Your test is featured in the latest Garand collectors association magazine, which further disproves the myth of not being able to shoot commercial ammo, well done!
Thanx for doing the testing for us... Back in 1989 I picked up a Garand for my Dad (Korean War vet) ... this was his deer rifle until ~ 2015 when he gave up hunting... Dad fed it a diet of Remington 180gr high velocity soft points ~200 rounds of this down the barrel in the time he had the rifle... The Garand is now in my vault and the op rod is fine and functional. Dad of course knew very well how to maintain the rifle ... you might say it was drilled into him...
I bought one for my Dad as well who was also a Korean War Vet . His eyes about popped out of his head when I gave it to him . Standing in my living room he took and and started doing drills with it like he had done it yesterday . Sadly he passed in 2020 and now sets in my safe with a couple other Garand’s .
I had been thinking about this for a few years and im glad to seem someone else who believes what i do and has actually taken the time to test the theory. This is why I don’t rely on gun forums to get my information. Forums are full of guys who do nothing but repeat what someone else told like its gospel. All to make themselves look like they know everything.
You make valid points, I purchased the garandgear.com ported gas plug which is supposed to let you shoot anything out of your M1. So far it has worked well for me. I spent the $40 on the plug "just in case". I'd hate to turn this piece of history into a paper weight. However handsome a paper weight it might be. I agree with your logic, but would still rather be cautious. Thank you for your video.
From my experience, a lot of “safety” information we see now is for legal reasons, as opposed to actual safety. Thank you for this testing. My wife gave me a “new” M1 Garand from CMP last Christmas, and an adjustable gas plug at the same time. I didn’t know any better. I do enjoy the ability to tune it, but I don’t believe it was necessary.
Thanks for the video. I have run modern commercial, hand loads (never exceeded book values for max loading), steel case, and milspec ammo in 3 different Garands. I have used the low pressure gas plug from Garand gear and the Shuster adjustable plug. I have never had a malfunction related to low or high power ammo and I’ve never had a bent oprod. I suspect that low power ammo and extremely cold temps could combine to cause a short stroke type of failure when running the low pressure gas plug, but I haven’t seen it happen yet. Coldest temps have been in the teens F. I have tested other firearms down to -14 F, and can tell you that you will start to see problems in lots of firearms at those temps (Beretta 92 is the most disappointing in my stable). My solution is to run the Garand Gear low pressure plug, shoot whatever ammo I want to, and keep the stock plug in the stock so that I can put it back in if I ever encounter cold weather induced short stroke failures.
Its not a "plug" it's actually a gas cylinder lock screw. There is still no reason to swap out original parts that work perfectly for aftermarket items that separate you from your money.
@@caseybrown5183 About a hundo... but if your rifle is properly greased and has a good oprod spring in it...you shouldn't have any worries Providing it wasn't bent by some yahoo while it was still in service.
I just bought an M1 from CMP and while I was looking into the rifle on other videos, I was so worried that I would have to buy only m2 ball and buy an updated gas port but this video just put me at ease. Thanks
I enjoyed the video. I very seldom shoot mine anymore but have recently taken her out for a spin and remembered how much I enjoy it. I always understood the original loading of the ammo for the 1903 was loaded down because of the Mauser action, but this clears up a lot of myth
Sir, nicely done work on the article in the latest "GCA Journal". The issue is and always will be the relative burn rate of the smokeless powder used in the M1 rifle. Decades ago the "American Rifleman Magazine" technical writers wrote "use NO powder slower than 4320 in the Garand". The reason being that slow powder granules were blown into the gas cylinder and burned there creating more pressure increasing op rod speed and damaged the rear face of the bolt and the exposed tang of the firing pin upon striking the heel of the receiver. Wish I could cite volume/issue but I cannot. I discarded boxes of the "Rifleman" when I moved many years ago.
Hey MG: Very interesting, thanks. I reload my ammo for my M1 rifle. One factor you left out of your experiement, powder burn rate. As I understand it, the US Army settled on IMR 4895 for its M2 cartridge. That's a relatively fast powder compared to others used in commercial ammo. The slower the powder's burn rate, the higher the port pressure. Among your vary large sample, that sort of averages our and op rod speed is mostly proportional to bullet velocity. - Z
The didn't settle on 4895 at all. 4895 didn't get loaded in ammo until around 1944. The claim 4895 was "designed for" or it "the original garand powder" are all false. There were several different types of powder loaded in the military 30cal ammo. The port pressures from milsurp ammo are very similar to commercial ammo presssures. Commercial ammo is safe in a properly working garand.
basicly I had a brand new m1 garand 1942 receiver devil dog shooting team rifle I didnt know about the ammo thing I fired 300 rounds of winchester 180 grain soft points and and 220 gran remington . grenade launcher gas plug locked open and saved the gun the op rod had 2 sharp bends in it grinding into both sides i straitened it works fine the Garand exploded many bolts before they got it dialed in . the 30 06 is in fact a 300 magnum buy the Garand gear gas plug if your going to shoot full power rounds
Very good information. Good history of round and rifle. This needs to be put out more. I am sure the some of the reasons the M1 Garands fail is lack of maintenance, lack of oiling/greasing, and some parts are very old. These rifles are 70 to 60 years old. When was the last time anyone saw a 70 or 60 year old item work as well as it did when it was new? When things get old some parts wear out and need replaced.
With the rifle having its gas port VERY close to the muzzle and te Op-rod being fairly lightweight, the pressure curve at the port would be a narrow spike. The port gas acts pretty much like a hammer..The trick with the op-rod spring is that it is always under compression, moving or at rest.The idea is to NOT run it into "spring-bind" territory, BUT it does slow the initial rearward speed of the bolt and rod. This is VITAL as a "tired" or otherwise "out of spec" spring will result in the bolt hitting the rear of the receiver with excessive violence. . This ultimately results in CRACKED rear sections of the receiver. A couple of new springs is a lot simpler to deal with than the paperwork to "write-off" a serial-numbered receiver. When I was servicing M-60 MGs, it was NORMAL practice to replace EVERY coil spring on an annual basis. Even the tiny ones that drive the pressure levers in the feed cover AND the extractor and ejector springs. These are VERY prone tot water ingress and subsequent corrosion. Rust KILLS springs. When in doubt, swap 'em out! This is why the ONLY reference for a "stock' Garand M-1 is the original service-issue workshop manual(s). Armourers were (are!) required to do thorough component inspections, including measuring the "relaxed" length of springs and then, using carefully-calibrated equipment, measure the "load" required to haul a spring, like the op-rod spring, through its nominal travel. There is a LOT more to "gun-plumbing" than a quick "visual" and a squirt of oil.
I believe the one factor that no one has talked about is chamber and gas port pressure. I do not think the bolt speed is the indicator that determines whether a certain load is safe. The damage to the oprod, regardless of bolt speed, happens with a slow burning powder, which is generally how commercial ammo gets its higher velocity, when the case in the chamber, due to high pressure, is still adhering to the chamber wall while the gas port pressure is trying to force the bolt open, and the case is trying to NOT move. This is when the oprod has to bend, perhaps permanently. The faster burning powders such as IMR 4895 and 4064 were the wartime powders, in addition to a ball powder which I don't know the modern equivalent. COTW lists this info in the back of that book. I have witnessed M1A rifles pull the rims off cases with a load that was safe, but using a slow burning powder meant the case in the chamber was not yet ready to release! The commercial ammo that is advertised as acceptable for the M1 most likely has the correct burning rate powder and that's why it works. I do think bolt speed is useful info but it doesn't tell the complete story. As far as Herr Cobra is concerned, I agree with him that non-M2 or M72 ammo, or equivalent, will NOT be shot in my M1's for the above reasons. I do not think InRange TV or the milsurp guy are painting a complete and accurate picture.
