Fischl doesn't trigger Hyperbloom consistently. Oz has a priority for targeting and bloom seeds are the last in that priority list. Thats why Kuki is used as the Hyperbloom trigger.
True. She's the one character I regret pulling the most. Guess those laser flowers only have eyes for their little master and nobody else. Would be cool if they'd stay on-field but fire indiscriminately when swapping off Klee just to match her lore haha.
Klee is the perfect example for what makes off-fielders work, since she just doesn't have it. I'm kinda surprised Vars didn't mention her in the video.
Actually, like imagine if It didn’t stop as soon as you switched. You could pair Klee with xingqui or yelan (or both) and you would be doing a lot of damage.
@@FischlInsultsMePls I don't think Klee would be strictly better than Xiangling if it worked like that. Xiangling Pyronado strikes the perfect balance with applying pyro enough to not overtake hydro from units like childe or xingqiu. Klee would have maybe worked better for melt teams though
Imo, hoyo really should release more off-field units. What makes genshin's combat so good is the elemental system and the fact you can switch between units to setup and trigger the reactions. Releasing more off-field units builds on top of that strength.
@@FischlInsultsMePls yeah,there's only Thoma who's actually cracked in burgeon and kuki for hyperbloom. Aside from them i can't think of anyone in the same tier as the 1.0 4 stars for off field
Yeah, just the fact that you can only have one character on field despite having four characters already indicates that the game should have more off-field characters than on-field ones. That said, as someone who hasn't had the opportunity to train an on-fielder, I hope they don't go too far down the other end. It feels terrible having no on-fielder, I can't decide who should stay on-field in my Kazuha National and Reverse Melt teams 😔
Support I feel is a little too broad of a term, but it is accurate. I'd normally break the Support group into these subgroups: crowd control, defensive utility, battery, buffs/debuffs. So including the on-field DPS and off-field DPS roles, that's 6 total roles. The best characters are the ones that cover multiple roles. This is what makes Bennett + Xingqiu the best characters in the game. Bennett covers 3 roles of defensive utility, battery, and buffs. Xingqiu covers multiple roles of off-field DPS, defensive utility, and to some extent also as a debuffer (with c2) and a battery, though these last 2 roles mainly see their value in double hydro teams.
I know reaction needs 2 characters, but a big part of xingqiu/xiangling value is the reactions they can bring too, so for me that's another area an character can or cannot cover
actually a lot of the time shinobu isn't in hyperbloom for heling shes there cuz her skill detonates the blooms perfectly every tick while putting electro on enemies every 2 ticks
@@prestige934 Excuse me but what?.. The thing is you can build Kuki full em because of her 2 ascentions stat that gives you more healing from pure em build and dendro reactions love em and characters leveled as high as possible what is also good for Kuki who can take advantage form hp. Also her 2nd constelation makes her electro ring stay longer = more electro application in which she is already good at. Additionaly she is a 4* unit so she is easier to get (objectively) than a 5* character. + aside from elemental reactions you get a ton of healing so you don't need a designated healer in a team. Yes, Raiden would be good but she would need full em build too. In Raiden team you would need a Kokomi or Barbara (who can get you frozen) or newly released Yaoyao to stay alive or be that good at dodging. And Dori... we don't talk about Dori.
@@prestige934 Dori's burst has a short uptime making her so much worse than Kuki. You would also need a lot of hydro (maybe Childe?) + dendro to make use of her fast hyperbloom procs
I much prefer "off field dps" to "sub-dps", because a lot of off-field characters can sometimes be doing the majority of a team's damage. Also, teams based around off-fielders are WAY more interesting and unqiue than teams focused around on-fielders.
Yeah,hypercarry teams are kinda boring while quickswap with off field dps is way more fun cuz you can try other combos and roations while not ruining your reactions
and these terms arent interchangable...... subdps =/= offfield maindps =/= onfield like national is team where there is off field maindps with a subdps/support onfield and hu tao reverse-vape is onfield main dps with off field subdps
True, like in Childe national, Xiangling is your main dps. And to add on to your second point, off-fielders tend to be the most flexible, add to overall team performance, and require far less investment to be effective than a lot of on-field main dps. Like with Xiangling, in the first example I mentioned she's a main dps but in reverse melt with Xiangling-Bennet-Kaeya-Rosaria she's the pyro applicator enabling Kayea's and Rosaria's melts.
Yea, I feel like the "main/sub dps" term is too broad. Like for example who's the dps in Sucrose National or Taser team? It's not Sucrose right? That's why I (and theorycrafters too) find the term On Field/Off Field dps better
"having Qiqi and Noelle would be excessive" that's half of my early game party! I eventually dropped Noelle for Diona but if I needed real healing it was Qiqi to the rescue.
Personally, I hope they create more flexible characters that can function both on-field and off-field. Raiden, Nahida, Sucrose, Ganyu, Ayato, and Kokomi are all good examples of that. I just love when we can invest in a character and make them the star of a team, but they can also function as off-fielders and allow for interesting new team comps even if they're not the best person for the job. On-field characters like Childe, Wanderer, and Alhaitham are really fun to play, but it's a shame that they mechanically play the same way regardless of what supports you pair them with. On the flip side I find characters that exist solely to make 1-2 other characters stronger extremely boring, like Faruzan, Sara, and Gorou.
I think the problem is all down to Xingqiu and Xiangling they set the standard for sub DPS characters by doing more damage from off feild than some characters like Diluc were doing on feild. Thus all future sub DPS including 5 stars like Yelan/Yae had to compete with those damage numbers. Thus sub DPS ended up being the real carry role.
Here's a comprehensive list of the character roles in Genshin as I understand them, noting that there is a lot of overlap and many characters can fulfil several of these roles: - Main On-fielder: The character that's spending the most time on field, usually driving reactions. (e.g. Keqing, Ayaka, Ganyu, Hu Tao) - Off-Field Enabler: This is a character that can apply their element quickly and effectively from off field, enabling the main on-fielder to execute reactions effectively. Most of the characters that fill this role also fill others, but it's still very important to acknowledge when a character is good at this. (e.g. Shinobu, Kokomi, Nahida, Mona) -Off-Field DPS: Any character than can deal a respectable amount of damage with abilities that persist when they leave the field. Most of the characters that fill this role are also good off-field enablers. (e.g. Raiden, Miko, Xingqiu, Xiangling, Fischl) -Survivability Supports: Characters that help the team stay alive. Includes shielders (e.g. Zhongli, Layla) and healers (e.g. Kokomi, Shinobu, Qiqi) -Damage Supports and Buffers: Characters that enhance the damage output of other teammates. (e.g. Bennett, Faruzan, Yun Jin, Viridescent Venerer users) Here are other team roles I hear people talk about, but didn't feel were worth including in the list above: -On-Field Enabler: This is a subtype of Main On-fielder that's there primarily for quick elemental application to react with damage from Off-Fielders. This fits entirely within the definition of Main On-Fielder so I left it out for fear of being redundant. -Burst DPS: A special type of On-Fielder that is not meant to take up a lot of field time, instead doing heavy front-loaded damage in only a few seconds. This is a niche role used only when your Main On-Fielder has severely long periods of down time. This was seen much more often in the earlier days of Genshin. However, nowadays, people have come up with much more elegant ways of dealing with a Main On-Fielder's downtime. This isn't something you'll see very often. -Battery: While energy generation can be very important, I left this out because the concept of a "battery" in Genshin is not as cut and dry as the team roles I described above. Whether or not a character can be considered a battery is heavily dependent upon the team they're on. It's very situational, so just know that if a character on your team has trouble with Burst uptime, you may want to pair them with another character of the same element to generate more energy for them. Anemo users can also generate particles for other elements via Swirl infusions such as Kazuha's Skill and Burst. I will reiterate that many characters in Genshin can fill more than one of these roles. So if I used a character as an example for one of them, it doesn't mean that's all they're good for. Feel free to share your thoughts and let me know if I missed something that should be on here.
@@tunamayo2823 For a Pyro enabler, Xiangling is realistically your only good option. Her Pyro application comes primarily from her Burst and she does have big time energy issues so she's best paired with another Pyro teammate. Bennett is a solid option, as he can buff her Pyronado to great effect. Electro enablers are a dime a dozen, and it's really gonna depend on what you need. Miko, Raiden, and Fischl are all great for Electro application and damage alike. If you need electro application in a wide AOE, such as in a Hyperbloom setup, Shinobu is a solid option, and her healing is good enough that she can realistically keep your team alive by herself. With Cryo off-fielders you've got a couple options. Diona's Burst has very consistent application in a wide AOE while also healing and, with her C6, buffing the party's EM. But with an energy cost of 80 you will likely need to give her some help with energy. Layla's shield will slowly release Cryo projectiles through its duration, although her Burst will speed this up considerably and has an energy cost of only 40, making her a solid option that can realistically keep your team alive on her own. For higher damage options, Rosaria and Ganyu both have good AOE Cryo application if you can keep their Bursts charged up.
@@tunamayo2823 Rosaria works very well with Favonius Lance as her weapon. As for artifacts I would recommend 4 piece Nobless Oblige. A safe bet would be to shoot for around 150-160% Energy Recharge to keep uptime on her Burst. Otherwise, just give her a Crit Rate circlet, Cryo goblet, and either an ATK% sands or ER if you still need more. Then just look for Crit Rate in all the substats. Try and get some Crit DMG if you can, but don't stress about it, Crit Rate is far more important for Rosaria.
I've noticed opinions slowly change to this over time with some people outright saying they are more interested in off fielders they can use for many different setups with a lot of value over in field dps
You only have 1 on fielder at a time , you just need to choose the optimal on fielder that accentuates your off fielders potential, for example Childe for International , Hu Tao/Yoimiya/Hyperbloom for double hydro etc
that is also why my main goal when I began playing the game was to get 1 main dps from each element to begin with, and from that point only going for characters I want for reasons other then filling the spot I need them to. I've got wanderer and xiao becuase I love their playstyles, but I got xiao first so I didn't really need wanderer when I got him. At the point I'm at right now, since I've been clearing the Abyss fully since 2.6, I only go for characters I really like. Even though it's a gacha game, the resources aren't high for getting characters as I'm not someone who purchases top-ups all the time. I only go for welkin and battle pass, and even then it's not all the time. Basically, at this point I'm truly only missing a proper dendro main dps, and al-haitham will probably be the character im going for, but Yelan is more important right now haha. While summoning and getting new characters is fun, I like investing and getting the maximum potential out of the characters I already have, including weapons if I can get them for the characters I use.
I've always enjoyed off-fielders since I feel more like I am utilizing the full extent of the game's reaction system. Raiden Shogun is one of my favorite units cause she plays like both a dedicated hypercarry, and a really good off-fielder.
If Klee's burst were to work off field, she would probably be considered a much more powerful character than what she currently is, but because it doesn't, it forces her to compete against other on field damage dealers like the ones you stated, making her marginally weak. That is pretty much how powerful the role of sub-dps is. Also, to me you sound fine in this video, if anything, it may sound like someone's first few videos if you listen closely, but it'll still pretty good.
Maybe it’s because yae and Nahida are some of my favorite units but I love off field dps characters a lot and I feel like they help make team building more fun
You're definitely right about everything you said. I've recently found that I'm always pulling on off field dps characters a lot more than on field (with the exception of characters I love or a dps role for an element I don't have). This is why I was so excited for Dehya at first because that's what she looks like. I also wanted Yae Miko as my sub dps for electro because I didn't really like how Shinobu played and I just really REALLY don't like Fischl and I'm not building her so Yae was perfect. But my point being that I find myself using the same team over and over that I crave characters that fill that role so I can add them to that list of characters I'll always use. Which is why I feel bad for units like Diluc, Heizou, Fischl, Xinyan, etc., who I'll never build because I have someone better.
