The wargame community needs more videos like these. All wargames can't be masterpieces and we need to normalise talking about how ridiculously expensive most of them are.
Fair point...then again that has to have something to do with the more expensive production and much smaller print runs and distribution abilities in comparison to all other boardgames in general right...? It can't be just greed by itself after all 😅
One of the many aspects of your channel that makes it so interesting is the evolution of your reviews of games. As the years go on, there's been even more forthrightness about how good a game is (or isn't). That has been very welcome, and in a hobby that is getting crowded and increasing hype-driven, further attests to the integrity and genuineness of your work. Many thanks indeed.
I do think that our capacity for candid speech has grown the longer the channel goes on as we've experienced significantly more games and systems, and as such are more confident in being able to publicly adjudicate what we do and don't enjoy.
My Hobby used to be buying board games then being unable to figure out how to play them or not enjoying playing them. Thinking about it I still do that!
You guys are a class act. Spending time on what’s good while there’s so many games out there to enjoy and play is key, especially in a hobby that demands such a big chunk of our time to be enjoyable. Thanks for the years of reviews, you’ve steered me toward some very good games.
Good video concept. Good video (even if I had to go and lie down when you said you didn't like MBT). :D The beauty of non-computer gaming is that modding (house rules and home brew) is so much easier. If you have a niche interest you'll be happy to take an unsatisfactory game and fix it.
Tank Duel is a huge hit with our wargaming group here in the Philippines. And I understand the frustrations you have with Hitler's Reich. I played it in 2019 WBC and made the semifinals
U-Boat is truly quite a unique game and, while the rules seem complex, it is not as tricky as it first appears to be. Once it all clicks, including the navigation, the rules fade into the background and the real challenge comes in the form of player cooperation and action coordination under periods of intense pressure and limited resources to spare. It is a simulation game, though not in its rules complexity but rather in its difficulty of submarine warfare tactics when your mission is to hunt down the enemy targets when you are often the prey yourself. Certainly happy to teach the game if we ever get a chance to meet in person, perhaps at UK Games Expo if we both attend next year (based in the UK). But definitely don't give up yet on the game - it is a keeper IMHO. As an additional bonus, the designers are currently working on adding further in-game features to the app, based on player feedback we have been giving since its release. I am in no way related to the game, by the way. So this is purely based on my player experience as an owner of the game.
Agreed the game it's not difficult to understand but it's difficult to play well at least for me, but have to say have really good stories always end at the bottom of the sea but have great laugh at the end
Agree on Enemy Action Kharkov, Being a solo player, I only play solo so I have no use for the 2 player mode but paid the price for it literally, over $120!..But in the solo mode as is most J.B games, it's outstanding. looking forward to your report at WBC
I really appreciate your willingness to give your honest opinion on games in a public forum. I agree that it is important to criticize as well as praise games, especially when you play so many different games. (By the way, we still disagree on 2 player EA:K.😀 even though I agreed with you on every other game you mentioned.)
Tank Duel is a big hit with my non-wargaming father and brother. I think I'd prefer to play something more strategic, but they love the unpredictability and it's always fun when a tank explodes.
I can understand your frustration with MBT because I had that same exact reaction the first time I played it. It's hard to see what you can do to avoid getting killed whatever you do, and the main culprit in my book is that the first scenario basically sucks. There are just too many tanks in there, and too few places where you can hide, so half of the scenario is just rolling dice and see how many tanks you can brew. It gets better in the second half of the scenario however, as killed tanks create cover opportunities and less tanks around means you have meaningful ways to navigate the map. The advanced rules are mandatory. I don't know why they even bothered creating a basic system when it takes away everything that makes the game truly interesting. They look long, and they are, but they are very much verbose and if you stick to tanks you can easily move from basic to advanced system by just following the rules as you play. So, yeah, just give it a try.
If MBT is anything like Panzer I really also wish they would get rid of the basic game, and consolidate the advanced, basic and some optional rules into a concise rule set; at least the basic and advance rules. When I get back into this system (Panzer), I will have to reread the basic rules just to set a context for the advance rules. Although I have only played with the advance++ rules, the basic game seems so dry in comparison. I believe MBT, given its heritage, suffers from the same phenomenon. These games are tank miniature rules for cardboard with added scale, and simplified versions just loose the rich tapestry provided by the complete rule set. My 2 cents anyway. 😊
You guys disliked some games that I like but amazingly my games and I didn't burst into flames. Turns out I can still enjoy those games and I don't have to throw a tantrum online. So weird! (Great video, gents)
"Games, Games. Here’s some games. Games that want to get out, ha. See? More games. Games, they vegetize you. See? Bah! If you play the games you’re voluntarily taking a tranquilizer..." Brad Pitt, in 12 Monkeys, 1995
One of the best videos I have seen. They way you exampled why you did not like the games and that someone else might like it was very nice and I wish that other reviewers would also just do a review like this. Putting together a list of games that you played and did not like and why yuu did and why someone else might like the game. Thanks again for a great viedeo.
Always enjoy the road trip conversations, some of the facial expressions are classic. On the current subject unconvinced on tank duel, I like MBT, problem is sat next to Panzer on the shelf, I would like Enemy Action: Kharkov, as a solo, but price is ridiculous £140 ($180) includes p&p. This might upset a few, but I found Men of Iron Tri-pack, dull as dishwater, just sits on the shelf gathering dust.
