Hi guys! If You want / need some additional information about these filaments - feel free to contact me. I am that "Pavel" who provided these samples to Igor. And Igor - thank You 1000 times for doing the tests and sharing with the community! You are our hero! :D As many of us are printing and creating, but dont have time to run YT channel about this :( Cause its regular full time job ... Overall impression about these materials - extremely expensive, not mechanically as good as one would think. But they have extremely high temperature resistances and also chemical resistances (hydraulic oils, brake fluids). Real world usage (automotive prototype / sample / equipment development) of such materials is like 1% of our prints. 70% of our prints are PETG / ASA and those 29% would be PC, PA and TPU.
Great video!! My attempt printing PEI 1010 was not successful, always warped but the information in this video has shown me I'm printing way to fast. Thank you Igor
Wow, these materials look pretty cool. The high temperature resistance is nice for certain prototype applications. Big thanks to MTF and your mystery printer.
@@riba2233 The HT90 can select whether to recirculate air from the chamber to cool the head with or use external air so I don't think water cooling is necessary.
30C it's not a big difference to cause a major increment in mechanical properties. It may reduce the warping, therefore improving dimensional stability. Amorphous polymers do not tend to benefit much in mechanical enhancement( tensile modulus and strength) from annealing. instead they relax , and become tougher
Nowhere else do we get such a comprehensive testing of 3D printing filaments. Thanks a lot to you and Pavel! Very interesting to see, how those high end materials perform. I am bit dissapointed with the impact resistence though.
You’re videos are so valuable thank you for your work these videos give me great insight on material properties that i’d need to test for myself if not for these videos
Cool comparison of advanced materials. There are not so many comparison of this kind. thanks. By the way you are right, for accuracy, the annealing shrinkage in xy and z need to be calibrated and compensated before printing.
Great test of these very specific materials, i wish you would have continued the temperature test to see where all of them would fail. Much cred to Pavel for supplying the parts!
I was expecting better performance honestly... But the chemical resistance and the reduced flamibility and toxicity of some of these filaments is a real strong point for the right applications.
Interesting results. It's surprising to me that overall, none of the materials really performed substantially better (and frequently quite a lot worse) than some of the best options you tested that can be printed on standard printers -- outside of heat resistance of course (and perhaps also other aspects that weren't tested like UV or chemical resistance).
Yeah, I've been test some of these myself and really the Heat Resistance, UV resistance, and chemical resistance are the biggest factors. I have found some of the cheap resins for resin printing can handle 300c and after the initial post cure they survived 3 hours under a 300w UV lamp. Honestly the lamp needed to be actively cooled or it would have burned up.
2 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา
@@Guardian_Ariasin regards to resin have you found anything that's got good impact resistance and rigidity? I've had a few mixes that came out decent.
Thanks to Igor and Pavel! I was surprised to see the relatively low mechanical properties of these materials. If you don`t need the heat or chemical resistance, you might as well use more common materials. Layer adhesion tests show very low values. PPS at 6,5MPa is shockingly bad. The best is PPSU at 30.9MPa which is nothing spectacular. PET-CF from Siraya was 28.1MPa tested by Igor a few weeks ago. Nylon-CF by YXPolyer was 33.9MPa, better than all these expensive filaments.
I have used a bunch of different 3DXTech "engineering grade" filaments, and have often been disappointed to find the materials do not meet advertised specifications, or have some other odd sort of defect. Ultimately we had to switch away from them as a vendor, because they offered incredibly poor support, and we couldn't consistently deliver quality products to our customers with their varying quality. None of them were these 400c+ materials however.
@@riba2233 Their CF nylon is atrocious. The Gen3 stuff is probably one of the worst CF nylon filaments ive ever used. Terrible abrasion resistance, crazy bad creep resistance and overall poor strength. I only print nylon and this stuff ain't it chief
Pavel Champ. I am actually suprised by not that great strength for some of this materials. I assumed everything will be completely crazy strong for that price and hardware requirements, but totally not the case huh ?
Yeah - our reason to buy these materials was to have some highly chemically and temperature resistant materials. But I also hoped for a bit more of mechanical strength. Especially when materials like PEI are often advertised as "similar to aluminium" ... from my experience - not really true :D
@@nufnuf816I've never seen PEI being compared to aluminum. PPAs or "HTN" is sometimes called "black aluminum", as it can reach similar strength in the XY plane as weaker alloys of aluminum. High performance plastics like PEI are reserved for niche applications that call for the specific blend of properties, but they aren't magic
Excellent vide0, hopefully this one will get a lot of views. Btw that pekk was A variant or amorphous, not sure how much annealing benefits it. It would be interesting to test he pekk-c variant.
