The one motorcycle company that needs to be revived
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2024
- The company Vincent was one of the greatest motorcycle manufacturers in history. Philip Vincent focused on quality over quanity, innovation, power and ease of maintenance. In this video I'm looking at Vincent's history and asking the question: What if Vincent came back today?
Special thanks to Mike from The Mighty Garage for allowing me to use so much of his Vincent footage! Check out his channel here: / themightygarage
Also big thanks to Machines that dream for letting me use his amazing photo of Simon Leake's Custom Vincent Black Shadow. Check out his Instagram! machines_th...
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#motorcycle - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Vincent should be allowed to rest and remain a legend. If someone wants to build a motorcycle from scratch and make it the best thing on 2 wheels start a new company, make your own legend
Exactly, The King is dead, Long live the King, Start anew don't just buy the legend
they were rattley old nails when they were new, and I was of that era !
Si Cheers
Amen
Agreed. Vincent does not need to be revived.
Vincent needs to remain at rest as a legend deserves.
For me , the spiritual successor to the Vincent was the Britten, designed and built by the late John Britten and his dedicated team. It won many races, beating the best that the large manufacturers could produce. There was one on display in the Te Papa museum in Wellington NZ, unfortunately my camera screwed up and I lost the photos. I am not enamoured of the modern rocket ships, too old and cranky? John Britten was a genius, like the two Phils.
I had a BMW R69S in the seventies. I would drool every time I saw a Black Shadow. Beautiful machines. I can’t see a new Vincent trying to out do a Kawasaki or whatever the fastest thing of the moment is. Riding down the freeway on your back tire while your friend go-pros you. Does that sound like the Vincent brand? I’d say going from point A to point B with the most aplomb and the least nuisance value should be the standard. 150 mph is way beyond my interests. My R100S was governed at 125, and while testing that on an empty AZ freeway is a fond memory, I also harbor a bit of shame for having put my life, and my families peace of mind, in danger.
I agree. In a way, the Motus was also an attempt at a unique motorcycle, obviously very different than the Britten but innovative and useful while not a full on modern "crotch rocket".
One exhaust note per lamp post in a high torque rocket ship. That's style. Actually it was one of Velocette's little boasts. Thump, thump, whoosh...
The Britten with its spaghetti exhausts, was a beautiful bike, centrefold nice.
Claiming that John Britten was a genius is a severe understatement... John Britten was more like a character from a Harry Potter movie like a magician sorcerer being skilled in the arts of alchemy who could probably turn lead into gold or something.... John living on the island of New Zealand severely handicaps anyone trying to design build and manufacture anything as everything has to be imported, but living in such conditions has forced new zealanders to become quite innovative and resourceful.
But after watching a documentary about John Britten and with my own technical background of what it takes to manufacture products from raw materials like the time our class visited the John Deere manufacturing foundries and facilities in Moline Illinois... Going through the processes John Britten faced everyday would be like trying to build a modern John Deere 4020 diesel tractor starting with a shovel and mining your own iron ore to be melted down in your own iron and steel foundry that you built in your backyard to end up producing an exotic diesel engine as an integrated part of the vehicle driveline that you also created yourself from nothing... When it came to the part where John had created his own casting molds for the engine block and cases then melting down aluminum to fill those castings one has to admire and comprehend exactly what he was doing is beyond comprehension... After field trips I have endured visiting machining facilities after castings are made... Then comes precise machining of chunks of materials into precise precision made parts that have to work entertainly as a finished product... John Britten was performing tasks in his own backyard that would mimic a sci-fi movie. As the song says with tears in my eyes for John "only the Good die Young" John had to be some sort of an alien prodigy from the future of beyond human patients and ingenuity ...
Spot on
As Mr Lee states, “If we left a revamp to modern designers it would only tarnish an impeccable name”. Couldn’t agree more. Some things are best left as they were.
Exactly!!!
There is an Australian company redoing Ducati motorcycles from Ducati's heyday!Although Ducati is still manufacturing motorcycles,and damn good ones at that,the company I speak of manufactures an improved version of some of the best(opinion here) motorcycles ever made by anyone!These are even parts-interchangable in many instances.I'm not saying make replica bikes but am saying modernize them where it's needed and leave what works working!
My father just passed down his 51 black shadow and a pair of comets in the form of parts. He bought them back in 64 and was a daily before he moved to the states. Going to refresh the bike for him so he can ride and hear it run again.
The Irving Vincent is manufactured in Melbourne, Australia. It’s a direct development of the HRD Vincent and available to special order. I’ve seen the sidecar versions racing in Historic racing in Australia. Fearsome torque from their bored out and highly developed V twins. Their single is beautiful too.
I have visited them in Melbourne, and having grew up with vincents at home, they are the most legit version of "modern" vincent motorcycles in my opinion.
@@etiennehamon4007 That would be fun! You probably saw video footage of the Rapide the Aussies raced at the Goodwood revival a few years ago. Epic match up like having modern all comers racing together
Something I'd like to see.
Vincent comet single almost forgotten
@@richardsavoie1073 Yep, a Rapide with the rear cylinder missing, there are two of them side by side in the Australian Motorcycle Museum in Nabiac. I remember there was a Vincent collector in Western Australia (I think) who has/had a fantastic collection, including the last ever built Vincent, mind you the two Phils were long gone by then. How about the Vindian? Although they never went into production. There is a photo of Phil Irving sitting on the prototype.
Do the Ozzy’s own the name ‘Vincent’? Is that why they’re making them there?
Have you seen the Aussie built Irving Vincent race bikes? Absolute beasts and beautiful to boot. I had the pleasure of seeing them in action at Phillip Island. The note produced had this now 60 year old mechanic in awe. Punches the gut and rattles your nuts as it blasts past, just awesome!
P.I.A.R.C is an amazing venue at which to watch motor racing; especially bikes,(it it isn't blowing a gale and throwing it down!)
