People say its "too complicated" but Lutri should only be banned as a companion. You should be able to use Lutri as your commander or in the 99. By no means is Lutri broken as its just a Duelcaster mage that targets your own spells.
I would even say that 'companion' in general should just have commander specific rules: Much like the Background enchantments or partners you get to have a companion as a secondary commander but it means that you get one less card on the 99 instead and you still have to follow all of the rules companion asks for and potentially going down to 3 cards on the command zone if you *also* have partner commanders for example. The only objection would be to make it so the companion specifically have to follow color identity by the main commander and do not *establish* the color identity (So we can stop all Abzan commanders from becoming WUBRG almost by default with Lutri for example) This would probably eliminate the concern for Lutri: you wouldn't have an extra card to play with it would just go in your commander zone along with any other commander and would be subject to commander tax
Exactly. I'd go even further and say that, while people might say it's too complicated, nobody actually believes it. It's all just cope so they don't have to admit they were wrong about "Banned as Commander" being too complicated, when really it was only removed because they couldn't easily implement it in MTGO at the time. Almost every defense I've ever heard of the argument uses some theoretical "other" person, not a real human being who exists. On RARE occasion, people will point to a player who played with a card that they didn't realize was banned, but that situation would also happen regardless of whether it was banned in the 99. All it takes to fix this supposed "complicated" issue is adding an extra line to a page. If they can't read that one line, they can't read a banlist at all. The exact same argument they're making also implies that the banlist shouldn't exist at all.
it was never complicated at all and there was absolutely no reason they should of removed that from the format. one of the worst mistakes the rc has ever made
The banned list for simplicity does not make those distinctions. There are several cards on the banned list that would be OK in the 99 but were banned because of their impact as a Commander. Many people have asked for two banned lists in Commander (one for a 100% ban and the other that would only ban their use as a Commander (and could easily include Companions in that criteria).
I agree. The only real problem with Lutri in commander is that it's deckbuilding restriction is not a hindrance that must be worked around. Terrible design flaw
I'd even argue that it's the OLD companion text that is a problem on Lutri. Post-errata where it costs 3 generic to put your companion into your hand, it's a lot less of a problem. To combo with errata'd Lutri you need to have whatever you're copying on the stack and then pay six more for it - an amount of mana that probably deserves to do nuts things. If you split it up over turns it's a serious signal that your opponents should be watching, because obviously you've got something in-hand or some line that copying the spell is a big deal. One does not spend (3) idly just to move a card to hand.
@@51gunner Nah, it's problem is that there is no down side or deck building restriction with it as a companion for EDH. That's totally not okay. It would be 100% auto include and every URx deck has to have it or technically be worse than those that do. Every other companion is totally fine in EDH because there is a real cost to actually trying to use them, making them not auto include to their colors.
I wish they would make a "fixed" version of recurring nightmare. I think the text could stay exactly as is but have the colon moved so that the returning to hand was part of the effect and not the cost. And maybe make it not only at sorcery speed (or maybe leave it). But just moving that colon would completely fix it in my opinion as the only reason it's a problem is because returning to hand is part of the cost
You do have stuff like Hell's Caretaker which are similar but on a creature, but yeah even just giving it "when this enters, surveil 1" would be enough as you would need to wait for the trigger to resolve before activating it. It would also be interesting on a theoretical level as a card that's the same as another except for an additional entirely positive ability that would still not be strictly better than the original.
Great video as always. That being said, I can’t wrap my head around your rant on Time Walk, especially when a lot of cards that WERE on the list also “don’t end games the turn they’re played”, besides Coalition Victory and, arguably, Trade Secrets (which I will state I agree both are rightfully banned). Recurring Nightmare, Paradox Engine, and the best of all to me, Sylvan Primordial, are more banworthy to you than Time Walk, let alone the Power Nine? The argument, “If I cast a Time Walk on Turn Two, I’m not going to end the game” is a poor argument in my opinion. People don’t use extra turn spells like this…they use them when they have other things to do the turn they play them, only to untap literally every permanent and do more things immediately on the next turn. With an extra turn for the mere cost of two mana, you are opening yourself up to do many more things you would not normally be able to do in one turn. Furthermore, it would see play in every blue deck in my opinion if it wasn’t for the expensive price. Additionally, it is just like you said with Paradox Engine-you are not going to use Time Walk for, lack of a better term on my part, “healthy” reasons…you are going to use Time Walk to pretty much close out the game the turn it is cast once you have either A) Assembled the correct combo pieces, or B) Generate enough value off the turn it is cast to essentially win the game on your next turn, which you will immediately take. It also greatly extends the game for only one player, which is annoying, and the very reason people hate commanders like Narset, all while providing solitaire for the caster (the reason I personally dislike extra turn spells in general). There is a big reason extra turn spells cost at least double the mana cost of Time Walk (ex. Time Warp), and that’s because it greatly restricts the things the caster can perform on the turn the extra turn spell is cast. Just my opinion tho. tl;dr: Time Walk should definitely be banned.
@@edhdeckbuilding time walk being unbanned is wild to me but we all got our own opinions. Look forward to the video regardless cause I enjoy hearing others thoughts.
As someone who played a whole lot of sylvan primordial while it was legal, I actually think the biggest problem with the card was that it forced you to destroy something controlled by each opponent which meant that the one person who was invariably behind/mana screwed etc. still had to be kicked while they were down by the primordial player and that alone lead to a whole lot of "feels bad". With that said, I'd still be cool with unbanning it along with a bunch of other stuff to see how they hold up in the modern commander era (it still might be too much though to be fair). I also think you really underestimate how good "take an extra turn" would be at 2 mana. Less so because taking an extra turn on turn two would be that consistently great but because two mana is a super easy cost to cap off a big turn and then end the game, go off, go infinite, whatever.
My group ignores the banlist and we kind of have our own soft bans. We play recurring nightmare, prime time, emrakuul, tolarian academy and did allow griselbrand for a moment. We never allowed channel, gifts ungiven, yawgs bargain. Also we play no mass land shenanigans. Only single pieces for random cradles and coffers running around. Its a powerful pod but we dont combo off or lock any one out. Its fun stuff.
I agree on the Sylvan Primordial. I remember facing my friend's Roon deck and it was so brutal seeing that card come down and knowing we were all about to be wrecked from this value tempo swing that's repeatable
I like the idea of having separate banned lists for "Commander", "Companion", and "Main Deck". That way, Lutri could be just banned as a Companion, but legal as a commander or in your main deck. Obviously, Rule Zero covers this scenario, too, but it would be nice if it would be a little easier to handle that discussion when it comes time to sitting down to play. (Note: I'm using the term "Main Deck" and not "the 99", because a Commander main deck can easily have 97, 98, or 99 cards, depending on Partner commanders, Doctor/Companion pairings, Companion, "Choose a Background" commanders, etc.).
I think they need to have a separate format of Commander where there are no banned cards. My play group occasionally has a "banned cards" night where we play all the dumb broken cards like this and we have fun with it. We have Lutri and Golos players, Paradox Engines, Channels, etc. When everyone is playing broken things it doesnt feel that bad. We are doing degenerate things without these cards anyways so its just the cherry on top to get to use them sometimes.
See, while I don’t think the RC always makes great decisions about bans, your situation seems perfect for overriding the RC in your playgroup for the purposes of fun. That’s the whole point of this format anyways, so, in my opinion, for the purposes of the no-ban nights you have with your friends, you should treat the banlist as if it does not exist. Regardless, I would love to try a night like that with my playgroup, so I appreciate the good idea!
@@Jlizard27 Dont get me wrong you see real fast why these cards are banned lol, but its cool to see the new combos that come out of your deck when youre using them. And its not like if someone gets a Paradox Engine on the field the game is just over, it can still be removed by you average removal spells, Channel stills gets countered, etc. these cards act like a booster imo.
The Paradox Engine argument to me is my complaint about all blink decks I have ever played. Excessively long painful turns as the blink effect is used over and over again.
I think people approach how to counterplay Recurring nightmare wrong. You don't try to hit the enchantment, but instead play graveyard hate... like you do with pretty much any other recursion card
The fact that Sylvan Primordial costs 7 is completely undermined by the fact that it's a green creature card in Commander. Green players can get to 7 mana stupidly fast and find creatures very reliably. Ramp spells, mana dorks, the usual mana rocks... it's not hard to imagine this coming down on turn 5 with zero help from whatever card happened to be in the command zone. Green's even pretty good at recurring a creature out of its graveyard. Simic can bounce it to hand easily, Selesnya can flicker it, Golgari can reanimate it... it's just a gross card. Interesting take on Coalition Victory. Because it's an 8-mana WUBRG spell that can be interacted with by most colors (exile, destroy a permanent, bounce, counter, whatever) I'm not sure if it's too strong for the format exactly... but I do agree that it'll probably make for zero fun games. You resolve the spell, the game ends, yay? That doesn't need to be in the format.
