Ken Parker Archtoppery - Riff 019 - Introduction to Frankentop
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ต.ค. 2024
- The saga of the "Frankentop" guitar, built in 1980 and undergoing many changes over the years as a test rig for many of Ken's innovations. Discussion of various bracing ideas, neck mounts, a new bridge, "afterlength", examination of the neck joint and installing a longer neck height adjuster, a purfling tool and benefits of purfling, and the overhanging edge of the top. And, finally, a beautiful performance of Miles Davis' Blue in Green on the 2024 iteration of Frankentop by Elden Kelly.
eldenkelly.com
What a gift these videos are to the luthier community! The art AND science advances due to you. Were all indebted and grateful.
Absolutely true!
My Pleasure!
Beautiful instrument, awesome player and sound as well. I’ll never get tired of hearing about the innovations that Ken comes up with. I wish more brands and luthiers were constantly moving forward with their designs and guitar making.
Thank you so much! Discovery is what makes it all worthwhile, no?
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 for sure
A rare and wonderful sight to behold. Two geniuses in the same room! That guitar has 'come of age' after its several previous incarnations and Elden has beautifully demonstrated its rich, warm and vibrant sound qualities. A very welcome treat for someone of my advancing years.
Thanks! Glad you liked it!
Oh my God! This guitar is the story of your ideas and their evolution! You are great for showing us all this! And after all these modifications in Elden's hands it sounds amazing with the nylon strings Elden chose! This is your second guitar that made such an impression on me in a week. The Lil Swami you showed me last week in Brooklyn had an amazing midrange, and the chords and consonances sounded amazing. This episode of your Archtoppery series is probably my favorite. Thanks, Ken! 🫶
Lil' Swami will be the first of my guitars to be fitted with a short-scale neck at the request ofher owner. I'll use 24.5", or 622mm, and make a full report! Thanks for your kind words!
KEN is a genuinely warm and positive character. If you ever get the chance to have an instrument built by him the whole experience will be worth the effort
Aw shucks.
34:22 to hear it through a piece of music is sublime. I only imagine how it feels in the room. The interpreter, Elden Kelly, is a total master.
We all agree. What a spectacular musician!
I love that there are four mics and four guitar neck shadows in the end when Elden plays. Great video, thank you!
Alignment
Fascinating video and magnificent rendering by Elden at the conclusion.
Ain't Elden a treat? Wow, what a Master!
that guitar has an amazing blend of tone - very unusual for a classical stringed guitar - thanks for your work & time
Glad you like it!
Once again sir, superb insight into the process of creation and evolution of guitar building excellence. Thank you ever so much, its fascinating to watch. The lucky lad playing it is quite the player, wow.
Thanks, ain't it grand?
BRAVO Les Deux....great guitar and great playing. LOVE THIS VIDEO.!!
Thanks, Clem!
Extraordinarily beautiful! Love your channel!
Splendid! Thanks!
The ‘proud daddy’ smile on your face as Elden began working Frankentop out was priceless. At the end of the day, that’s got to be a big deal, hearing your work making beautiful music.
Noticed this too, with a smile in my heart. :)
This is, how instrument building should be done, being happy to see and hear it in the hands of the musician.
This is how I get paid, for sure.
Bazakly! What else?
Eldin's playing is as unique as the guitar Ken built so long ago. What a match!
Love that guy.
Wonderful explanation about the purfling and the influence to the stiffnes, tone and resonance.
There´s always something fundamental to learn. Thank you for your time and this gift.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow, wonderful excursion into innovation! And great playing, thanks guys!
Our pleasure!
Always a delight to learn from Professor Parker. As to Mr. Kelly - bravissimo, maestro!
Thanks!
Thanks again, Ken, these videos are a gift!
It's my pleasure.
So fun and fascinating to watch, thanks!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for the quality videos sir. Great builder, great reputation fantastic presentation. I have enjoyed your content so much. I’ve learned and enjoyed these videos and will watch again!
Thank you very much! Glad to have you in the forum.
Appreciate how you are always experimenting.
Apparently, it can't be helped, guilty as charged, your Honor.
I loved hearing about the journey of this test-bed guitar. Also, that young dude sure can play. (Old guy whips out a tuning fork. Young guy puts on his Snark digital tuner.) Thank you Ken and team. What a fun video!! As always.
Ha! Elden resembles a magic wand, no?
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 Totally!
