Which should I buy, the M1A or M1 Garand? 308 or 30-06?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2024
- I get this question often so I decided to try and provide some info on it. No right answer - so try both if you can and decide which you like best. Just a few things to think about, it's a close decision either way.
EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS: I own both of these rifles and have fired them extensively for over 10 years. I can use my experience to answer the question of which rifle is the better choice for you. I will even share a short story about when I had to kill a grizzly bear with my M1 Garand. I apologize in advance because this will not be a short post. I will convey everything I have learned about these two rifles to help you make an informed decision and possibly save some money.
1) ACCURACY BY CARTRIDGE: First we need to examine these two cartridges. It seems unlikely that the 308 Winchester would be more accurate than the 30-06 Springfield. The 30-06 is the bigger cartridge with more powder capacity. However, the shorter case of the 308 provides a more uniform burn rate than the long and slender 30-06. This anomaly gives the 308 more consistent velocity, better accuracy and makes it less sensitive to temperature changes. The success of the WSM series of cartridges is because of this very same phenomenon. The 308 cartridge has more accuracy potential than the 30-06 and is generally less "fussy" when hand loading.
2) ACCURACY BY DESIGN: The M1 Garand is less accurate because of several design flaws. The Garand uses a "dog leg" operating rod which will bend or break when high power 30-06 loads are used. I tried using the specialized vented gas plug which allows the use of heavier commercial ammunition. With 150-180 grain loads it worked fine, but when I tried 220 grain loads the operating rod bent. I never bothered experimenting with the vented gas plug again because the accuracy was erratic and unpredictable with any bullet weight over 150 grains. The M1A uses a straight operating rod that is highly resistant to bending. More importantly, it accurately fires bullets heavier than 150 grains which are ballistically superior.
The front hand guard of the Garand is another weak point that is detrimental to accuracy. It must be perfectly tight in order to achieve maximum consistency to the rifle's harmonics. I use rubber O-Rings which I cut and squish into the hand guard contact points to keep everything tight. The M1A bypasses this problem because it has no front hand guard. Therefore the M1A is more accurate than the Garand because of its improved design and the 308 cartridge it fires.
3) FUNCTION: The most obvious difference in function is the Garand's en-block clip versus the magazine of the M1A. In terms of overall practicality, the magazine is superior for obvious reasons. It holds 5, 10 or 20 rounds and is easier to "top up" than the en-block clip. However, for many of us the Garand's clip has a special place in our hearts because it is very unique. Many people don't realize that the en-block clip can be loaded into the rifle with any number of cartridges between 1-8. Its a skill that takes some practice, but is not difficult to master. Another little known fact is that an empty clip can be loaded into the action. When the action is opened the clip ejects providing that infamous "ping" without the need to chamber a round.
In many ways the M1A is basically a product improved Garand. Another significant improvement is to the gas system. The M1A gas system is designed to safely vent excessive pressure. This extra safety feature, combined with the stronger operating rod, can be a blessing for overly ambitious hand loaders.
4) HUNTING: Both of these rifles are an excellent choice for big game hunting. I live in Canada and have killed elk, moose, caribou and deer with the M1A and Garand. The general rule for .30 caliber bullets is a minimum of 2,600fps to produce hydrostatic shock in living tissue. Shots to the vital area of an animal within 300 yards, using either of these rifles, will cause enough hydrostatic shock for a quick and humane kill. In my experience the M1 Garand loaded with good quality 150 grain spire points at 2800- 2900 fps will kill anything in North America.
Despite what many people think, the Garand and the M1A are basically equal in velocity when loading 150 grain bullets. However, the M1A has the ability to fire heavier bullets with greater accuracy. Therefore the M1A has the advantage of bullet versatility to deal with a multitude of hunting situations. Most hunters these days prefer an optic over iron sights when taking big game. The M1A has several mounts for attaching scopes whereas the Garand does not. (Excluding the M1D Sniper Rifle) The M1A is also slightly lighter which is noticeable after carrying it all day on a long hunt.
5) CONCLUSION: Both of these rifles are a great choice and will not disappoint. If history, uniqueness and nostalgia are your main concerns the Garand is the better choice for you. The Garand has a rich and distinguished past which speaks volumes about its design, stopping power and combat effectiveness. You will probably never get sick of hearing the iconic ping of the M1 Garand.
The M1A is one of the most practical "no nonsense" rifles ever made. It is more than adequate for target shooting, self defense and big game hunting in North America. If mounting optics, bullet selection and overall versatility are your main concerns the M1A is the better choice for you.
M1 GARAND VS GRIZZLY BEAR: I used to go target shooting in a nice isolated spot down an old forest service road. This particular area had steep cut banks which made for a perfect shooting backstop. As an added bonus there were a bunch of different berries that grew at the nearby lake. So I could target shoot for the afternoon and then drive to the lake and pick berries for my wife until dark. After an afternoon of trying out some potential hunting hand loads in the M1 Garand, I decided I would hike to the lake instead of drive. As I loaded my supplies I was debating whether or not to take the rifle with me. The M1 Garand is heavy and I was carrying a big backpack plus buckets for the berries. In the end, I decided that this was bear country and my wife would kill me if she found out I was mauled by a bear and didn't even bring my rifle!
As I approached the lake I heard an unusual commotion off in the distance. At first I didn't pay much attention to it because it sounded so far away. I thought I was probably just hearing things because the wind makes strange noises in heavily forested areas. Once I reached the small parking area, at the bay of the lake, I noticed a vehicle parked there. I suddenly had a distinct sixth sense type of feeling that something was wrong. I started wondering if those noises were people and shortly after I could clearly hear a woman screaming "go away, get away, help us!" The distress in her voice was unmistakable, she was in trouble. I dropped everything accept the rifle and ran down this trail which wrapped around the lake. I felt like I was going to have a heart attack because it was taking so long to find her. I tried to yell at the screaming woman to let her know I was coming, but I was too out of breath.
Finally, the trail dipped into a small gully and I could see what was going on. An elderly woman and her husband were half way up a tree with a huge male grizzly bear below them. The bear was violently shaking the tree trying to make them fall. I managed to yell something unintelligible, hoping to scare the bear away. At the sound of my voice the woman, her husband and the grizzly bear all stopped what they were doing and stared directly at me. I stood perfectly still while making alternating eye contact with all three of them. Nobody moved or reacted and time momentarily passed in slow motion. My body froze with fear as the dangerous reality of the situation sunk in. It was a completely surreal moment, like something out of a movie. When the woman realized I had a rifle she told me to "shoot it!" I didn't shoot at first because the bear made a movement which I thought might be a retreat. I was wrong.
The bear started moving towards me displaying very pissed off body language. In the process of moving towards me the bear changed the angle between myself and the elderly couple stuck up the tree. I could now fire at the bear without them in the line of sight. They screamed at me again "shoot or he will charge you, he already attacked us!" They were right, the bear charged and I only had a moment to react. I fired all 8 shots in about 2 seconds. The bear dropped in its tracks because the first shot was through the brain. The other seven were completely unnecessary, but I continued to fire out of fear and reaction. The shooting occurred at a distance of about 10 yards. I have no recollection of when, but at some point during the attack I pissed my pants.
The elderly couple looked like they were in total shock and had small cuts and bruises from hastily climbing the tree. I helped them down and administered first aid while they explained what happened. They were picking berries when the bear surprised them. They both carried bear spray and used it, but that just made the bear angry and triggered the attack. They managed to climb the tree while the bear was sneezing from the spray. I had to inform a conservation officer about what happened because that is the law in Canada. He deemed the killing as justified/self defense and said it was the biggest grizzly bear he had ever seen. The M1 Garand has undoubtedly saved a lot of lives, including the three of us. The elderly couple and I exchanged contact information and became close friends until they passed away several years ago.
(The load I killed the grizzly bear with was a Hornady 150 grain round nose soft point at 2,850 fps out of the Garand)
P.S. If you found this post informative please give it a thumbs up and leave a comment. This will stop the information from getting buried in the comments section so that others may read it.
I skipped all of the rifle information because I just wanted to read about the Grizzly Bear attack. That was quite an ordeal, glad everyone survived. Don't feel embarrassed about pissing your pants, I am sure most people would in that situation. Lol When you said your wife would kill you for getting mauled by a bear! That's women. Thanks for sharing that amazing story!
Holy crap. Excellent post. Scary situation; glad you handled yourself so well, glad you took your rifle with you, and glad you saved the lives of those people even if they were naive enough to bring only pepper spray.
I always read that pepper spray is more effective than a firearm, and I always doubt it and imagine that it comes from some anti-gun lib. Thanks for the confirmation, even if it cost you a pair of pants!
cyril Domingo Your welcome, glad you enjoyed!
