Worlds cheapest and MOST EFFECTIVE octane booster
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- In this. PowerTec 10 episode 95, DV looks into the pro's and cons (not so many cons other than a little inconvenience) of water and water/methanol injection. However, and certainly the most relevant, he details how to make the most of this type of injection. One engine he mentions picked up 500 hp. But that was a big inch deal. smaller engines, even as small as 100 CID, can benefit to the tune of 75-100 hp IF ALL IS DONE RIGHT!
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AS A FORMER DEMOLITION EXPERT, A CHEMICAL ENGINEER AND ENERGY RESEARCHER, I UTTERLY SALUTE YOU THAT YOU HAVE AUTHORITATIVELY SEPARATED DETONATION, DEFLAGRATION AND COMBUTSION!!!
[aka air and fuel should NEVER EVER EVER DETONATE in an engine!!! (aka an actual "explosion")]
I may, some day, should I advance my trucks to the point of high performance I JUST MIGHT use water injection.
Right now, however, I am working on 'external' combustion cycles.
BUT!!!
NONETHELESS!!!
I 100% SUPPORT...
This IMMENSE WISDOM you give people!!!
Years ago i had a 80 Camaro z28 and it was a dog lol . So i raised the compression ratio to 10.9 , cast iron heads . Black jack headers . Com cam 292 solid lift . Elbrock water injection. When i used the water injection that engine ran pretty decent .. with out the water it would ping its self to bits . I knew that water injection was used in WW2 . I remember how clean the cylinder was when i pulled the heads to have them angle milled after running water injection ..Never thought about using soluble oil , good idea . Really appreciate your videos sir
I've always been curious about avoiding carbon deposits in the compression chamber using petrol , would you say it's equivalent to engines that run on methanol?
Awesome lesson. Thank you for your openness with your incredible knowledge and experience. I've run 20+ psi on 9.5:1 compression 6 and 8 cyl engines with water only injection, no intercooling and pump gas. Economy was never the goal. It's amazing how little performance guys use such a time proven thing.
Yessir you hit nail on head. David Vizard swears by water injection...even runs it on 87 octane with high compression motors.
distilled water? How do you pump and inject it , technically?
@@jamesmedina2062 Snow Performance makes systems for carbs.
Had mine set for 3/4 throttle and above it truly does work. Use water and windshield washer fluid, 50/50.
Simple and cheap will also keep the carbon off the back of your valves and really resists pinging
@@gordocarbosir i have high compression, turbocharged motor in arizona and I’m thinking of running the carb plate. Do you have the shear one or the regular and how do you make sure the carb comes on at 3/4 throttle?
@@davecaresforyou7606 You mean water injection? Mine worked off a microswitch you can adjust when it comes on
This gentleman has probably forgotten more about engines than most of us will ever learn. I love how he puts the cookies on the bottom shelf, so everyone can understand his lectures. Keep up the great work! I do wonder if water injection could also reduce the need for intercoolers on turbocharged/supercharged applications.
Years ago I picked up a copy of your "How to Build a Max Horsepower Chevy Small Block on a Budget" book and read it cover to cover. As soon as your video popped up, I knew who were and subscribed. I want to say THANK YOU for sharing all of your knowledge and experience!
Dave, I'm running a 2.5L Dodge 4 cyl. with factory Mitso. turbo at 17 PSI. ( WOT ) with an intercooler. I added a Volvo cold start gasoline injector about 6 inches from the throttle plate, but it runs too rich now. Your explanation about water injection has just opened up a whole new arena of possibilities for me. I truly appreciate the effort you made to explain all this to us DIY people. Thanks so much.
Were you lean before adding the injector? On crude efi systems that are hard to tune, adding an injector can sometimes work, but you’d usually use the same type as the other 4 and wire it to one of the existing ones to get a 25% bump. Otherwise tuning should be the first solution and/or going larger on the injectors.
@@_..-.._..-.._ I first added +20% injectors, which allowed boost increase from stock 11 psi to 15 psi. That is the tripping point of starting to go too lean. To go higher, the 5th injector was added. A pressure switch brings on the 5th injector above 15 psi. I tried adding restrictor orifice to the 5th injector, but it is still too rich. Now I think I will have to reduce fuel pressure to the extra injector. It will be trial and error.
And my daily driver in the 1960's was the 1962 Olds Jetfire with stock turbocharger and stock water/methanol injection...
th-cam.com/video/Jzw5W1rRMog/w-d-xo.html
You will need to remove some fuel, with water or water methanol injection. rule of thumb to start, If you need 10 pounds of fuel per unit of time, use 9 pounds of fuel and 1 pound of water.
Very nice! Are you running the slushbox 3 speed auto, or did it come with a manual transmission?
My 89 LeBaron 2.5 w/ mitsu turbo pushes through the converter beyond 13 psi. It's so ass. On partial throttle, it howls like an injured wolf. I'll be using Vizard's theory behind my tuning, after I swap the Getrag A555 and install water/meth. 20 psi, here I come!
Good luck on your build 👍
Definitely curious on this one
Hi David.
I use methanol water injection in my bmw, it is the best I have known for the supercharged engine, I use a compression ratio of 9.75 to 1 with 2 maps of 2 and 2.5 bar.
I use 50% water and methanol.
