Everything You Said Is Absolutely Correct. By the way I set Lash cold Yep to big a push rod and to heavy a valve, I thought we had a Ti Valve in it. 😮😁😁 Oh want to do some cams for me, I will call ya later.
I wiped a hyd roller lifter out on a gen 1 small block chevy 383 and put solid roller lifters on a hyd roller cam. Motor picked up power and rev'ed out another 1000 rpm over the hyd roller lifters. Yes it works
I guess it comes from engines where you had to be doing it periodically for normal wear. Some bike engines are like that still, not due to cam but due to seat and valve wear(it will get too tight eventually, direct valve actuating)
@@lassikinnunen yes. Different systems require different care… In the car world (specifically hot rod or high performance engines) it’s not like that, obviously. People immediately think, oh it’s loose, must be something backed off. Or, oh it’s tight, must be out of adjustment. Lol. If it’s either you have to confirm why. Look at the thread height above the adjuster nut is the first thing. Compare it to the rest, and see if they’re similar. If so you’ve got a problem! Everyone’s point is, valve lash is more of a tool than it is a service… Meaning it’s used to check operation, not to be changed for no reason.
Billy Godbold's book mentions this. In my 20's, I wasn't patient or mature enough to set up a valvetrain. Back then, I was dealing with dirt bikes in the desert, so your valve job tends to go away over time. Dust, lots of RPM. That's just how it goes. As a kid, my ego was super inflated. You, Steve Morris, and Eric Weingartner are doing a major service to the hot rod community. You folks are that prime age of person who does this stuff enough to set it up properly and that helps people decide how to pick their battles or stay in their lane. My lane is stock bottom end, solid roller, and a manual trans. -- Thanks Y'all.
Just received my custom grind FE from you a week ago - looks great and I appreciate the time you took to talk with me. I need to get some lifters now, and I think it's worth another call. I hate to hear about your kids - I'll call next week, and we can sort lifters and springs out - maybe that will help them out. Thanks for all you do!
If I remember correctly, he didn't build the engine. So, he had to investigate the "package". And like always, he figured it out. Great comparison analysis, and theory of understanding. Cool vid.
Cool review on SM. Thanks for clarifying the solid on hydraulic cam profile. With the hydraulic profile being a "more gentle", the solid roller has no issue. Steve mentioned that The Lash was the big concern in the general population. He mentioned "tight" at 0.005 lash was what he does in such cases. You explained a lot that helped me understand valve train even better. Happy New Year everyone. Have a Great Day!
I love these videos where you go deep into the weeds! I understand it, but I'm not versed in a lot of it. You are filling that gap for me when you discuss the fine detail. And you do it well. Thanks for the great videos! Hope to see you and Steve do a joint venture in the future.
My friend built a 408 Windsor almost a year ago. The gentleman who did the machine work and assembly used a hydraulic roller big mutha thumper with solid roller lifters and he drives it to most every show in the area. Sounds and runs great. I didn't know you could do that but it works.
@@powellmachineinc You ever heard of the AI generated Compound Lever Valve Train System {CLVTS} for OHV engines? If so, your thoughts about it. www.google.com/search?q=compound+lever+valve+train+system+for+internal+combustion+engine&mstk=AUtExfBy8MSA3sMOZgHbMc52QTz9paxGfRThoPKShBoisbXl4r9DI2ohQAV0nn6dSwJ7HZY5R4FfYPL1s-ZlA6sv4_tbrXeX7DLKmMfMntwZYtzPzIqKcmn-ZlXBsHtKtKQ__WNeJ3T6WXzliq50cJP3M4xyLtOUC0mnXracfrHU7uir7GmxL8uOciRX0KaAEapfPnzesWdw6wXsUPKKS1tFPlrPX8BF5O03W5efN6yeVmR59a02FhN42VhxxRqo2Q6BSrHflfyXYay_sRed7Z1M4-aF&csuir=3
i was doing this 30 years ago with flat tappets in oval track engines. The tracks had a hyd cam rule that you had to run. You can also modify the lifter with a spacer to be a solid, which is what i do for the 602 and 604 engines.
I think the only thing bad to do would be roller lifters on a flat tappet cam. Good to know about the solid lifters on the hydraulic cam, I've got probably too much rocker weight and not enough spring, so will look at spacers before springs, as I want to protect that cam.
Steve "Stevie Wonder" Morris. I watch Steve. Steve's been doing this since highskrewl and is about 55 or so. He is a professional high dollar engine builder. I think he knows what he's doing most of the time. Glad you answered your viewers concerns.
Being a high dollar engine builder doesn't mean you actually know what you're doing. Look at everybodys favorite American burnout machine builder, NRE aka Nelson 'Racing' Engines. They build engines that easily eclipse $100k but you'd never seen one in a serious Drag Week car, for example. Or a serious anything, for that matter. You only ever see them in cars that sit at cars shows and do burnouts leaving parking lots. I mean, yea, Nelson obviously knows SOMETHING to put together the things he does. But I'd never put him in the same class at Steve, for example. Steve knows his s*it. I don't see Nelson in the same league.
@@J.C... First time I saw nelson put a cold engine on the dyno and do a full pull on that DEAD COLD engine, i wrote him off as a big talking showman! With the money his clients spend an even half-decent builder would get similar results... PLUS, every person I've ever known that swore like Nelson wasn't worth knowing.
Engine masters did an episode about this and had excellent results, Steve Brule wanted to do some longevity testing but was very good episode. Steve basically did zero lash , tightening the rockers till he could just barely turn the pushrods cold.
Been a few Circe track racers back in the day put solids on hyd. Flat tappet. It worked then but wouldn’t try it these days, cams were much better quality then.
Holding the valve closed. Oh no 😮 Awesome work. Thanks a ton, your hands on efficient approach, and real world experience, know how, and analysis helps us all to realize the how and why. Thanks.
I use to run solids on a hyd profile for years , but I decided to try a solid roller since like you said why run the hyd when you can get more out of a solid , so any this was in my 632 in a boat the hyd cam was 262/270@.050 on a 114+2 I installed it at 110 icl .631” then I switched to a solid roller 260/268@.050 on a 112+4 icl was 108 .697 “the difference in performance was incredible it accelerated much harder, turned the same propeller 400 rpm more and it idled much better , needles to say I haven’t ran a hyd in a big block for years , also for anyone that reads this , if you haven’t tried a cam from Powell you should I’m about too order my 3 rd cam from them since September
Good stuff. Years ago, I built a 496 bbc for a client that wanted a very low maintenance bracket car. Set the lash @.002 cold. Still runs great today. It's easy to monitor by checking the lash as you had mentioned.
Thanks for the clarification, I thought this would work fine by allowing the valvetrain to be more stable. I am glad to feel my instinct was correct. Love the videos, always more learning for me!
Been running a Bullet Hyd Roller with solid lifters and springs for around 500 passes in my bracket car. I backed off the lash till it lost mph in the 1/8th and settled in there at .018 lash. It’s not if it can be done, it does work and is really easy on the valve train.