Agree with all of these except Coalition Victory, simply because it's so easy to interact with by removing their 5-colour creature. I can also say with fair certainty that the proportion of people who would play it, were it to be unbanned, wouldn't be that high and would dwindle pretty rapidly once people have done it a few times. Therefore, in my opinion, it would be a fine card to unban. Side note on Time Walk: I think you're underestimating the huge advantage it gives you at any stage of the game when it's played. Played turn 2 it most likely equates to a 0-costed Explore (cantrips and allows an extra land drop), which is pretty mad. Mid game, because it's so cheap, it allows you to either develop your board more than you would otherwise, or interact with the board whilst developing your own, all with the added ability of an extra combat step to get more damage in, trigger things etc. Late game, the extra turn effect is similar to an Time Stretch because the turn you cast it you still have most of your mana available. It's extremely powerful and enables a lot of strong/winning plays at all power levels.
Sylvan Primordial is the one that I go: Yes this is *powerful* but is it really worst than playing against someone with an Eldrazi deck which is not only perfectly legal but even has a precon deck AND another one on the way real soon? Of course, if it was up to me I would find a way to ban or limit some of the Anihilator effects as we have em today instead but Sylvan Primordial coming back wouldn't be a tremendous impact imo. ...Maybe it would be so idk but still, in the game today dealing with destroy 3 permaments and ramp for 3 lands on ETB doesn't seems nearly as bad as 'Sacrifice 4 things on *attack*' or 'Mill 20 cards to exile on attack'
i think the problem is that most eldrazi need to be cast and/or attack in order to be devastating. sylvan primordial can be a blinky winky boi and wreck all opponents simultaneously
@@Zanzibawrr While there's arguably enough ways to get extra combats and haste in dedicated Eldrazi decks I can concede your point sure. So, between the lower cost and blink-ability I would say it would land up being about as powerful as some of the Eldrazi so I sorta think even conceding your observation it would still be ok for Sylvan Primordial to be unbanned in commander given today's power levels.
Lutri should only be banned as a companion. Not as a Commander or 1 of the 99. And Biorhythm is an uber fun way to win and cheesy and janky af. Thus it should be unbanned.
As someone who plays vintage cube i would jump with joy if my opponent goes for a turn 1 one Blightsteel instead of time walk, especially in commander where we have so much turn 1-2 removal
@@edhdeckbuilding or blue Chain of Vapor, String of Disappearance, Seal of Removal, etc which can be used offensive or defensively for your own things. Another reason is its much harder to build your around Tinker than building it around Time Walk. TW being recurred constantly definitely feels worse on the receiving end.
Random thought I had today was that i wondered if golos wouldnt have came out 3 years ago but today, would it still be banned? what do you think? still my favorite commander to this day, still sad it got banned
Allow me to paint a rude picture with the Sylvan Primordial, if do you have some way where he can't be Countered, in a Blue / Green Landfall Deck, and one of the Myriad ways to bounce him, a lot or even infinite... The Oracle Text says, "Non-Creature Permanent", ... How about I bounce him enough to destroy all my opponents lands while I have Dosan the Falling Leaf out?
See you find crazy synergies and combos by reading comments lol. I never even thought about that. But commander is such a game with legendary unforgettable experience that can scar you. It’s important for new players to know the banned list because it’s tempting to add them to your deck when you never knew they existed and the card is somewhat budget.
Your argument is a color specific multi card late game combo. How about they play Armageddon and do the same thing you just described with a single card?
@@eewweeppkk It's not really late game, I can have a Prowling Serpapod, Dosan, or Yeva out pretty early in a Blue / Green Landfall Deck, and of Course, you can easily tutor him up in those colors, and have plenty of defensive options. I'm not saying it's bulletproof, I'm saying it's not fun if it happens, and taking the Sylvan Primordial out of the Equation makes that possiblity less painful to play against. That's the point of the Ban List. Honestly, there's a CEDH Deck called Flash Hulk that wins on 1st turn, and again, the Card that was identified as the Problem, Protean Hulk, was banned. I personally disagree with that, I think Flash is the Problem, paying 1 and a Blue at instant speed for any creature is insane.
@@eewweeppkkArmageddon is land destruction and very frowned upon. Sylvan Primordial is a choice. You play it and stare you opponent in the eye until they break and say “NO! Not my lands!” 😂
Hot take i agree with time walk. I think its banned purely for its mana cost, but early game, it isnt super impactful, and late game, i don't think its any different than the miracle extra turn. The miracle one isn't banned lol
Time walk is much easier to replay over and over again. It is also much easier to find from mass draw spells. If not for the price and the general stigma against extra turn spells, if it was unbanned then every blue deck would play it.
I'm glad you didn't mention Flash in this list. In fact, if you're not already considering it for the unban list, I would recommend Flash as one of the options. They gave in to CEDH players and ended up banning the wrong card. Protean Hulk has, and still is, the combo piece that's continued to be easy to cheat out and win games.
Both are the problem card in Flash Hulk, it's either ban Hulk, or ban Flash, one has to be banned, and banning Flash still leaves Hulk combos as a fun interesting thing you can do, but powers it down to an appropriate level. I get that Flash would be a very fun card (Id love it in my reanimator lists), but Hulk can also be a very fun card in the exact same decks you play Flash in. Also Hulk by itself is only very fringely playable in cEDH, it's a balanced card within the format at the highest power level. Basically it's either ban a reanimator/big mana toolbox-y card in Flash (That has replacements like Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Through the Breach, etc.) or ban the combo card Hulk (That kills any decks that would want to use Hulk as a wincon in mainly cEDH) but hulk can also be a very fun card to use in reanimator or sac focused decks outside of cEDH. You lose something either way. I'd say the bans roughly hurt equal amounts of decks in EDH, but in cEDH Flash is the appropriate ban because Hulk will see an interesting amount of fringe play in cEDH without Flash.
@casuallydone468 Flash isn't really a problem though. As you said, it has replacements for its effect, and it doesn't have practically any specific combos that can work since the creature is sacrificed in the resolution, meaning they only get their etb triggers. Hulk is the combo piece. Hulk has many other means to be cheated out and do the very thing cEDH players didn't like. People don't use Hulk for fun and interesting interactions. They use it for winning the game in a near uninteractable way. Name a single winning combo Flash enables outside Hulk Flash.
@ODedonlife Hulk is fine right now in cEDH ask anyone, Brainfreeze and Thoracle are both stronger wincons in it. Even Heliod probably is. Hulk shouldnt be unplayable in cEDH it enables decks that wouldnt otherwise be playable and is one of 2 combos (Food chain being the other) that make green worth playing. Hulk is the combo piece but Flash is the pushed card that enabled it to be degenerate in cEDH, there is literally no other card currently enabling it to go infinite for 2 mana at instant speed, Flash's specific wording is what made it op.
The difficulty of removing Recurring Nightmare is a little weak argument imo since Ward gets slapped onto everything and their dog recently. Also you have more windows of opportunity to respond to it wether by killing the sacrifice fodder or exiling valuable targets from the graveyard. You don't specifically need counter magic to handle it. And if a player has Recurring Nightmare and a game winning combo ready there a three other players who have a say in that not just one who has to have the right answer at the right time.
"killing the sacrifice fodder", you would need to kill every creature they control before Recurring Nightmare hits the battlefield for that to actually work. Not many decks, especially casual, have the ability to wrath a player's creatures at instant speed. Mass graveyard exile at instant speed is a bit easier, but then you have to also find an enchantment removal that exiles before the Nightmare player can put another target in their graveyard. The stupidity of having the card bounce itself as part of the cost is worth banning alone just for the confusion is causes even to long-time players, but that's on top of how annoying the card is at constantly churning out fatties from the graveyard every turn for just 4 mana and some creature tokens.
we have tons of grave hate nowadays and much of it is colorless. RN isn't even the best reanimate spell in black, reanimate, dance of the dead are both cheaper and can target other people's yards. Necromancy costs the same but can be used at instant speed and targets other yard's as well. In the interest of shrinking the banned list I think it should come off, the only good reason is that it's repetitive if it's left unchecked.
@@voidprism_studios666 you heard me say "color heavy but instant speed" right? I do run slimefoot and squee as a commander, but it isnt a replacement for strands of the night. For starters using strands of the night 4x at instant speed in monoblack is likely to kill someone who didnt realize they would need 4 or 5 blockers out of nowhere.
@@voidprism_studios666 also: you cant fire off recurring nightmare that many times at instant speed. it recurrs one thing and only one thing normally, and so does slimefoot and squee. Strands just asks how much you're willing to pay for all your best graveyard creatures to be back on the battlefield right here and now.
well recurring nightmare and slime foot go infinite with a ham sandwich. the one at a time argument doesn't make much sense. slimefoot is the replacement or closest looking thing to nightmare, not strands, thats why I mentioned it. strands is bottlenecked by life and more so swamps. and in the niche case you want to put your creatures in at the beginning of combat you still need haste. Strands is cool though if you got Krrik, Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth and haste I guess@@alansmithee920
I love strands, but that sac a swamp can be a hefty price tag. For me, I run Victimize with Eternal Witness in my Slimefoot and Squee deck instead. With a sac outlet and Eternal Witness, Victimize pretty much becomes Recurring Nightmare.
My hot take is that Lutri should just be unbanned. The rules committee doesn't want to have banned as commander cards yet people want to play the cute otter as a commander. We should just let them have their aquatic mustelidae. Yes, everyone URx player is going to shove Lutri into the Companion zone. And that is where she will stay for the entire game.