Yes, l have been many times, sincecthe early sixties.
When I was a kid, around 1964-5, I saw a Black Shadow. I was floored. It was so beautiful. I'm 71 now, and I still think it was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.
Great vid! One aspect of the Vincent not mentioned, however, is their fantastic complexity, they're truly an engineer's bike, and you pretty much need to be an engineer to work on one. I had friends in the Vincent Club, went on some rides with them, and they were all the hardest of hard-core motorheads (the kind with lathes and milling machines in their garages). Then there's the Vincent Bible, a hefty tome filled with the accumulated knowledge of generations of Vincent owners.
When Rollie Free set the record at Bonneville he stripped down to his bathing suit to reduce drag and they bolted a short section of 2x4 to the rear fender for him to grab with his legs.
I've followed, dreamed over Vincents almost sixty years, since my childhood, and because of their "engineering works", still drool over them. That aspect can't be bypassed, I've built perhaps a hundred custom bikes in my day, mostly Harley's, but a few others, I'd love to be able to restore or even simply own a Vincent, but they should be allowed to rest on their laurels, they earned them well and truly. That "Vincent bible" is legendary, and unique pretty much.
Phil Vincent built his bikes to be convenient for owners to maintain them themselves. I read that Steve McQueen was an expert at setting up Vincent carbs.
I'd love to get a glimpse of the Vincent Bible!
They're not actually complex, just very quirky, I know, I've got one! Virtually no aspect of the design uses a standard motorcycle solution of the era. All other makes basically copied each other with just slight differences and a bit of brand identifiable styling. A Vincent however is different everywhere. About the only standard parts are the carbs, dynamo, magneto and wheel rims, the rest is all uniquely Vincent. So to work on one, you need to understand it and know how the different engineering solutions need to be checked and assembled. Be in no doubt though, a properly sorted Vincent will do some serious mileage without any problems and will easily keep up with modern traffic. Regarding a Vincent revival, the original concept of Phil Vincent was to produce the fastest, most powerful road going motorcycle ever made and to rethink all aspects of motorcycle design, to do that today, from scratch, would be an extremely difficult proposition, and definitely not cheap! Just making a fast bike that looked similar to everything else but with a Vincent badge would be a waste of time. It would have to be a gob smacker.
@@turboslag Britton
@@jiyushugi1085
Yeah, agreed, one of my favourite ever bikes and of the Vincent ethos. Although it was a race bike. I have some ideas but not the money!
I had the privilege of owning a '55 Black Shadow. Top quality motorcycle in my opinion. Not the fastest motorcycle BUT certainly the best handling one. I got a lot of compliments on it and later sold it for the same amount I paid for it new.
Vincent black shadow was and is THE rolls royce of motorcycles, the motorcycles of today come nowhere near the beauty of this bike ,
Gone but never forgotten. 👍
Brough or should I say Brough Superior was the rolls Royce of motorcycles. Even endorsed as such. Vincent were a different era with a significant advantage over their competitors of cubic capacity.
In hindsight as lovely an idea it is. If we left a revamp to modern designers it would only tarnish an impeccable name.
Has anyone actually bought the revamped Brough Superior?
@@richardlee2488,ah ..i stand before a man who knows his bikes ,you are correct richard , i stand corrected ,......but the Vincent was beautiful, she was at least ......a bentley 😁.
Take care on the road, and be safe .peace out ✌
In my Opinion, after the Brough Superior had set the standart as the RR of bikes, but foremost as the gentlemans ride on 2 wheels, the wonderful Vincent twins have taken on that attitude. Lord Hesketh understood it and tried to develop a new answer to the call of an "upper class" motorcycle, more understatement than rowdy or racer. Its difficult to say if any brand nower days has taken up that spirit. I think many brands try to make a mark builing the top dog in a category like: Racer, Chopper, Tourer, Adventure bike etc. A new "best bike of them all" will be a pattform for the different catergories, like the last Vincents where available as Super Tourer with full fairing (knight/prince). Maybe a hybrid concept with 400HP electric and.... we will see.
@@richardlee2488: Brough never made their own engines.
@@johndavidwolf4239 very true but they did use possibly one of the best engines ever built in the form of the JAP V twin as well as the Austin A series. Common practice then and even more so now especially in cars, aircraft, industrial plant.
Maybe if Britten and Vincent collaborated you could have a high power V twin in a carbon fibre chassis for the street.
John Britten died years ago so not likely.
@@MrKdr500
I meant the companies, I know both persons Britten and Vincent are long gone.
Britten would be a terrible idea, they don't have the manufacturing, sales and support network you would need to be able to build something that would be able to go to market, Britten couldn't even do that with their own bike and I'm not saying Britten was a bad bike, but it was basically a "one off". The only manufacturer that has the budge and facilities to pull something like this off would be Triumph, and then its still a British bike.
@@richardstevens801 Yes, the expertise that resulted in the Britten, is definitely alive and well down here in Aotearoa nz
@@RachaelSA Have you owned a retro-Triumph ? the only thing going for it is its name, and millions would buy a bike with Britten attached to it, over a Triumph.
Ah yes John Britten comes to mind. I can still remember my father telling me the story of the legendary Vincent Black Shadow, wow what an inspirational name. John
The look and style of that engine is what makes it and even in a modern frame it still looks great so maybe an updated engine in a modern frame but still keeping that look would be a successful venture, I am sure it would be fast.
A few miles outside Christchurch, New Zealand (my home) on a road called Tram Road, is a cairn and plaque commemorating a motorcycle world speed record set by a man named Russell Wright in 1955. This was on a Vincent Black Lightning, and the speed was over 184mph. Then Russell and another guy set a world sidecar record of 166mph! Imagine being the guy on the sidecar at 166mph with your ass just a few inches from the ground - THAT'S guts!! Evidently the motor from that Black Lightning ended up in a speedway sidecar bike, and my next door neighbour, who's about 84 years old, ended up being the swinger on that sidecar bike!! Must have been bloody interesting, and pretty crazy!! It's a pity that whoever owns the rights to Vincent didn't get together with John Britten (another Christchurch local) a few years ago!! That would have made them a force to be reckoned with!
