How Drunkards, Whores & 'The Immoral' Shaped the Nation (w/ Thaddeus Russell)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ม.ค. 2014
- Thaddeus Russell is the author of A Renegade History of the United States. He takes a brash, maybe even borderline blasphemous look at the American bourgeoisie and puritans of the past. How did weekends come to be, and how did the mafia, brothel madams, minorities, homosexuals, and others considered "deviant" by the ruling puritanical culture help shape the nation? And is it possible to criticize the suffrage movement and even Martin Luther King Jr.?! Cenk Uygur hashes it all out in this probing interview with Thaddeus Russell.
Follow Thaddeus on Twitter: / thaddeusrussell
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I like that despite their obvious disagreements, they manage to have a really interesting and civilized conversation.
Cenk and Thaddeus, you are better men that I. If some idiot called me a lying asshole, I'm afraid my first question would be if he had a good dentist. It is refreshing to see interviews and discussions where the participants don't yell and talk over each other, but express themselves clearly and openly. You two, obviously, didn't agree on all points, but you had the maturity to ask questions and request clarifications. I wonder if Bill O'Reilly and his bunch at Fox will ever learn that....Nah.
You went thru the trouble of writing a whole paragraph praising how men can have fundamentally different beliefs and be civil enough to calmly discuss them, yet effectively discredit yourself at the end by taking cheap, ad hominem shots at O'Reilly. Wonder if you'll ever listen to your own self...Nah.
zed end Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact or when used in certain kinds of moral and practical reasoning.
Are you trying to tell me that O'Reilly, Hannity, et al, listen to their interviewees' points of view calmly, then put forward their own views? The last thing I saw from O'Reilly was him talking over Naval War College professor Tom Nichols when Nichols told him his idea to raise a mercenary army to fight ISIS, and terrorism generally, was a bad idea, an idea by the way, which is outlawed by the UN Security Council.
Ed Tolliver - given the topics discussed in the video, you would be assuming O'Reilly or Hannity would act in a manner which support your preconceived notions of what Fox is to you. You do not know this, unless you were directly commenting on a Fox video, which you are not.
The last thing you saw from OReilly has zilch to do with Cenk and Thaddeus' discussion.
Ed Tolliver Further, you are sadly misguided if you are looking for facts and credibility from Fox or any other mainstream outlet for that matter (if you haven't heard what went down between Cenk and his former MSNBC bosses, Google it).
Fox is in the entertainment business, and outraged 25-50 yr old white liberal is what they butter their bread with. I'm shaking my damn head now - You're gettin played, son! Wake up!
zed end Your reasoning is incorrect. You said "yet effectively discredit yourself at the end by taking cheap, ad hominem shots at O'Reill". You also said, "given the topics discussed in the video, you would be assuming O'Reilly or Hannity would act in a manner which support your preconceived notions of what Fox is to you."
My notions of how O'Reilly and Hannity react to those who not agree with them is not based upon preconceived ideas, but direct observation over a period of time, in which both men consistently talked over and tried to brow beat those who did not agree with them. I particularly recall O'Reilly saying, "Cut him off, he's obviously and idiot" when a guest wouldn't back down from him.
My comment to Cenk was to praise his interviewing technique in which he gave his guest the opportunity to express himself, without interruption or abusive speech. My experience with watching O'Reilly and Hannity is that they consistencly talk over their guests and try to bully them. Therefore, I made my comment wondering if O'Reilly change his interviewing style.
I'm kind of a direct guy. If it looks like a duck; walks like a duck; and quacks like a duck; I conclude it's a duck and will not suddenly change into an eagle. O'Reilly has built his program on his abrasive style of interviewing. I conclude he will not change what has made him famous -- or infamous -- depending on your point of view.
Cenk, Thaddeus and Oliver Stone all seem to be in agreement. They agree the biggest problem is corporate control of government force. They agree there should be a global reduction in government sponsored violence. They agree labor unions play a critical role in balancing society.
An interesting note regarding the hypothesis on sex and managing a democratic system: our most sexual founding father, Benjamin Franklin, made lots of major contributions, but he never held administrative office... although he was postmaster for a year, but that was more about establishing the system as opposed to managing it.