I printed more samples than just those Igor got - and without annealing - i was able to snap those PEKK samples just between fingers. After annealing - they were really hard to snap and cracked across more layers = were fully crystalized. Especially this PEKK CF material is from my experience absolutely useless without annealing.
PEKK A crystallizes a fair but slower than PEKK C, but in the end, it reaches almost the same crystallinity. The main benefit of the slower crystallization rate is much decreased warping during printing. Annealing an entire part post-print allows it to shrink evenly, instead of shrinking layer by layer
According to the recommended temps, one can potentially print PSU, PPS, and both PEI with a stock K2 Plus printer. Although Creality only advertises 350c nozzles, it's actually capped at 380c as for the chamber, it's capped at 80c Nozzle makes it to 380 no problem, I was not brave enough to let the chamber go past 70c because the MCUs where hitting 60c Edit: Ive been priting PPS-CF for the past week in my K2 at actual printing speeds of 200mm/s
@riba2233 bed temp is good per specs all the way up to 130, and yeah the MCUs where not happy but for a decade people have compensated for low chamber temps by just printing slower.
@3dPrintingMillennial well if it makes you feel better the software side of the printer is pretty rough, but because its actually open source I have been able to rewrite most of the issues I've had with the software.
I struggle with parts in a dental cleaning machine. 134c, fluids and unknown environment pressure. Even PPA-CF will deform with slight pressure applied in the machine. Very frustrating.
@@Todestelzer same hotend in x1e goes up to 320 which is enough for pps. It could probably do more, it has a brass heat block just the thermistor is a bottleneck, gets imprecise near 350
@@riba2233 I will keep it in mind. But it’s not available to buy right now. Seems like out of stock till march. I will use PPA-CF and CNC Aluminum part where I need the extra strength for now.
My wild assumption has to be that the ability for industrial settings to make parts in metal using subtractive manufacturing that are wildly better than 3d printing or plastic in general is why we really don't see much innovation at this tip of the spear context. There's no need to push the boundaries with crazy materials when you can use regular materials and get multiple orders of magnitude better strength for much, much cheaper and easier. Heat resistance is a curious one, and I wonder whether resin is where we'll see the innovation happening there for small-scale printing. Heat resistance out of FDM requires a much hotter nozzle and bed, but resin doesn't have that bottleneck.
Some of the cheap resins are already rather heat resistant all the way up to 300c BUT they are extremely brittle compared to PEI and the weight is also an issue. Aerospace companies have been replacing fiberglass ducting with PEI 3D printed because the weight is a slight improvement but most importantly a custom shaped duct is cheaper to produce when printed than manufactured. Also in use cases like this metal print is not even on the table due to weight.
I missed some "normal" tests of these materials on TH-cam - and Igor has one great thing - and its uniformity. I really dont know of any more channels (Stefan has some, but not much) with such consistent approach to testing. In this case - even if the way of measurement might have some tolerances - they will be same throughout all tests of all materials. And for these reasons I knew, that I will have some numbers for "high tech" materials compared to "normal" materials. And as we all saw - they are great at high temp, they have good chemical resistance (thats what we discovered in our work) - but thats it. Mechanically - nothing special. So I dont regret money for materials (there were some failures, so I dont even want to calculate how much did it cost to print them :D ) - because in return, the community got precious data!
Hi guys! If You want / need some additional information about these filaments - feel free to contact me. I am that "Pavel" who provided these samples to Igor.
And Igor - thank You 1000 times for doing the tests and sharing with the community! You are our hero! :D As many of us are printing and creating, but dont have time to run YT channel about this :( Cause its regular full time job ...
Overall impression about these materials - extremely expensive, not mechanically as good as one would think. But they have extremely high temperature resistances and also chemical resistances (hydraulic oils, brake fluids). Real world usage (automotive prototype / sample / equipment development) of such materials is like 1% of our prints. 70% of our prints are PETG / ASA and those 29% would be PC, PA and TPU.
@@nufnuf816 thank you for your service, this is too awesome!
Cheers mate!
good work
thanks pavel!
Thank you, Pavel
Pavel doing gods work by helping you out! What a champ.
Great video!! My attempt printing PEI 1010 was not successful, always warped but the information in this video has shown me I'm printing way to fast. Thank you Igor
Wow, these materials look pretty cool. The high temperature resistance is nice for certain prototype applications. Big thanks to MTF and your mystery printer.
I would be interested in what the difference in strength would be between filaments like ASA printed with chamber temperatures of 60C and 90C.
Exactly! And polycarbonate. But you probably need a printer with a water cooler head.
@@riba2233 The HT90 can select whether to recirculate air from the chamber to cool the head with or use external air so I don't think water cooling is necessary.