I'll comment on just two games from your car trip to WBC 1. Tank Duel. I agree it is "meh" (my words, not yours). It has some fun aspects (Up Front for armor), but lacks the depth of a game that will hold my attention. Beer-and-Pretzels with a gang of 6 or 8? I am in for sure! Otherwise I'll play as a filler option one vs. one. 2. MBT. I have run most of the WBC/Avalon tournaments since ~1993, including the last four at WBC. As someone commented above, there are those who come to WBC solely for the tournament. I've seen the differences in Avalon Hiil's and GMT' versions. Both systems have pros and cons. IMO, you are correct that the initiative (rules-as-written) can make-or-break a game. Veteran players agree, so we use the Optional staggered-initiative rule (or other balancing rules) for the tournament. And yes, there are modifiers on the initiative rolls in the advanced and optional rules. I believe your description of turret rules is incorrect. the basic game (nobody plays that to my knowledge) applies a modifier for fire outside of the 60-degree arc of the front of a vehicle, but does not preclude it. The tournament uses the Optional Turret rules along with the Advanced Rules. I was surprised when the GMT version made turrets optional. Yes, getting through the advanced, and some optional rules is tough for sure. But it's a rich system that is a lot of fun for someone willing to plow through deep rules. Jim Day has been very kind to the system's fans by sponsoring this niche tournament, so kudos to him for his efforts. Thanks for your reviews! Rob
Honestly it’d be pretty washout if we did it annually. We try to be (and are reasonably successful at being) judicious on our choices. This is like 4-5 years of duds.
The only one of these I have played is Enemy Action Kharkov. It is actually my favorite solo wargame by far. I've never played it as a two player game, but I can see how it could be tedious there. Also I know a few people who were at WBC this just to play in the MBT tournament :)
A friend of mine introduced me to Hitler's Reich recently. ... it is actually exactly that: A nice little semi-abstract WWII game. Of course... being a WiF player, I really prefer a less abstract game if I play strategic WWII (*) ... but it's a good game, - if you just have the most recent rules. *: Not USE, however.
Thanks guys! Great on the road show review! Finally it’s informative to hear your thoughts on not so great or be cautious games. Thanks for the insights.
Despite being a huge fan of Panzer, I still can appreciate your opinion about its sibling MBT. It's not so much the thumb up or the thumb down. It's the "Why?". And you always have a provocative "why."
Sorry I missed you guys at WBC this year (was only there briefly to see Greg S). I love EA: Kharkov, BUT solo. I really like the chit pull system for combat myself.
I played Tank Duel about a year before it was published, at a GMT open-house event. I felt much like you do, different but not exciting. On the other hand, my son, who played on my team, really enjoyed it. Different strokes for different folks... EAK is a very good, solitaire game, perhaps the best solitaire system of all such games that I own, but yes as a 2-player game it is a meh experience. I'd love to see Butterfield come up with an alternative combat system for the games of that series. The rest of the games you mentioned failed to sell themselves to me, based on their product descriptions from their publishers and/or BGG entries.
Prices are all over the place right now. Over at MMP they want $164 for the new ASL module (with two countersheets, and four maps). GMT still gives you a lot for your money, though. Compass can be hot and cold.
I'm surprised you were disappointed by Tank Duel after what felt like a pretty positive review of it. I enjoyed it enough to seek out the expansions, but I did find there was a bit of a learning curve for what ended up being a pretty random team deathmatch.
Tank Duel is a good war game, perhaps as other people mentioned, not a strategic war game because of the random element. Fun fact, I ordered the Tank Duel expansion pack for a really good price from an online store and got a big pack full of tank/weapon cards for the Panzer games and thought, well that is also fine by me as I have all the Panzer games.
And about Jim Day... although I like MBT, I have read several of his replies on BGG, and let's just say that if modesty were currency, he'd be bankrupt.
About the feeling of having "no choice". I have something similar when playing Hapsburg Eclipse. Theoretically I have usually 1 to 2 actions per turn to perform, but most of those depend on a single die roll with (usually) somewhere between 33%-50% chance of success. I find it extremely discouraging to have so little decisions to make with most of them being undone by arbitrarily set high difficulty of rolls. I just feel like the game is there to generate a random story of AH colapse with my cosmetic input.
I'm just here to hear Grant sigh. It's kind of the perfect review. As a viewer, I don't need any more details. Grant's sigh says it all. And it is so to the point.
You guys are spot-on with MBT/Panzer... when one side has initiative and fires first, with all results non-simultaneous with the other sides fire, you have wrecked the original Panzer/'88'/Armor system by Yaquinto all for streamlined play and avoiding individual pre-plotted orders because todays wargamers are too lazy and in too much of a hurry. That's why my original Yaquinto series will never be sold by myself.
The skill in Panzer/MBT is manoeuvring and setting up your forces in such a way that IF the the other side wins initiative you're not wiped out and you still retain options to harm your opponent. I find it rewards correct tactics and use of terrain. Just go blundering in and you're relying solely on a die roll.
Perhaps you're correct. And I respect your opinion. Regardless, it is a manipulation of what would otherwise be a real-time event. And that does not wash with me.@@Jackdaw5
Ha! Dawn of Battle was the first wargame I only played once. My opponent and I agreed that we would never play it again. We had no problem with the LI/MI etc. unit generalizations - it was the weird maneuvering and gameplay. High hopes bc Worthington games are usually excellent. Just weird, weird rules.
I'm a big fan of Panzer and play it on a regular basis. I own MBT but have not played it. With the exception of the tech added to MBT, it is identical to Panzer. The lopsided initiative system you pointed out is recognized as a problem. There is an optional rule where the players' forces are divided into smaller groups, usually platoon sized. Then you roll for initiative for a selected platoon. So, you no longer get to activate all of your units at once. There are also modifiers to the initiative roll as dictated by the individual scenario. Yes, turrets can turn. This is in the Optional Rules. It is unfortunate, but these two optional rules should have been placed in the core rules.
