I live in the Traverse City area and worked at a hotel where some of the repair crew was staying. Took them about two weeks to do the repairs so it could be flown out. Great video.
I miss Northwest. Flew on them all the time in the 2000s. I think the last flight I took on a plane with Northwest livery was an Airlink flight from Charleston SC to Detroit in the summer of 2010.
I feel sorry for pilots flying in these kind of conditions with such long hours. Makes me think my career as a graphic designer is completely insignificant in comparison. Kudos to these and all other pilots who strive to do their best.
I hear you. It's as though he feels compelled to recant the entire history of aviation. The padding of otherwise decent videos has me looking immediately at the elapsed time. If everyone got out alive and the video drags on for 45 minutes it's an insult to your viewers.
The "ambiguous" "probably nil" which means you flat out cant land and the fatigue these two obviously felt were definitely the deciding factors in this over run. I'm just thankful my cousin was able to make it home that night. The old adage any landing you can walk away from is a good landing still applies to this day!
A lack of sleep is serious business. I drove Truck over the road for 30 years and I know first hand how one minute you're telling yourself I can handle it ,the next... you are driving through a cornfield with your face on fire from McDonalds Coffee... so i've been told...
Here's the thing being a professional pilot. You can break all the rules and if you complete the flight safely.. No questions will be asked. The day something happens, the company and FAA with go thru the timeline with a fine tooth comb.. Finding anything to hang you. This happens not most times... But all the time.
It's very tricky to land on snow or icy conditions on the runway, and these are one of few cases that they screwed up. Anyway, this is the last Northwest Airlink accident before Delta merged Northwest in 2009, which become Delta Connection, Delta's brand name for regional flights.
I flew 26 years 6500 hours doing aerial surveys. Once when flying charter, I turned down a flight that would have made a long long day of it and there was heavy icing. The dispatcher was not happy with me. Mr. Mark Twomby from AOPA landed in the Porsche Money with a greater than 6-inch-long fan shaped ice accumulation outboard of the boots. I thought I was fired such a big deal was made of it. The next day the Chief Pilot thanked me for not taking the flight. Your life is more important than a career.
How is “probably nil” ambiguous? If something is open to interpretation then it should be interpreted as being the worst case scenario. Therefore “probably nil” means it is nil. In other industries that is a standard. Railroads, for example. If a signal can display “proceed up to maximum track speed” or “proceed at reduced speed, prepared to stop” or “stop” instructions to a train, and it is displaying both “proceed” and “reduced speed” due to malfunction, then the actual instruction to the crew is stop. Any ambiguity is to be interpreted as the most restrictive signal capable of being displayed by the system. I can’t imagine that a similar standard is not in use in the aviation industry.
Until the assessment at the end I thought that the ground supervisor was being appropriate in his distinction between what he knew for sure and what he believed based on experience -- because it had been a little while since his test. It would be good to know what the standards are for evaluating the runway conditions.
The Captain had enough hours under his belt to perform to a higher standard, but fatigue got the better of him. Also had he had a more experienced First Officer maybe he would have been able concentrate more on procedures.
Yes they were. According to ALPA, the investigation into the 2007 Pinnacle Airlines Flight 4712 overrun at Cherry Capital Airport in Traverse City found that the pilots were well trained and liked by other employees. The pilots' records also showed no aviation accidents or violations, and the National Driver Register also revealed no suspensions or revocations.
No one can be up and acting as a flight crew after 16 hours on duty!! That is crazy shit!! This crew must have had an alternate available. Something with a longer runway and surface cleaning. Starting the approach was wrong!! For a check airmen this Captain was not thinking clearly at all! Damn lucky they only bent the airplane!!
According to ALPA, the investigation into the 2007 Pinnacle Airlines Flight 4712 overrun at Cherry Capital Airport in Traverse City found that the pilots were well trained and liked by other employees. The pilots' records also showed no aviation accidents or violations, and the National Driver Register also revealed no suspensions or revocations.
The kids flying that airplane seemed to be doing the best they could with the spotty information they were given. The controllers, however, seemed every bit as disengaged as it's claimed the pilots were.