In my experience the M1 Garand can achieve maximum accuracy from two variables. The first is within the rifle itself. The receiver locks down like a vice when assembled. Replacing much of the wood in this area with bedding compound will really help tighten the action up. The front hand guard should also be as tight as possible using whatever means necessary. I use rubber O-rings that I cut and squish into the contact points. This takes minimal time and money and will increase accuracy, even with cheap surplus ammo.
Regarding the vented gas plug, pressure curve and ammunition. An unmodified M1 Garand firing 150 grain BTHP bullets at 2700-2800fps with medium burning powders will give excellent accuracy. Despite whatever pressure curve the Garand's design prefers. Especially in combination with the tightened receiver and hand guard techniques previously mentioned. Every rifle is different and prefers a specific bullet seating depth. Experimentation with bullet seating depth is the key to accuracy here. In theory the floating firing pin could potentially cause a slam fire, but I have never had one in 10+ years with the M1 Garand. A slam fire would most likely occur when bullets are seated out too far, in an attempt to touch the rifling. Best accuracy is usually obtained when the bullet doesn't quite touch the rifling, thus minimizing the risk of slam fire. Obviously, common sense and caution is the best protection when working with any firearm.
The vented gas plug does allow the use of heavier bullets, but the advantages over the 150 grain BTHP load are minimal. These small advantages come at an extra price of time, effort and money because the heavier loads must be fine tuned. The specialized vented gas plug also requires some tinkering. For a competition rifle the ends justify the means. However for the rest of us, the accurizing techniques and previously mentioned 150 grain load will be suffice. At the end of the day this allows us to spend more time behind the rifle and less time behind the loading bench.
Jason Marquez Correct me if I'm wrong but in Canada, by law, the maximum number of bullets in a non-restricted rifle is 5 bullets and you claimed to shoot have shot all 8 at the bear ? If I'm right then that rifle is illegal, unless there is some kind of exception for the M1 Garand that I'm not aware of ?
I arranged my financial life to own what I want. Cars are so expensive. I drive a little puddle jumper. I buy used furniture, used clothing, bare necessity 2 bedroom; 2 bath home. I don't buy hardly anything else. Guns, knives, guitars: I own the finest. I give up all else to have the finest of what I "really" enjoy.
living the simple life is the best way to live.
Haha..I thought I was the only one who thought like this. Most of the stuff I own is used, my Jeep is nearly 20 years old and so damn reliable. But, when it comes to my fishing equipment, tools and guns, I do have some nice stuff that my buddies admit makes them a little jealous.
Frank Lloyd Wright once said "Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities."
Got to love a man who has his priorities in order! Minus the knives, I understand your desire to collect. Guitars alone can drive a man into financial ruin, if he isn't careful. Oh, and hot rods/muscle cars, too. ; )
Dr. Mark ,You sound like my coworker and myself great choice just know we're to cut your corners.
Dr. Mark I thought I only thought that way....I have a gun account ....50 bucks a week goes in to it....so when a gun show pops up...I have walking money .....I would say 308 ...for long range....
There's only one answer: BOTH.
I have both! My M1A Scout is awesome especially with my 3X eye relief scope. My M1 Garand is a true WWII rifle not a reproduction. I learned to shoot on my Pap’s M1. My heart will always have a special place for the world’s greatest fighting implement. That being said both are jewels in my collection so to choose one over the other is difficult. I would choose my Scout for pumping out rounds daily because it’s more forgiving, but everyone wants that hot lady to greet them at the door after a hard day’s work and that lady to me is the Garand. It’s just a beauty!
What really gets to me is why NATO doesn't continue using the 30-06 round. It was battle proven over the years to being a very effective round. I know that the round produces a lot of recoil, but our military should be able to handle it. They could handle it in WW2, hell even during the Spanish American war. And I know that the round uses up a lot of resources, but so does the .50 caliber. So there's very little excuses as to why this round shouldn't be serviced in the military.
After the invention of the assault rifle, which came to fruition during and immediately after the Second World War, armies of the major nations of the world gradually began to shift away from disciplined, aimed fire of the rifleman to the massed firepower of troops armed with light, fast-firing assault rifles and carbines. The Germans and Russians adopted them first on the eastern front, but as soon as the rest of the world caught on, they started adopting them too. The 1950s-1970s were sort of the high-water mark of Cold War-era battle rifles like the FAL, G3, AR10 and M-14. The U.S. switched over to the 5.56x45 with the M16/AR15 during Vietnam and once NATO adopted the caliber, the NATO nations did as well. I am aware of only one nation still using the FAL as its standard, first-line infantry long arm - Brazil - but perhaps other readers will know some additional examples. There are still several nations using H&K G3s, including Iran and Mexico. Since modern .308 ammunition - at least up to 180-grains or so - provides performance comparable to 30-06, it is highly-unlikely that the old '06 will be coming back. The younger generations have been thoroughly indoctrinated into the assault rifle mentality - and since they have used these weapon in the armed forces, it is what many of them are used to and want in civilian life. The 30-06 was a great military round in its day, but it is obsolete compared to the .308, since the shorter-cased 7.62x51 feeds better in automatic weapons and is cheaper, as well as lighter. The '06 has a decided edge in the bullet weights it can handle in comparison to the .308, but there is really no need for a sniper weapon, for example, in 30-06, since the Army has as its intermediate rifle weapons chambered in 300 Win-Mag. I get it that you like the 30-06. I do, too - I consider it perhaps the finest general purpose center-fire rifle cartridge ever developed - but that ship has sailed and it isn't coming back.
There was a logical reason. By having a shorter cartridge, the action can also be made shorter on the weapon. In machineguns, it means higher rate of fire. The 7.62x51 was (by design) made to replicate the exact performance of the longer 30-06, "in a semi-auto rifle." Look up (Cartridges of the World), an excellent resource.
Free men should own both
I cut my teeth on the Garand, and loved it. I was never particularly fond of the M-14, although I probably was more proficient with it since, as Battalion Range Officer, my AIs and I had access to large quantities of ammunition that we needed to get rid of at close of each day.
I went to RVN with the M-16, and never experience the horror stories you've no doubt heard. Since then I've owned, and fired, MNs (Russian and Finnish), '03s, '03A1s, and '03A3s as well as anything else shootable I could get my hands on; but looking back over the nearly 60 years since I first fired the Garand, it's still my favorite combat rifle.
I'll bet there are folks who served in Iraq and Afghanistan who would have wished they had something that could reach out and touch the enemy like the old M-1.
@Brian Ross Good luck carrying that while maneuvering with your squad!
I have an M1 and will pick up my M1A next week, so I will have both.
Me 2! Can't have 1 without its complimentary mate!!
You have two very beautiful rifles there my friend 👍🏻
+Deff Seff Thank you Sir. You can pick up some just like them too....
Advantage to the Garand is if your willing to put in an adjustable gas plug , you can shoot anything from 200 gr hunting ammo to 150gr copper bullets 3000+fps . Its a $49.00 fix to the ammo issue with the Garand.
Personally I think one of the most important things that need to be taken into account is the philosophy of use for the rifle. If its going to be a collector and shot at the range and just simply enjoyed for what it is then the m1 garand takes the advantage but if it's going to be used in multiple roles the most practical would be the m1a just my two cents.
Thanks - I just wanted to mention some things to think about. M1A is underated by lots of people. Glad you like yours.
Both rifles are “BATTLE PROVEN”, your personal choice, I own a M1A-A1, shoots great. Went thru basic training with the M-14, great rifle, would have preferred this weapon over the M-16 in Nam.
I own 2 Garands, they are not "toys" or "wall hangers" I have one made during WWll it has been fired thousands of rounds and still has its original barrel. It will shoot 3" groups if I hit a good day (5- shot). The rifle that was called "the greatest battle instrument ever devised" and greatly assisted in winning WWll deserves respect.
I think a standard M1A without "accessories" is about $1400-1500, you can get a Garand for much less than that from the CMP, I recently saw a decent specimen for $1000 at a local shop. That being said, I carried a M14 in Vietnam and have great respect for that rifle. I do believe the 7.62 Nato (.308) is inherently more accurate than the Cal. 30 U.S. (30-06). If finances ever allow I will acquire a M1A, it would be nice to be able to mount optics to help these aging eyes.
Just looking at it from a ammunition stand point the .308 wins, cheaper and much greater availability, although PPU and some of the other mfgs are starting to offer Garand specific ammo.
hart64ghs my Garands love PPU ammo. No I’m not looking for match grade stuff, just general plinking.