@johnbean2596 The idea is that, as you add lash, you reduce overall duration. If the valve events are overly aggressive, more lash will continue to help torque and power output
Thanks for the vid.This has been around for years great you took it on for your subscribers. For the haters and non believers this wasn't even one of his builds. So if it went BOOM! he would been wanting to sell a lot of merch. I'll be a new subscriber. I like Steve open and sometimes I think he likes the hits.
Another great video! To me if i want something to rev its better to go solid vs trying to keep the hyd lifter happy.. that gets really tricky like you stated. Mass is always the enemy Andy
Great vid, I think a lot of this started with one of the big car mags back in the day saying that Hydraulic cams lacked clearance ramps. I was one of those who believed it for years until one day I took a dial indicator on a lifter and tried to show a guy in the shop how hydraulics did not have ramps and surprise surprise.. Really great of you explaining the usual variations in the ramps and the differences in acceleration between solid and hydraulic cams.
You are definitely the man brother. Love your videos, just awesome informative content that you explained in pretty dang layman terms. Great great job as always.
When the content creator (Powell Machine) is smarter than the internet 😏 the smile as the video began epic. I like they add emphasis as to how good they are by doing these videos sitting at the desk in their shop - with the business they own 👍
Seen your cam on the dyno in a 604 replica of sort with your cam , aluminum 200cc heads and a 85? Torque storm supercharger make 1000hp on a 010 block! You are a beast and someday hope to have a cam of yours in my sbc! Congratulations! 🎈
Combination, combination, combination. Agreed with what you state and thank you for getting in the weeds on the why. I am a little surprised the interwebz blew up but then again, I've lurked online email lists, forums etc.for a long time. So with that said, I am not that surprised some people flipped their lid. 20 years ago BBC guys were running solid roller lifters on hydraulic roller cams with tight lash, trying to get low maintenance higher rpm, with big valves. As with most things people had varying degrees of success. Solids on a hydraulic profile are not common now but better hydraulic performance lifters are out and lobe design has improved.
Great Video Daniel. I watched this a few weeks back. i Just want to say that even the Drag Guys that are checking Lash every pass are only doing it to see if they have a Lifter or Push Rod cup going away. If the lash changes you have a problem like you said. Tight and you probably hurt a valve. Loose you probably hurt a lifter or Push rod / Adjust Cup or a Rocker.
A well known engine shop in the Midwest recommended this on a build about 20 years ago. If you know what you are doing as a engine builder it can be done. I only deal with the best 👍
Intake valve bouncing off the seat upon valve closing while the piston is rising would create spikes in inlet manifold pressure in a supercharged (blown, turbo, centrifugal, etc) engine.
Ran solid lifters on my turbo car for well over a decade. Was a 354” stroker sbf. Ran 5.80s in the 1/8 and drove it on the street a lot. I would check lash every oil change which was maybe twice a year. During winter I would back the valves off since it would sit until spring. Never had an issue w it.
I built a sbc 383 back in the late 90’s. It has 230/244 comp hyd roller. It wouldn’t rev past 6200. Fell on it face. Most people said “because 383 doesn’t rev”. Yea, right. I put solid roller lifters on it, lash at .006 intake and .008 exhaust and omg. I was shifting off the rev limiter at 7800. It sounded so nasty (in a good way) revving that high. That was in my daily driven 3rd gen Camaro that ran 11.56 @121 in the late 90’s. Full weight car on 17” ROH snipers on 555r crappy drag radials with a 1.9-2.0 60ft
I`ve done just that, I dynoed the engine 12/26/23 my customer put it in his truck and its still running and never had the V/Covers off it, no noise at all, burn`t off 2 sets of rear tires, has had 2 oil changes and destroyed 2 transmissions runs in the street turns 7000rpm with the chip. It has solid roller springs and Jesel shaft mounts. I set the lash at "0" cold with enough preload so I could still turn the pushrod with a small amount of drag. When its hot theres no drag on the pushrod and I can`t feel or detect any lash. I believe the aluminum heads add about .004 inch to the lash so it loosens the preload. If youre intrested camspecs are 242/252 on a 110+4 with .615/.605....427cid sbc dart 9.325deck
Prominent Pontiac v8 builders from the early 2000’s ran tightly lashed Solid roller lifters on Hydraulic roller cams with great success. Ie Cliff Ruggles, Butler brothers and others.
I saw Steve's video when he put it out. It reminded me of a question I posed to My engine Guru back in the 90's. I wanted to run mechanical valve springs on a hydraulic cam. I was trying to build a racy early SBC out of the Dana engine parts catalogue (I worked at NAPA). He said it 'could work' but even with the Sealed Power high rev hydraulic lifters they just won't like that 100lb boost in spring pressure. I'm still running that combo in a steel crank '68 327 installed in my '86 K5 Blazer. It is way better than the 305 that came in it. Thank You for adding to this topic. Happy New Year!! Please keep the vids coming. ✌
I run a traditional Pontiac with a BULLET CAMS custom Hyd roller with LS firing order it’s quiet and very smooth on valve-train.Oh and I tight lash at .007 it works great!These setups are for drag and drive kinda deal for reliability…
I had a very respectable engine builder build me a 427 LS this year. Blower motor. For whatever reason he put a adjustable shaft mount rocker system on the heads he did for me. Floated the valves and wouldn’t rev past 5500 ended up having to switch heads. Sucks because they weren’t cheap. Was very surprised he didn’t know not to run the heavy rockers on a boosted LS unless you’re going full solid.
i just swapped in morel solid rollers on my ford 349 n/a with a trickflow 242/246 hydraulic roller cam, ilI did bump spring pressure up a little and switch to titanium retainers to also help valve control, 0 lash cold has worked fine for me with aluminum heads and iron block so far.
I’ve ran solid lifters on my hydraulic FE cam for 5 years, cast block and heads no problems, set the lash at the 4 thousands both intake and exhaust.like you said, never have any valve adjustments
Harley Davidson has hydraulic roller valve lifters since 1936. You could always and easily convert these solids. The pushrods are adjustable. They run great this way although a little noisier. Same cam.
I have run solid roller lifters on SBC step nose hydraulic roller cams numerous times. There is actually a drop in solid roller lifter for the stock SBC and LS lifter retention setups as well.
Been doing that trick for years, on the street in vintage engines with a hydraulic roller cam. With aluminum heads, I set the lash so tight, it's basically zero cold. You can use strong hyd. roller dual springs (or beehive) and have long life from lifters and springs, compared to a true mechanical roller profile with murder-strong springs. NO it's not as much power as a mechanical roller lobe profile, but there's not the bad dynamics of the heavy hyd. roller lifter and the aggravating noise and pump-up that is common with retro-roller hyd. units. A compromise, but it beats a flat tappet anymore!!
Apples to oranges here, but in the G3 hemi world , we have NO off the shelf Solid roller cams , I run a set of Hydraulic body lifters that have been rebuilt with an alum plug replacing the hyd plunger , I run .008 lash cold . have about 4 years on this combo, 25k miles , I check the lash every oil change , and call it a day.(Smith Bros pushrods.)
The last time I had my car out, I usually shift about 6,500.(10lbs of boost) This last run I ran it to 7,100 . It hit a peak of 21lbs of boost. Being a hydrologic cam, I assumed valve float. After watching Steve's video , I'm convinced that's my problem
I had a hydraulic flat tappet lifter fail and had to get to work on the next day. Put hydraulic roller lifters in that small block Chevy and then rebuilt it 2 weeks later. It's against the rules but it got me home. Don't do it. It will eventually screw stuff up but, I had no choice at the time. Y'all have a good one.