I haven't given up on Dawn of Battle yet. I got the expansion update today that includes terrain tiles. Hoping that gives the scenarios enough unique historical flavor to make them interesting.
I think putting out videos which give warnings to potential buyers is extremely useful. I largely agree with the choices I have played / looked at. Hitler's Reich is OK, the new rule book is much better however, all the player aids refer to the numbers used in the old rule book (the new rule book was completely re-ordered and re-numbered) so it is still horrible to parse. Tank Duel is a very over rated game - yes, like Combat Commander, you may not get the cards you need however, in CC you draw from your own deck and managing your hand is critical. Tank Duel draws from a group deck so players can be completely screwed - it can be fun at the right time but that certainly requires both beer and pretzels. EAK - not played but I looked into it and came out with the same conclusion - a much better solo game. A bit harsh including U-Boat based on your navigational abilities! Enjoy WBC and I hope you didn't get lost on the way with Alexander navigating......... 😁
@@Jackdaw5 both. Content creators will generally only be pretty positive so most games will have some positive comments as generally negative opinions are not detailed except for some super hyped games
Even as a fan of EA: Ardennes, I agree the chit-pull system is the weakest element, but I like the rest of the system enough, with its integration of cards and action selection, to look past it. LOL @ the MBT review. I let mine go. Panzer basically had the same issue. I agree, people get too caught up in detailed procedure, and lose sight of the game play. I think once people get invested in a complex set of rules there's no turning back for them because, by golly, they've learned that thing, so they're gonna play it!
i like the chit pull system. i only play it solo, i think if you play it 2P it takes a long time sitting doing nothing while the other player is attacking. but the chit pull system on tis own: i like it. otherwise you just roll a die and its over. now you try to make the conditions right: flank attack, armor, artillery,...... but i understand the critics for the 2P game.
"I think once people get invested in a complex set of rules there's no turning back for them because, by golly, they've learned that thing, so they're gonna play it!" Alternatively, they love the detailed, complex system and, by golly, they're gonna play it.
@@Jackdaw5 i only recently started playing wargames. before that i played 1page rulebook games. now playing these wargames: a whole other world opened to me. 1 of the advantages of playing enemy action kharkov: throw any rulebook to me now and i will understand it. The rules of this game are also universal for wargames. supply, movent allowance, rethreat, advance after combat.
@@enterprise9001 While it could be a beast if you go all-in, the ASL rules weight is not bad if you just stick to the starter kits. Plus, a battle doesn't hinge on a single roll.
I'm currently developing a CDG game about American politics. I would absolutely love to have you guys proof my rule book and look it over before I put it out there in the world. I really appreciate your depth of detail and have enjoyed watching all of your videos. It's always refreshing finding a channel where the people play the same games I do and can talk about them thoughtfully.
Enemy Action Kharkov on this list? I am stunned. A great game. I admit it is not a quick game and is best when you can set it up for a couple of weeks maybe. But a fabulous solo system.
Thanks for the video, gents. My most recent disappointing wargame: Compass Games' SCHNELL BOATS. I was pumped for a role-playing sim of German E-Boat operations in the English Channel... but the rule book proved to be an absolute DISASTER. Just terrible! Rendered the game virtually unplayable.
Broken games and incomplete rule books full of errors, the death bell for attracting new gamers to our hobby! I find this to be an unacceptable result of publishers grossly failing to do their job. No excuses, every game should have sufficient game testing and rules editing prior to publishing.
Do the developers have anyone play the game after simply reading the rules? Also, games that are so complicated, it takes a month to get it down and requires help from the author, etc. Your opponent has to go through all this, too. Good luck finding that person!
i disagree only on hitler's reich. for what it does and the fact that you can do it in an evening i still have love for that game, even if the rules were very poorly written and some swing of luck can really turn a battle from one side to another.
More critical reviews are greatly appreciated. My pet peeve is unclear rules, errata should be 4 typos in a 20 page rulebook, not two pages of clarifications.
Mine were "Panzerblitz: Hill of Death" and "Salerno", both from MMP. Both the only entry in a planned series. Salerno is a worse game, but also attempted to do more. HoD was just blah.
Iron, Blood, Snow, and Mud. It's an abstract strategic game on the East Front WWII, it's not out yet, but I got to demo a prototype in 2022 in the UK. It'll be from PHALANX
Man - unusual for you guys to go out on a limb and go to the dark side and become Sith Lords. Much gnashing of teeth and grinding of molars. But hey - this is just your opinion/feelings. It helps avoid pollyanna - where reviewers are always saying everything positive about a game (go out and buy it now!) type of channel. It's more down to earth and honest. Kinda refreshing.
Hitler's reich is one of the worst rulebooks I have seen, and the updated one still isn't great. Partly the system is to blame for it. If there was some streamlining done and the game would have been so much easier. It could be a great light game, but I really hate the specific offensives that add one and a half pages of rules, just to force the game into a historical direction. and really annoying small thing, like overlord gives you the option to land on a few beaches, but then there is the exception you can't go all the way to berlin in one go. In that case just restrict the beaches that allow that, instead of throwing more exception on the pile. Because as you hit on, if you aren't allowed to go for the killing blow, you are kind of set on a path, otherwise you'll instantly lose the territory because of the adjacency bonuses. I think the base idea and cardplay is still interesting, but it feels like a game that needed another development pass.
The fact that you have to give such a detailed disclaimer, which you absolutely do, by the way, for a wargaming audience, which you would think would be a little thicker skinned, is regrettable. For all of our occasional bluster, wargamers can be pretty touchy :).