What dictates bolt/oprod speed? "Port pressure"... thats why oprod velocity is a valid thing to look at. The oprod doesn't move until the bullet is out the barrel and the casing is no longer pressurized against the chamber walls. I'm sorry you don't understand how this works.
I think there are too many shooters and reloaders that don't understand the difference between C.U.P. and P.S.I. The older C.U.P. numbers are always smaller than the P.S.I. equivalent. There are very involved papers on correlation and conversion but it's almost algebra. Luckily there are charts listing cartridges showing both numbers in columns. Best to search for those and you'll see sometimes the numbers are very close but mostly there's a sizeable spread. Long story short, confirm the measurement system used to generate a pressure value. Thanks very much for a well done video with some actual scientific testing. Peace from Canada 🇨🇦
Really very interested in your testing. Definitly gunna bring this spreadsheet up with some of my friends who shoot M1s as well. Ive always bought M1/M2 ball cus its always been the cheapest but its nice to know if im in a pinch I can just grab any old box of Ought six. Im curious to know if the Saturn type gas plug might affect pressure at all, I doubt it would but still. Would love to see a video on an M1 shooting steel case. Ive tried it a few times and my rifle will not work right with it.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. So tired of seeing M1 Garand "experts" who have either never owned the rifle or just got one from CMP make dozens of videos stating as an absolute fact that you can only shoot 150 gr. M2 ball or you'll destroy the op rod.
Dude people who say that never read the manual CMP puts with the gun. Mine said up to 180gr is safe to use in the M1. My m1 was part of the Special line where they rebuilt the entire gun the barrel on mine was dated 2014 and the stock was marked with the cmp stamp just below the receiver. CMP knows M1s better than anyone and if they side 180g is fine to use I’d take their word for it
Thanks for demystifying! I've been told, back in the day, that Garands were intentionally overgassed to ensure reliable function. In your view, is there benefit to an adjustable gas system (e.g. Schuster Mfg.) say, to prolong the service life?
Great video! Love the info. There are a few manufacturers out there that advertise 30.06 made for M1 Garand. Problem is that none of those are soft point. FMJ rifle ammo isn’t allowed at any outdoor ranges near me in North Texas. You have a suggestion?
Dude, the man just posted scientific evidence that you can shoot commercial ammo in your rifle. Shoot what you want to hunt with, or practice with, etc.
TMG did some great research and his descriptions of US martial 30-06 ammo is spot on. He also did a great job setting up his rifle properly (Orion7 spring, greased according to manual, cylinder and gas plug per technical manual). His tests were run pretty well. I’d say well enough to be meaningful to draw some conclusions from. But they have the exact same limitations of the tests done by InRangeTV: There’s no clock, so they’re trusting calculations based on the claimed frame-rate of the camera, and there’s no Piezo-Electric sensor at the gas port to measure the port pressure. Those two things are needed to be statistically accurate. The point where I throw a flag on TMG is his conclusions. He said Springfield Armory says the max speed for the op-rod is 26 feet per second. (I’d like to know the source for that, btw - Not doubting TMG, just want to document the info which was new to me.) 26 x 12 = 312; so, the MAX op-rod speed to be within Springfield Armory specifications is 312 Inches Per Second. The problem with TMG’s conclusions is he never set that as his max and goes on to say ammo (commercial, HXP, etc.) with higher op-rod speeds is fine, OK, no problem. 329, 333, 325, and others on that spreadsheet which are above 312 are not safe to shoot in a properly set up Garand with good barrel, proper lube, correct cylinder and plug! He is falling for the myth himself. He is believing because “M2 Ball is safe/good, and HXP M2 is 329 inch-per-second, that all ammo up to that is safe.” The truth is, the Greeks weren’t part of the design team for the Garand. They also didn’t set up or run the Ammunition plants, such as Frankford Arsenal. Of course they built out-of-spec ammo and called it M2 ball! Same thing happened during WWII. St.Louis, Des Moines, Denver, and all of the rapidly set up and manned ammunition plants had teething troubles and made ammo of varying quality. There was a war on for goodness sakes! Niceties of 5 inch per second bolt speed be damned! The bolt speed of 312 inches per second should be viewed the same as a maximum load in a reloading handbook. It’s not to be exceeded without potential risk at an unknown point beyond the limit. Can you do it? Sure. Is it safe? Maybe; maybe not. (In the context of the Garand “safe” means not damaging your op-rod.) The proper conclusion from this test is exactly that NOT all ammunition is appropriate for the Garand. Bolt speeds of 280 to 300 inches per second are probably ideal. You want reliable cycling and bolt lock-back without stressing the op-rod. Load accordingly and pick ammo wisely.
Thanks for the comment... I did address the 26fps oprod speed in the description above and clarified my remarks that I said in the video. "PS: The comment about the 26fps oprod velocity was from Scott Duff, noted garand expert. In further conversation with him the number was taken from a picture showing some sort of test and that velocity. There was no context in it and he doesn't have that original document anymore. So to say 26fps is the "max" oprod velocity would not be correct until more info surfaces that shows Springfield Armory actually ..so my comment saying it was the "max" is my error in the video." Gas port/chamber/cylinder pressure testing has already been done with some follow up testing to be concluded shortly. But in short the numbers from that testing further confirm my videos conclusions. More details in the near future...stay tuned..
First off. Outstanding video! Do you think it’s a good idea for the average garand owner (someone that doesn’t check the spec of everything) to use Garand specific loads like the ones made by PPU or S&B because if their spring is slightly light from age that 27fps could become 30fps vs PPU going from 24fps to 27fps? Just curious on your thoughts on it.
Regardless of if this is “myth” or not, I still spend $40 for the Garand Gear company’s ported Gas plug. It reduces gas pressure in the gas cylinder (only, and NOT chamber pressures) by 30%. So if I were to shoot something really “hot” (which I don’t), it “might” protect the gun’s op-Rod and I have NOTHING to lose. If it’s all just myth, We’ll then I still haven’t hurt anything by installing it on my two Garands. I don’t like anything above SAAMI pressures anyways and I NEVER shoot +P nor +P+ ammo in any of my guns. I think that by slightly reducing pressure in the gas chamber, it gives the Garand a little “break” and might prolong the life of the gun long after I die and pass the gun down to my son. I’ve been using Garand Gear’s ported has plug for about three years and it’s NEVER caused any malfunction in my two Garands. I love the device. By the way, I took one of my M1 Garands deer hunting f for the first time and scored me a nice 3x2 mulie! WINNING!
Smart man. I came to the same conclusion. I use the Garand gear plug when I shoot "mill spec" ammo and the Schuster for even spicier stuff. I've heard that a lot of modern 30-06 that says for m1 Garand is not true m2 ball spec and a bit hotter like PPU for example and I worry that some surplus 30-06 might not have been stored properly and might suffer from Turkish 8mm Mauser syndrome.
