Anybody with an inch of knowledge about falco marth knows why it's extremely dangerous to take on a marth baiting near ledge lol trying to make it seem like Wes had "so many options" is just silly
Westballz eats like 50% while M2K camps the ledge the last game though? He lost a whole stock before finally taking M2K's, during another time that Westballz approached him. That's hardly any reason to consider approaching Marth on ledge safe w/Falco.
The point I was trying to make was that Westballz had the chance of challenging Mew2King, which we know from watching the game and he was able to beat M2K at ledge, and was not utterly guaranteed for failure. He did have a lot of options, such as lasering in case M2K jumped too high or feigning ledge (Hell, I've seen some janky ass shine mix-ups that blew my mind in locals), which even though they aren't very likely to get anything major out of it if anything, it's better than practicing tech for a minute which has a whole 0% chance of doing anything. Also, it's obvious that the position was not favorable for Westballz, but that's what happens when you're in a losing situation (just like literally every other mu in every other game ever). Not M2K's fault that Westballz gave up prematurely. Final note, Mew2King has explicitly told Westballz how to beat, but Westballz just ignores it. Edit: Also, you only complained about people "trying to make it seem like Wes had 'so many options'", just moving away from the safe options there are plenty of riskier options with high risk, high reward. Just because it isn't safe doesn't mean it's not an option.
Well I would hope it's obvious that I mean "good" options, and not ones that only put Wes at higher risk than he was already at. Lasering M2K at ledge when he's continuously ledge stalling does nothing but keeps him repeating the same option - I find it extremely unlikely that M2K would fuck up something so simple, and even if he did get hit by a laser, Wes would have to read the laser he gets hit by and approach or else he still won't get anything off of it other than 2-3%. Westballz's history with M2K almost always ends with a blowout on M2K's end anyway, I don't recall a single match where he's beaten M2K, so taking him to game five probably put him in a position where he wanted to try to play safer to not throw anything away. Once he noticed that M2K was stalling him, he probably half gave up by showing off tech skill, half tried to bait him in with extremely unsafe bs in the middle of the stage since he figured he didn't have anything left to lose. I might be reaching there though. In the end, approaching Marth, or M2K in general near the ledge probably puts you at a disadvantageous position. It's a good tactic on M2K's end because obviously it helps him win, I just find it really grimy. If I was in the same position in game 5 I wouldn't say I'd do the same thing and spam tech skill like Wes did (not that I'm able to), but I wouldn't be very tempted to try and approach much.
Wes does nothing, he loses to timeout. Wes takes a shot, he might get rekt or get M2K off the ledge. You could say that Wes did not play his odds well, but it could also be a kind of 50/50 of hoping M2K would stop stalling if Wes gave him all this space. Still, he should've acted way sooner, seeing M2K was not giving in.
I mean, I definitely do not like camping/ timeouts at all. but Westballz literally was kicking himself in the his own shin. He was just letting the time drain, for what reason. To see if mew2king would just change his mind and stop? no way that would happen. I bet if he went in a minute earlier he wouldve won the set.
The thing is, people play fighting games to win. Not to look cool. If there’s some OP strategy which needs little skill to pull off during match that exists, people are gonna abuse it until it gets banned. If it exists, and no one is doing anything about it, then why not do it. If ur more worried about losing a match than people’s opinion on you, there is literally no reason to not do this.
You can say Weston could have countered the ledge stall, but is that really how you want melee to be played? Get a lead and stall out for 6 minutes? No one wants to see that. It's not what we want the game to become.
Honestly this set just shows how scared people are of m2k at ledge. I promise you if it was moon at ledge, west would have approached. Puffs ledge grab is actually beatable but hbox is great at ledge . But m2k even showed it can be beat. Up smash can clip puffs feet and down smash also can clip puff. And Marths fair can be cc if he doesn't tipper it and can even just wavedash back to grab ledge or short hop dair works too. West did it once during the set. Why'd he not do it again? Cuz he wussed out
102 ledge grabs from m2k on that FoD game... Just ya know... 51 seconds of invincibility not counting his respawn invincibility.... but puff is the only one who should have an edge grab limit
David Wong about 2 mins of westballs backairing in the middle of the stage. You got CC down smash or a dair that reaches below ledge. Or wavedash back to grab the ledge from him. But he did nothing *shrug*
tech skill doesn't mean he can take the ledge from mew2king lol, mew2king lives at the ledge, one small mistake, one dead bird. mew2king said oh yeah well take the ledge from me, "I can't grab midair" well surely he could mixup with a late fair onto stage and grab while still being invincible. another thing is clearly westball is better than you in every way, he is usually pretty bold but if he knows he cannot do anything he wont do it
ok this is a problem ive noticed on uploads of really boring sets. why are people disliking this video? the set wasnt to your liking, sure, i understand that. but what does that have to do with the channel that uploaded the video? they upload all sets, regardless of the set being boring or not.
