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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 พ.ค. 2023
- Does Ob Nixilis trigger multiple times with a Rakdos Charm?
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Suggest a question: forms.gle/YTK2...
A: No.
Bonus: Interactions with Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph; Lotleth Giant; Grapeshot; Mana Clash; Demonlord Belzenlok; and Plague of Vermin!
"Count the verbs" is a great rule of thumb for this sort of thing. Thank you for the thorough overview of a very confusing card.
This question was discussed in my LGS just yesterday. This video was great timing!
I am planning to build this commander so it's nice that you put this together. I do think I have him down pretty well. Definitely can be tricky with a few of the phrasings. It is sad that Rakdos charm doesn't really work that well with him considering it's in the same colors, but it's still a worthwhile include.
This is the kind of video I subbed to this channel for. Love it!
Thanks for the video, Dave! The new Ob Nix is a confusing card and I've been getting a lot of questions about it.
I definitely have lots of scenarios where I'm not sure how it works. For instance if I have a red devil token that says "deals one damage when it dies" and if they both die is two +1 +1 or none?
Underworld Dreams and Manabarbs Trigger every time, right?
Yes
I will say, in terms of templating, I feel like something like Lotleth Giant would probably be clearer if it said "Undergrowth - When Lotleth Giant enters the battlefield, it deals damage to target opponent equal to the number of creature cards in your graveyard.", since that makes it grammatically intuitive to come to the correct interpretation while functionally remaining the same.
I just build a deck for this guy. Thank you for the clarification. I have cuts to make now lol
This was extremely helpful. Thank you!
Love this analysis, u wish i saw this when i first started playing Ob Nixilis
Always remember, "1 verb = 1 action" is a good rule of thumb, NOT an official rule.
I call that one a "Judge Trap" because I've seen it trip up some of the best judges I know.
also I disagree with your interpterion here.
Damage is processed so the life loss occurs all at once as a separate thing NOT because the damage was dealt as "player takes x damage at once"
The reason this is important is multiple life linkers will cause multiple life gain events (for Archangel of Thune), at the same time for that player as the player lost the single life loss event (for Ob Nix)
I agree that @Judging FtW kinda skipped over the whole damage translation into life loss here. From some of the discourse I saw this was the cause of confusion for some people and it helped clarify that Ob Nixilis is not triggering based on damage at all, just loss of life.
The reason multiple life linkers will cause Archangel of Thune to trigger multiple times is because there is a specific rule that says triggered abilities [CR 119.9] and replacement effects [CR 119.10] that look for a player to gain life are actually meant to be interpreted as looking for a source to gain that player life. This is mentioned in DDR#197 th-cam.com/video/yqxJQpQqmlA/w-d-xo.html
Because of this rule, all triggered abilities like Archangel of Thune are handled like the Ghyrson Starn example from this episode.
@miserepoignee9594
Ahhh after rereading it I see your point.
I maybe the one misinterpreting things.
Thanks
@@miserepoignee9594 I still think damage processing [CR 120.4] is relevant to Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin, though. Rakdos Charm is one damage event from multiple sources, so while it'll trigger Ghyrson Starn a bunch of times, it won't trigger Ob Nix because the damage doesn't become life loss until step three [CR 120.4c] when it's processed into its results. This is relevant because the math gets weird if some of the creatures on the battlefield have lifelink and/or infect
In EDH, how does Ob Nixilis work with Cryptolith Fragment?
When you tap Cryptolith Fragment, each player loses 1 life. Due to the wording on Ob Nixilis, "whenever one or more opponents each lose exactly 1 life, put a +1/+1 counter on Ob Nixilis..."
Will tapping Cryptolith net you one +1/+1 counter and one impulse draw; or will you get three +1/1 counters (one for each opponent losing 1 life from tapping Cryptolith Fragment), and impulse draw 3?
I have the same dude
So, if it's possible, play 1 life for plague a bunch of times to mill out the ob player. Seems fun! Just make sure they don't have instant speed burn that can kill you.
Creature Nixilis feels like a much better implementation of the concept behind Kelermorph as far as designing a commander build-around goes. All of the ping effects (besides like, Prodigal Sorcerer and some really bad old cards) are in mono-red or UR, there’s no other mono-blue ping effects, while black has a ton of "lose 1 life" effects. It also does a hell of a lot more than just increasing the amount of damage.
So how would this work with a triggered ability like the one from campaign of vengence or hellrider when you attack with multiple creatures "whenever you attack with a creature, deal 1/ opponents lose 1"?
multiple triggers for hellrider, so same answer as grapeshot
Hell rider and Campaign of Vengeance have separate triggers for each attacking creature. Your opponent would only ever loose 1 life at a time. So Ob would trigger the same number of times as creatures you attacked with.