Excellent all around , thanks for sharing
Glad you enjoyed it
Incredible instrument, thank you for presentation 👋✨
Thanks Glad you liked it
Sounds beautiful. What a journey that guitar has been on😄 The end result is well worth it😊
Thank you kindly!
Simply amazing on many levels. Beautiful design and sound! Thanks for taking us on your journey, I like to hear these origin stories and learn about the design process.
That masking tape trick will come in handy in the future. Why didn't I ever think of that?! lol
Thanks for your kind words!
It seems that often the obvious lives in the shadows, doesn't it?
"Why didn't I think of that ?", or the variant "Why didn't I think of that (cite # of years) years ago?" are healthy evidence of "beginner's mind" covered in humility, an invaluable state for any of us students!
Ever think that sometimes the best one makes could be the very first thing one makes? This was a wonerful video. And that playing at the end was like warm sunshine.
I know how this can be, sometimes it's the genius of "beginner's mind", before you "know better". I was 27, and knew a fraction of what I know now, but there's that young punk thing that sometimes hits a homer. Anyhow, it took Elden to demonstrate what the guitar was capable of!
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 This is all making my day ! Oh that's goods stuff / an the tone , of the video, of the explanations, and of playing combined is just magical! Bravo and thanks to both performer & luthier. In other words - This, is a hot sauce kind of blend I appreciate! - Very best to you KP, T.
Interesting ... and wonderful performance!
Thanks!
My God, that instrument is incredible!!!
Thanks very much, I'm so pleased that Elden has shown us how well it works!
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 Oh, Yeah! He is a brilliant player.
love it, very faschinating about the violin edge for longevity and repair =)
A practical solution, yes?
Plus, I love the way it looks, plus you can't fake it with a router, must be done by hand, kinda soul-satisfying, I think.
Men from the boys, and all that.
Beautiful guitar!
Finally she's graduated from wallflower!
Very cool 👍👍
Thanks!
I love this series! The detail and technicality is so well explained by Ken, it is never too dry, or boring. Oh yes, the guitar sounds great too. PS Robert Benedetto made a stunning looking Classical archtop, featured in his book. I wonder how that sounds compared to Frankie.
Thanks so much for your praise. I think that the obvious key to making a sensitive guitar holding nylon strings is what looks like scary thin plates. At half the tension, and much less mass than bronze acoustic guitar strings, the nylon strings exert so little force, at rest and in motion, that the guitar body must be extremely supple in order to speak well.
Fascinating as always Ken and what a piece of history. I love the attitude to experimentation when faced with a new challenge. I was going to say should go in a museum when you’re finished with it but it sounds great so maybe better that it’s played.
Once it was complete, the top had a resonant frequency of 124hz or a B. Does this result in B notes that are louder than other notes? Would it not be preferable to have a top that resonates at a frequency the strings are not likely to vibrate at so as to avoid wolf tones?
The truth is that there is a profound difference between what we call a "free" plate and what we call a "bound" plate. The first is unattached, like the plates in the Polaroids, and the second means glued to the sides. The resonant frequencies of these two conditions are not at all alike, and there is lots of discussion and controversy about how these two conditions are related, what does what, etc. etc.
Your questions are among these talking points, and I guess I probably can't really answer them to your satisfaction, but it sounds like you're on the right track to me. I don't try to aim parts at resonant frequencies, I mostly try to get all the parts to be flexible and co-operative, without hard transitions.
Thank you for taking the time to answer. It really is a fascinating subject (though obviously very complicated and seemingly as yet "unsolved") and as other commenters have said, your sharing of knowledge is a truly special gift.
magnifique
much love
So glad you're getting it, thanks.
The Cat gut acoustical society was down the street from me when I lived in Montclair, NJ. I knew her name from reading guitar making journals, so I was surprised to see the sign on the building.
How Cool is that! Did you ever visit?
It’s serious when Ken is drawing diagrams. Thanks Mr Parker.
Ha! I love this.
So I'm working on these 60mm high guitar sides now, I'm using solid wood for kerfing that I'm bending. And there is only 30mm of spacing between the 2 bands of kerfing, on which I will put another band of kerfing that is 10mm wide, so a stepped kerfing which is laminated. Question is, with this limited guitar side height, is it necessary to make these vertical support posts? to me it seems kinda redundant, but maybe it has something to do with tone transfer from top to bottom or something that I'm unaware of.
About these overhanging top and backs, I really like that perfling trick, protecting the majority of the top. I think I won't do overhanging tops/backs though, but rather a strip of wood around the entire perimeter, to also lock in the endgrain. Or just having the binding stick out like that a bit. My thinking is that it protects the sides just as well, but also if there is impact on that binding, it would distribute the force over the side of the top rather than having the top deal with impact directly, reducing the chance the top splits at all?