At the beginning of game 5 Mew2King just used a few regrabs every time he was sent to the ledge to get to stage safely, but at the end he actually didn't want to fight.
WHY WEST WHY. Also. at the end of the combo at 15:44 west could have finished it with a soft dair and made it back. I think if he went for that he wouldve had the game. It wouldve given so much momentum and m2k wouldn't have been able to get so much more value out of his stock like he did.
Literally makes no sense. I used to like watching highlights of M2K bodying spacies, but when I see he’s just another Hbox I’m not gonna like him anymore. Especially when he talks about how ridiculous ledge camping is and how it should be banned. It’s just him being a hypocrite, and that’s not someone I want to cheer for.
Even though Westballz was just being stupid, this felt more evil than HBox's matches against Armada and Chudat because Mew2King is abusing the fact that Westballz was at both high percent and stock disadvantage, but Mew2King does this to hold onto an excessive stock and Mew2King wasn't even having a serious disadvantage put against him. Basically, Mew2King was afraid of losing to Westballz playing better.
m2k was 100% afraid lol. thats why he did that. it was a lose-lose for wes. no matter what he did when m2k was on the ledge the odds were way against him.
Think about what you're saying, regardless of whether or not he was afraid of getting outplayed, why would m2k do anything but optimal option in winners semis in a major against a top 10 player? You saying that scenario is lose lose for westballz shows that what m2k did was the smart, correct decision
Okay after this we've gotta have a ledge grab limit. M2K literally had no reason to leave the edge there and while it's possible to threaten him there it's still a very advantageous position.
I blame West for this, honestly. If he had done more than spam tech skill and just let M2K sit there for half the game he stood a good chance of bringing it back.
Geoffrey Miller gtfo bro m2k was playing lame as fuck. I used to like him but honestly I'd rather see chudat wobble mango 4 times than that bullshit again
While the fault of the timeout belongs to West for waiting too long to threaten at all, the part that upsets me is literally just the tounament before this M2K hardcore complained about ChuDat/Ices and how they take away fun in a game that is otherwise, his favorite thing on earth. And then he ledge camps WESTBALLZ of all people, the last person you'd ever accused of playing a camp/unfun style that M2K would have issues with. All thiswhen M2K was already playing really well and was on pace to just outright beat him anyways.
fuck u , no one wants to see timeouts every top 16 in 2018. if u wanna see the same fucking game over and over and over and over then go watch another fighting game.
People complain about m2k planking but westballz doesnt knew how to take space and approach safely. In all games he got punished with shieldgrab and crouch cancel. M2k just played the best strategy against that kind of player: punish bad approaches and wait. (besides, he just planked the last 3 minutes on game 5)
The shield grab is valid but in some cases you litteraly can't do much about crouch canceled moves to be fair. Also imo it's the optimal strategy yes, he's playing for money obviously he's gonna go for it. But just like how Westballz should be prepared to get planked out in a serious match with money on the line, M2K should be prepared for the backlash that comes with him choosing to plank till almost a time out tbh. It's also a spectator e sport. I personally don't care to much since this isn't really new to M2K and this is how he made his living but he or anyone else shouldn't be suprised if he gets backlash for it, especially since he always likes say Puff should have an ledge grab limit rule or complain about wobbling while having no problem Sheik chaining someone into needle camps/ledge stalls when in advantage imo.
I finally got the chance to watch this set and thought M2K ledge stall'd for 6-8 minutos in the last game, for all the hate he received in the recent days. But no, people were a bit exaggerated. First 4 minutes of last game were a normal match, very close but M2K beat West in punish game, it was until 4:00 minutes when he started with the ledge stall for periods of like 10-20 secs, during 2:00-1:00 Westballz did nothing but tech skill spam wasting time. When he finally decided to fight, it was too late. Anyway, Ledge grab limit is a good thing but I think M2K still would have won this set with that.