This is normal northern flight operations - Stand your ground ! Normal or don’t go up there . Don’t be scared - be careful and cautious . Come in hot and show ‘em your turn ! Yeah baby …😅
KTVC is the largest airport in Northern Michigan. My guess is they would have had to divert to either Detroit or go back to Minneapolis if the Northern lower peninsula was experiencing the same conditions.
They could have diverted to Grand Rapids or Lansing. Both of those options would have had plenty long enough, well maintained runways given the conditions.
According to ALPA, the investigation into the 2007 Pinnacle Airlines Flight 4712 overrun at Cherry Capital Airport in Traverse City found that the pilots were well trained and liked by other employees. The pilots' records also showed no aviation accidents or violations, and the National Driver Register also revealed no suspensions or revocations.
According to ALPA, the investigation into the 2007 Pinnacle Airlines Flight 4712 overrun at Cherry Capital Airport in Traverse City found that the pilots were well trained and liked by other employees. The pilots' records also showed no aviation accidents or violations, and the National Driver Register also revealed no suspensions or revocations.
Operations Supervisor " I need to know if you guys are gonna be landing soon cause i gotta..." i gotta what ? GO? because the weather is crummy? the best part is after that crash that supervisor must've been there all night. I hope that incompetent fool lost his job.
I don't think that 'fatigue' had anything to do with the 'accident'. If these pilots had been fresh and alert they would have made the same poor decision to roll the dice and land.
Maybe not. They might have have gotten to the point of "Let's just get this thing on the ground. We are fresher now than we will be in another hour or so." Also, the weather may have been worsening. The plane has to come down at some point.
CHERRY CAPITAL CLOSES ALL THE TIME AT A CERTAIN TIME.... AND IN WINTER THE HOURS ARE EARLIER BECAUSE OF THE WIND AND SNOW.... I Live not too far away from TC.
Love the "Everyone Survives" ones!!!
I heard that 👍👍👍
I live in the Traverse City area and worked at a hotel where some of the repair crew was staying. Took them about two weeks to do the repairs so it could be flown out. Great video.
Thank you! I always wonder
I miss Northwest. Flew on them all the time in the 2000s. I think the last flight I took on a plane with Northwest livery was an Airlink flight from Charleston SC to Detroit in the summer of 2010.
I feel sorry for pilots flying in these kind of conditions with such long hours. Makes me think my career as a graphic designer is completely insignificant in comparison. Kudos to these and all other pilots who strive to do their best.
Working for 14 hours. Railroad engineers and truck drivers are not allowed to work those hours.
Appreciate the existence of this channel providing new content every weekend, other channels died or are dying
Disaster Breakdown - Green Dot Aviation - Wyngx - Fly with Magnar - Three Greens - Calling out Mayday - Mentour Pilot
@@CapitalismSuxx these are not the same type, mentor pilot videos are extremely long boring where he talks too much.
@@CapitalismSuxx Pilot Debrief is very good.
I hear you. It's as though he feels compelled to recant the entire history of aviation. The padding of otherwise decent videos has me looking immediately at the elapsed time. If everyone got out alive and the video drags on for 45 minutes it's an insult to your viewers.
@@CapitalismSuxx My comment about the Pilot Debrief network being good was deleted. Not sure why.
The "ambiguous" "probably nil" which means you flat out cant land and the fatigue these two obviously felt were definitely the deciding factors in this over run. I'm just thankful my cousin was able to make it home that night. The old adage any landing you can walk away from is a good landing still applies to this day!
It makes me wonder why airlines think it's acceptable for their pilots to do that much in one day. Safety shouldn't go over profits.
That is pretty much a standard workday for feeder line pilots.
"Too err is human; to forgive Divine". I have developed a great respect for airplane pilots simply by viewing videos like this.
Pick a blame guy & hire a possible next blame person again. As Aviation The World Turns Soap Opera. Daily life ongoing business organization
you mean profit over safety?
Well northwest was dying
A lack of sleep is serious business. I drove Truck over the road for 30 years and I know first hand how one minute you're telling yourself I can handle it ,the next... you are driving through a cornfield with your face on fire from McDonalds Coffee... so i've been told...
Must've been decaf.
Hauled cows, we had special toothpicks for times like that..
@@dangarrison3503 LMAO... I have no Idea what your talking about ...
@@blrenx to hold the eyelids open?
@@peggyl2849 LMAO...