@@edhdeckbuildingOh trust me, I know. Friend of mine was playing Prosper, Tome Bound, played dockside, sawed it in half, played Underworld Breech, and did it all over again. I was more talking about banned cards that need to stay banned as per the video's title. :)
@@edhdeckbuildingI mean I'm not disagreeing with you lol. I just argued that Sundering Titan is probably a little worse to play against than Sylvan Primordial.
Someone help me understand plz. I just gotten back in mtg 3 weeks ago. Last time before 3 weeks i played was a decade ago. I am now aware of the format EDH aka Commander. I was lead to believe this format is a freestyle format that’s suppose to be casual and fun. So a banned list doesn’t exist for it. Am i right? Nothing is banned in commander bkuz it isn’t competitive. I jus happen to have 2 of those card in the video and main man is telling me i cant play em?
There is a banlist for it that is mainly focused around cards that the commander rules committee thinks lead to unfun play patterns. They can sometimes be somewhat inconsistent with the policy and of course given that it's a casual format you can play whatever your playgroup is okay with (I even have a commander deck led by a legendary creature from an un-set), but it does help a bit to have a shared foundation for when you play with strangers.
I just knew that Upheaval would be #1. Boy was I wrong. Wtbs, not sure how Upheaval didn't make the list. It's definitely an "I Win Immediately" card in Commander
Back when it was printed, you only tutored for Phyrexian Processor or Memory Jar(A few others may be escaping memory). I feel like Jar was banned immediately so you couldn't even tutor for that. Infect is an attribute that should've never been created. It should absolutely be raised to 20 infect in commander. That said, if Colossus didn't exist, I wonder for what people would tinker early game.
The number one card that needs to stay banned is limited resources, not only is it a mass land destruction spell it is also an enchantment that stops people from playing lands, it also wasn’t designed for commander so everyone gets stuck with two lands and only two colors can interact with it. Oh and it only costs one mana, what a miserable card
I feel like if the problem with lutri is this clear cut, then companion should limit the total deck size just like partners do. Lutri would have no reason to be banned
Recurring Nightmare was a pivotal understanding for me as a player. I used to want it back because it's a monoblack flicker effect. Very useful. Then I learned its unfair timing complications, combo potential, and option to revive other creatures, not just the original target. Its a sad truth in this game: greedy players will use a card for outrageous plays that average players don't even think of. Perhaps we'll get a "fixed" version of it someday. One that can be responded to and isn't so combotastic.
Yeah idk why people think that coalition victory would be fine. Imagine you play vs a 5c deck. Lots of creatures of often JUST THEIR COMMANDER threatens the win immediately the next turn. 1 card in hand, 1 life, doesn't matter This card would be frustrating
I’m highly against bans in commander, that was the whole point of the format is that you can use any card however, you want whenever you want. I think only cards that break the fundamental spirit of commander should be banned and there’s only really one or two of those cards.
The only reason I think coalition victory ahould be banned is the new leyline. Otherwise its super risky to play as everyone holds up one mana to remove the one single 5 color creature. Again thorracle exists for 3 mana win from hand.
So what I never got about Recurring Nightmare, it is an immensely powerful card (Mainly because it's recursive reanimation), but the thing is you can respond to Recurring Nightmare just as much as a Reanimate (Except you can also stifle it). If recurring nightmare was a sorcery that sacced and reanimate a creature, and then buybacked itself it would function effectively the exact same way, and to me (And both legacy and vintage playable) every 1-2 mana animate is just still better than it, and i think even in commander victimize is probably just better. Particularly Reanimate is still just better than Recurring Nightmare, if Reanimate is fine Recurring is too.
You can respond to the effect but you can't really prevent the sacrifice or the returning to the hand. So yeah you can stop the creature coming back more or less but the RN is still back in hand and can be used again. The only real way to stop it is by using a counter spell
@lucasperrella9280 And how exactly is that different from a traditional reanimation spell aside from getting it back. Once again, not saying it's not very powerful that it is recursive, but this format has access to Reanimate, Life // Death, Exhume, Corpse Dance, Animate Dead, Etc. Which legacy formats have determined is better than getting it multiple times
@@casuallydone468 I completely see your points and i agree, those are probably better options. I just think the recurability of RN is what puts it over the edge. You don't need to spend resources to get it back to hand and with the example of corpse dance, its already 2 mana cheaper with buyback in consideration.
Recurring nightmare. People have to get over you can’t destroy it because the cost is the bouncing. Think about it like this. Recurring nightmare is a slightly worse sorcery spell. There is so much graveyard hate in the format that this is not as brutal as it used to be to be
It is a basic land, but it doesn't have a type. There are technically 11 basic lands thanks to the snow-covered basics, but there are only 5 basic land types.
With how Commander is now, Paradox Engine can come off the list. It would come back to an environment that's just as fast as it used to be before the banning, plus the environment has more removal overall. I'm not saying it wouldn't win games, just that it would be one in a countless number of degenerate ways to win games. Having just Paradox Engine on the ban list serves no purpose, and there's likely too many other cards that meet the same criteria as Paradox Engine that aren't banned, so the more realistic approach is to just unban Paradox Engine.
Let me try to sway you back to unbanning reoccurring nightmare. You said that the only reason it should be banned because it was a card that was going to be an auto include. I dont think that is a good enough reason to ban something. For instance a craterhoof behemoth is an auto include or at really should be for power level and it is not really restricted to any stipulation except that i have some creatures in play. You said that it is hard to interact with this card and i beg to differ. You have three options to dealing with this card 1. Stiffle the trigger (not so good for reasons you mentioned) 2. Exile the persons graveyard, every color has very good graveyard exile effects in the form of colorless cards 3. Straight up counter it, if the enchantment is used in mono black ain't no way you are getting it back. For Craterhoof on the other hand there are ways to interact, but they are on a less generic scale 1. Stiffle the effect (only in blue) 2. Counter it (only in blue or niche black, red and white cards) 3. Fog the damage (only in green/white and niche black and red) 4. Board wipe them at instant speed (only predominant in blue and white). Lastly it's three mana and you do have to sacrifice a creature and already have one in the graveyard to activate. I am fine with banning auto includes if there is something else that is agregious causing it to be too OP or make the game unfun, but reoccurring nightmare is neither of those. Yes it is good but not OP. And i don't believe it to be unfun like Prophet of Kruphix or Paradox Engine. Thanks for reading!
Gotta disagree on coalition victory. Its probably the single most interactable win the game card in the game. Spot removal is practially a counterspell to it, so every color (besides red) should be able to easily interact with it on the stack. There are plenty of combos that just happen anyway so one that is so easily disrupted would be fine. Its also 8 mana
@edhdeckbuilding I agree with you on it being lame, but from a power perspective it shouldn't be banned. And from a fun perspective, far less fun win the game cards already exist in the format. Looking at thoracle
The companion mechanic should be banned. Not the cards themselves. You didn't mention the companion errata that makes them all worse anyway. Also. Trade secrets was banned cause you just draw half your deck and the person that cast the card just looses unless they have lab man out. Unlikely to stay on the field if it was cast.
I’ll never forget my friend winning on my upkeep with paradox engine when I was about to win with revel in riches. Also I think prime time should be unbanned
Sylvan Primordial I can understand but I absolutely think Primeval Titan should be unbanned. Power creep has caught up and my guy has done his time. I’ll die on this hill.
@@shorewall While I’d be absolutely fine with that being a house rule, I don’t think it would be completely necessary. 6 mana to get any 2 lands in your deck onto the battlefield tapped isn’t as wild as it was back then nowadays. Of course you can break this if your deck is built to, but for the most part, I just want to run it as a big body ramp piece so just searching for basic lands would be cool with me. Plus, it would just be a hot bed for removal anyway.
I can't say i agree with the decision behind lutri. If the logic for banning lutri is "it gives you an extra card", then shouldn't partners and backgrounds also be banned? Those are extra cards, and unlike lutri, they are recurring.
They are not free. They require you to play another partner or a card with "choose a background" which (theoretically) would balance it out. They also require you to not play a different commander. Lutri has no deck building requirements (outside of petitioners or dragon's approach) only color requirements. Every deck in blue and red should run lutri, but not every one should, or even can, run Kraum or Ludevic.
They could easily unban Lutri by just removing the companion mechanic from the format and just making it work like it should in EDH, which doesn't have sideboards and therefore shouldn't allow companions to be played in the command zone at all.
While I agree with banning companion as a mechanic, I do want to say it is at least not as bad after they changed how companion works (it no longer works as printed on the cards), also they aren't ever in the command zone. They exist outside of any game zones.
Recurring Nightmare is banned because it is difficult to interact with (outside of counterspells). Thassa's Oracle isn't banned, while being difficult to interact with. Double standard.
Shararzard not only needs to be unbanned but it should be impossible to concede just the sub game. Either you give up the game or you dont non of this "ill just lose 10 life" nonsense.
