My experience with a copy. I always have been riding really good frames from top brands and some custom italian frames Spezzotto (great ones), two years ago i brough a copy of a Time frame from alibaba, I did it because I had curiosity and I wanted to have a less expensive second road bike for some trainings. I was really amazed with the good performance of that frame, it climbs and acelerate as good as an original and more expensive frame, only noticiable diferences are the weight (not heavy anyway) and the internal finishing. Now that bike its been used by a sub 23 racer and its in perfect conditions. Im not in favor of use the brands but I wanted to give my honest and positive feedback of these frames.
Joaquin Menarguez Bas Venga chaval cuando quieras me buscas en Strava y hablamos. Actualmente compito con una Scott foil y es un cohete pero en mi equipo hay un tio con una copia de Dogma y deja a muchos pegados. Froome con una copia igual se escapa.
+Andrés Omaña a mí lo que tu hagas en strava... Por lo menos yo lo admito, admito que soy un globero, no me las doy de pro ni pollas, no tienes mas que ver algún video de mi canal. Aún así, mira la velocidad a la que vamos, y la bici mas patata es la mía, y ronda los 3,000€ ya con el Ultegra di2. De ahí para arriba. Gente que no se la juega con mierdas chinas, ni siquiera tú, que reconoces tener una buena bici, y no una copia de este de gafas que se cree ingeniero de la NASA. A cualquiera, froome o cualquier pro le das una copia y te la tira a la cabeza, y lo sabes. Mi seguridad vale mas que una diferencia de 2.000€. Pero mucho mucho mas...! Esta gente solo sabe reventar el mercado a base de mierdas pero eso no es lo peor, lo peor es que ponen tu seguridad en peligro. Llevar un teléfono chino en un bolsillo es como llevar una bomba de relojería. Y una bicicleta ya ni te cuento. En fin, que quieres que te diga.
Pay the extortionate prices for the brand names if you're daft enough & a bike snob. Bravo for the Chinese for making carbon frames afordable for the majority of us.
I think the point is that he making is the frame is only one part of the package. They essentially stole the R&D part of the process and are only passing on the price of the manufacturing of the frames. Would you think the same if they stole all the material from someone and sold you a cheap frame with such low overhead costs because they steal the supplies? Maybe it still would not matter to you as you are getting a cheap frame in the end. But the point of the matter is that their costs are artificially low because of theft.
I have no problem w/ carbon bikes made in China. Purchase what you like at the end of the day! Just don't ride or purchase a counterfeit logo'd Pinarello. Stop trying to fool yourself or other people. If it's just a copied bike, does it really need a Pinarello logo? No...but people want to drive a Ferrari when it's actually a Daihatsu is just silly.
S Ballard correct. I guarantee you this, all the people that buy fakes then start riding them it doesn't take long before their conscience gets to them and they know they are a loser for bullshitting themselves. A month later they post it for sale.
Agreed. I've bought carbon wheelset from China and specifically chose one without any fake branding on it and I plan to do the same with a frame sometime in the future.
If I was sub 70kg I would sit and ride a chinarello. At 91kg I would not want to thrash the bike over cobbles. I suspect the moulds for these copies are leaked from the Taiwanese factories that produce the real frames for the big names. This is why the exterior carbon shapes look almost identical. I suspest the difference comes in three areas. 1. The prepreg carbon chosen. Cheaper Toray vs higher end pre preg sheets with better QC checks. 2. The layup pattern. The copies may lack the proper layup pattern. You cannot tell this from the outstide. 3. The layup QC (quality control and audit) will certainly lack the quality control checks that the big Taiwanese factories have for the big names. These factors for me will affect one thing drastically. Fatigue life. A one time ride may yield no difference in a copy and a real frame. However, would you want to continue thrashing your copy frame knowing the corners that have been cut. NO! When carbon lets go, it does so with little warning. It is going to hurt. Would I buy a copy steel frame? Probably yes.
Hahaha this thread is like the Gibson vs Chinese Gibson (Chibson) debate in the guitar world I think it comes down too your economic status and what your views of a good bike People worrying about the companies, oh please, you really think that pinerallo care for you sucking up to them? I don't get why people are so stuck with a company, unless sponsored of course If I can get a decent Chinese bike that is going to last and perform just as good as a top branded one (I'm sure a majority of brands use factories in China, the difference being Quality control) then I'll take it Then if you look at the cost factor it's almost a sure thing It's not being delusional or stupid or anything else And PS. Carbon is cheap not expensive so I don't know why top end bikes are over 5k let alone being 10k If anyone can please logically explain to me why a bike would be in that price range that would be great oh and if you can't logically properly explain it you will be blocked
I appreciate your honesty in the video, and I imagine for most riders these bikes would be fine, but I would never ride a counterfeit bike with official logos on it. That's just bad karma as I see it.
+Phil Anderson I agree, I rather have debaged, haha I actually have a crappy bike from target like yeas back of with an aluminum frame, I stripped off the stickers, luckily, they were all stickers, no paint jobs, just a top coat to seal in the aluminum
I bought my bike at Milan bike shop from Guangzhou. I think now the frame cost about 400EUR, groupset Ultegra 6700 about 500EUR, wheels 500EUR, and some accessory.
what website did you use to buy your bike or frame? ive been looking on ebay but I cant seems to find the frame that I want, any help from you will be greatly appreciate Liang Qiao
hey Liang Qiao, after watching your video. my current bike is aluminium, and aluminium doesn't flex so there wont be a big difference with a stiff carbon frame right ? the bike im planning to buy is a copy of the LOOK 795 aerolight and it says its 3k weave and t1000 carbon, i don't know the difference, while the original one has 1.5k carbon. i don't know if that's the weave or the carbon quality. i also hesitated to go for pinarello but i prefer the LOOK design in the end. the website is dhgate i don't know if its a good place to buy, maybe you have a better website to suggest. thank you for your opinion :)
It is relatively easy to tell the difference in stiffness. You can most likely even tell the bottom brackets apart. Bb386 with screw together bb is the stiffest.
I rode a chinnese dengfu made bike for 2years. I have had no problems at all with the frame. Some of my friends who rode fancy bikes had to change frames few times becuase of some issues. So i am buying anothe frame from dengfu, custom painted. I don't like to buy those copies, but frames from small manufacturers such as hongfu and dengfu are very reliable. Once i had to buy extra hangers which only cost me 2dollars, and at the smae time my buddy who rode cannondale had to pay 35 dollars for one hanger. I am not a rich guy that can aford 1000 or more usd bike. But in a race riding, i always came in top level among club members. Simply put, chinese knock offs, i don't know. But frame from small chinese company, thumbs up.
Thank you for so much insight! Could you please share, what is the best Chinese Road Racing bike brand that’s at a reasonable price? Thanks in advance!
lucino orbegoso dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
I appreciated the video for providing an owners view of the bikes and for sharing some of the technical information about the frame qualities. I like that you put your family name on the frame ... nice touch.
Hey Liang, really loved the video review of these bikes. Thanks a ton buddy, was really helpful. I am still unable to decide as to which weave should I go in for, 1k or the 3k. Roads here in India aren't the best and have potholes. Could you help me with that please?
Hi Vikram, thx. For the finishing, my suggestion: if you can, go for 1k, it looks better. Although it will not make any quality difference, the appearance is better.
my question is about your groupset. did you buy the bike as a full package with a groupset? if so is the groupset genuine? do the ones that come with these di2 groupset or whatever genuine?
yes, I bought the whole bike. Only the carbon parts are copies, all rest are genuine: groupset, speedplay pedals, S-works shoes, etc. The bike maker don't sell anything else but the frame, fork and handbars. I bought all rest on Taobao and asked the bike maker to put into one package and send to me.
liang qiao so you got the frame groupset and all from tao bao from probably around $500. i just find it mind boggling the components are genuine. the price of these dura ace components alone (retail) is around $1000. very cool
no, no, my complete bike is 16500RMB, about 2660USD; the frame was 3000RMB (483USD), Ultegra 6700 is 4600RMB (742USD), and I have very expensive wheelsets and handbars. Real difference is only the carbon parts.
it was a year ago one cyclist posted on FB bought a chinarello frame. he got in to crash and split the frame in half. what he found inside the frame were Chinese newspaper partly to form the frame.
***** omg, this urban legend has been round for at least 5 years and is doing a great job of scaring prospective buyers away. it's a great story, but it's a story.
I have had a chinese 26” mtb and I have put on it more than 8000km. Never had any issues, raced with it and also did long mtb rides. It cost me 250€. Next bike I am going to buy is a 29” mtb. Also chinese.The difference between a cheap and an authentic frame is difficult to tell at amateure level and is not worth the money I think. What I noticed though when comparing my chinese frame to a Canyon frame is rigidity. Authentic frames are more rigid and tend to preserve that stiffness during time. One thing I noticed in my frame was that during time it lost a little bit of rigidity but nothing to worry about or that can affect performance!