I have the injector placed about 25cm before the throttle, the injector and the module are all homemade.
Best regards
It really works, almost lost my engine when I had a wiring problem and it didnt inject, thank you Jesus for knock retard. That is the downside of relying on a minimally engineered product like cheap Snow and AEM systems.
Could you please share your homemade wmi system, and the pump used?
This finally explains to me why the Pratt and Whitney R-2800C in the P47M and later thunderbolts burn less fuel at War Emergency Power with water injection vs Full continuous power with out. The water injection allows for a much leaner fuel mixture especially with an air cooled engine and that with the expansion ratio added from the water increases cylinder pressure with less fuel.
Excellent Video! 👍
My father was an industrial engineer at G.E. in Ft. Wayne's bomber engine plant, turbo/supercharger divisions and was one of a handful of engineers responsible for quality production. I agree with you whole heartidly about the P47 Thunderbolt. Republic Aircraft built some of our most durable aircraft. The Pratt and Whitney R2800 radial was a great engine. Turbo/superchargers were needed to gain altitude/speed to get higher than the Germain fighters.
Thank you sir
If I remember correctly the thunderbolt had a water/methanol injection system?
@@LeachimSagrav333
Yes, Water/Methanol was used on the P-47 for "Wartime Emergency Power" it had a toggle-switch labeled "WEP".
Early on it was enough for five minutes, later for over ten minutes.
The first fighter with a war emergency setting was the Spitfire. It had a wire that stopped the throttle from going above 6psi of boost. If you pushed thru the wire, you got 12psi of boost. This was after the US supplied the Brits with 100 octane fuel, and they could run higher boost. But the engine had to be serviced after the wire was broken until they beefed up the Merlin later on.
@@TheJustinJ nice👍
Sorry. Still inferior to the Pomme engines!
I really like water injection. I ran a 6 cylinder Holden in the 90’s with an old Edelbrock water injection system (the old red ecu system with 3 trim pots and a crude map sensor built in). It was terrible to tune and the water nozzle was just a brass tube blanked at one end with 2x60 thou holes towards the end. I nearly gave up on it but one night, I went on a late night drive, the planet’s and stars must have aligned or something because this thing just came alive like it never had before and after having a load of fun for around half an hour, the power dropped off again. It dropped off because water injection ran out of water. I just left settings as they were but adjusted it to come on later in the rev range but it never worked as well. It was a tad frustrating because the water ran out so quickly. I still have it now somewhere in the garage.
Well done for highlighting why WI is shit. It's unreliable, you have to fill the tank up every five minutes, it's heavy and people become rapidly bored of it.
Possibly be from the engine not coming up to temperature before the injection, or air fuel mixture being off. Should put an O2 sensor on and figure it out that way
@@michaelatkin9649 yes, I agree the temperature not up to running temp. The scale readings on the adjustable trimpots weren’t accurate as far as I can remember and they were very sensitive to any adjustment. It was a constant trial and error thing. On the trimpots, 3 of them, There was an rpm range, a 4,6 or 8cyl setting and a water volume setting. It was like trying to tune an old, worn carb with air leaks everywhere, you could have it right, with the engine at operating temp one day and next day, it wasn’t right under the same conditions next. When it was right though, it was awesome.
My daily driver in the 1960's was the 1962 Olds Jetfire with stock turbocharger and stock water/methanol injection...
th-cam.com/video/Jzw5W1rRMog/w-d-xo.html
wOw the 90's. Tech was still being born and reborn relearned. 2023 = still is hahahah. i am looking forward to doing this to a big Alfa dan mahle engine when it comes out in 2024! or after that sometime.
Water injection is very common in the diesel tractor pulling world,its been used successfully for about 50 years now.with a 3 stage compound turbo system using 4 chargers 300 lbs of boost was quite common at one time.water is injected in the atmosphere side of the compressors then between each stage and in port finally.find a super stock diesel puller and itll amaze you at the volume of h2o thats used in a 330 foot distance.
I just found your channel. I bought your books in the 80's I'm glad to see you are still sharing your knowledge!
Thanks for posting. Im a disabled gearhead, so bench racing these theories is most enjoyable. My next build god willing will employ much of what I have learned.
The tow car was faster. Lol
God bless you!
NACA - National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics. One of the few government programs actually providing a public benefit at no additional charge. I read Riccardo's work a long time ago. It is amazing how much water can be injected, and how much impact it has on cylinder temperatures because it has such a high heat of vaporization.
National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics.
You give me joy. That sounded like a wild idea, but you have convinced me it could work. I love your enthusiasm, and your extensive development and research background shows at every moment.
Holy crap. I was scratching my head about water injection when I was 10 or 11 years old. Currently 52. I need to step back and come back to this one. Much appreciated and bringing back memories
You got me a bit emotional sir
Back in the late seventies when the octane level was dropping in the California fuel, I had an engine that ran a 10.3:1 compression ratio in 180 psi cylinder pressure..... And 91 octane was not it's friend. It was a company called spearco that was based down in Santa Monica if I recall correctly that built a water vapor injector that I purchased and hooked up...... My dad was an aerospace engineer who turned me on to the idea..... It was very simple simply using the vacuum of the engine to create water vapor and suck it in through the base of the carburetor...... It worked excellent and I still have that device they sitting in my attic
Well break it out, patent it and share it with the world.......