@@SHAM11_22 Yeah that probably sounded rude to those who like her, my bad. From the first time I got her I guess she just wasn't cool to me lol. When I found out her burst was basically just repositioning Oz I benched her. I didn't really like how one note her play style was at the time (I also just liked almost every other character better). On top of that her personality for me is a hit or miss. I can definitely enjoy her when she's on screen (especially when Oz is with her) but she's just too much if that makes sense and can be a tiny bit cringe. But this is all my opinion. I don't hate her or anything, she's just someone I won't bother using even though I am aware that she's really strong.
Characters that are worse versions of another character is fine as long as the worse character is a 4 star and the better version is a 5 star, because the rarity balances out the usefulness.
Part of me wishes crystallize were better so that Albedo could consolidate both the sub dps role along with either defensive utility or something more than just being used for his off-field dps and occasional EM buff via his ascension passive. It's a little sad that as the first real premier 5* dedicated sub dps, he hasn't really found a home outside of mono-geo, and I'd mostly chalk that up to crystallize being a generally bad reaction. His appeal of being the only real off-field geo dps is kinda lost when the only benefits you get out of it are Gorou and geo resonance. Imagine if Albedo were *any* other element besides geo, he'd be borderline broken between his relatively high off-field dps, minimal field time and setup, along with the ability to facilitate noteworthy reactions or even trigger those reactions himself.
There's another type of character called "driver" which is similar to dps because they stay on field for longer period of time but doesn't really do the most damage but increase others damage while still being onfield
Another that makes sub dps much more powerful compared to other types of support is their involvement in the team’s elemental reaction. Some shielder (like Zhongli) can only shield, and some dmg buffer (like Bennett) can only buff, but every single one of the sub dps characters contributes to creating elemental reactions in some shapes or forms (maybe not Albedo, but that’s more because he’s a geo character).
Hard disagree on the swiss army knife take. They definitely SHOULD NOT make the party more deficient. That just forces you to take specific characters. And if you don’t have those characters you just can’t be efficient. It just worsens the “dps check” gameplay instead of allieviating it.
On your first channel you do a mash-up of all characters of a class. Can you do the same here, but for each weapon type (since DPS classes are so vaguely defined)? Attack talent, Skill, Burst, A1 and A4 passives.
It would have make sense to mention quickswap dps that require low field time but arent off fielder either. That seem to be one of the possibility to build more complex rotation and bring more units to play.
I agree with you on the treatment of early 5 stars in the current version. While I do love them (always will be a Klee main) I suspect Hoyoverse did not want them to be wholly overpowered. While this does appear counterintuitive to sales, their rarity and limited runs will always entice players, especially at the beginnning of the game's legacy. Hoyo did not or might not have had a clear and detailed vision of what today's current game mechanics and playing field so they probably did not want their first batch of 5 stars to be so strong that it prevents people, especially the f2ps and low spenders, from pulling on any future characters because why would you spend money on something you already have? Look at Zhongli, his initial skills were so underwhelming probably because Hoyo did not want players to just breeze through their content which would have taken them a lot of time and effort to create - although this isn't such a good example as Zhongli's shield is still overpowered XD. Now that Hoyo has a clearer view of the playing field, they are now able to introduce more balanced 5 stars - though this does not mean every character they release would be a hit with the fans (though personally I love using characters people normally don't use like Dori and Thoma). On the other hand, 4 stars have slightly different treatment because you can theoretically get them at any time (Kuki pls come home). In one of your videos you looked at niche 4 stars and similar to what your said there, Hoyoverse are releasing them now because we have a more diverse roster of characters. At the beginning of the game, there were many roles to fill so they gave the early 4 stars more varied skillsets to cover as much space as possible. Again I bring up that Hoyo might not have had an explicit view of what Genshin would look like 3 years into the future, and so now that the large gaps have been covered by the likes of Xiangling and co., they've now more recently brought out units like Gorou, Yunjin, Faruzan, etc. I think that if Xiangling were released now instead of at the beginning of the game, her pyronado would have an ICD and her skillset would be dramatically mitigated. With every new 4 star character release, the chances of getting the early 4 stars are lower, so newer fans have to 'work' to get them and their strong abilities. While you can buy them from the shop, the currency to obtain them requires players to pull and thus giving them justification to pull and possibly spend money and so increasing Hoyo's sales. These are just some of my thoughts and theories, but I started playing at version 2.2 so I'd also like to hear other people's opinions :D, both Day 1 fans and those who recently joined.
Honestly if there was anything close to powercreep it would be 1.6-2.1 as four out of the five star are tier 0 unit Kazuha,Ayaka,Raiden and Kokomi or be it not alot of people have considered Kokomi to be meta at the time of her released which lead to a big outrage saying she was trash it was pretty another Bennett scenario
As always a very balanced video of your thoughts and musings. I honestly wish we could have more of a balance, like a character who can function on or off field but if you choose off field their damage is reduced or something. Or perhaps their skill functions off field but not their burst or vice versa. Thus incentives to keep them on field but you can still switch out if desired. I personally find myself putting Kokomi in every list before Xingqiu simply for ease of play, as she carries new under leveled characters through content with her excessive healing, and being a catalyst she enables a number of reactions.
yeah she could probably almost outclass baizhu if it works off-field like she has AoE dendro application through her burst which is good for bloom based teams.
6:49 eh nowadays they are exclusively dendro focused, which makes them have completely different team compared to raiden dps ones. At that point they aren't competing since you can bring both to abyss
Vars, I like your content, genuinely do, but if you want to make theorycrafting content on your channel, please please please get them checked out. There are so many, many things that are wrong with this video. The biggest problem is with the concept of the video itself. While Main dps for genshin is a horrible term in of itself, now that I've seen the definition of Sub dps, I realise it is much worse. The biggest problem is when one classify a character as on class but they play like another. Sucrose is the best example. She is commonly classified as "support", but when she applies electro via her burst off field for aggravates she plays like a "sub dps", and then when she becomes a driver for a taser team, she plays like a "main dps". You realise how wrong that is. Another example is Ganyu. People classify her as "main dps", but if you use ganyu mainly for her burst, she becomes a "sub dps". Ayato is in the same boat as well. You see how f-ed up the classification system is? A character's role should not be defined before defining the team for them. For instance, Kazuha Venti Collei Fischl. Kazuha is the on fielder with tf and applying electro, trigger aggravate. Venti is CC support as well as aggravate trigger. Fischl is electro applier and aggravate trigger. Collei is dendro applier. Everyone's role here is different from normal. There are so many roles a character can have in genshin. On field dps, off field dps, on field element applier, off field element applier, healing support, shielding support, battery, CC support, stat buffer, on field driver etc. These are the roles characters can have, and a character can have many roles. Bennett is healing support, stat buffer and battery while Venti is battery, CC support and res shredder with 4pcs vv. Another point I want to argue is the line between "support" and "sub dps". Take Xingqiu for example. At a baseline, he is just a hydro applicator. He applies hydro to enemies when the active char does a NA. However, when built with high crit and stuff like that, he becomes a hydro applier and an off field damage dealer. Kazuha at a baseline is CC support, stat buffer and res shredder, but if he is built with high em, his burst can deal off field damage as well. A few more itty gritty details here and there: You don't defacto to Sucrose in a Sucrose taser team. You use sucrose to drive the reactions because she is the best unit to use, not cause she is the only one. Wanderer is not a powercrept Xiao. Both of them have near similar roles with near similar damage output and s*ck without good supports. Fischl is fine in a Hyperbloom team. She rarely triggers the seeds so she's fine. I like your content Vars, but please next time, check your videos for accuracy sake. Thank you.
I think Vars would really benefit sitting down with a TC like Zajef and going over some of the mechanics in detail, including the hidden mechanics like gauge theory and ICDs. It feels like he and many other creators get stuff wrong from not understanding how teams work the way they do correctly. As you say, there's a reason main/sub DPS aren't used as categories for characters in most guides and why TCers don't use them anymore.
I really agree with u on the very slow power creep thing. I dropped genshin for nearly a year and when I came by my hu tao still absolutely carried me through abyss. Even main DPS power creep feels manageable.
@@JarmaraL Eh it's kinda random. Ignoring the standard banner characters; Venti and Klee have fallen off in most teams, Childe is still great in International, Zhongli got buffed and is a great support, Albedo is good in Geo teams, Ganyu is still good though melt is usually better than freeze for her and Morgana isn't as good as it used to be, Xiao is okay, Hu tao is still great and got buffs with Hydro res change + Yelan, Eula is okay, Kazuha is a great support, Ayaka is still a strong dps, Yoimiya is good she's a bit weaker than Hu Tao but easier to play, Raiden is great both in Rational and Hyperbloom, Kokomi was always good in Freeze but got even better with Dendro. Itto is okay/good I'd say he's better than Xiao/Wanderer mostly due to Gorou being cheaper + easier to use than Fazuzan who needs C6. He also doesn't need Bennett which is a positive imo because pretty much everyone has at least one good Bennett team already. Shenhe is a niche cryo support but she does it well, Yae is a bit clunky but still has great dmg especially with Dendro, Ayato is worse than Childe in some teams but better in others plus he has off field use with his burst which gives him flexibility, Yelan is great, Cyno is alright a bit clunky and not great for overworld but he's quite good in quick bloom with Nahida in abyss, Nilou is niche but very strong with the right team (Nahida+Kokomi mainly), Nahida is broken, Wanderer is similar to Xiao they both want Bennett + Zhongli + C6 Faruzan, Alhaitham is very good and his teams are a lot of fun imo even with only 4 star teammates he has no trouble in abyss and doesn't need Bennett. TL;DR IMO Venti 7/10 Klee 6.5/10 Childe 9/10 Zhongli 9/10 Albedo 7/10 Ganyu 8.5/10 Xiao 7/10 Hu Tao 9/10 Eula 7/10 Kazuha 10/10 Ayaka 9/10 Yoimiya 8/10 Raiden 10/10 Kokomi 9/10 Itto 8/10 Shenhe 8/10 Yae 8.5/10 Ayato 9/10 Yelan 10/10 Cyno 8.5/10 Nilou 9/10 Nahida 10/10 Wanderer 7/10 Alhaitham 9/10 Dehya's current kit is a bizarre mess that makes no sense. She has low dmg and her stagger resistance/dmg reduction is similar to Xingqiu's if I'm not mistaken except it's circle impact with poor uptime and much worse dmg/elemental application. She really is worse than Xinyan and it's so weird. It's like they tried to do everything with her and failed at all of it; bad off field dmg, bad and clunky burst dmg, bad defensive utility, and bad particle generation to top it off.
@@JarmaraL I'd say Dehya is the only recent 5* who has a messed up kit. Every Sumeru 5*s are good. Even though Cyno and Wanderer is lacking a QoL playstyle they still dishes out decent damage. Even I'd say Alhaitham is better than Hu Tao and Ganyu and more versatile than them
@@xxx_lolidestroyer69_xxxuwu58 yeah agree, got wanderer myself cause he is fun, but when i compare him to someone like my ganyu he is worse. Kinda forgot about alhaitham but it is truth that he is pretty good.