Interesting stuff for sure. I'm an old timer & remember hearing stories in early NASCAR of engine builders of the 1950's doing the "solid tappet/hydraulic cam" thing back then because everything in the motor was supposed to be STOCK (which it rarely ever was!) and the OHV Chevy's & Olds engines all had Hydraulic lifters from the factory at that time. Now i'm waiting for some nut to try a Hydraulic lifter with a Solid cam lol...!
To throw a wrench in, back when there where not many options in the mid 70's we ran Hydraulic lifters at .013 lash on the old GM 2nd Design Z28 Off Road camshafts on the street, to knock them down a bit ran pretty well for the day.
you know uncle tony's garage just had this exact topic but in reference to a purchase of parts. i think more people are fixing their cars and are becoming aware of the nuances of engine systems.
I have ran hydraulic cams in circle track competition. We run them at zero lash or actually a bit looser. If you don’t, the valves will remain off the seat when closed due to pump up. I would have a miss above 7,000 rpm if had ANY preload in the rocker arm. I turned it 7,400 rpm in the heats.
I've been running this setup since it came out on Engine Masters. It works great! The lash has never needed adjustment and it runs to 8k. It allows for lash loops in case you were off a few degrees on your cam selection. It's also just nice to know you are losing nothing from inconsistent hyd lifters. This is only street driven, roughly 5k miles so far.
We were fighting a hydraulic lifter collapsing on a street engine with a 0.540 lift. We changed several lifters without fixing the problem. We ended up putting solid lifters in and the lifter noise went away. We adjusted valve lash all the way from 0.012 to 0.006 hot. Afraid to go tighter. After about the 6th time of taking the BBC cast iron intake off, we noticed a little carbon chunks in the lifter Valley. Seems that the carbon/burnt oil had built up under the heat shield on the bottom of the intake. It would come out while the engine was running and plug up the lifter at high rpm. We did not build the engine. After dropping the oil pan to clean it out and drilling out the rivets on the heat shield of the intake, we ran a gallon of seafood through the engine like we were priming it with the lifters removed. We then flused the oil pan and reinstalled the hydraulic lifters. Problem solved. Sometimes testing needs to be done.
Awesome content. You added a sub. Im not sure what software you use since I've been out of it a while, but looks similar to the old Jones software. And I do believe Steve went in the wrong direction of allowing the customer to dictate the build instead of building to the use case. It's definitely float, as you described, and 100% should have been a solid application. The ramp rates alone would be better, let alone AUC and lift. Probably could take some boost out of it, be more reliable, and still hit the target power. Thanks for commenting. 👍
We have done this in an instance of a truck that needed the torque of a smaller cam which is hard to get in solid roller and a customer impatient to wait for a good set of retro hydraulics to come in stock, I should also add it was a big block Chevy and we will not install or warranty flat tappet cams. The customer is welcome to take it and install whatever cam they want but we we to our rules in order to not be to blame…. Point is the engine has something like 5 years and 70k on it with zero issues lash never moved when it came in 3 times to be checked at our auto repair side. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it as it can get complicated and be a cause for more confusion and constraints, other big thing is if someone who has no idea what they are doing fools with it they will screw it up really easily.
That said lets run a regular solid lifter used on a hydraulic lifter cam but not a roller type, same thing applies, you need to have room for oil to get in there. Old adage is that a little loose is better than too tight...
I have bushed LS hydraulic lifters so there's like .020 of hydraulic travel after preload is set. The .020 is lash so it's like a hydraulic solid hybrid. Super comp requires a hydraulic lifter so it passes tech requirements.
Thanks for the video, I think these Q&A / reaction videos are going to work out just fine. Boost is a measure of restriction, right? I had a procharged setup that would see a boost spike at high rpm. I assumed it was valve float. Springs losing control of the valves, and not allowing air to pass efficiently. I may be way off base. That was just my thought.
I bult a Ford 302 with boss pistons and 351C 4v heads and a Boss 302 intake. I orded a Comp Cams 280H hyd cam and solid lifters and they told me it was ok just set valves to .012 and .018. Ran incredible for 2 years and sold it.
I've been running solid lifters on hydraulic cams, on flat tappet and roller for 35 years without issue. I set my lash at .005-.006 and never look back... But you cannot run hydraulic lifters on solid cams.
I liked my Rhoads lifters. They bleed down at idle to tame idle and act as a solid at revs. It certainly did the job and gave another easy 500 rpm up top. But I always preferred the solid lifter cam setup but the valve train always took a hammering and noisy. Running zero cold lash with hyd lift solid cam must be quiet and easy on the valvetrain. I will certainly try.
@powellmachineinc I experimented with them quite a bit "back in the day." They did sometimes seem to slightly help with idle, vacuum, and perhaps a little low end torque. But they also consistently killed some top end power. (Add in some noise and fear of self destruction) As Daniel says physics. Though even Milliseconds become functionally shorter as crankspeed increases... My best success with high bleed rate lifters was an inefficient crutch for insufficient displacement combined with absurd cam profiles. It was fun, but a better matched combo is superior.
I commented on that video, saying that you had talked about this issue before and the fix is what he did. Powell and Morris were in agreement, not sure what weed people smoke while watching TH-cam..
I suffered thru a hyd roller on a blown motor application years ago. Boost working against valve springs is a problem. Valve area x boost "steals" spring pressure.
You are 100% correct about GM lifters now days, they are just not that good anymore, the lifters rollers always brindle away... I prefer Johnsons lifters when it comes to LS stuff. 👍
I think you answered it earlier. The hydraulic lifters Steve had in use were probably weak enough to allow the intake to be blown open and were holding the exhaust closed. It looks like there is a critical RPM where the lifters loose control and you can see it in his graphs. Great stuff Daniel, thanks for taking the time to educate us on the subject! Oh, and Steve needs to watch your channel too! Love his stuff but every so often you can see he doesn't know it all.
Steve builds engines for a very specific use, drag and drive and these engines are built entirely different from the typical performance engines. These engines need to make runs, while driving a 1,000 + miles and idle sometimes for hours while sitting in traffic. Tom Bailey went in the 5.99 after a week of racing and driving a 1,000+ miles on a Non max effort engine. He builds them to last and even though he did not build the engine in question this is what people go to him for. He has proven time and again, he builds engines, that power 4,200 lb cars that again run a 1,000 + miles and race 5 days in a row, and some for multiple events. He also only builds boosted engines.