On engine masters they had similar thing meth injection, conclusion water don't burn, so lost hp, so it's crap
@@alltherpm Yeah because they are GOD'S with their super sponsored paid for content 🤣😂🤣
@@samuelmartin2817 it's actually very simple..... Basically they took a glass mayonnaise jar, took a piece of copper line and ran it from the lid to about an inch from the bottom and then a second line attached to the lid barely protruding through that was quite a bit larger.... About a quarter of an inch..... This hooked up to your vacuum line and as the engine would run and pull vacuum it created a bubbling effect inside the jar with the water and the condensation would get sucked in by The collector at the top and get sucked into the engine. About the same moisture content as if it was raining.
I can tell you this. But it definitely worked because I was able to kick the time and almost back up to where I had it when I could get 98 octane
@alltherpm it's not garbage, it's technology that dates back to ww2 and is used every day.
I knew this would be about water injection. So glad David is on board. Yes, you dilute the air charge a little bit resulting in less HP/psi of air, but you can significantly open the tuning window for a given fuel. Im doing a dual fuel setup for my drag and drive build. 80/20 meth/water in the secondary fuel system. Blending it in where needed.
On board ? Lol
@@lukesimeon5756 as in "supports water injection"
My dad was doing water injection on a 235 straight 6 Chevy engine at least in the early 70s if not before. Not making a comparison just saying that some of these ideas have been around and maybe a lot of us had forgotten them. Of course this fella here has improved upon them
@@CAROLDDISCOVER-1983 I know more old timers that will run avgas or c16 on the street than I do ones that support or care about the science of water injection. Most don't even believe it works. Same for my generation but now it's all about e85, even if it means driving 2 hrs one way to fill a 55 gal drum and drive it back. I have had great success with water injection myself. Just glad to see someone like David Vizard showing some appreciation that's all.
@scrapmetal_sleepers420 I'm glad your trying to clean up your statements cuz David Vizards knowledge of the industry is so vast that he has forgotten more than most will ever know
I've been interested in water injection for a long time myself. I have a 2011 Ford Flex with the Ecoboost 3.5 V6 in it. I got the engine tuned a while back (since removed so I can go back to running 87), and before I installed the tune, I used FORScan to look at a bunch of different stuff like boost and fuel enrichment and the like. Something that surprised me is that I regularly saw fuel enrichment as low as 10.25:1 and on a couple rare occasions it dipped below 10 on the factory tune! I was blown away. No wonder this thing is such a pig on fuel for any kind of driving except highway. They're doing crazy amounts of fuel enrichment under boost, and I'm assuming it's because it's a non-EGR engine, and so they have to rely entirely on fuel enrichment to cool the combustion to deal with NOx. What's funny is that the performance tune never got below 11:1 even though it was running significantly higher boost numbers. Once I learned all of this and read up on the forums about water/meth injection, I had the idea to have my tuner make me up an 87 octane fuel economy tune and just run water injection without the methanol. If we're going for MPG's, there's no sense in pouring more fuel down the hatch, so I figured just water to cool the charge would be enough. Not to mention the cleaning ability for the intake valves which is such a huge problem on these DI engines. Now that I've listened to your presentation here I'm even more convinced that this is a good idea.
Ya i notice on 5.3 silverados form 99 to 03 13:1 at idle to 2000 RPM. I heard its so the catalytic converter heats up and burns everything for proper emissions. So my tune i got it 16:1 at idle 14:7 at 2000 RPMs and 12:1 at 6000 RPMS.
AFR's below 11.5:1 on 93 octane stock turbo applications are specifically for cooling the cats, not the engine, in nearly all cases.
Had 63 Buick that had a factory turbo with water alcohol injection. But it only had 2 gallon container in the engine compartment.
Why would you want a 17:1 static CR? You're giving up nearly all your scavenging advantage for throttle response and very little efficiency gains. It's been tested many times... there aren't any reasonable gains to be made with water/methanol injection in normally aspirated application. Decent gains to be had with forced induction... but NA is pointless, unless you're building for efficiency.
Thank you Mr. Vizard for everything you have taught me over the years with your books and videos!
I used to run an Edelbrock Vara-jection water injection system on a Ford 390 with 12:1 compression at 4500 feet altitude back in the early 80's, when properly tuned it made good power and the water would absolutely stop any detonation running 87 octane fuel, fuel economy with that engine was amazing, I think I have the Vara-jection still, I hope so because this makes me want to play with it again.
could you use that setup for a daily driver car everything I have been seeing on TH-cam has been for racing only.
That didn't happen to be in Bishop ca. did it?
@@kengilliskg That was on a daily driver, a 3/4 ton 4x4 truck, it was the only way it could be timed correctly without running avgas, the compression ended up that high somewhat by accident using 2bbl heads with 4 bbl flattop pistons.
@@tomschultz2833 Nope, Utah.
Did you run a radical cam profile or stock cam profile? I want to try building a 14-16:1 big block and use water injection like he mentioned at the 17:03 mark. I wonder at what rpm I could drive on 87 before having to use the water injection.
