Its kind of crazy how people like Snyder and others who think Superman is unrealistic or should be as ugly as we are, have already been analyzed through people like Manchester Black and Luthor. Fact of the matter is he despite his power actually strives to work for that ideal world no matter how hard. Its trully an underrated thing about Supes' character
I mostly agree. But I enjoyed the Ultraman and injustice stories as well. I just think it can be overdone, but when done right it can be very appealing. My prime example of a Superman turned evil that's interesting was in Superman Vs the Elite. He was temporarily portrayed as a bad guy during those events, but the final twist was quite interesting and I think helped sell the idea of Superman ultimately.
@fightingleaf whole heartedly agreed. That's why my list of approved evil superman stories doesn't include more things. I'm sure more stories have played the angle well enough but for the symbol of hope that he is I'm starting to get sick of them only playing these stories over and over. It seems to be only evil superman or death of superman that seems to get made into mass media anymore.
The whole thing about people finding Superman boring and lacking in personality is mainly a western phenomenon. In much of Africa, were i am from, and most of the world (many manga heroes were inspired by him) he is still beloved and adored as a great hero and personality mainly because our societies don't have the weird cultural obsession with relativism and cynicism and we prefer heroic characters who stand for good, no matter how cliched it seems❤
Yup exactly i have seen asian audience to like characters with fictitious powers Naruto and most manga or anime characters and it is not unusual for them. Hating on Superman is a western phenomenon.
It's never cliched. I love that's how you guys feel! The people who say he is boring are the real boring ones because they have no original thought in their minds they just repeat what is heard. Superman is the best and always will be.
I think my favorite spin on that is how he was made a little more angry and prideful, but still wanted to uphold justice as in the Gods and Monsters universe. And its cause his parents were mexican farmers, kind of under the boot at the time, so I can see why even if they didn't teach him to hate or bully opressors back as Superman he'd want to
@@kennethsatria6607I would have loved to see a Jor-El sired Clark deal with that rather then a Zod sired one. Are we who we are by Nature or Nurture. Zoe's son was much more of a Realist then Jor-El's.
thats what makes that Superman as a URSS champion one shot a good one in my book: he is STILL the same good person thirsty for justice, his nurture only skews him to other way of achieving that
I think we're finally in a time where people want to believe in a good guy again. We've had enough of the angst and dark takes on heroes. We need to see that a good guy can beat the odds by just staying true to who he is and by simply wanting to help other people just because he can. Superman is Superman to us because he doesn't give up no matter what, that what he says is always the truth, and that we can count on him to be there for us when we need him most. We need Superman now more than ever.
The common collective public, there has always been more niche groups that wanted heroes like Superman, but the stuffy suits, the filmmakers, and the common public dismissed their voices. Most of them have just eventually learned their lesson that what they wanted just wasn't good enough for them and everyone else, and now that some of them wondered why, they now have the winds blowing in the opposite direction. Overall, though, great assessment of the situation, Ferguson! It will now truly take a Superman to sweep us off our feet.
@@StoryTeller796 Thats why Im very hopeful about James Gunn's Superman Legacy film as he has proven not only to be an incredible CBM director/filmmaker in general, but he truly cares about these characters and what they mean to the world and writes them to be human, regardless of how outlandish the characters might be, look at how he's reinvented the Guards of the Galaxy who were once a C-list group of oddballs are now household names that have a phenomenal trilogy fleshing each and every one of them as tragic, complex and multifaceted characters that have made mistakes but reconcile in each other to accept each other and love for their mistakes. James Gunn is also proven to be a massive fan of Superman ever since he was a kid and has a deep connection to what Superman means to the world and how he remains to be a gentle kind soul that sees the best in everyone. Everything he said about the movie being an exploration in the power of compassion and empathy in a cynical and pessimistic world is everything Ive always wanted to see in a Superman movie, and I have faith he will give us possibly the most faithful take on Superman ever since Christopher Reeves.
@@milkiassamuel780 As a Superman fan seeing people actually using Lex Luthor's opinions of Superman as an argument why Superman is outdated is really eye opening so much they don't even realize it
There is no odds with Superman. Having odds means the possibility of loosing, which Superman doesn’t have. Superman has been written like a plot device for decades. Just overpowering any situation, or developing some random superpower to handle the situation. That is not a good character.
I think the most ideal criticism of Superman can be summarized by a quote from the Green Goblin. "The one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. In spite of everything you've done for them, eventually, they'll hate you. Why bother?"
Dood? That quotes all about how Norman fails to get Spidey; how Osbourne can't see beyond self interest or conceive of personal responsibility (ol' webheads catchphrase, yeah) in the slightest degree. Goblin's got Spidey stuck and he's monolouging trying to break Spidey's spirit but he's so small minded and hard hearted he doesn't know he's standing there just telling on himself that he's a full on garbage person; it's famous for that dood.
@@twilimessyeah and great moment for Shadow. Even knowing the world will turn on him and even result in his effective death, he chooses to do the right thing regardless.
I fell out of Superman for a bit. But then I saw someone talk about Superman vs The Elite and decided to watch it. This lead me to watching the DCAU again after so many years. It's been great. Also Death of Superman is my favorite Super movie.
Superman vs the Elite is so good. Definitely a top tier Superman movie, it's honestly right next to the first Superman film with Chris Reeves in my opinion, hopefully that film could possibly be adapted into live action someday.
@@thealternativelook Even people who aren't Superman fans and played injustice don't even understand it was Metropolis being blown up and millions of innocent lives taken that was the catalyst for why he became a dictator I'm glad you brought that up
Superman the Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited all have my favorite incarnation of the character. The stories got dark and outside forces were trying to tempt him to go dark but at the moment of truth, he revealed who he really was: a man who is not a murderer. He’s a man of principle and a believer of peace & justice.
Kingdom Come's Superman also loses Lois because of the Joker, but he didn't kill him - Magog does, and then he testifies in court that Magog shouldn't have killed the Joker but Magog wins the case; gets free and is even acclaimed by the crowd and media, so Superman retires from humanity thinking he is no longer needed. That is truly the Superman I love, and if some people find Superman boring, it's only because the stories they read weren't well written. Superman has a good sense of humour, he is optimistic, deeply love humans and makes a good contrast with Batman, even if they share the same moral code. I may alos add the example of Frank Miller's DK III where Batman realises that all this time before Superman never used his full power and was constantly holding back to not harm his enemies - something similar though to the Marvel Universe's Spider-Man (who always held back to not harm his enemies as well), which makes your parallel between the two even more relevant. Superman is abd always should be the embodiment of Truth and Justice - period.
been a long time reader i think what makes a good superman story is knowing the core of the character, superman is supposed to represent the best in us the best in humanity, his family is also the core of his beliefs, Superman can't physically be challenged that's boring, it has to come from the mental to show that despite who he is that he is still imperfect like all of us.
Superman not physically being challenged is why his character sucks. Why can’t he face someone stronger than him, and beat them through using his other powers.
@@gak1146 no he didn’t. Superman literally died fighting doomsday. Everytime he fights doomsday he’s getting smacked. Gtfo with this ignorant ass comment.
The way you were describing how Superman wouldn’t turn bad and how ridiculous that notion is, completely reminded me of the argument I, and many others made about how ridiculous it was that Disney thought Luke Skywalker would even have the slightest thought of killing his own nephew because he sensed a little Darkness in him. It was the dumbest thing ever! Edit: Just got to the 22:40 section where you mentioned this! Nice! Amazing video!
he nearly killed his own dad, that wasn't even thinking about it, he actually was about to do it. remember that kylo's memory of the scene was not the correct turn of events, then again last jedi haters don't pay attention to the movie so i wouldn't be surprised if you didn't realise that
@@dankerbellNo we very much paid attention. Both recollections of the events were character assassination. Also there's a difference between Vader and Kylo. Ben hadn't done anything. Vader was actively attacking him and threatening his sister. Luke had absolutely no reason to attack Ben
@@dankerbell thank you for telling me that you’re retarded and didn’t pay any attention to Return of the Jedi. Vader is a literal warlord who killed countless people and was actively attacking and provoking Luke (who didn’t wanna fight his father at first anyway) Kylo had a bad dream. It’s not the same. Retarded last Jedi defenders like you should’ve realized by now that this argument literally holds no weight. You clearly didn’t pay attention to The Last Jedi OR Return of the Jedi. Sit down. Stop trying to conflate 2 scenes that don’t match in anyway. Good to know that retarded TLJ defenders still exists 8 years later. I guess your stupider really is ever lasting so I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t realize that.
Yep, its like going to see a batman movie and seeing him as this hope, justice, boy-scout, cracking jokes. Wonder why ppl were turned off by Snyder's Superman.... These Hollywood writers/directors are just too lazy or cant imagines past the "absolute power always corrupts absolutely" trope
@Peramiiy Even with Batman, Hollywood seems to only focus on certain aspects of the character. I'd argue it's the equivalent of the way Marvel editors treat Spider-man. They have an idea of what he's supposed to be, and they can never let him stray far from that. For Batman, he's always a dark and brooding loner. The recent the Batman movie was essentially a safe bet for WB. Trying to recapture the success of the Dark Knight trilogy. Where's the fun? Where's the Batfamily? Campiness is a part of that character and his history. I want a definitive version of Batman where they find a way to balance the serious side with the campiness. Don't think we'll ever get that, unfortunately.
@fluffynator6222 Can he just be that from the beginning? Why do we need stories about Young Bruce or Old Bruce? I've seen it before. It's boring. Where's Batman in his prime? Haven't gotten that since 2008 with the Dark Knight. Where's Batman teaching others? Being a father figure. Where's every other aspect that makes up the character? Why be so ashamed of the campy side and light side of Batman? Screw realistic and gritty, give me fun.
The thing I liked most about 90's Superman is that he had NO powers what-so-ever until he was a late teenager. To me, this communicates that while his body is not human, his mind and soul very much is.
It's quite simple to me. If you don't like the original character of Superman, then don't get involved with producing entertainment about him. That goes for all of the these characters. If you don't like the characters, stay away. Yeah, I know they like the money they can make. But that makes it even worse. Don't do it just for the money. But unfortunately that won't happen very often.
@@lookinforthe70s yh ive never understood this if your not a fan of a character or story why are you making stuff based on it in the first place why not make something based on a character or movie you do like bet it would turn out alot better
Why. A director can improve his reputation by not making him a plot device. I’d say changing it were Superman came to earth at the age of ten, and actually witnessing krypton near destruction would look better, and give him a real desire to save the earth.
@@robertrainford6754If you're a competent creator, you don't need to change Superman to make him more than a plot device because he already is more than that. Superman vs the Elite and the comic that inspired it peak comic books and most of that is due to the writin of Superman. They don't do anything all that new with him. They don't change or bastardize him. They just reaffirm the same character traits he's had since his inception in a world that's trying to make him change and it's perfect
Spider-man is the venn diagram center between Batman and Superman. Change my mind. Like Superman he's a superpowerd down to earth idealist who wears a red and blue costume and who's alter ego is a normal average Joe who works at a news company. Like Batman he's a strategic tactical fighter and inventor with a strict no killing rule who uses grappling hooks a lot and is a popular superhero based on an animal that a lot of people are afraid of.
If they're trying to make Superman relatable and make him cynical and dark, they're saying that the modern audience is cynical and dark. Instead of trying to flatter the audience saying Superman is like them, instead try harder to understand the modern audience and write stories that relate the original and timeless positivity and hope from Superman in a way that is more contextual and relatable with people who are more cynical and dark.
It's always been funny to me that the man WB picked to write and direct for Superman almost word for word quoted Manchester Black in what's so funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way
@@zanerobbins3794 Only documentary directors can say that (but they don't) about superhero fans, not Hollywood directors of superhero movies, lol! 😂😅😆🤓🤣
Green Goblin killing Gwen Stacy is different than the _Injustice_ situation for three reasons: 1) Gwen and Peter were not married. 2) It was not by Peter's hand that Gwen died. 3) New York didn't explode. This is not to say that I think anything like _Injustice_ should ever happen in the prime continuity, but I just want to establish the difference in scale here. You know, Hal Jordan, the best of the GLC, was possessed by Parallax after Coast City was destroyed, so...