@@dancortes3062 Yeah I recently just had delivered the Schuster adjustable plug several days ago. I thought it is probably better than the Garand Gear one. So,I’ll be installing the Schuster and “tuning” it at the next range session. It’s cheap insurance. I’m also ordering two for my M1-A’s as well.
Not just the op rod but preventing the bolt from slamming the receiver heel and cracking it. That's with heavier than spec. or Xtra power ammo, those war horses are worth a little TLC as historical pieces.
Carry over term from the days of using musket ball as standard ammo. Today any FMJ ammo can be called ball interchangeably with FMJ, especially any military or former military cartridge.
How i heard about the whole "modern ammo is dangerous" myth actually wasnt for the m1 garand. It was about a 1893 7mm spanish mauser. My father picked one up and I got curious about the history. About a couple clicks later. I end up reading a few comments from a handful of different guys stating that shooting "modern ammo" is bad/dangerous for that gun. I immediately took that with a grain of salt. Now i hear it about the m1? My father has a 1895ish lever action and we both have shot modern ammo through that. Never had an issue. So is every vintage gun gonna have that issues because some idiot cant figure things out for him self? Whats next the mosin nagant? Oh thats right the hex mosin is "better in accuracy". People are now just debunking the type 38 arisaka isnt trash. Im surprised the forgotten weapons dude just ate the bad info for a meal and regurgitated it. Im still gonna read into it all so I can debunk the dummies.
Thank you. Fantastic "Mith Busting" science. I have the same question another did: What are the color designations (for us slowpokes) in the spread sheet?
FULL load military 30-06 can be fired in the Garand. BUT..research the WHY Garand ammo was made vs full load ammo. It had something to do with the operation of the gases. True Garand ammo had a milder load. NOTE.....M1 BALL......and M2 BALL...Research the reason.
That was very good info! I have been thinking about buying a M1 garand but was worrying about ammo. So you're thinking that most of the commercial Most between 150 and 165 is safe? I'm really interested in being able to shoot the Nosler partitions in 150 + 165 at 3000 and 2840. Thanks I appreciate it
I know the tachometer on my truck has a red line but if i rev the engine past it it most likely will not blow up but if i do it enough it probably will ! They add a red line for a reason.
Did you use luberplate grease? That's the recommended high temp grease for any military surplus rifle. I know 'cause I'm a Marine and a Vietnam vet. The Marine Corps only provides luberplate from the armory to grease our M-14 rifles. Since I'm a reloader I've pulled down a lot of military surplus .30-06 rounds. Just about every m2 ball cartridge had a 150 grain flat base or boat tail projectile over 47.5 grains of IMR 4895 short cut or long cut powder. I weighed every projectile and powder charge. I've never even seen any 1906 rounds. I did pull down some M1 ball and they weighed 162 grains over 48 grains of IMR 4895 long cut. My scales have been calibrated with standard weight sets for reloading. I use the calibrating weights before every reloading session to ensure the scales are correct. You go ahead and shoot that commercial ammo in YOUR M1 Garand. I'll stick to my hand loading for the M1 Garand and M2 ball cartridges. I don't want my friends' M1's with bent op rods.
Is it just me but maybe you’re getting overall high velocity because your M1 Garand’s barrel is perhaps next to mint? Barrel with worn or partially worn rifling are said to generate lower velocities.. can you prove or refute that?
Most experts warn against commercial .30-06 loads in the M1, claiming excessive op-rod stresses. Common remedies are specifically designed gas plugs that meter some of the excess gas from the gas cylinder upon firing or simply removing the gas plug to vent gas and manually manipulating the op-rod between shots. If you value your M1 as much as I do, stick to ammo that replicates M2 Ball.
To add the above, FYI, the very brief impulse of high-pressure gas is just enough to give the gas-piston-op-rod unit an inertial push to the rear, but it comes down to how much is too much of a push and how will the op-rod handle the stress. The M1 receiver can handle the chamber pressure. Also, semi-automatics with free-floating firing pins such as the M1 are sensitive to 'high primer' situations that can result in 'out of battery' slam fires where as most commercial 'hunting' ammo is tailored more to bolt-action systems, if the primer is seated flush rather than at least .006" below flush, I would definitely NOT chance it, whether shooting hunting ammo or any round in your rifle.. I always hand-loaded for my M1 and followed Jerry Kuhnhausen's opinion and expertise on the subject.
I held off watching this video because it was blasphemy. But, I watched it eventually. It did answer some of my musings of stockpiles of M1 ammo. I guess all I can say is, if guys are still worried about shooting non-M2 ammo, then I suggest getting a different gas plug or just taking it out altogether and cycling the bolt manually. But I really don't see a reason to have to do that other than being worrisome. I, for one, am relieved to know that all the hype that had built up over the years has finally been dispelled. (I did see a video of an M1 Garand blown up by shooting "M1 Garand ammo" in it from PPU, i.e. M2 spec.)
My opinion, I think from what I've read, the m1906 round was the culprit for blowing up " low serial number 1903s" at the 1920s National matches .they were dipping the ammo in grease thinking it would help with fowling. Wonder if that followed into the Garand, makes sense to deplete old stocks first.
@@themilsurpguy8758 stock plugs are about 15$ and ported are 40$. and i need to do about 8 of them. just wondered if anybody has attempted it? id rather put my money in brass and powder.
My M1 is in 308 win , I shoot most of the time with a 147 gr military style 7.62 like ggg but for hunting I have other brand like : _Hornady American 165 gr 2700 fps _sellie bellot 180 gr spce 2400 fps _geco 170gr 2590fps What fo you think to use these just a few time for hunting with a good condition M1 ?? Thanks for your work . It would be Nice to see a gentleman debat about this with you and Ian
You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about the Garand. My question is do you have an extra power recoil spring in that rifle? Many of your viewers are probably shooting rifles with old worn springs. I think the Garand Collector's Assoc said the pressures should be in the 50,000 psi category whereas a lot of the commercial ammo is loaded to 60,000 psi. Also, the CMP issued a warning about shooting bullets over 173 grs. The two areas of concern are the Op rod which you pointed out and the other is the bolt slamming into the rear of the receiver. You can always replace an op rod, but not the receiver. Just saying!
So what Ammo is NOT safe to shoot? I assume as long as the 3006 commercial ammo has a velocity of 2800 fps or less, and a 150 gr bullet .......it is safe.........is that correct?
That was great info. I inherited a m1 garand when my father passed its in beautiful condition. I got to shoot it a lot growing up havent used or tried in yrs. I Remer hearing that using modern ammo would destroy the unit
If we assume an average of 24fps for the milspec stuff, and 27fps for the commercial loads, you're talking an increase of 26% in bolt energy. We're also assuming that the LC72 and TW53 isn't too hard damaging oprods over the long term.
it's actually 12.5% increase and yes LC72 and TW53 and HXP 69 are all garand safe... From HXP 69 to the top commercial ammo the percentage difference is only a 1.2% change...