Hey Dave, rookie question/situation here: Amy controls Ob Nixilis while Nick controls The One Ring with exactly one Burden counter on it. Nick moves to his upkeep and responds to The One Ring’s loss of life trigger by tapping it to add a second burden counter. Does Nick then lose two? Or does the trigger only see the one burden counter? Thanks for any info.
Great video, thanks a lot! Not sure if I missed something with the Demonlord Belzenlok. He does damage to you but Ob Nixilis only triggers if an opponent loose life.
Ob Nixilis' opponent is the one with Belzenlok. The creatures are not on the same player's board.
Ah, of course! Was too focused on my side of the board. Thanks!
@@johanwingard9189 no problem! Have a great day
@@shanerphillips Same to you!
Would the answer change if Ob Nixilis read "Whenever an opponent is dealt exactly one damage..."?
In that case, in a game where you have three opponents, each activation of pestilence (for example) would trigger the ability three times instead of only once.
@@pallen2645 I.. think you're misunderstanding a bit. I changed the "one or more opponents" to "an opponent" because I'm pretty sure that has to be how it's formatted for damage, but the relevant change is the change from loss of life to damage.
My more specific question is: Multiple creatures dealing one damage each to a player is considered one single event of life loss, but is it considered one single event of damage? My assumption is no, since a single dealing of damage cannot have multiple sources, but I'm not 100% sure.
@@JuniperHatesTwitterlikeHandles Combat damage is dealt simultaneously, so all the damage is added together, and then that damage being dealt is what causes the loss of life. Unless you change Ob to specify the source of the damage like on Ghyrson Starn, he will just see one big amount of damage being dealt.
Notably, changing it from life loss to damage to players is actually a strict nerf to the options Ob can work with. Damage causes loss of life, but life loss isn't always from damage.
How about Ad Nauseum? If they reveal multiple 1 mana value cards?
The losing life is part of the process that is being repeated, so it would work like the Mana Clash example
If i understand correctly that means. If i atack with multiple creature since Hellrider its on my battlefield, Hellrider gonna do x damage equal to the number of attacking creatures because i declare attack only once and the number or attackers gonna be determied on that step. So Ob Nixilis sees a bunch of damage from Hellrider not multiple instance on 1 damage.
No that's not right. Because Hellrider says "Whenever a creature you control attacks, Hellrider deals 1 damage to the player or planeswalker it's attacking." This will trigger separately for each attacking creature.
If it was worded something like "whenever you attack, each attacking creature you control deals 1 damage to the player or planeswalker it's attacking" then you would get no triggers for attacking with 3 creatures
Hm, see, I would have gotten this wrong. I would have assumed that "deal 1 damage for each..." would cause multiple instances of 1 damage, because it's worded differently than "deal damage equal to..."
So, what is the difference, then, between "Deal 1 damage for each creature card in your graveyard," and "Deal damage equal to the number of creature cards in your graveyard?"
In edh, if multiple players are hit with 1/x during combat at the same time, how many tiggers does Ob get?
I got a nekusar deck, and i was thinking on using him. If i got nekusar/underworld dreams in the battlefield and manage to wheel their hand im guessing that he does not trigger unless each player buys exactly 1 card right? Or if they got a full grip and discard their hand taking 1 damage per card they buy taking 7 dmg total it would not trigger him. Am I right????
So Ob Nixilis on the board and Mirkwood bats and I sac at treasure. All three opponents lose 1 life but in only triggers once? Unless I sac another treasure then he triggers again?
Thanks as always, Dave! If you or someone could explain to me or do a video (maybe there's one and I missed it) about the situation in the last ep of Shuffle Up & Play, where everyone is at negative life, being kept in game by two Abyssal Persecutors, and then one player hits the other with Ebonblade Reaper, which reads that both would lose "half their life". How does one "lose half their life" when at negative life?
I believe based on 107.1b, the amount of life lost from reaper is calculated using the negative number, but if the result is negative it uses 0 instead.
So if you're at -10 and attack with Reaper, it looks at half of -10 and says lose -5 life, but then the rules say you can't lose negative life and you lose 0 instead.
I have a question!
How would Weaver of Harmony work with Calix, Guided by Fate?
Would I be able to make two copies of enchantments if I copy the trigger?
So, what would happen if I got attacked by multiple 1/1 creatures with Urza's Armor on my side? Prevent the damage or add it together and prevent one?
Urza's Armor is a bit different, since it deals with incoming sources of damage, and not life loss.
Each creature is a different source of damage, so the armor would reduce each by one.
If you imagine a hypothetical Azru's Armor that instead says "if you would lose life, instead lose one less life", this would subtract one from the total instead of one from each source, since the life loss is taken all in one chunk.
It's important to remember that "taking damage" and "losing life" are two meaningfully distinct events that are usually, but not always, related.
@@fieldrequired283 Thank you!