Here's the thing being a professional pilot. You can break all the rules and if you complete the flight safely.. No questions will be asked. The day something happens, the company and FAA with go thru the timeline with a fine tooth comb.. Finding anything to hang you. This happens not most times... But all the time.
It's very tricky to land on snow or icy conditions on the runway, and these are one of few cases that they screwed up. Anyway, this is the last Northwest Airlink accident before Delta merged Northwest in 2009, which become Delta Connection, Delta's brand name for regional flights.
Controller "Braking action is nil".
Captain: "So anyway, I started landing..."
No. Supervisor said ”probably nil”. You and 38 others watched, but understood nothing...
I flew 26 years 6500 hours doing aerial surveys. Once when flying charter, I turned down a flight that would have made a long long day of it and there was heavy icing. The dispatcher was not happy with me. Mr. Mark Twomby from AOPA landed in the Porsche Money with a greater than 6-inch-long fan shaped ice accumulation outboard of the boots. I thought I was fired such a big deal was made of it. The next day the Chief Pilot thanked me for not taking the flight. Your life is more important than a career.
How is “probably nil” ambiguous? If something is open to interpretation then it should be interpreted as being the worst case scenario. Therefore “probably nil” means it is nil.
In other industries that is a standard. Railroads, for example. If a signal can display “proceed up to maximum track speed” or “proceed at reduced speed, prepared to stop” or “stop” instructions to a train, and it is displaying both “proceed” and “reduced speed” due to malfunction, then the actual instruction to the crew is stop. Any ambiguity is to be interpreted as the most restrictive signal capable of being displayed by the system. I can’t imagine that a similar standard is not in use in the aviation industry.
"Probably nil" is upper Midwest dialect for "you won't be able to stop"
Dontcha know… 😅
Until the assessment at the end I thought that the ground supervisor was being appropriate in his distinction between what he knew for sure and what he believed based on experience -- because it had been a little while since his test.
It would be good to know what the standards are for evaluating the runway conditions.
ole Red takes a gander out onto that landin' area and he sizes it up and spits out an answer quicker than you can shake a stick at it.
That's surprising.
Just for comparison, truck drivers in the US aren't allowed to drive after being on duty for more than 14 hours
Pilots life: hours and hours of routine boredom with seconds of sheer terror.
Like Law Enforcement.
The Captain had enough hours under his belt to perform to a higher standard, but fatigue got the better of him.
Also had he had a more experienced First Officer maybe he would have been able concentrate more on procedures.
Wonder what became of the pilots? Were they allowed to continue flying?
Yes they were.
According to ALPA, the investigation into the 2007 Pinnacle Airlines Flight 4712 overrun at Cherry Capital Airport in Traverse City found that the pilots were well trained and liked by other employees. The pilots' records also showed no aviation accidents or violations, and the National Driver Register also revealed no suspensions or revocations.
No one can be up and acting as a flight crew after 16 hours on duty!! That is crazy shit!!
This crew must have had an alternate available. Something with a longer runway and surface cleaning.
Starting the approach was wrong!! For a check airmen this Captain was not thinking clearly at all! Damn lucky they only bent the airplane!!
They landed 2400' down the runway. That was the problem and likely was caused by the poor weather.
@@deepthinker999
And yet in the closing comments it was indicated had they touched down in the normal TDZ, they couldn’t have stopped.
Everyone survived. The airplane was repaired and returned to service. Not a bad landing, all things considered. 🧐
They say a good landing is one you can walk away from and a REALLY good landing is one where you can use the airplane again, so this was alright.
Traverse City, Michigan is a very nice beach town on Grand Traverse Bay.
Again, I always wonder what happens to the pilots after such incidents.
I would have refused to fly that last flight. They had that choice. The PIC can determine he is too tired and refuse to fly.
Me too.
According to ALPA, the investigation into the 2007 Pinnacle Airlines Flight 4712 overrun at Cherry Capital Airport in Traverse City found that the pilots were well trained and liked by other employees. The pilots' records also showed no aviation accidents or violations, and the National Driver Register also revealed no suspensions or revocations.
The CRJ Just Wanted to Make Plane Angels!
No ILS for runway 10? Wind 040 at 7kts did not help.
I'm with the captain on this one
So you are saying that you would have tried landing in these circumstances?