Wow all the comments of people basically saying oh thats great I was so worried im glad its safe. Well let me say these are close to 100 year old rifles, the gas system is effected, bent Op rods have been reported in huge numbers, MODERN manufacturers make ammo specific for garand. Its not that dangerous is what this guy states, its only a little hotter, why worry about it, have the gun checked out, NEW springs are needed! Etc etc. Come on are all you guys who are sooooo happy that its a myth are YOU really putting new springs and doing ALL of the checks required to shoot that old garand? Or are you lazy asses just hearing what you want to hear? So here's my point. It may not be DANGEROUS but your. garand will not be the same, fire the same, I have even had stocks crack because of modern higher ammo. So all you gleefully happy campers go on go for it!!!! Ignore all the reports and old timers. Ate their some garand that can handle it yes! But is it yours? without doing all the right stuff to it like this guy has.
Valid point. One worth amplifying... The tests were done in a garand thats in spec and properly greased and with good springs etc. A beater thats got short or broken springs...bone dry will have issues with ANY ammo. If your car is a beater...good chance your firearms as well...
Commercial ammo has soft primers seated level with the case head and if the firing pin dents the primer as the bolt closes and before the bolt locks up this could cause an out of battery explosion. That's why you should only use military hard primers seated below the head of the case so the firing pin can't set off the primer before the bolt locks up completely.
Thank you! Every other test I have seen from "experts" they are shooting the rifle dry, And have no idea what they are talking about, I guess "commercial" ammo for M1 Carbines is unsafe as well, I will have to wait from the expert from forgotten ponytails to tell me
@@themilsurpguy8758 thanks for taking the time to film the video. Sorry about the people, like Jason, who feel entitled to information without taking the time to actually learn about it 🍻
I suggest that people would believe this video more if you had some manufacture reps putting their companies money/liability on the line AND some engineering PhDs explaining what the limits of the Garand are and how commercial ammo is within the limits of the M1 Garand. You just don't have enough or really any credibility in a hoodie without any credentials proving that you know what your saying is correct.
@@themilsurpguy8758 Classic response that just proves my point. I stand by my statement 100%. you don't have any proof that you know what your talking about. Prove me wrong
You are Over thanking all of this way to much,, And being Dramatic,,, So don't shoot this gun with that round,, Well It might be okay,, But just in case,, you can shoot it but only with this round but not that round unless you do this,, But if you do this then you can use that round,, Be careful you never know,, This gun should be okay but don't know about that gun these are very delicate 30-06's,,, Hmmm only if you do this you might be alright or maybe not,,, These rifle's are very fragile, So you have to do all of this explicitly right with this 30-06,,, Because if your a little off with that round then that's it, you might as well get another rifle and try it all over again.. Okay make seance to me I got it now..
Your test is featured in the latest Garand collectors association magazine, which further disproves the myth of not being able to shoot commercial ammo, well done!
Thanks Sam...and for the record I don't think you did any of those shootings...
@@themilsurpguy8758 LMBO
Thanx for doing the testing for us... Back in 1989 I picked up a Garand for my Dad (Korean War vet) ... this was his deer rifle until ~ 2015 when he gave up hunting... Dad fed it a diet of Remington 180gr high velocity soft points ~200 rounds of this down the barrel in the time he had the rifle... The Garand is now in my vault and the op rod is fine and functional. Dad of course knew very well how to maintain the rifle ... you might say it was drilled into him...
I bought one for my Dad as well who was also a Korean War Vet .
His eyes about popped out of his head when I gave it to him . Standing in my living room he took and and started doing drills with it like he had done it yesterday . Sadly he passed in 2020 and now sets in my safe with a couple other Garand’s .
Four years on and to this newbie your video is still relevant. I've heard both sides of the argument.
47.5 grains of 4895 with a 168 gr Sierra Match. Used this in competition for years.
I use 43gr of Imr or hodge 4895 for a 150 fmjbt for over 30 years. I never had a problem . 168 match load 45.5 gr of h 4895 just perfect .
I had been thinking about this for a few years and im glad to seem someone else who believes what i do and has actually taken the time to test the theory.
This is why I don’t rely on gun forums to get my information. Forums are full of guys who do nothing but repeat what someone else told like its gospel. All to make themselves look like they know everything.
You make valid points, I purchased the garandgear.com ported gas plug which is supposed to let you shoot anything out of your M1. So far it has worked well for me. I spent the $40 on the plug "just in case". I'd hate to turn this piece of history into a paper weight. However handsome a paper weight it might be. I agree with your logic, but would still rather be cautious. Thank you for your video.
From my experience, a lot of “safety” information we see now is for legal reasons, as opposed to actual safety. Thank you for this testing. My wife gave me a “new” M1 Garand from CMP last Christmas, and an adjustable gas plug at the same time. I didn’t know any better. I do enjoy the ability to tune it, but I don’t believe it was necessary.
Thanks for the video. I have run modern commercial, hand loads (never exceeded book values for max loading), steel case, and milspec ammo in 3 different Garands. I have used the low pressure gas plug from Garand gear and the Shuster adjustable plug. I have never had a malfunction related to low or high power ammo and I’ve never had a bent oprod.
I suspect that low power ammo and extremely cold temps could combine to cause a short stroke type of failure when running the low pressure gas plug, but I haven’t seen it happen yet. Coldest temps have been in the teens F. I have tested other firearms down to -14 F, and can tell you that you will start to see problems in lots of firearms at those temps (Beretta 92 is the most disappointing in my stable).
My solution is to run the Garand Gear low pressure plug, shoot whatever ammo I want to, and keep the stock plug in the stock so that I can put it back in if I ever encounter cold weather induced short stroke failures.
Its not a "plug" it's actually a gas cylinder lock screw. There is still no reason to swap out original parts that work perfectly for aftermarket items that separate you from your money.
What’s it cost to replace a bent op-rod? I’ve had no malfunctions.
@@caseybrown5183 About a hundo... but if your rifle is properly greased and has a good oprod spring in it...you shouldn't have any worries Providing it wasn't bent by some yahoo while it was still in service.
I just bought an M1 from CMP and while I was looking into the rifle on other videos, I was so worried that I would have to buy only m2 ball and buy an updated gas port but this video just put me at ease. Thanks
I’ve been shooting commercial ammo in mine for 20 years
I enjoyed the video. I very seldom shoot mine anymore but have recently taken her out for a spin and remembered how much I enjoy it. I always understood the original loading of the ammo for the 1903 was loaded down because of the Mauser action, but this clears up a lot of myth
Sir, nicely done work on the article in the latest "GCA Journal". The issue is and always will be the relative burn rate of the smokeless powder used in the M1 rifle. Decades ago the "American Rifleman Magazine" technical writers wrote "use NO powder slower than 4320 in the Garand". The reason being that slow powder granules were blown into the gas cylinder and burned there
creating more pressure increasing op rod speed and damaged the rear face of the bolt and the exposed tang of the firing pin upon striking the heel of the receiver. Wish I could cite volume/issue
but I cannot. I discarded boxes of the "Rifleman" when I moved many years ago.
Hey MG: Very interesting, thanks. I reload my ammo for my M1 rifle. One factor you left out of your experiement, powder burn rate. As I understand it, the US Army settled on IMR 4895 for its M2 cartridge. That's a relatively fast powder compared to others used in commercial ammo. The slower the powder's burn rate, the higher the port pressure. Among your vary large sample, that sort of averages our and op rod speed is mostly proportional to bullet velocity. - Z
The didn't settle on 4895 at all. 4895 didn't get loaded in ammo until around 1944. The claim 4895 was "designed for" or it "the original garand powder" are all false. There were several different types of powder loaded in the military 30cal ammo.
