The BOSE Prototype that Never Made It
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ค. 2023
- Mark tries to fix a very rare prototype radio, bought in by Ralf of the DCC Museum (check out his channel @DRDCC ) which combines a SONY Mini Disc Changer, and PHILIPS Digital Compact Cassette! This prototype was built by DELCO ELECTRONICS in 1995, and we don't know if it ever worked!
There is, of course, no documentation or schematics to help us out. We spent a long but fun day together, trying to see if it could be bought back to life! We didn't start filming until 8pm, so forgive the quality - we were quite tired.
Be sure to check out the DCC Museum for more rare examples:
www.dccmuseum.com
Mark, we need a part 2. It can't end this way!! It can't end this way, Mark! Bwaaaaah! You can do it, Mark!! Have him leave it with you.
I was hoping for a part 2 or more, it's fascinating with prototypes like this.
Thanks Mark for a great day and all your efforts trying to make this work for the DCC Museum.
Try powering it up again, think it was just missing the ignition power to turn on after the ribbon was put in the right way 😅
I still have my Philips DCC😊
@@tullgutten I'm sure they thought of that
@@Petertronic shit happens.
Sometimes the most obvious thing can be forgotten
@@tullgutten How do you think the chips were passing data....because it was on
Dear Mark. I don’t use telegram, this video about BOSE, and your previous one on B&O, shows that both are quality goods, its really. nice that you invited a guest, gave hospitality, and admitted ( understandably) components you don’t know of beat you, your magnetic personality does you well, keep making the vids, they are so interesting and entertaining.Trevor
Hey Mark, a couple of comments on this. In my experience the 8v rail is very common in car stereos; it's often used for the tuner and audio processing (e.g. volume/tone) sections. The display driver IC is an Oki MSC7170 - also a common part in car audio. It includes button inputs so also often handles the button matrix as well. Datasheets are readily available if you search for the full part number.
I thought this was a very interesting job to take on, thanks for posting the video even if it didn't work out!
That was just a pleasant surprise to see Ralf pop up in your video! I am a member of the DCC forum and a massive fan of you Mark... so seeing you both together was someting else!
You can just tell his love for electronics. He's like a benevolent electronics surgeon ❤
Wow imagine having that unit in your car back in the 90s …looks like it was mega expensive!
a toy of utter beauty
That's the first time I've ever seen one device with both MD and DCC together! This is a very special machine!
Same, and with that combo, I'm not surprised it never came out with how CD players took off in cars in the 90's.
@@CommodoreFan64it might be CD changer compatible?
I hope for a part 2. I want to see this working. Great video.
Mark youre easily one of the best electronics repair guys/engineers on youtube.
Great to see you 2 guys together. Greetings from Poland
That Bose stuff is weird and complicated. Mix it with automotive technology and Delco and a prototype and mixed-vendor integrations, and you’ve got a recipe for failure. The GM vehicles I’ve owned all had entertainment system problems. The one I had with a Bose was so problematic and strange with unobtanium parts, I replaced it with an Alpine system that sounded better and worked right. Good effort and another great video, Mark. Thank you for sharing! EDIT - another thought is the front panel says it has TheftLock. There could be some code required on one of the back panel inputs that matches an internal key to convince the proprietary controllers to power on. GM used to do it with resistors embedded in the ignition keys, but I don’t know if that resistor value is directly connected to the radio or whether it triggered the car’s BCM to send a “security good” signal out to the entertainment system. If you dig in any further, this might be a route to explore and research further.
That "Theft Lock" feature is something unique to General Motors vehicles. The VIN has to be coded in by the dealer if I'm not mistaken in order for the radio to function properly. Ex., if the radio was removed (stolen) from a GM vehicle and was installed in another it will not work. BTW, I've got an '04 GMC pickup with the original Bose system and it still works great. I've tried TWO Kenwood aftermarket receivers and both of them quite working after a time.