I’m not
Awwww Piper at Cherry Cap is missed!!! 🐕 🐕 🐕
The kids flying that airplane seemed to be doing the best they could with the spotty information they were given. The controllers, however, seemed every bit as disengaged as it's claimed the pilots were.
Good work. "Nil" means "Nil".
This is normal northern flight operations - Stand your ground ! Normal or don’t go up there .
Don’t be scared - be careful and cautious . Come in hot and show ‘em your turn ! Yeah baby …😅
The reason for the red tail is so in case of a crash, they will be easier to find.
Couple this with the Southwest incident at Midway & the FICON NOTAM format changed in 2016
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Wouldn't neighboring airports have been under the same conditions with snowy runways if they diverted?
I was wondering the same thing.
Probably, but we don't know.
KTVC is the largest airport in Northern Michigan. My guess is they would have had to divert to either Detroit or go back to Minneapolis if the Northern lower peninsula was experiencing the same conditions.
They could have diverted to Grand Rapids or Lansing. Both of those options would have had plenty long enough, well maintained runways given the conditions.
All endeavor (delta branded) 200’s have been retired.
I just woke up and this is the first thing I see
WHY was a 26 year old pilot promoted to CAPTAIN with less than 5,000 flying hours?
As a railroad engineer, I am limited to only 12 hrs. operating time.
Take responsibility
Gotta get there-itis strikes again
Long days into long nights … probably worked out for the best to just land the sucker no matter what it takes…been there…done that…
What happened to the pilots?
According to ALPA, the investigation into the 2007 Pinnacle Airlines Flight 4712 overrun at Cherry Capital Airport in Traverse City found that the pilots were well trained and liked by other employees. The pilots' records also showed no aviation accidents or violations, and the National Driver Register also revealed no suspensions or revocations.
@@gbedmonds1594 Thanks!
Sorry but the tower is to blame on this one. “Not sure, I haven’t checked” should never be uttered to a pilot in bad weather.
I hope these pilots were able to learn from this and continue flying.
According to ALPA, the investigation into the 2007 Pinnacle Airlines Flight 4712 overrun at Cherry Capital Airport in Traverse City found that the pilots were well trained and liked by other employees. The pilots' records also showed no aviation accidents or violations, and the National Driver Register also revealed no suspensions or revocations.
Do lufthansa 181 pls
Or the 1999 Martha's Vineyard plane crash.
27 year old Captain/Check Airman sub 6K hours on a complex twin jet = what we see here.
Can i get merpati nusantara flight 836
Operations Supervisor " I need to know if you guys are gonna be landing soon cause i gotta..." i gotta what ? GO? because the weather is crummy? the best part is after that crash that supervisor must've been there all night. I hope that incompetent fool lost his job.
I don't think that 'fatigue' had anything to do with the 'accident'. If these pilots had been fresh and alert they would have made the same poor decision to roll the dice and land.
Maybe not. They might have have gotten to the point of "Let's just get this thing on the ground. We are fresher now than we will be in another hour or so." Also, the weather may have been worsening. The plane has to come down at some point.
I think that incompetence when fatigued is still incompetence even if we feel some sympathy for their situation
Okay, the pilots messed up... but Pinnacle's poor scheduling and the airport's operations manager certainly didn't put them in position to succeed.
not career enhancing for the check airman...
I'm not getting on the Tilt-A-Whirl with 26 & 27-year-old carneys operating the ride.
Getthereitis strikes again
🙂👍
Please don't use subtitles it really kills the video
Both pilots in their 20's. Are you kidding me?
Burned Out | Northwest Airlink Flight 4712
Burned Out | Northwest Airlink Flight 4712
@DarkCat318, I report it as Spam or Unwanted Content
ATC 'probably'. What kind of information is that? Useless.
CHERRY CAPITAL CLOSES ALL THE TIME AT A CERTAIN TIME.... AND IN WINTER THE HOURS ARE EARLIER BECAUSE OF THE WIND AND SNOW.... I Live not too far away from TC.
IRRITATING GRAMMATICAL MISTAKES THROUGHOUT. COULD NOT CARE LESS ARTTITUDE TO QUALITY. ARRIOGANT. DISLIKE AND DO NOT RECOMMEND.