Control freak. j/k. My old car was not reliable enough to take on 6 hours journeys (nor was it big enough for the mountains of stuff we pack, but I might do the next one.
Don’t worry, we shot a bunch of that too that you’ll be able to see in the WBC debrief later. Where we were on the highway at the time of this video wasn’t very inspiring to watch.
Zero Leader…looks fun but horrible rules. I hope to give it another try…maybe it was me🤷🏼♂️. Cataclysm…impossible to play correctly..so much squeezing and so little juice.
Nah, you're wrong. Panzer/MBT - the advanced game, not the basic - is the dog's bollox (British for very good), but it does help if you were born in the 1960s, were brought up on Panzer Blitz and studied at the School of 1/72 (or 1/300) Tabletop Wargaming. 🙂 Always interesting to hear alternative opinions on the games I value. By the way, you're still WRONG!! 🙂🙂
LOL, I know what dogs bollocks are! Glad you like the system though and can appreciate it. I do think you're right about age though, I'm only 35 and have a hard time connecting with all the 1985 cold war-gone-hot stuff.
"Free at Last" is one of the most disappointing games I've ever played because of a great theme ruined by the horrible rules, both as written and as play-tested. It didn't help that Dietz Foundation, the developer and the original developer were all feuding and abandoned it. Luckily a 3rd party has apparently "fixed" it, but unfortunately at a very steep price. A huge missed opportunity. Surprised you didn't mention "2040: An American Insurgency" , I bought it after seeing your tweet when you received it in June
This was the most INSULTING video to some superb game designers I ever saw… John Butterfield … REALLY ??? Rating games you did not even attempt to play decently (solo) like Enemy Action Ardennes, “10 minutes per combat phase” what a joke… or the Panzer/MBT system which is frankly superb in its advanced format. Really Incredible frankly. That game uses extensive probabilty charts of a D100 and you just put it in a sink hole on the internet without even bothering to read the initiative system in the advanced game mechanics. And … Grant … btw EVER imagined what those tank TURRETS could mean on that counter sheet ????? Imagine what this kind of pure trash talk based on not even playing by the advanced rules will do on the internet. You tell me the Panzer system was evaluated on the BASIC game ? , ? That is the same as telling you played the first 2 teaching scenarios of Atlantic Chase frankly …. Happy that that one did not make your list… 😜. At the same time promoting State of Siege games which count now about 300 in a dozen look a likes or “let’s have the next copycat of the old Avalon Hill B17 adventure games by rolling dice endlessly (Smith) game of which there are now a couple of thousands around and spit out per year. Stop posting when you did not even try games decently according to the rules and just promote games of designers you are friends with. What a joke this video is. Excuses not accepted either.
The wargame community needs more videos like these. All wargames can't be masterpieces and we need to normalise talking about how ridiculously expensive most of them are.
Fair point...then again that has to have something to do with the more expensive production and much smaller print runs and distribution abilities in comparison to all other boardgames in general right...? It can't be just greed by itself after all 😅
Grant’s sighs after the each game is mentioned is pretty classic as a commentary on the games
Haha omg so true!
Now that's gold, one just can't help noticing when it happens 😅
He does it every time, it's so funny
One of the many aspects of your channel that makes it so interesting is the evolution of your reviews of games. As the years go on, there's been even more forthrightness about how good a game is (or isn't). That has been very welcome, and in a hobby that is getting crowded and increasing hype-driven, further attests to the integrity and genuineness of your work. Many thanks indeed.
I do think that our capacity for candid speech has grown the longer the channel goes on as we've experienced significantly more games and systems, and as such are more confident in being able to publicly adjudicate what we do and don't enjoy.
I like the fact that you share good/bad of games you play/review. Maintains credibility. Great channel
My Hobby used to be buying board games then being unable to figure out how to play them or not enjoying playing them. Thinking about it I still do that!
This guy wargames.
I think “Alexander and Grant on the road” is a good name for a board game…
No one can love every game... even you two 😂. Keep up the great videos.
You guys are a class act. Spending time on what’s good while there’s so many games out there to enjoy and play is key, especially in a hobby that demands such a big chunk of our time to be enjoyable. Thanks for the years of reviews, you’ve steered me toward some very good games.
Good video concept. Good video (even if I had to go and lie down when you said you didn't like MBT). :D
The beauty of non-computer gaming is that modding (house rules and home brew) is so much easier. If you have a niche interest you'll be happy to take an unsatisfactory game and fix it.
Dang, I was looking for you guys there!
I played a lot of John Company and Here I Stand at WBC and was definitely NOT disappointed in those.
More gaming "review" channels need to have the balls to put out videos like this.
Grant, I hope you are feeling better! Good to see you guys last week (if only briefly)
Tank Duel is a huge hit with our wargaming group here in the Philippines. And I understand the frustrations you have with Hitler's Reich. I played it in 2019 WBC and made the semifinals
U-Boat is truly quite a unique game and, while the rules seem complex, it is not as tricky as it first appears to be. Once it all clicks, including the navigation, the rules fade into the background and the real challenge comes in the form of player cooperation and action coordination under periods of intense pressure and limited resources to spare. It is a simulation game, though not in its rules complexity but rather in its difficulty of submarine warfare tactics when your mission is to hunt down the enemy targets when you are often the prey yourself. Certainly happy to teach the game if we ever get a chance to meet in person, perhaps at UK Games Expo if we both attend next year (based in the UK). But definitely don't give up yet on the game - it is a keeper IMHO. As an additional bonus, the designers are currently working on adding further in-game features to the app, based on player feedback we have been giving since its release. I am in no way related to the game, by the way. So this is purely based on my player experience as an owner of the game.