To be honest I wouldn't want the game to "incentivize" me to use teams or characters, just so I can have a reason to use them, because that would feel like being forced to use them. Pulling for them is reason enough; the whole fun of the game is finding ways to build powerful teams around the characters and playstyles you enjoy using, and most of the characters are good enough that, if you spend enough time on them, you can build powerful teams. Obviously, some characters just do more damage or are simpler to use than others. But if there were no differences, then there would be no variety. Yes, Hu-Tao does the most damage out of the pyro DPSs but is she the "best" just because of that? Her playstyle is very specific with dash cancelling and the like. Personally I like Yoimiya best cause it's all auto-aim and the fireworks are really pretty. I use Thoma with her cause I like Thoma, even though Zhongli or Bennett would be more "optimal" on her team, and she's still super powerful. I cleared abyss with a Nilou bloom team and a Mono Geo Itto team, even though I have a pretty well built national that would have been easier. Not because Nilou or Itto are the absolute best choices or even one of the best, but simply because I wanted to and it was more fun for me. It's really that easy. Unless you are the kind of player who needs everything to be at its absolute most optimal, and cannot stand the thought of not doing record-breaking damage on every strike, I think there's so much fun to be had with trying out new teams and characters. No judgement on min-maxers, I just think that, if your problem is that you want to try something new, there's so much variety in the character's gameplay to have fun with and there's absolutely nothing standing in your way.
Hey Vars I wanted to give you a video idea: Why characters seem weaker on beta/leaks, and what actually changes when they go live (with people saying alhaitham was just dendro keqing, yaoyao was trash and xingqiu was better than yelan while these characters were not in the live servers, and more recently what's happening to dehya)
That’s uninteresting topic tho… More of the reason is because most players cast judgement too quickly without even trying it themselves. Ex. Nilou, they kept complaining she’s too niche; After her release, player saw how OP her niche is giving her a comfortable spot (A tier) in Genshin meta.
That's moreso to do with people jumping the gun without knowing much about the characters. Both alhaitham and yaoyao were said to be good characters by theorycrafters when in beta. Dehya on the other hand... Nobody thinks she is good, not even theorycrafters as her kit just doesn't make sense. Unless there are changes to her kit in the beta or her getting buffed with future characters/artifacts, she won't be strong.
C0-c6 XQ was said to be better than c0 Yelan because in all ways that matter, he is. He still is btw. Better hydro application, defensive utility, particle generation. This only matters for Hu Tao but that's was the point of the people complaining. Amidst the sea of people praising her a lot in the leaks subreddit because yay second XQ, there were complaints that she didn't apply enough hydro for Hu Tao (90% of the small amount of complaints were prefaced with Hu Tao). People want a better XQ for their waifu Hu Tao. They want to replace a yee yee as-s haircut boy with their new mommy obsession. This was before hydro resonance was changed. Now they just run both XQ and Yelan on Hu Tao. Yaoyao wasn't trash and no tc trashtalked her. She is an off field dendro that was more functional than Collei. Dendro is so strong that she is good by default. All they wanted was to make her icd/energy generation consistent and it did became consistent. Alhaitham burst was nerfed massively. His on field 3 mirror sustained rotation dps was nerfed overall by 8% and his burst was nerfed by 20%. This nerf is meant to kill his burst quick swap playstyle and enforce an on field play style. THEN THE WEEK AFTER, HE WAS BUFFED. He saw a 5% dps increase. He was buffed. People forget that part. Even before the buff, you have guys like zajef77 on record saying he will be good simply because he is dendro and guys like The Genshin Scientist saying he is still good with math. He was called dendro Keqing not because of his damage but because he teleports with his E and multi slash with his Q.
@@Eanki_ Xq and Yelan fit different roles, Yelan for dmg buffing and Xq for defensive consistent hydro app. That is why Yelan and Xq works well together. Ppl didn't see this at first but quickly saw this difference after release.
In many of the chinese tier lists, there are 0 T0 main/on-field damage characters, but several sub/off-field damage characters. Makes a lot of sense that a character that does not have to stay on the field to do all or most of their damage is far better than a character that hogs the field and prevents you from swapping out.
I've realised that the trio "assasin, tank, support" is recently being difficult to classify them: there are tanky dps, tanky supports and supports with good dmg. I wonder if one day characters are going to be impossible to classify
@@nicolrb2210 well, if they do every character unique (as the devs of every game are trying to do), how do they classify them? At some point they'll run out of ideas and they need to repeat stuff but what until then?
the trio exists because thats how characters are supposed to be balanced; the reason why this doenst exist in genshin is because characters arent balanced basically you only get a few set amount of... "skill points" to put in your stats. In genshin, some characters have like 10x the skill points of another character, which is why they can specialize in multiple things
@@kyllernotkiller classification is really something of the community, not the devs. The devs make the characters, give them skills and the ability to have synergy with others, while the players explore the character’s utility and potential, giving them a place in the team. I don’t really know why they even need a classification. It’s just a fancy name. So what if they can’t be classified? They’re all still usable even if they don’t have only one clear role
@@nicolrb2210 in terms of why you want a classification for characters, it's easier for new players to learn how to setup new team comps if they know the role each character plays. If you know the basic Raiden national setup of one main, two sub, one support and also know which characters you own that fit into each role it's easier to explore new team comps without the need for guides and player suggestions.
A 4 star character can't have the same numbers and scaling as a 5 star one, which is what matter most for a DPS. She don't have much utility. Her element is not good. Her kit is clunky and buggy.
One important factor is this: most people do not have every character, let alone have built the ones they pulled more recently. With time and ever growing roster it will be harder to pull the optimal meta team as the chances of pulling desired characters decrease. My solution for the future would be making niche 4* characters free and easy to obtain while making the OG 4* (Xl, Xq, Bennett and Fischl) harder to get.
It didn't take me very long to realize that off-field DPSs and off-field applicators were busted. I pulled for HuTao which is on-field, but honestly, I don't even use her that much. It is indeed amazing how the "original" 4* off-field DPSs retained their relevance, and nowadays are still considered busted.
9:15 it was actually the other way around, sucrose being so good was used to devalue kazuha. It wasn’t until after his banner that people realized how powerful and valuable he was
Before the video begins, I would just like to say that YOU ARE SO RIGHT WITH THIS TITLE!!! Also would just like to say. Ik you're trying to use on fielder as a term, but you should distinguish it from main DPS. Because the point of an on fielder is to be on field, not to be a main DPS. They can be a main DPS but they can also be a buffer, healer or a driver. Also, Xiangling isn't a sub DPS, she is usually the main DPS of the team. What Xiangling is is just an off fielder most of the time.
It is always been like that in almost all gacha games I played. Supports are always the best for example in FGO, if you have Castoria, Skadi, Merlin, and Waver. I will assure you, your game is secured. The same way Genshin supports makes your game secured and futureproof.
Yep, I nicknamed this phenomena Field Curse in a conversation almost a year ago. Because the meta works exclusively with the 1 Main 3 Sub, people are conditioned to look for Support/Sub-DPS thrice as often. Eventually I expect some considerably warped views about characters are going to arise from this. (in fact, there are 2 characters one could argue already suffer from this: Zhongli and Kazuha, dudes pack some of the cleanest attack strings and in-story are depicted as frontliners, but in the eyes of the meta they are a Shield-bot and an EM/Shredder respectively)
8:02 i never thought id be seeing wanderer as a comparably recognized good character I mean he isnt a meta character but he is very flexible in comps, you dont have to put faruzan on all his teams but i guess thats just my opinion
Zhongli is more ss tier now than ever before: enemies became more complex and do a lot more damage but zhongli can still face tank everything and laugh at them; has an universal RES shred that can even work with hyperbloom dmg; makes a lot of main dps characters not a frustration to play like ganyu, wanderer and cyno who can be continuetly interrupted by everything; his ult helps setups rotation while the enemies are blocked and even wolfhounds and abyss knights didn t make him less relayable.
What about characters that work better in co-op game play? Klee's crits give the party energy passively while Bennett's burst doesn't work well in practice because people will leave the circle. Some characters and combinations only work best when you have direct control instead of sticking to one or two characters depending on the co-op content. Qiqi was a god in the Chalk Prince's; Resurgent Cryo Regisvine fight because she healed so much damage that she could ignore the mechanics and phases. She could just keep swinging through the blizzard because it didn't do enough damage to one shot her.
so this talk mostly focused about the gameplay of the highest level of play in spiral abyss. For me personally, I have a single sub dPS support and two on fielders that react to the support equally as well as a healer. This allows me to fight enemies and have reactions that work for me in different situations. Even lvl 91 enemies fall to this strat. and it allows me to comfortably fight in the standard rock paper scissors. I also speced my prefered sub dps, xin quie, into a main dps. so now I have 3 main dps in my part at all times.
My hope is they release a level 100 ascension eventually with a new talent passive for everybody to buff them eventually. Granted how talent levels are right now, it seems like it'll be more probable than impossible.
Raising the level cap seems almost guaranteed, since the 3rd and 5th constellation states that it raises the skills max level to 15, despite the fact that the current cap is 10 and the constellation only adds 3 levels. Personally I think they won't add a new passiv with the level cap raise tho. Imo they'll eventually add smth like a powered up form of the character that will require a new limited material like the crowns of insight to get. That would then unlock a new passive.
@@thegreatBarbossa not saying it's possible for them to raise the cap to 100 bit I think that's mainly to futureproof their design for abilities like childes where he gives +1 talent level to basic attacks,
Hi, I just started the game and I’m now AR8 I would like you to help me choose the main dps, sub dps and support, the characters I have are xiangling, yao yao, noelle and the main characters
The fact that supports like Sucrose and Kokomi can be used as Drivers aka On field, just shows that the "classes" of characters constantly keep breaking the barriers and crossing over is perfectly fine. I feel like I'm getting dejavu, cause I'm reminded of learning grammar when I was younger. It's like i before e except after c, but except for everything single instant it isn't that way. And as for the case of Sub Dps, they (usually) have the best of everything! Damage, utility, a bit of support, and the best of all FLEXIBILITY.
That is because Catalyst tbh. I do it with my Yae. I run a Yae, Fischl, Kazuha and Yaoyao. And I have to run Yae as the on field DPS and it really works. In some of my bloom teams I also run Nahida as on field. Imo Catalysts are busyed because they will proc a reaction 100% of the time.
Another fantastic video discussing a very interesting topic. I think it might be beneficial (albeit difficult) for mihoyo to provide missions/activities where certain characters excel, like you mentioned with Kuki being superior to Fischl if healing and electro are necessary. Another option is to have an alternate version of spiral abyss where only 4* or 5* characters can be used, or where a handful of characters are available from a player’s roster. P.S. I’m not sure if you’ve done any videos recently discussing co-op (I’m going to check after writing this) but I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on whether or not it’s important for Genshin to improve its co-op, and if so, how could/should it be done? Personally, I think a multiplayer spiral abyss would be pretty cool
Kuki is superior to Fischl in hyperbloom. Kuki is the 2nd best hyperbloom user (and arguably the most role compression as hyperbloom user) and hyperbloom is one of the best reactions in this game.
A test of endurance event would be AMAZING! Everyone bringing their healers and let’s see how long we last 💕 god I would love that! Might also give a 🔥 🦁 more usage iykyk
Afaik main dps deals the most damage (not necessarily on field) and sub dps mostly enables reaction for the main dps and deals 2nd to the most damage. Ex: Hutao - On field main dps Xingqiu - Off field sub dps Childe - On field sub dps Xiangling - Off field main dps
"Diona is a physical damage support" (with no physical damage buffing abilities) :/ She is a cryo support providing a shield, cryo res , movement speed, with C6 a EM buff and battery abilities. It is usually used with Ganyu, Ayaka and Eula. This guy is so off with his facts. Not the only thing this guy explains is wrong but definitely the worst in this video.
Shes a quicken buffer now that cryo doesnt react with Dendro. Quicken and forward melt are the only two teams her c6 matters. Also yeah, dori is literally better than diona in eula teams lol, besides giving cryo particles theres no reason to run her in physical teams over dori.
The thing with sucrose that I noticed VERY early was that her and barbara were the fastest normal attackers in the game. Paired with XQ and Fischl made her feel so god damned powerful!