Well, when we test the piston to valve clearance’s on high lift hydraulic cams, we use a pair of hydraulic lifters on one cylinder, with a layer of clay on the piston, and rotate the engine carefully more than 720° to make sure the cycle operated both valves 100%. no pump up required, and if there was enough clearance we installed the rest of the piston’s on the rods lubed the lobes and bottoms of the hydraulic lifters, pushem up tubes and rocker contact points ready for assembly, installed the actual heads I used a sawed off section of another head, with identical dimensions and valve-train components, I also used another section with a hogged out valve guide and a needle roller thrust bearing washer combination to fit an adjustable fly cutting tool set it at the minimum clearance over valve face diameter and with a collar on the stem set it to limit the cutting tool travel to match the minimum clearance bring each slug to tdc install with 4 bolts (snug) right after installing the pistons and rods, before trusting this jig I tested and weighed a full set to log the reduction in bob weight, and drill the throw weight holes accordingly but it worked out because the longer rods I used were a few (.01 - .03) heavier on the little end and I had only compensated for the wrist pin weight.) pushmatubes, and teeter-totters pre set the lash. and didn’t realize until after pre running the engine for the cam’s 10 minute break in, that I forgot to pull the solids out of #1, & stuck the hydraulic’s in the box of new solids as I fine tuned the valve lash. Luckily I ran a spare intake with a reusable gasket and coolant jacket bypass tubes for initial run in, I swapped the lifters & installed the new manifold and only had to adjust the last two valves. (30+ years ago.)
When the engine masters contest was still going, guys would run a hydraulic lifter with a solid profile for the years that a 'hydraulic roller' was allowed. They would set preload down 20 thou from the bottom and beat the piss out of the lifters. During tech teardown, its still a hydraulic lifter even if it is working like a solid.
Yup did one for road racing Ls T@D over 17years ago went to solid roller on a Hydraulic cam profile engine seen 7000+ many times it works just fine but I feel much the same just go solid for hill and hole and hill climb or any were I know were seeing +5000 most of the time solid roller 21:28
Oh yes that re lash all the time is a bunch of crap less valve train is bending or cam or lifter roller is going away there no need to lash but should be checked I ran solid roller on the street for 35 years with 600 lift to 800 for me many customers do not know how to lash lifters for them mild builds they get hydraulic roller cams have had over the years guys that didn't know how to set lash and suck valves and beat up cams
Boost is resistance. Thus, the spike was due to the valves not opening and failing to stay open thus causing back pressure on the system, indicating the boost spike you see on the big end of the RPM range. Also, the RPM you see the boost spike is the RPM the hydraulic lifter is failing to do its job.
@@powellmachineinc so are you suggesting that back pressure is also being created by the cylinder pressure that did not escape the chamber during the failed exhaust valve opening?
Customer dependent also if they only have so much to spend and want to use the parts they have sometimes you just have to come up with solutions to make it the best possible. I would bet a lot of shops would just do what people want and send it out and not even know there was a problem.
What about that cookie though? I think the Christmas cookie is the real controversy here. Why? Because not only did he not offer me a cookie but not even a nibble! That's BS man!
Why would think that's even necessary to say? I don't know anything about what's going to happen but here is my opinion on the entire topic. He might be agreeing. Or arguing. Or making good points either way but you don't know so why?
From what I understand what has happened is aggressive solids have made some people skittish about running any solid roller because the aggressive ones cause the valvetrain to self-delete, like in your previous video(s), so they go hyd roller and then run into pump up or bleed down, so this is the solution they have come up with. Seems to me people need more insight on the specs side of the cams they are buying, how aggressive the profile is. The acceleration and velocity numbers and some reference for what they mean would be a good start..
Engine Masters did an episode where they put solid lifers on a hydraulic cam. I don't know the episode and I can't get into my MT On Demand account to find it. I tried it on my engine by setting it at zero cold. But I never ran that for any length of time.
Everything You Said Is Absolutely Correct. By the way I set Lash cold
Yep to big a push rod and to heavy a valve, I thought we had a Ti Valve in it.
😮😁😁
Oh want to do some cams for me, I will call ya later.
Set hot, check cold note cold setting, set cold in the future
Also 💯 I was defending u!!, the internet is smarter than we are!! Luv ya
Definitely, shoot me a email and I will give u my personal cell#
Powellmachineinc@gmail.com
@@stevemorrisracing I was hoping so Steve. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
@@powellmachineinc personal cell🤔....man I'm jealous!😤
I wiped a hyd roller lifter out on a gen 1 small block chevy 383 and put solid roller lifters on a hyd roller cam. Motor picked up power and rev'ed out another 1000 rpm over the hyd roller lifters. Yes it works
I’ve been running solids on hydraulics for over 20 years. I mean all of this knowledge has been out there for a long time.
So much info has been rehashed over and over and over and over and over and over and over,,...,...
And then people pass it on as new.
I'm gonna run a set up like that on a street build easier on the valve train
Nobody says it hasn't been around, he was answering the Plebs on the Net which imo is a fruitless exercise as they are experts at everything.
I have as well just set it about .010 on a pretty reg lobe. I have been fast doin this as well.
Hydraulic cam is very close to a “tight lash” solid profile except less radical, and great for making solid rollers live on the street.
Exactly brother!!!
People always make the mistake of “adjusting” the lash.
You CHECK lash, if it “needs adjusted” you better be figuring out why!!!
@@frankensteincreations4740 facts
Having had more than one bad Volvo cam, you're absolutely right.
I guess it comes from engines where you had to be doing it periodically for normal wear. Some bike engines are like that still, not due to cam but due to seat and valve wear(it will get too tight eventually, direct valve actuating)
@@lassikinnunen yes. Different systems require different care… In the car world (specifically hot rod or high performance engines) it’s not like that, obviously.
People immediately think, oh it’s loose, must be something backed off. Or, oh it’s tight, must be out of adjustment. Lol.
If it’s either you have to confirm why.
Look at the thread height above the adjuster nut is the first thing. Compare it to the rest, and see if they’re similar. If so you’ve got a problem!
Everyone’s point is, valve lash is more of a tool than it is a service… Meaning it’s used to check operation, not to be changed for no reason.
Wouldn't it be similar to short travel lifters on a roller? I'm guessing that it almost becomes like a solid???
Billy Godbold's book mentions this.
In my 20's, I wasn't patient or mature enough to set up a valvetrain. Back then, I was dealing with dirt bikes in the desert, so your valve job tends to go away over time. Dust, lots of RPM. That's just how it goes. As a kid, my ego was super inflated.
You, Steve Morris, and Eric Weingartner are doing a major service to the hot rod community. You folks are that prime age of person who does this stuff enough to set it up properly and that helps people decide how to pick their battles or stay in their lane. My lane is stock bottom end, solid roller, and a manual trans.
-- Thanks Y'all.
thank you very much, comments like this is why I do this stuff!!
Just received my custom grind FE from you a week ago - looks great and I appreciate the time you took to talk with me. I need to get some lifters now, and I think it's worth another call. I hate to hear about your kids - I'll call next week, and we can sort lifters and springs out - maybe that will help them out.
Thanks for all you do!
Appreciate it! I'm sure we can figure something out together.
@Vivian64FE good ol FarmEq 😆 jk but not. You got some cylinder heads for that mochine?
If I remember correctly, he didn't build the engine. So, he had to investigate the "package". And like always, he figured it out.
Great comparison analysis, and theory of understanding. Cool vid.
Cool review on SM. Thanks for clarifying the solid on hydraulic cam profile. With the hydraulic profile being a "more gentle", the solid roller has no issue. Steve mentioned that The Lash was the big concern in the general population. He mentioned "tight" at 0.005 lash was what he does in such cases. You explained a lot that helped me understand valve train even better. Happy New Year everyone. Have a Great Day!