The port pressures from milsurp ammo are very similar to commercial ammo presssures. Commercial ammo is safe in a properly working garand.
basicly I had a brand new m1 garand 1942 receiver devil dog shooting team rifle I didnt know about the ammo thing
I fired 300 rounds of winchester 180 grain soft points and and 220 gran remington .
grenade launcher gas plug locked open and saved the gun
the op rod had 2 sharp bends in it grinding into both sides
i straitened it works fine
the Garand exploded many bolts before they got it dialed in .
the 30 06 is in fact a 300 magnum
buy the Garand gear gas plug if your going to shoot full power rounds
None of what you said was coherent.
@@jakewesley3318 comercial hunting rounds will bend your oprod stupid
@alonzahanks1182 how is he stupid if ur the idiot shooting 220 grain ammo
Very good information. Good history of round and rifle. This needs to be put out more. I am sure the some of the reasons the M1 Garands fail is lack of maintenance, lack of oiling/greasing, and some parts are very old. These rifles are 70 to 60 years old. When was the last time anyone saw a 70 or 60 year old item work as well as it did when it was new? When things get old some parts wear out and need replaced.
With the rifle having its gas port VERY close to the muzzle and te Op-rod being fairly lightweight, the pressure curve at the port would be a narrow spike. The port gas acts pretty much like a hammer..The trick with the op-rod spring is that it is always under compression, moving or at rest.The idea is to NOT run it into "spring-bind" territory, BUT it does slow the initial rearward speed of the bolt and rod. This is VITAL as a "tired" or otherwise "out of spec" spring will result in the bolt hitting the rear of the receiver with excessive violence. . This ultimately results in CRACKED rear sections of the receiver. A couple of new springs is a lot simpler to deal with than the paperwork to "write-off" a serial-numbered receiver. When I was servicing M-60 MGs, it was NORMAL practice to replace EVERY coil spring on an annual basis. Even the tiny ones that drive the pressure levers in the feed cover AND the extractor and ejector springs. These are VERY prone tot water ingress and subsequent corrosion. Rust KILLS springs. When in doubt, swap 'em out!
This is why the ONLY reference for a "stock' Garand M-1 is the original service-issue workshop manual(s). Armourers were (are!) required to do thorough component inspections, including measuring the "relaxed" length of springs and then, using carefully-calibrated equipment, measure the "load" required to haul a spring, like the op-rod spring, through its nominal travel. There is a LOT more to "gun-plumbing" than a quick "visual" and a squirt of oil.
The oprod spring has very little compression on it at rest. But YES in spec springs are KEY!
Thanks. I always thought it was suspect that a Garand couldn’t handle anything WWII ammo put on it.
Very smart man even siting Boyle's law. Good review and very informative
Yea, I've shot a lot of 3006 rounds commercial grade, never any problems.
you did a lot of work - thanks
Thanks for the spreadsheet.
My grandpa served in Germany in WW2 and he said that they used ap almost exclusively as apposed to ball for turning cover into swiss cheese 😊
Thanks man for testing this
I believe the one factor that no one has talked about is chamber and gas port pressure. I do not think the bolt speed is the indicator that determines whether a certain load is safe.
The damage to the oprod, regardless of bolt speed, happens with a slow burning powder, which is generally how commercial ammo gets its higher velocity, when the case in the chamber, due to high pressure, is still adhering to the chamber wall while the gas port pressure is trying to force the bolt open, and the case is trying to NOT move. This is when the oprod has to bend, perhaps permanently.
The faster burning powders such as IMR 4895 and 4064 were the wartime powders, in addition to a ball powder which I don't know the modern equivalent. COTW lists this info in the back of that book.
I have witnessed M1A rifles pull the rims off cases with a load that was safe, but using a slow burning powder meant the case in the chamber was not yet ready to release!
The commercial ammo that is advertised as acceptable for the M1 most likely has the correct burning rate powder and that's why it works.
I do think bolt speed is useful info but it doesn't tell the complete story.
As far as Herr Cobra is concerned, I agree with him that non-M2 or M72 ammo, or equivalent, will NOT be shot in my M1's for the above reasons.
I do not think InRange TV or the milsurp guy are painting a complete and accurate picture.
What dictates bolt/oprod speed? "Port pressure"... thats why oprod velocity is a valid thing to look at.
The oprod doesn't move until the bullet is out the barrel and the casing is no longer pressurized against the chamber walls.
I'm sorry you don't understand how this works.
ww2 loads were at 50k psi and modern 30-06 loads are at 60k psi.
@@hk93shooter that is false...the WW2 loads are meandered in CUP..... modern is in pizeo PSI. tested the same they are equal...
I think there are too many shooters and reloaders that don't understand the difference between C.U.P. and P.S.I. The older C.U.P. numbers are always smaller than the P.S.I. equivalent. There are very involved papers on correlation and conversion but it's almost algebra. Luckily there are charts listing cartridges showing both numbers in columns. Best to search for those and you'll see sometimes the numbers are very close but mostly there's a sizeable spread. Long story short, confirm the measurement system used to generate a pressure value.
Thanks very much for a well done video with some actual scientific testing. Peace from Canada 🇨🇦
M1 Garand forms after watching this video “this blasphemy”
Really very interested in your testing. Definitly gunna bring this spreadsheet up with some of my friends who shoot M1s as well. Ive always bought M1/M2 ball cus its always been the cheapest but its nice to know if im in a pinch I can just grab any old box of Ought six. Im curious to know if the Saturn type gas plug might affect pressure at all, I doubt it would but still. Would love to see a video on an M1 shooting steel case. Ive tried it a few times and my rifle will not work right with it.
You need a high-speed camera with milliseconds being recorded as the video plays to actually measure bolt speed.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. So tired of seeing M1 Garand "experts" who have either never owned the rifle or just got one from CMP make dozens of videos stating as an absolute fact that you can only shoot 150 gr. M2 ball or you'll destroy the op rod.
Dude people who say that never read the manual CMP puts with the gun. Mine said up to 180gr is safe to use in the M1. My m1 was part of the Special line where they rebuilt the entire gun the barrel on mine was dated 2014 and the stock was marked with the cmp stamp just below the receiver. CMP knows M1s better than anyone and if they side 180g is fine to use I’d take their word for it
Thanks for demystifying! I've been told, back in the day, that Garands were intentionally overgassed to ensure reliable function. In your view, is there benefit to an adjustable gas system (e.g. Schuster Mfg.) say, to prolong the service life?
Great video, complete with in depth research, chart, and useful info-
Thanks and Semper Fi!
I am going to order a new spring before I do any more shoot of my m1. Thanks much
Great information!
That was great and really put me at ease. Thank you sir!
Thank you for this video. Very helpful!
Great video! Love the info. There are a few manufacturers out there that advertise 30.06 made for M1 Garand. Problem is that none of those are soft point. FMJ rifle ammo isn’t allowed at any outdoor ranges near me in North Texas. You have a suggestion?
Go to B-Tactical near Greenville, I shoot FMJ 30-06 out of my Garand all the time there.
Why don’t they allow FMJ ammo?
@@dangerousfreedom4965 it tears up the dirt backstop.