@@williamjones4483yeah bose is garbage
I'm not sure what would make it weird and complicated. The Delco/Bose systems just use a separate power amplifier to drive the speakers, rather than the one in the radio. Perhaps in earlier systems there are actual differences in the radio head. I have not worked on any of those. In the later ones, up to at least 2007 or so, it's just bits in an EEPROM that are set according to what sound system is going in the finished vehicle. GM calls these calibrations and they can be changed with a Tech II. (The later radios contain a fully functional audio power amplifier and can therefore be programmed to work with either "regular" or Bose speakers.)
There are different generations of TheftLock. The earliest systems let the end user set their own desired code. Later versions picked up the VIN (or a portion thereof) over the CAN bus, and if there was a mismatch or no communication, the radio would lock out or simply refuse to turn on.
I believe there are some weaknesses in the VIN based TheftLock system that could be used to work around it. Just power one of the radios on the bench, and it won't turn on beyond the clock display. (You can press a sequence of keys to make the radio turn on and run for a short time, which is probably a diagnostic routine.) However, if you put it in a vehicle where the VIN mismatches and turn the ignition key "on" (not to run), you can use the radio normally. When you turn the key to RUN and the BCM wakes up, the radio will lock out when its firmware realizes there is a VIN mismatch. I suspect the CAN bus line to the radio is held at a constant high or low signal before the BCM wakes up, as opposed to simply floating.
It would still power up though, and display "Locked" on the front panel.
Excellent little mystery we have here. Two heros, Mark and Ralf. Thanks for this video, it was worth a shot!
Mark you are a real man. Because you have patience and only with a smile on your face. Success! I enjoy following your work.
Great work, I'm speechless after this video! I know those old car stereos can give you a headache. You don't give up easily and that's a good thing. You really did your best to find defects to fix it.
I know it's a stupid basic question but it wasn't shown in the video, did you redo the battery + ignition connection? Because I was under the impression you left the battery wire only to see if there was still current draw.
I am quiet shure he will know how a Car Stereo works with Permanent 12V and Switched 12V.
@@Hotpack7279 I think so too, but he could have forgotten, who knows?
It was on and passing data
@@Bretware904 yeah but that could have been standby behaviour.
This was my thought exactly! If he did wire up with the ignition feed he would have showed it but instead he showed wiring up with the illumination feed
We need more videos Mark, absolutely love them!
Mark
You have great videos. You have excellent knowledge and experience.Congratulations.
You wrote on your website that you were busy for several months due to repair requests.
You can ask your customers "Do you want a video to be taken during the repair?" If the customer says "I want", you can ask for an extra fee.
You are already very patient and work very professionally in repair. Your customers will also see how much effort is put into them.
In addition, these videos are also useful in youtube videos.
Regards
*Translated with google translate
Your PSU is current limiting which might be causing it to crash during power up. If you swap over to the 25V 4A config on the PSU you can run it with a 12V @4A current limit to see if that helps.
Wow that DCC prototype looks quite the challenge. Good work Mark. I think you did wonderful.
What a gem! A MD changer and a dcc combo? wow. I hope you guys manage to get it going in the future, I want to see the MD changer in action.
Awesome. I'm a big fan of your channel and found your video just three minutes after posting. Gonna enjoy watching it!
You always make my day when you publish a new repair! (Even when it doesn’t get repaired 😅)
As an ex mechanic, I just wanted to let you know... With all older car stereo, you always need three wires to make them work!! 2 wires for power. + , - , and ignition ( not illumination)
When you get in your car and turn on the ignition, the radio comes on!
On older VW's, the ignition feed is actually turned on by a small door covering the Keyhole on the ignition barrel!
These GM headunits get a command to power on via the Class 2 "comfort and entertainment" bus. Without that command, it'll remain dead. It needs to physically go into a car or build some crazy off-board harness with a proper BCM.
Never heard of a DCC? In my new car in 1996 I just had a Radio/DCC player, with many pre-recorded tapes and my own tapes recorded at home. All Phillips…
Awesome video Mark ! That was a really cool unit ! I’ve also never heard of the compact cassette, never even knew it existed! Great to see the guts of it all!
enjoyed the video again i am just trying to remember everything i was taught before my stroke so a wonderful video thank you
did you try powering it on with all three supplies through the connector once you had the front panel on correctly? It might be that it needs all power supplies to turn on, but without the front panel it goes into some sort of panic mode, or unintended behaviour which means it tries to boot without all power supplies. Fun video Mark!