@@jeffhopper3526 glad to do it
I love these videos where you go deep into the weeds! I understand it, but I'm not versed in a lot of it. You are filling that gap for me when you discuss the fine detail. And you do it well. Thanks for the great videos! Hope to see you and Steve do a joint venture in the future.
@@SMOBY44 we appreciate the support 🙏
As always love your videos keep ‘em coming.
@@toddsculley2710 we appreciate that 🙏
My friend built a 408 Windsor almost a year ago. The gentleman who did the machine work and assembly used a hydraulic roller big mutha thumper with solid roller lifters and he drives it to most every show in the area. Sounds and runs great. I didn't know you could do that but it works.
@@glenclifton4563 absolutely
It's good to hear other perspectives on topics like this. Keep doing this.
@@VGHCX ty, will do
@@powellmachineinc You ever heard of the AI generated Compound Lever Valve Train System {CLVTS} for OHV engines? If so, your thoughts about it.
www.google.com/search?q=compound+lever+valve+train+system+for+internal+combustion+engine&mstk=AUtExfBy8MSA3sMOZgHbMc52QTz9paxGfRThoPKShBoisbXl4r9DI2ohQAV0nn6dSwJ7HZY5R4FfYPL1s-ZlA6sv4_tbrXeX7DLKmMfMntwZYtzPzIqKcmn-ZlXBsHtKtKQ__WNeJ3T6WXzliq50cJP3M4xyLtOUC0mnXracfrHU7uir7GmxL8uOciRX0KaAEapfPnzesWdw6wXsUPKKS1tFPlrPX8BF5O03W5efN6yeVmR59a02FhN42VhxxRqo2Q6BSrHflfyXYay_sRed7Z1M4-aF&csuir=3
@@powellmachineinc You ever heard of the AI generated Compound Lever Valve Train System {CLVTS} for OHV engines? If so, your thoughts about it. thanks
@@VGHCX above my pay grade
@@powellmachineinc😂😂😂
i was doing this 30 years ago with flat tappets in oval track engines. The tracks had a hyd cam rule that you had to run. You can also modify the lifter with a spacer to be a solid, which is what i do for the 602 and 604 engines.
I think the only thing bad to do would be roller lifters on a flat tappet cam.
Good to know about the solid lifters on the hydraulic cam, I've got probably too much rocker weight and not enough spring, so will look at spacers before springs, as I want to protect that cam.
@@gordonburnett9672
Rollers on a flat tappet lobe would destroy itself, if you ever got it to run.
Steve "Stevie Wonder" Morris. I watch Steve. Steve's been doing this since highskrewl and is about 55 or so. He is a professional high dollar engine builder. I think he knows what he's doing most of the time. Glad you answered your viewers concerns.
Exactly!
Being a high dollar engine builder doesn't mean you actually know what you're doing. Look at everybodys favorite American burnout machine builder, NRE aka Nelson 'Racing' Engines.
They build engines that easily eclipse $100k but you'd never seen one in a serious Drag Week car, for example. Or a serious anything, for that matter. You only ever see them in cars that sit at cars shows and do burnouts leaving parking lots.
I mean, yea, Nelson obviously knows SOMETHING to put together the things he does. But I'd never put him in the same class at Steve, for example. Steve knows his s*it. I don't see Nelson in the same league.
@@J.C... cricketsss
@@johnd5805SSC motor seems fairly stout
@@J.C...
First time I saw nelson put a cold engine on the dyno and do a full pull on that DEAD COLD engine, i wrote him off as a big talking showman!
With the money his clients spend an even half-decent builder would get similar results...
PLUS, every person I've ever known that swore like Nelson wasn't worth knowing.
Engine masters did an episode about this and had excellent results, Steve Brule wanted to do some longevity testing but was very good episode. Steve basically did zero lash , tightening the rockers till he could just barely turn the pushrods cold.
@mb-fs1yo it's old, people been doing this for 50 years
Been a few Circe track racers back in the day put solids on hyd. Flat tappet. It worked then but wouldn’t try it these days, cams were much better quality then.
Holding the valve closed. Oh no 😮 Awesome work. Thanks a ton, your hands on efficient approach, and real world experience, know how, and analysis helps us all to realize the how and why. Thanks.
I use to run solids on a hyd profile for years , but I decided to try a solid roller since like you said why run the hyd when you can get more out of a solid , so any this was in my 632 in a boat the hyd cam was 262/270@.050 on a 114+2 I installed it at 110 icl .631” then I switched to a solid roller 260/268@.050 on a 112+4 icl was 108 .697 “the difference in performance was incredible it accelerated much harder, turned the same propeller 400 rpm more and it idled much better , needles to say I haven’t ran a hyd in a big block for years , also for anyone that reads this , if you haven’t tried a cam from Powell you should I’m about too order my 3 rd cam from them since September
Good stuff. Years ago, I built a 496 bbc for a client that wanted a very low maintenance bracket car. Set the lash @.002 cold. Still runs great today. It's easy to monitor by checking the lash as you had mentioned.
@johnsartelle8320 absolutely!
I love your channel. The knowledge here is first class. But I’d just love to hear you say “god damnit Bobby!”
Lol, maybe one day.
@@powellmachineinchaha in all seriousness thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Thanks for the clarification, I thought this would work fine by allowing the valvetrain to be more stable. I am glad to feel my instinct was correct. Love the videos, always more learning for me!
@davidgough1161 tyvm!! Glad u like them
Been running a Bullet Hyd Roller with solid lifters and springs for around 500 passes in my bracket car. I backed off the lash till it lost mph in the 1/8th and settled in there at .018 lash. It’s not if it can be done, it does work and is really easy on the valve train.
@TheSargeGX43 if it likes that much lash it's just to much cam for the application
I learned about HR Cam and Solid Lifters from Bullet when specking out my odd-fire cam.
Can you pls explain the relation between why liking that much lash means overcammed? Thank you
@johnbean2596 The idea is that, as you add lash, you reduce overall duration. If the valve events are overly aggressive, more lash will continue to help torque and power output
@@tadwiltman4875 Will adding lash tend to damage the rollers?
Thanks for the vid.This has been around for years great you took it on for your subscribers. For the haters and non believers this wasn't even one of his builds. So if it went BOOM! he would been wanting to sell a lot of merch. I'll be a new subscriber. I like Steve open and sometimes I think he likes the hits.
Definitely
Always a lot of variables involved thanks for info I really enjoy and appreciate both yours and Steve's content.👍
Appreciate you!
Another great video! To me if i want something to rev its better to go solid vs trying to keep the hyd lifter happy.. that gets really tricky like you stated. Mass is always the enemy
Andy
Great vid, I think a lot of this started with one of the big car mags back in the day saying that Hydraulic cams lacked clearance ramps. I was one of those who believed it for years until one day I took a dial indicator on a lifter and tried to show a guy in the shop how hydraulics did not have ramps and surprise surprise..
Really great of you explaining the usual variations in the ramps and the differences in acceleration between solid and hydraulic cams.
@1bottlefed glad it helps
You are definitely the man brother. Love your videos, just awesome informative content that you explained in pretty dang layman terms. Great great job as always.