But it shoots very well out of my HRa
Quite a few years ago I bought a Mosin Nagsnt since I wanted a 30 cal. I paid extra for a supposedly nicer barrel, $150. It shoots within 1 Moa. Last time I fired it , to adjust my new el cheapo scope, the bullet holes touched. That was only at 100 yards, but I stopped adjusting. And I concluded the rifle was more accurate than I could shoot (and no it was never used as a sniper rifle). The point is that the moving parts in a gas or spring actuated semi automatic rifle will not get you to high accuracy, as rasily as a bolt action. Now sniper rifles become a different story.
I have both and love both. The best rifles I have ever had.
Some food for thought here. You can get 5-round enbloc clips for the Garand for hunting. As mentioned in the comments already you can get an adjustable gas plug to be able to fire any modern 30-06 load without bending the Op rod. Any M1A you buy is going to be a unit either manufactured solely for or converted for civilian use. The Garands you get it the same way our grandfathers went to war with it. The M1A is anywhere from 50% more to double the cost of a Garand. You can get a decent Garand for $700 but you can't touch an M1A for less than double that.
But I can make things really simple here. Thanks to the current com-lib administration there are no more Garands, Carbines, etc. that are going to be imported back from Korea as of Aug 2013. Even though those weapons were US manufactured. This will probably effectively kill the CMP :(
My advice is that if you're considering buying both,, get both. But pick up a Garand first because nice examples are going to dry up before nice examples of M1A's. Especially since M1A's are still being manufactured. I already own one Garand and plan to buy another here in a few weeks. M1A is also on the list but it's not as urgent of a purchase consideration.
Let's hope the replacement for the current occupant of the oval office will change that and allow the fine rifles to be allowed back in.
Daniel Alpert Agreed
I was concerned with the current administration messing up the CMP. It would take an act of congress to kill the charter according to people in the know. The import debacle you are talking about only affected importers and had nothing to do with the CMP.
I own both. Having read many comments, one point that hasn't been mentioned is balance. The M1 has excellent balance as the bottom of the magazine is smooth to the touch and flush with the wood and at the center of gravity. Very comfortable to carry. The M1A has the protruding magazine which doesn't allow a hand hold at the center of gravity, so the hold is more straining. This can be overcome through the use of a flush 5-round magazine, which isn't as soft a hand hold as the M1 but it does solve the balance problem in a hunting setup. As a hunting implement, neither is ideal because the safety makes a loud click when disengaging. I've tried to muffle it to no avail. Nothing will startle deer quicker than a snapping branch and the noise that the safety makes is similar.
Going to a LGS today in search of an M1 Garand. I love the history of this weapon. I have the M1A and I don't shoot it much anymore. If I score a Garand I'll probably sell the M1A, but knowing me, I'll get distracted chasing another gun and forget all about selling the M1A.
Keep 'em both!
You forgot to mention customizability. I don't know about the M1 Garrand, but the M1A/M14 series of rifles come with a wide variety of stocks, wood, synthetic and maybe still fiberglass (though this last is heavy, thicker and needs to be textured for a good grip), as well as aftermarket configurations for everything from tactical to DMR; and you can get different barrel lengths and barrel setups for marksmanship, standard use etc. There are different sight arrangements, bipod adapters, optical sight mounts, recoil spring guide rods, modifications and accessories.
I know I'm only talking about the M1A, but that's because I know this due to the fact that I own one.
Both rifles are excellent, I am very satisfied with mine.
I have to come back to the original question; as this has turned into a "toad fight" about 30-06 vs 308, instead of the rifle discussion. I carried the M-14 in Vietnam and consider it the finest combat rifle of all time. Accurate and extremely reliable. While I was in the Corps, most of the USMC competition rifle team (most were snipers); shot a special custom M1 Garand. It is deserving of it's legendary reputation, but has it's warts as a main line combat rifle. IMO either are fine rifles.
Things have changed a bit. In the service rifle competition, many went to the M14 type firearms. Now when you go to Perry, you see a sea of black because by and large competitors switched up from the NM M14 type firearms to NM AR rifles (as of summer 2014). They don't require as much maintenance to maintain accuracy and are less expensive. Also, 5.56 is much cheaper to shoot and thus you can practice more for less. The rifle does appear more accurate than its predecessor at the distances shot at Perry. It is just for your information and am not correcting you. I have been watching for years as things have slowly changed.
GordonTurnerpark Thanks for the info. I'm an old fart and maybe not up to speed on service rifle competition. That said, if I had to go into combat tomorrow, I'd still carry the M-14.
The M16/AR15 is inherently more-accurate than the M14/M1A because the former locks into the barrel when going into battery, whereas the latter's bolt locks into recesses in the receiver. A properly-tuned M14 or M1A is capable of sub-moa performance, but of course, so is a properly-tuned AR15. All other things being equal, the AR15 wins for accurate shooting by virtue of lesser recoil.
I spend so much time in Idaho backcountry, there are major advantages with having a Garand over an AR. I’m 22 and 6’8... yeah I’ll admit the Garand is a heavy pig, even for me. It’s comforting though even if it isn’t comfortable on 25 mile plus excursions. I don’t believe it will ever let me down
Would like to get an M1A eventually, but I’m never going to retire my 1956 H&R
I have a M1 CMP special. Shooting some semi quality Greek ammo, the M1 will hit a steel target at 450 yards religiously on open sights. Range #2, Cheyene shooting complex Fort Carson. Just lazed the distance yesterday.
that's where i shoot! i love hitting that pronghorn with my garand. it's SO rewarding. and not that i'm a great shot or anything, but sitting next to a guy trying to sight in his 18x scope while i'm pinging away on that deer with iron sights makes me happy inside.
You can witness a lot of.....envy from the others if you are out there with a Garand. I have never went and not been swamped with people wanting to see and ask "what is that sound?".
Ptown Rat for sure. it seems like every time i bring it i get to hear the story of how the bad guys used to wait for the ping sound to shoot at us, then we learned to just throw empty clips to trick them. every time. and the one RSO always asks me if i said a prayer thanking god for it in the morning.
That Greek stuff is corrosive I believe.
I own a Garand. It is awesome. I can hit the same holes in the target from 50 yards. It's drawback is that it is WAY more accurate than the iron sights allow for. It is top-load and a scope option looks ridiculous.
The M1A allows a scope to be installed and the military version (M-14) was used as a sniper rifle.
My opinion:
Collector-M1 Garand
Shooter-M1A
Although obviously not ideal as a precision rifle platform for use by a DM or sniper, the Garand M-1C/D versions provided yeoman service in the role during WWII and in Korea. Marine Platoon Sergeant John Boitnott (1922-2008)used an M-1 C/D to record nine kills in nine shots at distances between 670-1250 yards. Not bad at all, considering the M-1 scope was a 2.5x power Lyman Alaskan designated by the military as either the M82 or M84, depending on the reticle design. There's a guy on You Tube - used to be, anyway - out in California, who shoots his Garand at 1,000 yards using iron sights. The guy rings steel at that distance, no problem. He does use a spotter and/or camera system to spot his fall-of-shot, however. I think he used loads in the 175-178-grain range. Most M1As handle loads in the same weight range without any problems at all.
The M-1 Garand is not naturally a scoped rifle, but that doesn't mean that they don't work in that role at all. Marine Sergeant John Boitnott, a sniper during the Korean War, used an M-1 D model to make kills of enemy troops at distances up to 1200 yards - and that was using only a 2.5x power scope, offset to the left of the receiver. M-1 C/D models saw limited service as late as Vietnam, although by that time they were being supplanted by Winchester M70s and Remington 700s in the Marine Corps, as well as accurized M-14s in the U.S. Army.
The M1A is inherently more reliable than the Garand due to fewer moving parts in the action. The op rod is stouter. However it too can be bent by a hot load. Both rifles benefit from adjustable gas valves and both require close attention to fitment and careful adjustment of the valve position. I have mine marked for three bullet weights. Both rifles were designed to meet the primary purpose of suppressive fire. Typically that means irregularly regular aimed fire at one round every one to five seconds on identified targets. No spray and pray. Therein lies the advantage of the en-bloc clip. To reload a magazine fed rifle in combat one must remove the empty magazine, or top off with stripper clips (which can problematic past 10 rounds), place the empty mag in a dump pouch (dropping and likely losing empty mags is a recipe for failure) then extract and load the fresh magazine, then retract and release the op rod. Even well trained riflemen are hard pressed to perform that process in under 5 seconds. This creates a gap of up to 10 seconds whilst a sight picture is obtained. With the en-bloc clip, the empty clip is ejected after the eighth round is fired. A trained rifleman can reload from the pouch in 1.5 seconds. He simply drives the clip into the magazine well with a thumb and slaps the op rod handle in a forward motion. No need to retain empty clips as 25 (200 rounds reload capacity) empty clips, nested in one another will take up less space and weight than two 20 round magazines. None the less, ejected clips almost always fall within reach. Have watched WW2 and Korea vets put 40-48 rounds of aimed fire into a 8 inch target at 100 meters in a minute. I believe that can be matched by the M1A however there is the issue of that long pause. The ping is not an issue due to being a rather minor sound when heavy fire is occurring. Load bearing. The 20 round magazine concentrates a significant weight into a small space. LBE tends to focus the bulk of magazines on the anterior chest and/or abdominal zones. For the Garand I use a surplus 40mm grenade vest that has 14 pouches for 116 rounds. I wear an old GI web belt with 10 pouches around the waist, 80 rds. An extra bandoleer with 6 clips, 48 rounds, goes over a shoulder. Total battle load: 244 rounds, evenly distributed over the anterior and flanks of the torso and around the waist. Heavy but much easier to tolerate than magazine LBE. I agree the .308 is inherently more accurate. Since both rifles are meant for suppressive fire, the extra range and terminal energy supplied by the roughly 100 fps edge of the 30-06, and the extra 100 to 150 fps rendered by the extra 3" of the standard Garand barrel can make a difference. Then there are bullets. .308 is largely limited to Mil-spec 147 gr, and hunting loads. The 30-06 can be obtained with armor piercing and armor piercing incendiary bullets.