I think peopl are less upset that M2K WON from ledge camping but rather that he played this way only a week after he complained about others employing extremely lame/unfun tactics against him
Well, M2K was aware of that and posted on his twitter: Oh btw, last weekend changed my mentality on playing to win. If everyone else plays "lame" and wins, i should be allowed to too tbh.
@@ogot344 i know you commented this a year ago, but what provides the tournaments money is viewership and i doubt anyone wants to watch a match where someone stalls for ages. it might even be a reason why melee isn't at evo this year.
>M2K thinks only Puff should get a ledge grab limit
>Abuses it to hell himself
I don't think I've seen a timeout in Marth Falco in tournament before.
Haven't you watched old mew2camp?
Yes, and this outcome is still completely new.
Anybody with an inch of knowledge about falco marth knows why it's extremely dangerous to take on a marth baiting near ledge lol trying to make it seem like Wes had "so many options" is just silly
Yet, when Westballz went in he got M2K's stock.
Westballz eats like 50% while M2K camps the ledge the last game though? He lost a whole stock before finally taking M2K's, during another time that Westballz approached him. That's hardly any reason to consider approaching Marth on ledge safe w/Falco.
The point I was trying to make was that Westballz had the chance of challenging Mew2King, which we know from watching the game and he was able to beat M2K at ledge, and was not utterly guaranteed for failure. He did have a lot of options, such as lasering in case M2K jumped too high or feigning ledge (Hell, I've seen some janky ass shine mix-ups that blew my mind in locals), which even though they aren't very likely to get anything major out of it if anything, it's better than practicing tech for a minute which has a whole 0% chance of doing anything. Also, it's obvious that the position was not favorable for Westballz, but that's what happens when you're in a losing situation (just like literally every other mu in every other game ever). Not M2K's fault that Westballz gave up prematurely. Final note, Mew2King has explicitly told Westballz how to beat, but Westballz just ignores it.
Edit: Also, you only complained about people "trying to make it seem like Wes had 'so many options'", just moving away from the safe options there are plenty of riskier options with high risk, high reward. Just because it isn't safe doesn't mean it's not an option.
Well I would hope it's obvious that I mean "good" options, and not ones that only put Wes at higher risk than he was already at. Lasering M2K at ledge when he's continuously ledge stalling does nothing but keeps him repeating the same option - I find it extremely unlikely that M2K would fuck up something so simple, and even if he did get hit by a laser, Wes would have to read the laser he gets hit by and approach or else he still won't get anything off of it other than 2-3%. Westballz's history with M2K almost always ends with a blowout on M2K's end anyway, I don't recall a single match where he's beaten M2K, so taking him to game five probably put him in a position where he wanted to try to play safer to not throw anything away. Once he noticed that M2K was stalling him, he probably half gave up by showing off tech skill, half tried to bait him in with extremely unsafe bs in the middle of the stage since he figured he didn't have anything left to lose. I might be reaching there though.
In the end, approaching Marth, or M2K in general near the ledge probably puts you at a disadvantageous position. It's a good tactic on M2K's end because obviously it helps him win, I just find it really grimy. If I was in the same position in game 5 I wouldn't say I'd do the same thing and spam tech skill like Wes did (not that I'm able to), but I wouldn't be very tempted to try and approach much.
Wes does nothing, he loses to timeout. Wes takes a shot, he might get rekt or get M2K off the ledge.
You could say that Wes did not play his odds well, but it could also be a kind of 50/50 of hoping M2K would stop stalling if Wes gave him all this space. Still, he should've acted way sooner, seeing M2K was not giving in.
This wouldn’t have been as bad if Mew2king didn’t complain about a ledge grab limit only for puff when he’s clearly abusing it here lol
I mean, I definitely do not like camping/ timeouts at all.
but Westballz literally was kicking himself in the his own shin.
He was just letting the time drain, for what reason. To see if mew2king would just change his mind and stop?
no way that would happen. I bet if he went in a minute earlier he wouldve won the set.
You gotta understand west also is stubborn af
The thing is, people play fighting games to win. Not to look cool. If there’s some OP strategy which needs little skill to pull off during match that exists, people are gonna abuse it until it gets banned. If it exists, and no one is doing anything about it, then why not do it. If ur more worried about losing a match than people’s opinion on you, there is literally no reason to not do this.
so you're definitely the type to play like a bitch
Why is that bald dude camping wtf?
LMAO
You can say Weston could have countered the ledge stall, but is that really how you want melee to be played? Get a lead and stall out for 6 minutes? No one wants to see that. It's not what we want the game to become.