@@edwardrock1666 we really appreciate the support 🙏
Appreciate the in depth answer to this. I learned a few things i didnt know.
@@HoonGoon177 glad it helps!
When the content creator (Powell Machine) is smarter than the internet 😏 the smile as the video began epic. I like they add emphasis as to how good they are by doing these videos sitting at the desk in their shop - with the business they own 👍
@@haroldkellermier5502 lol
Seen your cam on the dyno in a 604 replica of sort with your cam , aluminum 200cc heads and a 85? Torque storm supercharger make 1000hp on a 010 block!
You are a beast and someday hope to have a cam of yours in my sbc! Congratulations! 🎈
Combination, combination, combination. Agreed with what you state and thank you for getting in the weeds on the why. I am a little surprised the interwebz blew up but then again, I've lurked online email lists, forums etc.for a long time. So with that said, I am not that surprised some people flipped their lid. 20 years ago BBC guys were running solid roller lifters on hydraulic roller cams with tight lash, trying to get low maintenance higher rpm, with big valves. As with most things people had varying degrees of success. Solids on a hydraulic profile are not common now but better hydraulic performance lifters are out and lobe design has improved.
Our pleasure
Great Video Daniel. I watched this a few weeks back. i Just want to say that even the Drag Guys that are checking Lash every pass are only doing it to see if they have a Lifter or Push Rod cup going away. If the lash changes you have a problem like you said. Tight and you probably hurt a valve. Loose you probably hurt a lifter or Push rod / Adjust Cup or a Rocker.
Absolutely!
A well known engine shop in the Midwest recommended this on a build about 20 years ago.
If you know what you are doing as a engine builder it can be done.
I only deal with the best 👍
Dont, think Steve could pick a better camshaft designer! He'll, be pleased with your product! I'm, super stoked for you, Daniel!
@@strokermaverick ty sir,
Intake valve bouncing off the seat upon valve closing while the piston is rising would create spikes in inlet manifold pressure in a supercharged (blown, turbo, centrifugal, etc) engine.
@@Jeffsa12 absolutely
Ran solid lifters on my turbo car for well over a decade. Was a 354” stroker sbf. Ran 5.80s in the 1/8 and drove it on the street a lot. I would check lash every oil change which was maybe twice a year. During winter I would back the valves off since it would sit until spring. Never had an issue w it.
@@Insanestang89 absolutely 💯
I built a sbc 383 back in the late 90’s. It has 230/244 comp hyd roller. It wouldn’t rev past 6200. Fell on it face. Most people said “because 383 doesn’t rev”. Yea, right. I put solid roller lifters on it, lash at .006 intake and .008 exhaust and omg. I was shifting off the rev limiter at 7800. It sounded so nasty (in a good way) revving that high. That was in my daily driven 3rd gen Camaro that ran 11.56 @121 in the late 90’s. Full weight car on 17” ROH snipers on 555r crappy drag radials with a 1.9-2.0 60ft
I`ve done just that, I dynoed the engine 12/26/23 my customer put it in his truck and its still running and never had the V/Covers off it, no noise at all, burn`t off 2 sets of rear tires, has had 2 oil changes and destroyed 2 transmissions runs in the street turns 7000rpm with the chip. It has solid roller springs and Jesel shaft mounts. I set the lash at "0" cold with enough preload so I could still turn the pushrod with a small amount of drag. When its hot theres no drag on the pushrod and I can`t feel or detect any lash. I believe the aluminum heads add about .004 inch to the lash so it loosens the preload. If youre intrested camspecs are 242/252 on a 110+4 with .615/.605....427cid sbc dart 9.325deck
Prominent Pontiac v8 builders from the early 2000’s ran tightly lashed Solid roller lifters on Hydraulic roller cams with great success.
Ie Cliff Ruggles, Butler brothers and others.
I saw Steve's video when he put it out. It reminded me of a question I posed to My engine Guru back in the 90's. I wanted to run mechanical valve springs on a hydraulic cam. I was trying to build a racy early SBC out of the Dana engine parts catalogue (I worked at NAPA). He said it 'could work' but even with the Sealed Power high rev hydraulic lifters they just won't like that 100lb boost in spring pressure. I'm still running that combo in a steel crank '68 327 installed in my '86 K5 Blazer. It is way better than the 305 that came in it. Thank You for adding to this topic. Happy New Year!! Please keep the vids coming. ✌
I did this with flat tappet and roller cams for years. Works perfect every time! Zero lash cold and you are good to go.
I think steve says in the video he didn’t build that engine. So he just had to make it work. Great video by both of you guys.
Thanks for watching 👍
Another great video, Would be awesome to see you doing some cams for Steve!
Maybe one day!
I run a traditional Pontiac with a BULLET CAMS custom Hyd roller with LS firing order it’s quiet and very smooth on valve-train.Oh and I tight lash at .007 it works great!These setups are for drag and drive kinda deal for reliability…
I had a very respectable engine builder build me a 427 LS this year. Blower motor. For whatever reason he put a adjustable shaft mount rocker system on the heads he did for me. Floated the valves and wouldn’t rev past 5500 ended up having to switch heads. Sucks because they weren’t cheap. Was very surprised he didn’t know not to run the heavy rockers on a boosted LS unless you’re going full solid.
Lots of people are just guessing
i just swapped in morel solid rollers on my ford 349 n/a with a trickflow 242/246 hydraulic roller cam, ilI did bump spring pressure up a little and switch to titanium retainers to also help valve control, 0 lash cold has worked fine for me with aluminum heads and iron block so far.
Yes sir! That's the ticket!
What's your measured hot lash??? 0.004" to 0.006"?
You need about. 006 hot,
I've ran soild lift SBC combos my whole life. Last time I had the valve covers off my street car was 12 or so years ago 🙂
I’ve ran solid lifters on my hydraulic FE cam for 5 years, cast block and heads no problems, set the lash at the 4 thousands both intake and exhaust.like you said, never have any valve adjustments
Harley Davidson has hydraulic roller valve lifters since 1936. You could always and easily convert these solids. The pushrods are adjustable. They run great this way although a little noisier. Same cam.
We always ran solid lifter on stock flat tappet cams back years ago when they were mandated by the racing organization
Flat tappet is a solid.
@ a
“flat tappet” is the lifter design. Can be either solid or hydraulic
I have run solid roller lifters on SBC step nose hydraulic roller cams numerous times. There is actually a drop in solid roller lifter for the stock SBC and LS lifter retention setups as well.
Been doing that trick for years, on the street in vintage engines with a hydraulic roller cam. With aluminum heads, I set the lash so tight, it's basically zero cold. You can use strong hyd. roller dual springs (or beehive) and have long life from lifters and springs, compared to a true mechanical roller profile with murder-strong springs. NO it's not as much power as a mechanical roller lobe profile, but there's not the bad dynamics of the heavy hyd. roller lifter and the aggravating noise and pump-up that is common with retro-roller hyd. units. A compromise, but it beats a flat tappet anymore!!
Good stuff, DP. I saw that video on Steve’s channel and felt sorry for those poor GM lifters. 😂
@@jonelford lol, definitely
Very interesting, thanks for the discussion on these cam profiles.