As a day 1 player i recently finished building and leveling every single character i own to lvl 80 or 90 with lvl 8 in all relevant talents and my thoughts where that i could finally just play whatever i want because i also finished getting all of them to friendship 10 around the same time. I could play a yanfei dps team or noelle hypercarry or maybe my old favorite childe tazer team.... noticed something? exactly. except for the noelle team all of them practially run with the same 2-3 characters+ the gimmick iam going for. While building a xingqui or bennett unlocks 40+ teams , building my xinyan unlocked 2 teams in her physical team (which sucks) and her pyro team with c6 bennett. which again only gets unlocked by c6 bennett who i had to build first. I like the fact that a player who comes back after a year or two can still basicially get a new character (expecting them to have the region unlocked to get their stuff) and build a close to optimal team with the characters they already own from back when the game released with maybe missing nahida or shogun. This might be great to some i personally really dislike the fact that half my rotations start with xqs burst and end with the character iam actually trying to play. Even tho iam giving every character i get a fair shot no matter if its dori or kokomi (wanted dori and got koko on the first pull) i build both and might actually enjoy dori more because she is adorable , she just ends up being a cheap replacement for shogun or fischl or even kuki in the team which means i need to fill in other strong units that ive seen a million times over to supplement for her missing support or help. Dont get me wrong i love using every character but team building sometimes feels restricted while it gives you freedom to play everyone you want if you are fine with giving up 2 other slots for the big names.
Off-field units are much friendlier to use compared to on-fields. Because there's no risk of prematurely ending their effects, you can afford a few mistakes in your rotation order and it wouldn't adversely affect your overall DPS.
I’m still hoping for more specific bosses Like: this Boss take 50% Skill dmg decrease but 25% NA increase Or where Ninguangs Jade shield could be powerful Or where no elemental reactions work, just pure damage stuff like that
s a ningguang main i am biased but i would love a feature to 5 star a main dps 4 star with like a constellation 6+ a quest or something. or even just some more artifact diversity to truly pump niche characters to the limit.
Vars, feedback: past the point when you started talking about Taser teams I felt you were speaking too fast and I had to slow down the video to 0,75x speed (and still suffered in following). Don't know if the recent issue with your voice factored in but hope you get better. Thanks for the analysis ❤
When I just started out I would always use a charge shot with amber, followed by a hold-E on anemo traveler, and I felt like I was breaking the game. Good times.
What do you think about the quality in characters released by region? Do you have your own ideas for how the gameplay of the overall cast may have changed over the months whether it be drastically, greedily or even too simply?
By region do you mean versions? Or literal regions? (Mondasdt, Liyue, Inazuma, Sumeru) if so. Liyue has always have a better character pool for obvious reasons. I mean, only 2-3 Liyue characters are plain bad vs the pool of the other regions.
about your voice when you're sick... you sound fine, you'll usually stress x10 about how your voice sounds like, but to me you sound normal. its just, yknow, you notice it a lot more when its yourself you're listening to
This really makes sense, since main dps characters wouldn't be able to catalyze reactions without the subs. They're literally the core of any really successful team build.
I'm okay with how off-field characters are atm if I'm being honest. It is true that it stifles team variety since at the end of the day most on-field characters' best team is probably some variant of National because of how strong it is. However this is actually good for most casual players who want to play a specific character as much as they can cause they will always have a team to fall back on and still clear content with. Of course not everyone will have that luxury, but it's kinda true when you consider most of the overworld can be cleared with at least Bennet+Kazuha because it's not demanding and you could literally slot it any two other favorite characters.
when i pulled Alhaitham on 20 pity and beat 50/50 with no pre-farmed resources, I imediately put him on my team, how? cracked supports. I 36 starred the abyss with him last night at level 67 in a hyperbloom team with nahida yelan and kuki. You are definately correct, but the way the game works, works because these supports allow you to make the most of any new unit from day one. Drop a leveled weapon and artifacts, and slot them in a cracked team and your level 20 Hu tao will absolutely be fun even if you didn't pre-farm any ascension or talent materials.
I feel like one sentence kinda sums up how I feel about like his dilemma Hoyo found themselves in: “Bennett, Fischl, Sucrose, Xiangling and Xingqiu were a mistake.”
"Generally it's not recommended to run more than one support..." Me running Kuki and Yao Yao on the same hyper bloom team because I don't have another off field em electro and off field dendro: eh, whoops?
>Cyno will never come close to Shogun's damage output Ehhhh, my C0 Cyno quickbloom team does more damage as a whole than my C0 Shogun national team. Idk when you wrote this script but the idea that Cyno can't do high tier damage is a little outdated, his quick/hyperbloom teams are pretty competitive now.
Hi Vars, I just wanted to let you know: Zajef77 has said multiple times (most recently in the Sumeru Character Tier List on the Keqing Mains channel) that Xiao's numbers are still better than Wanderers. So Xiao, at least, has not been power-crept
dps needs support to work, but support without dps can still do the job (with my kazuha i never do a full rotation in overwolrd/boses, and in abyss he's enough to kill small enemies
As a F2P player, I don't research or try very hard to play optimally for 2 reasons. 1: I find it tedious to try and target all of the specific accessories, weapons, and materials to set up optimal characters, and even if I just used optimal characters with suboptimal weapons and accessories, I don't want to save up my primogens and level up materials and wait around for those characters when there are others I want just because I like them. 2: I don't want to lock myself into the trap of only playing optimally, because I feel that if I do manage to make an optimal team, I'm never going to want to make a different team, because it will always be worse. I also just love experimenting and trying my best to make the best possible team with my own ideas and whatever characters or weapons I just so happen to have.
I agree! I may not be a F2P player but I agree with this. One of the many reasons I don't get bored or tired playing the game is because I never boxed myself into thinking that only the meta characters matter.
its because this guy literally looks at a new character and assumes the character is a "better version" of an old character without actually doing research. His comparison of Kuki to Fischl was laughable (they dont even fulfill the same role like.. what is he talking about)
Among the TC folks of the Genshin community, the three classes "Main DPS", "Sub DPS" and "Support" are inaccurate and strongly falsify the expectations of a unit. Especially in a post-Dendro Meta landscape where Team Building was changed up. For example, in a team of Xiangling, Childe and whoever else fits in (make up your own meta team here fjdjdhdh), the majority of the team's damage comes from Xiangling's Pyronado. Which in this specific instance would make her the Main Source of DPS. Yet a lot of casual audiences consider her a Sub DPS is a prime example of how this surface level categorization misrepresents what each "class" does. I'm a Kokomi main, I'm a huge lover of her massive healing, sustained AoE Hydro Application and having a super tanky driver who puts out solid damage numbers while enabling a ton of team comps. She is my go to on field choice for a lot of teams, be it Taser, be it Hyperbloom, etc. Now, what is she? Is she a "Main DPS"? She is on field, doing damage, applying Hydro while doing her role. But at the same time... Wouldn't her healing make her a "Support"? And that's just one example. I find this video is a great example of showcasing how outdated this categorization is and how it misrepresents the value that units individually bring to team building. Example: Keqing getting powercrept by Raiden Shogun feels like a random dump of Buzzwords. Of course, in a vacuum that's 100% true. Keqing's DPS has never ever been in a good place. But there's four slots and every units value fluctuates with available team comps. Post 3.0 Keqing has seen a massive surge in usage, courtesy of Aggravate being added. Not in particular because of her own damage, but because of an how easy time she has Driving Fischl's A4, making her one of if not the most effective choice for that one. And yet again, this would fall under the poor usage of "classes" to force units into roles they aren't designed or used for, thus making them look worse than they are. I like what this video was intended to say, but I feel like it unloaded a huge load of misinformation along the way and feels like there is less understanding of how the ins and outs of Genshin's Meta and Teambuilding actually work and more of a general echoing of surface level takes and casual opinions on Unit evaluation.
@@fzhs7030 I definitely did not want to sound like I'm putting myself leagues above him, if I did I am truly sorry. This was moreso intended to just give an overview as to how the generalisation of "classes" is misrepresenting units. In International, Childe definitely deals a huge amount of damage, yes. And I also did not mean to undersell Keqing, if I did. Moreso point out that Keqing's strength first and foremost comes from her synergy with Fischl A4 - without she'd be by no means as good as she is. Although that's all specifics. Point being, units have individual strengths and at the end of the what always matters the most in Genshin's Meta - in the context of spiral Abyss - is Team DPS. There's a lot of more nuanced factors, such as synergies, how available team comps are and of course situations. Throwing the term "Main DPS" onto several units for example does not accommodate for Single Target vs AoE as one of many examples as to why just throwing some buzzword labels onto characters is misleading. I guess I could've used better examples, but at the end of the day that doesn't matter.
Fischl doesn't trigger Hyperbloom consistently. Oz has a priority for targeting and bloom seeds are the last in that priority list. Thats why Kuki is used as the Hyperbloom trigger.
Yeah I notice that. Sob, Fischl is my waifu, so sad I had to bench her for Kuki.
@@arzonong7363 Solution: use both of them and turn it into Quick bloom instead
@@arzonong7363 solution: what the other dude said or use an anemo to trigger the blooms
@@arzonong7363 man u having a kira yamato pfp you should be more creative, just use a quick bloom team comp and done
I think the A4 passive is the one activating the cores so you at least need another character to creat more reactions
to this day, i still hate how Klee's ult stops as soon as you switch
She could have been the better Xiangling
True. She's the one character I regret pulling the most.
Guess those laser flowers only have eyes for their little master and nobody else. Would be cool if they'd stay on-field but fire indiscriminately when swapping off Klee just to match her lore haha.
Klee is the perfect example for what makes off-fielders work, since she just doesn't have it.
I'm kinda surprised Vars didn't mention her in the video.
Actually, like imagine if It didn’t stop as soon as you switched. You could pair Klee with xingqui or yelan (or both) and you would be doing a lot of damage.
@@FischlInsultsMePls I don't think Klee would be strictly better than Xiangling if it worked like that. Xiangling Pyronado strikes the perfect balance with applying pyro enough to not overtake hydro from units like childe or xingqiu.
Klee would have maybe worked better for melt teams though
Imo, hoyo really should release more off-field units. What makes genshin's combat so good is the elemental system and the fact you can switch between units to setup and trigger the reactions.
Releasing more off-field units builds on top of that strength.
This is actually a good idea.
What makes the original 4-stars characters so strong is that their roll as sub-dps have never really been challenged
@@FischlInsultsMePls yeah,there's only Thoma who's actually cracked in burgeon and kuki for hyperbloom. Aside from them i can't think of anyone in the same tier as the 1.0 4 stars for off field
@@mekhmoukhmehdi6923 rosaria is the only other 4star with an off field burst that has no ICD, I count her as one.
Yeah, just the fact that you can only have one character on field despite having four characters already indicates that the game should have more off-field characters than on-field ones. That said, as someone who hasn't had the opportunity to train an on-fielder, I hope they don't go too far down the other end. It feels terrible having no on-fielder, I can't decide who should stay on-field in my Kazuha National and Reverse Melt teams 😔
Agreee
Support I feel is a little too broad of a term, but it is accurate. I'd normally break the Support group into these subgroups: crowd control, defensive utility, battery, buffs/debuffs. So including the on-field DPS and off-field DPS roles, that's 6 total roles.
The best characters are the ones that cover multiple roles. This is what makes Bennett + Xingqiu the best characters in the game. Bennett covers 3 roles of defensive utility, battery, and buffs. Xingqiu covers multiple roles of off-field DPS, defensive utility, and to some extent also as a debuffer (with c2) and a battery, though these last 2 roles mainly see their value in double hydro teams.
Oh I like this distinction tremendously!