@evropapagan5551 ok that could work probably, if it doesn't bring much cool air in the chamber
30C it's not a big difference to cause a major increment in mechanical properties. It may reduce the warping, therefore improving dimensional stability. Amorphous polymers do not tend to benefit much in mechanical enhancement( tensile modulus and strength) from annealing. instead they relax , and become tougher
@@naminiyo1 it is for layer adhesion, there is enough difference in 15c from 45 go 60 already to be worth it.
Nowhere else do we get such a comprehensive testing of 3D printing filaments.
Thanks a lot to you and Pavel! Very interesting to see, how those high end materials perform.
I am bit dissapointed with the impact resistence though.
Good creep and temperature performance, but otherwise I was a little underwhelmed. Great job as always by Dr. Fun and also the viewer who sent them in
You’re videos are so valuable thank you for your work these videos give me great insight on material properties that i’d need to test for myself if not for these videos
Cool comparison of advanced materials. There are not so many comparison of this kind. thanks. By the way you are right, for accuracy, the annealing shrinkage in xy and z need to be calibrated and compensated before printing.
Great test of these very specific materials, i wish you would have continued the temperature test to see where all of them would fail. Much cred to Pavel for supplying the parts!
My oven don't go much higher than that temperature.
I was expecting better performance honestly... But the chemical resistance and the reduced flamibility and toxicity of some of these filaments is a real strong point for the right applications.
Thanks for You and Pavel! Hope they will send you the tullomer, looking fwd to that...
Tullomer: objects printed, test in progress..
Extremely surprised the tiny tip of the PEI 1010 drill bit was still in tact.
Interesting results. It's surprising to me that overall, none of the materials really performed substantially better (and frequently quite a lot worse) than some of the best options you tested that can be printed on standard printers -- outside of heat resistance of course (and perhaps also other aspects that weren't tested like UV or chemical resistance).
Yeah, I've been test some of these myself and really the Heat Resistance, UV resistance, and chemical resistance are the biggest factors.
I have found some of the cheap resins for resin printing can handle 300c and after the initial post cure they survived 3 hours under a 300w UV lamp. Honestly the lamp needed to be actively cooled or it would have burned up.
@@Guardian_Ariasin regards to resin have you found anything that's got good impact resistance and rigidity? I've had a few mixes that came out decent.
Thanks to Igor and Pavel! I was surprised to see the relatively low mechanical properties of these materials. If you don`t need the heat or chemical resistance, you might as well use more common materials. Layer adhesion tests show very low values. PPS at 6,5MPa is shockingly bad. The best is PPSU at 30.9MPa which is nothing spectacular. PET-CF from Siraya was 28.1MPa tested by Igor a few weeks ago. Nylon-CF by YXPolyer was 33.9MPa, better than all these expensive filaments.
Awesome work
Hi Igor,
Fantastic video !
I'm really surprised by the layer adhesion, especially pps which is supposed to be excellent.
I have used a bunch of different 3DXTech "engineering grade" filaments, and have often been disappointed to find the materials do not meet advertised specifications, or have some other odd sort of defect. Ultimately we had to switch away from them as a vendor, because they offered incredibly poor support, and we couldn't consistently deliver quality products to our customers with their varying quality.
None of them were these 400c+ materials however.
@@whatfor5 interesting. What printer did you use?
@@riba2233 Their CF nylon is atrocious. The Gen3 stuff is probably one of the worst CF nylon filaments ive ever used. Terrible abrasion resistance, crazy bad creep resistance and overall poor strength. I only print nylon and this stuff ain't it chief
@@FrozenByFire3 wow that's shocking... What nylon did you have success with?
@@riba2233 spectrum pa6 low warp cf15s, Bambu PAHT-CF and qidi PPA-CF (PAHT-CF) are all very good with the Qidi stuff being my favorite overall
@@FrozenByFire3 nice, qidi also looked tempting to me, glad to hear it is good
Tak!
Thank you for your support!
Pavel Champ. I am actually suprised by not that great strength for some of this materials. I assumed everything will be completely crazy strong for that price and hardware requirements, but totally not the case huh ?
Yeah - our reason to buy these materials was to have some highly chemically and temperature resistant materials. But I also hoped for a bit more of mechanical strength. Especially when materials like PEI are often advertised as "similar to aluminium" ... from my experience - not really true :D
@@nufnuf816I've never seen PEI being compared to aluminum. PPAs or "HTN" is sometimes called "black aluminum", as it can reach similar strength in the XY plane as weaker alloys of aluminum. High performance plastics like PEI are reserved for niche applications that call for the specific blend of properties, but they aren't magic
Excellent vide0, hopefully this one will get a lot of views.