184mph ..... modern sport bikes need between 160 -170 HP to attain that speed (ref: early Hayabusa). So to believe the 184 number the engine needed to make _at least_ that much HP AND/OR have a better aerodynamic shape than a Hayabusa. By contrast - 150mph can be attained with 85-100 HP even with a "naked" bike. 45 HP would likely push a Rapide to 110mph under ideal circumstances. I suspect Rollie's bike made about 110 HP @ 7000 RPM ( Bonneville is an unforgiving place). "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story." - Gaelic Storm
@@slowside123 What?? You don't believe it?? Google "World Motorcycle Speed Records" and look in the Wikipedia entry. You'll find in 1955 that Russell Wright at Swannanoa, New Zealand, riding a Vincent HRD of 998cc's set a record of 184.83 miles per hour, or 297.640 kilometres per hour. It was on a pretty much standard Black Lightning - very little modification! The date was July 2, 1955. This was not done at Bonneville. It was done on a long straight piece of road called Tram Road about 20 km from Christchurch, New Zealand, the last world speed record of any type on a road rather than salt flats! I was mistaken, the sidecar record was recorded by Bob Burns, but he was riding the bike, not the sidecar - still very gutsy - roads in New Zealand get a LOT of wind!! The streamliner body designed by Bob Burns looked very similar to Burt Munro's "World's Fastest Indian" body - Russell and Burt were good friends, despite being rivals!! Both were from Invercargill, at the Southern tip of New Zealand. If you Google "Russell Wright motorcycles" you'll see MUCH more information on the whole thing, including a black and white film clip of the world record runs!! I'm not sorry if the truth isn't to your liking Jim!
".....184.83 miles per hour, or 297.640 kilometres per hour. It was on a pretty much standard Black Lightning - _very little modification!_" Except that it likely made at least 110HP and had a drag coefficient approaching .2 Cd
" Imagine being the guy on the sidecar at 166mph with your ass just a few inches from the ground - THAT'S guts!! "
Yep. See th-cam.com/video/i_DAM3YUr0s/w-d-xo.html
@@tony35842 YEP for sure, Tony!! Totally bananas!! The guys who do this are a different breed of human...........if they ARE even human! Scary!
Agreed that the Vincent was the best mo'bike in the world, and a mention of the great Alan Millyard. Good video
Two other brands, don't forget them: Matchless and Velocette..... but, the ones who love the old brands, they love the old bikes as they were, and the new models under the old "name" are not the same.
Excellent research and wonderfully presented. Thoroughly interesting. Great video!
Vincent was my first choice an you made me smile with your same choice! one of best narratives I've heard, great job, an I'd love to see his modern bike. I'd use this video for a college class!
Your videos are getting better every time! Great writing also! Even if someone watching didn’t know Vincent’s story, they’d be engaged! 🤘😎⚡️
Vincent, a motorcycle name I have always respected.
Nice seeing and learning about our motorcycle history.
The thing about Vincent is they were not only a beautiful motorcycle in every respect, they established a legend which still stands today. Along with The Brough Superior SS100 they have become, and rightly so, the Rolls Royce of classic bikes. They stand apart from all other motorcycles. They appreciate in value like no other motorcycles. They have an almost mythical status and they represent the very best of the best.
I'm not sure that all of these attributes could be replicated now with a " modern version" but, there could be a " limited" market for sincere replicas, perhaps using some modern metallurgy in the construction and, maybe, a couple of design tweaks here and there.
Otherwise, I think it best, to leave the legends alone. They are, after all, legends.
I began riding in 1958 and have been riding ever since. In my youth I saw exactly ONE Vincent on the road. Legend? Hardly.
I agree with you. If Vincent was to come back, yes it should be from the ground up design.
The Innovations of the Vincent HRD brand were amazing . Girder Front End , Cantilever Rear End .
The Engine WAS the Frame . Everything else bolted onto it . The Closest thing we have seen since was the TWO ONLY Britten Endurance Racers .
Those were basically the Vincent Design , done in Carbon Fibre . Huge Power , Huge Brakes , razor sharp handling and VERY LITTLE weight . Fast ? YEP !
@Alfred Wedmore Asif , Asif , Asif , Asif , Asif , Asif , Asif , Asif , cough , bang , Asif , Asif , Asif , Asif etc
@Alfred Wedmore god no
yes - interesting to note that today most motorbikes use the Vincent design of cantilever rear suspension with springs under the seat - only like 70 years later ...
@Alfred Wedmore it’s 50 years late.
No, it was The Britton...inspired by Vincent , and Truly brought into the 21st-Century
was privilaged enough to meet Phil Irving in the 80s, he was still riding his Vincent and a very cool guy.
I remember fondly the day I kick-started a black shadow in 1964. A small bike repairer that tolerated enthusiasts. He would later sell me my first bike, a Lambretta LD150. A bit of a comedown. This was "in the sticks" at Brewood, Staffordshire ,England. There were a pair of cafe racer series C, where I lived at Kingswinford. Happy days, Oh, for a revival.
just to think the little comedown in 1951 did 121 mph and held the 125 title
Kingswinford, Just up the road from my Nan and grandads house and the shop where he lifted me on to a series C rapide when I was a wee un. That was, I reckon when my love of motorbikes began.
I consider the Egli Vincent to be the 'modern Vincent' that should be brought back! It was also the ultimate true cafe racer in its day
I can remember an article in Motorcycle News back in early 70s about eglis , Ray Egli used to “race” them at Thruxton. Regards.
yes!!!!
Sadly, the master of the Egli Vincent, the wonderful Patrick Godet has passed away. My biggest regret was not buying on 20 years ago when I had the chance.