I noticed you're a former FMF corpsman. I served in Vietnam as a corpsman with L-3/7. Semper Fi.
"Dingin' Doc" Tracy
***** I am not in favor of "gadgets" such as the adjustable gas valve on an M1. They work just fine the way they are made. Just shoot appropriate ammo.
+Gutpile Charlie or just use an adjustable gas back and shoot whatever 30-06 you'd like.
Re: "Both rifles benefit from adjustable gas valves and both require close attention to fitment and careful adjustment of the valve position" Not sure what you are getting at here. The M-1 Garand - in stock form - does not have any adjustments to its gas system whatsoever. Whatever gas pressure the port sees, is what drives the op-rod to the rear. There's no gas cutoff (like an M-14/M1A) or adjustable gas valve (as on a FAL, for example), which is why Garands tend to be a bit finicky regarding the types of ammunition they run best with. Are you speaking of an after-market gas plug like a Schuster, for your M-1?
@@GeorgiaBoy1961 Try looking at "garandgear.com" and their "ported gas plug". It is not adjustable, but designed to provide a 30% lower peak pressure than stock. The graph they show is impressive. Have not purchased one yet but seems better than "trial and error" on adjusting the Schuster type.
The 30-06 is a little more versatile, as it can be reloaded from about 110 grn up to about 220 grn bullet weight. Whereas the 308 is best from 110 to 200 grn weight. If I were going after Grizzley, I'd choose the 30-06 220 grn.
For auto fire one must remember that the 30-06 is a longer round and takes more time to cycle than the shorter 308. I believe that is probably the main reason for the switch by the military, that is, the length of the round itself. I've trained with both the M1, and the M14 as a Marine. The 30 cal Machine Gun (which I've fired in combat) though great, has a rather slow rate of fire because of the length of the round. Personally I prefer the M14/7.62 NATO (308).
-Gunny T sends
id pick the m1a, both rifles are great but m1a has the improvements such as detachable 20rd mag and lots of acesories, also the 308 is more versatil and cheaper to practice with.. if you can afford both you wont be disapointed.
I am new to M1 and your presentation was very informative to me. At age 63 one important factor for me is being able to see well at 200 yards. The M1A gives me the important choice of using optics without any modification. The other important factor is the use of mag which I like. What i don't understand is that why M1A costs more when M1 Grand is the collectable one. Thank you for taking time and helping us.
As far as cost of an M1A, short answer is that they are expensive because that's what the market will bear - and in fairness to the manufacturers, they are somewhat complex to machine and use some expensive materials. When I worked in the retail FA industry, I sold a lot of M1As and the customers seemed pleased with them. However, bear in mind that M1As (M-14s) were not designed, per se, as scoped rifles. Many people who scope them need a cheek pad or riser to bring their eye into the proper alignment (eye box) behind the scope. They are not what you would call light, either, especially with a mount and an optic aboard, but that can be mitigated somewhat by use of a composite stock. Not as aesthetically-pleasing as wood, but stronger, lighter and more-resistant to the elements. The original M-14 had a 22-inch barrel with flash-hider, but many modern M1A enthusiasts opt for a shorter barrel in the 16-20" range, which reduces all-up weight and makes the rifle handier, albeit with some cost in MV and possibly accuracy as well. James River Armory makes a nice one with a 20-inch barrel, which is a good compromise between length and weight. Some people prefer shorter barrels than that; personal taste really. I'd get a Bassett Machine scope mount; they really work and are true zero-hold, meaning you can remove them from the rifle (optic attached) and then reinstall them without losing your scope's zero. A variable scope in the 1-4 or 1-6x range would probably be adequate for use for short to medium range - out to 400-500 yards. Past that, you'll probably want something more powerful, maybe a 3.5-10x40 Leupold or something like that. Again, lots of choices - it boils down to what you prefer and what suits your purposes. James River Armory, LRB and Fulton Armory all use forged receivers, which are preferable to cast receivers, which are used by Springfield Armory - but forged cost more. I'll let the engineers and metallurgists argue about that one, because some will claim there is no difference in quality or strength between forged and cast metals.
Both of those rifles are gorgeous!
I give the edge in usage to the M1A, but the Garand is a classic and I agree with collectability of the Garand. The M1A is more accurate though, particularly the recent offerings with medium weight barrels and updated sights... not to mention the National Match grade M1A.
When choosing a weapon to buy
1. Define the mission the weapon will have to fulfill.
2. Identify weapons that are capable of fulfilling the mission
3. Compare and decide.
As Jason Marquez stated, "When the action is opened the clip ejects providing that infamous "ping"... In a conflict situation, it can be life-or-death important to know whether or not you have a round in the chamber. With a magazine, you're always counting, and it's especially frustrating when you are "sure" you have at least one round to go, and you risk a lot of time and self control for the precise moment... and all you get is "click". With "ping" you know. On the other hand in some situations, the enemy also hears it and knows. BUT, that has been used to our advantage, especially when accompanied by some expletives. The enemy thinks you're a sitting duck and gets sloppy, not knowing you have another fully loaded Garand right next to you. Anyway... "ping" is not necessarily "infamous".
+neuberry Not sure what model of M1A you're shooting, but my Springfield Armory M1A locks the bolt back after the last round, so there's no "click" or guessing if there's a round in the chamber. And I'd venture it's quicker to change my 20 round magazine than to load a clip into a Garand. I've never used either in combat, but the M-4 I used is similar to the M1A in that the bolt locks open after the last round and it uses a detachable magazine. I'd love to hear about your actual experience with the Garand in combat.
I cast doubt on the ping thing, especially in today’s world. Odds are most criminals today don’t know about the garand, and even if they do... odds are if I stumble into a shootout at my home or the gas station neither of us are going to be wearing ear-pro, so neither of us will hear the ping.
“You just shot 8 rounds of 30-06, everyone is deaf” Clint Smith
Also I’ve been in stressful situations, tunnel vision is real, and it includes other senses such as hearing... you want to tell your buddy something, you better scream it or he won’t hear you
my very first high power rifle was an M-1 Garand and I love that rifle. Gen. Patton called the finest infantry weapon ever made.
Have both, love both. No preference. Each is a great rifle.
There is a difference between. 30-06 and the .30 M2 type ammo used in the M1. Using hunting commercial. 30-06 in the M1 can damage your op rod. You can buy a surplus M1 in .308/7.62mm. Just watch the power put forth with commercial ammo. Military surplus ammo in. 30 caliber is harder to find versus 7.62. I have been issued and then bought both rifles. For shooting, I prefer the M1 in either caliber. Thanks for the video.
I own both rifles my Garand was made June of 1942, the M14/ M1A in the late 70's. Both are great rifles , the M1 Garand being a vintage poster girl of the 1940's beautiful and sleek, while the M14/ M1A more of a girl next door type. Both are accurate and dependable and are built like tanks. To me the only edge the M14/ M1A has is the box 20-30 round magazine other than that they are functionally the same.
I want both rifles... As soon as I have the money, I'll buy de M1 Garand, and later, the M14... Beautiful rifles... I know there are many rifles out there, and I don't have any experience with them, but I heard beautiful things about those two .. And if the M14 (I think it was built in 1961) is still being used by US military, then there's something good in it.
For me hands down victory for the M1 Garand because it's been there and done that historically and for recreational purposes as well !!!!