Did you connect the ignition feed back up to it after finding out that the ribbon cable was plugged in upside down for the display? Car radios generally wont turn at all unless they are getting an ignition feed.
Excellent as always!
Thanks for bringing this piece of tech Raif! Thanks for being real Mark.
I Love your channel it's very interesting when you take things apart and explain what everything is thanks very much Mr kind regards Simon from the UK!
Make sure you reconnected the red (key switch) power wire after you corrected the front panel ribbon. The radio won't do anything without both yellow (constant) and red (switched) inputs. I'm sure it's nothing that simple though and you already figured that much. Ribbon was probably upside down from previous trouble shooting attempt. I'd focus on that burnt transistor, maybe the transistor is good (or not) but whatever it's powering and possibly what feeds it isn't good for sure.
this. I would not be entirely surprised if it was just a matter of that ribbon being flipped. shorting something to ground that should not be to draw the 7w. then having removed the switch wire, once fixed it was just using the bare minimum power to keep the clock/settings memory going.
Im sitting here thinking about security, and how radios of that era started needing a security code punched in to unlock the radio so it could work.
Great video Mark! It was very interesting to see competing digital music formats in the one unit, especially considering the history of Sony and Philips with the development of the Compact Disc. This Bose unit reminds me of those short lived combo HD-DVD/BD players that were made by LG and Samsung 🙂
This was an interesting video Mark 👍 Thanks ❤
Great video as always
I worked at a shop that repaired a lot of Delco units. I hated them with a passion bc we often didn’t have schematics. I got really good at repairing anything without the service information and many times was stumped by Delco. The parts are all OEM marked.
Exactly and their soldering was notoriously terrible. I can't count the number of Delco electronic products that I have repaired just by repairing the solder joints.
@@stephensams709 the US NAVY 3M micro minicomp certified me in the late 80s..... RIBBON CABLE and SURFACE MOUNTS were BARELY comming into the equipment, but the amounts of ''sketchy'' solder joints that are out there, its a wonder the TRONS don't let out more smoke!!!
(Aviation Electronics Tech I was.... worked on IFF, radios, ...a missle avoidance system... many MANY M A N Y PRC90s !!! ....sigh... anyhow... lol yea... I look at peeps showing RADIO WORK on their bench and I shudder sometimes cuz the BRAND NEW RADIOS they are puttin ''kits'' into and watnot to tune them up or WUTEVER and I see radios *I* would have REFLOWED the joints in HALF the radio just cuz... well LESS GRIMILINS I LET BACK OUT INTO THE HANDS OF THE PEEPS THE LESS GRIMILINS I WILL BE CHASING LATER!!! or something like that...
and the peeps that use 2x to 25x the amount of WATTAGE they need to properly flo the solder, is like WOW.... DID YOU USE A WELLER 250w SOLDER GUN TO SOLDER THIS?!?!?!??!?!? ...well it was just the POWER WIRE!! ...sigh... nevermind... flashback ;)
From RoHS with love.
@@rkan2 RoHS would not have been a consideration with General Motors Delco units from the 1990s.
And because it's GM, that's why you have problems with Delco. They weren't known for the finest craftsmanship. The "Mark of Excellence" was a running gag.
And it's also easy to understand why it was so hard to get service information on Delco products; GM would rather you take your car with a faulty Delco device to the dealership to deal with rather than have their devices fixed by an independent shop.
The theftlock writing on the front plus being Delco is a dead giveaway that this was likely a GM component here in the states. The power draw may be a red herring as GM vehicles even back around this era passed all the bings and bongs from things like lights being left on, key in the ignition with door open, etc. through the headunit so the amp circuit was probably legitimately active for this purpose.
I was going to make a comment about possibly needing some digital 'ignition' signal to turn on but I'm not 100% sure if they used this methodology back then. It's more common now however with CAN bus based vehicles.
