The strangest thing in this case for me is, why prosecute a guard? He was from Ukraine, a german prisoner, he had 2 choices, be a guard or die in the camp. It was not an important trial, the important people got away, some to south America, some stayed in Germany held high positions in public office.
Curious. You discuss how the image of Ivan the Terrible was burned into the minds of the witnesses and how they could not forget someone who was so terrible. And yet they were wrong. Demjanjuk was a guard, at a different prison. He wasn't the man they labeled "Ivan the Terrible". What happened to the survivors was tragic and horrific beyond words but they doesn't make them above errors. It is concerning when someone's life is on the line that the witnesses against them were considered above reproach and in fact to even question them was considered appalling. We should be concerned with that kind of justice.
31:45 Zero? Well, my grandfather was from Poland in Lodz (Litzmannstadt at the time). He had a German wife, and was asked to serve under Hitler 3 times. The 3rd time he denied, he was put on a train to Dachau at age 32 (that was in 1942) and was shot there and thrown into a mass grave. If people think they had a choice, then think again. They lost their own life for not obeying orders.
The trouble with referring to perpetrators as guards is that it implies a passivity and non involvement in the mass murder taking place which is not true.
The argument of force is different for a Soviet POW than for a German soldier. The fatality rate for Soviet POWs was extraordinarily high and the other places you were sent to as a Soviet POW - IF you survived at all - were various places of hell on Earth. I don’t think this was adequately addressed.
@@Oath1789 The Soviet gulag was murderous but none were like Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec in terms of immediately killing all the arrivals. Sacha Perchersky (spell?) who helped lead the Treblinka revolt suffered Soviet and Nazi prisons and said the Germans were worse, not that anyone should compare such miseries.
1987- John Demjanuk, 89 year old Nazi war criminal was charged four times, twice in US and once in Israel and then in Germany in 2011, and 2012 was charged for war crimes during 1933-1945. He was a guard at Sorbibor. He lived safely in America for 30 years and he was recognition and was to be deported to Germany to stand trial. He was convicted and he appealed but he died in a German nursing home aged 91 in 2012.
I just watched the Netflix documentary on this topic, but learned more from this talk. Thank you! I am a psychotherapist, trained primarily as a depth psychologist dealing with the unconscious. I am very curious to know what Mr. Douglas thinks of the psychological issues revolving around Demjanjuk. Watching him in trial, and listening to his children proclaim his complete innocence "my father could never be a murderer" I am curious to know how someone who is clearly psychopathic (if indeed he was guilty as charged) would not show his pathology over 40 years of being a "decent citizen and family man"...from my experience, this sort of psychopathology will leak out no matter how much effort is made to suppress it. I have not yet read his book, so maybe more information is there...
I've read articles about this person and there were two Ivan's sharing the same surname and the same birthday but the relationship was they were cousins from the same village and both served in the Soviet army and most probably were captured by the Germans in 1942 one Ivan returned to the village and the other in America. The story starts in 1971 the KGB came to the village searching for a person called Ivan Demjaniuk the saddest case was that two weeks later the Ivan in the village committed suicide and the KGB are now left with no leads until someone informed that the cousin living in the USA the Russians never knew this and 14th division of the KGB is well known for producing forged documents. The KGB had a 20 year old Ivan Demjaniuk picture of his registration in the Soviet army but the sloppy forger in Moscow lifted the original photo of him in a Red army dress detached from another document leaving two staple holes with purple ink and rust stains, and this gets worse not only they got the height wrong also the colour of his eyes and adding to insult the Trawniki ID card had too many mistakes and obviously a fake the wrong rank of overseers what should of been a Sargent instead a corporal seal was used .A top lawyer in the USA would spot two vital mistakes on the ID card printed 1.75 John Demjaniuk real height is 1.82 the colour of eyes on the ID card says grey and John Demjaniuks real colour of eyes is green these two differences would of thrown the case out of court because the Americans were prosecuting a wrong man mistaken identity but OSI continued ignoring those two important facts and the misaligned nazi seals on the photo and card . The new photographs of Sobibor is the cousin who committed suicide the difference is height and important features John Demjaniuk didn't have a broken nose the photograph displays a person with a broken nose must done some boxing in his youth .