Batman "strict moral code" is a retcon/half written detail added to is character. Batman was drawn and written by Bob Kane and Bill Finger. Kane got most credit due to being an employee while Finger was a free agent. Kane mostly wrote Batman as a Pulp Action Hero who uses guns and kills criminals, kinda like The Shadow and The Phantom. Heck, he killed the bad guy in is very first comic. The "No guns, no killing" rule was forced onto him by the Comics Code Authority, the Bill Finger writing took over. The reason movies show Batman killing is because they are staying true to Bob Kane's Batman, it's okay to prefer Bill Finger's but still never ignore the Bob Kane vigilante Batman. I personally want to see something different from Year 1, I want to see a Batman story that tells HOW he goes from violent pulp action hero vigilante to redeemed superhero and his Rogues represent a reminder of who he once was and is trying to move on from. Also, DCEU coulda been saved if JL revealed that Darksied came to Earth, fought the Ideal Justice League and lost, but then captured Flash, harnessed the Flash's ability to time travel and then went back to tinker with the hero's origins, like intimidating Jonathan Kent to instill doubt into Clark as a kid, so that by the time he arrives on Earth, the League is too broken to beat him, but The Flash managed to counter him by warning Bruce in the past. In my humble opinion, Injustice shoulda had Batman be more inclined to go bad instead of Superman. Seeing Superman, another ideal hero who reminded him of Harvey Dent, fall down the dark path by killing Joker result in Batman going rogue and looking for another Joker to fight but can't. His increased aggression pushes Superman to form the Regime to put an end to Batman's extremism. That way, when the Prime Justice League come to the Injustice reality, they are LED to believe Superman went bad when he killed Joker by Batman so they would help him, but then they learn Batman was manipulating them to help him kill his Justice League and by the time they discover the truth, he starts putting Tower of Babel into affect, making the Justice League underdogs against Batman. By the end, Injustice Batman would be beaten and told he's no better than Joe Chill if he kills the Justice League. Injustice Batman would then turn himself in and the Regime, while seeming looking like a dictatorship is actually trying to stop people who followed the renegade Batman.
When most people watch movies like The Boys, Injustice or Invincible, they think like: "this is reality, if I had super strength I would...." It can be clearly seen that most young people exposed too early to social networks consider characters like Homelander to be realistic, role models like Superman(Injustice) can show that today's movies have partly influenced social morality makes people despise doing the right thing, a sad truth In the last decade we had some many anti-heroes, morally gray characters, dark-and-edgy or brooding Noir types, that finally seeing a guy who is just...good, with no caveats, a simple man who wants to help everyone...it's like remembering that you're allowed to be happy.
invincible is pro-superheroes, the boys is the edgy "this is what people would be like with superpowers", omni-man is not a person from earth and knows that, and redeems himself anyway, i hate how invincible always gets lumped in with this lot by people who don't pay attention or don't read just because omni-man resembles superman
Back before the new 52, Darkseid made a similar comment... something like: "The only possible problem I see on Earth is the Kryptonian. If he _ever_ puts aside his stupid* morality and brings his full power to bear, I will be in trouble." * "Stupid" by Darkseid's assessment.
The last time we got a truly good Superman story on screen was the all star adaption with Dwayne McMuduffie shortly before he passed. DC hasn’t been the same without him. RIP
Because Superman is the beacon of hope that stand high. No matter what happens, who comes, who wants to destroy moral and safety he will be there to stop it. No but, if or and. He is the one that stands when everyone fails and falls. He is the archetype, the embodyment of true justice, kindness, heart and hope. There is no fighting him, there is no lilling him, he is above , he is the notion of peace when everything fails There is Superman... and there is everything and everyone else after. The count is for the number two, the number one is not a discussion.
"He's always holding back." You fan boys are what drives the hate for this character. Screw you fanboys more and more people dislike this character, it's growing daily. He's an op Mary Sue.cope assholes.
In Superior Spider-Man Doc Ock possessed Spider-Man's body, and was shocked, even horrified, by how much Peter has to hold back in order to avoid killing people with his strength. And Spider-Man possesses only a fraction of Superman's strength. As Superman is quoted saying, he lives in a world of cardboard, and is constantly holding back to avoid destroying everything he touches.
Because it's massively inconsistent. Superman has shifted between city block levels of power all the way to universal levels of power. In some versions he gets brought down by a taser and in others he no sells nuclear explosions.
I remember I used to be an MCU fangirl and I hadn't watched a singular movie from DC because people told me they were bad or cringy.... I hadn't even watched The Dark Knight series HOWEVER after Endgame, the quality that the MCU was putting out was bleh so I decided: What the heck let's give DC a shot *I was shook* So first off I watch Man of Steel all the way to Zach Snyder's Justice League (now I'm mad because he wrote the character wrong *but* at the time I was shook at how dark DC gets and how powerful Superman is. I then watched the New 52 DCAU movies in chronological order and those weren't bad at all one of my top favorites is The Death of Superman (great movie ) After that I watched other movies before the DCAU and the Tomorrowverse I liked Superman: Man of Tomorrow, I enjoyed everything I even watched Smallville and really liked it, especially the Season 10 Finale ' But by far the best one I have seen is Superman vs The Elite.... Not only is the climatic fight scene awesome but the entire message of the movie and who Superman is *pure perfection* ---- So that how I became an MCU fangirl to a sworn DC girl to the day I die. Oh and can't forget about my boi Barry (love his comics and animated movies )...The Flash also wasn't bad at least one the beginning seasons That said GO WATCH SUPERMAN VS THE ELITE if you haven't already YOU WILL THANK ME LATER *bows of stage* If you want to see some Superman feats I did write this a while back (it has many feats many haven't heard of ): qr.ae/prPAPN
"So first off I watch Man of Steel all the way to Zach Snyder's Justice League (now I'm mad because he wrote the character wrong but at the time I was shook at how dark DC gets and how powerful Superman is." He wrote the entirety of DC Comics wrong in _Justice League._ Darkseid retreating from a mere flesh wound? Where were the Omega Beams in that fight? And why were Motherboxes treated as McGuffins, they're really not that uncommon in the world of the New Gods. And why were Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter both missing as founding members of the Justice League? I know that Manhunter dipped in at the end to offer his support, but Earth didn't even have a Green Lantern at the time of the film. And what's up with Aquaman hating Atlantis? Edit: I'm forgiving him about Cyborg being a founding member of the Justice League because the studio probably mandated that.
I think a lot of more recent comics have still captured the character. Rebirth, Up In The Sky, American Alien, even Bendis's run had a good Superman(everything else around him wasn't great). Then you have Superman and Lois also righting the ship. I do think we can get people to love Superman again. It just takes the right person at the helm
I just hate Dan Didio and Brian Michael Bendis for ruining the rebirth and trying to kill Clark and Lois's Marriage again because Dan Didio has that same philosophy that Joe Quesada has that Married Superheroes don't make for good drama and are "not relatable". Unforgivable. By the way Dan Didio blocked me on Instagram.
@@bradleyrenfroe2776 Why does he think married superheroes don't make for good drama? Has he ever heard of America's high divorce rate?? "Not relatable?!" People marry and have kids in real life! I'm sure lots of spouses could relate to that! 🤣
@@bradleyrenfroe2776I hate Bendis for what he did to Jon. Forcing him to age up was the worst decision ever. And it destroyed one of the best friendships in comics with Jon and Damien.
I'd like to think if Metropolis was nuked and Lois Lane died that Superman could go to the Justice League for the love and support from long-time companions rather than the comforts of authoritarianism
To be perfectly fair, WW influenced a vulnerable Clark to go full authoritarian and Batman, his best friend, was busy investigating what happened rather than being there for Clark. While Batman wasn't the most...expressive... character, he also knows when a person needs someone to just be there for them. Injustice pretty much butchered the Big 3's characters, though Supes' is most noticeable.
Saying that recent comics have been too focused on pushing ideologies, seems pretty silly to me. Especially talking about Superman, whose greatest stories have always been about his ideology. It’s fine to disagree with certain ideologies contained in a piece of media, but just express that. Don’t pretend that you’re upset about pushing ideology when you’re talking about how great Superman is.
Kingdom Come > Injustice Superman Red Son > Injustice What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? > Injustice Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? > Injustice Dark Superman stories can be done without ruining the character
I had heard that Zach Snyder wanted to make _Batman v. Superman_ a one-for-one adaptation of _Dark Knight Returns,_ but WB wouldn't let him do that because Superman is a minor antagonist in _Dark Knight Returns_ (as I understand it). WB wanted to make it seem like both characters were on equal moral footing, and in the process, forced Snyder to make both characters mentally and morally deficient. I've never been Snyder's biggest defender (I use the term "Snyder Cut" to refer to most things that are "darker and edgier" than they have any right to be with characters acting completely out of character, like the live-action _Titans_ show), but I will step-in in this case.
long story short: people who say that superman is lame or doesn't fit current times (especially snyder) are idiots who saw superman and decided 'wow this guy sucks, he can fly"
Action Comics with Aaron Kuder was some of the best Superman to release after the new 52. It was a throw back to the light hearted silver age one off adventures and Kuder’s art was beautiful.
As for Man of Steel the problem is that Snyder is still simping for Ayn Rand and her stupid philosophy I miss superman being a father to young John it was the best one of his stories it was modern but still had the core of the character while now they aged up Johnathan taking away most of his childhood and taking away Clark from earth
I criticized Snyder's DC movies and said I was not for the Snyder Cut and this guy came after me with six paragraphs explaining why I am in the wrong for not wanting the Snyder Cut because it is justice for Zack. His fan base is almost cultish. They will tolerate no descent from anyone. They literally were policing the internet looking for anyone they considered a heretic. I also refused to see Joker because that is not the Joker. We need the iconic versions of the characters. They will come after you with the argument "If your against the sjws then your supposed to support the Joker movie". I am so sick of the SJWs and The Anti SJWs alike
You should have included the full Grant Morrison quote. His take wasn’t strange or unrelated. He was simply saying that patriarchal structures played a role in warping the perception of Superman and what’s acceptable for his character, which is 100% true.
I think Superman based on my knowledge would at most kill Joker, then, knowing what he's done, resign from superheroics entirely, because with the death of his morals, came the death of superman he actually did kill Mr. Myxzptlk in a alt universe comic, then he stripped his powers with gold kryptonite and retired
While the outcome would be the same, the circumstances aren't. Myxzptlk literally threatened to end everyone and everything. Leaving him no real choice in the matter. Joker's already apprehended. It's just him lashing out.
I actually have an idea about using a open-world game to express both Superman and Klark's lifestyle by enteractive mechanics by players. I'm planning to do a UE5 demo of such idea and it's not only about Superman yet also about a Batman game's concept with my fellows in two years. And I will kickstarter such project.
Captain America is also the greatest embodiment of what it means to be a great person, to do the right thing, and to use hope and optimism in the correct way.
Which is why the Superman/Captain America amalgam "Super Soldier" in the Amalgam universe works so well. Their power levels might be vastly different, but at heart there's a lot of common ground between Clark Kent and Stever Rogers.
We ignore that batman would 100 percent would become a world spanning dictator if he loosened his moral code. The guy is insane. joking aside good job on the video.
As much as I do enjoy the Injustice universe (and I think the comic does a decent job of justifying his gradual march toward where he ends up in the game), switching the roles of Batman and Superman would have been a far more compelling story than it already was.
@@Tyler_W I feel like evil Superman is an overdone trope in fiction. Heck man deconstructionist comics about superheroes are overdone to death too and I don't particularly care for them.