I can't see Karakas ever being unbanned for EDH lol. Fastbond would be interesting haha also Tinker could be abused so much I'm glad to see it stay banned
You already start the game with an 8th card, your commander. Partners give you nine. Lutri at least costs 3 mana to get and you’re never casting it just for the body, so it’s just a 6 mana copy target spell. I have one deck I’d consider playing it in. I want them to unban it for at least a year so people can see how little of an issue it is.
The issue is diversity. 6 mana copy spell isn't the greatest in the world, but literally every single deck in the game that has red/blue colors is not optimal if they don't run it. There would be literally no additional cost. You just get an extra card every single game. Doesn't take a deck slot, is guaranteed from the start. I agree that the card itself isn't a crazy problem, but the fact is that there is zero reason not to run it for every izzet+ deck, and that's a horrible way to design a card. It would be in more izzet decks than sol ring, except given it's rarity, it would cost over a hundred dollars easily.
@@eewweeppkk I don’t actually believe that every deck that could run it would. And if I were to entertain that argument you would need to ban mana crypt and sol ring first. Partners/backgrounds also give you an extra card and they’re not banned. This kind of inconsistency is all over the current banlist.
@DanielEvanClarke You aren't understanding the problem. Lutri is a 101st card. Partners are not, backgrounds are not. They require a card slot and a special commander to be available in the first place. Mana crypt and sol ring already ARE considered by many to be ban worthy first of all, and second of all they take a card slot and must be drawn into. Lurtri is a completely free (in terms of deck construction) 8th starting card that takes no deck slot. Every deck that has blue/red is not optimal if they do not have a Lutri, because it is a 100% risk-free, resource-free, additional 101st card, unlike every other example you mentioned.
@DanielEvanClarke That's not true, companions don't count against deck size and even if they DID it would still be a way to guaranteed thin your deck by one card even if you never cast it, making your deck more consistent for completely free. As it is its just a totally free additional guaranteed resource every single game you can have.
Sylvan and Prime Time are kind of two sides of the same coin, both are equally as bad for different reasons. Sylvan as you mentioned just completely shuts out games and creates a HUGE tempo advantage just cheating it constantly. Prime Time essentially just makes the game completely revolve around it, be it the player using it abusing it's effect, other players attempting to steal it, managing to give it haste or extra combats to just run away with the game. Also note that Prime Time is ANY land card which also makes it objectively better since you hunt down your strip mines, ancient tomb, etc whatever utility land you need. I'd say both still need to stay on the list, though which is worse kind of depends on what kind of playgroup you have. As someone who sees a LOT of utility lands, Prime Time would definitely be worse to see across the table personally since most of those lands don't have typing. Also Time Walk is banned probably specifically due to Isochron Scepter... and maybe price lol.
Golos my boy needs to comeback cause wizards played y'all who made Golos. They just Banned him and then make you pay to make a different five colour commander...
That's the problem though, EDH is a casual format that doesn't use sideboards... Therefore the rules state that it just exists outside of the game and not in the sideboard.
In regards to Coalition Victory, there are plenty of non-banned low cost 2-card infinite combos that effectively may as well read “You win the game”… Just as an example, if you are playing Shalai and Hallar and you cast All Will Be One. That’s only 5 CMC not 8 and you do infinite damage (Technically, you need to be able to do 1 damage or get a single counter in a deck designed to do that to trigger the infinite loop; I can hardly think of an easier condition to meet). I see no benefit from removing the card from the ban list (the card offers nothing to better the game) but it does not need to be banned for being too powerful.
I would say it's more a toxic play pattern than power level. It combos with any 5 color commander that is actually 5 colors. Because of this and the fact that it doesn't really telegraph itself, it makes 5 color commanders mostly kill on sight. It also has the problem of it either winning the game on the spot or doing literally nothing whereas most of the other combos do something on their own or give time to stop them.
@@seandun7083 There are many easier combos that offer no chance at interaction (aside from counterspells) and win the game far easier but have not been banned. I’m not sure how this card doing nothing unless it wins the game is an argument for it to remain on the ban list. That’s just a reason to not want to play it.
unpopular opinion: i don't think that the golos, tireless pilgrim ban was deserved. i have two friends in my playgroup with golos decks and it was bearable to play gainst them :D i think that commanders like tergrid, chulane, lord xander, miirym, prosper, urza ( just to name a few) are way worse to handle. we don't play cedh but with powerlevel-decks above 6-8ish and we don't think that golos was the main-threat on the table when someone played him. but i also admit that many of those commanders and scenarios are situation dependant and not every round is like the other :D
Golos was not banned because of power level. He was banned because of deck diversity. He was by far the best choice for 5 color decks, and it's really hard to deny that. He made every 5 color deck somewhat homogeneous in play pattern. "Play a Golos package, play good stuff, value town."
@@ebbandfloatzelyeah i know and the fact is true that he is kind of a limitation deckbuilding wise. the thing for me is that other 5-color commanders also have kind of limitations play-wise and strategy-wise, at the end of the day it always depends on how you approach deckbuilding. najeela, sisay, morophon and jodah are also kinda limited, if you go for the obvious playstyle and strategies to get value fast. it's nitpicky i know :D but it's just my opinion about golos
#FREELUTRI The idea that "banned as companion" (or "banned as commander," for that matter) is too complicated is a straight-up lie. If you can understand a game as complicated as Magic, you can read a single extra line of text on a banlist.
Companion shouldnt even work in commander. We dont sideboards to begin with. I dont know why they made up a whole zone just to make companion work when wishing and learning all do nothing.
Lutri is more of a fake Boogeyman than Jace, the mind sculptor. If it was unbanned it would probably have the exact same life as Jace did played for 2 weeks then forgotten
@@crazydeadperson You can choose to start the game with an emblem with the text: "{6}: Create a 3/2 red and blue otter creature token. Activate only once" Do you? No one is arguing that it's an especially good card, it's just that there is NO reason not to play it if you meet the requirements, which any UR deck has to go out of their way to avoid.
People say its "too complicated" but Lutri should only be banned as a companion. You should be able to use Lutri as your commander or in the 99. By no means is Lutri broken as its just a Duelcaster mage that targets your own spells.
I would even say that 'companion' in general should just have commander specific rules: Much like the Background enchantments or partners you get to have a companion as a secondary commander but it means that you get one less card on the 99 instead and you still have to follow all of the rules companion asks for and potentially going down to 3 cards on the command zone if you *also* have partner commanders for example. The only objection would be to make it so the companion specifically have to follow color identity by the main commander and do not *establish* the color identity (So we can stop all Abzan commanders from becoming WUBRG almost by default with Lutri for example)
This would probably eliminate the concern for Lutri: you wouldn't have an extra card to play with it would just go in your commander zone along with any other commander and would be subject to commander tax
Exactly. I'd go even further and say that, while people might say it's too complicated, nobody actually believes it.
It's all just cope so they don't have to admit they were wrong about "Banned as Commander" being too complicated, when really it was only removed because they couldn't easily implement it in MTGO at the time.
Almost every defense I've ever heard of the argument uses some theoretical "other" person, not a real human being who exists. On RARE occasion, people will point to a player who played with a card that they didn't realize was banned, but that situation would also happen regardless of whether it was banned in the 99. All it takes to fix this supposed "complicated" issue is adding an extra line to a page. If they can't read that one line, they can't read a banlist at all. The exact same argument they're making also implies that the banlist shouldn't exist at all.
it was never complicated at all and there was absolutely no reason they should of removed that from the format. one of the worst mistakes the rc has ever made
The banned list for simplicity does not make those distinctions. There are several cards on the banned list that would be OK in the 99 but were banned because of their impact as a Commander. Many people have asked for two banned lists in Commander (one for a 100% ban and the other that would only ban their use as a Commander (and could easily include Companions in that criteria).
I agree. The only real problem with Lutri in commander is that it's deckbuilding restriction is not a hindrance that must be worked around. Terrible design flaw
Lutri just needs to be banded from being a companion. Seems totally fine in the 99
I'd even argue that it's the OLD companion text that is a problem on Lutri. Post-errata where it costs 3 generic to put your companion into your hand, it's a lot less of a problem. To combo with errata'd Lutri you need to have whatever you're copying on the stack and then pay six more for it - an amount of mana that probably deserves to do nuts things.
If you split it up over turns it's a serious signal that your opponents should be watching, because obviously you've got something in-hand or some line that copying the spell is a big deal. One does not spend (3) idly just to move a card to hand.
@@51gunner good point, plus you can only put him into your hand at sorcery speed.
@@51gunner
Nah, it's problem is that there is no down side or deck building restriction with it as a companion for EDH. That's totally not okay. It would be 100% auto include and every URx deck has to have it or technically be worse than those that do.
Every other companion is totally fine in EDH because there is a real cost to actually trying to use them, making them not auto include to their colors.
20:19 lay line of the guildpact makes it significantly better too
Who else heard him say Lutri is an "otter include" 😆
Sylvan Primordial needs it's ability fixed to say 'if it was cast' and it would be fine.
*from your hand
Mever expected to type this, but in the defense of tinker, artifacts before urza's block were not great to put it mildly.