I think you downplay Thaddeus' libertarian position.
Wow, that was an eye opener to American History. It's good to see that people are researching and writing about history from more than one perspective.
One of the best interviews I have seen. Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much for this interview, couldn't close the window till it was done.
Excellent work.
one of the best interviews! thanks! great work, keep it up!
Great topic. Definitely not the history that's advertised but is interesting how these events shaped us. Will be reading more about this.
Asking, as minorities, for majorities' "tolerance" or "acceptance" is perverse; it masochistically plays into the majorities' self-concept. The REAL question should be, "Who the hell do you think you [majorities of various kinds] are to condescend to us [minorities of various kinds] by thinking you can 'grant' or 'deny' us rights? How about we deny you peace of mind via increasingly extreme and unexpected acts of dissidence until you get the hell off your high horses and let us live as we choose to? "Ask for work. If they don't give you work, ask for bread, then take bread." - Emma Goldman
Actually, it's quite the norm! Did you actually, LISTEN to Russell?
Who is "the rest of US?" And where do you get the ingredients and ability to pay for YOUR bread?
The minorities get where they are thank to the mercy from US goverment. It is laughable to think they have the right to demand anything. White ppls can kick you out if they want to
awesome conversation guys !
That was very informative, thanks for presenting this.
I bought the book a while ago, now I need to find time to actually sit down and read the darn thing! Great interview!
interesting conversation, I'll have to read the book. Like the native American history that was ignored and manipulated until the 1970s there seems to be a lot that has happened I was never informed of or lied to about in school.
MrSnickster That's because school is not meant to educate you. It is meant to mold you into good little workers who don't dare to complain.
MrSnickster this is bs revisionist history. SO many sodomite bars in the 30's all getting snapped up by the Mafia eh? Rubbish.
This to me was a great conversation.
I highly recommend to ANYONE the books that Noam Chomsky has written and that are out there. They are written so that the lay person can understand and they are generally short reads. Just go online and order some of his books, trust me they are eye openers and so educational.
Spectacularly Amazing Interview !
Raw American history and democratic capitalism values that, for better or worse, keep forcing the progression of a young country. The Obama quote was quite an eye opener and spot on. We can never let the oligarchy/corporations control the enforcement of laws.
Loved watching Cenk befuddled, time after time, b/c I know he'll walk away an even wiser person than he already is.
Thank you TYT, that was fair and balanced journalism, at it's finest :)
Clearly brilliant interview. Amazing guest.
I like that this show Chenk's line.
A very interesting conversation for sure.
Very enjoyable conversation!!
very educational and insightful discussion! Thanks for sharing
Awesome interview
Great interview!
47:46 Are there any links on this about King?
Okay. THAT was AWESOME!!!! I'm a new fan of Mr. Russell.
I think a Thaddeus Russell v Stefan Molyneux debate on 'Freedom, Morality/Virtue & Happiness' would be fascinating. I am personally very torn and that debate may help in my gaining clarity and consistency with these things.
Thanks for an interesting, norm-challenging interview.
A fascinating conversation...
Fascinating!
very informative, great interview.
Fabulous interview.
It's about time My people got some recognition..
i would like a new continued interview. did they not want more renegade violence because than the people would stop living in fear and start dawning and acting on an unconditional loving perspective.
i am spiritual and believe spirit is magnetized to become infinite, eternal, and unconditional love and flow through us through the path of least resistance.
hearing Thaddeus for the first time in this interview has opened me up to the avenue of using violence and breaking the law to defend and create. i like to believe that in no situation is violence a good way to birth or dawn into more of yourself, to lessen boundaries and become free'er. i am wondering if their is other ways to take back our power we have given away.
i think violence is the only thing the people willing and not afraid enough are smart enough to know how to do to expand freedom. i am wondering if their is gonna be a higher form of change than violence, one that isn't violent and wont be able to be delayed and anymore with violence.
i think it is emergent when we realize we have the power within us and are not afraid to, i think it could take the form of uniting with our communities without disbelief, and from what i am aware of of creating community vertical farms, solar and wind power, ego free housing, local and regional electric public pedestrian and freight transportation, a culminating gravitating waste free sustainable ecosystem aligned culture and personal values, reconnected, dawned, re-remembered, enjoyed, and celebrated.