I shoot FMJ all the time with my Mosin at Hot Wells Shooting Range (an outdoor range) in Cypress, Texas. They've never given me trouble for it.
Dude, the man just posted scientific evidence that you can shoot commercial ammo in your rifle. Shoot what you want to hunt with, or practice with, etc.
IMR 4064, 46 grains. Winchester Cases 186.9 to 187.1 grains. Federal primers. Speer 168 Grain match bullets. MV of 2745 approximately.
I’ve seen the data sheet for the Garand. It is rated for any round that generates less then 50,000 psi.
not 50,000 psi...but 50,000 CUP which is basically 60,180psi
@@themilsurpguy8758 Ah. Thank you for the correction.
@@themilsurpguy8758what is CUP and how do you check different ammunition to see what pressures they generate?
50,000 CUP which is a little over 60,000 psi. Don’t confuse the two.
Very interesting! Great video.
My new spring is going on my baby. IHC all parts matching 1954.
Vid needs more likes
TMG did some great research and his descriptions of US martial 30-06 ammo is spot on. He also did a great job setting up his rifle properly (Orion7 spring, greased according to manual, cylinder and gas plug per technical manual). His tests were run pretty well. I’d say well enough to be meaningful to draw some conclusions from. But they have the exact same limitations of the tests done by InRangeTV: There’s no clock, so they’re trusting calculations based on the claimed frame-rate of the camera, and there’s no Piezo-Electric sensor at the gas port to measure the port pressure. Those two things are needed to be statistically accurate.
The point where I throw a flag on TMG is his conclusions. He said Springfield Armory says the max speed for the op-rod is 26 feet per second. (I’d like to know the source for that, btw - Not doubting TMG, just want to document the info which was new to me.) 26 x 12 = 312; so, the MAX op-rod speed to be within Springfield Armory specifications is 312 Inches Per Second.
The problem with TMG’s conclusions is he never set that as his max and goes on to say ammo (commercial, HXP, etc.) with higher op-rod speeds is fine, OK, no problem. 329, 333, 325, and others on that spreadsheet which are above 312 are not safe to shoot in a properly set up Garand with good barrel, proper lube, correct cylinder and plug! He is falling for the myth himself. He is believing because “M2 Ball is safe/good, and HXP M2 is 329 inch-per-second, that all ammo up to that is safe.”
The truth is, the Greeks weren’t part of the design team for the Garand. They also didn’t set up or run the Ammunition plants, such as Frankford Arsenal. Of course they built out-of-spec ammo and called it M2 ball! Same thing happened during WWII. St.Louis, Des Moines, Denver, and all of the rapidly set up and manned ammunition plants had teething troubles and made ammo of varying quality. There was a war on for goodness sakes! Niceties of 5 inch per second bolt speed be damned!
The bolt speed of 312 inches per second should be viewed the same as a maximum load in a reloading handbook. It’s not to be exceeded without potential risk at an unknown point beyond the limit. Can you do it? Sure. Is it safe? Maybe; maybe not. (In the context of the Garand “safe” means not damaging your op-rod.)
The proper conclusion from this test is exactly that NOT all ammunition is appropriate for the Garand. Bolt speeds of 280 to 300 inches per second are probably ideal. You want reliable cycling and bolt lock-back without stressing the op-rod. Load accordingly and pick ammo wisely.
Thanks for the comment... I did address the 26fps oprod speed in the description above and clarified my remarks that I said in the video.
"PS: The comment about the 26fps oprod velocity was from Scott Duff, noted garand expert. In further conversation with him the number was taken from a picture showing some sort of test and that velocity. There was no context in it and he doesn't have that original document anymore. So to say 26fps is the "max" oprod velocity would not be correct until more info surfaces that shows Springfield Armory actually ..so my comment saying it was the "max" is my error in the video."
Gas port/chamber/cylinder pressure testing has already been done with some follow up testing to be concluded shortly. But in short the numbers from that testing further confirm my videos conclusions.
More details in the near future...stay tuned..
Good info, thanks
I have Chrono’d HXP and most of it runs 2840fps. It is a little warm. Good to know what the oprod speed is.👍
The GCA has your video in their magazine! I guess I can take my gas relief off the end of my gas cylinder!
I hope you're joking. LoL
@@HerrCobra_762 No joke, it was in their magazine, but I left on the relief
@@undeadbrosm41a39 I'd hope so. Ammo above M2 spec will slowly damage the rifle. There's a great video on InRangeTV about it.
@@HerrCobra_762 Anything 150gr and lower should be pretty safe though. But I won't take any chances with mine
@@HerrCobra_762 you need to do more research as you don't seem to know much about the garand either.
First off. Outstanding video! Do you think it’s a good idea for the average garand owner (someone that doesn’t check the spec of everything) to use Garand specific loads like the ones made by PPU or S&B because if their spring is slightly light from age that 27fps could become 30fps vs PPU going from 24fps to 27fps? Just curious on your thoughts on it.
Regardless of if this is “myth” or not, I still spend $40 for the Garand Gear company’s ported Gas plug. It reduces gas pressure in the gas cylinder (only, and NOT chamber pressures) by 30%. So if I were to shoot something really “hot” (which I don’t), it “might” protect the gun’s op-Rod and I have NOTHING to lose. If it’s all just myth, We’ll then I still haven’t hurt anything by installing it on my two Garands. I don’t like anything above SAAMI pressures anyways and I NEVER shoot +P nor +P+ ammo in any of my guns. I think that by slightly reducing pressure in the gas chamber, it gives the Garand a little “break” and might prolong the life of the gun long after I die and pass the gun down to my son. I’ve been using Garand Gear’s ported has plug for about three years and it’s NEVER caused any malfunction in my two Garands. I love the device.
By the way, I took one of my M1 Garands deer hunting f for the first time and scored me a nice 3x2 mulie! WINNING!
I agree with you. Nice job on getting a mulie with it!! I want to take my garand out west this fall.
Smart man. I came to the same conclusion. I use the Garand gear plug when I shoot "mill spec" ammo and the Schuster for even spicier stuff. I've heard that a lot of modern 30-06 that says for m1 Garand is not true m2 ball spec and a bit hotter like PPU for example and I worry that some surplus 30-06 might not have been stored properly and might suffer from Turkish 8mm Mauser syndrome.
@@dancortes3062 Yeah I recently just had delivered the Schuster adjustable plug several days ago. I thought it is probably better than the Garand Gear one. So,I’ll be installing the Schuster and “tuning” it at the next range session. It’s cheap insurance. I’m also ordering two for my M1-A’s as well.
@@colt10mmsecurity68 Nice, it's a good investment. Your op rods will thank you.
Not just the op rod but preventing the bolt from slamming the receiver heel and cracking it. That's with heavier than spec. or Xtra power ammo, those war horses are worth a little TLC as historical pieces.
Why was the Round called "BALL"?
Carry over term from the days of using musket ball as standard ammo. Today any FMJ ammo can be called ball interchangeably with FMJ, especially any military or former military cartridge.
Also distinguished "regular" projectiles from 'armor-piercing', ' incendiary', 'frangible', etc. in later years.