I wish they would make a "fixed" version of recurring nightmare. I think the text could stay exactly as is but have the colon moved so that the returning to hand was part of the effect and not the cost. And maybe make it not only at sorcery speed (or maybe leave it). But just moving that colon would completely fix it in my opinion as the only reason it's a problem is because returning to hand is part of the cost
You do have stuff like Hell's Caretaker which are similar but on a creature, but yeah even just giving it "when this enters, surveil 1" would be enough as you would need to wait for the trigger to resolve before activating it.
It would also be interesting on a theoretical level as a card that's the same as another except for an additional entirely positive ability that would still not be strictly better than the original.
Great video as always. That being said, I can’t wrap my head around your rant on Time Walk, especially when a lot of cards that WERE on the list also “don’t end games the turn they’re played”, besides Coalition Victory and, arguably, Trade Secrets (which I will state I agree both are rightfully banned). Recurring Nightmare, Paradox Engine, and the best of all to me, Sylvan Primordial, are more banworthy to you than Time Walk, let alone the Power Nine? The argument, “If I cast a Time Walk on Turn Two, I’m not going to end the game” is a poor argument in my opinion. People don’t use extra turn spells like this…they use them when they have other things to do the turn they play them, only to untap literally every permanent and do more things immediately on the next turn. With an extra turn for the mere cost of two mana, you are opening yourself up to do many more things you would not normally be able to do in one turn. Furthermore, it would see play in every blue deck in my opinion if it wasn’t for the expensive price. Additionally, it is just like you said with Paradox Engine-you are not going to use Time Walk for, lack of a better term on my part, “healthy” reasons…you are going to use Time Walk to pretty much close out the game the turn it is cast once you have either A) Assembled the correct combo pieces, or B) Generate enough value off the turn it is cast to essentially win the game on your next turn, which you will immediately take. It also greatly extends the game for only one player, which is annoying, and the very reason people hate commanders like Narset, all while providing solitaire for the caster (the reason I personally dislike extra turn spells in general). There is a big reason extra turn spells cost at least double the mana cost of Time Walk (ex. Time Warp), and that’s because it greatly restricts the things the caster can perform on the turn the extra turn spell is cast.
Just my opinion tho.
tl;dr:
Time Walk should definitely be banned.
well you're not gonna love my next video.
@@edhdeckbuilding time walk being unbanned is wild to me but we all got our own opinions. Look forward to the video regardless cause I enjoy hearing others thoughts.
As a casual player I'd prefer ALL extra turn effects to be banned, or at least the ones that don't exile themself.
@@Shimatzu95 an idea I wouldn’t be opposed to personally.
As someone who played a whole lot of sylvan primordial while it was legal, I actually think the biggest problem with the card was that it forced you to destroy something controlled by each opponent which meant that the one person who was invariably behind/mana screwed etc. still had to be kicked while they were down by the primordial player and that alone lead to a whole lot of "feels bad". With that said, I'd still be cool with unbanning it along with a bunch of other stuff to see how they hold up in the modern commander era (it still might be too much though to be fair).
I also think you really underestimate how good "take an extra turn" would be at 2 mana. Less so because taking an extra turn on turn two would be that consistently great but because two mana is a super easy cost to cap off a big turn and then end the game, go off, go infinite, whatever.
My group ignores the banlist and we kind of have our own soft bans. We play recurring nightmare, prime time, emrakuul, tolarian academy and did allow griselbrand for a moment. We never allowed channel, gifts ungiven, yawgs bargain. Also we play no mass land shenanigans. Only single pieces for random cradles and coffers running around. Its a powerful pod but we dont combo off or lock any one out. Its fun stuff.
Where’s your iconic theme song? 😢
Foreal i was let down
Very sad 😞
Bring it back 😡😢😥😨😰
I agree on the Sylvan Primordial. I remember facing my friend's Roon deck and it was so brutal seeing that card come down and knowing we were all about to be wrecked from this value tempo swing that's repeatable
Sylvan primordial should have been a cast trigger, that said prime titan is probably still worse, simply due to the existence os so many busted lands.
I like the idea of having separate banned lists for "Commander", "Companion", and "Main Deck". That way, Lutri could be just banned as a Companion, but legal as a commander or in your main deck. Obviously, Rule Zero covers this scenario, too, but it would be nice if it would be a little easier to handle that discussion when it comes time to sitting down to play. (Note: I'm using the term "Main Deck" and not "the 99", because a Commander main deck can easily have 97, 98, or 99 cards, depending on Partner commanders, Doctor/Companion pairings, Companion, "Choose a Background" commanders, etc.).
I think they need to have a separate format of Commander where there are no banned cards. My play group occasionally has a "banned cards" night where we play all the dumb broken cards like this and we have fun with it. We have Lutri and Golos players, Paradox Engines, Channels, etc. When everyone is playing broken things it doesnt feel that bad. We are doing degenerate things without these cards anyways so its just the cherry on top to get to use them sometimes.
See, while I don’t think the RC always makes great decisions about bans, your situation seems perfect for overriding the RC in your playgroup for the purposes of fun. That’s the whole point of this format anyways, so, in my opinion, for the purposes of the no-ban nights you have with your friends, you should treat the banlist as if it does not exist. Regardless, I would love to try a night like that with my playgroup, so I appreciate the good idea!
@@Jlizard27 Dont get me wrong you see real fast why these cards are banned lol, but its cool to see the new combos that come out of your deck when youre using them. And its not like if someone gets a Paradox Engine on the field the game is just over, it can still be removed by you average removal spells, Channel stills gets countered, etc. these cards act like a booster imo.
The Paradox Engine argument to me is my complaint about all blink decks I have ever played. Excessively long painful turns as the blink effect is used over and over again.
I think people approach how to counterplay Recurring nightmare wrong. You don't try to hit the enchantment, but instead play graveyard hate... like you do with pretty much any other recursion card
The fact that Sylvan Primordial costs 7 is completely undermined by the fact that it's a green creature card in Commander. Green players can get to 7 mana stupidly fast and find creatures very reliably. Ramp spells, mana dorks, the usual mana rocks... it's not hard to imagine this coming down on turn 5 with zero help from whatever card happened to be in the command zone. Green's even pretty good at recurring a creature out of its graveyard. Simic can bounce it to hand easily, Selesnya can flicker it, Golgari can reanimate it... it's just a gross card.
Interesting take on Coalition Victory. Because it's an 8-mana WUBRG spell that can be interacted with by most colors (exile, destroy a permanent, bounce, counter, whatever) I'm not sure if it's too strong for the format exactly... but I do agree that it'll probably make for zero fun games. You resolve the spell, the game ends, yay? That doesn't need to be in the format.
Agree with all of these except Coalition Victory, simply because it's so easy to interact with by removing their 5-colour creature. I can also say with fair certainty that the proportion of people who would play it, were it to be unbanned, wouldn't be that high and would dwindle pretty rapidly once people have done it a few times. Therefore, in my opinion, it would be a fine card to unban.
Side note on Time Walk: I think you're underestimating the huge advantage it gives you at any stage of the game when it's played. Played turn 2 it most likely equates to a 0-costed Explore (cantrips and allows an extra land drop), which is pretty mad. Mid game, because it's so cheap, it allows you to either develop your board more than you would otherwise, or interact with the board whilst developing your own, all with the added ability of an extra combat step to get more damage in, trigger things etc. Late game, the extra turn effect is similar to an Time Stretch because the turn you cast it you still have most of your mana available. It's extremely powerful and enables a lot of strong/winning plays at all power levels.
Sylvan Primordial is the one that I go: Yes this is *powerful* but is it really worst than playing against someone with an Eldrazi deck which is not only perfectly legal but even has a precon deck AND another one on the way real soon?
Of course, if it was up to me I would find a way to ban or limit some of the Anihilator effects as we have em today instead but Sylvan Primordial coming back wouldn't be a tremendous impact imo.
...Maybe it would be so idk but still, in the game today dealing with destroy 3 permaments and ramp for 3 lands on ETB doesn't seems nearly as bad as 'Sacrifice 4 things on *attack*' or 'Mill 20 cards to exile on attack'
i think the problem is that most eldrazi need to be cast and/or attack in order to be devastating. sylvan primordial can be a blinky winky boi and wreck all opponents simultaneously
@@Zanzibawrr While there's arguably enough ways to get extra combats and haste in dedicated Eldrazi decks I can concede your point sure.
So, between the lower cost and blink-ability I would say it would land up being about as powerful as some of the Eldrazi so I sorta think even conceding your observation it would still be ok for Sylvan Primordial to be unbanned in commander given today's power levels.
I don't mind cards that say you win if....usually the conditions are not easy, plus some games take way to long and need to come to an end.
Lutri should only be banned as a companion. Not as a Commander or 1 of the 99.
And Biorhythm is an uber fun way to win and cheesy and janky af. Thus it should be unbanned.
As someone who plays vintage cube i would jump with joy if my opponent goes for a turn 1 one Blightsteel instead of time walk, especially in commander where we have so much turn 1-2 removal
well you better be playing white or you're screwed.
@@edhdeckbuilding or blue Chain of Vapor, String of Disappearance, Seal of Removal, etc which can be used offensive or defensively for your own things. Another reason is its much harder to build your around Tinker than building it around Time Walk. TW being recurred constantly definitely feels worse on the receiving end.
