Regarding my "no politics" policy, let me be more specific: If you feel the need to blame "Democrats" or "Republicans" or "Trump voters" or "Biden voters" for everything you think is wrong with the world, I'll give you one warning and then give you the boot if you can't shut yourself down. I've always had this policy here. That's why the comments are so clean. It's because I actively get rid of this type of inflammatory discussion. Allowing this type of discussion invites more extreme opinions as we have seen countless times on all forms of social media. It becomes a cesspool of degenerate behavior and I wont play host to it. This is not a platform for your political frustrations. Keep it on your facebook page. Light/non inflammatory political discussions are perfectly fine. This has never been an issue here. I'm not going to change my policy. Giving you the "boot" means you can still watch my content and read everyone else's comments, but your past and future comments are automatically removed by the system so no one (including me) can see them. A "set it and forget it" automated boot. This is a feature controlled exclusively by channel owners. Its literally in my best interest to use it this way because youtube will actively limit or even shut down channels that play host to excessive and extreme political discussion. Thank you for understanding. If you don't like this policy or it makes you feel angry, please feel free to report me to reddit or whatever.
@@PluckyPackratthis would be an extremely interesting video imo. The economic history that led to this event. It probably won’t happen though because it would take someone willing to blame pretty much everyone in politics
Growing up in Syracuse NY, crucible Steel was definitely a big part of the area. If they can't find a buyer it will close. Been in Syracuse since they came to the states in 1876.
Let's hope someone keeps Crucible alive. I don't think there's going to be issues with knife companies sourcing steel in the long run, but thats a lot of jobs on the line.
@@deeacosta2734 Crucible does not produce Bohler steels. The knife steel portion of their business likely has very little to do with their success or failure. The knife steel portion of their contracts and revenue adds up to less than 1% of the business they do. They mainly supply automotive, aerospace, and building supply steels.
In 1977, I was a teenager with a job at the Midstate Fairgrounds, right next to Crucible. I worked a night shift, and as I got off work, all the Crucible workers were making there way to work, and there were many hundreds of them. Now I'm a hobby knife maker, using lots of Crucible steels, and I really enjoy s35vn, as well as some Magnacut. It's expensive compared to lots of lesser quality options, but I like my results with it. I typically buy a 2 foot by four inch sheet and get 8-18 blades of varying sizes from it. A sheet of Magnacut is about $250, quite a hobby investment. Already raw sheets are getting hard to find.
I blame the "Rock Biter" from the never ending story for losing the grip on Crucible, we all thought that his HANDS WERE SO STRONG, yet he let it slip, and lost it.
I’ve been involved in business buy-outs & usually what happens is staff reductions & CPM steels under-performing (or deemed too expensive to produce to make a wide profit) dropped from availability … Chap 11 bankruptcy is also a restructuring - so business arrangements that are not profitable will be discontinued
That restructuring allows them redo contracts that they may have signed and been obligated to. These are the type of favorable contracts for the customer that in the end can decimate a manufacturer who then has to absorb the increasing costs. It goes back to really understanding what a partnership is. In today's business climate, it comes down to strip a company, return a profit, and do whatever one can do without any future thought.
@@wesb123I saw in a thread on another platform from someone who lived near Crucible. They said it’s an eyesore. If the condition of the equipment inside matches what it looks like inside, you will be right.
@flapxjackson Medford knife and tool looked into making an investment a while back, I'm just going off the information he gave in his live stream about it. He said it would cost him about an extra $60 million to get the place back up to standards.
Worst case scenerio is likely a company like Bain Capital buys them, strips their assets, fires everyone and the company is never the same. See Guitar Center for a good example. They have been absolutely the worst since Bain Capital bought them.
That or some company buys them and they are not so much as stripped of their assests/workers etc but policy changes are put in place that ruins the product....makes it of lessor quality. Prime example is when Disney bought the failing Marvel (comics side) and readership, especially of the long-time comic readers (such as myself) over time began to plumet due to a drop in quality of the product. Hopefully that won't occur in this case.
One thing i am not seeing anyone saying, and is honestly more probable than some USA knife company or any USA company period, is a Chinese company buting them out. They will keep a R&D and a small headquarters here to cast the illusion that, even though its not an american company anymore, americans are still at the helm. That has happened to many of our once great American companies.
That makes sense and was my first thought over a knife company buying them out/taking over, given how much they have already bought (including farmland) and it would be a source of steel for them of a high quality.
@Darmok_The_Hunter I very much hate that it's a thing and I really hope I am wrong, but just look how many American tool companies they have bought up. I'm sure it's in all industries but I have a tool addiction as well as a knife one and China buying up tool companies has been going on for a while.
@@TCCBLADES Larrin has the exclusive rights to it. He was just discussing it the other day on Bladeforums. He can bring it to another manufacturer for production.
I’m from upstate ny and had no idea Crucible was from Syracuse NY, crazy! Not political at all but as a small business owner from NY, it is tough to run a business here. I hope they can figure this out. Would be a sad day if they closed
This is fact, Crucible owes $700,000 in back property tax. They filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy which is protection and reorganization, you can only receive protection from creditors, not the government. Doing this may help them be able to reconcile their tax debt especially with the imminent upcoming tariffs.
Maybe that’s why they had that recent sprint run in cts steel… they knew this was coming and were testing the waters with a different USA steel manufacturer with their customer base
I'm sure the tax structure in New York has nothing to do with it. TRM uses 20cv and magnacut. They have used s35 in the past but I don't think they use any other blade steel
Isn't it Niagara Specialty Metals that deals with all the CPM steel? As far as I understand. Larrin said in regards to Magnacut, that he has no deal with Crucible only Niagara SM. And looking at NSM's posts and statements they don't seem too worried. I wish they were a LITTLE more transparent on WHO makes it. Do they have other steel manufacturers producing the CPM steel then NSM hot rolls the sheets?
@@deeacosta2734Hell no. Benchmade buys it then we are all screwed. They will make prices skyrocket so high that a normal $50 budget knife with be $200 and Benchmade bugouts will be $600. Will kill the knife community. They will have a monopoly on the market and can price anything however they want and choose who to sell to and make sure they raise their prices if they want the steel
I think their best bet is to sell the part of the company that deals with steel for the automotive industry by itself to one entity. It is my understanding that the automotive industry makes up the bulk of their steel sales. Then "everything else" including knife steels to a separate entity. Seems as if that would make them easier to manage. Every company i have worked for has had dead weight. Employees that don't pull their weight or their position has become obsolete. Offer to give those employees additional training to make them valuable to the company again or send them on their way with a nice letter of recommendation.