+horizon It wasn't the "loving" people who changed things. It was greed.
great conversation. I "couldn't not" pay attention. learned a lot. thanks to the awesome guest thadeaos and ofcourse tyt and cenk.
I love 1st person history. That's where you get some of this history. There are a few books of general history that covers that stuff.
"Structures of Everyday Life", about Middle Ages to the Renaissance, is one. A little dry, but mostly interesting.
I named my son Thaddeus. Thaddeus Alexander. I pick that combination for its strength and greatness.
I have always said in discussion's about the civil rights movement, it was just as important to have as allies those who believed in violent action as a means of liberation, as it was to be surrounded by those committed to nonviolent protests. Malcolm, and Huey, and Bobby, and H Rap, were just as important and necessary as Martin, and Jessie, Ralph, and Bayard and all those others who stood with MLK. The threat of violent uprisings across the country gave MLK a stronger position to bargain from. This country has always understood violence and grudgingly respects those who fight violence with violence. That part of history we should never shy away from.
great interview
now thats what i call a good conversation.
Thaddeus Russell, a very smart man, is guilty of using the Antipodean Questioning Intonation--also known as the High Rise Terminal or up talking--which is the term used to describe the modern tendency among some people to turn spoken sentences up at the end (or even in the middle, as Russell does) in the Australian fashion, as though asking for approval or reassurance. Notable examples: Terry Gross, host of Fresh Air, Glenn Greenwald, journalist, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, cosmologist.
This is really interesting stuff. I never liked the way history was taught during my childhood i.e. "this old, magnanimous, Christian white guy with no faults did this and this so now we have this". The truth is the forces at work in our society are enormously complex and seem to involve a a constant theme of expression finding it's way around or through suppression. It's interesting to see how in older, non-christian societies the thinking can be quite different from what is considered moral or correct in conservative American thinking.
Good interview
amazing!
The most thought-provoking TYT interview so far!
That’s not a strong statement lol
is he the founder of Russell Athletic?
The mafia also used to blackmail gay clients of these bars. Judges police and politicians who were in the closet and had to stay that way
You need to regulation to protect the people from the rich combined with getting rid of regulation that protects the rich from the people. If you get rid of the state you get feudalism which is worse than statism in many ways.
AI fan We have had #mercantilism since Queen Elizabeth I, with doses of socialism. Capitalism requires capital, which is hard to get outside of a Homestead Act. 💱
This is civil. Thanks
Amazing thanks
Garbage wouldn't be picked up...yes because private companies can't process garbage..
You can process organic garbage into oil, they did a bit of it in the U.S. around, I think, 2006ish, but had to stop because the people providing the turkey waste started charging for their garbage and it stopped being cost efficient.
yes because they have an alternative: the state that provides it for them through taxation, if you take that out of the equation, you'll have a different dynamic
I would love to see Thaddeus on the Rubin Report or Lowder with Crowder.
Thad seems to have no trouble identifying the problem, but seems pretty weak at coming up with sensible solutions.
BB Christopher So you're in favor of everyone being able to use violence to further their own ends at will?
BB Christopher Sigh. A private police force would not work, and has not worked. You don't have a real alternative to government controlled policing.
BB Christopher Some false equivocations, but one was apt
"If I can't get a job, I guess I have no alternative but to steal?"
If you cannot get money, you cannot buy food, if you cannot get food, you die. So yes, if you can't get money and thus food, you will try to steal it, or you will die. If the choice is steal or die, you'll steal, sorry.
Now, on to policing, if there isn't any, violence and theft will increase tremendously. Rioting and looting ensue. So if you don't have an alternative, I'm leaving the current system in place
BB Christopher I think you need to sit down and really consider what is and is not moral.
Lets say you have a family, and you've lost your job, say to a depression or merger, and you can't find a new one, your family is starving.