👍🏻
How i heard about the whole "modern ammo is dangerous" myth actually wasnt for the m1 garand. It was about a 1893 7mm spanish mauser. My father picked one up and I got curious about the history. About a couple clicks later. I end up reading a few comments from a handful of different guys stating that shooting "modern ammo" is bad/dangerous for that gun. I immediately took that with a grain of salt. Now i hear it about the m1? My father has a 1895ish lever action and we both have shot modern ammo through that. Never had an issue. So is every vintage gun gonna have that issues because some idiot cant figure things out for him self? Whats next the mosin nagant? Oh thats right the hex mosin is "better in accuracy". People are now just debunking the type 38 arisaka isnt trash. Im surprised the forgotten weapons dude just ate the bad info for a meal and regurgitated it. Im still gonna read into it all so I can debunk the dummies.
I don’t remember anything said.
Thank you. Fantastic "Mith Busting" science. I have the same question another did: What are the color designations (for us slowpokes) in the spread sheet?
green was "commercial" ammo, the dark yellow was "test handloads" and white is "milsurp" loads
@@themilsurpguy8758 Thank you. I should have figured that out......
In the referenced ammunition chart what are the color key codes (Green, Yellow and none)?
THANK YOU for the research! Whwew can i get a copy of the chart you show. it is only on the screen for a second or two. I enjoy shooting my Garand
the link to the spreadsheet is in the description box above...
FULL load military 30-06 can be fired in the Garand. BUT..research the WHY Garand ammo was made vs full load ammo. It had something to do with the operation of the gases. True Garand ammo had a milder load. NOTE.....M1 BALL......and M2 BALL...Research the reason.
We know an old man who used to shoot M1 Garands at matches and he always said that shooting commercial ammo was fine for the rifle.
That was very good info! I have been thinking about buying a M1 garand but was worrying about ammo. So you're thinking that most of the commercial Most between 150 and 165 is safe? I'm really interested in being able to shoot the Nosler partitions in 150 + 165 at 3000 and 2840. Thanks I appreciate it
@@cole4406 Why would you stay at the 150 2750 mark? That is just under M2 spec and completely ignores AP and MATCH for example.
@@cole4406 maybe..we don't know that...the fact is the square cut was a poor design from the beginning.
I know the tachometer on my truck has a red line but if i rev the engine past it it most likely will not blow up but if i do it enough it probably will ! They add a red line for a reason.
What exactly is the "red line" on the garand?
Great work!
Did you use luberplate grease? That's the recommended high temp grease for any military surplus rifle. I know 'cause I'm a Marine and a Vietnam vet. The Marine Corps only provides luberplate from the armory to grease our M-14 rifles. Since I'm a reloader I've pulled down a lot of military surplus .30-06 rounds. Just about every m2 ball cartridge had a 150 grain flat base or boat tail projectile over 47.5 grains of IMR 4895 short cut or long cut powder. I weighed every projectile and powder charge. I've never even seen any 1906 rounds. I did pull down some M1 ball and they weighed 162 grains over 48 grains of IMR 4895 long cut. My scales have been calibrated with standard weight sets for reloading. I use the calibrating weights before every reloading session to ensure the scales are correct. You go ahead and shoot that commercial ammo in YOUR M1 Garand. I'll stick to my hand loading for the M1 Garand and M2 ball cartridges. I don't want my friends' M1's with bent op rods.
How many bent ops rods have you actually seen?
@@jingq2 I've never seen but one bent op rod. That was on a buddy's M1 pre war and the op rod spring came out in several different pieces.
I found 3 rounds at a antique store , pulled one down , balloon primer and a odd grey gun powder , bullet was the 1906 style
They ALL have bent op rods. They're designed that way from the factory. Otherwise they won't function on the rifle.
Is it just me but maybe you’re getting overall high velocity because your M1 Garand’s barrel is perhaps next to mint?
Barrel with worn or partially worn rifling are said to generate lower velocities.. can you prove or refute that?
If the barrel is next to "mint" then a worn barrel could create lower velocities. Which would be less dangerous.
"You'll shoot your Eye out Kid"
At 2:11 I think You meant "At the end of world war 1"....otherwise an excellent and informative video!
If a 30-06 is 180grain the the velocity is 2910fps or 180 grain and velocity is 2790fps its good to go in a well greesesed up m1 rifle?
Most experts warn against commercial .30-06 loads in the M1, claiming excessive op-rod stresses. Common remedies are specifically designed gas plugs that meter some of the excess gas from the gas cylinder upon firing or simply removing the gas plug to vent gas and manually manipulating the op-rod between shots. If you value your M1 as much as I do, stick to ammo that replicates M2 Ball.
To add the above, FYI, the very brief impulse of high-pressure gas is just enough to give the gas-piston-op-rod unit an inertial push to the rear, but it comes down to how much is too much of a push and how will the op-rod handle the stress. The M1 receiver can handle the chamber pressure. Also, semi-automatics with free-floating firing pins such as the M1 are sensitive to 'high primer' situations that can result in 'out of battery' slam fires where as most commercial 'hunting' ammo is tailored more to bolt-action systems, if the primer is seated flush rather than at least .006" below flush, I would definitely NOT chance it, whether shooting hunting ammo or any round in your rifle.. I always hand-loaded for my M1 and followed Jerry Kuhnhausen's opinion and expertise on the subject.
I had no issue with Federal 180 grain ammo. Federal 165 grain I had a double shot. ???
Really interesting and I accept the conclusion but I'm still afraid hahahaha year of believing in the myth is hard to override
Boyle’s law actually states that pressure of a gas tends to increase as the volume of the container decreases.
So Winchester 150gr powerpoints will work? Like as long as it has similar specs as m2 ball in regards to FPS and bolt speed.
You need to get the M2 ball "spec" out of your head. The garand is not limited to "M2 ball" type ammo in any way shape or form.
The Milsurp Guy yeah earlier this morning bought 500 rounds of 150 grain core lokt. Shot a few rounds to test and feels good.
Great video
I held off watching this video because it was blasphemy. But, I watched it eventually. It did answer some of my musings of stockpiles of M1 ammo. I guess all I can say is, if guys are still worried about shooting non-M2 ammo, then I suggest getting a different gas plug or just taking it out altogether and cycling the bolt manually. But I really don't see a reason to have to do that other than being worrisome. I, for one, am relieved to know that all the hype that had built up over the years has finally been dispelled. (I did see a video of an M1 Garand blown up by shooting "M1 Garand ammo" in it from PPU, i.e. M2 spec.)
@Golden Eagle Good to hear.
@Golden Eagle As stated above...you still have a problem...the garand gear plug didn't "fix" it.
@HOLYFEAR96 That's because the M1 was designed to only shoot M2 Ball. Ha ha.
My opinion, I think from what I've read, the m1906 round was the culprit for blowing up " low serial number 1903s" at the 1920s National matches .they were dipping the ammo in grease thinking it would help with fowling. Wonder if that followed into the Garand, makes sense to deplete old stocks first.
I've read the the "low-number" M1903 rifles suffered from receiver 'heat-treat' issues making them too brittle.
@@peghead
Same
I've heard both sides and whether it's a gimmick or not is irrelevant to me. $40 for an adjustable gas plug is cheap peace of mind.
facts override feelings all the time.
So what Ammo should I be using in my M1?
Either Seller and Belloit or Greek military ammo
pretty much any commercial ammo is fine as long as your rifle is properly lubed and the springs are in spec.