No doubt that's a huge part of the problem. If you followed how everything went for Louis Rossman, it's very clear how horrific Now York is towards businesses. I can only imagine how much worse it is for Crucible since they have all of the environmental regulations to deal with as well.
100% agree that certain states are not favorable for smaller and certain types of businesses. Chapter 11 can also allow you move your manufacturing locations like some of the pew-pew companies, car companies, some tech companies, etc.
Never wait if u don’t have to. I was tapped out but just ordered a spyderco zoomer convex otw for $60x4 no interest a month Sezzle. That’s basically free 😂
Bankruptcy doesn’t necessarily mean closing down, it stops bill collecting while restructuring. I’ve been part of several takeovers,I’ve had to reapply for my job every time. These are my experiences, my thoughts. Thx MC
I guess another thing we might see is the Crucible recipes being sold to other companies like Zapp and Carpenter. I feel like we just went through this same mess with Ontario/Old Hickory/Ka-Bar etc.
The company I work for was bought out 2 years ago. On the mechanic and machinest side mothing changed, no jobs were lost at all throughout the whole company, however changes were made on the technical side of what we do. Some for the better, some not so much. But over all it wasn't so bad.
Because no one else would get steel unless it went through Spyderco. Proprietary Ownership means Spyderco sets the price. The current owners are really decent people, but they’re not gonna live forever. Average joes can’t wrap their minds around how drastic a change in cost can happen, but the sky would be the limit. Average sprint runs and exclusives are $150-350. Imagine paying 350-650 instead? I mean I won’t but how bad you want that quality knife? Spyderco is the only show in town… there are other factors, between other knife makers and contracts and etcetc, but as end users. That’s the immediate impact
I hope and pray for the sake of the employees of Crucible that they get something figured out. My family went through some struggles when I was young due to my dad being laid off from his job. Wouldn't wish that on anybody.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Crucible is literally crucible. They produce the steel in huge chunks of metal that gets bought by Niagara SM. Niagara SM is doing the hot rolling, annealing etc into desired shapes - sheets, bars etc. And then the makers are getting the steel off them. It's more complicated than it looks. Even Dr Larrin admits his "deal" for Magnacut is with Niagara SM and has nothing to do with Crucible. On the other hand, Niagara SM are saying they'll work with other makers, but here's food for thought - what happens with the proprietary steel formulas protected by a patent or some sort of rights? At least half the exotic steels and some of the regular ones will be gone. And here's another one - why don't Niagara SM buyout Crucible? Surely they can afford it, especially in the state that Crucible is? Why do they opt out for shifting production to other makers instead of buying Crucible and actually cut their costs with CPM and Rex type of steels in the long run?
I think they will survive, one way or another. But a worst case scenario for me is a hig steel company buys them, and shelves all the cpm steels to hyper inflate the sales of they're own high end stuff.
If a knife company did buy them, they could keep it completely separate. We see this all time, take for instance archery. Hoyt makes great bows, Easton makes amazing arrows and USA made as well. Non Hoyt customers use Easton arrows, separate companies within the same company.
Steel companies supply steel for much more than knives. Remember several years ago Carpenter cut back on supplying steel to knife companies forcing Cold Steel to switch. There is much more at stake than just knives.
I think we could see whole knife companies go away if Crucible doesn't get bought. I think that other steel manufacturers will need to pick up the slack and decided which additional companies to take on. I don't enough of the steel industry to know if they can easily manufacture manufacture that much more steel in a timely manner. Some knife companies may just go away if they can sources the steels they need. My best guess is Crucible will get bought and we won't have to worry about that.
Crucible declared bankruptcy in 2009 and got a big investment from JP Industries. It only has 160 or so employees and it's privately held. With such a high value per employee, it's unlikely that labor costs are the real cause of financial difficulties. Corporate profits and executive compensation are at record highs these days.
The largest implication is losing production capacity in the market. A US based producer isn’t just going to miraculously pop up and fill the void. If they truly close their doors those that turn to Carpenter to maintain the USA manufacturing feather in their cap will not get the same pricing or availability. All of the slight variations of steels with new names may be some of the issues with keeping profitable. Marketing trickery of adding .0000000002 more vanadium or chromium probably needs to stop. I’m hoping a large tool maker based in the US that’s completely separate from the knife makers buys them. Channel Lock and Klein Tool are the largest mostly USA made tool makers
It would be like an hot dog kiosk would buy nestle to keep their hot dogs going to be made from em. And the hotdogs aren't even made from nestle directly
Just about all of Crucible's steels have had the patents expire, so the compositions could be made by someone else. But I hope Crucible keeps making them.
@ well that’s good then. Bohler can produce magnacut then right? With all the knives being made in magna cut I have to believe that would be profitable.
@angelozagorianos4026 I imagine Larrin decides who makes Magnacut if Crucible folds. Just like Spyderco would find another maker for SPY27. Other companies could make the compositions under different names since the names like S90V are trademarks. I just hope Crucible pulls through for its people, history and legacy in knife steel.
@ makes sense. As unfortunate as it will be if crucible does shut down I guess the bottom line is the steels they make will not be lost forever. As long as there’s money to be made from it, someone else can and most likely will produce them is what I am hearing from the comments. I just wasn’t sure if it was even a possibility.
As with anything in life, there are likely many factors involved. Regardless, it’s sad for not just our knife community but to the families and workers affected by this.
I hate to admit it, but i TOTALLY panic bought a Spyderco Salt para 3 lightweight. 😂 i had wanted it anyway so it seemed like the moment to do it, however i agree that we wont see much change for a while except in model availability from doofuses like myself. I only bought 1 and its not for sale. 😂 I sincerely hope C.I. can roll through this like they did in 09. My all time favorite user steels are CPM S45vn and CPM 3V. Thanks for entertaining the subject MC.
I'm a little confused, with the explosion of pocket knives and fixed blades in the recent years, I would have thought they should be doing better than ever.
@the_swinging_axe yeah, my thinking was a little single minded on that. As big as the knife industry is, it's still probably pocket change to industial and other commercial business they sell. I'm more sad/disappointed at the situation than anything, came out of left field a little bit and is something I didn't think about happenening.