I myself have an M1A, the Standard model and it’s an excellent shooter and VERY accurate. Personally I’ve never experienced a firearm of any make or model that had better iron sights. The BEST ever produced IMO. That being said, I opted to ‘fit’ a Sadlak “Airborne” STEEL scope mount on mine to top it off with an older Redfield 3-9X40 scope I had. As close to a replica of a Vietnam-era sniper setup as I could get, especially already having the scope. NOTHING about it is cheap either; from acquiring or buying the model of choice to feeding it, it can be expensive. THIS rifle in particular thrives on Federal’s AE 150’s and especially Federal AE 168 BTHP’s. Although I’ve had it since 2010, this year (Dec 2019) was the first year I’ve hunted with it. A great experience and a successful season with a NICE 8pt. One major ‘negative’ is weight. They are heavy rifles...no getting around it. Love the rifle and it’ll certainly be ‘passed down’ in our family. Although NOT having an M1 (Garand) YET, I can’t speak on the specifics in comparison between the two. I myself can’t imagine EITHER being a “second choice” to the other. They’re 2 DIFFERENT calibers offering close but slightly different ballistic choices in .30 caliber rifles. I think it comes down to personal preference with BOTH involving our military history in their use as ‘Battle rifles’. The one MAIN difference is only one is still in use today. Neither were specifically designed or spec’d to have optics or scopes attached, more of an after-thought with a few aftermarket options available for the M1A. One thing I do know, NEITHER of these rifles will disappoint and the ‘shooting/firing’ experience is unlike any other...
I have both and I love the M1 Garand. I shot the M14 when I was in the Marines in Viet Nam. Needless to see I have both M1 and M1A
I would say the M1 first, simply for supply logistics.
Average Gatsby cheaper, and out of production. Not to mention I hear the Philippine garands aren’t too shabby
Having owned both a 30-06 and .308, a 30-06 hits harder further. My WW2, korean vet grand father (RIP) said the only reason the U.S. went from 30-06 to .308 and eventually the pea-shooter .223 is weight issue. Also with more women going into the military they needed a more female friendly round(.223) The military wanted troops to carry more rounds even though they where actually carrying less firepower. Sure the bullet diameters are the same but the powder behind them is very different.7.62x51 vs 7.62x63 . You do the math. Either round is a one hitter quiter, but I'd take the 06 because it's been proven for over a hundred years.
Proof of your point - go look up Hickok45's You Tube video on shooting the BAR down in Texas. He knows someone who has a class-III NFA legal BAR down there who let him get some range time, and he positively destroys a cinder block building with it. "Turning cover into concealment" for sure...
The .308 has smaller case but same basic performance in a smaller package. This allowed the military 1. Store more ammo in same storage space, and 2. 30-06 case length is a problem with high rate fire MGs. The .308 was designed to address these limitations with the 30-06. Remember there is always a reason why things are as they are (why younger folks want to complain or change something without studying the history of the subject is beyond me). One one advantage to the 30-06 is that it can go up to 220 grain bullet vs. 190 with the .308. This is because of the shorter case of the .308.
I choose the 30-06 for hunting over the .308 in these weapons as the 30-06 (Garand) can shoot a heavier bullet with a considerably higher velocity... Weight I would choose the 308 M-14 as the Scout model is lighter. Accuracy is a Draw. M1A has a much better capacity and reloading speed. Overall I would choose the M1A over the Garand. Both are awesome Rifles.
the M14 is just Mr. Garand perfecting the M1 if i am not mistaken, most problems of the M1(like the dog leg op rod) were removed in the M14 but a lot of the great things were kept like the M1, both are amazing to me
If you're looking for collector value, buy a Garand. If you're a shooter, an M1A. The M1A (M14) is a more modern development of the M1 Garand. The 7.62 NATO cartridge is a more modern round with ballistics nearly identical to the 30-06.
His Garand looks like a repro. No collector's value.
I disagree that there are more limitations on the 30-06 than 308. You can use 110 to 220 grain bullets in 30-06s, but are limited to 120 to 190 grains for the 308. Therefore there are more options for the reloader, survivalist, prepper, etc. using the 30-06 platform.
Bill White I mentioned ammo limitations if you want to use ammo just for M1s. If you're willing to use any 30-06 ammo in your M1, then I agree you have a lot of options. I stick to ammo loaded just for Garands.
Bill White 308 limit is not 190.
My local Walmart and Cabellas stock more 30-06 than 308....my informal gut feeling stat about which is more practicable. Just sayin'
Jonno2summit .308 rounds can be had from 110 to 220
Bill White The projectiles are the exact same and you can buy all of the weights for either
.308 is more accurate though that is a proven stat
But as far as hunting game goes the best rounds for either are 150 grain to 180 grain
Actually, I got both of them. M1A Loaded and CMP M1 Special. Both are fun as heck to shoot.
honestly I want both buns but I think I want the m1 garand more so I would buy that one first and the m1a later.
Good unbiased video! Getting both is the best way if you can swing it. But I can't justify that. I carried the M14 in the 1960s and believe the M1A is the better buy if you're going to actually use the rifle. For a working gun the improvements in the M1A are hard to ignore. For a collector's piece then how can you not choose the Garand. Anyway, I bought a Scout and call it my M1A Garand. That'll have to do!
These are "Nostalgia Rifles". They are collectable weapons. Normally they are picked for purchase from the heart and not the head. If you are into military rifles and you purchase one, eventually you will buy both. Jason Marque provided a very well written comment. His comments came from the head. I own neither. I qualified with both of these weapons while in the US Army during the Vietnam Era. When I carried a rifle in Vietnam, it was the M14(M1A). I was an armorer and I had my choice and the M16A was not mine.
Thanks for the nice in depth review on these fine weapons. I fired Expert with the M-14 during Basic Combat Training in the '60s. Later on I had occasion to train some at the Marine base at Camp Pendleton using an M1 and could not hit the broad side of a mansion sized barn. Most everybody else had no problem. I could argue the rifle was not zeroed in but it just didn't "feel" right for me personally so chalked it up to user failure. Obviously I'd opt for the M1-A
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE DEVIL DOG LEATHERNECK , " THIS IS MY RIFLE , THERE ARE MANY LIKE IT ----- BUT THIS 1 IS MINE " .
Heads up on Ammo. Both these rifles were designed to use powders with a specific pressure curve. It has to peak before the bullet passes the gas port or the op rod will be put under more stress than it was designed to handle. Commercial ammo may not have the correct curve. To protect my rifles I always use Surplus military ball. For hunting, I pull the FMJ's and replace them with Hornady ballistic tip bullets of the same weight or nearly so. Also the brass on military ball is annealed to help with the violent extraction. This may cause the brass to stretch when pulling the bullet so I check each hunting round with a chamber gauge. If I get a round that stretched, I use a shoulder bump die in my press to return it to spec. There are powders that imitate the curve of military powders but why waste the powder that is already there. There are some excellent youtube videos on this subject.
Schuster makes and adjustable gas plug for the M1. I have used them and they work well. You do have to tune them. You can then shoot heavier bullets. Also a slight correction. Commercial brass is annealed. They just tumble the brass after annealing. I personally haven't noticed too much stretching with my M1's and my reloads. I don't load out to max, which does help. I have been using HXP brass and have gotten three firings out of mine so far without trimming. I check my cases with a case gauge to make sure they are in spec. As far as powders, I use powders in the medium burn range. I have had good luck with IMR and H 4895 and the rifle I shoot more than the others seems to like IMR 4064 too. I use 168 grain Hornady Match BTHP's. My book has recipes for R-15 in that bullet weight too and I have a bunch of that so it will be my next test.
GordonTurnerpark Thanks for the tip about the adjustable gas plugs. I've seen them for the M1A. I'll give it a try. As far as milsurp is concerned, I like it because of the thicker case head as well as the annealing. Also, replacing the FMJ for hunting leaves the military primer in place. I may be a little more anal than most but I have witnessed an out of battery ignition and I believe some videos are available about it on youtube.. Now if I could just get my hands on some Lake City White Box...
I use a primer pocket uniforming tool. The HXP has been pretty uniform, but some of the LC I have reloaded could use some cleaning up. I did a test with a primed case using Remington primers. I put the case in the chamber and let the bolt slam home on it 60 plus times. It never went off. Interestingly, the firing pin dented the primer so much it looked like a fired round. I loaded it up and shot it at the range to make sure it wasn't a bad primer. I do pay close attention to seating depth with all my semi auto rifles with floating firing pins. If you are really concerned about primer sensitivity, get CCI primers. They make some with military firearms in mind. Garands did have a problem with slam fires initially and that was the reason they changed the firing pins. I have personally never had a slam fire on any primer EXCEPT with Federals. That was in an SKS.
GordonTurnerpark CCI is on the war, Thanks.