Is it more moral to allow your family and yourself to starve and die or to steal staple foods from a grocer?
Additionally, Stealing is not like Pedophilia, false equivocation.
How can I trust you to "base our society around moral behavior" when I don't think you know what that is, or at the very least we have severe differences of opinion on what is and is not moral.
BB Christopher BB Christopher Lets actually look at these shall we?
"The trend has raised concerns in Virginia and elsewhere, because these armed officers often receive a small fraction of the training and oversight of their municipal counterparts. Arrests of private police officers and incidents involving SCOPs overstepping their authority have also raised concerns."
"In 2009, a SCOP who owned a private security firm got into a heated argument with a woman over parking at a Newport News-area shopping center, according to court records.
Kevin Bukowski hemmed in the woman’s vehicle, and then he and a partner pointed their guns directly at the woman and a friend as they sat in their car with two children, court records show. Bukowski was convicted of abduction, and the state revoked his SCOP registration in 2012."
"While the numbers have increased, training has not kept pace. A 2012 study from a University of Illinois College of Law assistant professor found that private police are “chronically undertrained” and nearly a third nationwide face almost no regulation."
"States other than Virginia have faced issues as well. In 2012, more than 20 residents of the Cherry Hill neighborhood of Baltimore filed a $25 million lawsuit against a Cleveland security company, claiming its guards had abused residents and violated their civil rights by stopping them illegally and making false arrests. Two of the three guards named in the suit were “special police,” a designation similar to SCOPs in Virginia.
In 2005, a special police officer tasked with guarding government buildings in D.C. was convicted of a felony after carrying out an armed robbery in Georgetown using the revolver issued by his security company."
That is hardly "nothing negative" as you claim, did you even read your the articles you posted?
If there wasn't a public system to fall back on, what exactly would our recourse be for all these cases (in your own article) where private police abused the citizens?
Amazing talk
Reminds me of both Steinbeck and Dickens... More history of this kind, please :)
its much more fun to listen to this guy now
Great conversation. Shows you how much a centrist liberal like Cenk is to being Libertarian. I'd love to see a debate between Russell and somebody truly on the left.
Don't play the morality game because if you do we, the workers, will lose.
Perfectly said
Your comment is so popular.You have the best morals of course.
So how will people feed their families without jobs lol.
+ shelby edgar Ouch. You hit me where it really hurts, on youtube comment section up-votes. I'm triggered and you're officially a cyber bully. Where in my comment did I mention having a job or feeding ones family? Your youtube channel is just like you, "no content."
P.S. I am your moral superior and you need to get back to bagging my groceries, or parking my car, or whatever useless "job" you do.
john smith ok dokey!! Can see that you are just another person 2 far up their own arse that you actually begin to sprout absolute shit but ok have a nice life.
I'd like to refer Mr. Russell to present day Haiti, and I would be interested to know if he would like to continue using it as an examplar of social change.
Anyone else see a parallel to modern internet users, freedom of information, (ie the drunks) vs the government (the puritans).
This guy is so patronizing and in love with his own ideas that it's a little insufferable to watch him respond to Cenk's questions and counter arguments because he isn't really listening. He conflates historical facts with simplistic psychological fictions about people's motives and desires (ie, reducing someone who drinks to being a "drunkard" and a "slacker" -- just because someone desires drinking doesn't mean they can't also desire productivity, and the same goes for sex). Russell makes these dubious assumptions over and over again just to suit the ends of his own pet theories, and it really spoils the very interesting things he's talking about. The worst part is when he tells Cenk "Freud said this too, many people have said it, not just me." Um, and that proves his point how? Still, a fascinating interview as always. Just wished he was more open-minded to considering the positions Cenk took.
I don't think you truly understand his point. I think, he was just saying that there are many ways to archie your end result. All ways help to get the out come, not just the correct way. It's like saying the end outcome justified the means, but he saying that you have to allow the people to regulate the out come. Etc. If someone makes something fine that's ok. If the people keep buying it then the people now judge it useful enough to stay around till they dem it unuseful. If you take advantage and miss use the people then your out come would be what you make of it. You made your bed now sleep in it.
acworks77 I understood his point. I don't think he provided enough solid support to that point, however.