Hmmm that sucks but maybe for an enterprising individual it doesn’t suck. Here’s the best case scenario where everyone wins: some enterprising person organizes Crucibles top 10 clients. Gets them to work together under a cartel agreement ensuring equal profits for everyone involved. This newly formed cartel purchases Crucible. They fire every manager and executive but keep the employees who do “the work.” New company then audits the product lines and manpower. They limit their products down to 20% of their total. Assuming the 80/20 rule can be applied here then 20% of their total products are responsible for 80% of their sales. Focus on production of that 20%. Hire motivated sales staff that can get existing customers to sign long term purchase agreements for discounted products. Expand business into producing other steel based products that do not require heavy investment. Company is run as CPM for brand recognition but is completely restructured internally with no more than 2 layers of management. Employees, managers, ceo, knife industry stakeholders. Employees who are not needed are offered generous package.
Grew up in cny. Only recently got into the knife game. Had no idea they were right in cuse. Man. Wonder if they do tours. Would like to see it before/if they go under
I see now why Spyderco moved to develop their own steel composition. They can move production to another metallurgical company if things like this happen.
A lot of the steel Crucible makes, bohler/uddeholm have a steel that's identical or very similar composition. Of Course not everything. But things like PM M4, T15, M390, A11 (10V), Vanadis 30 (Rex 45), M42, and the list keeps going forever. Then you have all the Carpenter steel, which also has a S90V type steel CTS 20CP. This is all worst case scenario. The Industry will adapt and adjust either way or go out of business.
Crucible has gone through this more than a few times. The problem is the place is such a dump that has not been updated in decades. If you were to see their facilities you, like myself would be surprised anything good was made there. What them closing would do is drive up the prices of knives across the board.
This company has been mismanaged and in a twister for quite some time. Thank you Larrin and Magnacut. Off to new manufacturing. New pricing will be interesting to see. Thanks MC
It’s hard not to think this part of the company was horribly mismanaged to get to this point given where the knife market is right now. They should be making record breaking profits in this market. Even if the company does shut down they will sell the rights to the steel formulas or the formulas will be fair use. So we will still have the steels in one form or another but the supply chain would be the real issue while the company changes hands or people buy the rights to the steel formulas. This is all just my best guess.
That is why i believe Chris reeve could buy it. They are big enough to do it, and developed so much with their help, it might make sense. If they did, i don't believe they would limit availability, I don't think they would financially need to. They are pillars of the knife world who would hopefully just want to keep the knife world just as it is
The steel industry is like the automotive industry. You think everything is fine then you get laid off out nowhere and don’t know what you’re gonna do. Been laid off since October hopefully going back after the new year
If they don't come up with someone to buy or investors in the company they probably will close down. They had to notify the employees per law that they may be closing their doors which is what they did. If its not a money maker or someone doesn't think they can make it profitable then it may not make sense for anyone to buy it. Then again there is always bankruptcy protection and could turn things around at least for a little while.
There's no way around it the knife industry is going to get much more expensive between this and the Trump tariffs. Made in America companies cost going up tremendously, and then all the import costs going up tremendously on the competition. Probably we'll see a lot of knife companies shutter in the next few years
Another issue comes in with as MC stated "panic buying" which can drive up the prices now on the retail side as demand increases and less than scrupulous retailers (which accounts for some, but not all retailers) drive up prices to unrealistic levels. Saw this in the past in the firearms industry right before or right after elections. Something that can be avoided especially in this case if cooler heads prevail...
Well I think it would absolutely suck to lose the company and especially all those jobs. If this is another bankruptcy thing, I really have to wonder what's going on over there. I don't know how that company could be hurting but, I guess none of us are keeping their books either. Even if they do go away as a company I don't think that means the steels all will. These are proprietary and most likely all patented steel alloys. Someone out there is probably going to want the rights to make stuff like Magnacut. I think legally the actual inventor of the alloy themselves may have certain rights there after the dissolution. Buying IP after companies get bought out and taken over is pretty much common these days.
I am looking to put together a group of investors to buy Crucible. The goal being to avoid a loss of jobs and keep a storied USA company here in the USA.
If spyderco has to go somewhere rules hopefully they can keep their heat treats and quality up. My spydercos hold their edges way longer than my kizers and benchmades not that I buy benchmades anymore but I do like kizers still.
No going to lie but I bought another PM 2 because I heard what might happen to Crucible i picked it up on sale for $150 and plan on getting another manix 2 and PM 3 incase the price goes up.
The amount of steel they sell to the knife industry is just a small fraction of their overall business. For someone like Spyderco to come along and buy them up just to produce knife steels doesn't seem very realistic.There would be way too much overhead involved to be worthwhile
I doubt that it's financially feasible for one knife manufacturer to have Crucible steels exclusively available to them. Crucible is financially trouble with a far broader customer base, so limiting to one (knife) customer doesn't make sense. Maybe a consortium of Crucible customers (let's say Spyderco, Benchmade, from other industries) might work. Maybe a competitor buys Crucible. Let's say Uddeholm-Böhler buys it. That would make it likely that knife steel prices increase as Uddeholm-Böhler would control a large share of the market. Or Crucible closes and its intellectual properties is bought by a competitor. Then the situation would be similar. But I doubt that a non-US company would do that as they would need to produce the steels abroad and ship them to the US which might also add taxes to the costs.
This company has been in trouble for a very long time, I'm not surprised they're bankrupt. It's a shame, their knife steels are great hopefully another brand will buy their patents and produce them. Business is business
I wonder if the bad publicity from Survive played any part. Also I wonder if there is a deeper agenda going on regarding specifically knife steels, and knife content being presented on mainstream social media platforms from a political standpoint. I know what I am saying is speculation but I cannot help to think that these factors may be playing a small role, or are even the deciding factor. I will certainly miss s90v and shall scoop some more up while it is still available for sale in knives.
That's an interesting question... what WOULD my top 10 steels be? Hmm... maybe something like... Magnacut (c) ZDP-189 REX121 (c) S110V (c) Maxamet M398 REX76 (c) 15V (c) 20CV (c) S90V (c) Thats a lot of crucible... Especially when you consider ZDP, Maxamet and M398 are hard/impossible to find...
Even IF crucible goes under, and no one buy the company to save it, someone WILL buy the IP (formulas) and we will continue to see all the same steels. They may no longer be made in the USA.