Agreed the game it's not difficult to understand but it's difficult to play well at least for me, but have to say have really good stories always end at the bottom of the sea but have great laugh at the end
Agree on Enemy Action Kharkov, Being a solo player, I only play solo so I have no use for the 2 player mode but paid the price for it literally, over $120!..But in the solo mode as is most J.B games, it's outstanding. looking forward to your report at WBC
I really appreciate your willingness to give your honest opinion on games in a public forum. I agree that it is important to criticize as well as praise games, especially when you play so many different games. (By the way, we still disagree on 2 player EA:K.😀 even though I agreed with you on every other game you mentioned.)
Where's Grant's blanket? I hope he doesn't catch a chill :)
Looks like the camera is strategically placed to ovoid showing it. Kinda disappointing, really.
Dawn of Empire made us nuts! We eventually house ruled it into a playable game, but one day of our life is more than it deserves.
Tank Duel is a big hit with my non-wargaming father and brother. I think I'd prefer to play something more strategic, but they love the unpredictability and it's always fun when a tank explodes.
I can understand your frustration with MBT because I had that same exact reaction the first time I played it. It's hard to see what you can do to avoid getting killed whatever you do, and the main culprit in my book is that the first scenario basically sucks. There are just too many tanks in there, and too few places where you can hide, so half of the scenario is just rolling dice and see how many tanks you can brew. It gets better in the second half of the scenario however, as killed tanks create cover opportunities and less tanks around means you have meaningful ways to navigate the map.
The advanced rules are mandatory. I don't know why they even bothered creating a basic system when it takes away everything that makes the game truly interesting. They look long, and they are, but they are very much verbose and if you stick to tanks you can easily move from basic to advanced system by just following the rules as you play. So, yeah, just give it a try.
If MBT is anything like Panzer I really also wish they would get rid of the basic game, and consolidate the advanced, basic and some optional rules into a concise rule set; at least the basic and advance rules. When I get back into this system (Panzer), I will have to reread the basic rules just to set a context for the advance rules. Although I have only played with the advance++ rules, the basic game seems so dry in comparison. I believe MBT, given its heritage, suffers from the same phenomenon. These games are tank miniature rules for cardboard with added scale, and simplified versions just loose the rich tapestry provided by the complete rule set. My 2 cents anyway. 😊
Some hilarious commentary guys. Keep up the good work.
Great stuff as usual. Looking forward to the next one.
You guys disliked some games that I like but amazingly my games and I didn't burst into flames. Turns out I can still enjoy those games and I don't have to throw a tantrum online. So weird! (Great video, gents)
"Games, Games. Here’s some games. Games that want to get out, ha. See? More games. Games, they vegetize you. See? Bah! If you play the games you’re voluntarily taking a tranquilizer..."
Brad Pitt, in 12 Monkeys, 1995
One of the best videos I have seen. They way you exampled why you did not like the games and that someone else might like it was very nice and I wish that other reviewers would also just do a review like this. Putting together a list of games that you played and did not like and why yuu did and why someone else might like the game. Thanks again for a great viedeo.
Thanks for the candid feedback. Not every game can be great and appreciate your willingness to share your honesty.
Always enjoy the road trip conversations, some of the facial expressions are classic. On the current subject unconvinced on tank duel, I like MBT, problem is sat next to Panzer on the shelf, I would like Enemy Action: Kharkov, as a solo, but price is ridiculous £140 ($180) includes p&p. This might upset a few, but I found Men of Iron Tri-pack, dull as dishwater, just sits on the shelf gathering dust.
You are allowed to not like MoI.. but.. I also want to fight about it! haha
I'll comment on just two games from your car trip to WBC
1. Tank Duel. I agree it is "meh" (my words, not yours). It has some fun aspects (Up Front for armor), but lacks the depth of a game that will hold my attention. Beer-and-Pretzels with a gang of 6 or 8? I am in for sure! Otherwise I'll play as a filler option one vs. one.
2. MBT. I have run most of the WBC/Avalon tournaments since ~1993, including the last four at WBC. As someone commented above, there are those who come to WBC solely for the tournament. I've seen the differences in Avalon Hiil's and GMT' versions. Both systems have pros and cons. IMO, you are correct that the initiative (rules-as-written) can make-or-break a game. Veteran players agree, so we use the Optional staggered-initiative rule (or other balancing rules) for the tournament. And yes, there are modifiers on the initiative rolls in the advanced and optional rules.
I believe your description of turret rules is incorrect. the basic game (nobody plays that to my knowledge) applies a modifier for fire outside of the 60-degree arc of the front of a vehicle, but does not preclude it. The tournament uses the Optional Turret rules along with the Advanced Rules. I was surprised when the GMT version made turrets optional.
Yes, getting through the advanced, and some optional rules is tough for sure. But it's a rich system that is a lot of fun for someone willing to plow through deep rules. Jim Day has been very kind to the system's fans by sponsoring this niche tournament, so kudos to him for his efforts.
Thanks for your reviews!
Rob
Way to rock the Ramones tee Alex!
I hope you make this an annual event. “Most disappointing games of the year.” The “Grant Sighs” series.
Honestly it’d be pretty washout if we did it annually. We try to be (and are reasonably successful at being) judicious on our choices. This is like 4-5 years of duds.
The only one of these I have played is Enemy Action Kharkov. It is actually my favorite solo wargame by far. I've never played it as a two player game, but I can see how it could be tedious there.
Also I know a few people who were at WBC this just to play in the MBT tournament :)
A friend of mine introduced me to Hitler's Reich recently. ... it is actually exactly that: A nice little semi-abstract WWII game.