Vincent, Velocette, Laverda, those brands which have disappeared from the market today would certainly deserve a revival
Don't forget, the Black Shadow/Lightning also came in a fully faired (bathtub fairing) version called the Black Prince. I got a chance to ride one back in the early 70s when I worked at a Triumph dealer that also was a well-known Vincent restoration shop (if we couldn't source a bit for your Vincent, we could machine it).
Scary fast (easy to top 125). Decent handling but quite lacking in the braking department. Also the girder fork was great at keeping the front wheel attached to the ground - none of the 'stiction' you get with telescoping gear, minimal braking 'dive'. It was just a bit 'different' to have the headlamp moving on the non-faired versions.
FWIW, at the time, I was on a Guzzi LeMans, which had good handling and spectacular brakes - which might be why I was so unimpressed with Vincent brakes
I met Phil Irving (he was always known as Phil) back in the early 1970's, when he gave a talk at the Triumph Sports Owners Association in Melbourne, Oz. This was sports car club, not motorcycles, but I rode British bikes and just loved Vincents. He was an amazing guy, so knowledgeable on getting the most out of an engine. I still own a signed copy of his book, "Tuning for Speed". Not long after, I was in the UK visiting relatives and just missed out on an amazing factory made Vincent alloy monocoque kneeler sidecar outfit, fitted with a Black Shadow engine and yes, it was roadworthy; just an amazing one off. The young couple who bought it were from California, so I imagine it's still there somewhere. For me then, a revived Vincent today could sell the same engine in a similar frame and I'd buy it in a heartbeat (but not with the seat's rear connected to the rear suspension, I've ridden them and that's just weird).
To me any new Vincent needs to have some elment of retro in at least its engine - that engine and its sweeping pipes just blows me away. That is what makes the Vincent Black Shadow.
ps there are three machines which I could never stop looking at - the Saturn V moon rocket, the Big Boy steam train, and the Black Shadow.
Nice shout out for Allen Millyard. The guy is amazing. So humble yet so gifted. He has a TH-cam channel. I have no association with him.
If there's nominations for interplanetary engineering genius it would be a proper bestowment upon him
@@GreenCanvasInteriorscape
Absolutely right.
His Dodge Viper engined V10 is incredible.
There is a couple of u tubers that work n ride the Vincent...in my opinion the most bueatiful bike ever made...Ride safe..great info sir
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Fast, classy and a great design - a reinvention wouldn't be the same, an Elvis imitator is just that, an imitation ! It was and is an icon let it remain so.
The Vincent Black Shadow was the coolest motorcycle of all time.
If Vincent had been a well known brand here in India, It’d have been revived by now !
TVS has purchased rights
Ah India.....that well known producer of world renowned quality motorcycles........Not!
@@ambmainman nobody's perfect pal. The italians have their beautiful bikes, but they're ridden with issues and spend more time in a garage than on a racetrack. Even the japanese are criticized for their radical looking over the top alien-ish motorcycles. No matter what kind of bike you have, sometimes you all you gotta do is go out there and just have some fun!
@@akshanshrawat5052 No. TVS bought Norton.
@@ronin4ortyse7en And your point is?.....
In the 80's I was a member of the Vincent's Owner Club, not that I had or could ever afford one, even till this day, I did however hang around with a guy that had a Rapid. He came by the house one day and I have to admit that I felt a little arrogant having a Vincent sitting in front of my house. A Vincent is still on the "Win the Lottery Bucket List". While I do agree with others that the Vincent needs to rest in peace, I do have to admit that Godet did a good job on the Egli-Vincent recreation.
I ride a Zero. Anybody wants to make the successor to the Vincent Black Shadow nowadays will no doubt build it around an electric motor. BTW I had the immense pleasure of piloting a Black Shadow down Atlantic Avenue in Atlantic City from Margate to the Boardwalk; I had pulled up next to the owner, with me on my Triumph Cub, and the rider on the Vincent Black Shadow offered to let me ride his bike and he rode my Cub downtown. You could just feel the quality. BMWs back then felt like that too -- kind of a sewing-machine feel to it. It felt heavy; but I'm not a real big guy. I did not know until today right now watching this excellent video that the machine I was riding would go 150 miles an hour out of the box; like, you've got to be kidding me. Wow. Funny thing is that I had bought the Cub from the Triumph dealer outside of Atlantic City in Pleasntville New Jersey who was also the President of the Jersey Devils MC -- a genuine badass. When I picked up the bike -- Bob had to special order it; didn't sell too many Cubs in those parts; I had traded him a 1954 T110 for it plus some cash -- I asked him if he would take me for a ride on his Triumph chopper. The speedometer read clarly 150 mph on a two lane South Jersey country road.
For me the Vincent Black Shadow was always held in high regard. not because it was rare or had an awsome pedigree but because of the visiual impart of that huge engine laid out between two wheels. I shall be happy with my Triumphs and Norton but find the same visual impart in a Virago and long to make one a cafe cruiser TY for sharing the story of HRD and the Vincents
I see the Black Shadow as the spiritual predecessor of the Yamaha Vmax.
@@jtsc222 There are a lot of bigger twins but for me this even as a 500 cc engine packs more visual impact like the "Shadow" TY 4 sharing
vincent black shadow...still the most beautiful motorcycles ever made.
Incredible spirit and achievement. Looking forward to a new Vincent era, which redefines superbikes.