Contract from below would be a nice unban
😂
Random thought I had today was that i wondered if golos wouldnt have came out 3 years ago but today, would it still be banned? what do you think? still my favorite commander to this day, still sad it got banned
yes it would be the thing that got him banned didnt change and well will never change
Allow me to paint a rude picture with the Sylvan Primordial, if do you have some way where he can't be Countered, in a Blue / Green Landfall Deck, and one of the Myriad ways to bounce him, a lot or even infinite... The Oracle Text says, "Non-Creature Permanent", ... How about I bounce him enough to destroy all my opponents lands while I have Dosan the Falling Leaf out?
See you find crazy synergies and combos by reading comments lol. I never even thought about that. But commander is such a game with legendary unforgettable experience that can scar you. It’s important for new players to know the banned list because it’s tempting to add them to your deck when you never knew they existed and the card is somewhat budget.
Your argument is a color specific multi card late game combo.
How about they play Armageddon and do the same thing you just described with a single card?
@@eewweeppkk It's not really late game, I can have a Prowling Serpapod, Dosan, or Yeva out pretty early in a Blue / Green Landfall Deck, and of Course, you can easily tutor him up in those colors, and have plenty of defensive options. I'm not saying it's bulletproof, I'm saying it's not fun if it happens, and taking the Sylvan Primordial out of the Equation makes that possiblity less painful to play against. That's the point of the Ban List. Honestly, there's a CEDH Deck called Flash Hulk that wins on 1st turn, and again, the Card that was identified as the Problem, Protean Hulk, was banned. I personally disagree with that, I think Flash is the Problem, paying 1 and a Blue at instant speed for any creature is insane.
The evil is right with this one 😈
@@eewweeppkkArmageddon is land destruction and very frowned upon. Sylvan Primordial is a choice. You play it and stare you opponent in the eye until they break and say “NO! Not my lands!” 😂
I played paradox engine in a elf ball deck with beast whisper and ya that was insane especially when i got crossroads out
Paradox engine in my Zagras, Thief of heartbeats pinger deck was amazing.
I really miss the 10 cards videos
might revisit it again.
Hot take i agree with time walk. I think its banned purely for its mana cost, but early game, it isnt super impactful, and late game, i don't think its any different than the miracle extra turn. The miracle one isn't banned lol
Time walk is much easier to replay over and over again. It is also much easier to find from mass draw spells. If not for the price and the general stigma against extra turn spells, if it was unbanned then every blue deck would play it.
what about cards that need to be banned like tassa combo?
I'm glad you didn't mention Flash in this list. In fact, if you're not already considering it for the unban list, I would recommend Flash as one of the options. They gave in to CEDH players and ended up banning the wrong card. Protean Hulk has, and still is, the combo piece that's continued to be easy to cheat out and win games.
already did that video. and yes it's on there.
Both are the problem card in Flash Hulk, it's either ban Hulk, or ban Flash, one has to be banned, and banning Flash still leaves Hulk combos as a fun interesting thing you can do, but powers it down to an appropriate level. I get that Flash would be a very fun card (Id love it in my reanimator lists), but Hulk can also be a very fun card in the exact same decks you play Flash in. Also Hulk by itself is only very fringely playable in cEDH, it's a balanced card within the format at the highest power level.
Basically it's either ban a reanimator/big mana toolbox-y card in Flash (That has replacements like Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Through the Breach, etc.) or ban the combo card Hulk (That kills any decks that would want to use Hulk as a wincon in mainly cEDH) but hulk can also be a very fun card to use in reanimator or sac focused decks outside of cEDH. You lose something either way.
I'd say the bans roughly hurt equal amounts of decks in EDH, but in cEDH Flash is the appropriate ban because Hulk will see an interesting amount of fringe play in cEDH without Flash.
@casuallydone468 Flash isn't really a problem though. As you said, it has replacements for its effect, and it doesn't have practically any specific combos that can work since the creature is sacrificed in the resolution, meaning they only get their etb triggers. Hulk is the combo piece. Hulk has many other means to be cheated out and do the very thing cEDH players didn't like. People don't use Hulk for fun and interesting interactions. They use it for winning the game in a near uninteractable way. Name a single winning combo Flash enables outside Hulk Flash.
@ODedonlife Hulk is fine right now in cEDH ask anyone, Brainfreeze and Thoracle are both stronger wincons in it. Even Heliod probably is. Hulk shouldnt be unplayable in cEDH it enables decks that wouldnt otherwise be playable and is one of 2 combos (Food chain being the other) that make green worth playing. Hulk is the combo piece but Flash is the pushed card that enabled it to be degenerate in cEDH, there is literally no other card currently enabling it to go infinite for 2 mana at instant speed, Flash's specific wording is what made it op.
The difficulty of removing Recurring Nightmare is a little weak argument imo since Ward gets slapped onto everything and their dog recently.
Also you have more windows of opportunity to respond to it wether by killing the sacrifice fodder or exiling valuable targets from the graveyard. You don't specifically need counter magic to handle it. And if a player has Recurring Nightmare and a game winning combo ready there a three other players who have a say in that not just one who has to have the right answer at the right time.
"killing the sacrifice fodder", you would need to kill every creature they control before Recurring Nightmare hits the battlefield for that to actually work. Not many decks, especially casual, have the ability to wrath a player's creatures at instant speed. Mass graveyard exile at instant speed is a bit easier, but then you have to also find an enchantment removal that exiles before the Nightmare player can put another target in their graveyard.
The stupidity of having the card bounce itself as part of the cost is worth banning alone just for the confusion is causes even to long-time players, but that's on top of how annoying the card is at constantly churning out fatties from the graveyard every turn for just 4 mana and some creature tokens.
we have tons of grave hate nowadays and much of it is colorless. RN isn't even the best reanimate spell in black, reanimate, dance of the dead are both cheaper and can target other people's yards. Necromancy costs the same but can be used at instant speed and targets other yard's as well. In the interest of shrinking the banned list I think it should come off, the only good reason is that it's repetitive if it's left unchecked.
In the absence of Recurring Nightmare, running Strands of Night has been fun. A little color heavy, but instant speed.
Just play Slimefoot and Squee
@@voidprism_studios666 you heard me say "color heavy but instant speed" right? I do run slimefoot and squee as a commander, but it isnt a replacement for strands of the night.
For starters using strands of the night 4x at instant speed in monoblack is likely to kill someone who didnt realize they would need 4 or 5 blockers out of nowhere.
@@voidprism_studios666 also: you cant fire off recurring nightmare that many times at instant speed. it recurrs one thing and only one thing normally, and so does slimefoot and squee. Strands just asks how much you're willing to pay for all your best graveyard creatures to be back on the battlefield right here and now.
well recurring nightmare and slime foot go infinite with a ham sandwich. the one at a time argument doesn't make much sense. slimefoot is the replacement or closest looking thing to nightmare, not strands, thats why I mentioned it. strands is bottlenecked by life and more so swamps. and in the niche case you want to put your creatures in at the beginning of combat you still need haste. Strands is cool though if you got Krrik, Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth and haste I guess@@alansmithee920
I love strands, but that sac a swamp can be a hefty price tag. For me, I run Victimize with Eternal Witness in my Slimefoot and Squee deck instead. With a sac outlet and Eternal Witness, Victimize pretty much becomes Recurring Nightmare.
Unban Braids, Cabal Minion, My favorite Commander. I love to bring the good news to 4 player commander.
My hot take is that Lutri should just be unbanned. The rules committee doesn't want to have banned as commander cards yet people want to play the cute otter as a commander. We should just let them have their aquatic mustelidae. Yes, everyone URx player is going to shove Lutri into the Companion zone. And that is where she will stay for the entire game.
I mean Recurring Nightmare's insane, but its legal in Legacy (A lower power format the cEDH), and it IS a high-skill card. It should still be banned
I get why you're not using your intro song anymore, but i will say i loved it
i will still use it periodically.
Time walk+ isochron scepter seems very good to me on turn 3.
isochron scepter only imprints instants.
cant you just kill your opponent, if they cast trade secrets on you. have them draw from an empty library, since they draw double the cards you do
I’ve thought the same thing. My assumption would be…that’s what they want you to do; fill their hand with shenanigans.
_up to_ four cards
I think Sundering Titan should have made this list. It’s just as unfun as Sylvan Primordial and just as easy to abuse.
i'm fine with targeted land removal. as far as abusing it goes. it's way easier to abuse a 2 mana dockside extortionist.
@@edhdeckbuildingOh trust me, I know. Friend of mine was playing Prosper, Tome Bound, played dockside, sawed it in half, played Underworld Breech, and did it all over again.
I was more talking about banned cards that need to stay banned as per the video's title. :)
@@Cocytus127 yes and i think there are cards currently legal in the format that are way worse than titan. the format has changed alot.
@@edhdeckbuildingI mean I'm not disagreeing with you lol. I just argued that Sundering Titan is probably a little worse to play against than Sylvan Primordial.
@@Cocytus127 play against? yes. but sylvan primordial is just a green auto include which imo makes it more banworthy.
Instead of a ban, they should borrow the points system from canadian edh, i think this could help with all decks running the same 40 cards.