Ah i just read your comment history and you are fixated on deception in the knife industry. Not everything is a conspiracy dude. Recalibrate. Your intuition is off.
@ haha what, two comments? That’s hardly a fixation. And it’s not a conspiracy, it simple supply and demand. The supply gets compromised and demand goes up and whoever has the limited supply makes big bucks. Simple economics. You’ve made plenty of comments in your videos over the years about price gouging in the secondary market, you’re plenty honest about calling out companies for over charging for specific knives they put out, you know people are greedy.
@ your ad hominem fallacy aside, consider how on earth the company producing magnacut, which may be one of the best selling steels this year is going under after such a wildly successful year with their steels?
I’m sorry but if it is the knife side of the business that’s failing, some people deserve to lose their job (management). I don’t understand how you can be the biggest name in your business and go bankrupt except for utter and total mismanagement. I’ve worked in manufacturing for 15 years and almost everywhere I’ve been was stupidly managed. Leaving gobs of money on the table. At this point IMO, mismanagement is the true reason for the high cost of American manufacturing, not labor. The pentagon did a massive report a few years back on US manufacturing as it relates to national security (supply chain) and determined we were only operating at about 60% of capacity. As a country. Sad.
I think the hyypothetical analogy of MS buying Call of Duty seems improbable. I think a better analogy is how Amazon creates a service offering that they need (see shipping and Amazon AWS), and then selling what they don't use to other people. I am sure they'd reserve some "exclusives", but Spyderco would likely make a ton more by making more than they need and selling the rest. Likely a smarter choice would be a company like Carpenter or bolar buying the assets, so they can continue to sell under the brand and take the steel recipes.
Hmm. Seem like the fix is to reorganize the company in another state. Like Buck knives did 20 years ago. NYS is notorious for driving out manufacturing. Look at Camillus.
So Chapter 11 stops the bill collections, allows the company to restructure contracts (i.e. contractual obligations that may be very unfavorable for Carpenter due to cost, priority in when/what is manufactured based on the contract agreements, etc.), restructure debt that could allow them retool, sell off parts of the company, and possibly move their manufacturing to a location or state that is more favorable to the company. It could also make the parts of the company that can remain profitable and more attractive to buyers and allow parts to be sold off or written off that have encumbered the company. Of course, all of this could be just that they are out of money, cannot make money with current contracts/manufacturing costs, and will shut down only to have their intellectual right to certain patented steels/processes/clients sold off. Sometimes a Chapter 11 is the precursor to a divestiture or ultimate sale without the debt obligations from facilities, properties, tools, personnel, etc.
Chapter 11 allows Crucible to do all that. But if their creditors aren’t on board, they could petition the court and try to force Crucible into chapter 7.
I can't imagine they're going out of business... Every company that uses some descent steel is using crucible steel... I thought the knife community was pretty big 😢
Regarding my "no politics" policy, let me be more specific:
If you feel the need to blame "Democrats" or "Republicans" or "Trump voters" or "Biden voters" for everything you think is wrong with the world, I'll give you one warning and then give you the boot if you can't shut yourself down. I've always had this policy here. That's why the comments are so clean. It's because I actively get rid of this type of inflammatory discussion.
Allowing this type of discussion invites more extreme opinions as we have seen countless times on all forms of social media. It becomes a cesspool of degenerate behavior and I wont play host to it. This is not a platform for your political frustrations. Keep it on your facebook page.
Light/non inflammatory political discussions are perfectly fine. This has never been an issue here.
I'm not going to change my policy. Giving you the "boot" means you can still watch my content and read everyone else's comments, but your past and future comments are automatically removed by the system so no one (including me) can see them. A "set it and forget it" automated boot. This is a feature controlled exclusively by channel owners.
Its literally in my best interest to use it this way because youtube will actively limit or even shut down channels that play host to excessive and extreme political discussion. Thank you for understanding.
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Coleslaw's perfectly fine, and you know it!
Bring back Voss now!
@coletrick8748 his ashes were spread over the Atlantic. He belongs to the water now
Beautifully said man!
@@PluckyPackratthis would be an extremely interesting video imo. The economic history that led to this event. It probably won’t happen though because it would take someone willing to blame pretty much everyone in politics
Niagara Specialty Metals has said they will work with other manufacturers to continue to provide CPM steels.
Growing up in Syracuse NY, crucible Steel was definitely a big part of the area. If they can't find a buyer it will close. Been in Syracuse since they came to the states in 1876.
Thank you for that historic lessen. I hope they sell.
Let's hope someone keeps Crucible alive. I don't think there's going to be issues with knife companies sourcing steel in the long run, but thats a lot of jobs on the line.
@@GTGibbswait, did I write this? Cheers.
You are a hundredandfortyeight years old?…… wow
😮
Why is everything that's been open for hundreds of years shutting down?
The knife steel contracts are less than 1% of Crucibles business.
Yeah, I was reading that it's mostly aerospace, automotive, and tool manufacturing steels.
Then how are they going out of business? Bohler's hitting record revenues!
@@deeacosta2734 Crucible does not produce Bohler steels. The knife steel portion of their business likely has very little to do with their success or failure. The knife steel portion of their contracts and revenue adds up to less than 1% of the business they do. They mainly supply automotive, aerospace, and building supply steels.
@@davidv7403 Bohler is three billion dollar company. They produce plenty of super steels.
In 1977, I was a teenager with a job at the Midstate Fairgrounds, right next to Crucible. I worked a night shift, and as I got off work, all the Crucible workers were making there way to work, and there were many hundreds of them. Now I'm a hobby knife maker, using lots of Crucible steels, and I really enjoy s35vn, as well as some Magnacut. It's expensive compared to lots of lesser quality options, but I like my results with it. I typically buy a 2 foot by four inch sheet and get 8-18 blades of varying sizes from it. A sheet of Magnacut is about $250, quite a hobby investment. Already raw sheets are getting hard to find.
My work is in the tech space and it is nuts how undervalued real companies like Crucible are relative to all the AI slop and other scams.
I blame the "Rock Biter" from the never ending story for losing the grip on Crucible, we all thought that his HANDS WERE SO STRONG, yet he let it slip, and lost it.