Of course... being a WiF player, I really prefer a less abstract game if I play strategic WWII (*) ... but it's a good game, - if you just have the most recent rules.
*: Not USE, however.
great video guys, please do more of these!
Thanks guys! Great on the road show review! Finally it’s informative to hear your thoughts on not so great or be cautious games. Thanks for the insights.
Despite being a huge fan of Panzer, I still can appreciate your opinion about its sibling MBT. It's not so much the thumb up or the thumb down. It's the "Why?". And you always have a provocative "why."
Sorry I missed you guys at WBC this year (was only there briefly to see Greg S). I love EA: Kharkov, BUT solo. I really like the chit pull system for combat myself.
I played Tank Duel about a year before it was published, at a GMT open-house event. I felt much like you do, different but not exciting. On the other hand, my son, who played on my team, really enjoyed it. Different strokes for different folks...
EAK is a very good, solitaire game, perhaps the best solitaire system of all such games that I own, but yes as a 2-player game it is a meh experience. I'd love to see Butterfield come up with an alternative combat system for the games of that series.
The rest of the games you mentioned failed to sell themselves to me, based on their product descriptions from their publishers and/or BGG entries.
Prices are all over the place right now. Over at MMP they want $164 for the new ASL module (with two countersheets, and four maps). GMT still gives you a lot for your money, though. Compass can be hot and cold.
Agreed, with the caveat that MMP are much more expensive because they do their production here in the USA.
good stuff guys... talking about the bad games isn't as hard as you make it seam.... but your getting there....
I'm surprised you were disappointed by Tank Duel after what felt like a pretty positive review of it. I enjoyed it enough to seek out the expansions, but I did find there was a bit of a learning curve for what ended up being a pretty random team deathmatch.
I think we enjoyed it at first but after several plays it just didn’t necessarily do it for us any longer.
Tank Duel is a good war game, perhaps as other people mentioned, not a strategic war game because of the random element. Fun fact, I ordered the Tank Duel expansion pack for a really good price from an online store and got a big pack full of tank/weapon cards for the Panzer games and thought, well that is also fine by me as I have all the Panzer games.
And about Jim Day... although I like MBT, I have read several of his replies on BGG, and let's just say that if modesty were currency, he'd be bankrupt.
London Game Fest... 😂😂😂
About the feeling of having "no choice". I have something similar when playing Hapsburg Eclipse. Theoretically I have usually 1 to 2 actions per turn to perform, but most of those depend on a single die roll with (usually) somewhere between 33%-50% chance of success. I find it extremely discouraging to have so little decisions to make with most of them being undone by arbitrarily set high difficulty of rolls.
I just feel like the game is there to generate a random story of AH colapse with my cosmetic input.
250 miles divided by 3 = speeding ticket 😁
They always let us go with a warning when we start lecturing them about turn taking mechanics and supply points!
@@ThePlayersAid The cops usually let me go if I roll an 11 on a D10.
I think Tank Duel fills the light fun with multiple players while having beers space.
I'm just here to hear Grant sigh. It's kind of the perfect review. As a viewer, I don't need any more details. Grant's sigh says it all. And it is so to the point.
The MBT game sounds like the best quick play game ever, roll a 10 sided die and best rolls wins. Is there a thermal nuclear war follow up game ?
You guys are spot-on with MBT/Panzer... when one side has initiative and fires first, with all results non-simultaneous with the other sides fire, you have wrecked the original Panzer/'88'/Armor system by Yaquinto all for streamlined play and avoiding individual pre-plotted orders because todays wargamers are too lazy and in too much of a hurry. That's why my original Yaquinto series will never be sold by myself.
The skill in Panzer/MBT is manoeuvring and setting up your forces in such a way that IF the the other side wins initiative you're not wiped out and you still retain options to harm your opponent. I find it rewards correct tactics and use of terrain. Just go blundering in and you're relying solely on a die roll.
Perhaps you're correct. And I respect your opinion. Regardless, it is a manipulation of what would otherwise be a real-time event. And that does not wash with me.@@Jackdaw5
Tank duel is fun
Ha! Dawn of Battle was the first wargame I only played once. My opponent and I agreed that we would never play it again. We had no problem with the LI/MI etc. unit generalizations - it was the weird maneuvering and gameplay. High hopes bc Worthington games are usually excellent. Just weird, weird rules.
Where is the jacket??? I'm worried grant is gonna catch a cold...
I'm a big fan of Panzer and play it on a regular basis. I own MBT but have not played it. With the exception of the tech added to MBT, it is identical to Panzer.
The lopsided initiative system you pointed out is recognized as a problem. There is an optional rule where the players' forces are divided into smaller groups, usually platoon sized. Then you roll for initiative for a selected platoon. So, you no longer get to activate all of your units at once. There are also modifiers to the initiative roll as dictated by the individual scenario.
Yes, turrets can turn. This is in the Optional Rules.
It is unfortunate, but these two optional rules should have been placed in the core rules.
In MBT the tanks are much more lethal, and that seems to hurt the game play somewhat, in contrast to Panzer.
Armour is better too, though. Also, the battle ranges on the map do reflect reality.
@@Jackdaw5the ranges reflect real capabilities, but almost certainly not real battle conditions, unless you’re in the desert or the Russian steppe
you guys missed the boat by not playing Panzer, related to MBT.
Doesn’t mean we won’t in the future. We have so much we want to play but with limited time. Maybe one day!
@@ThePlayersAid good position to be in…lots of good things to play.
Those sighs! 🤣
I haven't given up on Dawn of Battle yet. I got the expansion update today that includes terrain tiles. Hoping that gives the scenarios enough unique historical flavor to make them interesting.