Personally, I have a OEM Replica of a Pinarello Dogma 60.1 that's made it Taiwan. Bought it off from a guy, so it's second hand, for just $1500 as a half complete bike. The only thing I had to buy was a new clip-pedal and install a saddle which I already have before the purchase. I've been riding on it for about a few months now and I have got to say, it's a pretty solid bike to be honest. I've already crashed it once by mistake, ridden through speeds bumps and pot holes with it and still can't find a single crack on the frame at all. Altogether with a Mavic Aksium Wheelset, Shimano Ultegra-6800(11-Speed) and other components, it weighed about 9 KG the last time I check and it's pretty stiff to ride on. Some people might not respect the idea of buying a Non-Authentic but for me, money is kind of hard to come by, I couldn't afford the real one and neither am I trying to act rich. All I want is just simply a CF bike that I can really depend on that's cheap. I think really: There's actually nothing shameful on buying these copies. The only real problem would come in when people pose them as a real one and sell it for as high and scamming people. As long as it's a bike that will not break apart on you, it doesn't really matter if it's fake.
Galleon Chua you're a tool. And a crashed carbon bike is a weakened bike. Why would you risk your life for a few bucks? Wait til that steerer snaps.....
I work at a bike shop and I can tell you that at least with the specialized and cannondale they are no where close to the same in quality we get a couple people a year with the chinese copies who frames just straight up crack in half, you can buy them if you want but you will be getting a lower quality carbon less layers and lower quality resin. Can't feel the difference in them... wait till you do a century on both one. especially if you are talking about cliche bikes or specific bikes like an roubaix or synapse they just aren't going to have the same flex and are more likely to snap. and good look warranting those because you really can't well with a dealer you have a life time warranty and are buying something made by professionals, True a lot of them are made in china, but the companies work hand in hand with the factories sorting out all issues extremely fast they are professionals, not professionals copiers, its up to you but you can't beat quality
So help me get one thing straight. Are the Chinese COPIES of name brand bikes the ones you see failing? What about just Chinese Frames, not necessarily copying anyone, do you see those failing as well? There are some well to do Chinese brands trying to put out good products, and I think we should steer clear of lumping all Chinese frames as being of low quality. Clarification would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Sorry, I believe what you're saying is the true COPIES are lower quality, but NOT necessarily lumping other Chinese frames in with the failing/lower quality product. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks again.
Its primarily just the copies but I'm not too sure about the other frames if they can sell it cheaper its usually because they use cheaper resins and carbon sheets
and as far as quality goes I do not think it even comes close. they can get the over all shape pretty similar, but for example on a specialized bike each frame size is completely different, the 52 is different than a 58 in both thickness and measurements they do this to ensure ride quality. so in a copy they aren't going to have all the details about how thick to make a 52 compared to a 58 they can guess but its gonna be different. there is just a ton of meticulous research and technology that these guys put into making the frames, and to buy a copy because its cheaper and you just want the brand name is shit, at least take the logos off
Thank you for your insight. But as the video suggests, the companies putting out cheaper frames don't have to do nearly as much marketing, and if Toray CF is used, I'm not sure what "cheaper carbon sheets" are. Higher modulus, high cost, but does not necessarily equal better bike.
Hi! Greetings! Tks for the review! Could you give some more infos about where did you buy them? What site? Almost one year after this review, you have some more words to say about the frames? Tks again for your words!!!
***** dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
Great review bro! For those who dont like chinese goods...hate to bring this to you but almost everything comes out of china apart from the american ego/view offcourse...thats made in USA!
Hi Liang I'm planning also to buy Pinarello. Can you please tell me which store is safe to buy for Pinarello? I search from Taobao. You can recommend me some of good suppliers in China. Thx
Lay of with the china hate, ok people? It's not 1999 anymore so GROW UP. There's nothing wrong with producers of bike parts undercutting each other. In the end that benefits us, especially those of us who don't have very deep pockets.
There is lots of things wrong with it, and that's a fact. There is nothing wrong in competition, but making a fucking copy with the manufacturers name on it, shaped exactly the same where they spend time and money on developing the product? How can you say this is OK? Let them make their own shapes, their own brands for people who don't have money - noone is going to have a problem with that. But of course people who don't have money like to pretend they DO have money, so you have to buy a fucking fake Pinarello. So the issue is with people like you supporting fraud and oversimplify their reasoning and explanations for it.
Why should i buy a fake when i can buy original designs from chinese brands? With good quality and performance? In my opinion buying fake pinarellos is like buying fake Rolex watches. It's just for the looks, never the performance. It comes down to egoism, to show off to the world. I own a Chinese brand road bike that costs me 1,5k Eur and i always wondered about the reactions when people see it for the first time: "What a beautiful bike! Amazing, what brand is that, I've never heard of it." Etc . It's a full custom built and every screw is carefully chosen to match the bike in performance and style. I could afford a Pinarello Dogma, but i don't want to. Why? Because i don't care about other people's opinions and think the Dogma one of the ugliest Road bikes ever. Fork and seatstays look like it has been in a crash already and they're bend. Most carbon fiber frames from big companies are scam and rip people of. The frames are cheaply produced overseas, get a paint job in house and called "made in -insert country if choice-". I only can recommend Hambini and Lüscher Teknik for this topic. You don't pay for development, you pay for marketing and a brand sticker.
I would never buy a product from a company that does not stand behind her brand. I'd rather buy a specialised or giant aluminium frame, that rides just as good.
Thanks for the video. One of my coworkers went to Taiwan and purchased that exact bike. Now I was not there to confirm what he told me, but what he told me was they walked him around the factory and were very upfront about where they don't meet Pinarello standards. A lot of the shortcomings were in the finish of the bike. That said, I live in Korea and fake parts coming from China are a big issue here. The scariest are that parts showing up for scooters. I witnessed a demonstration of a scooter front fork striking a curb. The real one bent bent the fake one broke into parts. Personally I believe the bike industry is going to go though a massive change. Small manufactures offering quality carbon frames with custom paint will be the next big thing. I know that many will disagree, but you must remember every big name out there was a small name at one time. Thanks for the video!
I agree with you the part it is not really possible to control the quality of those "fake" bikes, some are good, few maybe bad. The buyer really need to understand this industry. about breaking, all carbon bikes break if you crash, doesn't really matter which one. The finish between the fake and real is very different, you can see from the weave of the carbon, among fakes there are very good ones and less good ones, you should not choose the cheapest in the market.
Douglas Henderson Unfortunately many of these frames are brandless or are mimicking/stealing other brand's namesakes. Thus they're not trying to become the "next big thing." They're out here to make as much money before the manufacturer whom they're stealing the designs of gets them shut down. This is where being based in China comes into play as the Chinese government doesn't enforce copyright infringement and intellectual property laws or if they do, it's only to allow them to be shut down and reopened under a different name for the process to start again. This is why you'll never see these frames bring brought into any of the developed economic countries in any formal sense. Never will there be a dealer network inside the EU or North America, never will these copied design frames be readily available except through sites located outside the countries with copyright law and will be sent in as one off purchases. Because once they establish any kind of entity inside - they'll get shut down as soon as Pinarello, Giant, Specialized or whatever finds them. As not only do they steal the designs, they label it as if it was the real thing. It's called counterfeiting and China is the mecca of it. That being said, I'm not adverse to them trying to break into the industry with their own designs based upon the techniques seen in released bikes. But do it with your own branding and develop your own name. Sites like Nashbar have bought some of these generic Chinese carbon fiber frames and slapped their name sake on them and that's all well and good. If these factories can just mimic what they see in bike designs incorporate it into a mold and produce it with a massive profit due to near zero R&D by all means do it. As long as they can guarantee safety through thorough testing of each component (which I assume Nashbar and other sites would demand) then all is well and good. The issue is with those factories that have found the margin they can make on copied bikes is appealing and thus they'll continue to copy and sell until the market (those who buy them) doesn't allow them to do so anymore. The biggest thing, as you pointed out with your scooter forks, is safety. There are minimal safety checks on these bikes as the production volumes are already quite low - there's no margin to pull one frame out of 100 and do a high stress to destruction test - if they even have a device that can give a quantitative number. Or if even every part produced is quality tested before leaving the factory or if it's only one out of ten. I'd doubt they do even half the quality checks Giant does or if they do them it at all on every piece made. You just don't know how 'safe' these frames are until you test it yourself. Liang Qiao tries to state that these frames use lower level carbon thus you don't see them failing which is complete BS. Check youtube, check any cycling site, it's harder to find but there is still reports of these failing - these frames fail too except they're sold in MUCH MUCH lower quantity so there are less failure stories compared to the big 4. Liang Qiao even says carbon is fragile in another post, so how can't there be a failure story?? It's quite naive to believe there's been zero failures. But if you don't mind being the test mule like your scooter forks by all means you can pick up one of these no name (or names that haven't been around long) frames for your own personal testing. I for one think having a frame/fork fail on me during a 40 mph turn would be a horrid thing and paying extra for a bike that I know has been tested is worth it. That being said, these copy cat frames aren't much cheaper than the 'cheap' low level carbon any of the big 4 offers. So the only reason to really go with these frames is looks. You can get a (just using Giant for reference) a TCR composite for less than $1800 and it will probably ride better than any of these copycat bikes. So why buy it? Looks. Wanting something that looks like a Pinarello Dogma - it's that simple. As it's only marginally or no cheaper than just buying a low level carbon bike from a reputable dealer in your area and getting it built up. The bottom line is safety should be paramount for an activity where you're essentially unprotected and moving at high speeds. You can't be sure it's even somewhat assured by thorough testing when buying the Chinese knock off. Liang's advice is, "you should not choose the cheapest in the market." Great! That makes me feel safe! Considering this whole market segment is the cheapest in the market... But not only that, buying the full counterfeit like Liang Qiao's 'Pinarello' (or just buying from a company which offers that) essentially says a little money and looks trump ethics and safety as you not only are going to ride that bike, you're also supporting that company and their business model.