I've been running solid roller on a hydraulic roller cam since the 80s
Apples to oranges here, but in the G3 hemi world , we have NO off the shelf Solid roller cams , I run a set of Hydraulic body lifters that have been rebuilt with an alum plug replacing the hyd plunger , I run .008 lash cold . have about 4 years on this combo, 25k miles , I check the lash every oil change , and call it a day.(Smith Bros pushrods.)
@TaylorJensen-ys2cv definitely, it's hard to believe that platform doesn't have more valvetrain offerings
We're running solid roller lifters on 408w with trickflow stage 5 cam. No issues at all and great up and torque.
Absolutely
The last time I had my car out, I usually shift about 6,500.(10lbs of boost) This last run I ran it to 7,100 . It hit a peak of 21lbs of boost. Being a hydrologic cam, I assumed valve float. After watching Steve's video , I'm convinced that's my problem
love your vids.thanks for taking the time to share..
@@davecorreira3886 my pleasure
I have this set up in my stroked BB Olds. I've set the lash at .005 cold. This is only a street driven car. Whatever it is hot is what it is ;-)
Absolutely
I had a hydraulic flat tappet lifter fail and had to get to work on the next day. Put hydraulic roller lifters in that small block Chevy and then rebuilt it 2 weeks later. It's against the rules but it got me home. Don't do it. It will eventually screw stuff up but, I had no choice at the time. Y'all have a good one.
Interesting stuff for sure. I'm an old timer & remember hearing stories in early NASCAR of engine builders of the 1950's doing the "solid tappet/hydraulic cam" thing back then because everything in the motor was supposed to be STOCK (which it rarely ever was!) and the OHV Chevy's & Olds engines all had Hydraulic lifters from the factory at that time. Now i'm waiting for some nut to try a Hydraulic lifter with a Solid cam lol...!
To throw a wrench in, back when there where not many options in the mid 70's we ran Hydraulic lifters at .013 lash on the old GM 2nd Design Z28 Off Road camshafts on the street, to knock them down a bit ran pretty well for the day.
Whew that's rough
you know uncle tony's garage just had this exact topic but in reference to a purchase of parts. i think more people are fixing their cars and are becoming aware of the nuances of engine systems.
I have ran hydraulic cams in circle track competition. We run them at zero lash or actually a bit looser. If you don’t, the valves will remain off the seat when closed due to pump up. I would have a miss above 7,000 rpm if had ANY preload in the rocker arm. I turned it 7,400 rpm in the heats.
@The340king the only way a hyd lifter can pump up is if it's floating the valves
I've been running this setup since it came out on Engine Masters. It works great! The lash has never needed adjustment and it runs to 8k. It allows for lash loops in case you were off a few degrees on your cam selection. It's also just nice to know you are losing nothing from inconsistent hyd lifters. This is only street driven, roughly 5k miles so far.
That's awesome!
We were fighting a hydraulic lifter collapsing on a street engine with a 0.540 lift.
We changed several lifters without fixing the problem.
We ended up putting solid lifters in and the lifter noise went away.
We adjusted valve lash all the way from 0.012 to 0.006 hot. Afraid to go tighter.
After about the 6th time of taking the BBC cast iron intake off, we noticed a little carbon chunks in the lifter Valley.
Seems that the carbon/burnt oil had built up under the heat shield on the bottom of the intake. It would come out while the engine was running and plug up the lifter at high rpm. We did not build the engine.
After dropping the oil pan to clean it out and drilling out the rivets on the heat shield of the intake, we ran a gallon of seafood through the engine like we were priming it with the lifters removed.
We then flused the oil pan and reinstalled the hydraulic lifters.
Problem solved.
Sometimes testing needs to be done.
Did you use crab or shrimp or.....? What works best? 😄
@@JG-kv4oi
Auto spell check. I hate it.
Awesome content. You added a sub. Im not sure what software you use since I've been out of it a while, but looks similar to the old Jones software. And I do believe Steve went in the wrong direction of allowing the customer to dictate the build instead of building to the use case. It's definitely float, as you described, and 100% should have been a solid application. The ramp rates alone would be better, let alone AUC and lift. Probably could take some boost out of it, be more reliable, and still hit the target power. Thanks for commenting. 👍
@Kingsize24 thanks for supporting our channel
We have done this in an instance of a truck that needed the torque of a smaller cam which is hard to get in solid roller and a customer impatient to wait for a good set of retro hydraulics to come in stock, I should also add it was a big block Chevy and we will not install or warranty flat tappet cams. The customer is welcome to take it and install whatever cam they want but we we to our rules in order to not be to blame…. Point is the engine has something like 5 years and 70k on it with zero issues lash never moved when it came in 3 times to be checked at our auto repair side. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it as it can get complicated and be a cause for more confusion and constraints, other big thing is if someone who has no idea what they are doing fools with it they will screw it up really easily.
Interesting story!
That said lets run a regular solid lifter used on a hydraulic lifter cam but not a roller type, same thing applies, you need to have room for oil to get in there. Old adage is that a little loose is better than too tight...
I have bushed LS hydraulic lifters so there's like .020 of hydraulic travel after preload is set. The .020 is lash so it's like a hydraulic solid hybrid. Super comp requires a hydraulic lifter so it passes tech requirements.
you lost me on the graph, but I'm also at work and distracted. Great videos man!
Thanks for the video, I think these Q&A / reaction videos are going to work out just fine.
Boost is a measure of restriction, right? I had a procharged setup that would see a boost spike at high rpm. I assumed it was valve float. Springs losing control of the valves, and not allowing air to pass efficiently.
I may be way off base. That was just my thought.
That is definitely 1 scenario
I bult a Ford 302 with boss pistons and 351C 4v heads and a Boss 302 intake. I orded a Comp Cams 280H hyd cam and solid lifters and they told me it was ok just set valves to .012 and .018. Ran incredible for 2 years and sold it.
That's a lot of lash
I've been running solid lifters on hydraulic cams, on flat tappet and roller for 35 years without issue. I set my lash at .005-.006 and never look back... But you cannot run hydraulic lifters on solid cams.
U can
I've run hydraulic lifters on plenty of solid cams. Been doing it for decades.
I liked my Rhoads lifters. They bleed down at idle to tame idle and act as a solid at revs. It certainly did the job and gave another easy 500 rpm up top. But I always preferred the solid lifter cam setup but the valve train always took a hammering and noisy. Running zero cold lash with hyd lift solid cam must be quiet and easy on the valvetrain. I will certainly try.
A hyd lifter with a high bleed rate at idle also has a high bleed rate at 6k rpm, it's just physics
@powellmachineinc I experimented with them quite a bit "back in the day."
They did sometimes seem to slightly help with idle, vacuum, and perhaps a little low end torque.
But they also consistently killed some top end power. (Add in some noise and fear of self destruction)
As Daniel says physics. Though even Milliseconds become functionally shorter as crankspeed increases...
My best success with high bleed rate lifters was an inefficient crutch for insufficient displacement combined with absurd cam profiles. It was fun, but a better matched combo is superior.
I commented on that video, saying that you had talked about this issue before and the fix is what he did. Powell and Morris were in agreement, not sure what weed people smoke while watching TH-cam..