In my experience the M1 Garand can achieve maximum accuracy from two variables. The first is within the rifle itself. The receiver locks down like a vice when assembled. Replacing much of the wood in this area with bedding compound will really help tighten the action up. The front hand guard should also be as tight as possible using whatever means necessary. I use rubber O-rings that I cut and squish into the contact points. This takes minimal time and money and will increase accuracy, even with cheap surplus ammo.
Regarding the vented gas plug, pressure curve and ammunition. An unmodified M1 Garand firing 150 grain BTHP bullets at 2700-2800fps with medium burning powders will give excellent accuracy. Despite whatever pressure curve the Garand's design prefers. Especially in combination with the tightened receiver and hand guard techniques previously mentioned. Every rifle is different and prefers a specific bullet seating depth. Experimentation with bullet seating depth is the key to accuracy here. In theory the floating firing pin could potentially cause a slam fire, but I have never had one in 10+ years with the M1 Garand. The slam fire would most likely occur when bullets are seated out too far, in an attempt to touch the rifling. Best accuracy is usually obtained when the bullet doesn't quite touch the rifling, thus minimizing the risk of slam fire. Obviously, common sense and caution is the best protection when working with any firearm.
The vented gas plug does allow the use of heavier bullets, but the advantages over the 150 grain BTHP load are minimal. These small advantages come at an extra price of time, effort and money because the heavier loads must be fine tuned. The specialized vented gas plug also requires some tinkering. For a competition rifle the ends justify the means. However for the rest of us, the accurizing techniques and previously mentioned 150 grain load will be suffice. At the end of the day this allows us to spend more time behind the rifle and less time behind the loading bench.
The M1A is the improved M1 Garand. What do you want to buy? - an old surplus M1 Garand or an M1A that never jams, ammo is cheaper, and can hold more rounds than the M1 Garand.
More Army troops getting enhanced M14 rifles
9/17/12 | by Max Slowik 3 1566
Soldiers headed for Afghanistan are being re-trained to use newly-converted, enhanced M14s. At Johnson Field in Ft. Campbell, Hopkinsville, Kentucky, and Clarksville, Tennessee, select soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 327th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division, are training with their new Mark 14 Enhanced Battle Rifles (EBR). These troops are going to serve as an 11-man Personnel Security Detachment (PSD) team.
What’s old is new again as the EBR is based on the 7.62 NATO M14 battle rifle and is set up as a Designated Marksman’s Rifle and issued to soldiers who need the more potent cartridge and increased range over what the 5.56 NATO M4 carbine provides.
M14EBR-RI
“Today we are practicing and familiarizing ourselves with our new M14 7.62mm weapon before we go to the range in preparation for our fall deployment to Afghanistan,” said Spc. Daniel Lueptow. “Though I understand the need for adjustment for this upcoming deployment, I enjoyed the older model and did well with it on my last deployment.”
Since 2004 branches of the U.S. military has been re-issuing the M14 in EBR form, starting with the Navy SEALs and the Coast Guard. The Army has really embraced the EBR and has made two available for every infantry squad deployed to Afghanistan-it’s not just for select units.
For a time the Army re-issued standard M14 rifles but their fixed wooden stocks and lacking optics options made them a poor fit for modern soldiers. The Mark 14 is based on a standard M14 that has been outfitted with a shortened, heavy barrel with a new flash hider that has been bolted to a completely different chassis, complete with a quad rail, pistol grip and telescoping buttstock. These rifles are also issued with scopes for long-range shooting.
Soldiers issued enhanced M14sThese PSD troops are training on the Army-specific variant of the Mark 14 EBR, the M14EBR-RI. The Army’s EBR features a standard-weight and -length barrel, but otherwise maintains all of the other EBR improvements, including the chassis.
“I am learning the basic know-how of the M14s on site picture, the trigger squeeze and just the fundamentals on the weapons system in preparation for deployment,” said Pvt. Dylan McGalliard. “Growing up the way I did, we had a lot of hunting rifles that were the same caliber as this one, but on the military side this is my first time with a fancy one like this.”
Many people are happy to see that the Army and other branches of the U.S. military are bringing back the big .30 caliber long-stroke gas piston-operated rifles, with about the only criticism against them being that they’re not lightweight rifles. The M14EBR-RI weighs about 11.5 pounds unloaded and measures in at 40 inches long. That being said, they’re also soft-shooting and effective well beyond 800 meters with glass.
The Army is also testing new ammunition for the M4 carbine, improving its range to about 600 meters. Combined with these DMRs, our infantry are more effective at greater ranges than ever before.
If you like the idea of decking out your own M14 in the new EBR style, you can get one of several different designs manufactured by Sage International, who also supplies the military with theirs. If you like the idea but want something a little different, check out Troy International’s M14 offerings.
Photo credit Spc. Kadina Baldwin.
I think Jason Marquez said it all.
Used M1 Garand in1968 while I was on Marine Corps rifle team in Gitmo Cuba had an adaptor in chamber and fired a 7.62 round
I love my Springfield M1A!
my garand was rechambered in .308. Im actually quite happy with it over the 30-06 I just find that its not quite as flat shooting. and the .308 garands are cheaper. I would rather have the Garand personally more fun to shoot especially after the 8th round :)
The M-1 Garand has a 24-inch barrel with 1:10 RHT, whereas the M1A has a 22-inch barrel with 1:11 RHT. In theory, the Garand's faster twist rate should make it a better platform for using heavier, longer projectiles - but there is the issue of the gas system and the types of pressure profiles the M-1 was designed to handle in its gas system. The M-1 was designed around a specific range of burn rates and powders, similar to IMR-4895 and IMR-4064. If the user desires to use commercial 30-06 hunting ammunition, for example, then he is recommended to install an after-market gas plug which will allow the safe use of higher pressure loads. If the user reloads, in principle, there is no reason the Garand can't be loaded using heavier projectiles than 175-grain, such as the 190-grain SMK BTHP, to name one - provided the user doesn't stress the gas system with a load which is too hot and/or too high pressure. There is another way to use heavier and/or commercial-type loads, and that is to convert the M-1 into a single shot, but loosening the gas plug before use. This will have the effect of making the rifle a single shot, which has to be cycled by hand. I learned this trick from some seasoned old Garand owners, who take part in long-range competition with their M-1s, and wanted a method of shooting heavy loads but without damaging their antique collectibles.
people gotta remember..... 308 was developed with better powders becoming more common letting them get identical ballistics and power in a smaller case....
I own a .308 Tanker Garand, which I like. And owned an M1A for 19 yrs before I sold it. I bought a new FN-FAL from DSA in the '90's & have found the recoil about half that of the other two. The accuracy is VG & the shorter stock is better for me. The FN is the better of the three, & I'll never sell it. I owned a German HK-91 in the '80's & got rid of the beast after a couple of yrs. Damn thing nearly beat me to death when firing it. Trigger pull sucked, & it threw the brass half way back to Germany. I wouldn't take three of 'em for my FN. Garands are nice, & everybody should own one. The M-14 is what I used in Marine Corps bootcamp. I feel our military screwed up choosing the M-14 over the FN, but feel the M-16 is a good weapon too. The FN rifle was used by over 90 countries, & everyone of them's military has regretted losing them to the .223 rifles. Especially the UK.
LOL. I owned a PTR 91 (HK clone). I hated it because of the recoil and how it destroyed brass. I sold it and picked up a DSA FAL. Recoil is tame compared to that PTR. I like being able to dial in the gas system and even the ability to cut it out completely and make it a straight pull bolt action. I do own more than a few M1 Garands and there is more recoil, but the weight compensates for much of it. I love shooting them. A tanker? I imagine it was miserable to shoot. I haven't fired a tanker, but I did fire a friend's SOCOM. I didn't care for it.
Not to mention the muzzle blast from a 16 inch barrel is no fun no matter how much protection you got on.
In return for promising to adopt the 7.62x51 NATO as the standard NATO service round, the American government promised to adopt the FN FAL, but reneged on that pledge and adopted the M14 instead. Are you happy with your DSA? Which model did you select?
I've actually had some SA80 fanboys - who claim to be British solders - tell me that POS was better than a FAL!
I own both, a M1 and a M1A National Match. I would recommend getting a nice M1 first, they are getting harder to find in really good shape and the price just keeps going up. You have several choices for an M14 type rifle. LRB and James River offer forged receivers while the Springfield M1A is cast but comes with a lifetime warranty. For hunting I would buy a dedicated bolt action rifle chambered for whatever game animals that you are going to be hunting the most. Scoping the M1A for hunting will cost you around $350 for the scope mount alone. I would not scope the M1.