Hi Thanks for a great video. Last year I bough a top of the line carbon bike from Canyon. Loved the feel of it until the seat tube got cracks around the seat clamp. Happened to the replacement bike as well. I used a calibrated (with certificate) torque wrench to apply correct torque and still they cracked after a few hours of riding. Got a Cervelo for this year so I will see how it performs. I didnt try the chinese "brands" since I didnt see them available here in Europe. Anyway it was interesting to hear your experiences :-)
Tearstank soo even GRAND names in the industry like Canyon makes bad frames, so this thing with buying chinese frames is a good thing.... quality is just a random chance
gaby161290 ... Quality isn't random nor is quality about making a 100% reliable product. If you don't understand those two points you're pretty hopeless.
Agree, the cracks didnt have with production quality to do (I think). I think it was a faulty design from the start. The new version of the same frame is redesigned at this area and I think that has to do with all the returns they got!! Canyon simply made a design mistake with the Ultimate CF frame up until middle of 2015.
Tearstank so... getting a bike for 5000 $ and it has cracks and the design is faulty.... nice R&D top quality there, money well spent I must say.... you could buy a motorcycle that has a motor and moving parts that have to stand forces that no bike can comprehend. or a crappy second hand car... but no... you can buy a state of the art original cracking frame.... nice. please tell me how flawless are these original frames and how full of errors are the "fake" ones?
gaby161290 You're an idiot. You really don't understand how much it costs to make a 100% reliable product. No company in their right mind (nor would you as a rider since it would be a LOT heavier) would design their product to be 100% reliable. What he described was a weakness of the design, but you know what? He's got a warranty to deal with that, your counterfeits don't have crap.
I wouldn't have any issue buying one of these if they could assure me that some kind of performance testing results came with them. My big worry is the frame failing.
voon yau kok dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
Some top brands do ODM business with Taiwanese manufacturers as well. That means, in some cases, the big guys, for example, ask their suppliers in Taiwan to come up with 2 or 3 new designs for them to choose from. If they choose, say, Model B, then they will pay for the design fee for B and issue order for production. So, what about Model A? No, if the big guys don't pay for it, they don't own the copyright, and the ODM supplier retains the copyright. Model A in most cases is no less competitive than Model B, and it's only a matter of the big buy's subjective preference that reflects their "bets" on next season's market trend. The equally good (more or less) Model A is then adopted by the supplier's own brand or a third party. A few months later, Model A appears on local market with a somewhat friendlier (but still sickeningly steep) price tag. These are the legitimate "good stuff", not at all knock-offs or copies.
he makes a great point about the stiffness of the t1000 versus t700 carbon and is also echoed in the comments below. They use more t7 and 800 to compensate for the expensive t1000 but you don't want too much of the higher end t1000. This also may be where some of the art vs science of the original creators comes through when balancing weight versus comfort. In other words, the chinese/asian made bike may weigh more AND not ride as nicely as the real McCoy. The difference is several thousand US$
Tate K dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
Thanx for this video liang qiao. You have a balanced approach,firm reasoning and give due honor to the original companies who develop the technologies. Time will really tell as more and more riders are putting bikes and frames to the test in their lives. So like all products,the proof will be in the pudding....not in hearsay. cheers :)
Where can I buy one, I have trouble receiving my item by mail, you can pay by receipt of the item. And what is the price of a bike I'm 185 cm tall and weighs approx. 90 kg
So what do you suggest. To buy a copied road bike or not to buy . I want to buy a copied road bike . but i a confuses the copied road bike quality is good or not.
Completely agree to just buy a carbon frame without any branding on the original brand. There's a number of companies in China that are producing their own carbon framesets. Not copies and beautiful geometries. Lots of options out there. I wonder how many commenters hating on copied framesets have ever watched or downloaded a moving online.
I have a chinese frame with chinese parts(handlebar, saddle), chinese Wheels, with Shimano Ultegra R8000(not counterfeited)... Well, and I have to tell you one thing... I don’t have any problem with what I bought, granted I didn’t go for the 200€ frame... my frame is a 2018 Costelo Speedmachine 3.0 Ultra Light, SM-03(color) size 49 for 452,71€, I absolutely love it!!! My handlebars are TOSEEK Integrated handlebar and stem, 400mmx100mm for 52,81€, TOSEEK carbon saddle 270mmx135mm for 24,92€, TOSEEK carbon bottle cages for 20,24€(pair) and CSC 38mm Clincher(25mm width) Sapim CX Ray spokes, and powerway R36 ceramic hubs for 475,89€ and full Shimano Ultegra R8000 for 500€ new(a deal from a club member) I AM a big supporter of “chinese” carbon parts... not counterfeit... but branded ones, Costelo sponsors two teams! Send them a message and they’ll be very open, send pics and they even have a brazillien team website... TOSEEK I just took the risk, not too cheap and not to expensive, after the first order(handlebars) I ordered my other parts... and CSC they sound like they know what they’re doing, they have a official website(ChinaSpeedCycles) and are very supportive and honest, and that kinda bought me into it, I’m currently looking to buy a rear disk wheel and a 60mm front wheel from them, for TT’s... My advice... Don’t go for the absolute cheapest! Contact the seller and see what they have to offer... compare sellers! Some seller I messaged gave me a 50€ discount just from talking to them... That threw me off of buying their products... I am very happy with all my products... The company where I bought the wheels, was honest and told me I probably need to true the wheels in a bike shop, because they only assemble the wheel, so it can keep itself attached... I went to a local bikeshop, they did it for free(very good friend of mine)... 6 months after that no problems! I should probably say that I am a very very light rider... I’m 56kg, 1,71m just so you can take a wild guess to what size you should get... they all have a geometry chart in their products details so give them a read! Peace
Great video explaining the reality of the ocean we do business in. And I stress reality because most companies don't get it. They complain when someone inovates a process or a product and yet they want to capitalize on those same things as a company using this business model, then they are left frustrated and scratching their head when someone copies them or inovates around their big price tag. What they need to do is lean to work with the world that they find themselves in instead of stomping up and down like a teenager saying all of the market share I'm loosing should just pay my high price because of who I am. When companies stop working against the current of change in the market of innovation, then they will actually increase their profits, if not they will die a slow death like a company should that just relies on loyalty to make profits.
The only difference is the strength as you said, also the stiffness if a factor. I have one and it's not that stiff it flexes a little bit. That's how you can tell
how much will they charge you? do you also have to have them pick out small parts? it seems like that wouldnt be cost effective vs. buying a name brand
juanjeremy2012 I live in Belgium, bike shops are pro, they charge me 150-200EUR/bike (including bolts, caps, small parts). If you choose electric groupset it will be very expensive. It really depends on where you live, in China is 50EUR, but I doubt the quality.
Build it yourself, mate. There's nothing like your relationship with your own bike when you build it with your own hands :-). Bicycles are not complicated machines. And I find myself disappointed often with build qualifies from LBS.
The BIG problem with the copies is that without the original hard work and investment of the developers, the copy makers would not have anything good to offer. So, basically is stealing intellectual property and making money with someones else's talent. But this always tends to fade away in people's minds. In some others, it doesn't even occur to them, only the money they are saving...
kuldeep patil dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
Hi Liang.How are the Carbon copy bikes holding up? Can you do another video review? People need to know.I'm thinking of getting a bike from China.Thanks!