Back in the mid 70s had a buddy that was an aerospace engineer, he had a Ford F-150 pickup truck 390 Fe turboed with water injection system he made. Garrett turbo came from a work project. When you get on the throttle the engine would PING. The more water that was injected the ping ping would go away and you could keep your foot planted into the throttle. Truck was a screamer on the Los Angeles freeways
Dad bought a 67 Mercury Montcalm in 69. Three kids coming into their teens and a new baby did not fit the Valiant too good. The Merc had a 2V 390. Coming off a light the marbles would rattle 2 or 3 times and then it was good. I believe spark plug location was not the best.
Water injection was/used for jet fighters to increase thrust!
First of all, thank you David for covering this for the rest of us.
I bought and read a few of your books way back in the early 80s, when I decided to build my first turbocharged car, a 2.3 pinto powered Capri, which I cobbled together a water for.
My water injection system was crude, but effective.
After watching this video I've decided to try water injection again on my turbo
Mustang. Thanks for the insight.
Brian Crower made a modified Briggs and Stratton engine which ran with a 6 stroke cycle with a "steam stroke" as you described. It worked quite well from what I remember reading about it.
I remember back in the 80s hot rod was pushing vapor injection, which was a passive system that used an aquarium stone and a valve to adjust the vapor
That was Smokey Unick. I think he did a Vega first then maybe a Dodge Omni. He was getting a claimed 100mp with only a 20% drop in power. Then I never heard about it again. Did his experiments fail? If so, why wasn't a reason given for the failure so that other engineers could try to solve any problems that were discovered? Or did Smokey sell the concept with a "Non-Disclosure Agreement" NDA clause? $$$???
I remember reading about water injection in some GM technical briefs over 30 years ago. Fascinating stuff.
I have been using water/methanol injection for well over 40 years, in both NA and turbocharged engines. I started using it after reading about it in Hugh MacInnes' book on turbocharging. The results have been excellent without exception, from the simplest home made system to more sophisticated variable flow systems. Glad to see someone with Mr. Vizard's experience and wisdom addressing the subject. Some say that it is a bad idea because if you run out of fluid you'll grenade your engine. The remedy for that is to pay attention and make sure you have enough fluid available for the requirement at hand. I currently use it on a turbocharged engine running boost levels way too high for this era's crappy gasoline, and with absolutely no detonation problems. Thumbs up for water injection.
So are you saying I could put that great big Detroit 92 series turbocharger on my 8.1 l Silverado push the compression way high with water injection and greatly improve thermal efficiency??
BMW has a system which condense the water vapor from exhaust gases and return the water to the water injection system reservoir automatically
@@flappingflight8537 Did not know that but seems probable as they used water methanol injection on aircraft engines during WWII so they have 'some experience' (FW190, et.al.)
@@flappingflight8537 NACA report 756 from 1943 addresses this.
But it didnt work very well --- for airplanes at least.
@@tomstulc9143Thats what i was thinking too. Did you tune your 8.1 i looked at the 5.3 and 6.0 stock tune and there almost the same gm left lots of room at upper rmp range got my 5.3 to 6,500 and trans to downshift sooner still going strong at 270,000 miles.
Mr. Vizard is such a wealth of info, thank you
I saw the title and immediately said water. I then flashed back to reading Performance with Economy, I wasn't even in high school yet. I really do appreciate you and Andy doing this project, the knowledge still applies today. You all have a fantastic weekend!
One of my favorite purchases in the last year was that book, ive read through it several times during my fuel mpg Project StRanger
This is actually WWII tech and my daily driver in the 1960's was the 1962 Olds Jetfire with stock turbocharger and stock water/methanol injection...
th-cam.com/video/Jzw5W1rRMog/w-d-xo.html
Water injection back n the day Hor Rod mag, drops of water through carb 👍
Great episode. Please give us more about water injection. Thanks
Far from pump gas with octane booster used
i remember always going to your articles in MM&FF way before i looked at the centerfold cars so i could learn more, same with Richard Holdener's articles. so nice that you guys have a platform you can go more in depth with on here. i need this man to build me a high compression LS1 that gets like 70mpg and makes 500hp. lol
I agree completely I have read many of your books and bought many of them I tried many experiments even when gasoline was less than $0.80 a gallon for 87 octane I did follow a lot of your recommendations your recommendations were always spot-on
My father tried water injection on the 1967 440 GTX. He use the windshield washer with a spider made from AC capillary tubing and mounted over the carburetor. It did reduce detonation but was hard to regulate and only lasted a short while.
Mr. Vizard, you're expertise and knowledge was exactly what I was needing. Currently planning a 500hp 383 build, using many of your tips I may add, and also planning a high(ish) compression/increased Air-Fuel Ratio with Water/Methanol incorporated. Theoretically, I believe it will increase the fuel economy drastically and still give a nice performing engine.
I do have a question though, in engines running exotic fuel, it is said that the oil will get diluted or contaminated, I assume due to blow by. Would water/methanol or water injection itself have this same issue, or do you have any experience with this? May not be an issue due to oil change intervals and minimal amount of water/methanol, but may be worth considering?
The old Dodge/Plymouth 383 was a great engine.
Hello David, I called Walter's the morning of July 6 2023 to buy a pair of your cylinder heads. I never got a call back. I left a simple message. I gave my name and phone number and said "I'm calling to buy a pair of heads David Vizard is selling, I would like to buy the pair of small block Chevy heads that are being sold for $50."