You mean he acts like Cenk usually does when he talks to anyone with different religious of political views.
I think he definitely meant to use those terms in the context we've been given them by the "puritans" of democracy. Obviously no one fits neatly into a label, but a lot of these people in the nineteenth century that he refers to were quite literally drunkards whores and criminals. Even the mob had an important part to play in creating the world we are now comfortable with.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. As I’ve said on other posts. If my child was in his class at college I’d be concerned. The content of his ideas are dubious and ridiculous. However, the way he thinks, his methods of thinking, are equally as poor. He won’t last more than 6 months as a TH-cam personality. There is simple not enough substantive material behind his thinking. A true hack if there ever was one...,
This is amazing. Goes to show that people with differing opinions can have a reasonable exchanging of views. I personally feel like the problem with conservatives and liberals debating today is ignorance and disrespect (on both sides) and it just dissolves into “I’m not listening because I think you’re wrong”. I really respect the idea of discussion and an exchanging of ideas. We can agree to disagree, you don’t have to be a dick.
Martin Luther King was fond of the drink and women outside his marriage. One of his mistresses, Hampton Sides, who claimed to spend the evening with the good doctor before his death, wrote "King was a human being: flawed, vulnerable, uncertain about the future, subject to appetites and buffeted by the extraordinary stresses of his position. His civil rights cause was holy, but he was a sinner."
Jackie Kennedy, with access to the J Hoover tapes, went so far as to regard Dr. King as a 'moral monster who goes as far as to arrange orgies in Washington hotels,' for what its worth.
There is nothing wrong with this behavior and has it no impact on his message and works, but people tend to paint these idols in history as asexual/monogamous kitsch saints, not red blooded human beings.
I like this dude, he's good. But in the beginning he was not feeling the push back he was getting from Cenk, lol. He's a historian, he's used to just telling the tale and everyone being absolutely charmed. But he's good, I'm a fan.
That going into Iran for the oil thing sure worked out great, didn't it?
I think I would change the would "shameless" to stubbornness and perseverance, and perhaps commitment.
Interesting what mr. Russel has to say about worker morality being layed down to them by bourgeoisie. Reminds me a lot of Nietzsches idea's on 'slave morality' he does a good job at putting that into a contemporary context.
Whos this asshole neighbour of mine? This is been a really good interview. Really good. My pleasure. Thanku v much, I put u guys on my payroll. Brilliant.
Got the book, awesome read.
+Real Californian Thanks. I just bought it and like to know I didn't waste my $10.
Do you think it is suitable for High School age young adults to read?
This guy is fascinating.
So Thaddeus just co-signed what David Degraw said in his interview with Cenk, how the radicals and reformers work well together, by the radicals giving more space for the reformers to work with.. Another awesome TYT interview! Thanks..
If President Obama actually said that about government having a monopoly on violence. then he obviously read Max Weber in his essay Politics as a Vocation (1919).
There is a phenomenon in modern society, that may or not be an American philosophy, that allows for a certain level of "depotchery", for lack of a better word. To an extent it's even a propensity to break the law in minor ways. Good people are encouraged to, at some point in their lives, swim in a fountain, j-walk or skip school and enjoy life. This, even though discouraged by the letter of the law, is a well integrated part of human society.
Vallon Skyles ANARCHY
I agree with their point on the "violent renegades" being the deal-making force of social movements. I also believe the reason we've gone backwards so quickly in the past 20 years is due to the "war on drugs"'s imprisonment of 700% more minorities than ever before. These prisoners could be the violent renegade force missing from today's movements against income inequality, Keystone XL, etc.
Were any of you surprised that there were no riots after Zimmerman's not guilty verdict like the ones that followed the Rodney King-cops' not guilty verdict?
Could it be that the rioters were already in jail?
'10, 12, 14 hr. work week -- was standard'? Boy, they must've had it easy! Or, did he mean to say something more like, '10, 12, 14 hr. work day -- was standard.' ? 😯❓❓😯
He taught at the school I go to, Eugene Lang.