@@Tyler_Wpeople overestimate Batman’s powers. He is just peak human. Humans overall still have flaws and it’s literally impossible to think of every single outcome possible or have knowledge of things he doesn’t know much about. Superman taking over the world is convincing because he has the strength to do so but Batman would need to give himself superpowers or do it in a more smart way like becoming a political leader. Giving Batman powers ruins the character; the point is that Batman despite just being human is still brave enough to try fight odds he can’t win. That’s why no Batman story has him pre plan everything before it happens.
@@Tyler_WIt's just how Batman instigates alot of what happens in the Injustice timeline. He pushes Clark to become more and more extreme to counter his schemes and plans yet brushes it aside like his hands are totally clean.
You know, what I look in a lot of my favorite characters, especially those like The Puppet from FNAF, King Boo from Luigi's Mansion, and several Disney protagonists like Luz Noceda or Quasimodo, those positive traits that I see that they have (with the exception of King Boo, honestly, I'll have to pass those traits down to Luigi but King Boo just seems so cool!) have similarities with Superman. So in the most roundabout way possible, Superman is kind of my favorite character and my main inspiration for my own character. Zack Snyder didn't have a real reason, he just did it cause he felt like it was the best choice he could make. Here’s my advice and my way of looking at redefining characters or franchises, you redefine a comic book character the same way you redefine The SCP Foundation, The Backrooms, Trevor Henderson monsters, Sonic.exe, Slenderman, Smile Dog, Eyeless Jack, Laughing Jack, or any other creepypasta. If you do something that just feels right, that just feels like a direction you can pull the character in, then you must do a lot of that thing right. If you have 100% of a good idea to execute, use 100% of that good idea and execute it as flawlessly as you can. I believe "The Batman"'s version of Batman didn't kill, mostly because the people behind that movie didn't put any time, energy, and interest into doing it. ... My reaction to these modern Superman stories is to create an in-universe story that takes place in the Marvel and DC universe. This is to create a story about a boy who was neglected by the school system. He later grew up to become a superhero who nowadays attempts to hold people responsible for their actions through the art of storytelling. This young man is none other than The StoryTeller, and he runs a smalltime independent "company" (it's much more of like a public club than a company) that prints an entire comic book run telling multiple stories both a resource creation for his schemes to go after villains and as a front for those schemes and his secret identity.
I have yes it's a very good animated movie, I really liked it, it really captures the spirit of who Superman is and tells a really cool and modern take on his origin.
38:55 The sole exception is when vampires get involved but even then vampires are undead creatures of the night so if anything he’s more so saving them by making it to where their souls and or corpses can rest peacefully instead of being in this undead state where they have to suffer.
Great video! Just one question. What did you think of Smallvilles take on Superman/Clark. It's my favorite live action take on the character because it brings the character's personality that has been missing with other adaptations. Also the show and character wasn't too dark or too campy. We also get great side characters and a great Lex Luthor adaptation too in my opinion.
Found this channel by accident and I agree 💯 Supes is my favorite... figured I was the only one that thought this way regarding these characters particularly Supes... Superman and Lois has become my favorite show in place of Smallville because they don't attempt to redefine the character just put a modern spin on it...thx for this I really appreciated everything you said Supes is the most human of us all even the late great Stan Lee said "...the reason my Marvel characters are imperfectly relatable is because they're all trying to imitate him (Supes) & give us something to believe in and hope for..."👈💯💪
I feel like I have to explain this to everyone who hates The Last Jedi: Luke does not DECIDE to kill Ben, he CONTEMPLATES the idea of killing him, but hesitates. Ben misread the situation and thought he was going to kill him, when he really decided not to.
@@benmalsky9834 Oh yeah, I agree. I'm just saying it's weird that everyone seems to think that Luke truly wanted to actually kill Ben. It's Luke. He's the most powerful Jedi. If he wanted to kill Ben, then Ben wouldn't be walking around, he'd be dead. Since we see Ben walking around, we know that Luke didn't want to kill him.
I mean Luke is standing over him, lightsaber draw and seemingly ready to strike. You can see how that could be taken as "wanting to kill him." My problem is more with the fact that Luke got there in the first place. He already faced this trial in the form of Darth Vader. The right hand man of the Emperor. The guy who killed Luke's mentor. Despite this, and despite the fact that Luke never knew him as Anakin, Luke walked into the lion's den with the goal of redeeming his father. Even when provoked by Vader and the Emperor, he stops himself from striking down Vader. He chooses to trust in the whatever good is left in Vader and to defy the Emperor at the risk of his own life. So how in the world would this character even CONSIDER killing his nephew because HE MIGHT turn to the dark side? Then after that does he try to right the wrong? No. He runs. He hides. He abandons his loved ones. Or at least, that was why I had a problem with how they portrayed Luke in The Last Jedi.
You missed the mark on interpretting jonathan kent saying "maybe" to letting kids die. A.) This one is worried about his son B.) He was considering what it meant to the world being turned upside down and turning chaotic if they learned about clarks existence. This also exhoed by Perry White when he tells lois, she was smart for burying her Alien story by saying "can you imgine what the world would become, if this got out." Johnathan kent disagrees with himself as he says "maybe" that, if seven kids died but the world stayed in tact, eould that be fair. Yes/no.
00:52 Ever since i was a little kid i've always loved the idea of a character coming from another planet with these amazing abilities and almost becomes more human than we are even though he's not native to this planet or this world. The fact that you fail to recognize how insulting and disrespectful that is to your own species is outstanding. What you just described and displayed is a colonizers mindset! And in the Superman comics they go further than trying to make Kal-El “almost” more human than humans. Many prominent characters like Batman and Lois Lane flat out state that this non human is more human than the rest of us! Which is just wild when you think k about it. Bruce Wayne is a psycho who hates his humanity so much that he calls himself, Batman and dresses up as a bat. Lois Lane is a race traitor shacking up with some alien and cross breeding with him. So neither one of them are the best representations of humanity. It is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then... he shoots fire from the skies and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him. - Batman
I believe the best version of Superman is the version pitched by super Hollywood producer/ screenwiter Max Landis, the son of legendary 80's film maker John Landis . In which Superman is more human. He is a guy who is getting to know him self as his develop powers develop. In the same way there are no stories of Christ between the time he is 12 years old til his adult life, Superman from my experience story is the same. I'm not calling him Christ like. I'm just saying that nuance is like the Christ story, but in Landis's " American Alien" he explores Clark Kent at 17 years old getting into trouble and uses puberty as an intro point to his powers. Landis's Martha and John Kent are younger which allows them to grow up with Clark and make the mistakes that teach him right from wrong... I love this I'm a big fan!!!
Superman has always been a Moses allegory Zack Snyder and those who view Superman as a Christ Archetype don't understand Superman nor actually listened to Joel and Jerry who said multiple times he's basically a superhero Moses The difference is Clark was adopted and raised by a working class farm family, Moses was adopted by a wealthy Egyptian family
Imo, the best part of Injustice 1, the game, was at the very end when the "real" Superman reinforces the promise Batman made to him if he should ever go full evil. The fact that he even has the foresight to acknowledge this as a possibility and makes plans to stop, or even have himself killed, shows how much he does care about the world around him.
Weird that a Max Landis would suggest a "Batman does the R-Word Situation". Seems to be right up his alley. Besides mentioning this guy, great video man. Loving a lot of your points here.
I have to say it again. You make such a great point that Pa Kent in Snyder verse was the MAJOR FLAW. He was FAR TOO SYNICAL. Superman, already has to deal with a sinical world so his needed to be a source of his optimism. I forgot how much that was a part of the story that I connected to and loved as a child. And from a broken home myself, was the reason why superman was so important to me. He was the north star of my conscious. And his days on the farm filled my imagination in my own yard.
Pa wasn't being cynical he was being Realistic. The man didn't want a 12 year old boy risking himself saving people, This ain't Harry Potter or Percy Jackson. You guys are so focused on getting to Superman you forget about Clark.
@@Fenris30 Actually, Pa Kent in Man of Steel was an overprotective dad of an invulnerable space god kid and an Objectivist Author Avatar, because Zack Snyder is one and tends to make his movies according to this philosophy. They tend to frown on altruism.
@@darlalathan6143 Ah yes space kid who if he was discovered by the government who probably be locked up for life. I don't specialy like Man of Steel but I'm fucking tired of people giving Snyder shit because he didn't make Pa Kent into Jesus. Seriously this movie depiction of Pa is flawed man and that's fine because most human beeing are not shining exemple of morality.
@@Fenris30 Its a good point. But, I think the word "realistic" is the problem. The Superman I know grew up in a Norman Rockwell vison of the American family. It was a beautiful hopeful idealistic family that a boy could daydream about. The Costner version was more like my old man. A little bitter from a hard life that clings on to optimism but is jaded from his knowledge of the way things are. Rather than being a true believer of the way things could be. Its the slight variation in the world view that would fundamentally change how Clark see's the world.
@@BumperCarJoe But isn't that the ki d of Superman we need right now? The realist? Superman was a product of the great depression we need that version. The version did what was right no matter whose ties he had to step on to do it. We need that Right now IMO. Cavill's Supes was that kind of Guy. A fight who stood up for the little guy, and didn't back down when out matched. Yeah he wasn't smiling ear to ear but he had a good heart and he followed it for better or worse.
A interesting point of comparison would be with back in black with Peter beating Fisk within an inch of his life and saying if May dies he's coming back to finish the job
YOu make a really great point about the injustice and Snyder Superman. While Lois is his heart, Superman is well adjusted and the BEST of us. He would most likely retreat to his fortress, mourn her, and then return to the world and be a example of how to honor the ones we love and loss. You really make a amazing point. His foundation is everything. Although if you do change the source material like the Snyderverse, Superman was warned by Pa Kent that humans where not ready. So I can see him very easily turning to Darksied when the first human he chooses to love is taken from him. It was good writting by Zach, but he does tarnish, and miss the mark with our beloved character. I loved his movies, however, I am still a bigger fan of the original Donner movie. I just rewatched it, and it was beautiful.
A great analysis! Thank you! I never got the impression that Zack Snyder really understood Superman. It felt like he wanted to take someone else’s creation and appropriate it into his own version.
Just came across this video. Bit late to the part, I know. But you have a new sub. I agree with everything here. Superman is one of my favourite, if not, THE favourite superhero. And my favourite Superman movie is the Christopher Reeve movies, one and two. I watched Superman The Movie when I was around 6 and it stuck with me, to this day. As much as I enjoyed Man of Steel, I felt it was very pessimistic and missing something. One of my favourite quotes (and I’m not sure where it came from) is “You don’t make it relevant. You make it inspiring.”
Another one who doesn't understand what was happening in that post-bus scene in Man of Steel. When Clark asks Jonathan, "Should I just let them die," and Jonathan answers, "Maybe..." Jonathan is teaching Clark by example that the answers are not always clear insofar as the effect they'll have on the future. He was also demonstrating that it's okay to admit that you don't have all the answers and that it is in fact a sign of inner strength to be able to admit that both to yourself and to others. I don't even like this movie and It's clear that Snyder was the wrong guy for the job, but even with how much I dislike this movie I can read the subtext.
I never said that, I just said his parents are his moral compass. His parents taught him what's right and wrong which led Superman to become the hero he is, not what motivated him to become a superhero.
I've never understand people who want heroes "who look like me." Sure I want heroes who have the same ideals that I do, and no I don't want them to be unbelievably perfect, but if they aren't better than me, my mirror is a better story telling device than a comic. I'm so sick of this nonsense: tell me the story of incredible people forged through the fire of suffering and sacrifice who stand where all others fall. I prefer to leave if you'd leave my petty failures in the mirror.