I have a 1979 Camaro (my mom's car), it was a 1984 305HO from a z28. I'm looking to get about 375 hp with heads and cam change.
Guess I will need to wait for your next sale.
I am a retired auto tech, I became disabled in 2005, but still work on cars as much as I can a few days at a time. I have a few of your books and I thank you for your knowledge and video you have made to help us all. God bless
Thank you Mr Vizard! We appreciate you sharing your knowledge and insights. Really amazing stuff, makes me wonder how much good information has and will be lost due to not getting shared. Super exciting to think MPG is possible as you describe. I am inspired to start planning a maximum MPG build. Thanks again and keep sharing what you can for us who need to think outside the box. Bravo!
My most favorite video from you guys yet. Such great info. Also really loved your mentioning of the WWII P47 Thundetbolt and your correct assessment regarding how good it really was!
Windshield washer fluid in water/meth injection
Im building a blown 354 hemi for my 65 coronet sedan gasser , i would love your help with choosing the right set up for it
I want to add Water -Mehtanl injection on my 1203 CC Buell Air cooled motor.. The Car Water Injection systems are so large and Bulky .. I will look into the new Skidoo system.. The Problem is that it is plugged into the snowmobiles ECM
What type of water-soluble oil would be the best?
Did some googling and Top Lube/Upper Lube came up as a common product used.
Otherwise the most nly water soluble oils I find are for industrial cutting fluid
@@magnusdanielsson2749 I found similar water-soluble oils in the machining industry. If purchased in 1-5 gallon quantities and mixed at 2% as David Vizard mentioned, costs would be ~ 0.60 cents a gallon. An "under-sink" RO system would provide pure water.
DV, Great information!! Back in the late 80's to early 90's my grandfather who was a physicist & engineer for GM long ago, had a daily driven 1981 chevy k20 that had a 400sbc w/ aluminum heads that was running water injection, it had a 6-71blower on top of it and it was on the side of having fairly high compression, even though i was a well educated child at the time i dont recall the psi of boost that was made or what the compression ratio was but if i recall im pretty sure it had to be somewhere around 12.0:1-13.5:1 and ran on 87 octane, making around 700hp without breaking a sweat... there were alot of people in complete awe of how that truck worked... Thats decent power for a daily driven pickup😉
Take Care Mr. Vizard🙏🏼
~ Adam ~
P.s. Being as you enjoyed my last cam video i figured i would add that I have another cam video coming out real soon with a plethora of information & examples that is going to introduce the internet to a conglomeration of more new information to bring about a greater & correct understanding of valve events and their effects...
Mr. BT still gets a very small mention at the end of the vid for his incorrect theory about valve events... I cant let people continue to eat his bs, so at the end i have to at least let him acknowledge himself with his own words... lol
Sounds like an awesome truck!!! And a whole lotta fun!!!
In terms of water droplet size, think about the use of water atomizer currently being used as a vaporizer in a kids room during low humidity winter nights. The vapor exits as a fog.
water misting heads sold at home depot work well.. creates a well atomized fog.
What is the state of the art on adjustable droplet size?
What method of variable flow for water can be made to follow demand?
The crossing point of a four variable ratio needs to be followed closely?
Advance : A/F(Lean): Boost : Water?
Water is essentially free. So, it matters not about the volume needed for a ragged edged super stroker running 20 : 1+CR?
It would be great to work this out using a carb too.
There is a huge opportunity here for anyone sharp enough to provide a controls solution to the formula above.
As for a steam cycle(six stroke)that would be interesting(carbs are out for this one)maybe a CVCC precombustion chamber could be put to good use here?
Lots of possibilities.
Thank you Dave. I very much like this subject. I will begin to crack apart the formula to design a controls setup for a carb version.
Cheers Mate
Here
Mike Skidmore
I have Snow Performance Water Injection on my 3208 Cat265 HP Diesel to reduce exhaust gas temps. I add Methanol in the winter then shut the system off. In the Summer can use 7 gallons of water per day
This is big. I'm sure some guys will pursue this now that DV has given them the road map to follow.
This is decades old technology/techniques.
@@DrewLSsix I don't believe it's well known in the automotive circles. And I don't believe the engineering has been done to optimize it.
David Vizard have you ever used nitromethane fuel on a small block engine? And how much power did it add ? And how did the small block engine hold up?
All without using a power adder such as turbo and blowers.
Really enjoy your videos keep up the great work.
Thank you Mr. Vizard, you are helping me build a draw through turbo SBC in my garage! Your videos have been incredibly helpful and prevented this guy from making mistakes.
i always think about draw trrugh turbo setup, wouldint it draw oil of turbo seal?
@@gedas3419 Nope, because is making boost.
@@gedas3419 Throttle body doesn't really need to be in front of a turbo in a carb, it can be behind it. Then there would be no vacuum in the compressor.
@@unleavenedkaraiteplus3412 most of the time it doesn't
@@gedas3419 The turbo might need an extra seal if the carb is in front of it,
as the turbo would be subjected to the fuel spray from the carb, and full manifold vacuum.
The Corvair turbo (non ball bearing) had that extra seal. I ran one back in the 70s...
Adding an intercooler to the system would get kinda spooky as well.
I remember in my early days of mechanical school, that water injection was used in some WW2 bombers at take off to remove reduce detonation and to keep the combustion chamber clean as well, if I'm not mistaken it is used on the B-52 at take off as well either to clean the chamber or keep the temperature in check.