EDIT: Doing some more research bears out the last point. Looks like GM vehicles of this vintage didn't have a traditional voltage based ignition signal but was all data based. So this unit is likely looking for a digital signal from the vehicle telling it the ignition is on. GM-LAN is the protocol used so that may help if you want to try to rig up something to fool it.
100% a very close copy of what Cadillac was using in the Seville and DeVille around this era, late 90s/early 2000s. It might be looking for a CAN signal or some control unit that lives in the trunk. GM loves doing that shit
Thank you for letting me be in your world.
Mark, it was quite enjoyable for me to watch this video. your method was good. This job doesn't always turn out well.
I've never seen something that doesn't silently work doing so much! I just bought a non-prototype car radio that was arguably a failure about 9 years ago, the Sony XSP-N1BT. It's designed around the idea of using your phone as the display, still works and the app still works, for now.
Mark iam in absolute awe of you you are an absolute genius i am currently watching all your videos honestly you have the patience of a saint incredible and very interesting
savage video mark. well done
My father had a Cadillac Seville STS that was a re-import from Japan. It had this exact radio with the MD Player.
🫣 I where screaming innside myself after you flipped the ribbon.
You NEED power on both incoming supply cables to turn it on.
One is always on for memory while one is for ignition to allow it to turn on.
I think you fixed it but didn't know it needed both powers (every car radio is like this)
I bet it needs battery positive and key positive to turn on.
We need more Mark. Pls =)
Great effort! I recently found your channel and have been watching your past videos - fantastic work. As one of your other commenters suggested, did you try applying the main and standby 12 volts, wait a bit and then apply the "ignition" 12 volts? That may explain the dead power switch. Regards, David
A Theftlock feature is probably looking for an unlock code. This was popular in the 90s, discouraging theft by rendering the unit useless if disconnected from power without knowing an individually assigned code which is entered thru the preset buttons to reenable functionality. The Nakamichi TD1200 was one of the first products to use this scheme.
Ribbon cable fitted incorrectly on a prototype is feasible.
I did not see the two power connections remade after the ribbon was turned over 😮
The mini disc magazine changer looked very cool 😎
I had a handheld data cassette recorder in the 1990’s which we used for recording outdoor events for BFBS radio
I Love using Mini Discs. 👍 I would love to have this in my Mini
Had a Phillips DCC machine and was fantastic sound
Its a nice radio. Nice and chunky with big buttons and it has mini disc. I've been looking for a car stereo like this for a long time for my boombox. I love the sound of car audio its much better than home hi-fi.
Nice explanation Mark, and a methodical approach. I do a lot of blind fault-finding and find using a brass rubbing pen refill on the end of a probe is a great time saver for continuity tracing.
Ralf and I will look into this further at the DCC Museum. I didn't know that the MD player was a changer!
After you flipped the flex cable and powered it on, you could see that it powered itself up, then down again, so it's probably communicating with the front panel. That's great news!
You also showed that when you plugged the inverter board back into the motherboard, the front panel was getting AC for the heaters and a high voltage for the VFD cathode. When you soldered the VFD back in place, it still didn't light up?
After the VFD was back in place and all cables connected correctly…. It still did not start and light up.
Fantastic exploration Mark - there is something about prototypes that is fascinating. Nice try...!
Bad luck, Mark and Ralf (@DRDCC). I really didn't think many repairs are beyond Mark, but sadly this was one. 😢 Hopefully, one day someone can shed some more light on this MD/DCC/automotive rarity! 🤞
Oh man! I'd love to see it working
Love the intro music, played on a 78 RPM wind-up gramophone with a great big horn attached to it! 👍🤣
"Wind It Mark"
The 5V you were searching for was pulled down from something. As you found the 5V line totally at the other side of the main board on most upper left pin of an IC I bet it was a pull-up line, being sourced from an 5V regulator that controls the voltage for all digital stuff. Left upper corner very often is VCC for digital IC's. And with that in mind you can be sure that there has to be some power mosfet to switch on and off the power supply of the high power stages (AMP, Cassette mechanics, receivers and so on).
