I think both pushing and the suction hold is important in mewing. What I find is that you should be pushing up with the posterior third of the tongue on the soft palate, while keeping a suction hold with the front 2/3s. What I observe doing the cheesy smile swallow is that the anterior 2/3s raises itself and spreads out, residing on the hard palate, it doesn't really push up with any force. The posterior third really pushes up on the soft palate in a chin tuck. Also I believe this is critical in upswinging the maxilla, while the tongue on the hard palate plays a minor role in upswing, it primarily expands the hard palate. Reason being is I think the mechanism of upswing occurs through the palatoglossus which raises the back of the tongue on the soft palate.
Brilliant idea Ronald. One would think Mewing with MSE would be the best results as compared to the facemask, given that its the most natural in that it hits all the points that genetically shift the positions of the bones. However, the movement of the bones, while this would help in repositioning the bones, wouldn't 'grow' or 'remodel' the bones, one would think. So, while this might lead to a functional improvement, aesthetically it might not achieve the holy grail that I think most of us are looking for, which would be a correction of the skeletal facial structure to be that of one's genetic potential.
Perhaps, but IMO as an adult we need to take whatever marginal improvements we can get. Nothing we can do as adults will result in the perfect outcome we all wish to have, but it's still worth doing. Some gain in oral volume is better than none.
@@JawHacks I agree, but my concern is in the change facial proportions. It's one thing to say that facial proportions improve, which means you get a result that is "closer" to that genetic potential, but not worse than what it was. I'm talking aesthetics, only because ideal aesthetics go hand in hand with functionality, and therefore health. But, I suppose one might be able to get a functional improvement while also getting either an aesthetic downgrade, even if subjective. For example, John Mew has explained how different configurations of craniofacial dystrophy will be perceived subjectively as being more or less pleasing. If someone has a recessed jaw but good cheekbones someone might prefer that over a projected maxilla even if the cheekbones are undeveloped. This much is subjective, though everyone will agree that both recessed jaw and sagging cheekbones doesn't look as good, as well as facial asymmetries. So, the question is, can we improve facial proportions in a distributive way, meaning moving towards all of the elements that make the ideal facial harmonious facial proportions, or, are we forced to maybe trade one for the other i.e. an improvement in maxillary projection and angulation, oral volume, etc, all which provides functional improvement, but might result in something aesthetically less pleasing than what you have before, because, let's say, that upswing of the maxilla due to MSE, facemark and Mewing, won't actually trigger zygomatic growth or remodeling in adults? See the issue? By what John Mew said, by our subjective standards, the face might look "worse" or "better" depending on who is looking at it. Ultimately, what matters most is the patient's opinion here, for obvious reasons. But that's what the issues 'seem' to be given my understanding.
Hmm... If this truly works (mewing when midpalatal suture is open), then why not just continue doing it? When the sutures start fusing back together, just expand a little bit so that they get separated again. This way you could maybe keep at it for 1-3 years. Ofcourse, I don't know what risks this holds, but it just popped up in my head. What's your oppinion on it?
Hello Ronald, thanks for sharing your experiences and efforts. When I was a teenager I had a treatment with a cervical headgear that pushed my maxilla backwards. I have been suffering for many years the consequences of this wrongful approach of retractive orthodontics. It's a long story, and I would only find an explanation after finding out about Orthotropics, and also a website called "Right to Grow", which warns about the dangers of retractive headgear or braces in children and calls for a ban of this practices. To solve that, many orthodontists nowadays tend to lead patients into orthognathic surgery, but I think that is too invasive and should be only the very last resort. I am 41 and I strongly believe in the plasticity of bones, even at an older age. And that's contrary to what many believe. So we have to be thankful to these professionals who work on non-surgical approaches for palatal and maxilla expansion, like dr. Won Mon, Bill Hang and Mike Mew. Your work on the blog and this channel has helped a lot in my research. I'm from Brazil and although there are good doctors in here as well, this awareness of the importance of forward growth and the new paradigm of Orthotropics hasn't landed with full force in here yet. It is still rare and incipient, so we really need people to spread the word. In my case, I will probably try the same approach with MSE (here they call it MARPE) + Facemask, because from everything I saw available that is what makes the most sense. Thanks and keep it up!
Thanks for the write-up. You are on the right track. No other appliance can compare to MSE in results. It really blows open the maxilla. You are on the right track.
What is the max mm you can get with facemask for 27 yo guy? Dentally my upper teeth is a little bit over that lower teeth but skeletally I am still an underbite. I wore an appliance when I was 14 yo.
Keeping the sutures loose may be beneficial to creating more change in the face. Do you have any ideas for how to prolong treatment in order to keep sutures loose as long as possible?
@@american4280 Yes, and I learned that Alt-RAMEC is the name of the technique used to keep the sutures mobile for a longer period so the FM can do its thing
Why not do all three at once?
Lol I think I just might.
I think both pushing and the suction hold is important in mewing. What I find is that you should be pushing up with the posterior third of the tongue on the soft palate, while keeping a suction hold with the front 2/3s. What I observe doing the cheesy smile swallow is that the anterior 2/3s raises itself and spreads out, residing on the hard palate, it doesn't really push up with any force. The posterior third really pushes up on the soft palate in a chin tuck. Also I believe this is critical in upswinging the maxilla, while the tongue on the hard palate plays a minor role in upswing, it primarily expands the hard palate. Reason being is I think the mechanism of upswing occurs through the palatoglossus which raises the back of the tongue on the soft palate.