54:36 He sounded like he was against the violence committed by the black people, when in the beginning he wanted to see the people dismantle the monopoly of violence that the government created for itself.
"mafia, brothel madams, minorities, homosexuals, and others considered deviant"
- your singing Cenk Uygur's favorite song !!!
40yrs of people voting for the Lesser of 2 Evils, and lowering the bar on the kinds of people we elect for the sake of Party.
I like Cenk when he interviews respectable people like Thaddeus, Kevin Kelly, Michael Wood etc. I usually have to compartmentalize on that because too much of his networks content seems to be moral outrage over what some right winger said. Like the equivalent of what Sean Hannity does on Fox News. But I'll give the guy props for interviews like these.
Wow!!! I'm not by any means a libertarian. I believe deeply in regulations for building, workers rights, financial etc. But this is the first guy I've ever seen argue for libertarian ideas, without sounding a complete idiot. Very interesting arguments!!
I read this book while in prison, it was an outstanding book. Although I don’t agree with all his views, the book was dope.
Checks and balances. Good thing we have cenk to balance this guy out
so wait, you can't drink on the weekend and be a good manager during the week?
48:10 Is he talking about MLK Jr., Malcolm X or Vernon Johns? Was he afraid that sex would lead to dancing? Was he Puritanical before or after his visit to Danbury, Connecticut? ✊💏🙏
I like this better that the regular TYT. I agree with TYT most of the time, but they don't seem to mind offending anyone that believes in a God. That's where their tolerance stops I guess. Good thing I'm tolerant ;) No wonder the republicans get most of the religious. Too Bad.
This is my kind of guy
I agree with the part about MLK and Malcolm X basically having been the good cop/bad cop of the Civil Rights Movement. It provides you with good leverage as a protest leader if you can point to a worse alternative than your civilized solution.
That's why capitalism went crazy with the decline and the fall of communism. Because now they felt they had no more enemy to fear and could just fight all moderate social policies, with there no longer being any danger of a socialist takeover any more if people became dissatisfied...
Interesting to see Cenk discussing ideas that he disagrees with in a reasonable and constructive manner. Ana K is not present. Is that just a coincidence?
Talking of weekend. The Greeks, they have a lot of words in their language but did you know they don't have a word for weekend. Lol.
They call it SaturdaySunday or SavatoKiriaki.
A little known thing. Lol.
Fantastic interview.
"Reason Magazine" ... if ONLY it was about 'reason'.
I don"t want to be called "hardworking". I don't want to be on anyone's "List '". It's MY CLUB, and you ain't in it....................
Power is money. Without money you cant control anything. So, government and corporation joined forces. And they become one.
37:13 "The system that is crushing the rest of us"... Yeah Cenk, you are part of the rest of us, lol
The only disappointing part of this video is that it ends on a Higalian argument.
Great stufff! Agree with Thad about a lot...& I’m a Christian! Lol! We need to be REAL!😁💃👍🏻
If you force companies to pay a minimun wage they can set a top wage for the same moral reasons, so workers stay away from the business of morality? Firts, by definition, nobody should stay away from the business of morality, second, companies can't put a maximun wage because of competition, if you want the best peoble you are gonna have to pay for them. The minimun must be set, because you have billons of people looking for that job.
It seems like no one understands, or at least talks about, the application of the biological rule of life filling in all the available niches, learning to adapt and make the most of less, or more, and how it applies to humans in society. It indicates a lot of important to understand points that have been made in this interview and many more not touched on.
Isn't saying "whores shaped the nation" kinda of redundant? I mean, we already know it was men who made our world look like this. No denying that definition 1 and 3 apply to the majority of them.
whored, whor·ing, whores
1. To associate or have sexual relations with prostitutes or a prostitute.
2. To accept payment in exchange for sexual relations.
3. To compromise one's principles for personal gain.
(freedictionary)
God his neck is so red. It looks like a bug bit his neck. Or maybe it's a sunburn.
Electronic Dance Music originated from The Underground and was blasted by the World media from 1989 to 1994...........
............and is Now completely Mainstream