I think putting out videos which give warnings to potential buyers is extremely useful. I largely agree with the choices I have played / looked at. Hitler's Reich is OK, the new rule book is much better however, all the player aids refer to the numbers used in the old rule book (the new rule book was completely re-ordered and re-numbered) so it is still horrible to parse. Tank Duel is a very over rated game - yes, like Combat Commander, you may not get the cards you need however, in CC you draw from your own deck and managing your hand is critical. Tank Duel draws from a group deck so players can be completely screwed - it can be fun at the right time but that certainly requires both beer and pretzels. EAK - not played but I looked into it and came out with the same conclusion - a much better solo game. A bit harsh including U-Boat based on your navigational abilities! Enjoy WBC and I hope you didn't get lost on the way with Alexander navigating......... 😁
They're not 'warnings to potential buyers' , just opinions -- surely?
@@Jackdaw5 both. Content creators will generally only be pretty positive so most games will have some positive comments as generally negative opinions are not detailed except for some super hyped games
Thank god someone isn't a shill.
Even as a fan of EA: Ardennes, I agree the chit-pull system is the weakest element, but I like the rest of the system enough, with its integration of cards and action selection, to look past it.
LOL @ the MBT review. I let mine go. Panzer basically had the same issue. I agree, people get too caught up in detailed procedure, and lose sight of the game play. I think once people get invested in a complex set of rules there's no turning back for them because, by golly, they've learned that thing, so they're gonna play it!
i like the chit pull system. i only play it solo, i think if you play it 2P it takes a long time sitting doing nothing while the other player is attacking. but the chit pull system on tis own: i like it. otherwise you just roll a die and its over. now you try to make the conditions right: flank attack, armor, artillery,...... but i understand the critics for the 2P game.
The ASL Effect, in other words.
"I think once people get invested in a complex set of rules there's no turning back for them because, by golly, they've learned that thing, so they're gonna play it!" Alternatively, they love the detailed, complex system and, by golly, they're gonna play it.
@@Jackdaw5 i only recently started playing wargames. before that i played 1page rulebook games. now playing these wargames: a whole other world opened to me. 1 of the advantages of playing enemy action kharkov: throw any rulebook to me now and i will understand it. The rules of this game are also universal for wargames. supply, movent allowance, rethreat, advance after combat.
@@enterprise9001 While it could be a beast if you go all-in, the ASL rules weight is not bad if you just stick to the starter kits. Plus, a battle doesn't hinge on a single roll.
I'm currently developing a CDG game about American politics. I would absolutely love to have you guys proof my rule book and look it over before I put it out there in the world. I really appreciate your depth of detail and have enjoyed watching all of your videos. It's always refreshing finding a channel where the people play the same games I do and can talk about them thoughtfully.
Thank you!
thank you not a waste of driving time
Enemy Action Kharkov on this list? I am stunned. A great game. I admit it is not a quick game and is best when you can set it up for a couple of weeks maybe. But a fabulous solo system.
that's exactly what they said.
Alexander, you're on a 6 hour car ride, and you're wearing a Ramones t-shirt. Can we assume you wanna be sedated?
Great video as always.
Do you two disagree on any games? Have enough disagreements to talk about them on another road trip? 😜
Thanks for the video, gents. My most recent disappointing wargame: Compass Games' SCHNELL BOATS. I was pumped for a role-playing sim of German E-Boat operations in the English Channel... but the rule book proved to be an absolute DISASTER. Just terrible! Rendered the game virtually unplayable.
Yeah…I actually returned my copy I bought
Broken games and incomplete rule books full of errors, the death bell for attracting new gamers to our hobby! I find this to be an unacceptable result of publishers grossly failing to do their job. No excuses, every game should have sufficient game testing and rules editing prior to publishing.
Do the developers have anyone play the game after simply reading the rules? Also, games that are so complicated, it takes a month to get it down and requires help from the author, etc. Your opponent has to go through all this, too. Good luck finding that person!
i disagree only on hitler's reich. for what it does and the fact that you can do it in an evening i still have love for that game, even if the rules were very poorly written and some swing of luck can really turn a battle from one side to another.
More critical reviews are greatly appreciated. My pet peeve is unclear rules, errata should be 4 typos in a 20 page rulebook, not two pages of clarifications.
Mine were "Panzerblitz: Hill of Death" and "Salerno", both from MMP. Both the only entry in a planned series. Salerno is a worse game, but also attempted to do more. HoD was just blah.
I guess we were all watching it from the future? :)
😇
Pleeeease do a video on which of the COIN series games are best at just 2 players, and which are not worth playing at 2. Thanks, love your channel!
Spoiler alert: the British Way.
@@mattshirley765 Yeeeahhhh.. The British Way. Liberty or Death is also a good 2 player experience but also much more on the complex end of the scale.
What is the name of the board game at 34.03? Thanks in advance for the answer
Iron, Blood, Snow, and Mud. It's an abstract strategic game on the East Front WWII, it's not out yet, but I got to demo a prototype in 2022 in the UK. It'll be from PHALANX
@@ThePlayersAidthe other game you speak about some seconds before, brad Walden? I can't understand what is the name
@@pierluigiross8895 Bretwalda, from PHALANX
I rather liked Firefly Misbehavin’. Tremendous tension between players who “bank” their cards and playing them to attack each other.
Car!!!
Say what you see....
Man - unusual for you guys to go out on a limb and go to the dark side and become Sith Lords. Much gnashing of teeth and grinding of molars. But hey - this is just your opinion/feelings. It helps avoid pollyanna - where reviewers are always saying everything positive about a game (go out and buy it now!) type of channel. It's more down to earth and honest. Kinda refreshing.