*They look like good, strong, hands, don’t they*
I’ve been involved in business buy-outs & usually what happens is staff reductions & CPM steels under-performing (or deemed too expensive to produce to make a wide profit) dropped from availability … Chap 11 bankruptcy is also a restructuring - so business arrangements that are not profitable will be discontinued
That restructuring allows them redo contracts that they may have signed and been obligated to. These are the type of favorable contracts for the customer that in the end can decimate a manufacturer who then has to absorb the increasing costs. It goes back to really understanding what a partnership is. In today's business climate, it comes down to strip a company, return a profit, and do whatever one can do without any future thought.
The rumor is that their facility and machinery is so old and worn out that it's a bad investment to try and save the place.
@@wesb123I saw in a thread on another platform from someone who lived near Crucible. They said it’s an eyesore. If the condition of the equipment inside matches what it looks like inside, you will be right.
@flapxjackson Medford knife and tool looked into making an investment a while back, I'm just going off the information he gave in his live stream about it. He said it would cost him about an extra $60 million to get the place back up to standards.
@@wesb123 That’s a lot of money. I don’t see that happening.
Worst case scenerio is likely a company like Bain Capital buys them, strips their assets, fires everyone and the company is never the same. See Guitar Center for a good example. They have been absolutely the worst since Bain Capital bought them.
That or some company buys them and they are not so much as stripped of their assests/workers etc but policy changes are put in place that ruins the product....makes it of lessor quality. Prime example is when Disney bought the failing Marvel (comics side) and readership, especially of the long-time comic readers (such as myself) over time began to plumet due to a drop in quality of the product. Hopefully that won't occur in this case.
One thing i am not seeing anyone saying, and is honestly more probable than some USA knife company or any USA company period, is a Chinese company buting them out. They will keep a R&D and a small headquarters here to cast the illusion that, even though its not an american company anymore, americans are still at the helm. That has happened to many of our once great American companies.
What he said...
That makes sense and was my first thought over a knife company buying them out/taking over, given how much they have already bought (including farmland) and it would be a source of steel for them of a high quality.
@Darmok_The_Hunter I very much hate that it's a thing and I really hope I am wrong, but just look how many American tool companies they have bought up. I'm sure it's in all industries but I have a tool addiction as well as a knife one and China buying up tool companies has been going on for a while.
If Crucible makes a specialty steel for the defence industry, I would think the government would block that sale. But otherwise, it could happen.
As much as id hate to think this would happen, recent history points to this being a likely outcome.
Larrin Thomas owns Magnacut, at least.
Hey owns the name. Yes he invented it, but if anyone has the "recipe" and can duplicate the process, it's perfectly legal.
@@TCCBLADESif its still patented then thry cant
@@TCCBLADES Larrin has the exclusive rights to it. He was just discussing it the other day on Bladeforums. He can bring it to another manufacturer for production.
That's good at least
Yeah but who other than crucible can do the appropriate heat treatment?
Metal complex and Jared should go in halves and buy it.
@@150_ENGINEER yes. 🙌
Then they will need $60 million to get the machinery up to par
I'm not a fan of Benchmade, but the base steel they use on most of their knives is S-30V also.
I’m from upstate ny and had no idea Crucible was from Syracuse NY, crazy! Not political at all but as a small business owner from NY, it is tough to run a business here. I hope they can figure this out. Would be a sad day if they closed
This is fact, Crucible owes $700,000 in back property tax. They filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy which is protection and reorganization, you can only receive protection from creditors, not the government. Doing this may help them be able to reconcile their tax debt especially with the imminent upcoming tariffs.
Maybe that’s why they had that recent sprint run in cts steel… they knew this was coming and were testing the waters with a different USA steel manufacturer with their customer base
@JacobBrantley90
Naw man, they had that sprint run on the drawing board, planned, well over a year.
My mom is from Syracuse, NY and my great grandfather worked for Crucible for decades after he came over from Italy.
I hope they don't shut down.
I'm sure the tax structure in New York has nothing to do with it.
TRM uses 20cv and magnacut. They have used s35 in the past but I don't think they use any other blade steel
Isn't it Niagara Specialty Metals that deals with all the CPM steel? As far as I understand. Larrin said in regards to Magnacut, that he has no deal with Crucible only Niagara SM. And looking at NSM's posts and statements they don't seem too worried. I wish they were a LITTLE more transparent on WHO makes it. Do they have other steel manufacturers producing the CPM steel then NSM hot rolls the sheets?
Crucible makes Magnacut currently. No one else. If it has CPM in front of it, it's Crucible. If Crucible folds, other companies could make it though.
I hope a cool group of rich American knife guys can buy the company and keep it going the right way. 💪🇺🇸
A consortium of USA knife makers should buy them. Do something cool #Benchmade.
@@deeacosta2734Hell no. Benchmade buys it then we are all screwed. They will make prices skyrocket so high that a normal $50 budget knife with be $200 and Benchmade bugouts will be $600. Will kill the knife community. They will have a monopoly on the market and can price anything however they want and choose who to sell to and make sure they raise their prices if they want the steel
We employees would like that too! Hurry :)
I think their best bet is to sell the part of the company that deals with steel for the automotive industry by itself to one entity. It is my understanding that the automotive industry makes up the bulk of their steel sales. Then "everything else" including knife steels to a separate entity. Seems as if that would make them easier to manage. Every company i have worked for has had dead weight. Employees that don't pull their weight or their position has become obsolete. Offer to give those employees additional training to make them valuable to the company again or send them on their way with a nice letter of recommendation.
Went ahead and snagged a Magnacut Spyderco, just in case… really don’t want a $500 discontinued folder when its $180 now 😅
New York state totally blows for businesses. Maybe they can move to Texas
No doubt that's a huge part of the problem. If you followed how everything went for Louis Rossman, it's very clear how horrific Now York is towards businesses. I can only imagine how much worse it is for Crucible since they have all of the environmental regulations to deal with as well.
100% agree that certain states are not favorable for smaller and certain types of businesses. Chapter 11 can also allow you move your manufacturing locations like some of the pew-pew companies, car companies, some tech companies, etc.
Arizona!!!!
I don't want to panic-buy, buy I'm giving second thoughts to putting off getting that new Sage 5 till Spring.
Never wait if u don’t have to. I was tapped out but just ordered a spyderco zoomer convex otw for $60x4 no interest a month Sezzle. That’s basically free 😂
Bankruptcy doesn’t necessarily mean closing down, it stops bill collecting while restructuring. I’ve been part of several takeovers,I’ve had to reapply for my job every time. These are my experiences, my thoughts. Thx MC
I guess another thing we might see is the Crucible recipes being sold to other companies like Zapp and Carpenter. I feel like we just went through this same mess with Ontario/Old Hickory/Ka-Bar etc.