OK, I also heard about a man by the same man who worked in Cicero, IL for the BN Railway and committed suicide by walking in front of a speeding train?
German post war trials followed the following logic: You whipped and beat the prisoners into gas rooms but you were a poor ignorant man following orders and therefore cannot be held responsible; or you were the Commandant and you never touched a prisoner personally and therefore cannot be held accountable - the important thing is that we get a historical record. I encourage the reader to read the Treblinka article of Wikipedia to see how the perpetrators got less punishment than a drunk driver. MOST of the RSHA at the SS were not even charged with a crime. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp
Hi, thanks for the talk! I am somehow a bit fascinated by the case. I have a major in math and minor in anthropology and what fascinates me was the picture identification between the "old" and "young" Demjanjuk from his Trawnicki camp. There is no doubt that really pictures Demjanjuk, you look at 4 major attributes like eye distance, ear lap distance from head etc. and there it is. What always strikes me and I don't understand: How did they makes the bridge to him being at Treblinka?! The card only lists Sobibor and another camp I cannot decpipher. But it did not say Treblinka! And why didn't they then go after him for being at Sobibor instead of Treblinka? Plus is it now clear that the ID card was genuine? Not a fraud?
This topic has really consumed me ever since seeing “the devil next door” on Netflix. I really enjoyed your story telling. Even though it covered such a horrible topic.
Germany's approach to these trials is the correct one. Germany rightly adheres to the justice of not charging someone with an ex post facto law on the one hand, while using a theory that (contrary to the Prof. in the video) is not new at all. After all, common law murder (an unwritten law) still exists in the U.S. It is the moral law. One knows not to murder. It need not be written. Here, however, the "internationalist" want supranational governance. They want to avoid the concept of "sovereignty".
At this point it is practically moot - the last surviving Nazi perpetrators are extremely old, in their 90s and the era of trials is mostly over. Survivors are similarly old, even a child who somehow survived would be very old now. I like survivor Eva Kor's suggestion for the Nazi who was put on trial a couple years ago - saying his punishment should be to talk about what he saw, honestly, to school groups, other public events. Both Ms. Kor and the Nazi have now passed away due to old age. The failure to prosecute war criminals is mostly history now and there is a lot to learn from that, but there aren't going to be many more prosecutions. Too late.
How did anyone know 100% that this was really Ivan the Terrible. I would only believe it with some DNA. I think that you can’t go condemning people with out solid proof.
Many people say is this case. In the 79s and 80, the two groups who protested the USSR, Jewish and Ukrainian. Do u belive the theory that the KGB planted this, two wrip these groups apart??
41:00 That is easy to answer: without them whole "new" Germany would have collapsed withing 3 years and probably would have ended up in another catastrophy...
the guy was poor labor ignorant what he new nothing!!! but the chosen people they use this as scary tactic that's the philosophy of the chosen people goes on long time ego
Ur answer on zero penalty for walking away as a POS seems like BS.... I would need actual proof before convicting... U make up rules to convince and convict.....
The strangest thing in this case for me is, why prosecute a guard? He was from Ukraine, a german prisoner, he had 2 choices, be a guard or die in the camp. It was not an important trial, the important people got away, some to south America, some stayed in Germany held high positions in public office.
Curious. You discuss how the image of Ivan the Terrible was burned into the minds of the witnesses and how they could not forget someone who was so terrible. And yet they were wrong. Demjanjuk was a guard, at a different prison. He wasn't the man they labeled "Ivan the Terrible". What happened to the survivors was tragic and horrific beyond words but they doesn't make them above errors. It is concerning when someone's life is on the line that the witnesses against them were considered above reproach and in fact to even question them was considered appalling. We should be concerned with that kind of justice.