Someone help me understand plz. I just gotten back in mtg 3 weeks ago. Last time before 3 weeks i played was a decade ago. I am now aware of the format EDH aka Commander. I was lead to believe this format is a freestyle format that’s suppose to be casual and fun. So a banned list doesn’t exist for it. Am i right? Nothing is banned in commander bkuz it isn’t competitive. I jus happen to have 2 of those card in the video and main man is telling me i cant play em?
There is a banlist for it that is mainly focused around cards that the commander rules committee thinks lead to unfun play patterns. They can sometimes be somewhat inconsistent with the policy and of course given that it's a casual format you can play whatever your playgroup is okay with (I even have a commander deck led by a legendary creature from an un-set), but it does help a bit to have a shared foundation for when you play with strangers.
I just knew that Upheaval would be #1. Boy was I wrong.
Wtbs, not sure how Upheaval didn't make the list. It's definitely an "I Win Immediately" card in Commander
I can understand all of these bans, but most (if not all) are okay for kitchen table as long as you don't use combo cards that break them.
Back when it was printed, you only tutored for Phyrexian Processor or Memory Jar(A few others may be escaping memory). I feel like Jar was banned immediately so you couldn't even tutor for that.
Infect is an attribute that should've never been created. It should absolutely be raised to 20 infect in commander.
That said, if Colossus didn't exist, I wonder for what people would tinker early game.
The number one card that needs to stay banned is limited resources, not only is it a mass land destruction spell it is also an enchantment that stops people from playing lands, it also wasn’t designed for commander so everyone gets stuck with two lands and only two colors can interact with it. Oh and it only costs one mana, what a miserable card
Hot take. Unban Lutri, fix companion in commander because that's the busted part
For sure.
No reason the Companion mechanic should be valid in Commander anyway, it feels redundant.
I have a foil Lutri that just mocks me daily. I just want it in the 99.
@@huludMost people would allow it through rule 0 in your 99. There is nothing inherently unfair about the card outside of the companion mechanic.
I feel like if the problem with lutri is this clear cut, then companion should limit the total deck size just like partners do. Lutri would have no reason to be banned
6:19 maybe you could call it an........OTTER include :)
Recurring Nightmare was a pivotal understanding for me as a player. I used to want it back because it's a monoblack flicker effect. Very useful. Then I learned its unfair timing complications, combo potential, and option to revive other creatures, not just the original target.
Its a sad truth in this game: greedy players will use a card for outrageous plays that average players don't even think of. Perhaps we'll get a "fixed" version of it someday. One that can be responded to and isn't so combotastic.
Yeah idk why people think that coalition victory would be fine. Imagine you play vs a 5c deck. Lots of creatures of often JUST THEIR COMMANDER threatens the win immediately the next turn. 1 card in hand, 1 life, doesn't matter
This card would be frustrating
I’m highly against bans in commander, that was the whole point of the format is that you can use any card however, you want whenever you want. I think only cards that break the fundamental spirit of commander should be banned and there’s only really one or two of those cards.
Loving the Parkway shirt!
Companion shouldn't even work in commander since the format doesn't have a sideboard. Lutri would be fine in the 99.
apparently companions exist in their own special space. not the sideboard.
@@edhdeckbuildingcompanions are part of the sideboard. The commander rule says that cards cannot bring other cards from outside the game into it.
@@davidstar2686 companions are not in the sideboard.
I'm a little upset Paradox Engine isn't banned in Brawl on Arena
Come on Channel is a classic and it deserves to be reprinted in any set with "Classic' in the name.
Lutri should be allowed in the 99
Reoccurring nightmares should be unbanned
it's not even the best reanimate spell
The only reason I think coalition victory ahould be banned is the new leyline. Otherwise its super risky to play as everyone holds up one mana to remove the one single 5 color creature. Again thorracle exists for 3 mana win from hand.
So what I never got about Recurring Nightmare, it is an immensely powerful card (Mainly because it's recursive reanimation), but the thing is you can respond to Recurring Nightmare just as much as a Reanimate (Except you can also stifle it). If recurring nightmare was a sorcery that sacced and reanimate a creature, and then buybacked itself it would function effectively the exact same way, and to me (And both legacy and vintage playable) every 1-2 mana animate is just still better than it, and i think even in commander victimize is probably just better. Particularly Reanimate is still just better than Recurring Nightmare, if Reanimate is fine Recurring is too.
You can respond to the effect but you can't really prevent the sacrifice or the returning to the hand. So yeah you can stop the creature coming back more or less but the RN is still back in hand and can be used again. The only real way to stop it is by using a counter spell
@lucasperrella9280 And how exactly is that different from a traditional reanimation spell aside from getting it back. Once again, not saying it's not very powerful that it is recursive, but this format has access to Reanimate, Life // Death, Exhume, Corpse Dance, Animate Dead, Etc. Which legacy formats have determined is better than getting it multiple times
@@casuallydone468 I completely see your points and i agree, those are probably better options. I just think the recurability of RN is what puts it over the edge. You don't need to spend resources to get it back to hand and with the example of corpse dance, its already 2 mana cheaper with buyback in consideration.
@lucasperrella9280 To me, Reanimate if it is able to be legal without issue there is no problem with Recurring
Recurring nightmare. People have to get over you can’t destroy it because the cost is the bouncing.
Think about it like this. Recurring nightmare is a slightly worse sorcery spell.
There is so much graveyard hate in the format that this is not as brutal as it used to be to be
Isn't waste a basic land so you need 6?
It is a basic land, but it doesn't have a type. There are technically 11 basic lands thanks to the snow-covered basics, but there are only 5 basic land types.
With how Commander is now, Paradox Engine can come off the list. It would come back to an environment that's just as fast as it used to be before the banning, plus the environment has more removal overall. I'm not saying it wouldn't win games, just that it would be one in a countless number of degenerate ways to win games. Having just Paradox Engine on the ban list serves no purpose, and there's likely too many other cards that meet the same criteria as Paradox Engine that aren't banned, so the more realistic approach is to just unban Paradox Engine.
Let me try to sway you back to unbanning reoccurring nightmare. You said that the only reason it should be banned because it was a card that was going to be an auto include. I dont think that is a good enough reason to ban something. For instance a craterhoof behemoth is an auto include or at really should be for power level and it is not really restricted to any stipulation except that i have some creatures in play. You said that it is hard to interact with this card and i beg to differ. You have three options to dealing with this card 1. Stiffle the trigger (not so good for reasons you mentioned) 2. Exile the persons graveyard, every color has very good graveyard exile effects in the form of colorless cards 3. Straight up counter it, if the enchantment is used in mono black ain't no way you are getting it back. For Craterhoof on the other hand there are ways to interact, but they are on a less generic scale 1. Stiffle the effect (only in blue) 2. Counter it (only in blue or niche black, red and white cards) 3. Fog the damage (only in green/white and niche black and red) 4. Board wipe them at instant speed (only predominant in blue and white). Lastly it's three mana and you do have to sacrifice a creature and already have one in the graveyard to activate. I am fine with banning auto includes if there is something else that is agregious causing it to be too OP or make the game unfun, but reoccurring nightmare is neither of those. Yes it is good but not OP. And i don't believe it to be unfun like Prophet of Kruphix or Paradox Engine. Thanks for reading!
Gotta disagree on coalition victory. Its probably the single most interactable win the game card in the game. Spot removal is practially a counterspell to it, so every color (besides red) should be able to easily interact with it on the stack. There are plenty of combos that just happen anyway so one that is so easily disrupted would be fine.
Its also 8 mana
it's just lame. doesn't make the format better in the slightest. i talk about this in the next video.
@edhdeckbuilding I agree with you on it being lame, but from a power perspective it shouldn't be banned. And from a fun perspective, far less fun win the game cards already exist in the format. Looking at thoracle
Coalition victory fizzles to a ton of removal. 8 mana cards should be game ending... Not ban worthy
The companion mechanic should be banned. Not the cards themselves. You didn't mention the companion errata that makes them all worse anyway. Also. Trade secrets was banned cause you just draw half your deck and the person that cast the card just looses unless they have lab man out. Unlikely to stay on the field if it was cast.
"then you draw up to 4 cards"
I’ll never forget my friend winning on my upkeep with paradox engine when I was about to win with revel in riches. Also I think prime time should be unbanned
Unbanning Time walk? Sure, buddy
Primordial is no worse than any number of 7 drop creatures. Etali, Atraxa, Toxrill, ect.
yeah honestly i might change my mind on that one.
Sylvan Primordial I can understand but I absolutely think Primeval Titan should be unbanned. Power creep has caught up and my guy has done his time. I’ll die on this hill.
Primeval titan needs to be house ruled to only search for basic lands.
@@shorewall While I’d be absolutely fine with that being a house rule, I don’t think it would be completely necessary. 6 mana to get any 2 lands in your deck onto the battlefield tapped isn’t as wild as it was back then nowadays. Of course you can break this if your deck is built to, but for the most part, I just want to run it as a big body ramp piece so just searching for basic lands would be cool with me. Plus, it would just be a hot bed for removal anyway.
I can't say i agree with the decision behind lutri. If the logic for banning lutri is "it gives you an extra card", then shouldn't partners and backgrounds also be banned? Those are extra cards, and unlike lutri, they are recurring.