Healing should also be a role in the support category
@@Coralinemybeloved That's part of the defensive utility I think
I know reaction needs 2 characters, but a big part of xingqiu/xiangling value is the reactions they can bring too, so for me that's another area an character can or cannot cover
One more role for element enabler, xingqiu, xiangling, fischl and nahida are as strong as they are through an unrivaled element application
actually a lot of the time shinobu isn't in hyperbloom for heling shes there cuz her skill detonates the blooms perfectly every tick while putting electro on enemies every 2 ticks
@@prestige934 tf
@@prestige934 you need help if you think dori is better
Have fun filling her er needs
@@prestige934 her healing is a plus she is there for hyper bloom triggers
@@prestige934 Excuse me but what?.. The thing is you can build Kuki full em because of her 2 ascentions stat that gives you more healing from pure em build and dendro reactions love em and characters leveled as high as possible what is also good for Kuki who can take advantage form hp. Also her 2nd constelation makes her electro ring stay longer = more electro application in which she is already good at. Additionaly she is a 4* unit so she is easier to get (objectively) than a 5* character. + aside from elemental reactions you get a ton of healing so you don't need a designated healer in a team.
Yes, Raiden would be good but she would need full em build too. In Raiden team you would need a Kokomi or Barbara (who can get you frozen) or newly released Yaoyao to stay alive or be that good at dodging.
And Dori... we don't talk about Dori.
@@prestige934 Dori's burst has a short uptime making her so much worse than Kuki. You would also need a lot of hydro (maybe Childe?) + dendro to make use of her fast hyperbloom procs
I much prefer "off field dps" to "sub-dps", because a lot of off-field characters can sometimes be doing the majority of a team's damage.
Also, teams based around off-fielders are WAY more interesting and unqiue than teams focused around on-fielders.
Yeah,hypercarry teams are kinda boring while quickswap with off field dps is way more fun cuz you can try other combos and roations while not ruining your reactions
and these terms arent interchangable......
subdps =/= offfield
maindps =/= onfield
like national is team where there is off field maindps with a subdps/support onfield
and hu tao reverse-vape is onfield main dps with off field subdps
True, like in Childe national, Xiangling is your main dps. And to add on to your second point, off-fielders tend to be the most flexible, add to overall team performance, and require far less investment to be effective than a lot of on-field main dps. Like with Xiangling, in the first example I mentioned she's a main dps but in reverse melt with Xiangling-Bennet-Kaeya-Rosaria she's the pyro applicator enabling Kayea's and Rosaria's melts.
I just call em Off DPS.
Yea, I feel like the "main/sub dps" term is too broad. Like for example who's the dps in Sucrose National or Taser team? It's not Sucrose right? That's why I (and theorycrafters too) find the term On Field/Off Field dps better
"having Qiqi and Noelle would be excessive" that's half of my early game party! I eventually dropped Noelle for Diona but if I needed real healing it was Qiqi to the rescue.
One simply does not drop Noelle, the true geo archon.
@@DirecDelta Everyone says: "You need a Sam in your life" , but nobody says: "You need a Noelle in your life"
I myself never dropped Noelle, I'm on my way to triple crown her. On the other hand I still have no Qiqi.
@@DirecDelta It's ok, she had shield up so no damage was done on dropping.
Personally, I hope they create more flexible characters that can function both on-field and off-field. Raiden, Nahida, Sucrose, Ganyu, Ayato, and Kokomi are all good examples of that. I just love when we can invest in a character and make them the star of a team, but they can also function as off-fielders and allow for interesting new team comps even if they're not the best person for the job.
On-field characters like Childe, Wanderer, and Alhaitham are really fun to play, but it's a shame that they mechanically play the same way regardless of what supports you pair them with. On the flip side I find characters that exist solely to make 1-2 other characters stronger extremely boring, like Faruzan, Sara, and Gorou.
I think the problem is all down to Xingqiu and Xiangling they set the standard for sub DPS characters by doing more damage from off feild than some characters like Diluc were doing on feild. Thus all future sub DPS including 5 stars like Yelan/Yae had to compete with those damage numbers. Thus sub DPS ended up being the real carry role.
exactly, its funny how xiangling does more damage than cyno with the signature weapon
Here's a comprehensive list of the character roles in Genshin as I understand them, noting that there is a lot of overlap and many characters can fulfil several of these roles:
- Main On-fielder: The character that's spending the most time on field, usually driving reactions. (e.g. Keqing, Ayaka, Ganyu, Hu Tao)
- Off-Field Enabler: This is a character that can apply their element quickly and effectively from off field, enabling the main on-fielder to execute reactions effectively. Most of the characters that fill this role also fill others, but it's still very important to acknowledge when a character is good at this. (e.g. Shinobu, Kokomi, Nahida, Mona)
-Off-Field DPS: Any character than can deal a respectable amount of damage with abilities that persist when they leave the field. Most of the characters that fill this role are also good off-field enablers. (e.g. Raiden, Miko, Xingqiu, Xiangling, Fischl)
-Survivability Supports: Characters that help the team stay alive. Includes shielders (e.g. Zhongli, Layla) and healers (e.g. Kokomi, Shinobu, Qiqi)
-Damage Supports and Buffers: Characters that enhance the damage output of other teammates. (e.g. Bennett, Faruzan, Yun Jin, Viridescent Venerer users)
Here are other team roles I hear people talk about, but didn't feel were worth including in the list above:
-On-Field Enabler: This is a subtype of Main On-fielder that's there primarily for quick elemental application to react with damage from Off-Fielders. This fits entirely within the definition of Main On-Fielder so I left it out for fear of being redundant.
-Burst DPS: A special type of On-Fielder that is not meant to take up a lot of field time, instead doing heavy front-loaded damage in only a few seconds. This is a niche role used only when your Main On-Fielder has severely long periods of down time. This was seen much more often in the earlier days of Genshin. However, nowadays, people have come up with much more elegant ways of dealing with a Main On-Fielder's downtime. This isn't something you'll see very often.
-Battery: While energy generation can be very important, I left this out because the concept of a "battery" in Genshin is not as cut and dry as the team roles I described above. Whether or not a character can be considered a battery is heavily dependent upon the team they're on. It's very situational, so just know that if a character on your team has trouble with Burst uptime, you may want to pair them with another character of the same element to generate more energy for them. Anemo users can also generate particles for other elements via Swirl infusions such as Kazuha's Skill and Burst.
I will reiterate that many characters in Genshin can fill more than one of these roles. So if I used a character as an example for one of them, it doesn't mean that's all they're good for. Feel free to share your thoughts and let me know if I missed something that should be on here.
tysm i was looking for information like this
also do you know if there is a good off field pyro,electro & cryo dps/enabler ?
@@tunamayo2823
For a Pyro enabler, Xiangling is realistically your only good option. Her Pyro application comes primarily from her Burst and she does have big time energy issues so she's best paired with another Pyro teammate. Bennett is a solid option, as he can buff her Pyronado to great effect.
Electro enablers are a dime a dozen, and it's really gonna depend on what you need. Miko, Raiden, and Fischl are all great for Electro application and damage alike. If you need electro application in a wide AOE, such as in a Hyperbloom setup, Shinobu is a solid option, and her healing is good enough that she can realistically keep your team alive by herself.
With Cryo off-fielders you've got a couple options. Diona's Burst has very consistent application in a wide AOE while also healing and, with her C6, buffing the party's EM. But with an energy cost of 80 you will likely need to give her some help with energy. Layla's shield will slowly release Cryo projectiles through its duration, although her Burst will speed this up considerably and has an energy cost of only 40, making her a solid option that can realistically keep your team alive on her own. For higher damage options, Rosaria and Ganyu both have good AOE Cryo application if you can keep their Bursts charged up.
@@captainlightbulb Thank you
@@tunamayo2823 Rosaria works very well with Favonius Lance as her weapon. As for artifacts I would recommend 4 piece Nobless Oblige. A safe bet would be to shoot for around 150-160% Energy Recharge to keep uptime on her Burst. Otherwise, just give her a Crit Rate circlet, Cryo goblet, and either an ATK% sands or ER if you still need more. Then just look for Crit Rate in all the substats. Try and get some Crit DMG if you can, but don't stress about it, Crit Rate is far more important for Rosaria.
I've noticed opinions slowly change to this over time with some people outright saying they are more interested in off fielders they can use for many different setups with a lot of value over in field dps
I've had that opinion for 2 years, glad to see others starting to agree lol
You only have 1 on fielder at a time , you just need to choose the optimal on fielder that accentuates your off fielders potential, for example Childe for International , Hu Tao/Yoimiya/Hyperbloom for double hydro etc
that is also why my main goal when I began playing the game was to get 1 main dps from each element to begin with, and from that point only going for characters I want for reasons other then filling the spot I need them to. I've got wanderer and xiao becuase I love their playstyles, but I got xiao first so I didn't really need wanderer when I got him. At the point I'm at right now, since I've been clearing the Abyss fully since 2.6, I only go for characters I really like. Even though it's a gacha game, the resources aren't high for getting characters as I'm not someone who purchases top-ups all the time. I only go for welkin and battle pass, and even then it's not all the time. Basically, at this point I'm truly only missing a proper dendro main dps, and al-haitham will probably be the character im going for, but Yelan is more important right now haha. While summoning and getting new characters is fun, I like investing and getting the maximum potential out of the characters I already have, including weapons if I can get them for the characters I use.
That's why I was positively surprised by yaoyao her offfield application and healing was life changinh
I've always enjoyed off-fielders since I feel more like I am utilizing the full extent of the game's reaction system.
Raiden Shogun is one of my favorite units cause she plays like both a dedicated hypercarry, and a really good off-fielder.
If Klee's burst were to work off field, she would probably be considered a much more powerful character than what she currently is, but because it doesn't, it forces her to compete against other on field damage dealers like the ones you stated, making her marginally weak. That is pretty much how powerful the role of sub-dps is.
Also, to me you sound fine in this video, if anything, it may sound like someone's first few videos if you listen closely, but it'll still pretty good.
Maybe it’s because yae and Nahida are some of my favorite units but I love off field dps characters a lot and I feel like they help make team building more fun
You're definitely right about everything you said. I've recently found that I'm always pulling on off field dps characters a lot more than on field (with the exception of characters I love or a dps role for an element I don't have). This is why I was so excited for Dehya at first because that's what she looks like. I also wanted Yae Miko as my sub dps for electro because I didn't really like how Shinobu played and I just really REALLY don't like Fischl and I'm not building her so Yae was perfect. But my point being that I find myself using the same team over and over that I crave characters that fill that role so I can add them to that list of characters I'll always use. Which is why I feel bad for units like Diluc, Heizou, Fischl, Xinyan, etc., who I'll never build because I have someone better.
you emphasised way too much on not liking Fischl, anything personal?
@@SHAM11_22 Yeah that probably sounded rude to those who like her, my bad. From the first time I got her I guess she just wasn't cool to me lol. When I found out her burst was basically just repositioning Oz I benched her. I didn't really like how one note her play style was at the time (I also just liked almost every other character better). On top of that her personality for me is a hit or miss. I can definitely enjoy her when she's on screen (especially when Oz is with her) but she's just too much if that makes sense and can be a tiny bit cringe. But this is all my opinion. I don't hate her or anything, she's just someone I won't bother using even though I am aware that she's really strong.
Characters that are worse versions of another character is fine as long as the worse character is a 4 star and the better version is a 5 star, because the rarity balances out the usefulness.
Part of me wishes crystallize were better so that Albedo could consolidate both the sub dps role along with either defensive utility or something more than just being used for his off-field dps and occasional EM buff via his ascension passive.
It's a little sad that as the first real premier 5* dedicated sub dps, he hasn't really found a home outside of mono-geo, and I'd mostly chalk that up to crystallize being a generally bad reaction. His appeal of being the only real off-field geo dps is kinda lost when the only benefits you get out of it are Gorou and geo resonance.