If in a B52, which is a jet and not piston engine, it would be for cooling but also to increase the mass of the jet exhaust, creating more thrust. Not sure if it does use water injection though, I’ll take your word for it.
@@gordonborsboom7460 look up WITO, or water injection take off. The difference in exhaust is interesting.
go buy a tesla and consign this old fossil to design titanium zimmers and carbon fibre commode pans
and give him a part in the simpsons
just kidding i hve a carbureted volvo t5 turbo blow thru 2 inch su but left in the injector rail for future messing
it runs like a peach
and scotty kilmer says carbs dont work on 5 pot motors
When fuel was horrible my dad installed water injection on his 1974 F250 with a 390. Detonation was so bad at the time and the water injection that was just a squirter that ran off a window washer pump and tank. It was above the carburetor and worked at at least half throttle to wide open. It killed detonation immediately and you could feel the power.
Brilliant presentation, sure the oil companies do not want this figured out. Ford should make this standard system on all eco boost engines.
I'm currently looking for a good ecoboost Fusion with a blown motor (early ecoboost head gasket failure) just for that reason...
It’s easier for me to simply run ethanol. I run e85 on the street, and full ethanol at the strip. Burns cool, no need for water or methanol.
Mr. Vizard, That is one of the most interresting video's you've come up with. Thank you
Bruce Crower's Six cycle engine uses water to generate steam on the fifth cycle by utilizing the heat left over from the power and exhaust cycle.
Came here to make sure someone mentioned the Crower cycle.
The Chevy car was a Geo Metro.
Brain surgery
Chevy Sprint turbo..i know i had one
The Chevy Sprint was the predecessor to the geo metro. This is before Geo existed.
Metro had the 3 cyl engine, Sprint had a 4 cyl, turbo with intercooler. Came in red or white. Intercooler intake was a slot right at the front edge of the rh front of the engine hood.
@@jerrydillon9369 the sprints were 3 cylinder turbo.
Mr Vizard Thank you for this video. I built a 496 8-71 blown engine for my boat. The engine has a blower shop 4 plate billet intercooler and I incorporated a direct port water meth injection system below the intercooler. My goal is to have it run 15 lbs of boost on 91 octane. The water meth system has a progressive controller and can be tuned with a boost curve. After watching your video I have to ask if taking out the methanol in my system would be a benefit. It sure would cut down in costs as well as not having to change the tune on the engine. I will be taking it to dyno when I get past all of my customer obligations.
I built a NA 572 for customer and we had it Dynoed at Westech. The engine did not have a detonation problem when running normally. So one would argue why use the water methanol. I installed a direct port system as well on this engine. With no other changes it picked up an additional 15 hp. The intended purpose of the water meth was to use it for the nitrous enrichment. Steve Brule commented that I was trying to band aid a problem. The engine has a Hogan sheet metal EFI intake and is run off a Holley dominator ecu. I plumbed a Nitrous express direct port unit and jetted it for 300 hp. It is a dry system with the enrichment coming form the engines fuel injectors. Steve talked me out of this and wanted to run race gas. The customer was there with me and since I don't own the engine I went along with Steve's decision. Now that I have watched your video I'm curious if I could have pulled it off with the water injection. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks BK
Your water, meth, soluble oil is exactly what the Oldsmobile jetfire used as "Turbo Rocket Fluid", or, mouse milk as we called it in the parts dept. From a dead stop it wasn't much, but once the turbo spooled up, around 20-25, you wouldn't believe how much power a 215 cu in engine could produce. Poor reliability with 60's technology eventually doomed the project.
SOLUBLE OIL?? I'm not aware of any.. Do you make it by pre-combining the oil with a soap?
yes i imagine some saponifying would be needed, soluble oils are common in machining for cooling/lubrication
@@briantracy1324 Soluable oil is VERY common in manufacturing, at least until synthetics came along for use with carbide inserts on CNC. It's still readily available though. I doubt the same exact stuff is used but the technology has been available over 100 years
You are brilliant
Your show is great and I promote the heck out of it. You have done our Industry a great service. Are you still building engines and camshafts?
Highly thought provoking and informative. Amongst your best. Much thanks!
I use a dry cell type HHO Hydrogen Generator on my 1999 Ford Ranger's 2.5 Liter 4 cylinder engine, which boosts mileage tremendously. This motor require 87 octane ONLY, any more damages the engine according to the repair and owner';s manuals. I have run this for 3 years now and have not had any major problem using it. Matter of fact, this has paid for itself many times over during this time of price gouging by Big Oil. I'm not going for raw power, but range (Better Mileage) and reliability. This engine currently has just shy of 226000 miles on it and this little truck handles the mountains of Southeastern Kentucky like nothing is there. BTW The Ranger is my daily driver. I built this truck from junkyard wrecks. Cost maybe around $500. All I have left to do is give it a decent paint job. I'm looking hard at University Of Kentucky Blue. I do not have a lot of money to work with to start with so I do what I can with what I have.
did your hho kit require a gizmo to trick the O2 sensor,,, or do you drive without its function/engine light on no problems.... (in newer cars>the leaner cleaner> exhaust sensor tells the ecu computer to add more gas=worse mileage)
David Vizard is the 3 cylinder GM car you're thinking of @25:40 the Geo "Metro" ? I re-ringed so many of those 3 bangers as a GM line tech, my service manager referred to me as the "GEO-logist" lol.