The company I work for was bought out 2 years ago. On the mechanic and machinest side mothing changed, no jobs were lost at all throughout the whole company, however changes were made on the technical side of what we do. Some for the better, some not so much. But over all it wasn't so bad.
14:09 why would that be a nightmare scenario ?! Would be way better than loosing cpm all together..
Because no one else would get steel unless it went through Spyderco. Proprietary Ownership means Spyderco sets the price. The current owners are really decent people, but they’re not gonna live forever. Average joes can’t wrap their minds around how drastic a change in cost can happen, but the sky would be the limit.
Average sprint runs and exclusives are $150-350. Imagine paying 350-650 instead? I mean I won’t but how bad you want that quality knife? Spyderco is the only show in town… there are other factors, between other knife makers and contracts and etcetc, but as end users. That’s the immediate impact
I hope and pray for the sake of the employees of Crucible that they get something figured out. My family went through some struggles when I was young due to my dad being laid off from his job. Wouldn't wish that on anybody.
I recall that Hitachi Metals Corporation (known to knife users as ZDP189, etc.) was acquired by a fund.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Crucible is literally crucible. They produce the steel in huge chunks of metal that gets bought by Niagara SM. Niagara SM is doing the hot rolling, annealing etc into desired shapes - sheets, bars etc. And then the makers are getting the steel off them. It's more complicated than it looks. Even Dr Larrin admits his "deal" for Magnacut is with Niagara SM and has nothing to do with Crucible. On the other hand, Niagara SM are saying they'll work with other makers, but here's food for thought - what happens with the proprietary steel formulas protected by a patent or some sort of rights? At least half the exotic steels and some of the regular ones will be gone. And here's another one - why don't Niagara SM buyout Crucible? Surely they can afford it, especially in the state that Crucible is? Why do they opt out for shifting production to other makers instead of buying Crucible and actually cut their costs with CPM and Rex type of steels in the long run?
I think they will survive, one way or another. But a worst case scenario for me is a hig steel company buys them, and shelves all the cpm steels to hyper inflate the sales of they're own high end stuff.
If a knife company did buy them, they could keep it completely separate. We see this all time, take for instance archery. Hoyt makes great bows, Easton makes amazing arrows and USA made as well. Non Hoyt customers use Easton arrows, separate companies within the same company.
Happy I'm getting my Spy27 Shaman for Christmas!
Low key hoping we get a BG-42 Sebenza again.
Steel companies supply steel for much more than knives. Remember several years ago Carpenter cut back on supplying steel to knife companies forcing Cold Steel to switch. There is much more at stake than just knives.
Good video. Thanks for not being hysterical. Interesting topic!
I think we could see whole knife companies go away if Crucible doesn't get bought. I think that other steel manufacturers will need to pick up the slack and decided which additional companies to take on. I don't enough of the steel industry to know if they can easily manufacture manufacture that much more steel in a timely manner. Some knife companies may just go away if they can sources the steels they need. My best guess is Crucible will get bought and we won't have to worry about that.
Crucible declared bankruptcy in 2009 and got a big investment from JP Industries.
It only has 160 or so employees and it's privately held.
With such a high value per employee, it's unlikely that labor costs are the real cause of financial difficulties.
Corporate profits and executive compensation are at record highs these days.
The largest implication is losing production capacity in the market. A US based producer isn’t just going to miraculously pop up and fill the void. If they truly close their doors those that turn to Carpenter to maintain the USA manufacturing feather in their cap will not get the same pricing or availability. All of the slight variations of steels with new names may be some of the issues with keeping profitable. Marketing trickery of adding .0000000002 more vanadium or chromium probably needs to stop. I’m hoping a large tool maker based in the US that’s completely separate from the knife makers buys them. Channel Lock and Klein Tool are the largest mostly USA made tool makers
Imagine Larrin, Eric glesser, and Benchmade all banded together and bought crucible
It would be like an hot dog kiosk would buy nestle to keep their hot dogs going to be made from em. And the hotdogs aren't even made from nestle directly
I wonder if would it be possible for crucible to at least sell the formulas to the other steel manufacturers. Let them produce magnacut s35vn ect.
Crucible doesn't own exclusive rights magnacut.
Just about all of Crucible's steels have had the patents expire, so the compositions could be made by someone else. But I hope Crucible keeps making them.
@ well that’s good then. Bohler can produce magnacut then right? With all the knives being made in magna cut I have to believe that would be profitable.
@angelozagorianos4026 I imagine Larrin decides who makes Magnacut if Crucible folds. Just like Spyderco would find another maker for SPY27. Other companies could make the compositions under different names since the names like S90V are trademarks. I just hope Crucible pulls through for its people, history and legacy in knife steel.
@ makes sense. As unfortunate as it will be if crucible does shut down I guess the bottom line is the steels they make will not be lost forever. As long as there’s money to be made from it, someone else can and most likely will produce them is what I am hearing from the comments. I just wasn’t sure if it was even a possibility.
My guess is they either get bought out and continue, or the recipes get sold to carpenter
I’m surprised by this timing. You would think the up coming tariffs would be a major boon for an American steel producer.
Knife steels are less than 1% of their sales.
CPM S30V Stonks 📈
This is in my city. Very sad if true. They’ve been around for over 100 years
As with anything in life, there are likely many factors involved. Regardless, it’s sad for not just our knife community but to the families and workers affected by this.
Great video man 👍
I hate to admit it, but i TOTALLY panic bought a Spyderco Salt para 3 lightweight. 😂 i had wanted it anyway so it seemed like the moment to do it, however i agree that we wont see much change for a while except in model availability from doofuses like myself. I only bought 1 and its not for sale. 😂 I sincerely hope C.I. can roll through this like they did in 09. My all time favorite user steels are CPM S45vn and CPM 3V. Thanks for entertaining the subject MC.
I'm a little confused, with the explosion of pocket knives and fixed blades in the recent years, I would have thought they should be doing better than ever.
Yeah, but it's such a small percentage of their overall revenue. I can imagine Benchmades entire 2024 order would fit on a small flatbed truck.