Who else is here because of the Netflix documentary?
31:45 Zero? Well, my grandfather was from Poland in Lodz (Litzmannstadt at the time). He had a German wife, and was asked to serve under Hitler 3 times. The 3rd time he denied, he was put on a train to Dachau at age 32 (that was in 1942) and was shot there and thrown into a mass grave. If people think they had a choice, then think again. They lost their own life for not obeying orders.
The trouble with referring to perpetrators as guards is that it implies a passivity and non involvement in the mass murder taking place which is not true.
The argument of force is different for a Soviet POW than for a German soldier. The fatality rate for Soviet POWs was extraordinarily high and the other places you were sent to as a Soviet POW - IF you survived at all - were various places of hell on Earth. I don’t think this was adequately addressed.
The fatality rate for Soviet camps is high--if not higher. Stalin makes Hitler look like a little french school girl.
@@Oath1789 That doesn’t dispute my point. Nor does the lecturer address what would have happened to a POW who didn’t go to that training.
@@Oath1789 The Soviet gulag was murderous but none were like Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec in terms of immediately killing all the arrivals. Sacha Perchersky (spell?) who helped lead the Treblinka revolt suffered Soviet and Nazi prisons and said the Germans were worse, not that anyone should compare such miseries.
I remember that dudes house in Seven Hills, Ohio. We used to throw snowballs at his car when he was driving down the street.
1987- John Demjanuk, 89 year old Nazi war criminal was charged four times, twice in US and once in Israel and then in Germany in 2011, and 2012 was charged for war crimes during 1933-1945. He was a guard at Sorbibor. He lived safely in America for 30 years and he was recognition and was to be deported to Germany to stand trial. He was convicted and he appealed but he died in a German nursing home aged 91 in 2012.
I just watched the Netflix documentary on this topic, but learned more from this talk. Thank you! I am a psychotherapist, trained primarily as a depth psychologist dealing with the unconscious. I am very curious to know what Mr. Douglas thinks of the psychological issues revolving around Demjanjuk. Watching him in trial, and listening to his children proclaim his complete innocence "my father could never be a murderer" I am curious to know how someone who is clearly psychopathic (if indeed he was guilty as charged) would not show his pathology over 40 years of being a "decent citizen and family man"...from my experience, this sort of psychopathology will leak out no matter how much effort is made to suppress it. I have not yet read his book, so maybe more information is there...
Turns out he was the right man and documentary evidence , testimonies and photographs prove this
What is the difference between a prisoner that worked in these places and the jews who were forced.
Who is here because of netflix
I've read articles about this person and there were two Ivan's sharing the same surname and the same birthday but the relationship was they were cousins from the same village and both served in the Soviet army and most probably were captured by the Germans in 1942 one Ivan returned to the village and the other in America. The story starts in 1971 the KGB came to the village searching for a person called Ivan Demjaniuk the saddest case was that two weeks later the Ivan in the village committed suicide and the KGB are now left with no leads until someone informed that the cousin living in the USA the Russians never knew this and 14th division of the KGB is well known for producing forged documents. The KGB had a 20 year old Ivan Demjaniuk picture of his registration in the Soviet army but the sloppy forger in Moscow lifted the original photo of him in a Red army dress detached from another document leaving two staple holes with purple ink and rust stains, and this gets worse not only they got the height wrong also the colour of his eyes and adding to insult the Trawniki ID card had too many mistakes and obviously a fake the wrong rank of overseers what should of been a Sargent instead a corporal seal was used .A top lawyer in the USA would spot two vital mistakes on the ID card printed 1.75 John Demjaniuk real height is 1.82 the colour of eyes on the ID card says grey and John Demjaniuks real colour of eyes is green these two differences would of thrown the case out of court because the Americans were prosecuting a wrong man mistaken identity but OSI continued ignoring those two important facts and the misaligned nazi seals on the photo and card . The new photographs of Sobibor is the cousin who committed suicide the difference is height and important features John Demjaniuk didn't have a broken nose the photograph displays a person with a broken nose must done some boxing in his youth .