I have a pal who has a Black Shadow and a Norvin. He also has 2 Brough Superiors; an 1150 and his own REPLICA SS100....he actually made it all! Even the guys in the club can't believe it's not a genuine bike. Back to the Vincents....I've had some awesome modern bikes, but the Norvin was at another level....astonishingly good. My only experience on the Black Shadow was on the pillion. Oh my, was that painful! The geometry of how the seat works for the 'driver' is fine BUT the same geometry manages to counter any of the bikes suspension features, so the pillion is solid with the ground. So even the smallest road bump is transmitted directly to your backside BIG TIME. How they got away with that for so long is criminal. My kidney's are still bleeding! There's plenty of Vincent owners who regard the machines as perfection personified and will kill any one contradicting that. The sad truth is, there are a lot of features that are built in compromises. The big issues are suspension related and the Vincent is well capable of instantly entering a tank-slapper and breaking your neck if you aren't aware. There's plenty of high profile examples of this, but spreading the word does nothing for resale values. So owners are in total denial. The modern Vincent rider is happy do chug along in a cloud of euphoria; but most are not ridden at all these days. Would I buy one? Yes, but can't see that happening. Luckily, due to the cost, every-man won't get a look in either. And that's the best safety feature built into all surviving Vincents.
There actually have been several attempts by various groups in recent decades to resurrect the Vincent marque. Check out the Wikipedia article.
A very interesting and well researched video - thank you. (1st bike: a BSA Bantam…..a terrible choice, but a piece of history, all the same)
Vincent also made water cooled engines for the Water Scooter, these machines later became known as jet skis, the engines were cooled via water from the screw drive.
As a custom bike builder, Mat Hotch took a Vincent and produced an absolute beautiful motorcycle.
Alan Millyard is someone who could revive the Vincent
A couple of your commentators have already mentioned it, but you should look up the Britten. Race bikes from NZ in the early/mid 90s. They still look modern. I used to dream of a street legal version. It would make a perfect starting point for a modern Vincent.
Agreed. There are a lot of Vincent people who think that, too.
The exhaust of the Britten is a work of art, and the radiator tucked under the seat with his air ducts through the faring is genius. Mr. Vincent would have loved it.
@@heinzmaier2739 The only thing that would have made that layout better would be arranging it so air goes upwards through the radiator instead of down.
Thank you for another great video with fascinating info. Just one critical comment: a landmine is never cool, regardless of who made it...
"...I think he would look at Ducati and say, 'I want to do _that_ '" You nailed it. Great video throughout.
In my opinion, the best current Vincent are those made by Patrick Godet in Normandie, France. They represent the ultimate development of what could have become a Vincent nowadays.
What about Mr Elgi's machines?
They were fantastic. Patrick Godet built copies of the Egli frame which were so well made that he became the only one who received the agreement from Mr Egli. @@briansharp4388
Outstanding article. Right now in the U.S. Ducati is king and Triumph is modern retro. I love the Bonneville.
Triumph ruined the Bonneville when they went with a 270° crank! Give me a Kawasaki W650, or W800!!
Phil Irving went on to be Jack Brabham's chief engineer, in his spectacular career.
And the Vincent Vs are just gorgeous.
Well done. I wear a shirt with a 1936 Vincent New Imperial motorcycle (500ci) that is falling apart. When my wife asked me to get rid of it, I told her that it was my dream bike and that someday someone would make a bike as good looking as that Vincent and I would buy it. Well I am 75 now, ride a Harley and will probably never see a bike as good looking or as nimble as the New Imperial.
Thanks for the video.
Some things just need to stay as they are, Vincent HRD motorcycles are legendary and any attempt to revive the name would just dilute the importance of the spirit of innovation that the marque represents.
A series C Rapide has always been my fantasy bike, ever since my grandad sat me on one when I was about 5 years old outside a bike shop in Brierly Hill ( England) but honestly, the dream of one is all I need. I believe the dream and mystique of the most beautiful machine ever created would be diminished by a reproduction or modern reimagining. Hell, just look at that offering from the revived Brought Superior from a few years back!!!
Absolutely agree!!!
I too have have been blessed to sit on a 1953 Black Shadow that was all original 40 years ago!
A true masterpiece of technology and aesthetic design for its period!
They've been out of the game for well over 60 years so there's zilch nexus to the original company ethos apart from the name.
I enjoyed this vid' and could pick holes in the details of virtually every one of the restored examples illustrated, but more importantly I endorse Bart's notion that it should be possible to build a bike in the spirit of the Vincent. Long ago I owned an Egli Vincent with a C series engine to Black Lightning spec', and a couple of crates of dismantled Comets, whose parts I frittered away selling to members of the VOC over the years. I sold the Egli to the then President of the VOC, but wish I hadn't because the first thing he did was paint it and put a silencer on it. And lots more uglifying stuff - I don't think he 'got-it' about the Egli-Vin'. Which brings me to the point: Fritz Egli had already revived The Vincent (don't forget the definite article) long ago, including the engine casing as a primary structural element - no cradle frames here! And it exists today, pretty much, in the constructions of Godet in France, and a couple of others. There, in one, is the answer to your question. Look no further. Even I can quibble about certain parts of their creations, but the Vincent ethos is there. To modernise it beyond that to the looks of the slick grotesqueries of the present is tantamount to that of murder.
Come to think of it, didn't I see a Jay Leno vid' of his wherein he declared the Egli-Vincent the finest motorcycle he'd ever ridden? Look no further.
Yes. The Egli-Vincent is where Phil would have gone next. I know all about the Indian story, live about 60 miles from the old factory and owned 2 Chiefs (1940, 1947). When I see the new "Indians" I shutter and think "that's no Indian,call it what you want". Usually, it's the pickup truck to cart the boat anchor to the repair shop. Just because a famous name is used doesn't make a bike A bike makes a brand famous (or infamous). Want a next generation Vincent? they build them in Godet, France.
@@robertscheinost179 Am not entirely unequivocal in my rating Godet’s, and other's efforts at replicating Fritz Egli’s Vincents. The single item that ruined the aesthetic of even the original Stevenage Vincents, was the silencer plonked gracelessly on the end its beautiful exhaust pipes. Most of the Godet Vincent’s are similarly disfigured too. In Bart’s vid’ here at 15’43” is probably the most pleasing of all of the other’s recent builds seen here. It’s possessed of symmetry and proportion, and, wonderfully, embraces the original single rear shock too. Whilst aware of the stopping power of modern discs and cast wheels, wired wheels and big drums were very good back then and, moreover, looked 'right'. The half fairing is sort of okay, but ‘sit-up’ bars somewhat negate its reason for being. If it’s meant to be a British café racer, down swept, clip-on bars, surely? If building a replica Egli frame wouldn’t titanium be the choice of those that profess to be of the cognoscenti?