Don't add unnecessary stress to your life: get both! Garands are great war horses - tough, hard-hitting and battle-tested. But 30-06 ammunition is expensive and the mil-surp '06 is pretty much used up. You may be able to find some at a gun show if you are lucky. Given this fact, some M-1 connoisseurs convert their M-1s to fire 7.62x51 NATO (.308). Since modern propellants have made the 12mm additional length of the 30-06 case over the 7.62x51 NATO unnecessary to attaining decent MVs, the sights still function fine with the .308. Garands, because they are clip-fed from the top when loaded, and eject spend clips likewise, they are difficult to scope. The Army and Marine Corps - in the M-1C/D models, did manage to scope the rifle, but the optic had to be offset to the left several inches to allow room for the loading/unloading from the top. If you like the Garand, but want one which is magazine-fed and shoots .308, consider getting a James River BM-59 replica. "BM-59" stands for "Beretta Modification-1959." Beretta of Italy, one of the world's oldest and most-respected gun-makers, was tasked by the Italian government with modifying the M-1 Garand to serve as Italy's NATO-era rifle - and equip Italian mountain troops and other forces in the late 1950s. Beretta made them select-fire, modified the M-1 design to allow for the use of a 20-round box magazine, and made some other changes as well - resulting in a rifle that many believe is the finest evolution of the M-1 available. James River's excellent reproduction is semi-automatic only, but otherwise faithfully recreates the Col War-era BM-59. Since it is mag-fed, you can scope it if you like without any complications. The M14/M1A is a product-improved M-1 Garand. It fires the 7.62x51 NATO round, is fed from a box-magazine, and has improvements/modifications to the controls, sights as well. The gas system is greatly improved in comparison to the Garand, and is self-adjusting, self-regulating and - to a degree - self-cleaning. Some military issue M14s were select fire, but since so few GIs could control them well in full-auto, that feature was disabled in many of these rifles. M1As are excellent rifles; in particular, its sights and trigger excel those of other designs from that time. Highly-accurized versions with match-grade trigger, barrel and the action bedded are capable of moa- or even-sub moa performance when firing match-grade loads. Since the M14/M1A scopes well, it has seen considerable use as a designated marksman rifle (DMR) in Afghanistan and Iraq, often with the old-school wood stock replaced by a Sage EBR or other modular chassis system to allow the mounting of laser aiming devices, scopes/optics, RF devices and other accessories.
If you don't use a round within the powder burn rate parameters in the Garand there's a possibility of bending the operating rod. I have 9 Garands and all are top notch. Three are 30-06 and one is a Navy gun that is .308. I also have 4 M1A's, one standard, one loaded and two are national match.
Good video.
I think both HOWEVER if you have to pick up one first I say the M1A. I have fired both and initially wanted to get a garrand first but after doing research about the gas system and some flaws with it I decided the M1A would be first. I love to shoot and maintain but I am not an armorer and want a reliable weapon than I can spend more time shooting than maintaining. This is not a mark on the garrand and eventually I will get one but if your on the fence it's also one thing to note that having a 20 round box mag. Just my 2 cents but whatever you choose both are iconic weapons.
The Army also experimented with the M1 Garand in 308 I guess they'd rather have the M14 because of the Box magazine was more efficient I own an M1A but I plan on buying a M1 Garand also
If I could only have 1 it would be the G and they are getting harder to get for sure. The G is slightly lighter, and does not try to slide down your shoulder. Accuraccy depends on the gun, either could win, depends on the gun.
You can buy a vented gas plug for about $25 that fixes that issue. It vents off the extra gas so you can fire commercial .30-06 as well as the old surplus M2 Ball.
Bonus to the M1 Garand, it doesn't violate any states "assault weapon ban", so if you're traveling to, or through one of those states, the M1 is a win. I have friends that are very anti-gun, and they approve of the M1, for whatever reason. Its less "scary" to some people.
If I had the money, I'll get both of them. I love 308/762x51. Never tried 3006 yet.
Funny how I actually bought both in a year's time.
I have both and used the M14 for a time in VN. But the M1 is really neat and fun= my favorite. Open sights a challenge when u get older on both so I had to convert to larger after market apitures which reduces accuracy a bit. The ballistics out to 300 yds are about the same so fun to learn with the clicks.
Both rifles are great... A removable magazine is a plus but not required compared to an Enblock or internal magazine. A Garand can be a 30-06 or a 308 but a M1A is only a 308 in stock form. You can rebarrel to any brass configuration from 22-250, 257, 7-08, or 338 pretty easily and they work very well. Using a scope mount the M1A is far easier. Several excellent quick install mounts available. A Garand puts the scope off center or with a CASM mount you can do it on bore center. Or you can use a scout mount and EER scope on a tanker version only. Note a Garand is lower on the radar of the state and federal gun control politicians.
They do sell both 2 and 5 round enbloc clips for the Garand. For competition/target/hunting.
The m1 grand is the best rifle for hitting the target close up within the area depending on where you are located at on the battlefield or in close range in civilian life so my thought is the m1 is awesome then the m 1 a1 is great too even the m14
The garand wins due to the ping
Then your enemies will know that you're out of ammo.
Hard to hear that over the din of battle, my friend.
Let them come get it...
@@zeussx2120 I call BS,the enemy is not going to be that close
@@zeussx2120 I call BS
Ammo options for the 30.06 has always been better. The advantage of the 06 is in wildcatting.
There are competitions around America and culminating with a National Match at Camp Perry Ohio. Everyone in these shoot an M1A or M14 if the military is using it. All services, cops, snipers, sniper wanna be's, SWAT teams, and civilians from AROUND THE WORLD, ALL go to Camp Perry for this match of the season to see who will be the National Champion.
Nunya Beeswax I've competed at Camp Perry probaby a dozen times, the last time being maybe eight to ten years ago. For "service rifle" competition, nearly everyone uses the AR15. Years ago it was dominated by the M1, then the M14. It is my understanding that today it is primarily AR-15. There are matches for the Garand only, but the M1A a.k.a. M14 has fallen out of favor to the AR. If I didn't own one, I would get a Garand first, before an M1A. Which is best? Just depends on you. M1s are not still being made. 7.62x51 is easier to find than M2 ball for the Garand. The Garand can not shoot off the shelf "hunting ammo" with out risking damage to the op rod. It is pretty much a toss up as to accuracy between the two.
Get an adjustable gas plug and you can shoot just about whatever you want with a Garand! :)
You can get 25 rounders for the M1A as well
i like the 30-06 best, and since garands are getting scarce id go for it....however, i like the larger magazine of the m1a and the function of it,,,,,it may be collectable but they will be available later,,,,,,id get the garand first and the m1a later, you cant go wrong..i have 1 m1a national match and 3 garands also 215 other fun items,,,,investments for the future, be sure to stock up on ammo,,,,,
I'd go with the M1A first. Then add the Garand later if you want. The M1A is a great do it all rifle...and .308 is easier to find, and less expensive. If you shoot a lot, the extra money of the M1A will equal out rapidly.
If to choose the rifle for fun, defence your home (particularly in the country) - M1A.
If as a survivalist thing - better Garand.
Why? The only one feature - adjustable bayonette.
"I" would say go with the M1,. supplies are getting down and the M1A is still I'm production.
The M1A is the main model for Camp Perry competition and not the M1. I used the M14 in combat in Vietnam and can assure you the M14 gets the nod.
That fact alone gives it the edge too me - detachable magazines are just the best solution. They are close, but the M1A gets the win. Some may disagree.
nashi55 ..Agreed. But SOON...hopefully, I’ll track down a nice WWII M1. The M1A is already taken care of...
The trigger guard on the special should be on the M1-A with the 30 O 6 and whalla!!!! No trouble deciding then. lol, But hey, the mag is a bit more efficient! I'd take either one though, for great shooting & feel with a longer range reliability. Thanks for sharing
Another thing to keep in mind is that surplus M14 stocks are available and inexpensive, while a USGI M1 stock in good condition is hard to find and costly.
Had a 762 garand was great, but a box mag would have been so much more convenient. So would be the M14 for me.
Buy the the m1a because it's an improvement of a m1. I think it is better because it has a mag and a roller on the bolt. They ask the grunts on how to improve the m1 so they did.
This is a very easy decision. The M1A is a reproduction and is readily available at any time. The prices stay pretty much consistent. The M1 is quickly going away since only 5million were ever made. Buy the M1....they don't make them anymore. They are part of history and the m1a is cool but is still in production in the semi-automatic form. I own 2 M1s from the CMP and they are beautiful and accurate. I will eventually buy an m1a but I have the m1s for only $620 each in Service form about 3 years ago. They are more than double that at gun shows now. Also, I bought a 5 round clip for the m1 and sighted it in with 125 grain soft point ammo from Federal and was a tack driver. I plan on using it to take a doe this next year. I have no doubts of its abilities.