Imagine if Albedo were *any* other element besides geo, he'd be borderline broken between his relatively high off-field dps, minimal field time and setup, along with the ability to facilitate noteworthy reactions or even trigger those reactions himself.
Crystalize should make you deal small aoe damage of the element you absorbed while shielding you.
@@rayakoth Or element damage buff of the absorbed element, higher damage bonus with higher EM, they can literally do that so easily
There's another type of character called "driver" which is similar to dps because they stay on field for longer period of time but doesn't really do the most damage but increase others damage while still being onfield
I love the content as always, but I just wanted to drop a note of appreciation for your consistent use of FE 3 Houses music as background music 😍😍
Another that makes sub dps much more powerful compared to other types of support is their involvement in the team’s elemental reaction. Some shielder (like Zhongli) can only shield, and some dmg buffer (like Bennett) can only buff, but every single one of the sub dps characters contributes to creating elemental reactions in some shapes or forms (maybe not Albedo, but that’s more because he’s a geo character).
Hard disagree on the swiss army knife take. They definitely SHOULD NOT make the party more deficient. That just forces you to take specific characters. And if you don’t have those characters you just can’t be efficient. It just worsens the “dps check” gameplay instead of allieviating it.
On your first channel you do a mash-up of all characters of a class. Can you do the same here, but for each weapon type (since DPS classes are so vaguely defined)? Attack talent, Skill, Burst, A1 and A4 passives.
Another awesome video -- this was so clear... Really helped me get the Sub-DPS thing straight in my head. Thanks Vars!!
It would have make sense to mention quickswap dps that require low field time but arent off fielder either. That seem to be one of the possibility to build more complex rotation and bring more units to play.
I agree with you on the treatment of early 5 stars in the current version. While I do love them (always will be a Klee main) I suspect Hoyoverse did not want them to be wholly overpowered. While this does appear counterintuitive to sales, their rarity and limited runs will always entice players, especially at the beginnning of the game's legacy. Hoyo did not or might not have had a clear and detailed vision of what today's current game mechanics and playing field so they probably did not want their first batch of 5 stars to be so strong that it prevents people, especially the f2ps and low spenders, from pulling on any future characters because why would you spend money on something you already have? Look at Zhongli, his initial skills were so underwhelming probably because Hoyo did not want players to just breeze through their content which would have taken them a lot of time and effort to create - although this isn't such a good example as Zhongli's shield is still overpowered XD. Now that Hoyo has a clearer view of the playing field, they are now able to introduce more balanced 5 stars - though this does not mean every character they release would be a hit with the fans (though personally I love using characters people normally don't use like Dori and Thoma).
On the other hand, 4 stars have slightly different treatment because you can theoretically get them at any time (Kuki pls come home). In one of your videos you looked at niche 4 stars and similar to what your said there, Hoyoverse are releasing them now because we have a more diverse roster of characters. At the beginning of the game, there were many roles to fill so they gave the early 4 stars more varied skillsets to cover as much space as possible. Again I bring up that Hoyo might not have had an explicit view of what Genshin would look like 3 years into the future, and so now that the large gaps have been covered by the likes of Xiangling and co., they've now more recently brought out units like Gorou, Yunjin, Faruzan, etc. I think that if Xiangling were released now instead of at the beginning of the game, her pyronado would have an ICD and her skillset would be dramatically mitigated. With every new 4 star character release, the chances of getting the early 4 stars are lower, so newer fans have to 'work' to get them and their strong abilities. While you can buy them from the shop, the currency to obtain them requires players to pull and thus giving them justification to pull and possibly spend money and so increasing Hoyo's sales.
These are just some of my thoughts and theories, but I started playing at version 2.2 so I'd also like to hear other people's opinions :D, both Day 1 fans and those who recently joined.
Honestly if there was anything close to powercreep it would be 1.6-2.1 as four out of the five star are tier 0 unit Kazuha,Ayaka,Raiden and Kokomi or be it not alot of people have considered Kokomi to be meta at the time of her released which lead to a big outrage saying she was trash it was pretty another Bennett scenario
As always a very balanced video of your thoughts and musings.
I honestly wish we could have more of a balance, like a character who can function on or off field but if you choose off field their damage is reduced or something. Or perhaps their skill functions off field but not their burst or vice versa. Thus incentives to keep them on field but you can still switch out if desired.
I personally find myself putting Kokomi in every list before Xingqiu simply for ease of play, as she carries new under leveled characters through content with her excessive healing, and being a catalyst she enables a number of reactions.
If yaoyao’s ult was active when she was off field, she’d probably be able to compare to other sub-dps top tier
That’s probably why they designed her ult that way. They don’t want another case of too OP 4* Characters the likes of Xingqiu and Xiangling.
@@sorcierenoire8651 at least we can do a team like ”burgeon lyue (and bennett)”😂
yeah she could probably almost outclass baizhu if it works off-field like she has AoE dendro application through her burst which is good for bloom based teams.
6:49 eh nowadays they are exclusively dendro focused, which makes them have completely different team compared to raiden dps ones.
At that point they aren't competing since you can bring both to abyss
Vars, I like your content, genuinely do, but if you want to make theorycrafting content on your channel, please please please get them checked out. There are so many, many things that are wrong with this video.
The biggest problem is with the concept of the video itself. While Main dps for genshin is a horrible term in of itself, now that I've seen the definition of Sub dps, I realise it is much worse.
The biggest problem is when one classify a character as on class but they play like another. Sucrose is the best example. She is commonly classified as "support", but when she applies electro via her burst off field for aggravates she plays like a "sub dps", and then when she becomes a driver for a taser team, she plays like a "main dps". You realise how wrong that is. Another example is Ganyu. People classify her as "main dps", but if you use ganyu mainly for her burst, she becomes a "sub dps". Ayato is in the same boat as well.
You see how f-ed up the classification system is? A character's role should not be defined before defining the team for them. For instance, Kazuha Venti Collei Fischl. Kazuha is the on fielder with tf and applying electro, trigger aggravate. Venti is CC support as well as aggravate trigger. Fischl is electro applier and aggravate trigger. Collei is dendro applier. Everyone's role here is different from normal.
There are so many roles a character can have in genshin. On field dps, off field dps, on field element applier, off field element applier, healing support, shielding support, battery, CC support, stat buffer, on field driver etc. These are the roles characters can have, and a character can have many roles. Bennett is healing support, stat buffer and battery while Venti is battery, CC support and res shredder with 4pcs vv.
Another point I want to argue is the line between "support" and "sub dps". Take Xingqiu for example. At a baseline, he is just a hydro applicator. He applies hydro to enemies when the active char does a NA. However, when built with high crit and stuff like that, he becomes a hydro applier and an off field damage dealer. Kazuha at a baseline is CC support, stat buffer and res shredder, but if he is built with high em, his burst can deal off field damage as well.
A few more itty gritty details here and there:
You don't defacto to Sucrose in a Sucrose taser team. You use sucrose to drive the reactions because she is the best unit to use, not cause she is the only one.
Wanderer is not a powercrept Xiao. Both of them have near similar roles with near similar damage output and s*ck without good supports.
Fischl is fine in a Hyperbloom team. She rarely triggers the seeds so she's fine.
I like your content Vars, but please next time, check your videos for accuracy sake. Thank you.
I think Vars would really benefit sitting down with a TC like Zajef and going over some of the mechanics in detail, including the hidden mechanics like gauge theory and ICDs. It feels like he and many other creators get stuff wrong from not understanding how teams work the way they do correctly. As you say, there's a reason main/sub DPS aren't used as categories for characters in most guides and why TCers don't use them anymore.
Get well soon Vars!
Always love your videos and discussions, they're so interesting to watch
I really agree with u on the very slow power creep thing. I dropped genshin for nearly a year and when I came by my hu tao still absolutely carried me through abyss. Even main DPS power creep feels manageable.
tbh I feel like it is reverse power creep, the latest five stars are pretty bad, like when dehya has worse multipliers then xinyan
@@JarmaraL Eh it's kinda random. Ignoring the standard banner characters; Venti and Klee have fallen off in most teams, Childe is still great in International, Zhongli got buffed and is a great support, Albedo is good in Geo teams, Ganyu is still good though melt is usually better than freeze for her and Morgana isn't as good as it used to be, Xiao is okay, Hu tao is still great and got buffs with Hydro res change + Yelan, Eula is okay, Kazuha is a great support, Ayaka is still a strong dps, Yoimiya is good she's a bit weaker than Hu Tao but easier to play, Raiden is great both in Rational and Hyperbloom, Kokomi was always good in Freeze but got even better with Dendro.
Itto is okay/good I'd say he's better than Xiao/Wanderer mostly due to Gorou being cheaper + easier to use than Fazuzan who needs C6. He also doesn't need Bennett which is a positive imo because pretty much everyone has at least one good Bennett team already.
Shenhe is a niche cryo support but she does it well, Yae is a bit clunky but still has great dmg especially with Dendro, Ayato is worse than Childe in some teams but better in others plus he has off field use with his burst which gives him flexibility, Yelan is great, Cyno is alright a bit clunky and not great for overworld but he's quite good in quick bloom with Nahida in abyss, Nilou is niche but very strong with the right team (Nahida+Kokomi mainly), Nahida is broken, Wanderer is similar to Xiao they both want Bennett + Zhongli + C6 Faruzan, Alhaitham is very good and his teams are a lot of fun imo even with only 4 star teammates he has no trouble in abyss and doesn't need Bennett.
TL;DR IMO
Venti 7/10
Klee 6.5/10
Childe 9/10
Zhongli 9/10
Albedo 7/10
Ganyu 8.5/10
Xiao 7/10
Hu Tao 9/10
Eula 7/10
Kazuha 10/10
Ayaka 9/10
Yoimiya 8/10
Raiden 10/10
Kokomi 9/10
Itto 8/10
Shenhe 8/10
Yae 8.5/10
Ayato 9/10
Yelan 10/10
Cyno 8.5/10
Nilou 9/10
Nahida 10/10
Wanderer 7/10
Alhaitham 9/10
Dehya's current kit is a bizarre mess that makes no sense. She has low dmg and her stagger resistance/dmg reduction is similar to Xingqiu's if I'm not mistaken except it's circle impact with poor uptime and much worse dmg/elemental application. She really is worse than Xinyan and it's so weird.
It's like they tried to do everything with her and failed at all of it; bad off field dmg, bad and clunky burst dmg, bad defensive utility, and bad particle generation to top it off.
@@JarmaraL I'd say Dehya is the only recent 5* who has a messed up kit. Every Sumeru 5*s are good. Even though Cyno and Wanderer is lacking a QoL playstyle they still dishes out decent damage.
Even I'd say Alhaitham is better than Hu Tao and Ganyu and more versatile than them
@@xxx_lolidestroyer69_xxxuwu58 yeah agree, got wanderer myself cause he is fun, but when i compare him to someone like my ganyu he is worse. Kinda forgot about alhaitham but it is truth that he is pretty good.
@@kx2174 Not that random tho, just wait until a new Liyue char comes in and boom, broken
"Placing 2 supports would be excessive"
Me with Diona and Kokomi on the same team: nervously sweating
To be honest I wouldn't want the game to "incentivize" me to use teams or characters, just so I can have a reason to use them, because that would feel like being forced to use them. Pulling for them is reason enough; the whole fun of the game is finding ways to build powerful teams around the characters and playstyles you enjoy using, and most of the characters are good enough that, if you spend enough time on them, you can build powerful teams.