When you said that Christopher Reeve's Superman was "cartoonishly hopeful" you lost all credibility. You say that we haven't had a definitive version of Superman on the big screen? Christopher Reeve WAS the definitive version of Superman. You just countered your own argument and confirmed that you don't even understand Superman the way you think you do. As for why Batman, and the Marvel characters are more popular than Superman is because those interpretations actually fit today's society and how people view themselves and the world. The Kingdom Come Superman is perfect in his characterization and works in that story because he's a member of the old guard who has those down home, literally old fashioned ideals that are definitely much needed and should have been instilled in the younger generation of heroes. When you modernize a character like Superman and we get what we've gotten with the current interpretation it is because of where society is today where people are today. The theme and atmosphere in the world today is much darker so the heroes people create or recreate or want to read about are written to match that mindset and ideology. They unfortunately are wrong but that's only because the powers that be, the people, institutions and organizations and super rich families that have been controlling society for too, too long now have conditioned and bred hopefulness, fair play and basic humanity out of the citizens of this country. That's why in a lot of cases we get a misinterpretation of Superman because that interpretation does not fit with today's society. It's not that people misunderstand Superman it's that he does not fit the current mode of today's society. I'm not supporting a dark and killing type of hero I'm just saying that what you think is a misinterpretation is a misinterpretation of the modern era's idea of super heroes in general. And yes we need our grandfathers and the old timers from years gone by to once again stand up and reassert authority of the younguns of the world and begin to teach us again what true humanity and heroism is.
I grew up with Superman in the 80s reading comic books. My grandmother got me all the Fletcher Cartoons on VHS. Watches the Donner films, etc. To me Superman isn’t Superman if he’s not about hope. Superman is a symbol of tomorrow, something to inspire humanity to eventually be. A side note, Spider-Man doesn’t always do the right thing. He often does selfish things especially when the burden of a heron wreaks havoc on his personal life. He learns Uncle Ben’s lesson over and over again. Usually, Superman always does the right thing. The industry often mistakenly thinks “how do we make Superman relatable” which how they fail at making a good Superman. Superman’s appeal isn’t “he’s like me” Superman’s appeal is “I wish we could be as good as him.”
I loved this video so much Im know a new subscriber. I have a question though? Are you ok with the new quote "Truth, justice, and a better tomorrow" or should it stay"...and the American way"?
@@jaredgarcia8638 true at least they are undoing the damaged caused by bendis and didio horrible decisions but man oh man I am still sad we had lose my favorite team Jonathan Samuel Kent superboy as his little 10 year old self and Damian Wayne robin as the super sons for nonsense like son of kal-el which failed badly at least in my opinion.
What makes superman a great character. He is a regular man from Smallville Kansas. Superman is the mask that clark wears to openly use his superpowers.Kal L is superman to aliens. Clark Kent is superman to the people of earth. People from earth don't know that superman is a farmer . He went to college to become a journalist. He has his favorite football and basketball team. He goes to farm expos.He loves being a journalist. And he have a great sense of humor. When a writer understand this. Then they are able to write some great superman stories. If dc would have gotten some one from the start who respected and understand who and what superman / clark kent is as a person. We could have been deep in some really good superman movies right now. Instead of getting nothing but deconstruction of his character. Also the one thing that most superman stories get right outside of man of steel. Clark kent childhood was just as normal as yours and mine.
I feel like you forgot about the part where the entire city of metropolis got nuked aswell like that feels much more justifiable it wasn’t only just lois and his son
Also, due to Joker Toxin and Scarecrow Venom, he literally murdered Lois and his son in a very brutal way. Superman was a broken man by the time he killed Joker.
The core concept of injustice, the idea of Superman taking this authoritarian approach after failing his family and his city, is a really interesting idea. It feels like a subtle enough twist on Superman's sense of responsibility to protect people that it's reasonable for it to arise out of trauma like that. The problem with injustice is that they go way too far with it. They have him go to extremes that the character just would never go to, like killing Billy for talking back. They take a promising idea and ruin it by turning Superman into someone who just craves power and control, and uses his power without restriction to satisfy a superiority complex, which was never something that was actually part of his character. The movie actually handles the whole concept way better than the games do. They still take it too far even there, but at least there's some essence of faithfulness to the character.
I found DC52 " Truth " story arc to be interesting and I didn't mind that Superman was depowered. Also that comic series came out when I was in my late thirties so we do have different views of Clark riding a motorcycle.
Know if Batman kills the joker he is better than the joker, because Batman consistently saves lives nine times out of 10 if he kills Joker at number 10 no one is gonna forget all the nine times he said people killing someone wants does not make you a killer it has to be a consistent pattern and Batman is a hero. That’s complete bullshit and besides, it’s not Batman’s job to kill joker is Gotham city’s job. The fact that they don’t have a death penalty is completely on them.
Man of steel and Batman v Superman and Zack Snyder’s Justice league made me understand Superman. I never understood him before those movies. They were great interpretations that made me understand him and I’m so happy for it
@@zemox2534 the only betrayal is how DC didn't give Superman a consistent history! I do enjoy his stories and his absolutely awesome portrayals but there is no denying how horrible DC's consistency issue is for him and pretty much all their characters. On top of that, their take on the scientific aspect of his power ups is truly unrealistic! If they would've written him with a better understanding of science then his character development would've been undoubtedly more realistic and relatable.
30:41 I would agree with Max Landis's take on Superman. If he wasn't also guilty of doing things to women Superman would never aprove of in his personal life. You can't claim to 'understand superman' and shame everyone else for not understanding him, when you're also a serial sex pest.
So, I'm listening to your Injustice part and I just want to point out that Superman doesn't go full Tyrant after Lois and Metropolis are killed. If you read the comic it's a slow descent for him. His first action after killing Joker is to force world governments to stop killing people and make them pass laws for the people. He finally had enough and stepped in. Every situation after pushes him but by bit with him having to make a series of concessions. My favorite but in the book is when Sinestro, who has made Superman believe him to be a loyal part of his new Power structure, begins to torture a Gotham cop for info on where Batman is and Superman immediately steps between them and backs him off leading to Sinestro explaining that hesy only doing what is necessary and he gets that Superman doesn't like it. He offers Superman a solution: Don't take part, just go somewhere else and ignore it while he does the dirty work. And Superman is convinced to walk away but the entire time he's walking away he's got the upset and bothered look on his face. He knows that he just made a choice that goes against what he stands for. At that point he's not a monster, he's a man willing to sacrifice even his own personal principles for what he believes is the greater good that the Regime brings to the world. The game kinda wrote them into a corner though because he had to go completely off the deep end at some point. The character doesn't bother me because hes not the true Superman. He has flaws the the true Superman doesn't. A pretty good contrast for him is Kingdom Come Superman who sees Joker murder his wife and his friends and still takes him in to be put on trial in a court of law and us against his murder. It's interesting to see a Superman that draws his line in a different place as a contrast but not as a replacement like DC was planning on with Superman in the 5G era.
Agreed. At 24:55 ish he also goes out of his way to mock women wearing "the force is female" t-shirts when talking about Star Wars. That certainly doesn't feel like something superman would do
@@dev-asya Yeah after I wrote the comment I looked into it and all Grant said was "It’s something I’ve come to terms with and pared down to it coming down to the patriarchal structures that have been oppressing us and Superman can easily be made to be representative of that. " I don't think there's anything weird about that, but considering the bitterness at SW:TFA several years later, the "force is female" comment/"joke," and the fact that he chose to cut out the part of the quote that lays the groundwork for Grant's point for being "weird" and "not getting into it right now," I thought I'd come to a pretty clear understanding of what was going on. This guy's one of THOSE comic fans.
It's not that he's as human. It's that he'd the best a human can be. Superman is everything good about humanity and personally the only thing stopping me from going full edge lord and saying humanity in general is evil
I think Injustice is fine for two reasons. One, Superman does not become a dictator immediately, but over the course of five years during which his morals are pushed further. Two, it's more of a What If? story so I'm ok if the character is slightly different. Honestly I think Wonder Woman is far more out of character in Injustice since she is often more violent than Superman but without traumatic experience.
5:50 : Fun fact: By 1937, the U.S. was in recovery from the Great Depression -- but then later that same year, it got hit with ANOTHER recession. So 1938 wasn't really the HEIGHT of the Great Depression, it was more like the height of the post-depression recession.
Wow they had to change him to reflect how ppl are today. Says a lot about society today. This is why I will always love superman. It's easily to lie cheat and steal. Takes more power to not. I could lie and get what I want. Or be honest and not get what I want. But I held my values.
Kindness, fairness, and justice will never be irrelevant
No good deed goes unpunished.
@@KryptonianEdge the right thing may not always be easy but it is always worth doing.
He truly is the man of tomorrow
Not when said characteristics are just covers used by insidious people and organizations.
Its kind of crazy how people like Snyder and others who think Superman is unrealistic or should be as ugly as we are, have already been analyzed through people like Manchester Black and Luthor. Fact of the matter is he despite his power actually strives to work for that ideal world no matter how hard.
Its trully an underrated thing about Supes' character
It’s okay to write a dark Superman story, just don’t make the character dark. Superman isn’t dark, the situations and villains he faces are dark.
Ok we will follow your little rules. So its in a nice wrapped box for ya. You dolt.
I think despite being a typical comic book zombie event Dceased kind of captures that for Superman
I mostly agree. But I enjoyed the Ultraman and injustice stories as well. I just think it can be overdone, but when done right it can be very appealing. My prime example of a Superman turned evil that's interesting was in Superman Vs the Elite. He was temporarily portrayed as a bad guy during those events, but the final twist was quite interesting and I think helped sell the idea of Superman ultimately.
@@bradleystites And part of doing some things right is doing them sparingly.
@fightingleaf whole heartedly agreed. That's why my list of approved evil superman stories doesn't include more things. I'm sure more stories have played the angle well enough but for the symbol of hope that he is I'm starting to get sick of them only playing these stories over and over.
It seems to be only evil superman or death of superman that seems to get made into mass media anymore.
The whole thing about people finding Superman boring and lacking in personality is mainly a western phenomenon. In much of Africa, were i am from, and most of the world (many manga heroes were inspired by him) he is still beloved and adored as a great hero and personality mainly because our societies don't have the weird cultural obsession with relativism and cynicism and we prefer heroic characters who stand for good, no matter how cliched it seems❤
Because hope is a thing humans look for
Yup exactly i have seen asian audience to like characters with fictitious powers Naruto and most manga or anime characters and it is not unusual for them. Hating on Superman is a western phenomenon.
Bitch made superman fanboy.
I think it’s people becoming too cynical
It's never cliched. I love that's how you guys feel! The people who say he is boring are the real boring ones because they have no original thought in their minds they just repeat what is heard. Superman is the best and always will be.
The only way superman would turn out different in another parallel universe would be the family that would happen to find him as a baby.
I think my favorite spin on that is how he was made a little more angry and prideful, but still wanted to uphold justice as in the Gods and Monsters universe. And its cause his parents were mexican farmers, kind of under the boot at the time, so I can see why even if they didn't teach him to hate or bully opressors back as Superman he'd want to
@@kennethsatria6607I would have loved to see a Jor-El sired Clark deal with that rather then a Zod sired one. Are we who we are by Nature or Nurture. Zoe's son was much more of a Realist then Jor-El's.
thats what makes that Superman as a URSS champion one shot a good one in my book: he is STILL the same good person thirsty for justice, his nurture only skews him to other way of achieving that
You should read red son
Isn't that Red Son?
I think we're finally in a time where people want to believe in a good guy again. We've had enough of the angst and dark takes on heroes. We need to see that a good guy can beat the odds by just staying true to who he is and by simply wanting to help other people just because he can. Superman is Superman to us because he doesn't give up no matter what, that what he says is always the truth, and that we can count on him to be there for us when we need him most. We need Superman now more than ever.
The common collective public, there has always been more niche groups that wanted heroes like Superman, but the stuffy suits, the filmmakers, and the common public dismissed their voices. Most of them have just eventually learned their lesson that what they wanted just wasn't good enough for them and everyone else, and now that some of them wondered why, they now have the winds blowing in the opposite direction. Overall, though, great assessment of the situation, Ferguson! It will now truly take a Superman to sweep us off our feet.