I’m going to test out water injection on my mostly stock, low compression, LS motor. I will make my own nozzles and see how big a droplet size is best for my application. I can make the water injection turn on easily with a WOT switch and I will modify my timing table to increase the timing under WOT conditions only. We will see how much power I can gain. Thanks for the video, you are always inspiring me to do things that I might not otherwise!
If I was a WW 2 pilot, gimme a jug. Corsair , and Hellcat and Mustang were just ok .
PW2800 came back running with 2 jugs blown off. Merlins died quickly.
I’m late to the ballgame, but as a student of military aviation history of WWII, the comments regarding the P-47 have merit. The -51 was certainly a good airplane, but its arrival in the 8th Air Force didn’t occur in force until early 1944. The P-38 did all the heavy lifting with long range bomber escort up until that time salvaging day light bombing. The P-47 was range limited but had several advantages in air-to-air (highest roll rate and good in a dive) and tac-air (excellent dive bomber, rugged, excellent firepower). By the time Big Week came along, 38s and 47s bled the Luftwaffe, and pilots in those groups went from green to veteran pilots and the Luftwaffe suffered attrition amongst their veterans as a consequence. Arnold took over from Eaker and replaced the -38 (which along with a photo recce Spit were the FIRST fighters over Berlin, not the -51) with the 51 for long range escort. PLUS, he released these now veteran pilots from close cover escort so they could hunt the Luftwaffe. Therefore, the 51 never had to play defense against the Luftwaffe’s best. Whereas 38 and 47 drivers (short range escort for the 47) did whilst Eaker ran the 8th. The P-47, subsequently, did much of the heavy lifting in the ETO, and the type scored heavily during Big Week which broke the Luftwaffe’s back. That was in March of 1944. The P-51 pilots scored heavily during a time in which the Luftwaffe was broken and Air Superiority already established. Not to gainsay the 51 at all, but the P-47 should not be overshadowed. It was a far superior weapon for tactical aerial operations (as was the P-38 for that matter) and once it got it’s four blade prop and could actually climb, it was every bit the dog fighter as the P-51 when it’s pilot stuck to energy tactics. Anecdotally, I’ve spoken with a good number of pilots who transitioned from the P-38 into the P-51 and a couple who flew the -51 after flying the -47. ALL of them preferred their original mounts, surprisingly - even the P-38 drivers in spite of the problems with that aircraft in the ETO.
Groovy shit.
Dave should of talked about this 20 years ago
Excellent coverage of the subject, maybe a small note of the effect of volume change of liquid to vapor
on the cylinder total pressure and flame speed vs compression ratio on spark timing could be expanded...
I wonder what other interesting subjects Mr Vizard has in his mind? This had my full attention!
Would you recommend specifically DISTILLED water? Also would you recommend MARVEL MYSTERY OIL for the soluble oil? In the late 1970's HOT ROD MAGAZINE did some articles about the benefits of water injection, but I don't think they understood it as well as DV does. And, there were some kits advertised in the magazine back then also.
HotRod magazine doesn't understand anthing. They write advertisements disguised as articles.
Like you mentioned, they were ads for the kits in the back. I'm sure those articles stopped the same time the ads did.
Not to mention you can build that kit from the fish section at Wal*Mart after you ad an empty aluminum beer bottle.
David, I thought I knew a lot about water injection, a lot of which came from your Performance with Economy book. How wrong was I. I will have to watch this again, many times, to even partially absorb some of the information. Thank you for a totally enlightening and entertaining video.
Terry from Australia.
Not Even Close... It is an A Cheap and Amazing But Very Overlooked Solution to Many Problems in the Combust Chambers. Thanks for Sharing
I say this every time but thank you so much Mr.David for everything you share I enjoy and appreciate it
I have a brand new old stock water injection kit from Edelbrock approximately circa. 1975
Could you send me the info on that?
Hey worked great.
I purchased the kit on Ebay, when I received it, the box contained the contents of what would have been 1.5 kits. Still have, what do you want to know?
@@victormiller7440 sorry it took so long to respond. Are you interested in selling the kit/s?
in the late 70s driving a 66 283 automatic Bellaire we were getting better than 25 miles per gallon average driving from Illinois to Maryland and back.
All because of water-methanol injection we were playing with. The problem was finding water when we filled up the gas tank😂 on the trips. As a machinist water soluble cutting oils worked perfect keeping things from rusting. Amazing what college kids will do to save gas money.
71 302 Torino, C4 , 24 mpg daily drive to and from Seminole co, to SeaWorld and to my job . Wore out two transmissions first was factory and 145, they rebuilt it before they knew me ( was the mom in laws) and it lasted 35k and I had a friend who built it. Never burned oil .
You won't see 17 to 1 comp on 87 pump gas guys. Bloodviking
our 17/1 was on kerosene
I'll help sir, NACA > National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics. Pure genius on the ingested water cooling cycle engine!
What is the additive we should use for valve cleaning with DI engines?