They are _not_ extra cards though, they're included in your 99(98) card deck minus commander(s). Lutri (and other companions) are a 101st card
They are not free. They require you to play another partner or a card with "choose a background" which (theoretically) would balance it out. They also require you to not play a different commander.
Lutri has no deck building requirements (outside of petitioners or dragon's approach) only color requirements. Every deck in blue and red should run lutri, but not every one should, or even can, run Kraum or Ludevic.
Lutri is banned, obviously, but i think most people would be fine with it as a rule 0 commander.
They could easily unban Lutri by just removing the companion mechanic from the format and just making it work like it should in EDH, which doesn't have sideboards and therefore shouldn't allow companions to be played in the command zone at all.
While I agree with banning companion as a mechanic, I do want to say it is at least not as bad after they changed how companion works (it no longer works as printed on the cards), also they aren't ever in the command zone. They exist outside of any game zones.
Just wanted to say your editing is really great. Lacking the intro song. I was waiting when I clicked on the video.
Is the theme song gone for good? I always wondered how you ended up with a UK garage beat as your intro anyway...
Recurring Nightmare is banned because it is difficult to interact with (outside of counterspells).
Thassa's Oracle isn't banned, while being difficult to interact with.
Double standard.
Tatyova decks are already a menace, Fastbond just makes them insufferable.
Shararzard not only needs to be unbanned but it should be impossible to concede just the sub game. Either you give up the game or you dont non of this "ill just lose 10 life" nonsense.
I can't see Karakas ever being unbanned for EDH lol. Fastbond would be interesting haha also Tinker could be abused so much I'm glad to see it stay banned
No more music intro ? :/
You already start the game with an 8th card, your commander. Partners give you nine. Lutri at least costs 3 mana to get and you’re never casting it just for the body, so it’s just a 6 mana copy target spell. I have one deck I’d consider playing it in. I want them to unban it for at least a year so people can see how little of an issue it is.
The issue is diversity. 6 mana copy spell isn't the greatest in the world, but literally every single deck in the game that has red/blue colors is not optimal if they don't run it. There would be literally no additional cost. You just get an extra card every single game. Doesn't take a deck slot, is guaranteed from the start. I agree that the card itself isn't a crazy problem, but the fact is that there is zero reason not to run it for every izzet+ deck, and that's a horrible way to design a card. It would be in more izzet decks than sol ring, except given it's rarity, it would cost over a hundred dollars easily.
@@eewweeppkk I don’t actually believe that every deck that could run it would. And if I were to entertain that argument you would need to ban mana crypt and sol ring first. Partners/backgrounds also give you an extra card and they’re not banned. This kind of inconsistency is all over the current banlist.
@DanielEvanClarke You aren't understanding the problem. Lutri is a 101st card. Partners are not, backgrounds are not. They require a card slot and a special commander to be available in the first place. Mana crypt and sol ring already ARE considered by many to be ban worthy first of all, and second of all they take a card slot and must be drawn into. Lurtri is a completely free (in terms of deck construction) 8th starting card that takes no deck slot.
Every deck that has blue/red is not optimal if they do not have a Lutri, because it is a 100% risk-free, resource-free, additional 101st card, unlike every other example you mentioned.
@@eewweeppkk lutri is not a 101, he’s part of the 99 and effectively makes your deck one card smaller
@DanielEvanClarke That's not true, companions don't count against deck size and even if they DID it would still be a way to guaranteed thin your deck by one card even if you never cast it, making your deck more consistent for completely free. As it is its just a totally free additional guaranteed resource every single game you can have.
Sylvan and Prime Time are kind of two sides of the same coin, both are equally as bad for different reasons. Sylvan as you mentioned just completely shuts out games and creates a HUGE tempo advantage just cheating it constantly. Prime Time essentially just makes the game completely revolve around it, be it the player using it abusing it's effect, other players attempting to steal it, managing to give it haste or extra combats to just run away with the game. Also note that Prime Time is ANY land card which also makes it objectively better since you hunt down your strip mines, ancient tomb, etc whatever utility land you need. I'd say both still need to stay on the list, though which is worse kind of depends on what kind of playgroup you have. As someone who sees a LOT of utility lands, Prime Time would definitely be worse to see across the table personally since most of those lands don't have typing.
Also Time Walk is banned probably specifically due to Isochron Scepter... and maybe price lol.
Golos my boy needs to comeback cause wizards played y'all who made Golos. They just Banned him and then make you pay to make a different five colour commander...
Griselbrand should be unbanned
@meatbasedvegan4859 why not? People are winning games on turn 1 or 2 with thassa's oracle
Lutri should be unbanned and simply acknowledge that Companion doesn’t function in EDH because there’s no sideboard.
That's the problem though, EDH is a casual format that doesn't use sideboards... Therefore the rules state that it just exists outside of the game and not in the sideboard.
Disagree on Lutri. They changed how companion works and I can't imagine she'd be strong enough to even make a dent in the format 🤔
it's a free card for every red/blue deck. that's the only issue.
Primeval Titan is better than Sylvan Primordial imo. You can get ANY two lands.
yes but most decks don't have super busted lands.
Lutri isn't even good anymore after the 3 mana change. Paying 3 to draw a card once a game, who cares?
In regards to Coalition Victory, there are plenty of non-banned low cost 2-card infinite combos that effectively may as well read “You win the game”…
Just as an example, if you are playing Shalai and Hallar and you cast All Will Be One. That’s only 5 CMC not 8 and you do infinite damage (Technically, you need to be able to do 1 damage or get a single counter in a deck designed to do that to trigger the infinite loop; I can hardly think of an easier condition to meet).
I see no benefit from removing the card from the ban list (the card offers nothing to better the game) but it does not need to be banned for being too powerful.
I would say it's more a toxic play pattern than power level. It combos with any 5 color commander that is actually 5 colors. Because of this and the fact that it doesn't really telegraph itself, it makes 5 color commanders mostly kill on sight.
It also has the problem of it either winning the game on the spot or doing literally nothing whereas most of the other combos do something on their own or give time to stop them.
@@seandun7083 There are many easier combos that offer no chance at interaction (aside from counterspells) and win the game far easier but have not been banned.
I’m not sure how this card doing nothing unless it wins the game is an argument for it to remain on the ban list. That’s just a reason to not want to play it.
unpopular opinion: i don't think that the golos, tireless pilgrim ban was deserved.
i have two friends in my playgroup with golos decks and it was bearable to play gainst them :D
i think that commanders like tergrid, chulane, lord xander, miirym, prosper, urza ( just to name a few) are way worse to handle.
we don't play cedh but with powerlevel-decks above 6-8ish and we don't think that golos was the main-threat on the table when someone played him.
but i also admit that many of those commanders and scenarios are situation dependant and not every round is like the other :D
Golos was not banned because of power level. He was banned because of deck diversity. He was by far the best choice for 5 color decks, and it's really hard to deny that. He made every 5 color deck somewhat homogeneous in play pattern. "Play a Golos package, play good stuff, value town."
@@ebbandfloatzelyeah i know and the fact is true that he is kind of a limitation deckbuilding wise.
the thing for me is that other 5-color commanders also have kind of limitations play-wise and strategy-wise, at the end of the day it always depends on how you approach deckbuilding.
najeela, sisay, morophon and jodah are also kinda limited, if you go for the obvious playstyle and strategies to get value fast.
it's nitpicky i know :D but it's just my opinion about golos
#FREELUTRI
The idea that "banned as companion" (or "banned as commander," for that matter) is too complicated is a straight-up lie.
If you can understand a game as complicated as Magic, you can read a single extra line of text on a banlist.
agree. having separate ban lists in commander wouldn't be complicated at all.
i don’t agree on sylvan primordial it does not need to be banned lol
Companion shouldnt even work in commander. We dont sideboards to begin with. I dont know why they made up a whole zone just to make companion work when wishing and learning all do nothing.
I've seen people defend fastbond.
No one is playing time walk on turn two. They save it for something ridiculous
does anyone make ridiculous plays in commander?
I’m actually in the minority, I think fast bond should be unbanned. For a couple of reasons I don’t think it is an issue.
Prophet of Kruphix also needs to stay banned
Sylvan Primordial is pretty busted. HOWEVER, I do rule zero it in when I play my janky Gatecrash tribal deck
Lutri is more of a fake Boogeyman than Jace, the mind sculptor. If it was unbanned it would probably have the exact same life as Jace did played for 2 weeks then forgotten
But why wouldn't you play it in every one of your blue red decks and start out with an 8 card hand?
@@Bear7747 because it's a bad card 6 mana and effectively losing flash is ridiculous I could at least understand it before the nerf to all companions
@@crazydeadpersonA bad card is better than no card. There is literally no reason why a blue-red deck wouldn't play it if were legal.
@@Bear7747 I probably going to start playing it in my red blue decks as a companion just to make abundantly clear how it does nothing
@@crazydeadperson You can choose to start the game with an emblem with the text:
"{6}: Create a 3/2 red and blue otter creature token. Activate only once"
Do you?
No one is arguing that it's an especially good card, it's just that there is NO reason not to play it if you meet the requirements, which any UR deck has to go out of their way to avoid.