@@StoryTeller796 Thats why Im very hopeful about James Gunn's Superman Legacy film as he has proven not only to be an incredible CBM director/filmmaker in general, but he truly cares about these characters and what they mean to the world and writes them to be human, regardless of how outlandish the characters might be, look at how he's reinvented the Guards of the Galaxy who were once a C-list group of oddballs are now household names that have a phenomenal trilogy fleshing each and every one of them as tragic, complex and multifaceted characters that have made mistakes but reconcile in each other to accept each other and love for their mistakes. James Gunn is also proven to be a massive fan of Superman ever since he was a kid and has a deep connection to what Superman means to the world and how he remains to be a gentle kind soul that sees the best in everyone. Everything he said about the movie being an exploration in the power of compassion and empathy in a cynical and pessimistic world is everything Ive always wanted to see in a Superman movie, and I have faith he will give us possibly the most faithful take on Superman ever since Christopher Reeves.
I Hate Zack Snyder Too!!!
@@milkiassamuel780
As a Superman fan seeing people actually using Lex Luthor's opinions of Superman as an argument why Superman is outdated is really eye opening so much they don't even realize it
There is no odds with Superman. Having odds means the possibility of loosing, which Superman doesn’t have. Superman has been written like a plot device for decades. Just overpowering any situation, or developing some random superpower to handle the situation. That is not a good character.
I think the most ideal criticism of Superman can be summarized by a quote from the Green Goblin.
"The one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. In spite of everything you've done for them, eventually, they'll hate you. Why bother?"
Dood? That quotes all about how Norman fails to get Spidey; how Osbourne can't see beyond self interest or conceive of personal responsibility (ol' webheads catchphrase, yeah) in the slightest degree. Goblin's got Spidey stuck and he's monolouging trying to break Spidey's spirit but he's so small minded and hard hearted he doesn't know he's standing there just telling on himself that he's a full on garbage person; it's famous for that dood.
@@Noms_Chompsky Yeah that's his point... the criticism's don't work because of exactly what you just said
Spider-Man: “Because it’s right.”
Isn't this similar to what Mephiles says to Shadow in Sonic 06?
@@twilimessyeah and great moment for Shadow. Even knowing the world will turn on him and even result in his effective death, he chooses to do the right thing regardless.
I fell out of Superman for a bit. But then I saw someone talk about Superman vs The Elite and decided to watch it. This lead me to watching the DCAU again after so many years. It's been great.
Also Death of Superman is my favorite Super movie.
Superman vs the Elite is so good. Definitely a top tier Superman movie, it's honestly right next to the first Superman film with Chris Reeves in my opinion, hopefully that film could possibly be adapted into live action someday.
@@thealternativelook Reeve
@@thealternativelook
Even people who aren't Superman fans and played injustice don't even understand it was Metropolis being blown up and millions of innocent lives taken that was the catalyst for why he became a dictator
I'm glad you brought that up
@@thealternativelook
All-star Superman is a good comic also btw
You should watch all-Star. Imo there isn’t a story that will ever top that one.
Superman the Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited all have my favorite incarnation of the character. The stories got dark and outside forces were trying to tempt him to go dark but at the moment of truth, he revealed who he really was: a man who is not a murderer. He’s a man of principle and a believer of peace & justice.
Kingdom Come's Superman also loses Lois because of the Joker, but he didn't kill him - Magog does, and then he testifies in court that Magog shouldn't have killed the Joker but Magog wins the case; gets free and is even acclaimed by the crowd and media, so Superman retires from humanity thinking he is no longer needed. That is truly the Superman I love, and if some people find Superman boring, it's only because the stories they read weren't well written. Superman has a good sense of humour, he is optimistic, deeply love humans and makes a good contrast with Batman, even if they share the same moral code.
I may alos add the example of Frank Miller's DK III where Batman realises that all this time before Superman never used his full power and was constantly holding back to not harm his enemies - something similar though to the Marvel Universe's Spider-Man (who always held back to not harm his enemies as well), which makes your parallel between the two even more relevant.
Superman is abd always should be the embodiment of Truth and Justice - period.
Well said!
been a long time reader i think what makes a good superman story is knowing the core of the character, superman is supposed to represent the best in us the best in humanity, his family is also the core of his beliefs, Superman can't physically be challenged that's boring, it has to come from the mental to show that despite who he is that he is still imperfect like all of us.
Superman not physically being challenged is why his character sucks. Why can’t he face someone stronger than him, and beat them through using his other powers.
@@robertrainford6754
Darkseid: Am I a joke to you?
Doomsday: Surely you jest.
@user dude he jobbed both of them. Gtfo with that.
@@gak1146 no he didn’t. Superman literally died fighting doomsday. Everytime he fights doomsday he’s getting smacked. Gtfo with this ignorant ass comment.
@@gak1146okay so you’ve never read a comic ever
The way you were describing how Superman wouldn’t turn bad and how ridiculous that notion is, completely reminded me of the argument I, and many others made about how ridiculous it was that Disney thought Luke Skywalker would even have the slightest thought of killing his own nephew because he sensed a little Darkness in him. It was the dumbest thing ever!
Edit: Just got to the 22:40 section where you mentioned this! Nice! Amazing video!
he nearly killed his own dad, that wasn't even thinking about it, he actually was about to do it. remember that kylo's memory of the scene was not the correct turn of events, then again last jedi haters don't pay attention to the movie so i wouldn't be surprised if you didn't realise that
@@dankerbellNo we very much paid attention. Both recollections of the events were character assassination. Also there's a difference between Vader and Kylo. Ben hadn't done anything. Vader was actively attacking him and threatening his sister. Luke had absolutely no reason to attack Ben
@@dankerbell thank you for telling me that you’re retarded and didn’t pay any attention to Return of the Jedi. Vader is a literal warlord who killed countless people and was actively attacking and provoking Luke (who didn’t wanna fight his father at first anyway) Kylo had a bad dream. It’s not the same. Retarded last Jedi defenders like you should’ve realized by now that this argument literally holds no weight. You clearly didn’t pay attention to The Last Jedi OR Return of the Jedi. Sit down. Stop trying to conflate 2 scenes that don’t match in anyway. Good to know that retarded TLJ defenders still exists 8 years later. I guess your stupider really is ever lasting so I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t realize that.
They were able to make Captain America hopeful and inspirational in the MCU, but apparently Superman has to be dark and brooding now. For some reason?
Yep, its like going to see a batman movie and seeing him as this hope, justice, boy-scout, cracking jokes.
Wonder why ppl were turned off by Snyder's Superman....
These Hollywood writers/directors are just too lazy or cant imagines past the "absolute power always corrupts absolutely" trope
@Peramiiy Even with Batman, Hollywood seems to only focus on certain aspects of the character. I'd argue it's the equivalent of the way Marvel editors treat Spider-man. They have an idea of what he's supposed to be, and they can never let him stray far from that. For Batman, he's always a dark and brooding loner. The recent the Batman movie was essentially a safe bet for WB. Trying to recapture the success of the Dark Knight trilogy. Where's the fun? Where's the Batfamily? Campiness is a part of that character and his history. I want a definitive version of Batman where they find a way to balance the serious side with the campiness. Don't think we'll ever get that, unfortunately.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp The Batman ends with him saving civilians in broad daylight. Wdym "dark and brooding".
@fluffynator6222 Can he just be that from the beginning? Why do we need stories about Young Bruce or Old Bruce? I've seen it before. It's boring. Where's Batman in his prime? Haven't gotten that since 2008 with the Dark Knight. Where's Batman teaching others? Being a father figure. Where's every other aspect that makes up the character? Why be so ashamed of the campy side and light side of Batman? Screw realistic and gritty, give me fun.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp
There's an Yadam West animated movie and Harley Quin's Show.
The thing I liked most about 90's Superman is that he had NO powers what-so-ever until he was a late teenager. To me, this communicates that while his body is not human, his mind and soul very much is.
It's quite simple to me. If you don't like the original character of Superman, then don't get involved with producing entertainment about him. That goes for all of the these characters. If you don't like the characters, stay away. Yeah, I know they like the money they can make. But that makes it even worse. Don't do it just for the money. But unfortunately that won't happen very often.
When they said "You're living in a dream world",it meant they were doing it for the money.
@@theepic1944 Yep.
@@lookinforthe70s yh ive never understood this if your not a fan of a character or story why are you making stuff based on it in the first place why not make something based on a character or movie you do like bet it would turn out alot better
Why. A director can improve his reputation by not making him a plot device. I’d say changing it were Superman came to earth at the age of ten, and actually witnessing krypton near destruction would look better, and give him a real desire to save the earth.
@@robertrainford6754If you're a competent creator, you don't need to change Superman to make him more than a plot device because he already is more than that. Superman vs the Elite and the comic that inspired it peak comic books and most of that is due to the writin of Superman. They don't do anything all that new with him. They don't change or bastardize him. They just reaffirm the same character traits he's had since his inception in a world that's trying to make him change and it's perfect
Spider-man is the venn diagram center between Batman and Superman. Change my mind.
Like Superman he's a superpowerd down to earth idealist who wears a red and blue costume and who's alter ego is a normal average Joe who works at a news company.
Like Batman he's a strategic tactical fighter and inventor with a strict no killing rule who uses grappling hooks a lot and is a popular superhero based on an animal that a lot of people are afraid of.
Spider-Man is like Batman and Superman
He has powers, can fight good, no money
Speaking more on that, I've said it for years. If you like Spider-Man you should arguably like Superman because of that very thing.
If they're trying to make Superman relatable and make him cynical and dark, they're saying that the modern audience is cynical and dark.
Instead of trying to flatter the audience saying Superman is like them, instead try harder to understand the modern audience and write stories that relate the original and timeless positivity and hope from Superman in a way that is more contextual and relatable with people who are more cynical and dark.
Superman resembles hope in a world without hope, if they don't understand it then they don't deserve to make a story about him
I always thought if Superman lost Lois he would be more likely peace out than go crazy.
didnt he do that in kingdom come?
@@snoot6629yes he did
It's always been funny to me that the man WB picked to write and direct for Superman almost word for word quoted Manchester Black in what's so funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way
YOURE LIVING IN A DREAM WORLD
Good because dreams transform us and help make the world a better place.
@@zanerobbins3794 Only documentary directors can say that (but they don't) about superhero fans, not Hollywood directors of superhero movies, lol! 😂😅😆🤓🤣
Green Goblin killing Gwen Stacy is different than the _Injustice_ situation for three reasons:
1) Gwen and Peter were not married.
2) It was not by Peter's hand that Gwen died.
3) New York didn't explode.
This is not to say that I think anything like _Injustice_ should ever happen in the prime continuity, but I just want to establish the difference in scale here. You know, Hal Jordan, the best of the GLC, was possessed by Parallax after Coast City was destroyed, so...
Not by Peter's hand? Oh so it wasn't the web line that Peter shot that broke Gwen's neck was it? Even Goblin pointed that out
Batman "strict moral code" is a retcon/half written detail added to is character. Batman was drawn and written by Bob Kane and Bill Finger. Kane got most credit due to being an employee while Finger was a free agent. Kane mostly wrote Batman as a Pulp Action Hero who uses guns and kills criminals, kinda like The Shadow and The Phantom. Heck, he killed the bad guy in is very first comic. The "No guns, no killing" rule was forced onto him by the Comics Code Authority, the Bill Finger writing took over. The reason movies show Batman killing is because they are staying true to Bob Kane's Batman, it's okay to prefer Bill Finger's but still never ignore the Bob Kane vigilante Batman. I personally want to see something different from Year 1, I want to see a Batman story that tells HOW he goes from violent pulp action hero vigilante to redeemed superhero and his Rogues represent a reminder of who he once was and is trying to move on from.
Also, DCEU coulda been saved if JL revealed that Darksied came to Earth, fought the Ideal Justice League and lost, but then captured Flash, harnessed the Flash's ability to time travel and then went back to tinker with the hero's origins, like intimidating Jonathan Kent to instill doubt into Clark as a kid, so that by the time he arrives on Earth, the League is too broken to beat him, but The Flash managed to counter him by warning Bruce in the past.