I don't think you'll need vertical braces on the sides, just my take.
Thanks for taking me/us down the rabbit hole of historical craftsmanship and directly into emulation of classic practices and theories/ideas - this is an amazing vehicle you've ended up with and it remains an incredible instrument hammered into something that sings when you pick it up because so much is waiting to come out of it.
Look into modern "friction" tuners - they have planetary gears these days so they not only avoid the degradation of holding traditional ones can experience but also are available in different gear ratios and peg diameters. I was going to install cello tuners on this open headstock (basically a loop of wood) Samick fretless bass I saw but someone bought it ahead of me so that experiment never happened. I'd rather that than "banjo" or Steinberger style, et al.
I love tuners, and have gotten in the deep end of this pool for many years. Are yu speaking of Herin or Knilling? These are designed for bowed instruments and are very light. For guitar, check out Rickard Cyclone pegs. Absolutely amazing build quality, the only pegs w/o backlash and utterly unique!
Fabulous ! Pure sounding @rickbeato
Thanks, I'm so pleased to know Elden. One of a kind.
Interesting that the stress riser caused by the perfling channel results in an improved response in the lower frequencies. It makes sense when you think about the desire for thinner edges on a top plate, but it's an interesting path to achieve the goal. When I think about speaker cones and how the edges are in essence sprung, I wonder if there is any wisdom to glean from that type of assembly... I have a glue that I'm developing with a lab and its got me thinking about the type of adhesion and whether different glues would result in an increase or decrease in ability for the top to float at that joint... Well, again, thanks for stimulating some early morning nerdy thoughts in my head!!!
Yeah! I agree about the speaker cone surrounds. New Glue? Do Tell!
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 The glue is nothing super special. It's a reverse engineer of a glue that is no longer available. It started as a PVA that was supposed to imitate fish glue... Harder and less flexible than a typical PVA. We are working to get a few of the qualities of a protein based glue into a resin that has a decent working time and doesn't have to be heated up... I know I'm not the only one who has done this. It's been interesting so far!
A truly fascinating explanation. Thanks for this and for all the other videos you've gifted the world. Please keep it up!
My question is regarding the thinning of the plate at the edge where the purfling is inlaid. Logically I can follow your explanation about how it reduces the thickness of the plate by, let's say, half, thereby very significantly reducing the stiffness at that joint. In theory, this should mean that the top is way more compliant than a top that doesn't have such a purfling channel in it.
But while I completely follow the theory, I don't see how practice stands behind it. If it did, then one would expect that steel string guitars with wide purfling - say a Martin D45 - would *on average at least* have much, much greater bass response that guitars with thinner purfling or none at all - say a Martin D1. But, at least in my experience, this doesn't seem to be the case.
Is your experience different? How do you think about this?
Many thanks in advance!
In the mid '70's, when I was first trying to understand and optimize guitars with the hope of becoming a repairman/builder, the group of folkies and old-timeys I found myself in all had old Martins. Back then these were just "old guitars" and not worth 1/4 million bucks, although a lot of them sounded like a million bucks! . We thought that the 41's and 45's we knew (20's and 30's mostly) sounded better, and I remember someone musing that perhaps you might build in the white, string them up to evaluate, and treat your best instruments to abalone purfuling to give them an extra boost. I really don't know that I have a firm opinion on this particular flat-top thing. There are so many variables, and flat tops are truly a different animal!
I promise you that my boxes sound very different before the cutting of the purfuling groove, after cutting this groove, (about 1/2 the plate thickness), and again after gluing in the purfuling. It's a big deal.
Kens instruments and innovations are wonderfull. Just one thing to point out. The Viola da Gamba instument family is not the predecessor of the violin. The viola da gamba is historically tied to the guitar. It had/has frets, tuned in 4th and had +/- 6 strings. Playing also includes chords and bowtechnics similar to fingerpicking. Vihuela/Viuhela da arco=Guitar played with bow. The construction differed also. Many of the instruments were/are made with heat bent tops that made it possible to make them very very thin. The viola da gambas were made extremely light and the response of the best instruments is quite magical. A very good book about the subject: The Viol / Annette Otterstedt.To me It opened an array of new ideas also for guitarbuilding.regards T
There is so much we don't know about the history of instrument making, it makes a guy crazy. I will say two things that, I think support my imperfect statement (I am not an ethnomusicologist by training, so what do I know?).