Brain surgery
I've given quite a bit of thought to running two common rail injectors in each cylinder . One fuel, one water, and yes random, computer, controlled, firings and steam / cooling squirts . Also, much consideration of using the heat extraction as steam expansion . And yes, this is an expansion ( no pun ) of Bruce Crower's idea .
Chevy Metro.
@@tomstulc9143 GEO Metro...
the trick would get to get a GDI pump that will put up with water. A few degrees after ignition, shoot in a micro-spritz of water and get a second power stroke.
Along with all the cooling of the waste heat that would heat the radiator and exhaust pipe.
The local Kia plant is close to my house and I always wanted to get a friend to seal a pump so I could look at doing that to my 454BBC jetboat.
Turns out the federal gobment really frowns on 'liberating' free-trade parts that haven't been taxed. lol
@@earlbrown,,, see above .
i've heard of using a haltech controlled solenoid> mapped off gas injector signal duty cycles= to trigger water injector... samething as diy> 555timer&pwm circuits- for a few dollars👍
Good morning David
I have a question for you, for a turbo engine with water injection, what would be the correct scheotrometic mixture? Thank you.
Best regards
Goyo
🔔😎🇺🇸
1982-85 Holley marketed a water injection system: a windshield washer tank and orifice to mount over the carb, activated by a vacuum switch. I put one on a stock 350/350 (11/1 comp?) SBC to let us run 91 pump gas without mixing in 25% green avgas (100/130 octane).
Has just 2/10 second of tip in ping but worked great. Used 1 gallon of water every 120 miles if you babies it. Aggressive driving about 25 miles. 😁 Nothing trick, but it made the car drivable on that poor gas.
I might still have a brand new kit never been out of the box. 🤔
I’m interested in the unit in the box if you do still have it…?
Only to a limit u can use water inj. Because there is a limit for the amount of water/steam expansion works against you by washing oil off cyl. Walls creating more parasitic loss and increased blow by dilution of crankcase oil. Also narrows the parameters for tuning your engine with timing and fuel curve. It's either right or NOT. water inj. Has it's place and can be effective but only upto 30ish extra HP on a street car. I have some experience with this, let me know your thoughts.
How about water injection on a turbo diesel?
There may be advantages to cooling the intake air temp on a diesel engine, but for the most part it helps engines that use spark ignition (gasoline or methanol/ethanol) because spark knock and detonation can be held off at higher spark advance settings which is very important in making the most power out of an engine whether naturally aspirated or boosted.
Thanks!
Over 10,000C° to water become plasma, so yeah we can pretty much say water has infinite octane
Aqua Mist. Well, David Vizard forget to mention the price tag. ..which is of course high. Simply: free fuel does not exist.
"tow car was faster than the race car"
Love it !!! 😁
If you do go more in depth on this, I'd be interested to hear your take on adding methanol for charge air cooling purposes. My understanding is that although water has a much greater effect on cooling from latent heat of vaporization/enthalpy of change, it can only do so much until the air becomes saturated, but due to the law of partial pressures, the methanol "doesn't know" the air is saturated with water, and will evaporate adding further cooling, so much so that you can get sub-ambient charge temperatures. The science is well beyond me though.
great content ! Did you publish a book on water injection ? Can I run 14/1 pistions with my procharger on water injection ?
I believe David was speaking normally aspirated at 14to1. That would be quite "fiddly" as David would say to make and calibrate successfully.
I sure it could and has been done. The problem could be if anything goes wrong you have just destroyed everything before you could even shut it off.
I've been booted of more than one forum for saying exactly what you're saying and I've been using it since my first turbo in 82. It's all in that book by Hugh McInnes and there used to be a download of NACA report no ??? which used to be on the Rice Racing site.
NACA: The National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics. Created in 1915 to
supervise and direct American aeronautical research
2:58 N.A.C.A. - National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics
The US agency predecessor to NASA, they published so much amazing research in the 1920s and 1930s regarding engine tuning, propeller design, and especially aerodynamics for everything from intake ducts to radiators to control surfaces. They even released detailed plans for specific wing shapes (NACA airfoils), research that benefited planes like the P51 Mustang.
An explosion is when the flame speed is faster than the speed of sound. Same as a plane breaking the sound barrier.
Burns, does not explode, under normal combustion. An explosion is detonation.
28:1 with 80lbs of boost. Water injected, compound turbos. When the exhaust turns white, it's only using 10% fuel. 4500 hp and 5000lbs of torque. It's a combo of early WWII aircraft turbo diesel with nitrous injection and steam locomotives mixing in 10% diesel fuel. Methanol has been used for additional output longer than you have been around David.
What did they use it for?
Who built this
@@dennis-nz5im tractor pullers.
@dennis-nz5im I've built many like it. Same way we can change the color of smoke on turbine jet powered dragster.
I would like you to expand on this subject. You seem quite experienced and knowledgeable.
I think Harry Ricardo, did a lot of tables for WWII planes. What you seem to be describing is a setup creating enough heat through compression to create a steam engine here.
Build it here for us?
Thanks for sharing. Very eye opening!!
I'm running 93 octane and 10.75:1 static compression. Is there any advantage to me using water injection with the better fuel and lower compression???
Absolutely yes.
I couldn't get the 70 SBC 350/350 to be driveable on 93 without water. OR 1/4 green avgas. Used the Holley system, it worked.
Perhaps inject the water before the compressor mightbe DV.