Obviously, some characters just do more damage or are simpler to use than others. But if there were no differences, then there would be no variety. Yes, Hu-Tao does the most damage out of the pyro DPSs but is she the "best" just because of that? Her playstyle is very specific with dash cancelling and the like. Personally I like Yoimiya best cause it's all auto-aim and the fireworks are really pretty. I use Thoma with her cause I like Thoma, even though Zhongli or Bennett would be more "optimal" on her team, and she's still super powerful. I cleared abyss with a Nilou bloom team and a Mono Geo Itto team, even though I have a pretty well built national that would have been easier. Not because Nilou or Itto are the absolute best choices or even one of the best, but simply because I wanted to and it was more fun for me. It's really that easy.
Unless you are the kind of player who needs everything to be at its absolute most optimal, and cannot stand the thought of not doing record-breaking damage on every strike, I think there's so much fun to be had with trying out new teams and characters. No judgement on min-maxers, I just think that, if your problem is that you want to try something new, there's so much variety in the character's gameplay to have fun with and there's absolutely nothing standing in your way.
Hey Vars I wanted to give you a video idea: Why characters seem weaker on beta/leaks, and what actually changes when they go live (with people saying alhaitham was just dendro keqing, yaoyao was trash and xingqiu was better than yelan while these characters were not in the live servers, and more recently what's happening to dehya)
That’s uninteresting topic tho… More of the reason is because most players cast judgement too quickly without even trying it themselves. Ex. Nilou, they kept complaining she’s too niche; After her release, player saw how OP her niche is giving her a comfortable spot (A tier) in Genshin meta.
That's moreso to do with people jumping the gun without knowing much about the characters. Both alhaitham and yaoyao were said to be good characters by theorycrafters when in beta. Dehya on the other hand... Nobody thinks she is good, not even theorycrafters as her kit just doesn't make sense. Unless there are changes to her kit in the beta or her getting buffed with future characters/artifacts, she won't be strong.
C0-c6 XQ was said to be better than c0 Yelan because in all ways that matter, he is. He still is btw. Better hydro application, defensive utility, particle generation. This only matters for Hu Tao but that's was the point of the people complaining. Amidst the sea of people praising her a lot in the leaks subreddit because yay second XQ, there were complaints that she didn't apply enough hydro for Hu Tao (90% of the small amount of complaints were prefaced with Hu Tao). People want a better XQ for their waifu Hu Tao. They want to replace a yee yee as-s haircut boy with their new mommy obsession. This was before hydro resonance was changed. Now they just run both XQ and Yelan on Hu Tao.
Yaoyao wasn't trash and no tc trashtalked her. She is an off field dendro that was more functional than Collei. Dendro is so strong that she is good by default. All they wanted was to make her icd/energy generation consistent and it did became consistent.
Alhaitham burst was nerfed massively. His on field 3 mirror sustained rotation dps was nerfed overall by 8% and his burst was nerfed by 20%. This nerf is meant to kill his burst quick swap playstyle and enforce an on field play style. THEN THE WEEK AFTER, HE WAS BUFFED. He saw a 5% dps increase. He was buffed. People forget that part. Even before the buff, you have guys like zajef77 on record saying he will be good simply because he is dendro and guys like The Genshin Scientist saying he is still good with math. He was called dendro Keqing not because of his damage but because he teleports with his E and multi slash with his Q.
@@Eanki_ Xq and Yelan fit different roles, Yelan for dmg buffing and Xq for defensive consistent hydro app. That is why Yelan and Xq works well together. Ppl didn't see this at first but quickly saw this difference after release.
In many of the chinese tier lists, there are 0 T0 main/on-field damage characters, but several sub/off-field damage characters. Makes a lot of sense that a character that does not have to stay on the field to do all or most of their damage is far better than a character that hogs the field and prevents you from swapping out.
I've realised that the trio "assasin, tank, support" is recently being difficult to classify them: there are tanky dps, tanky supports and supports with good dmg. I wonder if one day characters are going to be impossible to classify
It’s not that they’ll be hard to classify, instead, the classifications will change
@@nicolrb2210 well, if they do every character unique (as the devs of every game are trying to do), how do they classify them? At some point they'll run out of ideas and they need to repeat stuff but what until then?
the trio exists because thats how characters are supposed to be balanced;
the reason why this doenst exist in genshin is because characters arent balanced
basically you only get a few set amount of... "skill points" to put in your stats. In genshin, some characters have like 10x the skill points of another character, which is why they can specialize in multiple things
@@kyllernotkiller classification is really something of the community, not the devs.
The devs make the characters, give them skills and the ability to have synergy with others, while the players explore the character’s utility and potential, giving them a place in the team.
I don’t really know why they even need a classification. It’s just a fancy name. So what if they can’t be classified? They’re all still usable even if they don’t have only one clear role
@@nicolrb2210 in terms of why you want a classification for characters, it's easier for new players to learn how to setup new team comps if they know the role each character plays. If you know the basic Raiden national setup of one main, two sub, one support and also know which characters you own that fit into each role it's easier to explore new team comps without the need for guides and player suggestions.
Video request: Why no one plays ninguang
That's actually a really good one.
Geo, its because of the damn Geo element
A 4 star character can't have the same numbers and scaling as a 5 star one, which is what matter most for a DPS. She don't have much utility. Her element is not good. Her kit is clunky and buggy.
One important factor is this: most people do not have every character, let alone have built the ones they pulled more recently. With time and ever growing roster it will be harder to pull the optimal meta team as the chances of pulling desired characters decrease.
My solution for the future would be making niche 4* characters free and easy to obtain while making the OG 4* (Xl, Xq, Bennett and Fischl) harder to get.
Zhongli its tier 0 due to how comfy and safe he makes everything.
Zhongli is NECESSITY since I am so bad at dodging.
I literally don't even know how to dodge because of Zhongli
@@arzonong7363 I have to make due with just Diona, waiting for rerun QQ And I missed him in the original run as he was so bad before the buff.
It didn't take me very long to realize that off-field DPSs and off-field applicators were busted.
I pulled for HuTao which is on-field, but honestly, I don't even use her that much.
It is indeed amazing how the "original" 4* off-field DPSs retained their relevance, and nowadays are still considered busted.
4:29 ayo wait wait wait they ranked candace above cyno keqing eula sucrose venti and xiao???? that tierlist is not possible i cant believe it
It's in alphabetical order.... Candace still definitely doesn't belong in that tier tho
Hey there Vars! It was an awesome video. I wish you a fast recovery.
We'll be awaiting your healthy return.
App name that tells us how DPS ,sub DPS and supporter
imagine how relevant klee would still be if her burst worked off field....
9:15 it was actually the other way around, sucrose being so good was used to devalue kazuha. It wasn’t until after his banner that people realized how powerful and valuable he was
Love all the Three Houses music in the backround.
Before the video begins, I would just like to say that YOU ARE SO RIGHT WITH THIS TITLE!!!
Also would just like to say. Ik you're trying to use on fielder as a term, but you should distinguish it from main DPS. Because the point of an on fielder is to be on field, not to be a main DPS. They can be a main DPS but they can also be a buffer, healer or a driver.
Also, Xiangling isn't a sub DPS, she is usually the main DPS of the team. What Xiangling is is just an off fielder most of the time.
This video just reminds me that if Klee's burst persisted when she is off field, she'd be much higher in the tier list.
4:19 right now the best tier list that i saw is the Letrows tier list
It is always been like that in almost all gacha games I played. Supports are always the best for example in FGO, if you have Castoria, Skadi, Merlin, and Waver. I will assure you, your game is secured.
The same way Genshin supports makes your game secured and futureproof.
Yeah
But i think for arknight. Support arent that game secure. They are really a support
supports are forever
Yep, I nicknamed this phenomena Field Curse in a conversation almost a year ago.
Because the meta works exclusively with the 1 Main 3 Sub, people are conditioned to look for Support/Sub-DPS thrice as often. Eventually I expect some considerably warped views about characters are going to arise from this. (in fact, there are 2 characters one could argue already suffer from this: Zhongli and Kazuha, dudes pack some of the cleanest attack strings and in-story are depicted as frontliners, but in the eyes of the meta they are a Shield-bot and an EM/Shredder respectively)
8:02 i never thought id be seeing wanderer as a comparably recognized good character
I mean he isnt a meta character but he is very flexible in comps, you dont have to put faruzan on all his teams but i guess thats just my opinion
8:05 wanderer overshadowed Xiao? R u sure?
My Top 2 Abyss team consist of both Xinqiu and Yelan on its lineup
Having nephew aunt combo on a same team is just insane...it feels ilegal TBH
Zhongli is more ss tier now than ever before: enemies became more complex and do a lot more damage but zhongli can still face tank everything and laugh at them; has an universal RES shred that can even work with hyperbloom dmg; makes a lot of main dps characters not a frustration to play like ganyu, wanderer and cyno who can be continuetly interrupted by everything; his ult helps setups rotation while the enemies are blocked and even wolfhounds and abyss knights didn t make him less relayable.
What about characters that work better in co-op game play? Klee's crits give the party energy passively while Bennett's burst doesn't work well in practice because people will leave the circle. Some characters and combinations only work best when you have direct control instead of sticking to one or two characters depending on the co-op content. Qiqi was a god in the Chalk Prince's; Resurgent Cryo Regisvine fight because she healed so much damage that she could ignore the mechanics and phases. She could just keep swinging through the blizzard because it didn't do enough damage to one shot her.
so this talk mostly focused about the gameplay of the highest level of play in spiral abyss.
For me personally, I have a single sub dPS support and two on fielders that react to the support equally as well as a healer. This allows me to fight enemies and have reactions that work for me in different situations. Even lvl 91 enemies fall to this strat. and it allows me to comfortably fight in the standard rock paper scissors.
I also speced my prefered sub dps, xin quie, into a main dps. so now I have 3 main dps in my part at all times.
Diona can also be used in Dendro teams, specially after reaching C6 😽
Gotta love how my first team was pretty much only supports/sub-dps
Noelle, Sucrose (my beloved), Fischl and Xiangling.
You're 100% the same youtuber that used to make maplestory videos, I know that voice from anywhere
oh no Vars pls don’t tell me you think Dehya is gonna be the next pyro DPS 😭
My hope is they release a level 100 ascension eventually with a new talent passive for everybody to buff them eventually. Granted how talent levels are right now, it seems like it'll be more probable than impossible.
Raising the level cap seems almost guaranteed, since the 3rd and 5th constellation states that it raises the skills max level to 15, despite the fact that the current cap is 10 and the constellation only adds 3 levels.
Personally I think they won't add a new passiv with the level cap raise tho. Imo they'll eventually add smth like a powered up form of the character that will require a new limited material like the crowns of insight to get. That would then unlock a new passive.
@@thegreatBarbossa not saying it's possible for them to raise the cap to 100 bit I think that's mainly to futureproof their design for abilities like childes where he gives +1 talent level to basic attacks,
Hi, I just started the game and I’m now AR8 I would like you to help me choose the main dps, sub dps and support, the characters I have are xiangling, yao yao, noelle and the main characters
The fact that supports like Sucrose and Kokomi can be used as Drivers aka On field, just shows that the "classes" of characters constantly keep breaking the barriers and crossing over is perfectly fine. I feel like I'm getting dejavu, cause I'm reminded of learning grammar when I was younger. It's like i before e except after c, but except for everything single instant it isn't that way.
And as for the case of Sub Dps, they (usually) have the best of everything! Damage, utility, a bit of support, and the best of all FLEXIBILITY.
That is because Catalyst tbh.
I do it with my Yae. I run a Yae, Fischl, Kazuha and Yaoyao. And I have to run Yae as the on field DPS and it really works.
In some of my bloom teams I also run Nahida as on field. Imo Catalysts are busyed because they will proc a reaction 100% of the time.
Another fantastic video discussing a very interesting topic. I think it might be beneficial (albeit difficult) for mihoyo to provide missions/activities where certain characters excel, like you mentioned with Kuki being superior to Fischl if healing and electro are necessary. Another option is to have an alternate version of spiral abyss where only 4* or 5* characters can be used, or where a handful of characters are available from a player’s roster.