Baby Bop I would. Optimal melee.
Damn this was a great set punish-game wise, but the last match kind of killed the hype...
Honestly this set just shows how scared people are of m2k at ledge. I promise you if it was moon at ledge, west would have approached. Puffs ledge grab is actually beatable but hbox is great at ledge . But m2k even showed it can be beat. Up smash can clip puffs feet and down smash also can clip puff. And Marths fair can be cc if he doesn't tipper it and can even just wavedash back to grab ledge or short hop dair works too. West did it once during the set. Why'd he not do it again? Cuz he wussed out
Scar got 5th
102 ledge grabs from m2k on that FoD game... Just ya know... 51 seconds of invincibility not counting his respawn invincibility.... but puff is the only one who should have an edge grab limit
David Wong about 2 mins of westballs backairing in the middle of the stage. You got CC down smash or a dair that reaches below ledge. Or wavedash back to grab the ledge from him. But he did nothing *shrug*
if you think it's that easy, why don't you try it?
Cuz I don't have the tech skill. But I guarantee you that since westballs prides himself in his tech skill, he could do it
tech skill doesn't mean he can take the ledge from mew2king lol, mew2king lives at the ledge, one small mistake, one dead bird.
mew2king said oh yeah well take the ledge from me, "I can't grab midair" well surely he could mixup with a late fair onto stage and grab while still being invincible.
another thing is clearly westball is better than you in every way, he is usually pretty bold but if he knows he cannot do anything he wont do it
@@sprenzy7936 One small mistake = dead bird sounds better than do nothing lol...
20:35 - Wes's dsmash was 1 frame away from hitting M2K. :(
ok this is a problem ive noticed on uploads of really boring sets. why are people disliking this video?
the set wasnt to your liking, sure, i understand that. but what does that have to do with the channel that uploaded the video?
they upload all sets, regardless of the set being boring or not.
Anyone got the interview after this set? That shit was pricelesss
m2k playing is boring
I'm surprised Wes didn't just quit out lol
21:00 saving timestamp
That aerial drift around Falco's B-air to waveland, Isai drop f-air at 8:23 was CRISP!
At the beginning of game 5 Mew2King just used a few regrabs every time he was sent to the ledge to get to stage safely, but at the end he actually didn't want to fight.
Chesstiger2612 exactly. I think he didn't go for timeout mentality and happened more when west didn't even try to apply pressure.
;o
WHY WEST WHY. Also. at the end of the combo at 15:44 west could have finished it with a soft dair and made it back. I think if he went for that he wouldve had the game. It wouldve given so much momentum and m2k wouldn't have been able to get so much more value out of his stock like he did.
I used to be an M2K fan... now I guess i'll just be happy every time he loses to chu and hbox...
Daniel montoya you are fake AF.
Fake fan
Literally makes no sense. I used to like watching highlights of M2K bodying spacies, but when I see he’s just another Hbox I’m not gonna like him anymore. Especially when he talks about how ridiculous ledge camping is and how it should be banned. It’s just him being a hypocrite, and that’s not someone I want to cheer for.
M2k is mad lame. One of the worst smash representatives. Along w hbox
M2k punishes in game 1 were nuts
Kind of glad M2K doesn't enter tournaments anymore. Dude stopped giving a shit a while back
Even though Westballz was just being stupid, this felt more evil than HBox's matches against Armada and Chudat because Mew2King is abusing the fact that Westballz was at both high percent and stock disadvantage, but Mew2King does this to hold onto an excessive stock and Mew2King wasn't even having a serious disadvantage put against him. Basically, Mew2King was afraid of losing to Westballz playing better.
westballz was being an idiot, m2k wasnt afraid of shit.
m2k was 100% afraid lol. thats why he did that. it was a lose-lose for wes. no matter what he did when m2k was on the ledge the odds were way against him.
Think about what you're saying, regardless of whether or not he was afraid of getting outplayed, why would m2k do anything but optimal option in winners semis in a major against a top 10 player? You saying that scenario is lose lose for westballz shows that what m2k did was the smart, correct decision
Okay after this we've gotta have a ledge grab limit. M2K literally had no reason to leave the edge there and while it's possible to threaten him there it's still a very advantageous position.
Always nice to see actual top players commentating.
Just ban ledge camping
I blame West for this, honestly. If he had done more than spam tech skill and just let M2K sit there for half the game he stood a good chance of bringing it back.