No music!
I am curious, what car are you driving?
Maybe your choice in cars is as good as games. :)
a 2021 Ford Escape.
Hitler's reich is one of the worst rulebooks I have seen, and the updated one still isn't great. Partly the system is to blame for it.
If there was some streamlining done and the game would have been so much easier. It could be a great light game, but I really hate the specific offensives that add one and a half pages of rules, just to force the game into a historical direction.
and really annoying small thing, like overlord gives you the option to land on a few beaches, but then there is the exception you can't go all the way to berlin in one go. In that case just restrict the beaches that allow that, instead of throwing more exception on the pile. Because as you hit on, if you aren't allowed to go for the killing blow, you are kind of set on a path, otherwise you'll instantly lose the territory because of the adjacency bonuses.
I think the base idea and cardplay is still interesting, but it feels like a game that needed another development pass.
thanks for the road talk! You have a recommendation you like for tank warfare?
Not really, most are unconvincing, or have mega rules up take. Combined arms in Conflict of Heroes series is good fun, though.
I'm just at the start of the video, but .. 3hours about "Wargames We Did Not Enjoy" ... that can't be true!!
It isn't, check the play time.😊🇬🇧
@@davidbarr9343 Ah, yes ... I got the 3 hours from the "posted 3h" ago ... my bad!
The fact that you have to give such a detailed disclaimer, which you absolutely do, by the way, for a wargaming audience, which you would think would be a little thicker skinned, is regrettable. For all of our occasional bluster, wargamers can be pretty touchy :).
YT can be wild sometimes, hahaha.
have an opinion on the internet at your own risk!
@@DonkeyPopsicle You are so right! Better to be a fence sitter.😊
They don't call 'em "grognards" for nothing.
It's the most soft skinned niche of the gaming world ;)
How come Grant is always doing the driving?
Control freak. j/k. My old car was not reliable enough to take on 6 hours journeys (nor was it big enough for the mountains of stuff we pack, but I might do the next one.
If you didn't like MBT, have you tried any of the Panzer series? I feel that if you didn't like MBT, Panzer seems to be much of the same.
We have not tried Panzer. No prizes for guessing why.
Good discussion guys, but next time could you please point the camera outside so we can see the scenery for us non UIS viewers.
Don’t worry, we shot a bunch of that too that you’ll be able to see in the WBC debrief later. Where we were on the highway at the time of this video wasn’t very inspiring to watch.
Well u can play the Grizzled,,,, 4 Ur guns of August 23 edition ,plz,
We played that years ago, it’s good, but not what our game group typically enjoyed at the time.
Unfortunately, I also backed Invasions. Way too ambitious for a board game. It should have been implemented as a computer game.
Zero Leader…looks fun but horrible rules. I hope to give it another try…maybe it was me🤷🏼♂️. Cataclysm…impossible to play correctly..so much squeezing and so little juice.
CATACLYSM. You are 100% correct. Good initial impressions, but after a few plays I moved it on.
Nah, you're wrong. Panzer/MBT - the advanced game, not the basic - is the dog's bollox (British for very good), but it does help if you were born in the 1960s, were brought up on Panzer Blitz and studied at the School of 1/72 (or 1/300) Tabletop Wargaming. 🙂 Always interesting to hear alternative opinions on the games I value. By the way, you're still WRONG!! 🙂🙂
LOL, I know what dogs bollocks are! Glad you like the system though and can appreciate it. I do think you're right about age though, I'm only 35 and have a hard time connecting with all the 1985 cold war-gone-hot stuff.
"Free at Last" is one of the most disappointing games I've ever played because of a great theme ruined by the horrible rules, both as written and as play-tested. It didn't help that Dietz Foundation, the developer and the original developer were all feuding and abandoned it. Luckily a 3rd party has apparently "fixed" it, but unfortunately at a very steep price. A huge missed opportunity. Surprised you didn't mention "2040: An American Insurgency" , I bought it after seeing your tweet when you received it in June
Have you played Jim Dunnigan's Minutemen?
2040, has it's own special video!
@@malexander4094 Thanks for the suggestion!! I just found it on Vassal and Table Top Simulator!!
Feel free to sell EAK to me, nice video
You 2 are cool as h@#$.
Most of worthington games are underwhelming
This was the most INSULTING video to some superb game designers I ever saw… John Butterfield … REALLY ???
Rating games you did not even attempt to play decently (solo) like Enemy Action Ardennes, “10 minutes per combat phase” what a joke… or the Panzer/MBT system which is frankly superb in its advanced format. Really Incredible frankly.
That game uses extensive probabilty charts of a D100 and you just put it in a sink hole on the internet without even bothering to read the initiative system in the advanced game mechanics. And … Grant … btw EVER imagined what those tank TURRETS could mean on that counter sheet ?????
Imagine what this kind of pure trash talk based on not even playing by the advanced rules will do on the internet.
You tell me the Panzer system was evaluated on the BASIC game ? , ? That is the same as telling you played the first 2 teaching scenarios of Atlantic Chase frankly …. Happy that that one did not make your list… 😜.
At the same time promoting State of Siege games which count now about 300 in a dozen look a likes or “let’s have the next copycat of the old Avalon Hill B17 adventure games by rolling dice endlessly (Smith) game of which there are now a couple of thousands around and spit out per year.
Stop posting when you did not even try games decently according to the rules and just promote games of designers you are friends with.
What a joke this video is.
Excuses not accepted either.
Love this energy, and really appreciate the effort! [=
@@ThePlayersAidimagine getting insulted over someone’s opinion of a game. Lololol. Great video, guys! I’d like some more of these, please
@@ThePlayersAid lol indeed