P.S. I’m not sure if you’ve done any videos recently discussing co-op (I’m going to check after writing this) but I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on whether or not it’s important for Genshin to improve its co-op, and if so, how could/should it be done? Personally, I think a multiplayer spiral abyss would be pretty cool
Kuki is superior to Fischl in hyperbloom. Kuki is the 2nd best hyperbloom user (and arguably the most role compression as hyperbloom user) and hyperbloom is one of the best reactions in this game.
A test of endurance event would be AMAZING! Everyone bringing their healers and let’s see how long we last 💕 god I would love that! Might also give a 🔥 🦁 more usage iykyk
Afaik main dps deals the most damage (not necessarily on field) and sub dps mostly enables reaction for the main dps and deals 2nd to the most damage.
Ex: Hutao - On field main dps
Xingqiu - Off field sub dps
Childe - On field sub dps
Xiangling - Off field main dps
"Diona is a physical damage support" (with no physical damage buffing abilities)
:/
She is a cryo support providing a shield, cryo res , movement speed, with C6 a EM buff and battery abilities. It is usually used with Ganyu, Ayaka and Eula. This guy is so off with his facts. Not the only thing this guy explains is wrong but definitely the worst in this video.
Shes a quicken buffer now that cryo doesnt react with Dendro. Quicken and forward melt are the only two teams her c6 matters. Also yeah, dori is literally better than diona in eula teams lol, besides giving cryo particles theres no reason to run her in physical teams over dori.
The thing with sucrose that I noticed VERY early was that her and barbara were the fastest normal attackers in the game. Paired with XQ and Fischl made her feel so god damned powerful!
As a day 1 player i recently finished building and leveling every single character i own to lvl 80 or 90 with lvl 8 in all relevant talents and my thoughts where that i could finally just play whatever i want because i also finished getting all of them to friendship 10 around the same time. I could play a yanfei dps team or noelle hypercarry or maybe my old favorite childe tazer team.... noticed something? exactly. except for the noelle team all of them practially run with the same 2-3 characters+ the gimmick iam going for. While building a xingqui or bennett unlocks 40+ teams , building my xinyan unlocked 2 teams in her physical team (which sucks) and her pyro team with c6 bennett. which again only gets unlocked by c6 bennett who i had to build first. I like the fact that a player who comes back after a year or two can still basicially get a new character (expecting them to have the region unlocked to get their stuff) and build a close to optimal team with the characters they already own from back when the game released with maybe missing nahida or shogun. This might be great to some i personally really dislike the fact that half my rotations start with xqs burst and end with the character iam actually trying to play. Even tho iam giving every character i get a fair shot no matter if its dori or kokomi (wanted dori and got koko on the first pull) i build both and might actually enjoy dori more because she is adorable , she just ends up being a cheap replacement for shogun or fischl or even kuki in the team which means i need to fill in other strong units that ive seen a million times over to supplement for her missing support or help. Dont get me wrong i love using every character but team building sometimes feels restricted while it gives you freedom to play everyone you want if you are fine with giving up 2 other slots for the big names.
Off-field units are much friendlier to use compared to on-fields. Because there's no risk of prematurely ending their effects, you can afford a few mistakes in your rotation order and it wouldn't adversely affect your overall DPS.
I’m still hoping for more specific bosses
Like: this Boss take 50% Skill dmg decrease but 25% NA increase
Or where Ninguangs Jade shield could be powerful
Or where no elemental reactions work, just pure damage stuff like that
Another great video. tho, I'm curious on your opinion on the game8 tier list?
s a ningguang main i am biased but i would love a feature to 5 star a main dps 4 star with like a constellation 6+ a quest or something. or even just some more artifact diversity to truly pump niche characters to the limit.
Shout out to my girl Sucrose for being a powerful and versatile unit, more love and recognition for her.
Vars, feedback: past the point when you started talking about Taser teams I felt you were speaking too fast and I had to slow down the video to 0,75x speed (and still suffered in following). Don't know if the recent issue with your voice factored in but hope you get better. Thanks for the analysis ❤
When I just started out I would always use a charge shot with amber, followed by a hold-E on anemo traveler, and I felt like I was breaking the game. Good times.
8:04 Wanderer did not powercreep any on field dps or anemo dps, certainly not when comparing him at c0 to a c0 xiao.
Does anybody know the background music that plays at the start of the video? It's so familiar but I can't remember...
Bro, your voice is just fine. Keep up with the good content.
What do you think about the quality in characters released by region? Do you have your own ideas for how the gameplay of the overall cast may have changed over the months whether it be drastically, greedily or even too simply?
By region do you mean versions? Or literal regions? (Mondasdt, Liyue, Inazuma, Sumeru) if so.
Liyue has always have a better character pool for obvious reasons. I mean, only 2-3 Liyue characters are plain bad vs the pool of the other regions.
about your voice when you're sick... you sound fine, you'll usually stress x10 about how your voice sounds like, but to me you sound normal. its just, yknow, you notice it a lot more when its yourself you're listening to
This really makes sense, since main dps characters wouldn't be able to catalyze reactions without the subs. They're literally the core of any really successful team build.
I don't know where you got the info that wanderer is out shining xiao, but that's fine only one out of four wrong
I'm okay with how off-field characters are atm if I'm being honest. It is true that it stifles team variety since at the end of the day most on-field characters' best team is probably some variant of National because of how strong it is. However this is actually good for most casual players who want to play a specific character as much as they can cause they will always have a team to fall back on and still clear content with. Of course not everyone will have that luxury, but it's kinda true when you consider most of the overworld can be cleared with at least Bennet+Kazuha because it's not demanding and you could literally slot it any two other favorite characters.
when i pulled Alhaitham on 20 pity and beat 50/50 with no pre-farmed resources, I imediately put him on my team, how? cracked supports. I 36 starred the abyss with him last night at level 67 in a hyperbloom team with nahida yelan and kuki. You are definately correct, but the way the game works, works because these supports allow you to make the most of any new unit from day one. Drop a leveled weapon and artifacts, and slot them in a cracked team and your level 20 Hu tao will absolutely be fun even if you didn't pre-farm any ascension or talent materials.
I feel like one sentence kinda sums up how I feel about like his dilemma Hoyo found themselves in:
“Bennett, Fischl, Sucrose, Xiangling and Xingqiu were a mistake.”
"Generally it's not recommended to run more than one support..." Me running Kuki and Yao Yao on the same hyper bloom team because I don't have another off field em electro and off field dendro: eh, whoops?
>Cyno will never come close to Shogun's damage output
Ehhhh, my C0 Cyno quickbloom team does more damage as a whole than my C0 Shogun national team. Idk when you wrote this script but the idea that Cyno can't do high tier damage is a little outdated, his quick/hyperbloom teams are pretty competitive now.
Cyno hyperbloom fking blows Raiden national away but people are still in the mind of “Rational this rational that”
Hi Vars, I just wanted to let you know: Zajef77 has said multiple times (most recently in the Sumeru Character Tier List on the Keqing Mains channel) that Xiao's numbers are still better than Wanderers. So Xiao, at least, has not been power-crept
This video just motivates me to rework my Sucrose since Kazuha overshadowed her once I got him and put my VV EM pieces on him
dps needs support to work, but support without dps can still do the job (with my kazuha i never do a full rotation in overwolrd/boses, and in abyss he's enough to kill small enemies
The fact that literally any “main dps” can work bc of off fielders like Bennett XQ and XL is a testament to their capabilities
As a F2P player, I don't research or try very hard to play optimally for 2 reasons. 1: I find it tedious to try and target all of the specific accessories, weapons, and materials to set up optimal characters, and even if I just used optimal characters with suboptimal weapons and accessories, I don't want to save up my primogens and level up materials and wait around for those characters when there are others I want just because I like them. 2: I don't want to lock myself into the trap of only playing optimally, because I feel that if I do manage to make an optimal team, I'm never going to want to make a different team, because it will always be worse. I also just love experimenting and trying my best to make the best possible team with my own ideas and whatever characters or weapons I just so happen to have.
I agree! I may not be a F2P player but I agree with this. One of the many reasons I don't get bored or tired playing the game is because I never boxed myself into thinking that only the meta characters matter.
Can't wait to see how u react to dehya
I ended up doing something... interesting with my team. Double hydro/Pyro. Childe, Xingqiu, Bennett, and Xiangling. It does pretty good for me tbh
8:36 dude what kind of xiangling is that. 🤯
What music is that in the back ground
I do hope that Hoyo can make Klee's burst to be an off field skill.
As a wanderer main, he has not overshadowed Xiao. Theyre kind of just equivalent to each other
its because this guy literally looks at a new character and assumes the character is a "better version" of an old character without actually doing research. His comparison of Kuki to Fischl was laughable (they dont even fulfill the same role like.. what is he talking about)
2:11 why do people do Q > E with raiden
they got her weapon or cons so they don't think about the rotation anymore
Among the TC folks of the Genshin community, the three classes "Main DPS", "Sub DPS" and "Support" are inaccurate and strongly falsify the expectations of a unit. Especially in a post-Dendro Meta landscape where Team Building was changed up.
For example, in a team of Xiangling, Childe and whoever else fits in (make up your own meta team here fjdjdhdh), the majority of the team's damage comes from Xiangling's Pyronado. Which in this specific instance would make her the Main Source of DPS. Yet a lot of casual audiences consider her a Sub DPS is a prime example of how this surface level categorization misrepresents what each "class" does.
I'm a Kokomi main, I'm a huge lover of her massive healing, sustained AoE Hydro Application and having a super tanky driver who puts out solid damage numbers while enabling a ton of team comps. She is my go to on field choice for a lot of teams, be it Taser, be it Hyperbloom, etc.
Now, what is she? Is she a "Main DPS"? She is on field, doing damage, applying Hydro while doing her role. But at the same time... Wouldn't her healing make her a "Support"?
And that's just one example.
I find this video is a great example of showcasing how outdated this categorization is and how it misrepresents the value that units individually bring to team building.
Example: Keqing getting powercrept by Raiden Shogun feels like a random dump of Buzzwords. Of course, in a vacuum that's 100% true. Keqing's DPS has never ever been in a good place.
But there's four slots and every units value fluctuates with available team comps.
Post 3.0 Keqing has seen a massive surge in usage, courtesy of Aggravate being added. Not in particular because of her own damage, but because of an how easy time she has Driving Fischl's A4, making her one of if not the most effective choice for that one.
And yet again, this would fall under the poor usage of "classes" to force units into roles they aren't designed or used for, thus making them look worse than they are.
I like what this video was intended to say, but I feel like it unloaded a huge load of misinformation along the way and feels like there is less understanding of how the ins and outs of Genshin's Meta and Teambuilding actually work and more of a general echoing of surface level takes and casual opinions on Unit evaluation.
@@fzhs7030 I definitely did not want to sound like I'm putting myself leagues above him, if I did I am truly sorry.
This was moreso intended to just give an overview as to how the generalisation of "classes" is misrepresenting units.
In International, Childe definitely deals a huge amount of damage, yes. And I also did not mean to undersell Keqing, if I did. Moreso point out that Keqing's strength first and foremost comes from her synergy with Fischl A4 - without she'd be by no means as good as she is.
Although that's all specifics.
Point being, units have individual strengths and at the end of the what always matters the most in Genshin's Meta - in the context of spiral Abyss - is Team DPS.
There's a lot of more nuanced factors, such as synergies, how available team comps are and of course situations.
Throwing the term "Main DPS" onto several units for example does not accommodate for Single Target vs AoE as one of many examples as to why just throwing some buzzword labels onto characters is misleading.
I guess I could've used better examples, but at the end of the day that doesn't matter.