Sadly, the most disfiguring element of all, usually, is the owner rider: 6’2” when I had the Egli, reduced by age to 6’0”now, I just looked wrong; big fella’s just do not 'cut-it' when atop such a machine. Little guys like Rossi or, say, the original astronauts were tiny but looked like gods when about their business.
Very well said. Concur.
@@michaelhayward7572 Thanks. Pity I called the time bar wrong; I should have quoted 11'56" for the closest to what I might think to be the ideal Vinny.
@@mercsport All good points, Bruce, I'm a drum brake, wire wheel guy.. Me? I shrunk to 5' 6''. I fit! None the less, it's hard to capture the perfect Vincent, they quit making them when they were at their best!
I liked that you used the Norton as an example. As someone who owns a modern Norton, I agree they got it right in terms of design but that was more accidental than intended as Garner's outfit simply took over where Dreer left off. At this time in history, to create a machine from scratch with an internal combustion engine would be a hell of a gamble.
As a kid, growing up near Chesterfield (UK) in the 60s, I remember occasionally seeing a Black Shadow thumping around. A friend who was a real petrol head used to say it fired every lamppost :-))
It's easy to make badges, but pretty much impossible, these days, to make something as innovative as the Vincent. And even if you manufacture something so special, almost no-one could afford it.
Quality costs$$$ skilled craftsmen don't come cheap, and most of us are dying off😅
@@briansharp4388 I lived on Bennells Ave just round the corner from Conway Motors when it was run by Chas Guy and his wife Ann. Mega sad when he was killed on the Goodwood hill climb
@@wordreet been racing motorcycles and asphalt super modifieds till got married. Then tried hot rodding, but its a dying art. From bay area, used to know Lee Scott, the Seiples, Georgia threw us out of infineon raceway drags for going 5 seconds faster than the rules for our class dictated with no cage.
Death is part of what made racing exciting....its unfortunate when one dies doing it, 😔 but they went out doing what they loved. That's the way I see it.
@wordreet used to watch father and friends drag race flatbottom boats in Oakland Airport estuary in the 60's, some one(s) died every month for 4-5 events a year...kinda got used to it. Even flat track racing and tt at Fremont raceway involved alot of casualties. Saw more death racing than in the service!
Enfield never stopped production- the original company was bought by an Indian concern in the 1950’s or 60’s before all production was moved to India.
That's Royal Enfield , thank you very much . An Enfield is a Rifle .
Royal Enfield made guns and rifles for the British military, that's why their trade mark is 'made like a gun' and their famous single is called a Bullett.
They also supplied motorcycles to the Indian military and police, so it made sense to open up a factory in India where they shipped out all the gigs and machinery for their older bullett design. When the original English Royal Enfield business went bankrupt, the indian firm just continued under the name Enfield India but eventually acquired the full Royal Enfield name.
Common knowledge to any worthwhile gearhead.
@@johnbrereton5229 Now that is something that may be right, but I was going on 'facts' recounted by Bert Hopwood in his book ' Whatever happened to the British Motorcycle industry' - Bert was a designer for the industry from the 1920's onward I think and he detailed all sorts of info, the purchase by an Indian concern is explained more by what you say there. No offense meant here friend - it was a long time ago and I wan't even born till 1959........
@@thakery5720
No offence taken, but what I repeated is all true and verifiable.
No two words have ever said more about a subject than "The Vincent" does about motorcycles......
My surname is vincent and studied motorsport engineering design. I have wanted to get hold of the rights to the name for years and years, so I could bring the vincent back to the world. Always dreamed of running vincent motorcycles and making my own bikes. Just need to find someone with a bottomless bucket of cash to invest 😁
I myself love the look of antique motorcycles, my only concern is that if the company does comes back they can use the old styling but with modern technology up to a certain extent. And if they can make it affordable for the masses, they might on to something. I don’t think that a motorcycle should be made just for the few rich people but it should be made for everyone.
So very wrong. There is nothing immoral about producing an object that only a few can afford, especially motorcycles, cars, boats, houses, etc. In the case of motorcycles, the very fastest will require the owner to have the MONEY to buy it and the SKILL to exploit it's power, and that is as it should be.
Vincent should NEVER be revived.
We owned and road the "bathing suiit" bike for 30 years when it was a street bike. It was truly an awesome ride.
The Allen Millyard comment is so on point... Would throw any money I have at a Flying Millyard production
I think your concept is crazy. Motorcycles have peaked. I believe the future is dialing them back to being fun to ride again.
I’ll even hang myself out a bit. I ride a 66hp 2001 Ducati 750D and a comfortable and mad fun Sportster S that’s way quicker then fast. I only ride public roads.
Thanks for making this!
I think that the builders of the Vincent were simply trying to build the best motorcycle that they could and in that respect, I think that they would heartily agree with some other chaps having a go. In a way this has already happened, as in the case of the Buell motorcycle and it's unparralelled revision of the V twin motorcycle, brought beyond modern standards with new and innovative designs and engineering. I happen to own one of these remarkable motorcycles and they are a revelation to ride.
Thanks Bart. As a boy, I did get very close and personal with an HRD Vincent 1000 but was scared if the monster.
I think it was only a couple of years later that I began enjoying the Sparta 250 SL Single which was powered by the Victoria Aero II engine. This was a single cylinder twin exhaust Two Stroke engine which was marvelous design.
The bike was built by Ridgweilen Motors of Appeldoorn, Holland and I think floated on Koni suspension.
What to me is relevant is the practicality of any machine. It should be easily MANOEUVRABLE, safe and powerful.