But of course - that would be a project going totally beyond economical repair.
What came into my eyes right at the beginning - maybe the device locked by the anti-theft control? IIRC "Blaupunkt" and "Becker" car stereos were locking up the controller (for ever?) if wrong code was keyed in to often. ... but there were rumours that one could re-enable this locked devices with almost no effort... 😉
Good Luck Mark :)
You can use a conductive metal brush connected to the multimeter probe to find the other end of a trace. You then just lightly brush the board until you it beeps. much quicker then prodding everything with a pointy probe tip.
Be good to see this working again. It looks very similar to one I had in my JDM RHD Cadillac Seville but it was CD and MD not the tape player
we need a part2!
I fixed a similar Bose radio once which did have faulty ribbons. Ended up replacing some of them by just hardwiring boards together. I hadn't seen a broken one until then, but they do fail.
There's a very similar unit that came in the 2000 Cadillac DeVille with regular cassette and minidisc, usually with a CD changer connected from the glovebox. I had to look into this digital cassette thing, like the audio version of miniDV tape, that's pretty cool! Despite the fact I'm glad cassettes stuck around, this format being more widespread would be really cool- i'm a firm believer that formats needn't war because they all have specific niches each other cannot fill and they should all exist alongside one another regardless of technology.
Well done Mark, I wouldn`t have touched it, looks a bloody nightmare
Love old OEM car audio gear. Would have loved to have seen this unit brought back to life. You gave it a good try though!
yes mark your amazing. you rock
I actually have the exact model myself.. Not sure where it is at the moment??? It was fitted in the hi spec Caddillac STS cars from approx 1996 to 2000 I think? DAC cassettes sounded amazing... Much higher bit rate that HQ CDs.. Keep up the good work..
If this was made for the U.S. market, then it would have another rare feature: Motorola C-Quam AM Stereo!
I have a pioneer prototype car head unit brand new from the 80’s! Recently started using it with external speakers as a media centre for my cassette tapes
Given that it's from 1995 and made by Delco, this may well be part of the GM impact prototype, which was the prototype for the GM EV1. Seeing as the EV1/Impact was using completely new and futuristic drivetrain, it would make sense to have all the latest audio gear in there too. The connector on the back also looks similar to the one used on the EV1. You could well have a piece of EV prehistory on your hands!
Here's my theory:
I highly doubt that this is from the Impact, and definitely not the EV1. If you look at the EV1s interior, it actually has an Oldsmobile head unit. What this radio looks like, is something that would have gone in a 1998-04 Cadillac Seville. Being that this is a prototype made in 1995, the timing would roughly line up.
@@theretroblondie - I was going to say something about a caddy as well. My fully loaded '99 Seville STS (that I bought from the original owner) didn't have that head unit, nor was there a mention of it in the owners manual (which showed all the options). My '01 doesn't show it either. 🤷♂
Hey Marko! Very entertaining video as usual mate thank you! What a shame you had no luck with this unit. I wonder if Bose themselves may have the info on this unit? Has someone tried to contact them I wonder? Probably an obvious question but I'll ask it anyway hehe!
Oh well, you did your best mate that's for sure, trying to trace signals & powers & grounds & clocks etc, but yeah. I can't see anything else you could have done without any info or circuit diagram. Such a shame ay? Cheers.
Mark watching you chase through that board without a diagram is a lot of experienced guess work on your behalf. I suppose having Ralph by your side during fault finding wouldn’t be of help because you need to concentrate your thoughts.
I did wonder if you connected the ignition connector back up again. The unit would allow you to put tapes in without the ignition on but wouldn’t play them (obvious) the memory connector may be helpful, it could be associated with playback. I did wonder if supplying a separate 5volts to the on off/switch may produce a result or give you more clues.
I suspect this unit will haunt you as to what could be done to find fault, it’s obviously been tampered with because the flat cable was transposed upside down, which wouldn’t help.
Has Ralph left the unit with you, so you could pick it up again if you get any spare time?
Good luck with that one Mark.