I agree with you to say that the original brands are paying a lot for R&D, etc. what can explain a bit the final price, but disagree with the fact that the sponsoring also cost a lot for the brand. More you market your products, more you will sell them, so at the end the brand will amortize the cost of its sponsoring and making more money thanks to that.
www.dengfubikes.com (these aren't pinarellos but they are still copies) www.ebay.com/itm/New-UD-Full-Carbon-Fiber-700C-Road-Bike-Frame-Fork-Headset-56-58cm-BSA-/281470224870?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4188eec9e6 (ebay; this one is a pinarello copy without any pinarello branding)
I seriously doubt an 'average' rider can't feel the difference between a Pinarello and a copy. A carbon frame is not just an empty shell of carbon and the thickness of carbon varies A LOT from part to part. And only the actual team that designed the shape with a CAD can define this thickness
This video provided healthy information, I like the honesty and descriptions..I'd like to know the exact website you made the purchase from and what's the weight of the bikes please. Thank you.
I would like to say that the molds of the frames are generic molds, that is also a reason why the Chinese carbon frames are so cheap. Big brands that produce bikes usually design there own frames, which requires time, money and effort
To the guys who were swearing down there, buying whats affordable for ourselves is an individual decision, be it real (over priced) or copied/fake/china make (alot cheaper for general public). It doesnt matter if you guys argue about whether the original make has higher quality or more durable or perform better, there are real cases and cyclists who use OEM products and still last longer than those who have paid for fancy brands. Some of you guys are just against China as a country and its reputation but come on, 90% of the electronics that you guys are touching and using are all from China, inculding America's pride, Apple. Theres no right and wrong in buying from which manufacturer, some of us just wouldnt or couldnt spend that much on the brand name. All you guys up there fighting and swearing each other are just picking on his sentences and act like children. Why not the guys who were so confident down there, go out there buy both the 12k Dogma F10 and the OEM one, test both out and tell us the actual difference and why theres a need for you to critisize on Chinese products. For those who literally hate Chinese products why not stop using your laptop, TV, Fridge and Handphones then, if our western society is that capable and independent why are YOU still using and living with Chinese products? Dont be so narrow minded and talk like an asshole on the internet.
Why do you think they are cheaper? Ride down a mountain at top speed and when the fork cracks and you land in the emergency room you will understand. To buy copies like that with company logo is pure theft.
buying counterfeit goods is illegal in Australia, period. I have no issues buy Chinese brands as long as they don't rip off intellectual property from other companies and have proper quality control procedures. For those that supports the trades of counterfeit products are no different to a thief that have no moral judgements.
it would be good to see heavier carbon hybrid frames availible with rack mounts 2.8kg frame weight with thicker carbon layers for riders who want a carbon frame with more weight to it for stability on bumpy roads.
When you buy a Chinese Copy , its like buying Generic Prescription Medicine , or no name brands In America. You purchase items like this every day sometimes without realizing it. Even your name brand products use generic materials in them. Sorry to bust Your Bubble.
I don't know about that.. When you buy a generic drug, it's regulated and has quality control standards that tell you you're getting what you paid for. Carbon frame copies don't necessarily have the same quality. I've seen frames where the seat tube is too tight to move your post up/down, where the headset fits loosely, etc. The manufacturer takes them back on warranty, but you have to pay shipping back to China to return the frame, which means a couple hundred bucks.. That said, there still are great copies out there.
liang qiao how many years have you been using the campag wheels bro? can you send me the seller name pls? thanks. im planning to buy a time frame and campag wheels. cheers lastly, did you get it from aliexpress or ebay? :) :)
I worked for a major bike player that had its own house brand. Our Carbon frame and the Look came from the same factory in the Orient, and had the same modulus. There are but a handful of mfg's making everyone's stuff. Here's a little inside baseball. The ChiCom's cheat, meaning name brand bikes need to be pulled from a production line and cut up and inspected, because name brand tube set steel bikes when chopped up revealed seamed tubes. I would suspect the same in the world if carbon.
DatProPubstomper dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
It's a counterfeit, not a copy, and it's illegal for a reason. When the counterfeiter sells the products the profit goes to them. When the counterfeit product fails, the brand name damage goes to the original.
+Vlad IV RomanianKnightofChrist777 says: "Can YOU afford an original??? If not, then SHUT UP" == I thought the whole purpose of buying the name brand is the bragging right(to show off your spending power). I can be very happy with no name bicycle as long as it performs as it should. What's the point of buying a no name brand bicycle with a famous name sticker on it cheap and later tell your friends that it's actually a fake?
Very honest video, thanks! I would try one of those carbon bikes, and totally understand about the high mod carbon being weaker and too stiff. I personally would not have a copy named one, but one with a different none name with a good build would be just fine... I hear the rims that come out are pretty good as well... So I think I'd be ok with trying one out. And agree, that they would be very rideable. The originals costs way more because of what you explained. But, yeah, just don't put the original name of brand, and use another name, any name...Great information!
Laurentiu Dorosin dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike(wheel) factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
I personally using china made carbon roadbike as well. I would say I can't tell the difference of the quality of the bike compare to original! But I agree with you that we shouldn't buy those with international branding on the frame.
I really think these Asian Bike outfits should go with simple designed bikes with their own brands painted up or not, fine take inspiration from big company's for the design but come up with your own models. I do think its possible to come up with that. There is a market for that 900grams to 1000 grams Carbon frames for £250-£300.
Anthony Hall you must think that only the 'westerner' purchase these copied bikes. I believe there are other cyclist on this planet. I might be wrong. With that said: You are correct. By purchasing these bikes the consumer does several things. 1) Promotes theft in so many areas. 2) Increases the cost to the honest consumer. 3) Has no reliable recourse when the fames folds on a big downhill. 4) There is no warranty and now you are out a bike and the new bike will cost you, double. How? Because you lost the money on the purchase of the first frame and now have to purchase a new frame. Yeah, I hate paying $3000 plus for my bike, but when I need the manufacturer, which is rare, I have them. Good luck.
I ordered To carbonbikeframe7 a ( pinarello F10 BB30 frame ). Immediately it was found that the bottom bracket was poorly factory. Indeed in its central part, it is not completely empty which does not allow to receive the different offers of the market. In addition it was poorly factory and is not symmetrical, which means that the pedal can not work properly and resistance BB30 bearings which has blocked the operation of the pedal with a strong resistance. I have tried several times to get my money back without success by contesting to capital one credit card my transaction. The only solution that was offered with all the évidences of the manufacturing defect, was to return the frame to the seller by paying myself the transport. The cost of the operation a loss of 120 € for the transport and 54 € for the customs payed .
My experience with a copy.
I always have been riding really good frames from top brands and some custom italian frames Spezzotto (great ones), two years ago i brough a copy of a Time frame from alibaba, I did it because I had curiosity and I wanted to have a less expensive second road bike for some trainings. I was really amazed with the good performance of that frame, it climbs and acelerate as good as an original and more expensive frame, only noticiable diferences are the weight (not heavy anyway) and the internal finishing. Now that bike its been used by a sub 23 racer and its in perfect conditions. Im not in favor of use the brands but I wanted to give my honest and positive feedback of these frames.
thank you!
Venga va. Dale una copia a froome, a ver lo que te dice... En fin. Montáis poco en bici.
Joaquin Menarguez Bas Venga chaval cuando quieras me buscas en Strava y hablamos. Actualmente compito con una Scott foil y es un cohete pero en mi equipo hay un tio con una copia de Dogma y deja a muchos pegados.
Froome con una copia igual se escapa.
+Andrés Omaña a mí lo que tu hagas en strava... Por lo menos yo lo admito, admito que soy un globero, no me las doy de pro ni pollas, no tienes mas que ver algún video de mi canal. Aún así, mira la velocidad a la que vamos, y la bici mas patata es la mía, y ronda los 3,000€ ya con el Ultegra di2.
De ahí para arriba. Gente que no se la juega con mierdas chinas, ni siquiera tú, que reconoces tener una buena bici, y no una copia de este de gafas que se cree ingeniero de la NASA.
A cualquiera, froome o cualquier pro le das una copia y te la tira a la cabeza, y lo sabes.
Mi seguridad vale mas que una diferencia de 2.000€. Pero mucho mucho mas...! Esta gente solo sabe reventar el mercado a base de mierdas pero eso no es lo peor, lo peor es que ponen tu seguridad en peligro. Llevar un teléfono chino en un bolsillo es como llevar una bomba de relojería. Y una bicicleta ya ni te cuento. En fin, que quieres que te diga.
+Andrés Omaña a que te refieres con dejar a muchos "pegados"? Deja a muchos con la boca abierta por tan buen desempeño de la bicicleta copia??
Liang,
If I were to but a carbon frame which suppliers on Alibba should I use.
Thanks
Pay the extortionate prices for the brand names if you're daft enough & a bike snob. Bravo for the Chinese for making carbon frames afordable for the majority of us.