Great insight, clearly you are a veteran. We all appreciate you sharing your experience.
@@JawHacks im worried facemask push my low jaw back...😣 what do you think? I have tmj
@@Stella-iq2ru if anything it should do the opposite
Brilliant idea Ronald. One would think Mewing with MSE would be the best results as compared to the facemask, given that its the most natural in that it hits all the points that genetically shift the positions of the bones. However, the movement of the bones, while this would help in repositioning the bones, wouldn't 'grow' or 'remodel' the bones, one would think. So, while this might lead to a functional improvement, aesthetically it might not achieve the holy grail that I think most of us are looking for, which would be a correction of the skeletal facial structure to be that of one's genetic potential.
Perhaps, but IMO as an adult we need to take whatever marginal improvements we can get.
Nothing we can do as adults will result in the perfect outcome we all wish to have, but it's still worth doing. Some gain in oral volume is better than none.
@@JawHacks I agree, but my concern is in the change facial proportions. It's one thing to say that facial proportions improve, which means you get a result that is "closer" to that genetic potential, but not worse than what it was. I'm talking aesthetics, only because ideal aesthetics go hand in hand with functionality, and therefore health. But, I suppose one might be able to get a functional improvement while also getting either an aesthetic downgrade, even if subjective. For example, John Mew has explained how different configurations of craniofacial dystrophy will be perceived subjectively as being more or less pleasing. If someone has a recessed jaw but good cheekbones someone might prefer that over a projected maxilla even if the cheekbones are undeveloped. This much is subjective, though everyone will agree that both recessed jaw and sagging cheekbones doesn't look as good, as well as facial asymmetries. So, the question is, can we improve facial proportions in a distributive way, meaning moving towards all of the elements that make the ideal facial harmonious facial proportions, or, are we forced to maybe trade one for the other i.e. an improvement in maxillary projection and angulation, oral volume, etc, all which provides functional improvement, but might result in something aesthetically less pleasing than what you have before, because, let's say, that upswing of the maxilla due to MSE, facemark and Mewing, won't actually trigger zygomatic growth or remodeling in adults? See the issue? By what John Mew said, by our subjective standards, the face might look "worse" or "better" depending on who is looking at it. Ultimately, what matters most is the patient's opinion here, for obvious reasons. But that's what the issues 'seem' to be given my understanding.
Well said. Thanks for the deep analysis.
How many MM can face mask move the maxilla forward
Hmm... If this truly works (mewing when midpalatal suture is open), then why not just continue doing it? When the sutures start fusing back together, just expand a little bit so that they get separated again. This way you could maybe keep at it for 1-3 years. Ofcourse, I don't know what risks this holds, but it just popped up in my head. What's your oppinion on it?
do you know how long it takes, before the suture start to close up again?
Your about to explode on youtube
Ahead of ur time a absolute savior
How are you supposed to mew with the appliance in your mouth? Are you talking about after the removal while the suture has not yet healed?
Hello Ronald, thanks for sharing your experiences and efforts. When I was a teenager I had a treatment with a cervical headgear that pushed my maxilla backwards. I have been suffering for many years the consequences of this wrongful approach of retractive orthodontics. It's a long story, and I would only find an explanation after finding out about Orthotropics, and also a website called "Right to Grow", which warns about the dangers of retractive headgear or braces in children and calls for a ban of this practices.
To solve that, many orthodontists nowadays tend to lead patients into orthognathic surgery, but I think that is too invasive and should be only the very last resort. I am 41 and I strongly believe in the plasticity of bones, even at an older age. And that's contrary to what many believe. So we have to be thankful to these professionals who work on non-surgical approaches for palatal and maxilla expansion, like dr. Won Mon, Bill Hang and Mike Mew.
Your work on the blog and this channel has helped a lot in my research. I'm from Brazil and although there are good doctors in here as well, this awareness of the importance of forward growth and the new paradigm of Orthotropics hasn't landed with full force in here yet. It is still rare and incipient, so we really need people to spread the word.
In my case, I will probably try the same approach with MSE (here they call it MARPE) + Facemask, because from everything I saw available that is what makes the most sense. Thanks and keep it up!
Thanks for the write-up. You are on the right track. No other appliance can compare to MSE in results. It really blows open the maxilla. You are on the right track.
What is the max mm you can get with facemask for 27 yo guy? Dentally my upper teeth is a little bit over that lower teeth but skeletally I am still an underbite. I wore an appliance when I was 14 yo.
Where can I find a doctor who does face mask and mse?
Keeping the sutures loose may be beneficial to creating more change in the face. Do you have any ideas for how to prolong treatment in order to keep sutures loose as long as possible?
FM metabolizes the sutures.
@@american4280 Yes, and I learned that Alt-RAMEC is the name of the technique used to keep the sutures mobile for a longer period so the FM can do its thing
thumb pulling while the mse treatment should be a good option too probably?!
Ur the goat
What is mse?
research bro...
What is google?