@the_swinging_axe yeah, my thinking was a little single minded on that. As big as the knife industry is, it's still probably pocket change to industial and other commercial business they sell. I'm more sad/disappointed at the situation than anything, came out of left field a little bit and is something I didn't think about happenening.
@seancollins3711 I'm absolutely with you there. Really the last thing to expect.
Hmmm that sucks but maybe for an enterprising individual it doesn’t suck. Here’s the best case scenario where everyone wins: some enterprising person organizes Crucibles top 10 clients. Gets them to work together under a cartel agreement ensuring equal profits for everyone involved. This newly formed cartel purchases Crucible. They fire every manager and executive but keep the employees who do “the work.” New company then audits the product lines and manpower. They limit their products down to 20% of their total. Assuming the 80/20 rule can be applied here then 20% of their total products are responsible for 80% of their sales. Focus on production of that 20%. Hire motivated sales staff that can get existing customers to sign long term purchase agreements for discounted products. Expand business into producing other steel based products that do not require heavy investment. Company is run as CPM for brand recognition but is completely restructured internally with no more than 2 layers of management. Employees, managers, ceo, knife industry stakeholders. Employees who are not needed are offered generous package.
Knife steels comprises less than 1% of their sales.
No profit in that.
@ correct. Would need to be top clients whomever they are.
@ definitely money to be found in owning the means of production given production can be done at scale.
Grew up in cny. Only recently got into the knife game. Had no idea they were right in cuse. Man. Wonder if they do tours. Would like to see it before/if they go under
It's falling apart.
Bark River uses a ton of it.
I’m sure Mike is already working on other options.
I believe carpenter or some other steel company would/could make some of these steels .xhp is pretty good and spyderco uses it occasionally
I see now why Spyderco moved to develop their own steel composition. They can move production to another metallurgical company if things like this happen.
So sad to hear about crucible but hopefully they pull through.
A couple of my favorites. Someone will answer market demand. Still I’d rather have Crucible still making steel. USA owned would be bonus.
Been waiting for u to drop about this topic… that is a scary thought if a knife company bought crucible and controlled the steel
A lot of the steel Crucible makes, bohler/uddeholm have a steel that's identical or very similar composition. Of Course not everything. But things like PM M4, T15, M390, A11 (10V), Vanadis 30 (Rex 45), M42, and the list keeps going forever. Then you have all the Carpenter steel, which also has a S90V type steel CTS 20CP. This is all worst case scenario. The Industry will adapt and adjust either way or go out of business.
Crucible has gone through this more than a few times. The problem is the place is such a dump that has not been updated in decades. If you were to see their facilities you, like myself would be surprised anything good was made there. What them closing would do is drive up the prices of knives across the board.
Foundries tend to be not so very pretty places.
This company has been mismanaged and in a twister for quite some time. Thank you Larrin and Magnacut. Off to new manufacturing. New pricing will be interesting to see.
Thanks MC
What is that brian brown knife at the bottom center, i was trying to figure it out the other day and couldnt find it
FSD
Craig brown makes the fsd.
It’ll be interesting with Leatherman. I’m sure they use loads of Magnacut
Metal Complex ,I think the crucible steel will get exclusive and will cost more, I hope the final product the knives to be not so expensive.
It’s hard not to think this part of the company was horribly mismanaged to get to this point given where the knife market is right now. They should be making record breaking profits in this market. Even if the company does shut down they will sell the rights to the steel formulas or the formulas will be fair use. So we will still have the steels in one form or another but the supply chain would be the real issue while the company changes hands or people buy the rights to the steel formulas. This is all just my best guess.
It doesn't seem like knife steels are a huge part of their overall business
Worldwide steel industries are all in trouble, in America especially because of strong dollar. Global markets giveth, global markets taketh away.
Is it a restructuring or are they actually going out of business?
That is why i believe Chris reeve could buy it. They are big enough to do it, and developed so much with their help, it might make sense. If they did, i don't believe they would limit availability, I don't think they would financially need to. They are pillars of the knife world who would hopefully just want to keep the knife world just as it is
There’s a current buyer offer of $17mil. You think CRK is big enough to outbid that?
Spyderco would love it,.theyd hold half their in inventory and mark it up 300%
The steel industry is like the automotive industry. You think everything is fine then you get laid off out nowhere and don’t know what you’re gonna do. Been laid off since October hopefully going back after the new year
I hope this also leads to spyderco doing steels like Nitro v or even 14c28n stuff.
If they don't come up with someone to buy or investors in the company they probably will close down. They had to notify the employees per law that they may be closing their doors which is what they did. If its not a money maker or someone doesn't think they can make it profitable then it may not make sense for anyone to buy it. Then again there is always bankruptcy protection and could turn things around at least for a little while.
There's no way around it the knife industry is going to get much more expensive between this and the Trump tariffs. Made in America companies cost going up tremendously, and then all the import costs going up tremendously on the competition. Probably we'll see a lot of knife companies shutter in the next few years
Another issue comes in with as MC stated "panic buying" which can drive up the prices now on the retail side as demand increases and less than scrupulous retailers (which accounts for some, but not all retailers) drive up prices to unrealistic levels. Saw this in the past in the firearms industry right before or right after elections. Something that can be avoided especially in this case if cooler heads prevail...
Or get ready for more non-powdered steals 154cm/Nitro-V/VG-10 etc instead of S20v/S45vn/Magnacut at non budget prices.
What spyderco is 3rd down on the far left side and what knife is the clear scale knife?
The clear scale knife is the hogue Deka. Might be original goat scales.
Looks like a Spyderco Shaman with RGT titanium scales and the clear knife is a Hogue Deka with scales from Original Goat.
The Spyderco is a Shaman with original goat scales
Well I think it would absolutely suck to lose the company and especially all those jobs. If this is another bankruptcy thing, I really have to wonder what's going on over there. I don't know how that company could be hurting but, I guess none of us are keeping their books either.
Even if they do go away as a company I don't think that means the steels all will. These are proprietary and most likely all patented steel alloys. Someone out there is probably going to want the rights to make stuff like Magnacut. I think legally the actual inventor of the alloy themselves may have certain rights there after the dissolution. Buying IP after companies get bought out and taken over is pretty much common these days.
I read a news article they already have a buyer based in Paris.
I am confused! Does this mean CPM steel's are possibly going away?
Yes.
Very likely.