I so wish that someone would revive this bike, if at all, adding ONLY Trafficator (blinker) lamps, a 12 Volt system a Tachometer and a better tail/stop lamp.
In the event of some well heeled affiscianado should turn up, I would beg of him to reproduce the identical original dual seats on which I used to sit for pleasurable hours on end!
Rustom Jalaldeen
Sri Lanka
I think The Vincent Black shadow was ahead of its time. I have a Norton Commando 850. Its a centennial model White with a red and blue stripe. My mentor was a Norton BSA dealer. A kid came to the shop one day sees my Norton setting there and wants to know if I want to race his Uncles Black Shadow. I look at Bill and he says go ahead. He says they were a great bike but it wont beat my Norton. Arrangements are made but he never showed up. RIDE SAFE! 👍🏼👍🏼🙉🙈🙊👀 I love them all!
Love your videos. Damn, you've got me rebuilding my old 82' CB750C and 73' 74 AMF Shovelhead. Thank You.
For those who want a new Vincent vee-twin to the original design, the Vincent Owners Spares Company can provide all the parts. The best modern interpretation of the concept is by Irving Vincent in Australia which has produced a range of successful vee-twin racers with capacities up to 1600cc turning out 183bhp. They look beautiful. But John Britten brought the combination of a lusty vee-twin engine with a modern chassis in the 1990s. The essense of a modern Vincent would innovative mechanical engineering without the strictures of cost. It would be lighter than MotoGP bikes (which have minimum weight limits) but just as potent. But the cost would be phenomenal, as it was in the fifties.
but Britten motorcycles are ugly. They're really no more than a slimmed down Buell.
When I was younger(60's), we would go to Esholt (near Bradford) for the Standing Quarter Mile (I could see the track from my bedroom window) and George Brown would turn up with his Vincent Super Nero.......my goodness those were the days.....
Rollie Free was the guy in swimming trunks following the black line on the Bonneville salt at 150mph.
Later on, he told Sir Anthony Hopkins that brushing 40 year-old tyres with boot polish wouldn't necessarily make them any less likely to fail.
Well there is of course the Irving Vincent built in Australia - which nominally is available to the public (if they have deep pockets) so that it can be raced here. It's a work of art to look at and definitely performs. What would be even better though is a re-imagined Vincent engine & chassis that draws on the most up to date material & technology available. Sort of like that Brough Superior that is now being made in France. Oh - and most importantly; it should be made to carry a passenger in comfort.
My dad owned a Vincent in the 50s and said it didn't like to run under 100 he loved that bike
Yes,it would absolutely be the marque that would be most rewarding of a restoration!The biggest and probably the most difficult part would be to do it correctly!We could go on and on about the definition of "correctly" but I think you see where this is going or where it can go...
Without a doubt,THE coolest, classiest bikes on the planet.
I cannot believe it has not been revived.🏍️👍🍻
Had a Triton in the day always dreamed of a Norvin. Thanks for the video nice job.🇬🇧
My mates dad has a home built H.R.D rotary hoe engine a single 870cc single in a Ariel frame it is a beast.
A guy in NZ had a Vtwin Vincent Black Shadow & set a land speed record for being on a public road.Record stood for 20years until a Japanese bike beat it on same road so HE wheeled out his Vincent slightly modified it but keeping in the rules & re set the record.Same road in South Island of New Zealand,they shut the road down & HE had 3 runs & beat the Japanese bike by 2mph.
Best bike ever built.
My Grandfather owned a 1949 Rapide & said HE would blow by at cop at 120mph on Auckland motorway & cop would radio ahead to another motorcycle cop & HE would blow by him as he receiving messages & pulling out but couldn't catch him & learn't if it a Vtwin Vincent not to bother.
I've been around the World of motorcycles for over 50 years as: a rider of all types, a shop owner, racer of 6 different forms. I built a “Supermotard” to commute & switch out to Desert off roading on occasion back around 1990. This was to keep from being killed commuting on L.A. Freeways & be more sane. This was 10 years before any manufactures created such a motorcycle. The motorcycle Industry needs to produce something as described that I wrote to the editor of the defunct newspaper “Cycle News” back in 2007, titled “Love Italian’s Outabox Mentality”. As follows:
Over my 40 years as a motorcycles enthusiast, changes that have an effect over the direction of the industry don’t occur very often. Having a broad exposure in amateur competition & a long time street / commuter rider, I’d like to see good ideas come to more motorcyclist. As a past MotoX & occasional Desert racer back 20 years & more ago, I was bench racing with a very capable fellow motorhead about what should be on the market then. I said there is no good reason why 4-stroke dirt bikes should be more than 20 lbs. than the best 2-stroke. It did finally come to pass at the end of the 90’s. Now the next overdue evolution is good fuel injection with appropriate electronics.
Back around 1996 I had an XR600 that I wanted to commute to work on, but still retain a true dirt function with a minimum turn around setup. What happened was the first SuperMotard in the area that I know of. As time passed, another wonderful motorcycle came to me, that being my first fuel injected motorcycle (2000, Ducati 996S). It showed me how wonderful fuel injection can be. Another joy to ride because of the throttle responsiveness & weight, was a ‘86 ex-factory Yamaha YZ250, that I had the pleasure of racing at the old Carlsbad Superbike track in the late 80’s. Then they called them Grand Prixs. Much faster top speeds than today’s SuperMoto tracks.
After the usual idiosyncrasies of my XR being a pain to start & all the compromising that occurs with the mix of carburetors, big 4-strokes & untimely conditions riding, I said, “when is fuel injection going to make it into mainstream 4-stroke dirt bikes ?” I called Cannondale & was on a mission to learn what could be done to convert that XR to a fuel injection system. To put it short, time & money were running out for Cannondale to get their innovative bike beyond an R&D project. So they had to abandon their in house injection system for a sub-contractors road application injection system. At best a compromising solution. Street systems adapted to dirt applications are far to compromising. Almost like a carburetor again.