Btw that pekk was A variant or amorphous, not sure how much annealing benefits it. It would be interesting to test he pekk-c variant.
I printed more samples than just those Igor got - and without annealing - i was able to snap those PEKK samples just between fingers. After annealing - they were really hard to snap and cracked across more layers = were fully crystalized. Especially this PEKK CF material is from my experience absolutely useless without annealing.
@@nufnuf816 very interesting, thanks for the insight! I would still like to see what the differences are between A and C variants :)
PEKK A crystallizes a fair but slower than PEKK C, but in the end, it reaches almost the same crystallinity. The main benefit of the slower crystallization rate is much decreased warping during printing. Annealing an entire part post-print allows it to shrink evenly, instead of shrinking layer by layer
@@danieldeutschen makes sense, thanks for the insight!
According to the recommended temps, one can potentially print PSU, PPS, and both PEI with a stock K2 Plus printer. Although Creality only advertises 350c nozzles, it's actually capped at 380c as for the chamber, it's capped at 80c
Nozzle makes it to 380 no problem, I was not brave enough to let the chamber go past 70c because the MCUs where hitting 60c
Edit: Ive been priting PPS-CF for the past week in my K2 at actual printing speeds of 200mm/s
@@Guardian_Arias I doubt that printer would have good time at 80c chamber. You also need a higher bed temp
Wow this is a good advertisement for the K2. I'm a little skeptical to buy Creality. I was holding out for a Bambu HT.
@riba2233 bed temp is good per specs all the way up to 130, and yeah the MCUs where not happy but for a decade people have compensated for low chamber temps by just printing slower.
@3dPrintingMillennial well if it makes you feel better the software side of the printer is pretty rough, but because its actually open source I have been able to rewrite most of the issues I've had with the software.
I struggle with parts in a dental cleaning machine. 134c, fluids and unknown environment pressure.
Even PPA-CF will deform with slight pressure applied in the machine. Very frustrating.
try pps-cf
@ nozzle temp 310-340c. I could just raise the max temp on my Voron 2.4 but will a Bambu hotend be fine or fall apart? My X1C only goes up to 300c.
@@Todestelzer same hotend in x1e goes up to 320 which is enough for pps. It could probably do more, it has a brass heat block just the thermistor is a bottleneck, gets imprecise near 350
@@riba2233 I will keep it in mind. But it’s not available to buy right now. Seems like out of stock till march.
I will use PPA-CF and CNC Aluminum part where I need the extra strength for now.
@@Todestelzer you can also get it from qidi and bambu
Very interesting!
Is there PEI CF?
That would be a fun one.
No, only the PEKK was CF in this video.
@@freedomofmotion there is pei GF, very stiff and would be interesting yeah
@@MyTechFun I was asking if such a thing exists is all.
@@freedomofmotion it does
My wild assumption has to be that the ability for industrial settings to make parts in metal using subtractive manufacturing that are wildly better than 3d printing or plastic in general is why we really don't see much innovation at this tip of the spear context. There's no need to push the boundaries with crazy materials when you can use regular materials and get multiple orders of magnitude better strength for much, much cheaper and easier.
Heat resistance is a curious one, and I wonder whether resin is where we'll see the innovation happening there for small-scale printing. Heat resistance out of FDM requires a much hotter nozzle and bed, but resin doesn't have that bottleneck.
Some of the cheap resins are already rather heat resistant all the way up to 300c BUT they are extremely brittle compared to PEI and the weight is also an issue.
Aerospace companies have been replacing fiberglass ducting with PEI 3D printed because the weight is a slight improvement but most importantly a custom shaped duct is cheaper to produce when printed than manufactured. Also in use cases like this metal print is not even on the table due to weight.
Sunlu E2 review soon?
Yes. It's in the progress..
👍
so the total is €300+/kg in material and about €200 in electricity costs? :))
thank you for your sacrifice pavel!
I missed some "normal" tests of these materials on TH-cam - and Igor has one great thing - and its uniformity. I really dont know of any more channels (Stefan has some, but not much) with such consistent approach to testing. In this case - even if the way of measurement might have some tolerances - they will be same throughout all tests of all materials.
And for these reasons I knew, that I will have some numbers for "high tech" materials compared to "normal" materials. And as we all saw - they are great at high temp, they have good chemical resistance (thats what we discovered in our work) - but thats it. Mechanically - nothing special. So I dont regret money for materials (there were some failures, so I dont even want to calculate how much did it cost to print them :D ) - because in return, the community got precious data!
@@nufnuf816 you rock, man!
@@nufnuf816 jantec also does good testing :)