I think the point is that he making is the frame is only one part of the package. They essentially stole the R&D part of the process and are only passing on the price of the manufacturing of the frames. Would you think the same if they stole all the material from someone and sold you a cheap frame with such low overhead costs because they steal the supplies? Maybe it still would not matter to you as you are getting a cheap frame in the end. But the point of the matter is that their costs are artificially low because of theft.
Chinese should copy Environmental Laws.
Maglia Nera LOL
then your dogma copy would be almost same price as real one...
Fuck off...
It would make them no money 💰
I have no problem w/ carbon bikes made in China. Purchase what you like at the end of the day! Just don't ride or purchase a counterfeit logo'd Pinarello. Stop trying to fool yourself or other people. If it's just a copied bike, does it really need a Pinarello logo? No...but people want to drive a Ferrari when it's actually a Daihatsu is just silly.
S Ballard correct. I guarantee you this, all the people that buy fakes then start riding them it doesn't take long before their conscience gets to them and they know they are a loser for bullshitting themselves. A month later they post it for sale.
Agreed. I've bought carbon wheelset from China and specifically chose one without any fake branding on it and I plan to do the same with a frame sometime in the future.
If I was sub 70kg I would sit and ride a chinarello. At 91kg I would not want to thrash the bike over cobbles. I suspect the moulds for these copies are leaked from the Taiwanese factories that produce the real frames for the big names. This is why the exterior carbon shapes look almost identical. I suspest the difference comes in three areas.
1. The prepreg carbon chosen. Cheaper Toray vs higher end pre preg sheets with better QC checks.
2. The layup pattern. The copies may lack the proper layup pattern. You cannot tell this from the outstide.
3. The layup QC (quality control and audit) will certainly lack the quality control checks that the big Taiwanese factories have for the big names.
These factors for me will affect one thing drastically. Fatigue life. A one time ride may yield no difference in a copy and a real frame. However, would you want to continue thrashing your copy frame knowing the corners that have been cut. NO! When carbon lets go, it does so with little warning. It is going to hurt. Would I buy a copy steel frame? Probably yes.
stoppsi well there are scanners and CT scans for reverse engineering. So 1 & 2 solved.
Hahaha this thread is like the Gibson vs Chinese Gibson (Chibson) debate in the guitar world
I think it comes down too your economic status and what your views of a good bike
People worrying about the companies, oh please, you really think that pinerallo care for you sucking up to them?
I don't get why people are so stuck with a company, unless sponsored of course
If I can get a decent Chinese bike that is going to last and perform just as good as a top branded one (I'm sure a majority of brands use factories in China, the difference being Quality control) then I'll take it
Then if you look at the cost factor it's almost a sure thing
It's not being delusional or stupid or anything else
And PS. Carbon is cheap not expensive so I don't know why top end bikes are over 5k let alone being 10k
If anyone can please logically explain to me why a bike would be in that price range that would be great oh and if you can't logically properly explain it you will be blocked
+Notinserviceij well put man.. why are carbon fiber bike are expensive
agree. at 91kg, u shouldn't ride chinarello. safe ride, ride safe. cheers
We're do you order these bikes for please send me link . Thank you
你好，我想问下你在哪里买的，淘宝吗？有卖家信息不
When will part 2 come out!
I appreciate your honesty in the video, and I imagine for most riders these bikes would be fine, but I would never ride a counterfeit bike with official logos on it. That's just bad karma as I see it.
+Phil Anderson I agree, I rather have debaged, haha I actually have a crappy bike from target like yeas back of with an aluminum frame, I stripped off the stickers, luckily, they were all stickers, no paint jobs, just a top coat to seal in the aluminum
You can never have enough spacers in your Pinarello Dogma.
Hi Liang, can you please spec your bike: group set, brakes etc. Where did you buy this and how much did it cost total?
I bought my bike at Milan bike shop from Guangzhou. I think now the frame cost about 400EUR, groupset Ultegra 6700 about 500EUR, wheels 500EUR, and some accessory.
what website did you use to buy your bike or frame? ive been looking on ebay but I cant seems to find the frame that I want, any help from you will be greatly appreciate Liang Qiao
you can go to aliexpress, there are plenty of them. Just choose one with good reference, they are usually from Guangzhou or Shenzhen.
hey Liang Qiao, after watching your video.
my current bike is aluminium, and aluminium doesn't flex so there wont be a big difference with a stiff carbon frame right ?
the bike im planning to buy is a copy of the LOOK 795 aerolight and it says its 3k weave and t1000 carbon, i don't know the difference, while the original one has 1.5k carbon. i don't know if that's the weave or the carbon quality. i also hesitated to go for pinarello but i prefer the LOOK design in the end. the website is dhgate i don't know if its a good place to buy, maybe you have a better website to suggest. thank you for your opinion :)
It is relatively easy to tell the difference in stiffness. You can most likely even tell the bottom brackets apart. Bb386 with screw together bb is the stiffest.
I rode a chinnese dengfu made bike for 2years. I have had no problems at all with the frame. Some of my friends who rode fancy bikes had to change frames few times becuase of some issues. So i am buying anothe frame from dengfu, custom painted.
I don't like to buy those copies, but frames from small manufacturers such as hongfu and dengfu are very reliable.
Once i had to buy extra hangers which only cost me 2dollars, and at the smae time my buddy who rode cannondale had to pay 35 dollars for one hanger.
I am not a rich guy that can aford 1000 or more usd bike. But in a race riding, i always came in top level among club members.
Simply put, chinese knock offs, i don't know. But frame from small chinese company, thumbs up.
Yeah I also think the generics are a much safer bet than the copies.
2019....the quality is vastly improved....especially the carbon wheels
Thank you for so much insight! Could you please share, what is the best Chinese Road Racing bike brand that’s at a reasonable price?
Thanks in advance!
where can i buy those copies!?
lucino orbegoso dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
That's great
Pinarello dogma f8
I appreciated the video for providing an owners view of the bikes and for sharing some of the technical information about the frame qualities. I like that you put your family name on the frame ... nice touch.
My copy lasted longer than my real brand bike
I'd like to get a chinarello dogma painted like caisse d'epargne team colors from 2010. Still possible? What vendor is good. Thanks.
do they sell these copys in local bike stores? or r they all sold online?
Hey Liang, really loved the video review of these bikes. Thanks a ton buddy, was really helpful. I am still unable to decide as to which weave should I go in for, 1k or the 3k. Roads here in India aren't the best and have potholes. Could you help me with that please?
Hi Vikram, thx. For the finishing, my suggestion: if you can, go for 1k, it looks better. Although it will not make any quality difference, the appearance is better.
my question is about your groupset. did you buy the bike as a full package with a groupset? if so is the groupset genuine? do the ones that come with these di2 groupset or whatever genuine?
yes, I bought the whole bike. Only the carbon parts are copies, all rest are genuine: groupset, speedplay pedals, S-works shoes, etc.
The bike maker don't sell anything else but the frame, fork and handbars. I bought all rest on Taobao and asked the bike maker to put into one package and send to me.
liang qiao so you got the frame groupset and all from tao bao from probably around $500. i just find it mind boggling the components are genuine. the price of these dura ace components alone (retail) is around $1000. very cool
no, no, my complete bike is 16500RMB, about 2660USD; the frame was 3000RMB (483USD), Ultegra 6700 is 4600RMB (742USD), and I have very expensive wheelsets and handbars. Real difference is only the carbon parts.
interesting. I am probably gonna pick up some wheels from dhgate to upgrade my 2011 madone 3.1. Thanks for replying!
it was a year ago one cyclist posted on FB bought a chinarello frame. he got in to crash and split the frame in half. what he found inside the frame were Chinese newspaper partly to form the frame.
***** omg, this urban legend has been round for at least 5 years and is doing a great job of scaring prospective buyers away. it's a great story, but it's a story.
If I may, is there a dealer or website where one could buy an undranded Chinese carbon bike?
So did you have to take it somewhere to get it painted ? Or did you do it yourself ?
I have had a chinese 26” mtb and I have put on it more than 8000km. Never had any issues, raced with it and also did long mtb rides. It cost me 250€. Next bike I am going to buy is a 29” mtb.
Also chinese.The difference between a cheap and an authentic frame is difficult to tell at amateure level and is not worth the money I think. What I noticed though when comparing my chinese frame to a Canyon frame is rigidity. Authentic frames are more rigid and tend to preserve that stiffness during time. One thing I noticed in my frame was that during time it lost a little bit of rigidity but nothing to worry about or that can affect performance!
Personally, I have a OEM Replica of a Pinarello Dogma 60.1 that's made it Taiwan. Bought it off from a guy, so it's second hand, for just $1500 as a half complete bike. The only thing I had to buy was a new clip-pedal and install a saddle which I already have before the purchase. I've been riding on it for about a few months now and I have got to say, it's a pretty solid bike to be honest. I've already crashed it once by mistake, ridden through speeds bumps and pot holes with it and still can't find a single crack on the frame at all. Altogether with a Mavic Aksium Wheelset, Shimano Ultegra-6800(11-Speed) and other components, it weighed about 9 KG the last time I check and it's pretty stiff to ride on.