In my humble opinion, Injustice shoulda had Batman be more inclined to go bad instead of Superman. Seeing Superman, another ideal hero who reminded him of Harvey Dent, fall down the dark path by killing Joker result in Batman going rogue and looking for another Joker to fight but can't. His increased aggression pushes Superman to form the Regime to put an end to Batman's extremism. That way, when the Prime Justice League come to the Injustice reality, they are LED to believe Superman went bad when he killed Joker by Batman so they would help him, but then they learn Batman was manipulating them to help him kill his Justice League and by the time they discover the truth, he starts putting Tower of Babel into affect, making the Justice League underdogs against Batman. By the end, Injustice Batman would be beaten and told he's no better than Joe Chill if he kills the Justice League. Injustice Batman would then turn himself in and the Regime, while seeming looking like a dictatorship is actually trying to stop people who followed the renegade Batman.
Remember the 90's when everything was so edgy? You know how Superman was edge? He had a mullet.
Peter Parker is no longer a high school student that lacks confidence in himself.
Yes but that is how he started. So people mad for Tom version for being that is dumb
When most people watch movies like The Boys, Injustice or Invincible, they think like: "this is reality, if I had super strength I would...."
It can be clearly seen that most young people exposed too early to social networks consider characters like Homelander to be realistic, role models like Superman(Injustice) can show that today's movies have partly influenced social morality makes people despise doing the right thing, a sad truth
In the last decade we had some many anti-heroes, morally gray characters, dark-and-edgy or brooding Noir types, that finally seeing a guy who is just...good, with no caveats, a simple man who wants to help everyone...it's like remembering that you're allowed to be happy.
invincible is pro-superheroes, the boys is the edgy "this is what people would be like with superpowers", omni-man is not a person from earth and knows that, and redeems himself anyway, i hate how invincible always gets lumped in with this lot by people who don't pay attention or don't read just because omni-man resembles superman
@@dankerbellYea invincible is cool because their is more to it than just evil Superman
Batman said it best; "Superman has the power of a god, but how lucky are we that it never occurred to him"
He really does know. But he's been taught that he's supposed to bury that power.
@@braylon4125 he was taught to fear it
@@badongo328 being able to understand that you have power and hold back isn't the same as fearing it
@@cameronharding2878true but he actually does
Back before the new 52, Darkseid made a similar comment...
something like: "The only possible problem I see on Earth is the Kryptonian. If he _ever_ puts aside his stupid* morality and brings his full power to bear, I will be in trouble."
* "Stupid" by Darkseid's assessment.
The last time we got a truly good Superman story on screen was the all star adaption with Dwayne McMuduffie shortly before he passed. DC hasn’t been the same without him. RIP
Because Superman is the beacon of hope that stand high. No matter what happens, who comes, who wants to destroy moral and safety he will be there to stop it.
No but, if or and.
He is the one that stands when everyone fails and falls.
He is the archetype, the embodyment of true justice, kindness, heart and hope.
There is no fighting him, there is no lilling him, he is above , he is the notion of peace when everything fails
There is Superman... and there is everything and everyone else after.
The count is for the number two, the number one is not a discussion.
What I don't get is
Why do people constantly underestimate his power?
Ego.
Because he usually holds back, so they assume he is weaker than he actually is.
"He's always holding back." You fan boys are what drives the hate for this character. Screw you fanboys more and more people dislike this character, it's growing daily. He's an op Mary Sue.cope assholes.
In Superior Spider-Man Doc Ock possessed Spider-Man's body, and was shocked, even horrified, by how much Peter has to hold back in order to avoid killing people with his strength.
And Spider-Man possesses only a fraction of Superman's strength.
As Superman is quoted saying, he lives in a world of cardboard, and is constantly holding back to avoid destroying everything he touches.
Because it's massively inconsistent. Superman has shifted between city block levels of power all the way to universal levels of power. In some versions he gets brought down by a taser and in others he no sells nuclear explosions.
In injustice writers theorised that if the joker kill lois lane superman would fall into a villain, in Kingdom Come it made him even more of a hero
They didnt theorize the writers of IJ admitted it was just a story and superman wouldnt actually be that way
I remember I used to be an MCU fangirl and I hadn't watched a singular movie from DC because people told me they were bad or cringy....
I hadn't even watched The Dark Knight series HOWEVER after Endgame, the quality that the MCU was putting out was bleh so I decided:
What the heck let's give DC a shot
*I was shook*
So first off I watch Man of Steel all the way to Zach Snyder's Justice League (now I'm mad because he wrote the character wrong *but* at the time I was shook at how dark DC gets and how powerful Superman is.
I then watched the New 52 DCAU movies in chronological order and those weren't bad at all one of my top favorites is The Death of Superman (great movie )
After that I watched other movies before the DCAU and the Tomorrowverse
I liked Superman: Man of Tomorrow, I enjoyed everything
I even watched Smallville and really liked it, especially the Season 10 Finale
'
But by far the best one I have seen is Superman vs The Elite....
Not only is the climatic fight scene awesome but the entire message of the movie and who Superman is *pure perfection*
----
So that how I became an MCU fangirl to a sworn DC girl to the day I die.
Oh and can't forget about my boi Barry (love his comics and animated movies )...The Flash also wasn't bad at least one the beginning seasons
That said GO WATCH SUPERMAN VS THE ELITE if you haven't already YOU WILL THANK ME LATER
*bows of stage*
If you want to see some Superman feats I did write this a while back (it has many feats many haven't heard of ):
qr.ae/prPAPN
"So first off I watch Man of Steel all the way to Zach Snyder's Justice League (now I'm mad because he wrote the character wrong but at the time I was shook at how dark DC gets and how powerful Superman is."
He wrote the entirety of DC Comics wrong in _Justice League._ Darkseid retreating from a mere flesh wound? Where were the Omega Beams in that fight? And why were Motherboxes treated as McGuffins, they're really not that uncommon in the world of the New Gods. And why were Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter both missing as founding members of the Justice League? I know that Manhunter dipped in at the end to offer his support, but Earth didn't even have a Green Lantern at the time of the film. And what's up with Aquaman hating Atlantis?
Edit: I'm forgiving him about Cyborg being a founding member of the Justice League because the studio probably mandated that.
@@jagnestormskull3178 yea I get somewhat frustrated now but I didn't know any better then, that's what I'm saying
@@sarathomas8499That's an awesome list you made there. I didn't know about a lot of them. Thanks for putting it together. It was a fun read.
@@rafaelschaffner Thank you!
Barry? Oh come on where's the love for my boy Wally?
I think a lot of more recent comics have still captured the character. Rebirth, Up In The Sky, American Alien, even Bendis's run had a good Superman(everything else around him wasn't great). Then you have Superman and Lois also righting the ship. I do think we can get people to love Superman again. It just takes the right person at the helm
I just hate Dan Didio and Brian Michael Bendis for ruining the rebirth and trying to kill Clark and Lois's Marriage again because Dan Didio has that same philosophy that Joe Quesada has that Married Superheroes don't make for good drama and are "not relatable". Unforgivable. By the way Dan Didio blocked me on Instagram.
@@bradleyrenfroe2776 Why does he think married superheroes don't make for good drama? Has he ever heard of America's high divorce rate?? "Not relatable?!" People marry and have kids in real life! I'm sure lots of spouses could relate to that! 🤣
@@bradleyrenfroe2776I hate Bendis for what he did to Jon. Forcing him to age up was the worst decision ever. And it destroyed one of the best friendships in comics with Jon and Damien.
I'd like to think if Metropolis was nuked and Lois Lane died that Superman could go to the Justice League for the love and support from long-time companions rather than the comforts of authoritarianism
To be perfectly fair, WW influenced a vulnerable Clark to go full authoritarian and Batman, his best friend, was busy investigating what happened rather than being there for Clark. While Batman wasn't the most...expressive... character, he also knows when a person needs someone to just be there for them. Injustice pretty much butchered the Big 3's characters, though Supes' is most noticeable.
It’s way harder to inspire someone than it is to make them feel like shit.
I really admire those who aim to inspire
Saying that recent comics have been too focused on pushing ideologies, seems pretty silly to me. Especially talking about Superman, whose greatest stories have always been about his ideology.
It’s fine to disagree with certain ideologies contained in a piece of media, but just express that. Don’t pretend that you’re upset about pushing ideology when you’re talking about how great Superman is.
Kingdom Come > Injustice
Superman Red Son > Injustice
What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? > Injustice
Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? > Injustice
Dark Superman stories can be done without ruining the character
I had heard that Zach Snyder wanted to make _Batman v. Superman_ a one-for-one adaptation of _Dark Knight Returns,_ but WB wouldn't let him do that because Superman is a minor antagonist in _Dark Knight Returns_ (as I understand it). WB wanted to make it seem like both characters were on equal moral footing, and in the process, forced Snyder to make both characters mentally and morally deficient.
I've never been Snyder's biggest defender (I use the term "Snyder Cut" to refer to most things that are "darker and edgier" than they have any right to be with characters acting completely out of character, like the live-action _Titans_ show), but I will step-in in this case.
long story short:
people who say that superman is lame or doesn't fit current times (especially snyder) are idiots who saw superman and decided 'wow this guy sucks, he can fly"
Superman is best when the author emphasizes the Man part of him over the Super part.
Action Comics with Aaron Kuder was some of the best Superman to release after the new 52. It was a throw back to the light hearted silver age one off adventures and Kuder’s art was beautiful.
Truth , justice, and the American way; case closed.
Fuck that better tomorrow crap.
He's not American he's an alien created by 2 zionist jews. Cope assholes.
As for Man of Steel the problem is that Snyder is still simping for Ayn Rand and her stupid philosophy I miss superman being a father to young John it was the best one of his stories it was modern but still had the core of the character while now they aged up Johnathan taking away most of his childhood and taking away Clark from earth
I'll never understand how anyone can look at Ayn Rand's bullshit and think it deep
I criticized Snyder's DC movies and said I was not for the Snyder Cut and this guy came after me with six paragraphs explaining why I am in the wrong for not wanting the Snyder Cut because it is justice for Zack. His fan base is almost cultish. They will tolerate no descent from anyone. They literally were policing the internet looking for anyone they considered a heretic. I also refused to see Joker because that is not the Joker. We need the iconic versions of the characters. They will come after you with the argument "If your against the sjws then your supposed to support the Joker movie". I am so sick of the SJWs and The Anti SJWs alike
@Erik Kemeey Wow. What a compelling counter-argument./s
@@bradleyrenfroe2776 you're 1000% correct
@@VaderTheWhite Well gift a start all attempts to criticise her are invariably shallow.
the best way to write superman is to write him as Clark at all times.
You should have included the full Grant Morrison quote. His take wasn’t strange or unrelated. He was simply saying that patriarchal structures played a role in warping the perception of Superman and what’s acceptable for his character, which is 100% true.
I think Superman based on my knowledge would at most kill Joker, then, knowing what he's done, resign from superheroics entirely, because with the death of his morals, came the death of superman
he actually did kill Mr. Myxzptlk in a alt universe comic, then he stripped his powers with gold kryptonite and retired
While the outcome would be the same, the circumstances aren't. Myxzptlk literally threatened to end everyone and everything. Leaving him no real choice in the matter. Joker's already apprehended. It's just him lashing out.
I really liked this essay, kudos to you sir!
I hope your channel will explode with subscriptions.
I actually have an idea about using a open-world game to express both Superman and Klark's lifestyle by enteractive mechanics by players.
I'm planning to do a UE5 demo of such idea and it's not only about Superman yet also about a Batman game's concept with my fellows in two years.
And I will kickstarter such project.
Captain America is also the greatest embodiment of what it means to be a great person, to do the right thing, and to use hope and optimism in the correct way.
Which is why the Superman/Captain America amalgam "Super Soldier" in the Amalgam universe works so well.