The DDC system was fantastic sound quality on par with DAT but 18bit I've still got loads of tapes and a recorder (Phillips DCC 730)
The 11 pin chip bolted to the back which appeared to be quite warm is a quad requlator chip L4946B, datasheet available
My exposure to Bose car stereo equipment was that it came as factory installation in my 2003 Acura. When I was shopping for the car, my friend was so impressed with it that he only sat in a car and listened to the stereo while we were at the dealership. Acura claimed that the speakers and head unit were fine-tuned to the resonances of the car for best performance, and I had no reason to not believe it. The Bose head had a 6 disk CD changer, which I didn't use that much, and which eventually failed mechanically to cycle CDs. I looked into getting it repaired, but it seemed that this was the weakness in these units, and a repair would cost as much or more than buying a new unit. In the end, I replaced it with a better Kenwood unit which had no CD changer, but added a backup camera. I kept the Bose speakers. Anyone who pays extra for a "name brand" of audio equipment in their new car is drinking too much dealership Kool-Aid. They all come out of the same Chinese factory.
At some point, I expected Marc to break this down into molecules.
Using a thermal imaging cam is smart.
DCC failed as we know,surprised Mark didn't know the format😮
MAAARRRKKK!!!!!!!! This is only the beginning my friend, ya gotta get that sucker makin music.
great video... I'm sure we havent seen the last of this Bose prototype.
Great to see a car stereo on the bench
Thumbs up for the work.. The power button is kind of a puzzle ...
Waiting for part 2😂🎉😅
This was absolutely amazing! There were probably 50 different silicon faults with this thing, these are American Delco units. They are far from perfect but a feat of engineering. The reason you didn't have a nut driver is becaise some of those cap screws are fractional metric! Wild shit.
Wow this is royalty!
Acho seus vídeos muito bons adoro!!! assisto todos!!
we need more videos mark :)
Nothing worse than seeing the Mend it Mark timeline coming towards the end and not getting "stay tuned to part 2". 😢
I do think the on off issue is somehow related to the ignition key on sequence. Most cars in the US specially in those days would not turn on unless the ignition was on the "on" position or the "engine start" position.
The nineties were heady days. Philips and Sony partnered in getting the compact cassette ( CC ) and later on the CD on the market. Then came digital, and compression. Here Sony and Philips couldn't get their difference solved. Philips wanted backwards compatibility with the CC, so they developed the Digital Compact Cassette (DCC) as well as the DAT (Digital Audio Tape cassette, a completely different form factor. Sony went on to develop a 'floppy' type of DCC, which became the MiniDisk.
Audio magazines never understood it, and trashed it across all brands of magazines. A couple of. years later they were shamefaced by the emergence and adoption of MP3.
But the damage was already done, The DCC, DAT and MD didn't get adopted by the market.
The bad thing out all of this is that both Sony and Philips were music publishers. They went in full protectionist mode and made sure there was no digital out on any of their devices. Like I said, heady days they were..
Wow what a cool headunit! Such a shame there aren't any schematics directly available. I really hope someone might be able to find something that might help resolve whatever issue is causing the problem.
I thought, at 11:37, you measured 5v on pin 4 of the motherboard connector into which the power switch board plugs. Later, you found no 5v on the power switch board itself. Does that not indicate a discontinuity between the motherboard connector and the power switch board? Either in the connector itself, or on the power switch board traces.
Only in a parallel universe would I ever imagine a HiFi that includes both DCC and MD in one unit.....to have a automobile head unit though? That's as alien as can be!!! Are we sure this is from planet earth? Either way, loved the video!!!! I would love a part 2 even if its not a happy ending. Hopefully the proper documents and resources get discovered.
Right off the bat I’m thinking it has probably been destined for a Mazda or Honda. Definitely an interesting piece of kit.
The build inside Looked more typical of a GM unit to me.
I loved DCC. In a blind test, as good as DAT at a fraction of the price.
That was an excellent example of a graceful loss. I hope to get there eventually.. lol
I quite fancied a DCC bitd but had a feeling it was going to flop,never seen anything like this.Good to see a collaboration though and a good try Mark👍
Got to be a follow up to this. Were all in suspense. Agghhhh...