OK, I also heard about a man by the same man who worked in Cicero, IL for the BN Railway and committed suicide by walking in front of a speeding train?
German post war trials followed the following logic: You whipped and beat the prisoners into gas rooms but you were a poor ignorant man following orders and therefore cannot be held responsible; or you were the Commandant and you never touched a prisoner personally and therefore cannot be held accountable - the important thing is that we get a historical record. I encourage the reader to read the Treblinka article of Wikipedia to see how the perpetrators got less punishment than a drunk driver. MOST of the RSHA at the SS were not even charged with a crime. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp
You now have the photos from sobibor from Niemann collection that show Demjanuks presence at Sobibor
How many Soviets died in POW camps?
Hi, thanks for the talk! I am somehow a bit fascinated by the case. I have a major in math and minor in anthropology and what fascinates me was the picture identification between the "old" and "young" Demjanjuk from his Trawnicki camp. There is no doubt that really pictures Demjanjuk, you look at 4 major attributes like eye distance, ear lap distance from head etc. and there it is.
What always strikes me and I don't understand: How did they makes the bridge to him being at Treblinka?!
The card only lists Sobibor and another camp I cannot decpipher. But it did not say Treblinka!
And why didn't they then go after him for being at Sobibor instead of Treblinka?
Plus is it now clear that the ID card was genuine? Not a fraud?
Ah ok, he was identified by some Treblinka survirors! But still, they had nothing to back that up with?
This is really intresting after watching the netflix documentry
This topic has really consumed me ever since seeing “the devil next door” on Netflix. I really enjoyed your story telling. Even though it covered such a horrible topic.
So who is the actual Ivan of Treblinka?
Germany's approach to these trials is the correct one. Germany rightly adheres to the justice of not charging someone with an ex post facto law on the one hand, while using a theory that (contrary to the Prof. in the video) is not new at all. After all, common law murder (an unwritten law) still exists in the U.S. It is the moral law. One knows not to murder. It need not be written. Here, however, the "internationalist" want supranational governance. They want to avoid the concept of "sovereignty".
At this point it is practically moot - the last surviving Nazi perpetrators are extremely old, in their 90s and the era of trials is mostly over. Survivors are similarly old, even a child who somehow survived would be very old now. I like survivor Eva Kor's suggestion for the Nazi who was put on trial a couple years ago - saying his punishment should be to talk about what he saw, honestly, to school groups, other public events. Both Ms. Kor and the Nazi have now passed away due to old age. The failure to prosecute war criminals is mostly history now and there is a lot to learn from that, but there aren't going to be many more prosecutions. Too late.
How did anyone know 100% that this was really Ivan the Terrible. I would only believe it with some DNA. I think that you can’t go condemning people with out solid proof.
Many people say is this case. In the 79s and 80, the two groups who protested the USSR, Jewish and Ukrainian. Do u belive the theory that the KGB planted this, two wrip these groups apart??
He was guilty. Unless it was his identical twin brother.
41:00 That is easy to answer: without them whole "new" Germany would have collapsed withing 3 years and probably would have ended up in another catastrophy...
Look up Solomon Morell
Trawniki guards were transferred between the different extermination camps and they were also participants in destroying the warsaw ghetto
the guy was poor labor ignorant what he new nothing!!! but the chosen people they use this as scary tactic that's the philosophy of the chosen people goes on long time ego
He served in 4 different concentration camps, and we have the documents and photos to prove it. Greets from Germany.
this is insane this guy was a killer
Ur answer on zero penalty for walking away as a POS seems like BS.... I would need actual proof before convicting... U make up rules to convince and convict.....