I get a sense of that this is the kind of open honest sharing that makes me still hanging around this TLC corner ..its like the telos or core .. dream ...our sacred needs ..an open heartedly atmosphere
1:07:30 this has changed dramatically in the Catholic Church in the last 20-30 years. The joke is we don’t have Roman Catholics they’re Roaming Catholics. In densely churched Catholic areas a LOT of church shopping for three specific things: - favorite priests - favorite music - preferred Mass time Catholic Church in general frowns upon this, but it is very much a thing. Less adherance/membership to a specific church, more going to what is liked/desired/convenient. God becomes more about the ‘me’ and the me becomes less about God. We will be humbled, one way or another. This I know, for the Bible, tells us so. But in some ways, it’s already happening- the humbling is within our hearts, manifested as anxiety, depression, and the meaning crisis, and externally, manifested as church closings and consolidations. God will do what he sees fit. Have Mercy on Us and On the Whole World, goes the Divine Mercy Chaplet prayer. 🙏❤
Neal, did you listen to my conversation with Ross Byrd? He is an evangelical and we talk about some similar things. I would be interested in your thoughts.
@@TheMeaningCode Reform and Conservative play with the liturgy in ways that very few Orthodox synagogues do. Very similar arguments and dynamics as you were talking about with Christian. Ultimately, I think you have to have very consistent liturgy with little room for innovation.
@@faturechiModifying liturgy is hardly a "major revision". When your plans for your children are thwarted by their wilfulness, their spontaneous creativity or their natural nature, do you never create, amend or delete "your will" to accommodate your love for them and their love for you? G_d did it for you guys in Exo 32:10 didn't He?
"The ancient Jew was a peasant, very close to the soil. He had never heard of music, or festivity, or agriculture as things separate from religion, nor of religion separate from them. Life was one. This assuredly laid him open to spiritual dangers which more sophisticated people can avoid; it also gave him privileges which they lack. ... When the mind becomes more capable of abstraction and analysis this old unity breaks up. And no sooner is it possible to distinguish rite from the vision of God than there is a danger of the rite becoming substituted for, and a rival to God Himself. Once it can be thought of separately, it will; and it may then take on a rebellious, cancerous life of its own. ...The unity falls apart when the sacrificial rites (the liturgy) becomes distinguishable from the 'meeting with God'." [C S Lewis]
I think it would be of benefit to consider the Anglican tradition, in terms of the engagement of the whole congregation in the worship and the Holy Communion, of te real presence of Christ and real partaking of His Body and Blood, though with nuanced articulation of what that is, and of the use of ceremonial and language register. It seems that Christian is struggling with a kind of Zwinglian reduction of the sacrament of Holy Communion to something that is not a means of grace or of experiencing the presence of Christ, but merely a symbolic gesture that people make, and which might even be considered to be not absolutely necessary. Given the differing understandings of the real presence, even within Anglicanism, I content myself that it is real, and the Lord's Body and Blood are truly present and partaken of, even if there is an inadequate understanding on the part of many of this reality. The word transubstantiation has been resisted as being an inadequate attempt using philosophical concepts to say what actually happens. Modern Roman Catholic theologians have suggested other terms, such as trans signification. Anglicans were always concerned to avoid the common misunderstanding that the Lord was being repeatedly re crucified on the altar. This is of course a vast subject to ponder, but I think Karen is on the right track on the necessity of focusing on our love for God Who, in Jesus Christ, calls us to the closest personal relationship with Himself. Also, to emphasize that the sacraments, baptism and Holy Communion, are something that God does for us, as means of grace, not mere gestures that we make to indicate our belief in God.
Thank you, Karen. As a longtime fan of Japan and having visited Japan, your inside story of the translation of the Bible into Japanese is fascinating. I consider the LXX and NT in Greek the original Christian Bible, in the same way that the Quran is only authentic in Arabic. Is there any genuine way to translate a sacred text into a different language, a different culture?
Wycliffe translators do their very best. We also have the incredible blessing of concordances and lexicons where we can look at the deeper meaning of the original text.
I get a sense of that this is the kind of open honest sharing that makes me still hanging around this TLC corner ..its like the telos or core .. dream ...our sacred needs ..an open heartedly atmosphere
Something ineffable ❤
Thank you Karen and Christian! Delightful conversation.