Some people might not respect the idea of buying a Non-Authentic but for me, money is kind of hard to come by, I couldn't afford the real one and neither am I trying to act rich. All I want is just simply a CF bike that I can really depend on that's cheap.
I think really: There's actually nothing shameful on buying these copies. The only real problem would come in when people pose them as a real one and sell it for as high and scamming people. As long as it's a bike that will not break apart on you, it doesn't really matter if it's fake.
Galleon Chua how does it help up by now? still in good condition?
Galleon Chua you're a tool. And a crashed carbon bike is a weakened bike. Why would you risk your life for a few bucks? Wait til that steerer snaps.....
where did you buy them from?
Question. Is it a copy if it all comes from the same factory and it's made by the same people?
It does not come from the same factory.
Hi, thanks for the video! I am from Singapore, just want to ask which website you bought these bikes from?
Dian Charlo Valentine aliexpress
Where can I get one in the UK?
I work at a bike shop and I can tell you that at least with the specialized and cannondale they are no where close to the same in quality we get a couple people a year with the chinese copies who frames just straight up crack in half, you can buy them if you want but you will be getting a lower quality carbon less layers and lower quality resin. Can't feel the difference in them... wait till you do a century on both one. especially if you are talking about cliche bikes or specific bikes like an roubaix or synapse they just aren't going to have the same flex and are more likely to snap. and good look warranting those because you really can't well with a dealer you have a life time warranty and are buying something made by professionals, True a lot of them are made in china, but the companies work hand in hand with the factories sorting out all issues extremely fast they are professionals, not professionals copiers, its up to you but you can't beat quality
So help me get one thing straight. Are the Chinese COPIES of name brand bikes the ones you see failing? What about just Chinese Frames, not necessarily copying anyone, do you see those failing as well? There are some well to do Chinese brands trying to put out good products, and I think we should steer clear of lumping all Chinese frames as being of low quality. Clarification would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Sorry, I believe what you're saying is the true COPIES are lower quality, but NOT necessarily lumping other Chinese frames in with the failing/lower quality product. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks again.
Its primarily just the copies but I'm not too sure about the other frames if they can sell it cheaper its usually because they use cheaper resins and carbon sheets
and as far as quality goes I do not think it even comes close. they can get the over all shape pretty similar, but for example on a specialized bike each frame size is completely different, the 52 is different than a 58 in both thickness and measurements they do this to ensure ride quality. so in a copy they aren't going to have all the details about how thick to make a 52 compared to a 58 they can guess but its gonna be different. there is just a ton of meticulous research and technology that these guys put into making the frames, and to buy a copy because its cheaper and you just want the brand name is shit, at least take the logos off
Thank you for your insight. But as the video suggests, the companies putting out cheaper frames don't have to do nearly as much marketing, and if Toray CF is used, I'm not sure what "cheaper carbon sheets" are. Higher modulus, high cost, but does not necessarily equal better bike.
Is there a website I can go to so I can look into buying one?
i m flying to shenzhen this week, where should i look for a triathlon frame over there
Hi! Greetings! Tks for the review!
Could you give some more infos about where did you buy them? What site?
Almost one year after this review, you have some more words to say about the frames?
Tks again for your words!!!
***** dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
Great review bro! For those who dont like chinese goods...hate to bring this to you but almost everything comes out of china apart from the american ego/view offcourse...thats made in USA!
Hi Liang I'm planning also to buy Pinarello. Can you please tell me which store is safe to buy for Pinarello? I search from Taobao. You can recommend me some of good suppliers in China. Thx
Where can you buy these frames??
aliexpress.com
Lay of with the china hate, ok people? It's not 1999 anymore so GROW UP. There's nothing wrong with producers of bike parts undercutting each other. In the end that benefits us, especially those of us who don't have very deep pockets.
There is lots of things wrong with it, and that's a fact. There is nothing wrong in competition, but making a fucking copy with the manufacturers name on it, shaped exactly the same where they spend time and money on developing the product? How can you say this is OK? Let them make their own shapes, their own brands for people who don't have money - noone is going to have a problem with that. But of course people who don't have money like to pretend they DO have money, so you have to buy a fucking fake Pinarello. So the issue is with people like you supporting fraud and oversimplify their reasoning and explanations for it.
Where can I buy one of these online? And how much!
where can I buy one of this frame. I really need one. I can't afford the original one.
I might add, that, there are some very good aluminum frames out there that are worth looking into, much less to worry about...
Why should i buy a fake when i can buy original designs from chinese brands? With good quality and performance? In my opinion buying fake pinarellos is like buying fake Rolex watches. It's just for the looks, never the performance. It comes down to egoism, to show off to the world. I own a Chinese brand road bike that costs me 1,5k Eur and i always wondered about the reactions when people see it for the first time: "What a beautiful bike! Amazing, what brand is that, I've never heard of it." Etc . It's a full custom built and every screw is carefully chosen to match the bike in performance and style. I could afford a Pinarello Dogma, but i don't want to. Why? Because i don't care about other people's opinions and think the Dogma one of the ugliest Road bikes ever. Fork and seatstays look like it has been in a crash already and they're bend. Most carbon fiber frames from big companies are scam and rip people of. The frames are cheaply produced overseas, get a paint job in house and called "made in -insert country if choice-". I only can recommend Hambini and Lüscher Teknik for this topic. You don't pay for development, you pay for marketing and a brand sticker.
On this subject this video is no doubt one of the best & the most accurate honest opinions on the net.
Well put together sir & respect.
I would never buy a product from a company that does not stand behind her brand. I'd rather buy a specialised or giant aluminium frame, that rides just as good.
Thanks for the video. One of my coworkers went to Taiwan and purchased that exact bike. Now I was not there to confirm what he told me, but what he told me was they walked him around the factory and were very upfront about where they don't meet Pinarello standards. A lot of the shortcomings were in the finish of the bike. That said, I live in Korea and fake parts coming from China are a big issue here. The scariest are that parts showing up for scooters. I witnessed a demonstration of a scooter front fork striking a curb. The real one bent bent the fake one broke into parts.
Personally I believe the bike industry is going to go though a massive change. Small manufactures offering quality carbon frames with custom paint will be the next big thing. I know that many will disagree, but you must remember every big name out there was a small name at one time. Thanks for the video!
I agree with you the part it is not really possible to control the quality of those "fake" bikes, some are good, few maybe bad. The buyer really need to understand this industry. about breaking, all carbon bikes break if you crash, doesn't really matter which one. The finish between the fake and real is very different, you can see from the weave of the carbon, among fakes there are very good ones and less good ones, you should not choose the cheapest in the market.
Douglas Henderson Unfortunately many of these frames are brandless or are mimicking/stealing other brand's namesakes. Thus they're not trying to become the "next big thing." They're out here to make as much money before the manufacturer whom they're stealing the designs of gets them shut down. This is where being based in China comes into play as the Chinese government doesn't enforce copyright infringement and intellectual property laws or if they do, it's only to allow them to be shut down and reopened under a different name for the process to start again. This is why you'll never see these frames bring brought into any of the developed economic countries in any formal sense. Never will there be a dealer network inside the EU or North America, never will these copied design frames be readily available except through sites located outside the countries with copyright law and will be sent in as one off purchases. Because once they establish any kind of entity inside - they'll get shut down as soon as Pinarello, Giant, Specialized or whatever finds them. As not only do they steal the designs, they label it as if it was the real thing. It's called counterfeiting and China is the mecca of it.
That being said, I'm not adverse to them trying to break into the industry with their own designs based upon the techniques seen in released bikes. But do it with your own branding and develop your own name. Sites like Nashbar have bought some of these generic Chinese carbon fiber frames and slapped their name sake on them and that's all well and good. If these factories can just mimic what they see in bike designs incorporate it into a mold and produce it with a massive profit due to near zero R&D by all means do it. As long as they can guarantee safety through thorough testing of each component (which I assume Nashbar and other sites would demand) then all is well and good.