All this background brought me to the next thought of what the ultimate duel sport bike should be like. A blend of the good qualities of a light 2-stroke & the ‘L’ configuration fuel injected motor of the Ducati. I didn’t say ‘V’ motor as too many people refer to this configuration as. Come on guys it’s not a Harley. Let’s bring better technology to more. Gordon Jennings would be ashamed of you. Then a couple years ago, while at Laguna Seca I saw a Bay area dealership displaying an Aprilia prototype dirt bike. It was of very close to everything I was looking for. Leave it to those passionate & capable Italian’s. But is it going to be a trophy bike or a high maintenance racer?
In case some don’t know a large bore single is not only fussy to start sometimes, but not as good at fuel economy & smooth power delivery as a twin. Oh I didn’t mention the most important part most people are looking for, its power potential is greater than a single for it displacement. Next the c.g.(center of gravity) can be more handling effective with the Ducati & Aprilia (SXV) approach. The fuel injection much more capable than the old school carb.. The trellis frame / stress member engine can also help weight & handling management.
The most important part about expressing my appreciation of this new approach for a dirt bike, is its potential to be much more important than its performance enthusiast appeal. If enough people recognize that this could be the future for an entry level street bike with simple kits to convert for various uses. To bring such a high level of technology to be affordable for entry level people, some compromises in manuf. will have to happen as well as large production numbers to give return on investment. I don’t want to go on & on about to much detail. In simple the AMA & the general knowledgeable motorcycle public (motorcycle editors) should tout the potential for this motorcycle. Aprilia needs to have support financially & have many people encourage the potential of this configuration to have the deserved effect it should have to the future of motorcycling. Imagine a 60 m.p.g. bike that is under 290 lbs., 70 h.p. & responsive & fun to ride. Maybe under $7000 & multi-functional (versatile). Throw in some Italian looks & you’ve got Vive Vivendo.
Steve Skinner - motox1@earthlink.net
I'd love to see it come back and I know they would have no problem selling them
I was at the Black Horse pub in Chorleywood in the UK 35 ish years ago. Bikers Drinkers Pool players small Smokers corner! Very few problems anyway, the place was loaded with latest and greatest bikes. In rolls a Vincent V Twin 1000 engine in a Norton frame, no stand, owner leans bike against the pub sign post. Open crash helmet and goggles, if you read the Motorcycle Magazines, Ogri to the T. Everyone was there when he had had a beer or two and left everyone. Tickled the carbs fired first kick and slipped clutch to probably 30mph, still in first and accelerating hard he went round the curve and out of sight, but could still be heard. Most bikes would have shifted gear three times by then. Talk about a Cafe Racer. He would have to really hit the anchors hard because there was a crossroads not far ahead. But whoever it was was nice scene nice display, Black leathers Boots scarf beard, old school helmet. Pub in the English Countryside few beers nice. Thanks for the Memory Vincent. They could do a song about it!😀
We need the Vincent now more than ever.
Excellent video. I 100% agree with your opinion, about Vincent. He would not rest on his laurels.
You said that the Black Lightning production ceased in 1952, however my cousin special ordered and received the last Black Lightning in 1955. I remember it well when I visited him back then.
Extremely enjoyable video! I congratulate you not only on your accurate compilation of historical facts, but also your witty and engaging sense of humor!
The consensus within comment section seems to be: let the legend rest in peace. I very respectfully disagree. Light, naked v twins are an absolute BLAST to ride. I would absolutely like to see Vincent Motorcycles ressurected, but with a sharp focus on keeping, within the constraints of more contemporary running gear, styling as loyal to the original designs as possible. Kind of like Titanic II - the ballroom, the staircase and the stacks, but with a bulbous prow, modern amenities for everyone aboard and (Ralston?) diesels instead of burning coal. The best from both eras...
It's the rider's experience that matters more than the numbers. A spirit arrises that can be found nowhere else.
I agree, let Vincent enjoy it's retirement.
How about a vid on the Square Four? Not a fast bike per se, but the engineering... OMG!
You mention Allan Milyard . What a guy. I consider myself to be a bit of an engineer . but this guy is on another level, all in his shed/garage
Sixty years ago I owned a Vincent Comet, great bike and surprisingly quick; wish I still had it now.
The greatest bike I every rode: The Triumph Bonneville 650. Second, the Triumph Speed Twin 500. But Vincent Foursquare, BSA, and Norton were greats too,
Literally the craziest just happened so I was on Woodward for the dream cruise and I thought it would be cool if that was vincent and it just happened to be I’m still in awe and shock like I literally never expected to ever see one of them in my entire life and them to see one just riding by is just so i don’t even know how to explain it
I had a nice dream last night. I was riding a Bonnie with those ribbed plastic covers over the front fork sliders.
Lovely dream.
My late father was chief designer for Vincents I have a couple of concept line drawings for bikes he designed at the time . Treasured possessions . The stories behind the Ammanda water scooter were classic.😄😄😄😂
I used to go to Alleyne's Grammar school in Stevenage, and there was a large shed there where Vincent's were made. I used to know George Brown who had a motorcycle shop, but he tested these bikes up the Great North road. He said, 'If you ride one of these bikes at maximum speed, sooner or later you are going to die.'
my son married into a family that owned a euro-cycle store from the 60s thru 90s. They still have several bikes unsold NOS sitting there. They have a complete Vincent in restoration that hasnt been touched since the 70s. They also have a 90s Triumph California w/ almost no miles as well as about 75 bikes in disrepair in the back. One Harley from ww2. Several others. My son married into a goldmine l told him when he sent pictures. Nothing is for sale and theyve been offered 6 figures just for the signs in the building. l told him its his retirement money. Yep.
Peter Knott, the BMW dealer in Bad Toelz, Germany, where I bought my first BMW (a modified R60/5/6) had a Vincent Black Shadow in the showroom. I was in love with it. It just exuded speed, just sitting there. That was in 1978.