Hey short question, would Ob trigger each time if I have a syr Conrad on my side and mill my opponent for 8 creature cards at once? I’m still a little confused with the wording. My initial response would have been separate triggers for each creature card milled thus enabling Ob.
Syr Konrad creates a separate trigger for each creature, and therefore Ob Nixilis would get one counter for each creature. Syr Konrad doesn't deal more than one damage to each opponent at once
So if I give a pestilence demon lifelink, and have a nykthos paragon on the field, the nykthos paragon will give me counters for each thing pestilence demon hits rather than just the one right? Now what if I gave pestilence demon a spirit link or a soul link?
[L1] Re: Nykthos Paragon - yes, it will sum the total damage dealt by the Demon's activation and put that many counters on your team. Remember though, Paragon only triggers once each turn.
Re: Spirit/Soul Link - same thing happens here, but since Spirit & Soul Link are triggered abilities you'll have to resolve their triggers first. With Soul Link, the Oracle wording has been updated to be two separate triggers, which means you'll want to resolve the "deals damage" trigger first to get the most value from Nykthos Paragon, and then you'll gain an additional life from the "is dealt damage" trigger but Paragon won't trigger again
So what about reckless firweaver? If I cast dock side would fireweaver trigger ob every time?
Reckless Fireweaver will create separate triggers for each artifact. It doesn't deal more than one damage at once
Hi, what happens if i've two cards on the battlefield stating "this card deals damage when the opponent draws a card" ?
Ob nixilis effect triggers twice or it doesn't trigger?
Thank you
let's say I'm playing Ob Nix in a multiplayer game and I cast Spiteful Reposession or i activate the monstrous ability on Stormbreath Dragon and the result is that one opponent takes 0 damage, one takes 1 and the third takes 2 or more. do I still get an Ob Nix trigger? My thinking is no because of the word "each." this is not an event where one or more opponents *each* lost exactly one life, since 2 oppnents lost life at the same time and one of them lost more than 1. is this correct and if not can you tell me why not?
So in the initial problem statement, Ob sees only one instance of damage even though it's being dealt by multiple sources?
Ob doesn't care about damage, only loss of life, so it's irrelevant.
With the original example of a Rakdos Charm, Nick's five creatures will all damage him at once. Therefore, Ob Nix sees Nick lose 5 life, which doesn't match the trigger condition of "losing exactly one life", so Ob does not trigger.
Also how about if I play Ob then the next turn my opponents ask crack their fetches for 1 life in response to eachother. Are this separate or one trigger?
Each would trigger separately, since they are not part of the same effect from the same spell or permanent.
I dont think so because each creature deal 1 damage to its controller is not equal deal 1 damage for each creature he or she control. If we image as stack working, each creature get one stack then resolve separately.
How about Kederekt Parasite with Ob Nixilis on the field, resolving a Wheel of Fortune?
That would work because each draw triggers Kederekt a seperate time
And if there were also an Underworld dreams under your control in addition to the Parasite, Ob Nixilis would trigger 14 times off of a Wheel since each card drawn triggers 2 separate instances of 1 damage. Unless I’m mistaken?
How would Extort work in that case?
Separate instances for each activation but trigger only once for each opponent, not three times
Extort is a triggered ability that causes all of your opponents to loose one life. In a multiplayer game, since this is all happening at the same time, you would only get one trigger. If you have multiple instances of extort, the multiple instances will all trigger separately. You would get one Ob trigger for each instance you pay for.
That makes no sense to me. Means Rakdos charm is essentially useless then. Sure it's two mana for a one time one damage IF they have one creature. But the wording is absolutely ridiculous. It clearly says "each creature deals one damage to its controller". Why would that mean 5 damage at once when you're doing -1 -1 -1 -1 -1. Not -5. Even if it's 5 creature simultaneously doing -1 dmg and it equals 5 doesn't make sense to say it's 5 dmg ar once. Magic has so many weird grammatical wordings IMO. If 5 people cut me it would still be 5 cuts different times.
yeah reading the card explains the card really doesnt apply here... infact its quite the opposite
Neat so Ob Nob here only cares if there is a total of one damage in one instance.
Does Ob work with spiteful visions?
Then why do my 5 lifelinkers trigger my "whenever you gain life" abilities 5 times instead of once?
It is due to rule 119.9. One of those fun examples where you have to look at the rules because the cards don't work exactly like they are printed. Because each lifelinker is a different source, that triggered ability triggers for each one.
119.9. Some triggered abilities are written, “Whenever [a player] gains life, . . . .” Such abilities are treated as though they are written, “Whenever a source causes [a player] to gain life, . . . .” If a player gains 0 life, no life gain event has occurred, and these abilities won’t trigger.
"Wait, that can't be-"
[Checks ruling on Karlov]
"INTERESTING"
:P
This video makes me hate rule 119.10 even more. 😤😤😤
pretty obvious