Their power levels might be vastly different, but at heart there's a lot of common ground between Clark Kent and Stever Rogers.
We ignore that batman would 100 percent would become a world spanning dictator if he loosened his moral code. The guy is insane.
joking aside good job on the video.
As much as I do enjoy the Injustice universe (and I think the comic does a decent job of justifying his gradual march toward where he ends up in the game), switching the roles of Batman and Superman would have been a far more compelling story than it already was.
@@Tyler_W I feel like evil Superman is an overdone trope in fiction. Heck man deconstructionist comics about superheroes are overdone to death too and I don't particularly care for them.
@@wonderoushistoryofclassicf9193 it’s really too easy of a villain idea to use
@@Tyler_Wpeople overestimate Batman’s powers. He is just peak human. Humans overall still have flaws and it’s literally impossible to think of every single outcome possible or have knowledge of things he doesn’t know much about. Superman taking over the world is convincing because he has the strength to do so but Batman would need to give himself superpowers or do it in a more smart way like becoming a political leader. Giving Batman powers ruins the character; the point is that Batman despite just being human is still brave enough to try fight odds he can’t win. That’s why no Batman story has him pre plan everything before it happens.
@@Tyler_WIt's just how Batman instigates alot of what happens in the Injustice timeline. He pushes Clark to become more and more extreme to counter his schemes and plans yet brushes it aside like his hands are totally clean.
Or, Why the world needs Superman.
You know, what I look in a lot of my favorite characters, especially those like The Puppet from FNAF, King Boo from Luigi's Mansion, and several Disney protagonists like Luz Noceda or Quasimodo, those positive traits that I see that they have (with the exception of King Boo, honestly, I'll have to pass those traits down to Luigi but King Boo just seems so cool!) have similarities with Superman. So in the most roundabout way possible, Superman is kind of my favorite character and my main inspiration for my own character.
Zack Snyder didn't have a real reason, he just did it cause he felt like it was the best choice he could make. Here’s my advice and my way of looking at redefining characters or franchises, you redefine a comic book character the same way you redefine The SCP Foundation, The Backrooms, Trevor Henderson monsters, Sonic.exe, Slenderman, Smile Dog, Eyeless Jack, Laughing Jack, or any other creepypasta. If you do something that just feels right, that just feels like a direction you can pull the character in, then you must do a lot of that thing right. If you have 100% of a good idea to execute, use 100% of that good idea and execute it as flawlessly as you can.
I believe "The Batman"'s version of Batman didn't kill, mostly because the people behind that movie didn't put any time, energy, and interest into doing it.
... My reaction to these modern Superman stories is to create an in-universe story that takes place in the Marvel and DC universe. This is to create a story about a boy who was neglected by the school system. He later grew up to become a superhero who nowadays attempts to hold people responsible for their actions through the art of storytelling. This young man is none other than The StoryTeller, and he runs a smalltime independent "company" (it's much more of like a public club than a company) that prints an entire comic book run telling multiple stories both a resource creation for his schemes to go after villains and as a front for those schemes and his secret identity.
Have you watched Superman: Man of tomorrow?
I have yes it's a very good animated movie, I really liked it, it really captures the spirit of who Superman is and tells a really cool and modern take on his origin.
38:55 The sole exception is when vampires get involved but even then vampires are undead creatures of the night so if anything he’s more so saving them by making it to where their souls and or corpses can rest peacefully instead of being in this undead state where they have to suffer.
Great video! Just one question. What did you think of Smallvilles take on Superman/Clark. It's my favorite live action take on the character because it brings the character's personality that has been missing with other adaptations. Also the show and character wasn't too dark or too campy. We also get great side characters and a great Lex Luthor adaptation too in my opinion.
Smallville is awesome and it had Christopher in it.
The fact everyone forgets Smallville Pa Kent was against Clark running around being a hero for awhile before he was cool with it.
I'd like to see the Bat-Bot from "His Silicon Soul" resurrected in some distant future to be "The Batman"
Found this channel by accident and I agree 💯 Supes is my favorite... figured I was the only one that thought this way regarding these characters particularly Supes... Superman and Lois has become my favorite show in place of Smallville because they don't attempt to redefine the character just put a modern spin on it...thx for this I really appreciated everything you said Supes is the most human of us all even the late great Stan Lee said "...the reason my Marvel characters are imperfectly relatable is because they're all trying to imitate him (Supes) & give us something to believe in and hope for..."👈💯💪
Thanks! And yeah Superman is just the best!
Amazing breakdown, listening to this whilst writing a book and creating mythos, this helped. Thanks
I feel like I have to explain this to everyone who hates The Last Jedi:
Luke does not DECIDE to kill Ben, he CONTEMPLATES the idea of killing him, but hesitates. Ben misread the situation and thought he was going to kill him, when he really decided not to.
I agree, but usually I phrase it along the lines of:
It's Luke frickin' Skywalker. If he truly wanted to kill Ben, then Ben would be dead. The end.
@@alextrio3995 So, you agree with me or not?
@@benmalsky9834 Oh yeah, I agree.
I'm just saying it's weird that everyone seems to think that Luke truly wanted to actually kill Ben. It's Luke. He's the most powerful Jedi. If he wanted to kill Ben, then Ben wouldn't be walking around, he'd be dead. Since we see Ben walking around, we know that Luke didn't want to kill him.
I mean Luke is standing over him, lightsaber draw and seemingly ready to strike. You can see how that could be taken as "wanting to kill him."
My problem is more with the fact that Luke got there in the first place. He already faced this trial in the form of Darth Vader. The right hand man of the Emperor. The guy who killed Luke's mentor. Despite this, and despite the fact that Luke never knew him as Anakin, Luke walked into the lion's den with the goal of redeeming his father. Even when provoked by Vader and the Emperor, he stops himself from striking down Vader. He chooses to trust in the whatever good is left in Vader and to defy the Emperor at the risk of his own life.
So how in the world would this character even CONSIDER killing his nephew because HE MIGHT turn to the dark side? Then after that does he try to right the wrong? No. He runs. He hides. He abandons his loved ones.
Or at least, that was why I had a problem with how they portrayed Luke in The Last Jedi.
@@ToastburnerB I just accept things based on what the story requires
DC should enact a moratorium on dark/deconstructed/evil superman movies//books/comics for 10 years. That theme has been overused and abused.
You missed the mark on interpretting jonathan kent saying "maybe" to letting kids die.
A.) This one is worried about his son
B.) He was considering what it meant to the world being turned upside down and turning chaotic if they learned about clarks existence.
This also exhoed by Perry White when he tells lois, she was smart for burying her Alien story by saying "can you imgine what the world would become, if this got out."
Johnathan kent disagrees with himself as he says "maybe" that, if seven kids died but the world stayed in tact, eould that be fair. Yes/no.
00:52 Ever since i was a little kid i've always loved the idea of a character coming from another planet with these amazing abilities and almost becomes more human than we are even though he's not native to this planet or this world.
The fact that you fail to recognize how insulting and disrespectful that is to your own species is outstanding. What you just described and displayed is a colonizers mindset!
And in the Superman comics they go further than trying to make Kal-El “almost” more human than humans. Many prominent characters like Batman and Lois Lane flat out state that this non human is more human than the rest of us!
Which is just wild when you think k about it. Bruce Wayne is a psycho who hates his humanity so much that he calls himself, Batman and dresses up as a bat. Lois Lane is a race traitor shacking up with some alien and cross breeding with him.
So neither one of them are the best representations of humanity.
It is a remarkable dichotomy.
In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all.
Then... he shoots fire from the skies and it is difficult not to think of him as a god.
And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him.
- Batman
I believe the best version of Superman is the version pitched by super Hollywood producer/ screenwiter Max Landis, the son of legendary 80's film maker John Landis . In which Superman is more human. He is a guy who is getting to know him self as his develop powers develop. In the same way there are no stories of Christ between the time he is 12 years old til his adult life, Superman from my experience story is the same. I'm not calling him Christ like. I'm just saying that nuance is like the Christ story, but in Landis's " American Alien" he explores Clark Kent at 17 years old getting into trouble and uses puberty as an intro point to his powers. Landis's Martha and John Kent are younger which allows them to grow up with Clark and make the mistakes that teach him right from wrong... I love this I'm a big fan!!!
Superman has always been a Moses allegory
Zack Snyder and those who view Superman as a Christ Archetype don't understand Superman nor actually listened to Joel and Jerry who said multiple times he's basically a superhero Moses
The difference is Clark was adopted and raised by a working class farm family, Moses was adopted by a wealthy Egyptian family
Imo, the best part of Injustice 1, the game, was at the very end when the "real" Superman reinforces the promise Batman made to him if he should ever go full evil. The fact that he even has the foresight to acknowledge this as a possibility and makes plans to stop, or even have himself killed, shows how much he does care about the world around him.
This is a great video
Good job 👍
I subscribed
Weird that a Max Landis would suggest a "Batman does the R-Word Situation". Seems to be right up his alley.
Besides mentioning this guy, great video man. Loving a lot of your points here.
I have to say it again. You make such a great point that Pa Kent in Snyder verse was the MAJOR FLAW. He was FAR TOO SYNICAL. Superman, already has to deal with a sinical world so his needed to be a source of his optimism. I forgot how much that was a part of the story that I connected to and loved as a child. And from a broken home myself, was the reason why superman was so important to me. He was the north star of my conscious. And his days on the farm filled my imagination in my own yard.
Pa wasn't being cynical he was being Realistic. The man didn't want a 12 year old boy risking himself saving people, This ain't Harry Potter or Percy Jackson. You guys are so focused on getting to Superman you forget about Clark.
@@Fenris30 Actually, Pa Kent in Man of Steel was an overprotective dad of an invulnerable space god kid and an Objectivist Author Avatar, because Zack Snyder is one and tends to make his movies according to this philosophy. They tend to frown on altruism.
@@darlalathan6143 Ah yes space kid who if he was discovered by the government who probably be locked up for life. I don't specialy like Man of Steel but I'm fucking tired of people giving Snyder shit because he didn't make
Pa Kent into Jesus. Seriously this movie depiction of Pa is flawed man and that's fine because most human beeing are not shining exemple of morality.
@@Fenris30 Its a good point. But, I think the word "realistic" is the problem. The Superman I know grew up in a Norman Rockwell vison of the American family. It was a beautiful hopeful idealistic family that a boy could daydream about. The Costner version was more like my old man. A little bitter from a hard life that clings on to optimism but is jaded from his knowledge of the way things are. Rather than being a true believer of the way things could be. Its the slight variation in the world view that would fundamentally change how Clark see's the world.
@@BumperCarJoe But isn't that the ki d of Superman we need right now? The realist? Superman was a product of the great depression we need that version. The version did what was right no matter whose ties he had to step on to do it. We need that Right now IMO. Cavill's Supes was that kind of Guy. A fight who stood up for the little guy, and didn't back down when out matched. Yeah he wasn't smiling ear to ear but he had a good heart and he followed it for better or worse.
A interesting point of comparison would be with back in black with Peter beating Fisk within an inch of his life and saying if May dies he's coming back to finish the job
excellent video, you put the work in!
YOu make a really great point about the injustice and Snyder Superman. While Lois is his heart, Superman is well adjusted and the BEST of us. He would most likely retreat to his fortress, mourn her, and then return to the world and be a example of how to honor the ones we love and loss. You really make a amazing point. His foundation is everything. Although if you do change the source material like the Snyderverse, Superman was warned by Pa Kent that humans where not ready. So I can see him very easily turning to Darksied when the first human he chooses to love is taken from him. It was good writting by Zach, but he does tarnish, and miss the mark with our beloved character. I loved his movies, however, I am still a bigger fan of the original Donner movie. I just rewatched it, and it was beautiful.
A great analysis! Thank you! I never got the impression that Zack Snyder really understood Superman. It felt like he wanted to take someone else’s creation and appropriate it into his own version.
Wrong
Just came across this video. Bit late to the part, I know. But you have a new sub.