The limitations he is referring to with the 30.06 only apply to the garand specifically. The m1 garand was designed to shoot 150 grain ball ammo and the operating rod and gas tolerances are pretty tight. If you go buy just any grain 30.06 and run it through the garand you risk catastrophic failure of the gun components. I have a garand and love it even with the 150 grain limit. It is still a very hard hitting accurate weapon and in my opinion much more superior to the AR.
Actually, the Garand tolerates bullets of 170-175 grains very well since John C. Garand originally designed his rifle to be used with the then-standard service M1 Ball 30-06 ammunition, which used a 173-grain FMJ projectile. That was the round in use at the time the Garand was adopted as the standard service rifle of the U.S. Army in 1936, as well as in previous years when the weapon was being developed. The switch to 150-grain M2 Ball came in 1938. When informed of the switch, Garand was initially worried that the newer and lighter bullet would not perform well in his design, but these fears proved unjustified after he worked with the ordnance department to adapt the new round to his rifle. Garands have a 1:10 right-hand twist barrel which is about optimal for a slug of 170-175-grains. What is critical in the Garand is that the loads shot through it use the correct propellants, similar in burn rate and gas pressure curve, to those generated by powders such as IMR-4064 and IMR-4895 or similar - as with the M1/M2 Ball loads. Modern 30-06 hunting loads are designed to be used in bolt-action rifles, for the most part, and are at higher than optimal pressures for the Garand operating system. Get an after-market adjustable gas plug if you want to use those kinds of loads; they moderate the pressure to a level safe for use in the M-1. Or just save your hunting loads for your bolt-action.
The Garand because it has an internal magazine.
Having used both in the Army - I went thru during the change over from the Garand to the M14. I preferred the Garand due to (1) the M14's fore stock was plastic and shooting at the *&^$@#** NVA , it would get so hot I couldn't hold onto the M14. (2) the Garand is easier to carry (the German Hand-carry especially) (3) Yeah, 18 in the clip was better than * rounds, but I still preferred the Garand. Just a matter of choice. Fact is guys, if civilization falls I prefer to be holding a Garand.
Thanks for serving. I feel the same and is why they out number my M1A 10 to 1.
I know some older gentleman who carried the M-1 in combat, and they say that one of the nice secrets about the Garand is that the en bloc clips are not only light, relatively speaking, but compact in size - which made it easy for troopers to stuff extra clips into pockets, musette bags, bandoleers, etc. Standard combat load was 80 rounds, but a lot of grunts took double that amount into the field when they were patrolling or sent out on missions.
Maybe I’m just old school despite being 22, but I don’t like plastic stuff... I’ve handled the synthetic guns of today, and they feel cheap and shoddy.
Maybe I’m just being retarded but the weight and steel behind the overbuilt Garand gives me a psychological boost.
I have talked to Korean vets (I wish there were more ww2 vets left, I miss listening to them share stories) who said that the front handguard of the garand would smolder while fighting off waves of Chinese. Every once in a while they would stop and dump some snow on the handguard to keep the temperature down.
Either rifle will serve you well, the biggest advantage of the M1A over the Garand is the magazine capacity. In my opinion both are better than the M16 / AR-15 platform
in the 5.56mm because of the .308 diameter bullet. My friends who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan have said that the military is re-issuing the M14 back into the service.
***** No he ain't....I was issued a refurbished M1a, as a sniper rifle during my second tour of Iraq. Had a Leupold variable 3.5 to 10x scope
***** More Army troops getting enhanced M14 rifles
9/17/12 | by Max Slowik 3 1566
Soldiers headed for Afghanistan are being re-trained to use newly-converted, enhanced M14s. At Johnson Field in Ft. Campbell, Hopkinsville, Kentucky, and Clarksville, Tennessee, select soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 327th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division, are training with their new Mark 14 Enhanced Battle Rifles (EBR). These troops are going to serve as an 11-man Personnel Security Detachment (PSD) team.
What’s old is new again as the EBR is based on the 7.62 NATO M14 battle rifle and is set up as a Designated Marksman’s Rifle and issued to soldiers who need the more potent cartridge and increased range over what the 5.56 NATO M4 carbine provides.
M14EBR-RI
“Today we are practicing and familiarizing ourselves with our new M14 7.62mm weapon before we go to the range in preparation for our fall deployment to Afghanistan,” said Spc. Daniel Lueptow. “Though I understand the need for adjustment for this upcoming deployment, I enjoyed the older model and did well with it on my last deployment.”
Since 2004 branches of the U.S. military has been re-issuing the M14 in EBR form, starting with the Navy SEALs and the Coast Guard. The Army has really embraced the EBR and has made two available for every infantry squad deployed to Afghanistan-it’s not just for select units.
For a time the Army re-issued standard M14 rifles but their fixed wooden stocks and lacking optics options made them a poor fit for modern soldiers. The Mark 14 is based on a standard M14 that has been outfitted with a shortened, heavy barrel with a new flash hider that has been bolted to a completely different chassis, complete with a quad rail, pistol grip and telescoping buttstock. These rifles are also issued with scopes for long-range shooting.
Soldiers issued enhanced M14sThese PSD troops are training on the Army-specific variant of the Mark 14 EBR, the M14EBR-RI. The Army’s EBR features a standard-weight and -length barrel, but otherwise maintains all of the other EBR improvements, including the chassis.
“I am learning the basic know-how of the M14s on site picture, the trigger squeeze and just the fundamentals on the weapons system in preparation for deployment,” said Pvt. Dylan McGalliard. “Growing up the way I did, we had a lot of hunting rifles that were the same caliber as this one, but on the military side this is my first time with a fancy one like this.”
Many people are happy to see that the Army and other branches of the U.S. military are bringing back the big .30 caliber long-stroke gas piston-operated rifles, with about the only criticism against them being that they’re not lightweight rifles. The M14EBR-RI weighs about 11.5 pounds unloaded and measures in at 40 inches long. That being said, they’re also soft-shooting and effective well beyond 800 meters with glass.
The Army is also testing new ammunition for the M4 carbine, improving its range to about 600 meters. Combined with these DMRs, our infantry are more effective at greater ranges than ever before.
If you like the idea of decking out your own M14 in the new EBR style, you can get one of several different designs manufactured by Sage International, who also supplies the military with theirs. If you like the idea but want something a little different, check out Troy International’s M14 offerings.
Photo credit Spc. Kadina Baldwin.
***** Being deployed about 5 years ago, I can tell you I saw M14s being carried by troops. I was in Iraq and I saw them there.
to my knowledge it was dependant on where they were operating in more open areas of combat the 308 is better as it can reach out..... but the M4 was still in use with more urban operating units? i might be wrong there....
When you look at the numbers, the 30-06 splits the difference between the 300 magnum and the 308.
The 30-06 has a slight edge over the 308, and the 300 magnum has an edge over the 30-06.
M1 Garand is the classic & legend made of wood & forged steel 1936-1957.... and no longer made like that & availably limited. It turns heads in public and commands more respect by Vets and rookies when seen. IMO, M1 Garand is 10, M1A is 6.... good day sammy
I toted an M-14 during 1965-66 and I also have and expert marksmanship badge in both an Garand and M-14. Believe me if have to go back into battle I want my M-14.
I'm going to say what everyone is actually thinking - A Garand is too expensive to plink with, hard to accessorize, and won't handle a true .30-06 load - a heavy load for a .308 will break a Garands op rod, so what will a heavy load for a .30-06 do to it? And is requires those stupid spring clips. In other words it's a toy or a wall hanger.
An M1A with a standard profile barrel (18in barrel best for this) should be shot with whatever cheap NATO ball ammo you can find with an adjustable gas plug for a can. Something with a heavier pattern barrel needs to be set up for 175SMKs(don't bother with anything else) with a heavier op rod guide and national match piston OR adjustable gas plug if you want to hang a can on it, but do NOT use both.
In other words, buy a Scout Squad or a National Match. A Garand is now a relic.
Buy both
Buy both! I did and love them both! Idaho
I received a near new garand lend lease from DCM in the 1970s I still use it with 220gn silver tips because I like the hard tip..nothing has bent . bore still gage 1+ 2 My 1980s SA M1A NM is a tack driver buy both lol
Thanks for the comparisons. I enjoy your videos. I own both. I love shooting them both, although the M1 is a little more fun. Hearing the en bloc ping is one of the rewards of shooting the M1, when your aim is pure shooting enjoyment. I have wondered if the internals on the M1A1 were the same quality as the M1. I've noticed you digging into the M1A a bunch. I'm guessing that you're equally familiar with both. Care to share any observations about that?
+Secret Agent Thanks - they are both great.
A couple of things if you know what you are doing you can "top off" the m1
And you can get 5 rounder and I think 2 or 3 em block clips