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
@@cjespers very welcome 🙏
The intake is floating causing the boost spikes. Boost is a measure of back pressure.
I’ve been running solid lifters on hydraulic cams for years. The correct lash is very critical. Good video though. Thanks Daniel
Absolutely 💯
I suffered thru a hyd roller on a blown motor application years ago. Boost working against valve springs is a problem. Valve area x boost "steals" spring pressure.
You are 100% correct about GM lifters now days, they are just not that good anymore, the lifters rollers always brindle away... I prefer Johnsons lifters when it comes to LS stuff. 👍
Great explanation
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
depends on the lash ramp on the cam flank , but most of the time the hydraulic roller lifter ramps are pretty tame compared to solid rollers.
@seancollins9745 the ramp and flank are different area's, and it doesn't depend, all hyd profiles use a ramp hieght of .004
I think you answered it earlier. The hydraulic lifters Steve had in use were probably weak enough to allow the intake to be blown open and were holding the exhaust closed. It looks like there is a critical RPM where the lifters loose control and you can see it in his graphs.
Great stuff Daniel, thanks for taking the time to educate us on the subject!
Oh, and Steve needs to watch your channel too! Love his stuff but every so often you can see he doesn't know it all.
@@sesampley ha! Tyvm
It’s worth noting, Steve didn’t build the motor. He was getting a good base tuneup and making sure the combo worked.
@@brycedavis907 Absolutely, NO shade cast on Steve whatsoever!
Steve builds engines for a very specific use, drag and drive and these engines are built entirely different from the typical performance engines. These engines need to make runs, while driving a 1,000 + miles and idle sometimes for hours while sitting in traffic. Tom Bailey went in the 5.99 after a week of racing and driving a 1,000+ miles on a
Non max effort engine. He builds them to last and even though he did not build the engine in question this is what people go to him for. He has proven time and again, he builds engines, that power 4,200 lb cars that again run a 1,000 + miles and race 5 days in a row, and some for multiple events. He also only builds boosted engines.
@ I figured I’d mention it for all to know. It definitely helps understand why some things were not an ideal combination.
Well, when we test the piston to valve clearance’s on high lift hydraulic cams, we use a pair of hydraulic lifters on one cylinder, with a layer of clay on the piston, and rotate the engine carefully more than 720° to make sure the cycle operated both valves 100%. no pump up required, and if there was enough clearance we installed the rest of the piston’s on the rods lubed the lobes and bottoms of the hydraulic lifters, pushem up tubes and rocker contact points ready for assembly, installed the actual heads I used a sawed off section of another head, with identical dimensions and valve-train components, I also used another section with a hogged out valve guide and a needle roller thrust bearing washer combination to fit an adjustable fly cutting tool set it at the minimum clearance over valve face diameter and with a collar on the stem set it to limit the cutting tool travel to match the minimum clearance bring each slug to tdc install with 4 bolts (snug) right after installing the pistons and rods, before trusting this jig I tested and weighed a full set to log the reduction in bob weight, and drill the throw weight holes accordingly but it worked out because the longer rods I used were a few (.01 - .03) heavier on the little end and I had only compensated for the wrist pin weight.) pushmatubes, and teeter-totters pre set the lash. and didn’t realize until after pre running the engine for the cam’s 10 minute break in, that I forgot to pull the solids out of #1, & stuck the hydraulic’s in the box of new solids as I fine tuned the valve lash. Luckily I ran a spare intake with a reusable gasket and coolant jacket bypass tubes for initial run in, I swapped the lifters & installed the new manifold and only had to adjust the last two valves. (30+ years ago.)
When the engine masters contest was still going, guys would run a hydraulic lifter with a solid profile for the years that a 'hydraulic roller' was allowed. They would set preload down 20 thou from the bottom and beat the piss out of the lifters. During tech teardown, its still a hydraulic lifter even if it is working like a solid.
Yup did one for road racing Ls T@D over 17years ago went to solid roller on a Hydraulic cam profile engine seen 7000+ many times it works just fine but I feel much the same just go solid for hill and hole and hill climb or any were I know were seeing +5000 most of the time solid roller 21:28
Oh yes that re lash all the time is a bunch of crap less valve train is bending or cam or lifter roller is going away there no need to lash but should be checked I ran solid roller on the street for 35 years with 600 lift to 800 for me many customers do not know how to lash lifters for them mild builds they get hydraulic roller cams have had over the years guys that didn't know how to set lash and suck valves and beat up cams
Boost is resistance. Thus, the spike was due to the valves not opening and failing to stay open thus causing back pressure on the system, indicating the boost spike you see on the big end of the RPM range. Also, the RPM you see the boost spike is the RPM the hydraulic lifter is failing to do its job.
The blower isn't the only place to get pressure!
@@powellmachineinc so are you suggesting that back pressure is also being created by the cylinder pressure that did not escape the chamber during the failed exhaust valve opening?
@atlasintegrations4114 most likely bouncing at at ivc
@@powellmachineincThank you! Someone respectable finally confirmed my first theory!
did it for 30k miles in my small block works very well!
@@trevermonk8575 💯
Customer dependent also if they only have so much to spend and want to use the parts they have sometimes you just have to come up with solutions to make it the best possible. I would bet a lot of shops would just do what people want and send it out and not even know there was a problem.
@williamanderson4706 definitely agree
Thanks for the great explanation for us none mechanist out here that just enjoy getting to know the ins and outs of true race engines.
You're welcome!
Before watching this. I feel Steve has put his research in what’s fastest and lasts longer in that situation
@@stevenallen4123 watch it for context
What about that cookie though? I think the Christmas cookie is the real controversy here. Why? Because not only did he not offer me a cookie but not even a nibble!
That's BS man!
@muskyelondragon lol, that's funny
Why would think that's even necessary to say? I don't know anything about what's going to happen but here is my opinion on the entire topic. He might be agreeing. Or arguing. Or making good points either way but you don't know so why?
We used to do it on "Claimer" motors all the time.
Now I think i see why adjusting valves should be done with the Exhaust opening / intake closing method!!
Definitely.
From what I understand what has happened is aggressive solids have made some people skittish about running any solid roller because the aggressive ones cause the valvetrain to self-delete, like in your previous video(s), so they go hyd roller and then run into pump up or bleed down, so this is the solution they have come up with.
Seems to me people need more insight on the specs side of the cams they are buying, how aggressive the profile is. The acceleration and velocity numbers and some reference for what they mean would be a good start..
Absolutely, idk why cam companies are selling them really fast lobes when it's not beneficial....
Engine Masters did an episode where they put solid lifers on a hydraulic cam. I don't know the episode and I can't get into my MT On Demand account to find it. I tried it on my engine by setting it at zero cold. But I never ran that for any length of time.
Definitely
Smartest fella I know.
Tyvm Bobby....u probably just don't know many people 🤣🤣🤣
@ I’m
Just a magnet for the dumb ones. 😂
@@frizzellracing lol
I wonder if going solid roller lifters on a LS engine affects oil pressure.
Steve's station wagon runs 1/4 miles faster than my corvette runs an 1/8th mile. Im certainly not going to say he's wrong
Been doing it for years