Read Garand commercial ammo testing, got a 17min lecture. Good but... not a test.
you should look at the data presented in this and the part 2 video.
Same test as others have done.
How about Winchester XP 150 gr at 2920
perfectly fine!
@@themilsurpguy8758 thanks I appreciate it I also have some Remington core lock 150 I am hesitant on
@@goober3393 is the rifle properly greased? Is the oprod spring at least 19.5" long?
If so...go shoot...enjoy!
i know they sell 'ported' and 'adjustable' gas plugs. is it possible to drill out a stock plug with a lathe or drill press?
Might I ask..."why?"
@@themilsurpguy8758 stock plugs are about 15$ and ported are 40$. and i need to do about 8 of them. just wondered if anybody has attempted it? id rather put my money in brass and powder.
i appreciate you taking the time to do this test. there is nothing like a m1.
@@hk93shooter Why do you need 8 of them?
i have 2 on order, my uncle's. my wifes uncle. and a couple friends.
Link to spreadsheat not functional, I would love to see the data that you came up with..
right click "open in new tab" is working for me...
Thanks, wouldn't let me access from a work computer
My M1 is in 308 win , I shoot most of the time with a 147 gr military style 7.62 like ggg but for hunting I have other brand like :
_Hornady American 165 gr 2700 fps
_sellie bellot 180 gr spce 2400 fps
_geco 170gr 2590fps
What fo you think to use these just a few time for hunting with a good condition M1 ??
Thanks for your work .
It would be Nice to see a gentleman debat about this with you and Ian
Any of those are fine for the garand.
I don't think he would accept since he can't admit he made a mistake about his video being incorrect.
Do you reload your own brass with that GGG or you buy it?
@@Hansson333 yes I do reload them. Just need a little work on the primer bedding
@@themilsurpguy8758 thanks from France
@@clem74716 You want to share what powder and how much you use?
I don't know either way but I do know that 40 bucks for a grand gear gas plug is money well spent for pice of mind.
I work off of facts not feelings.
Agreed. I use M2 ball ammo, but have one installed for my back-up HV ammo if i need it.
You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about the Garand. My question is do you have an extra power recoil spring in that rifle? Many of your viewers are probably shooting rifles with old worn springs. I think the Garand Collector's Assoc said the pressures should be in the 50,000 psi category whereas a lot of the commercial ammo is loaded to 60,000 psi. Also, the CMP issued a warning about shooting bullets over 173 grs. The two areas of concern are the Op rod which you pointed out and the other is the bolt slamming into the rear of the receiver. You can always replace an op rod, but not the receiver. Just saying!
CMP says 50,000 CUP which is a little over 60,000 psi. This is SAMMI spec so manufacturers don’t lose over that.
So what Ammo is NOT safe to shoot? I assume as long as the 3006 commercial ammo has a velocity of 2800 fps or less, and a 150 gr bullet .......it is safe.........is that correct?
John Schum I would just get an adjustable gas plug from garand gear or are few that let you adjust a little more to release those gases slowing op rod
yeah..it's not needed.
That was great info. I inherited a m1 garand when my father passed its in beautiful condition. I got to shoot it a lot growing up havent used or tried in yrs. I Remer hearing that using modern ammo would destroy the unit
If we assume an average of 24fps for the milspec stuff, and 27fps for the commercial loads, you're talking an increase of 26% in bolt energy.
We're also assuming that the LC72 and TW53 isn't too hard damaging oprods over the long term.
it's actually 12.5% increase and yes LC72 and TW53 and HXP 69 are all garand safe...
From HXP 69 to the top commercial ammo the percentage difference is only a 1.2% change...
The Milsurp Guy I may have bad mathed, I used 0.5mv^2 for energy.
Wow all the comments of people basically saying oh thats great I was so worried im glad its safe. Well let me say these are close to 100 year old rifles, the gas system is effected, bent Op rods have been reported in huge numbers, MODERN manufacturers make ammo specific for garand.
Its not that dangerous is what this guy states, its only a little hotter, why worry about it, have the gun checked out, NEW springs are needed! Etc etc.
Come on are all you guys who are sooooo happy that its a myth are YOU really putting new springs and doing ALL of the checks required to shoot that old garand? Or are you lazy asses just hearing what you want to hear?
So here's my point. It may not be DANGEROUS but your. garand will not be the same, fire the same, I have even had stocks crack because of modern higher ammo. So all you gleefully happy campers go on go for it!!!! Ignore all the reports and old timers. Ate their some garand that can handle it yes! But is it yours? without doing all the right stuff to it like this guy has.
Valid point. One worth amplifying...
The tests were done in a garand thats in spec and properly greased and with good springs etc.
A beater thats got short or broken springs...bone dry will have issues with ANY ammo.
If your car is a beater...good chance your firearms as well...
Also its worth noting to make sure you have the op rod with the relief cut.
👍
Commercial ammo has soft primers seated level with the case head and if the firing pin dents the primer as the bolt closes and before the bolt locks up this could cause an out of battery explosion. That's why you should only use military hard primers seated below the head of the case so the firing pin can't set off the primer before the bolt locks up completely.
thats incorrect...
My dad has one of these with a large capacity magazine. And it shoots 308
That's an M-14 or an M-1A.
Rickertsred no I don’t think it is
Rickertsred bm59 is also a possibility.
@@Rickertsred the military did convert some m1s to .308 mag loaded
Thank you! Every other test I have seen from "experts" they are shooting the rifle dry, And have no idea what they are talking about, I guess "commercial" ammo for M1 Carbines is unsafe as well, I will have to wait from the expert from forgotten ponytails to tell me
@Golden Eagle You had a problem somewhere else.....the garand gear plug just mitigated an existing problem.
Forgotten Ponytails omg you slayed with that one! I enjoy Gun Jesus' videos but now that nickname will always pop up in my head.
someone summarize all of this. Too much talking not enough table data.
The data spreadsheet is available for download with the results.
the "talking" is giving you the background info...
@@themilsurpguy8758 thanks for taking the time to film the video. Sorry about the people, like Jason, who feel entitled to information without taking the time to actually learn about it
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I suggest that people would believe this video more if you had some manufacture reps putting their companies money/liability on the line AND some engineering PhDs explaining what the limits of the Garand are and how commercial ammo is within the limits of the M1 Garand. You just don't have enough or really any credibility in a hoodie without any credentials proving that you know what your saying is correct.
Hey thanks for the personal attack instead of attacking the message.... I'm sure you've been a great help.
@@themilsurpguy8758 Classic response that just proves my point. I stand by my statement 100%. you don't have any proof that you know what your talking about. Prove me wrong
@@johyuujin3079
the proof is in the video...thanks for watching
You are Over thanking all of this way to much,, And being Dramatic,,, So don't shoot this gun with that round,, Well It might be okay,, But just in case,, you can shoot it but only with this round but not that round unless you do this,, But if you do this then you can use that round,, Be careful you never know,, This gun should be okay but don't know about that gun these are very delicate 30-06's,,, Hmmm only if you do this you might be alright or maybe not,,, These rifle's are very fragile, So you have to do all of this explicitly right with this 30-06,,, Because if your a little off with that round then that's it, you might as well get another rifle and try it all over again.. Okay make seance to me I got it now..
Yeah, but you doesn’t have to call me Johnson!😂😂😂😂very funny!