I am looking to put together a group of investors to buy Crucible. The goal being to avoid a loss of jobs and keep a storied USA company here in the USA.
If spyderco has to go somewhere rules hopefully they can keep their heat treats and quality up. My spydercos hold their edges way longer than my kizers and benchmades not that I buy benchmades anymore but I do like kizers still.
No going to lie but I bought another PM 2 because I heard what might happen to Crucible i picked it up on sale for $150 and plan on getting another manix 2 and PM 3 incase the price goes up.
The amount of steel they sell to the knife industry is just a small fraction of their overall business. For someone like Spyderco to come along and buy them up just to produce knife steels doesn't seem very realistic.There would be way too much overhead involved to be worthwhile
Sounds about right! Would be like Spyderco becoming a steel company with a wee knife business hanging off the side!
I doubt that it's financially feasible for one knife manufacturer to have Crucible steels exclusively available to them. Crucible is financially trouble with a far broader customer base, so limiting to one (knife) customer doesn't make sense. Maybe a consortium of Crucible customers (let's say Spyderco, Benchmade, from other industries) might work.
Maybe a competitor buys Crucible. Let's say Uddeholm-Böhler buys it. That would make it likely that knife steel prices increase as Uddeholm-Böhler would control a large share of the market.
Or Crucible closes and its intellectual properties is bought by a competitor. Then the situation would be similar. But I doubt that a non-US company would do that as they would need to produce the steels abroad and ship them to the US which might also add taxes to the costs.
This company has been in trouble for a very long time, I'm not surprised they're bankrupt.
It's a shame, their knife steels are great hopefully another brand will buy their patents and produce them.
Business is business
Crucible steel knives on secondary market$$$$$, buy em up now boys. No FOMO....
Sorry but can anyone name the (big) knife at the bottom right?
Medford marauder
@jamesbruhl2919
Thanks James!
I wonder if the bad publicity from Survive played any part. Also I wonder if there is a deeper agenda going on regarding specifically knife steels, and knife content being presented on mainstream social media platforms from a political standpoint. I know what I am saying is speculation but I cannot help to think that these factors may be playing a small role, or are even the deciding factor. I will certainly miss s90v and shall scoop some more up while it is still available for sale in knives.
That's an interesting question... what WOULD my top 10 steels be?
Hmm... maybe something like...
Magnacut (c)
ZDP-189
REX121 (c)
S110V (c)
Maxamet
M398
REX76 (c)
15V (c)
20CV (c)
S90V (c)
Thats a lot of crucible... Especially when you consider ZDP, Maxamet and M398 are hard/impossible to find...
You should talk Sierra Bound into buying the company!
DB Cooper worked there
Even IF crucible goes under, and no one buy the company to save it, someone WILL buy the IP (formulas) and we will continue to see all the same steels. They may no longer be made in the USA.
Seems like just a ploy to raise prices. Especially where magnacut is so chest despite being relatively new.
.... no. This is wildly inaccurate.
Ah i just read your comment history and you are fixated on deception in the knife industry.
Not everything is a conspiracy dude. Recalibrate. Your intuition is off.
@ haha what, two comments? That’s hardly a fixation. And it’s not a conspiracy, it simple supply and demand. The supply gets compromised and demand goes up and whoever has the limited supply makes big bucks. Simple economics. You’ve made plenty of comments in your videos over the years about price gouging in the secondary market, you’re plenty honest about calling out companies for over charging for specific knives they put out, you know people are greedy.
@ your ad hominem fallacy aside, consider how on earth the company producing magnacut, which may be one of the best selling steels this year is going under after such a wildly successful year with their steels?
I’m sorry but if it is the knife side of the business that’s failing, some people deserve to lose their job (management). I don’t understand how you can be the biggest name in your business and go bankrupt except for utter and total mismanagement. I’ve worked in manufacturing for 15 years and almost everywhere I’ve been was stupidly managed. Leaving gobs of money on the table. At this point IMO, mismanagement is the true reason for the high cost of American manufacturing, not labor. The pentagon did a massive report a few years back on US manufacturing as it relates to national security (supply chain) and determined we were only operating at about 60% of capacity. As a country. Sad.
I think the hyypothetical analogy of MS buying Call of Duty seems improbable. I think a better analogy is how Amazon creates a service offering that they need (see shipping and Amazon AWS), and then selling what they don't use to other people. I am sure they'd reserve some "exclusives", but Spyderco would likely make a ton more by making more than they need and selling the rest.
Likely a smarter choice would be a company like Carpenter or bolar buying the assets, so they can continue to sell under the brand and take the steel recipes.
Sounds like MC is buying Crucible. Think of the MC exclusives. 🎉
for the sake of the employees i dont want them to close but if they do i think the knife market will be funny to see what happens
I get super triggered whenever brands don’t put the full name and only put S30V versus CPMS30V
2:25
Benchmade is guilty of this. Confusing me and making me look stupid dude in front of my BLADE forum’s friends.
Hmm. Seem like the fix is to reorganize the company in another state. Like Buck knives did 20 years ago. NYS is notorious for driving out manufacturing. Look at Camillus.
So Chapter 11 stops the bill collections, allows the company to restructure contracts (i.e. contractual obligations that may be very unfavorable for Carpenter due to cost, priority in when/what is manufactured based on the contract agreements, etc.), restructure debt that could allow them retool, sell off parts of the company, and possibly move their manufacturing to a location or state that is more favorable to the company. It could also make the parts of the company that can remain profitable and more attractive to buyers and allow parts to be sold off or written off that have encumbered the company.
Of course, all of this could be just that they are out of money, cannot make money with current contracts/manufacturing costs, and will shut down only to have their intellectual right to certain patented steels/processes/clients sold off. Sometimes a Chapter 11 is the precursor to a divestiture or ultimate sale without the debt obligations from facilities, properties, tools, personnel, etc.
Chapter 11 allows Crucible to do all that. But if their creditors aren’t on board, they could petition the court and try to force Crucible into chapter 7.
I can't imagine they're going out of business... Every company that uses some descent steel is using crucible steel... I thought the knife community was pretty big 😢
The knife community has grown. But overall, steel made for use in knives is a drop in the bucket for steel sales.
1 percent. The knife community would need to grow to 50 percent to make a difference.
Wow, I didn't know that... That's really sad to hear :/
As the automotive production industry goes, so goes Crucible.
I want Magnacut Chop sticks