1:07:30 this has changed dramatically in the Catholic Church in the last 20-30 years. The joke is we don’t have Roman Catholics they’re Roaming Catholics. In densely churched Catholic areas a LOT of church shopping for three specific things:
- favorite priests
- favorite music
- preferred Mass time
Catholic Church in general frowns upon this, but it is very much a thing. Less adherance/membership to a specific church, more going to what is liked/desired/convenient. God becomes more about the ‘me’ and the me becomes less about God.
We will be humbled, one way or another. This I know, for the Bible, tells us so. But in some ways, it’s already happening- the humbling is within our hearts, manifested as anxiety, depression, and the meaning crisis, and externally, manifested as church closings and consolidations. God will do what he sees fit. Have Mercy on Us and On the Whole World, goes the Divine Mercy Chaplet prayer. 🙏❤
Neal, did you listen to my conversation with Ross Byrd? He is an evangelical and we talk about some similar things. I would be interested in your thoughts.
Also, the me centered thing is this intense shift into consumerism in church, it’s everywhere
It's funny to me how much this relates to Reform and Conservative Judaism.
@@faturechi Do you want to say more?
@@TheMeaningCode Reform and Conservative play with the liturgy in ways that very few Orthodox synagogues do. Very similar arguments and dynamics as you were talking about with Christian. Ultimately, I think you have to have very consistent liturgy with little room for innovation.
@@faturechi "little room for innovation" and no room for God, Christ or the Holy Spirit to create, amend or delete?
@@patrickwagner2978 Why does G-d need to make revisions? Certainly major revisions.
@@faturechiModifying liturgy is hardly a "major revision". When your plans for your children are thwarted by their wilfulness, their spontaneous creativity or their natural nature, do you never create, amend or delete "your will" to accommodate your love for them and their love for you? G_d did it for you guys in Exo 32:10 didn't He?
"The ancient Jew was a peasant, very close to the soil. He had never heard of music, or festivity, or agriculture as things separate from religion, nor of religion separate from them. Life was one. This assuredly laid him open to spiritual dangers which more sophisticated people can avoid; it also gave him privileges which they lack. ... When the mind becomes more capable of abstraction and analysis this old unity breaks up. And no sooner is it possible to distinguish rite from the vision of God than there is a danger of the rite becoming substituted for, and a rival to God Himself. Once it can be thought of separately, it will; and it may then take on a rebellious, cancerous life of its own. ...The unity falls apart when the sacrificial rites (the liturgy) becomes distinguishable from the 'meeting with God'." [C S Lewis]
Liturgy has been the strongest means for my re-enchantment late in life. Totally unexpected but totally real.
❤
I think it would be of benefit to consider the Anglican tradition, in terms of the engagement of the whole congregation in the worship and the Holy Communion, of te real presence of Christ and real partaking of His Body and Blood, though with nuanced articulation of what that is, and of the use of ceremonial and language register. It seems that Christian is struggling with a kind of Zwinglian reduction of the sacrament of Holy Communion to something that is not a means of grace or of experiencing the presence of Christ, but merely a symbolic gesture that people make, and which might even be considered to be not absolutely necessary. Given the differing understandings of the real presence, even within Anglicanism, I content myself that it is real, and the Lord's Body and Blood are truly present and partaken of, even if there is an inadequate understanding on the part of many of this reality. The word transubstantiation has been resisted as being an inadequate attempt using philosophical concepts to say what actually happens. Modern Roman Catholic theologians have suggested other terms, such as trans signification. Anglicans were always concerned to avoid the common misunderstanding that the Lord was being repeatedly re crucified on the altar. This is of course a vast subject to ponder, but I think Karen is on the right track on the necessity of focusing on our love for God Who, in Jesus Christ, calls us to the closest personal relationship with Himself. Also, to emphasize that the sacraments, baptism and Holy Communion, are something that God does for us, as means of grace, not mere gestures that we make to indicate our belief in God.
Thank you, Karen. As a longtime fan of Japan and having visited Japan, your inside story of the translation of the Bible into Japanese is fascinating. I consider the LXX and NT in Greek the original Christian Bible, in the same way that the Quran is only authentic in Arabic. Is there any genuine way to translate a sacred text into a different language, a different culture?
Wycliffe translators do their very best. We also have the incredible blessing of concordances and lexicons where we can look at the deeper meaning of the original text.
There is a subtle balance between individual, communal or clerical participation ;-0