Geoffrey Miller gtfo bro m2k was playing lame as fuck. I used to like him but honestly I'd rather see chudat wobble mango 4 times than that bullshit again
west couldve done so much to combat this that anyone complaining is a jabroni
While the fault of the timeout belongs to West for waiting too long to threaten at all, the part that upsets me is literally just the tounament before this M2K hardcore complained about ChuDat/Ices and how they take away fun in a game that is otherwise, his favorite thing on earth. And then he ledge camps WESTBALLZ of all people, the last person you'd ever accused of playing a camp/unfun style that M2K would have issues with. All thiswhen M2K was already playing really well and was on pace to just outright beat him anyways.
Well the whole point is to WIN not to impress you cucks.
fuck u , no one wants to see timeouts every top 16 in 2018. if u wanna see the same fucking game over and over and over and over then go watch another fighting game.
wes could've won imo but didn't have many tools to work around it but it was doable. I really don't have respect for m2k anymore
Most aggressive Marth by the way lol
Where did he claim that he was the most aggressive marth?
@@Caleb-xw4tw his stream when he compared zains “campy “ style with his “aggressive “ style
@@arturo47_17 Is there a link where I can watch it?
jay thats illegal mate :/
Jason's not to blame here. Weston let it happen and that's why he didn't have a chance to win in the end.
lol Ledge2King
People complain about m2k planking but westballz doesnt knew how to take space and approach safely.
In all games he got punished with shieldgrab and crouch cancel.
M2k just played the best strategy against that kind of player: punish bad approaches and wait. (besides, he just planked the last 3 minutes on game 5)
The shield grab is valid but in some cases you litteraly can't do much about crouch canceled moves to be fair.
Also imo it's the optimal strategy yes, he's playing for money obviously he's gonna go for it. But just like how Westballz should be prepared to get planked out in a serious match with money on the line, M2K should be prepared for the backlash that comes with him choosing to plank till almost a time out tbh. It's also a spectator e sport. I personally don't care to much since this isn't really new to M2K and this is how he made his living but he or anyone else shouldn't be suprised if he gets backlash for it, especially since he always likes say Puff should have an ledge grab limit rule or complain about wobbling while having no problem Sheik chaining someone into needle camps/ledge stalls when in advantage imo.
I finally got the chance to watch this set and thought M2K ledge stall'd for 6-8 minutos in the last game, for all the hate he received in the recent days. But no, people were a bit exaggerated. First 4 minutes of last game were a normal match, very close but M2K beat West in punish game, it was until 4:00 minutes when he started with the ledge stall for periods of like 10-20 secs, during 2:00-1:00 Westballz did nothing but tech skill spam wasting time. When he finally decided to fight, it was too late.
Anyway, Ledge grab limit is a good thing but I think M2K still would have won this set with that.
I think peopl are less upset that M2K WON from ledge camping but rather that he played this way only a week after he complained about others employing extremely lame/unfun tactics against him
Well, M2K was aware of that and posted on his twitter: Oh btw, last weekend changed my mentality on playing to win. If everyone else plays "lame" and wins, i should be allowed to too tbh.
GaryAndrés Argentic spanish?
I guess my "inglish" exposed me. hahaha
GaryAndrés Argentic I'm spanish too
I thought Mew2King was cool.... :(
he is. he wanted to win and he did what was necessary to acheive it
This is on westballz, not m2k. Fuck ledge grab limit, people need to stop complaining and learn how to deal with it instead.
Nicholas Krowicki you cant deal with it that's the point, he had 50 something seconds of invisibility
lets ban fox ledgedash then, upsmash while in invincibility seems totally fair
u can deal with fox ledgedash, no matter what option he does. it's very easy. this u cant deal with at all. u have to get lucky
So many people crying about the ledge stall, if it was that bad wes could've picked another character. No jons you play to win.
That timeout was actually Wes' fault.
What the he'll mew2king .. -.-
This is what Melee has become, eh? Disgraceful.
Calamari Cam Playing to win? UGHH I can't stand when people complain About that that mean needs to make his money.
Your comment plus name is golden. 10/10
@@ogot344 i know you commented this a year ago, but what provides the tournaments money is viewership and i doubt anyone wants to watch a match where someone stalls for ages. it might even be a reason why melee isn't at evo this year.
@@realykid Nintendo actually gave money to EVO because they didn't want Melee to compete in the same first EVO of Ultimate