I agree with everything here. Superman is one of my favourite, if not, THE favourite superhero.
And my favourite Superman movie is the Christopher Reeve movies, one and two. I watched Superman The Movie when I was around 6 and it stuck with me, to this day.
As much as I enjoyed Man of Steel, I felt it was very pessimistic and missing something.
One of my favourite quotes (and I’m not sure where it came from) is “You don’t make it relevant. You make it inspiring.”
Well written essay. I like your conclusion: whatever happened to the man of tomorrow....?
Another one who doesn't understand what was happening in that post-bus scene in Man of Steel.
When Clark asks Jonathan, "Should I just let them die," and Jonathan answers, "Maybe..." Jonathan is teaching Clark by example that the answers are not always clear insofar as the effect they'll have on the future. He was also demonstrating that it's okay to admit that you don't have all the answers and that it is in fact a sign of inner strength to be able to admit that both to yourself and to others.
I don't even like this movie and It's clear that Snyder was the wrong guy for the job, but even with how much I dislike this movie I can read the subtext.
The death of Superman’s adoptive parents isn’t what motivated him to become a superhero.
I never said that, I just said his parents are his moral compass. His parents taught him what's right and wrong which led Superman to become the hero he is, not what motivated him to become a superhero.
I've never understand people who want heroes "who look like me." Sure I want heroes who have the same ideals that I do, and no I don't want them to be unbelievably perfect, but if they aren't better than me, my mirror is a better story telling device than a comic. I'm so sick of this nonsense: tell me the story of incredible people forged through the fire of suffering and sacrifice who stand where all others fall. I prefer to leave if you'd leave my petty failures in the mirror.
When you said that Christopher Reeve's Superman was "cartoonishly hopeful" you lost all credibility. You say that we haven't had a definitive version of Superman on the big screen? Christopher Reeve WAS the definitive version of Superman. You just countered your own argument and confirmed that you don't even understand Superman the way you think you do.
As for why Batman, and the Marvel characters are more popular than Superman is because those interpretations actually fit today's society and how people view themselves and the world. The Kingdom Come Superman is perfect in his characterization and works in that story because he's a member of the old guard who has those down home, literally old fashioned ideals that are definitely much needed and should have been instilled in the younger generation of heroes.
When you modernize a character like Superman and we get what we've gotten with the current interpretation it is because of where society is today where people are today. The theme and atmosphere in the world today is much darker so the heroes people create or recreate or want to read about are written to match that mindset and ideology. They unfortunately are wrong but that's only because the powers that be, the people, institutions and organizations and super rich families that have been controlling society for too, too long now have conditioned and bred hopefulness, fair play and basic humanity out of the citizens of this country. That's why in a lot of cases we get a misinterpretation of Superman because that interpretation does not fit with today's society.
It's not that people misunderstand Superman it's that he does not fit the current mode of today's society. I'm not supporting a dark and killing type of hero I'm just saying that what you think is a misinterpretation is a misinterpretation of the modern era's idea of super heroes in general. And yes we need our grandfathers and the old timers from years gone by to once again stand up and reassert authority of the younguns of the world and begin to teach us again what true humanity and heroism is.
Exactly
In all fairness I like the armor look of New 52 with the belt design instead of the loin cloth look. It looks so clean.
i love superman! i love the name superman , i love superman suit and his flight.
I grew up with Superman in the 80s reading comic books. My grandmother got me all the Fletcher Cartoons on VHS. Watches the Donner films, etc.
To me Superman isn’t Superman if he’s not about hope. Superman is a symbol of tomorrow, something to inspire humanity to eventually be.
A side note, Spider-Man doesn’t always do the right thing. He often does selfish things especially when the burden of a heron wreaks havoc on his personal life. He learns Uncle Ben’s lesson over and over again. Usually, Superman always does the right thing.
The industry often mistakenly thinks “how do we make Superman relatable” which how they fail at making a good Superman. Superman’s appeal isn’t “he’s like me” Superman’s appeal is “I wish we could be as good as him.”
Although TASM was took place in the real world, atleast they made Spiderman and Uncle Ben being Spiderman and Uncle Ben.
I loved this video so much Im know a new subscriber. I have a question though? Are you ok with the new quote "Truth, justice, and a better tomorrow" or should it stay"...and the American way"?
My favorite Superman incarnation is Superman rebirth which I think is fantastic.
DiDio screwed up when he brought in Bendis.
@@jaredgarcia8638 agreed and I am still pissed off about that
@@TevyaSmolka At least Williamson and Johnson are giving Superman TLC.
@@jaredgarcia8638 true at least they are undoing the damaged caused by bendis and didio horrible decisions but man oh man I am still sad we had lose my favorite team Jonathan Samuel Kent superboy as his little 10 year old self and Damian Wayne robin as the super sons for nonsense like son of kal-el which failed badly at least in my opinion.
@@TevyaSmolka True.
What makes superman a great character. He is a regular man from Smallville Kansas. Superman is the mask that clark wears to openly use his superpowers.Kal L is superman to aliens. Clark Kent is superman to the people of earth. People from earth don't know that superman is a farmer . He went to college to become a journalist. He has his favorite football and basketball team. He goes to farm expos.He loves being a journalist. And he have a great sense of humor. When a writer understand this. Then they are able to write some great superman stories. If dc would have gotten some one from the start who respected and understand who and what superman / clark kent is as a person. We could have been deep in some really good superman movies right now. Instead of getting nothing but deconstruction of his character. Also the one thing that most superman stories get right outside of man of steel. Clark kent childhood was just as normal as yours and mine.
I feel like you forgot about the part where the entire city of metropolis got nuked aswell like that feels much more justifiable it wasn’t only just lois and his son
Also, due to Joker Toxin and Scarecrow Venom, he literally murdered Lois and his son in a very brutal way. Superman was a broken man by the time he killed Joker.
The core concept of injustice, the idea of Superman taking this authoritarian approach after failing his family and his city, is a really interesting idea. It feels like a subtle enough twist on Superman's sense of responsibility to protect people that it's reasonable for it to arise out of trauma like that. The problem with injustice is that they go way too far with it. They have him go to extremes that the character just would never go to, like killing Billy for talking back. They take a promising idea and ruin it by turning Superman into someone who just craves power and control, and uses his power without restriction to satisfy a superiority complex, which was never something that was actually part of his character. The movie actually handles the whole concept way better than the games do. They still take it too far even there, but at least there's some essence of faithfulness to the character.
Red Son does it a million times better.
Excellent analysis. Best Superman analysis I have heard
21:12 That depends severely on the situation
I found DC52 " Truth " story arc to be interesting and I didn't mind that Superman was depowered. Also that comic series came out when I was in my late thirties so we do have different views of Clark riding a motorcycle.
You said you are a Superman hardcore fan, why is Plot Armor man aka Batman your favorite ? I don't get it.
THIS NEEDS MORE ATTENTION
Know if Batman kills the joker he is better than the joker, because Batman consistently saves lives nine times out of 10 if he kills Joker at number 10 no one is gonna forget all the nine times he said people killing someone wants does not make you a killer it has to be a consistent pattern and Batman is a hero. That’s complete bullshit and besides, it’s not Batman’s job to kill joker is Gotham city’s job. The fact that they don’t have a death penalty is completely on them.
Man of steel and Batman v Superman and Zack Snyder’s Justice league made me understand Superman. I never understood him before those movies. They were great interpretations that made me understand him and I’m so happy for it
Me too. These movies are masterpieces. I love them.
That's not superman in those movies the real superman is not in DC movies
I wont gatekeep ... starts gatekeeping and makes no attemp to understand other perspective properly.
edgelord superman is ass. y'all hate comics and what they stand for
How is he gatekeeping. He's stating objective facts
Anything after the death of Superman story destroyed Superman as a character. I miss that version of him!
I think that is an a little overboard. Not every Superman story after Death is a. Betrayal. The video even brubgs up a few comics that respect Clark
@@zemox2534 the only betrayal is how DC didn't give Superman a consistent history! I do enjoy his stories and his absolutely awesome portrayals but there is no denying how horrible DC's consistency issue is for him and pretty much all their characters.
On top of that, their take on the scientific aspect of his power ups is truly unrealistic! If they would've written him with a better understanding of science then his character development would've been undoubtedly more realistic and relatable.
30:41
I would agree with Max Landis's take on Superman. If he wasn't also guilty of doing things to women Superman would never aprove of in his personal life.
You can't claim to 'understand superman' and shame everyone else for not understanding him, when you're also a serial sex pest.
So, I'm listening to your Injustice part and I just want to point out that Superman doesn't go full Tyrant after Lois and Metropolis are killed. If you read the comic it's a slow descent for him. His first action after killing Joker is to force world governments to stop killing people and make them pass laws for the people. He finally had enough and stepped in. Every situation after pushes him but by bit with him having to make a series of concessions. My favorite but in the book is when Sinestro, who has made Superman believe him to be a loyal part of his new Power structure, begins to torture a Gotham cop for info on where Batman is and Superman immediately steps between them and backs him off leading to Sinestro explaining that hesy only doing what is necessary and he gets that Superman doesn't like it. He offers Superman a solution: Don't take part, just go somewhere else and ignore it while he does the dirty work. And Superman is convinced to walk away but the entire time he's walking away he's got the upset and bothered look on his face. He knows that he just made a choice that goes against what he stands for. At that point he's not a monster, he's a man willing to sacrifice even his own personal principles for what he believes is the greater good that the Regime brings to the world. The game kinda wrote them into a corner though because he had to go completely off the deep end at some point. The character doesn't bother me because hes not the true Superman. He has flaws the the true Superman doesn't. A pretty good contrast for him is Kingdom Come Superman who sees Joker murder his wife and his friends and still takes him in to be put on trial in a court of law and us against his murder. It's interesting to see a Superman that draws his line in a different place as a contrast but not as a replacement like DC was planning on with Superman in the 5G era.
Nothing wrong with gatekeeping, sometimes it is sadly needed.
This video was interesting but something about brushing off the first part of Morrison's quote as weird is a red flag to me
Agreed. At 24:55 ish he also goes out of his way to mock women wearing "the force is female" t-shirts when talking about Star Wars. That certainly doesn't feel like something superman would do
@@dev-asya Yeah after I wrote the comment I looked into it and all Grant said was "It’s something I’ve come to terms with and pared down to it coming down to the patriarchal structures that have been oppressing us and Superman can easily be made to be representative of that. "
I don't think there's anything weird about that, but considering the bitterness at SW:TFA several years later, the "force is female" comment/"joke," and the fact that he chose to cut out the part of the quote that lays the groundwork for Grant's point for being "weird" and "not getting into it right now," I thought I'd come to a pretty clear understanding of what was going on. This guy's one of THOSE comic fans.
@@JustCallMeKart + the point he made at the beginning, stating that modern media pushes "agendas & ideologies". Not coming back to this channel lol
He isn't more human than we are he is AS human as we are because some humans are good people. That said I love Superman too :3
It's not that he's as human. It's that he'd the best a human can be. Superman is everything good about humanity and personally the only thing stopping me from going full edge lord and saying humanity in general is evil
I think Injustice is fine for two reasons. One, Superman does not become a dictator immediately, but over the course of five years during which his morals are pushed further. Two, it's more of a What If? story so I'm ok if the character is slightly different. Honestly I think Wonder Woman is far more out of character in Injustice since she is often more violent than Superman but without traumatic experience.
injustice is too focused on evil superman being evil instead of struggle of superman who crossed the line
Evil superman is way overused.
5:50 : Fun fact: By 1937, the U.S. was in recovery from the Great Depression -- but then later that same year, it got hit with ANOTHER recession. So 1938 wasn't really the HEIGHT of the Great Depression, it was more like the height of the post-depression recession.
Wow they had to change him to reflect how ppl are today. Says a lot about society today. This is why I will always love superman. It's easily to lie cheat and steal.
Takes more power to not.
I could lie and get what I want. Or be honest and not get what I want. But I held my values.