The issue is with those factories that have found the margin they can make on copied bikes is appealing and thus they'll continue to copy and sell until the market (those who buy them) doesn't allow them to do so anymore. The biggest thing, as you pointed out with your scooter forks, is safety. There are minimal safety checks on these bikes as the production volumes are already quite low - there's no margin to pull one frame out of 100 and do a high stress to destruction test - if they even have a device that can give a quantitative number. Or if even every part produced is quality tested before leaving the factory or if it's only one out of ten. I'd doubt they do even half the quality checks Giant does or if they do them it at all on every piece made. You just don't know how 'safe' these frames are until you test it yourself. Liang Qiao tries to state that these frames use lower level carbon thus you don't see them failing which is complete BS. Check youtube, check any cycling site, it's harder to find but there is still reports of these failing - these frames fail too except they're sold in MUCH MUCH lower quantity so there are less failure stories compared to the big 4. Liang Qiao even says carbon is fragile in another post, so how can't there be a failure story?? It's quite naive to believe there's been zero failures. But if you don't mind being the test mule like your scooter forks by all means you can pick up one of these no name (or names that haven't been around long) frames for your own personal testing. I for one think having a frame/fork fail on me during a 40 mph turn would be a horrid thing and paying extra for a bike that I know has been tested is worth it. That being said, these copy cat frames aren't much cheaper than the 'cheap' low level carbon any of the big 4 offers. So the only reason to really go with these frames is looks. You can get a (just using Giant for reference) a TCR composite for less than $1800 and it will probably ride better than any of these copycat bikes. So why buy it? Looks. Wanting something that looks like a Pinarello Dogma - it's that simple. As it's only marginally or no cheaper than just buying a low level carbon bike from a reputable dealer in your area and getting it built up.
The bottom line is safety should be paramount for an activity where you're essentially unprotected and moving at high speeds. You can't be sure it's even somewhat assured by thorough testing when buying the Chinese knock off. Liang's advice is, "you should not choose the cheapest in the market." Great! That makes me feel safe! Considering this whole market segment is the cheapest in the market... But not only that, buying the full counterfeit like Liang Qiao's 'Pinarello' (or just buying from a company which offers that) essentially says a little money and looks trump ethics and safety as you not only are going to ride that bike, you're also supporting that company and their business model.
Hi
Thanks for a great video. Last year I bough a top of the line carbon bike from Canyon. Loved the feel of it until the seat tube got cracks around the seat clamp. Happened to the replacement bike as well. I used a calibrated (with certificate) torque wrench to apply correct torque and still they cracked after a few hours of riding.
Got a Cervelo for this year so I will see how it performs. I didnt try the chinese "brands" since I didnt see them available here in Europe.
Anyway it was interesting to hear your experiences :-)
Tearstank soo even GRAND names in the industry like Canyon makes bad frames, so this thing with buying chinese frames is a good thing.... quality is just a random chance
gaby161290 ... Quality isn't random nor is quality about making a 100% reliable product. If you don't understand those two points you're pretty hopeless.
Agree, the cracks didnt have with production quality to do (I think). I think it was a faulty design from the start. The new version of the same frame is redesigned at this area and I think that has to do with all the returns they got!! Canyon simply made a design mistake with the Ultimate CF frame up until middle of 2015.
Tearstank so... getting a bike for 5000 $ and it has cracks and the design is faulty.... nice R&D top quality there, money well spent I must say.... you could buy a motorcycle that has a motor and moving parts that have to stand forces that no bike can comprehend. or a crappy second hand car... but no... you can buy a state of the art original cracking frame.... nice. please tell me how flawless are these original frames and how full of errors are the "fake" ones?
gaby161290 You're an idiot. You really don't understand how much it costs to make a 100% reliable product. No company in their right mind (nor would you as a rider since it would be a LOT heavier) would design their product to be 100% reliable. What he described was a weakness of the design, but you know what? He's got a warranty to deal with that, your counterfeits don't have crap.
I wouldn't have any issue buying one of these if they could assure me that some kind of performance testing results came with them. My big worry is the frame failing.
which website can i buy the china carbon frame?
voon yau kok dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
Some top brands do ODM business with Taiwanese manufacturers as well. That means, in some cases, the big guys, for example, ask their suppliers in Taiwan to come up with 2 or 3 new designs for them to choose from. If they choose, say, Model B, then they will pay for the design fee for B and issue order for production. So, what about Model A? No, if the big guys don't pay for it, they don't own the copyright, and the ODM supplier retains the copyright. Model A in most cases is no less competitive than Model B, and it's only a matter of the big buy's subjective preference that reflects their "bets" on next season's market trend. The equally good (more or less) Model A is then adopted by the supplier's own brand or a third party. A few months later, Model A appears on local market with a somewhat friendlier (but still sickeningly steep) price tag. These are the legitimate "good stuff", not at all knock-offs or copies.
Hi there,
Could you link the seller of the bike please?
he makes a great point about the stiffness of the t1000 versus t700 carbon and is also echoed in the comments below. They use more t7 and 800 to compensate for the expensive t1000 but you don't want too much of the higher end t1000. This also may be where some of the art vs science of the original creators comes through when balancing weight versus comfort. In other words, the chinese/asian made bike may weigh more AND not ride as nicely as the real McCoy. The difference is several thousand US$
where can i buy these copies?
Tate K dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
can you suggest for me where and the seller's name? i want to order too
Thanx for this video liang qiao. You have a balanced approach,firm reasoning and give due honor to the original companies who develop the technologies. Time will really tell as more and more riders are putting bikes and frames to the test in their lives. So like all products,the proof will be in the pudding....not in hearsay. cheers :)
Is this from dh gate.com and what is sellers name I am thinking of getting a frame from there or a fully built up bike what would you suggest.
Where can I buy one, I have trouble receiving my item by mail, you can pay by receipt of the item.
And what is the price of a bike I'm 185 cm tall and weighs approx. 90 kg
So what do you suggest. To buy a copied road bike or not to buy . I want to buy a copied road bike . but i a confuses the copied road bike quality is good or not.
Would love to hear part 2! Please upload it if you can.
Completely agree to just buy a carbon frame without any branding on the original brand.
There's a number of companies in China that are producing their own carbon framesets. Not copies and beautiful geometries. Lots of options out there.
I wonder how many commenters hating on copied framesets have ever watched or downloaded a moving online.
I have a chinese frame with chinese parts(handlebar, saddle), chinese Wheels, with Shimano Ultegra R8000(not counterfeited)... Well, and I have to tell you one thing... I don’t have any problem with what I bought, granted I didn’t go for the 200€ frame... my frame is a 2018 Costelo Speedmachine 3.0 Ultra Light, SM-03(color) size 49 for 452,71€, I absolutely love it!!! My handlebars are TOSEEK Integrated handlebar and stem, 400mmx100mm for 52,81€, TOSEEK carbon saddle 270mmx135mm for 24,92€, TOSEEK carbon bottle cages for 20,24€(pair) and CSC 38mm Clincher(25mm width) Sapim CX Ray spokes, and powerway R36 ceramic hubs for 475,89€ and full Shimano Ultegra R8000 for 500€ new(a deal from a club member) I AM a big supporter of “chinese” carbon parts... not counterfeit... but branded ones, Costelo sponsors two teams! Send them a message and they’ll be very open, send pics and they even have a brazillien team website... TOSEEK I just took the risk, not too cheap and not to expensive, after the first order(handlebars) I ordered my other parts... and CSC they sound like they know what they’re doing, they have a official website(ChinaSpeedCycles) and are very supportive and honest, and that kinda bought me into it, I’m currently looking to buy a rear disk wheel and a 60mm front wheel from them, for TT’s... My advice... Don’t go for the absolute cheapest! Contact the seller and see what they have to offer... compare sellers! Some seller I messaged gave me a 50€ discount just from talking to them... That threw me off of buying their products... I am very happy with all my products... The company where I bought the wheels, was honest and told me I probably need to true the wheels in a bike shop, because they only assemble the wheel, so it can keep itself attached... I went to a local bikeshop, they did it for free(very good friend of mine)... 6 months after that no problems!
I should probably say that I am a very very light rider... I’m 56kg, 1,71m just so you can take a wild guess to what size you should get... they all have a geometry chart in their products details so give them a read! Peace
Great video explaining the reality of the ocean we do business in. And I stress reality because most companies don't get it. They complain when someone inovates a process or a product and yet they want to capitalize on those same things as a company using this business model, then they are left frustrated and scratching their head when someone copies them or inovates around their big price tag. What they need to do is lean to work with the world that they find themselves in instead of stomping up and down like a teenager saying all of the market share I'm loosing should just pay my high price because of who I am. When companies stop working against the current of change in the market of innovation, then they will actually increase their profits, if not they will die a slow death like a company should that just relies on loyalty to make profits.
i never see myself purchasing a pinarello. with that being said how am I cutting or making that particular company loose money?
The only difference is the strength as you said, also the stiffness if a factor. I have one and it's not that stiff it flexes a little bit. That's how you can tell
you guys if you buy a frame are you supposed to build the bike yourself or are you supposed to have a shop do it for you?
ask the shop, building a bike is not easy especially with fine tuning (essential), if you are not experienced, you can mess it up.
how much will they charge you? do you also have to have them pick out small parts? it seems like that wouldnt be cost effective vs. buying a name brand
liang qiao
id be fucking afraid to start buying parts like the frame since i wouldnt know how much it would end up costing
juanjeremy2012 I live in Belgium, bike shops are pro, they charge me 150-200EUR/bike (including bolts, caps, small parts). If you choose electric groupset it will be very expensive. It really depends on where you live, in China is 50EUR, but I doubt the quality.