1) Viols were replaced by violins in the hands of the best players, and therefore the best composers because of vibrato, a hugely important part of the violin family instrument's voice!
A solo instrument isn't so dependent on polyphony, which the viol's frets enable, as they preclude vibrato.
2) All of the viols were nearly always bowed, so I'm sorry, even though they may (?) have been tuned like guitars, and they have tied on frets, the bow , for me, is a clear line. Guitars are always plucked.
Sounds great! Really tight mids and trebles
Thanks! Imagine how happy I am to have Elden demonstrate this instrument!
It sounds & looks beautiful! Please, What is the brand and weight of the strings?
Have a look about 32:00, Elden explains the set, it's all there.
Lenny Breau would have loved that guitar Leon makes it sound great. Thanks again for the great video.
I think you're right, Lenny, we miss you.
18:07 I figured that one out as well. pretty nice. I actually bought some tubes and axles from ali express, and I had to sand them down on a drill press, I don't have a lathe until the axles would slide in the tubes
Are you using two sets of rods/tubes to attach the neck?
If so, Cranmer has a similar solution..
www.cranmerguitars.co.uk/
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 yeah exactly, I've been in contact with Cranmer, he was very kind to send me a schematic of his design
Love that instrument. Did he say what the nut width is?
Thanks, it has a whole new life and level of respect thanks to the amazing Elden Kelly! '
I think it's about 43mm, or 1.7", but we yanks call this 1 11/16".
'
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 Thank you for your reply. I have a hybrid Laag Lamontane with a 43 nut and its good but I dream about these guitars of yours! Loved Parkers since I saw Adrian Belew with one years ago. And yes Kelly is an absolutely stunning player. Best wishes Tony
beautiful
Thank you! Cheers!
dang beauitful tune there
Agreed. Amazing tune, wonderful performer!
I was always curious as to why no one -- at least no one I could find -- ever tried experimenting with putting a soundpost in a guitar as they do in violins. It clearly enhances the sound in violins.
We have ALL done this, I think, and have learned why guitars don't have sound-posts. A true sonic disaster for an under-powered, plucked guitar! Try it and weep! No Bow, No Go!
I also got these oktava mics, they're awesome
So many good mics!
Still have my nitefly to this day and its been better than any other guitar ive purchased in my time nothing plays like it.
Smiling.
History lesson!
Sir, will you please resend your comments about shears? my stupid finger pressed the wrong button, and TH-cam doesn’t have a “my stupid finger pressed the wrong button” option to recover a mistakenly deleted comment. BTW, Archtoppery readers are so well behaved that in all this time, I have deleted only a few comments, fewer that 5, IIRC, (at least two from inebriated writers who temporarily lost control of the English language) and this just shows what a wonderful community we’re a part of! Also, thanks for your comments over the years, and I agree that poverty can be a real asset in the shop!
Sublim model Sir !
Thanks so much.
I love neck joint - but I would prefer it to be an oval cross section rather than square, it would just be more aesthetically pleasing to my mind.
The joint is square for an excellent mechanical reason, as the strings' forces are applied to flat surfaces and in straight lines. The geometry you suggest might look pleasing, but would offer support and alignment issues, and be a huge challenge to make properly. Go for it, but you're on your own.
dude whe are yer gonna get your eletric guitars back in the world they were amazing
Seriously good question. Stay tuned. Thanks!
Right? What a Wizard!
Great luthier!
Behind Bill Collings…
Yeah, I always had to stand behind that little runt in group photos. Is this what you meant?
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 lol!!
It’s just that I worked for him and with Paul Skelton…we rec’d a damaged BLACK FLY at the shop and we were allowed to test drive it..BILL exclaimed, ‘ Not before I take it apart!’ He was very amazed by you…believe it!
…oh, and that FLY didn’t buzz at all…played like a dream!
You remind me of the guy that made Mark Knopfler a guitar in a music doc\special I just saw. I should look to see if you're the very same or just mostly.
Great stuff BTW.
That's John Monteleone, who is definitely one of the top luthiers alive, but far more traditional in his methods than Mr Parker.
No way. I just saw your comment, I just came back here, because I just watched a video talking about the Parker fly and the guy who made it making archtops before and after,... And I I thought that headstock looked familiar... I was going to say there's two pieces on this guitar that remind me of the Parker fly. Then I see the man's name is Parker
No worries, I coulda done that.
Superlative...
Thanks!