a while now. I have really enjoyed watching. I am not a Mormon, but my grandfather back about 6 generations from me was Joseph Smith's scribe. His name was William Wines Phelps. So the Mormon church has some info on my family.
Oh wow! That’s as far back as it goes!
Yes, my Grandfather was one of the people that came to Utah with Brigham Young. He is buried there in Utah. The church has some great info on my family all the way back to England.@@CultstoConsciousness
I want to make a comment but I am speechless. This is not worse than the worst part of slavery in the USA, but it is not much better.
Suffering is suffering. And both of which were preventable and happened because of greed
In both cases religion was used to justify the inhumane treatment of people. As someone once said, it's not the pain Olympics. Both were horrific and unnecessary. Although they're different, the victims and survivors stories deserve to be told either way.
Don't just take their words unless there is proof. If they give you a book, check the references. . The internet carries all kinds of lies. I am a mathematician and require proof of everything.
Slaves? Give me a break.
@@djr5372 These people were used by the thousands, in hundreds or thousands of cases right down to their deaths, for economic profit. They were beaten to submission and in some cases, put to work in jobs that were known to have intolerably high death rates. On the other hand, many slaves were fairly treated, accepted into the homes of their masters, and would even take care of the masters' children. It is absolutely clear that the average "faithful saints" were treated worse than the slaves with lenient masters.
Many slaves, even in the Bible Belt, were economically treated as expensive and useful servants. Most or all of the "faithful saints" were treated as profitable servants with no cost of ownership.
Sorry I keep thinking of things. In the cemetery in the avenues of SLC ( the old original cemetery. Still in use today) I took my daughter there when she was probably Jr high age. She likes old cemeteries. We found graves from the original pioneer days. It was for a lady and it listed her children. It said she was a pioneer who crossed the sea from England and came across the plains. Said she buried one child at sea and a couple more along the pioneer trail. It had a ship carved on it. Eerie and chilling.
You two make an excellent team, while being fabulous solo revelationist for freedom from the dark side of Religions. When I am ready and it's time to tell my story. May I humbly request, you Shelise & Carah to consider using your platforms and your talents as a microphone to other Hearts in need of Healing?
This is inhuman.
My first university was the University of Wyoming in Laramie WY. I came from out of state no idea what to expect. My first winter there, midday, while walking to class which was across campus, it was in the negatives and with windchill was like 25 degrees and the wind was harsh. We'd joke you knew you were in Laramie if you hung a chain on a pole and it stood on end in the wind. It is unforgiving and most of the time would start in Sep/Oct and last until May.
I myself never grew up in the Mormon church but did grow up asa Catholic, I too am an ex member of cult.. the things they have ignored, covered up and also enabled is why I lost faith in any religion. I loveyou three so much, and can now say am being educated. Thank you ❤
Wow! So sad! Thanks for sharing.
When I was in the church, I had not understood why the hardships of the folks who were forces to travel with handcarts were so horrendous. I now realize that most these disasters were just about as bad as what the Nazis did to the concentration camp victims as the end of WW2 ended.
It’s really awful when we can understand the context and why it didn’t need to happen.
1:37:14 this made me audibly gasp. I can’t put into words how this point impacted me. Thank you Carah ♥️
Thank you all so much for doing everything in your power to help people that still struggle with the Mormon religion!
Circa 40:00 "There were people with all kinds of ailments. There was a man who had lost his leg, very elderly people, people from Wales..."
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@cultstoconsciousness and @nuancehoe Wow! Unraveling more of my personal trauma and generational trauma. I had no idea how brutal the pioneers had it. As I understand my Grandmother's father was baptized at sea coming from Finland around age 20. After doing the pioneer trek he went back to help others. He saved my grandmother after most of her family died, when she was about 5, marrying her later. Everyone was told there were no more survivors, but one man told my great grandfather that there were others and he went. I want to get more facts, but what I remember hearing goes along with the YT stories I'm learning now. Now I know that the deaths of my ancestors were not only tragic, but murder.
Oh wow! Thanks for sharing!
@@CultstoConsciousness Thanks for doing this work. It helps me and others by getting the truth out. Blessings!