Build it yourself, mate. There's nothing like your relationship with your own bike when you build it with your own hands :-). Bicycles are not complicated machines. And I find myself disappointed often with build qualifies from LBS.
The BIG problem with the copies is that without the original hard work and investment of the developers, the copy makers would not have anything good to offer. So, basically is stealing intellectual property and making money with someones else's talent.
But this always tends to fade away in people's minds. In some others, it doesn't even occur to them, only the money they are saving...
Donde puedo conseguir una bicicleta así
So t800 carbon is best than t1000 carbon?
how much is the tax on one uk
where can i find these bike? ??
kuldeep patil dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
William Jian
lol
when does part 2 come out?
Hi Liang.How are the Carbon copy bikes holding up? Can you do another video review? People need to know.I'm thinking of getting a bike from China.Thanks!
I agree with you to say that the original brands are paying a lot for R&D, etc. what can explain a bit the final price, but disagree with the fact that the sponsoring also cost a lot for the brand. More you market your products, more you will sell them, so at the end the brand will amortize the cost of its sponsoring and making more money thanks to that.
Can u give me a site were can i buy a fake pinarello?
www.dengfubikes.com (these aren't pinarellos but they are still copies)
www.ebay.com/itm/New-UD-Full-Carbon-Fiber-700C-Road-Bike-Frame-Fork-Headset-56-58cm-BSA-/281470224870?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4188eec9e6 (ebay; this one is a pinarello copy without any pinarello branding)
Thx bro !!!
I seriously doubt an 'average' rider can't feel the difference between a Pinarello and a copy. A carbon frame is not just an empty shell of carbon and the thickness of carbon varies A LOT from part to part. And only the actual team that designed the shape with a CAD can define this thickness
This video provided healthy information, I like the honesty and descriptions..I'd like to know the exact website you made the purchase from and what's the weight of the bikes please. Thank you.
I would like to say that the molds of the frames are generic molds, that is also a reason why the Chinese carbon frames are so cheap. Big brands that produce bikes usually design there own frames, which requires time, money and effort
To the guys who were swearing down there, buying whats affordable for ourselves is an individual decision, be it real (over priced) or copied/fake/china make (alot cheaper for general public). It doesnt matter if you guys argue about whether the original make has higher quality or more durable or perform better, there are real cases and cyclists who use OEM products and still last longer than those who have paid for fancy brands. Some of you guys are just against China as a country and its reputation but come on, 90% of the electronics that you guys are touching and using are all from China, inculding America's pride, Apple. Theres no right and wrong in buying from which manufacturer, some of us just wouldnt or couldnt spend that much on the brand name. All you guys up there fighting and swearing each other are just picking on his sentences and act like children. Why not the guys who were so confident down there, go out there buy both the 12k Dogma F10 and the OEM one, test both out and tell us the actual difference and why theres a need for you to critisize on Chinese products. For those who literally hate Chinese products why not stop using your laptop, TV, Fridge and Handphones then, if our western society is that capable and independent why are YOU still using and living with Chinese products? Dont be so narrow minded and talk like an asshole on the internet.
thanks man really cleared a lot of things up for people!
Why do you think they are cheaper? Ride down a mountain at top speed and when the fork cracks and you land in the emergency room you will understand. To buy copies like that with company logo is pure theft.
buying counterfeit goods is illegal in Australia, period. I have no issues buy Chinese brands as long as they don't rip off intellectual property from other companies and have proper quality control procedures. For those that supports the trades of counterfeit products are no different to a thief that have no moral judgements.
it would be good to see heavier carbon hybrid frames availible with rack mounts 2.8kg frame weight with thicker carbon layers for riders who want a carbon frame with more weight to it for stability on bumpy roads.
When you buy a Chinese Copy , its like buying Generic Prescription Medicine , or no name brands In America. You purchase items like this every day sometimes without realizing it. Even your name brand products use generic materials in them.
Sorry to bust Your Bubble.
I don't know about that.. When you buy a generic drug, it's regulated and has quality control standards that tell you you're getting what you paid for. Carbon frame copies don't necessarily have the same quality. I've seen frames where the seat tube is too tight to move your post up/down, where the headset fits loosely, etc. The manufacturer takes them back on warranty, but you have to pay shipping back to China to return the frame, which means a couple hundred bucks.. That said, there still are great copies out there.
You got a point I’m glad I got the t800 it’s a little heavier but stronger
bro is your wheelset from china as well?
yes, they r
liang qiao how many years have you been using the campag wheels bro? can you send me the seller name pls? thanks. im planning to buy a time frame and campag wheels. cheers
lastly, did you get it from aliexpress or ebay? :) :)
ned stark over 3 years. from aliexpress sth called milan from Guangzhou.
Very very awesome Mr Liang Qiao.
I worked for a major bike player that had its own house brand. Our Carbon frame and the Look came from the same factory in the Orient, and had the same modulus. There are but a handful of mfg's making everyone's stuff. Here's a little inside baseball. The ChiCom's cheat, meaning name brand bikes need to be pulled from a production line and cut up and inspected, because name brand tube set steel bikes when chopped up revealed seamed tubes. I would suspect the same in the world if carbon.
Does anyone know where he purchased these from
go to aliexpress or ebay, if a seller/shop has high reputation and much sales you are quite safe.
Thank you buddy
:) I already bought a pair of 50 mm Deep carbon rims from aliexpress the shop was perfect and did all the details i needed.
Probably at affordablecyclingsports com and I'm pretty sure it's made in Shenzhen, China. Basically a 6K bike for a little less than half.
where can i buy one
DatProPubstomper dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
William Jian no i dont really want one since that i have a bike already but do you sell carbon parts?
yes, frame, wheelset, handlebar, saddle, bottle and complete bike etc..
It's a counterfeit, not a copy, and it's illegal for a reason.
When the counterfeiter sells the products the profit goes to them.
When the counterfeit product fails, the brand name damage goes to the original.
+Vlad IV RomanianKnightofChrist777 says:
"Can YOU afford an original??? If not, then SHUT UP"
==
I thought the whole purpose of buying the name brand is the bragging right(to show off your spending power).
I can be very happy with no name bicycle as long as it performs as it should.
What's the point of buying a no name brand bicycle with a famous name sticker on it cheap and later tell your friends that it's actually a fake?
Very honest video, thanks! I would try one of those carbon bikes, and totally understand about the high mod carbon being weaker and too stiff. I personally would not have a copy named one, but one with a different none name with a good build would be just fine... I hear the rims that come out are pretty good as well... So I think I'd be ok with trying one out. And agree, that they would be very rideable. The originals costs way more because of what you explained. But, yeah, just don't put the original name of brand, and use another name, any name...Great information!
Very intersting video. Thanks!
I am intrested in a good producer of carbon wheels from China...can u recommend me one ???? Thnks
Laurentiu Dorosin dear friend, what is the bike you want? you can contact to me, it is william from china, we are the carbon bike(wheel) factory in china, my email is cycling88895@hotmail.com
I personally using china made carbon roadbike as well. I would say I can't tell the difference of the quality of the bike compare to original! But I agree with you that we shouldn't buy those with international branding on the frame.
I really think these Asian Bike outfits should go with simple designed bikes with their own brands painted up or not, fine take inspiration from big company's for the design but come up with your own models. I do think its possible to come up with that. There is a market for that 900grams to 1000 grams Carbon frames for £250-£300.
Anthony Hall you must think that only the 'westerner' purchase these copied bikes. I believe there are other cyclist on this planet. I might be wrong.
With that said: You are correct. By purchasing these bikes the consumer does several things. 1) Promotes theft in so many areas. 2) Increases the cost to the honest consumer. 3) Has no reliable recourse when the fames folds on a big downhill. 4) There is no warranty and now you are out a bike and the new bike will cost you, double. How? Because you lost the money on the purchase of the first frame and now have to purchase a new frame. Yeah, I hate paying $3000 plus for my bike, but when I need the manufacturer, which is rare, I have them. Good luck.
I ordered To carbonbikeframe7 a ( pinarello F10 BB30 frame ). Immediately it was found that the bottom bracket was poorly factory. Indeed in its central part, it is not completely empty which does not allow to receive the different offers of the market. In addition it was poorly factory and is not symmetrical, which means that the pedal can not work properly and resistance BB30 bearings which has blocked the operation of the pedal with a strong resistance.
I have tried several times to get my money back without success by contesting to capital one credit card my transaction. The only solution that was offered with all the évidences of the manufacturing defect, was to return the frame to the seller by paying myself the transport. The cost of the operation a loss of 120 € for the transport and 54 € for the customs payed .