Isle of Dogs, or Isle of Docks?
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So, a few people have asked if it's possible that 'Isle of Dogs' is derived from 'Isle of Docks.' Probably not, and here's why.
Previous video: • The Isle of Dogs: Expl...
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I love that Jago's mum watches his videos
So that’s the other viewer, phew I am relieved I’m not alone!😂
Yes, bless em, n hello Jago's mum!
Btw brilliant video.
Yh, any shenanigans from Jago would be Hazzardous 😆
@@whyyoulidl You are quite Wright.
Got to keep him on the straight and narrow somehow.
What we have learned after all these videos is that Jago's mum watches them.
On behalf of his fans, might I say "Hello, Mrs Hazzard"
You mean we may have been barking up the wrong creek?
Yup barking creek is down river a bit.
Brilliant riposte my friend 😅
@@terrycostin7259 thank you kind sir, your taste is admirable.
It’s a poplar misconception.
Isn't that a bit of a reach?
The text, "I did remember!" On the top right corner make me smile
It could have also been the isle of bogs, because it was full of marshlands (as Jago mentioned). Some may argue that it still is an isle of bogs. Or just one big bog.
I remember visiting Greenwich and the Isle Of Dogs as a little 'un with my parents in the very early eighties (they had friends there). It always stuck with me how dilapidated the whole area was yet also how vibrant, atmospheric and teeming with life. And I got to see the Creek Road drawbridge in operation!
I also recall visiting Greenwich and the Isle in the late 60s, and remember seeing how run down it was...some things took a while to change!
@@brettpalfrey4665 I was also going to say that these days it seems like the opposite - much more upmarket but kind of soulless. I appreciate that people who actually lived and worked in the Isle Of Dogs back then might have a different perspective on that, though.
@@brettpalfrey4665 Back in the 1960s the Isle of Dogs had a distinctive "aroma" - it was very apparent when coming out of the foot tunnel!
@@johnedwards3760 What was the aroma (if I dare ask)?
@@apollo.c.vermouth5672 Rank! A cross between the less attractive elements of chemical and agricultural. But there were some fascinating places too. "Call The Midwife" captures a bit of the atmosphere.
I love that this channel makes me think about place's names that I either never knew about or places I never thought about! Keep up this great series, Jago!
Not an island but it would have become an oxbow lake had man not intervened
It's the same for me, Heidi. Then this got me thinking of a place located not far from where I live. Dogtown Village, located on Cape Ann near Gloucester and Rockport, Massachusetts. The location is now a wooded park with trails and old foundations. The area is said to have been settled by the women and their dogs while their husbands were out at sea fishing and later on while their husbands fought in the American Revolution. As the fishing industry improved, people moved back to town, and being near the coast Dogtown wasn't safe from shelling by the British frigates during the war, so people left.
In the latter years, the area remained the place for the unwanted and there were people that lived there that were accused of witchcraft. One woman in particular Tammy (Thomazine) Younger used to intimidate passersby.
Pesky Red Coats! I wonder what ever happened to them. Oh that’s right, they now invade Orlando and New York demanding tea. Then asking where is the milk and why is there no boiling water to make proper tea. ❤🇬🇧❤🏴❤🇺🇸🙂👍
“…but we got pirates in there so that’s fun.” - Pitch Meeting for ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’.
Thank you, Jago. Didn't really clear up the derivation of the Isle of Dogs, but it was an entertaining tale nonetheless.
3:25. Love how smooth the segue to the sponsor was, and only the segue back to topic needed mention :D
When I first went around here I couldn't wrap my head that 30-40 years ago, there were nothing but abandoned warehouses and delapidated buildings. You could say it truly went to the dogs. Incredible what they could build in that time frame. Lovely shot of the Götheborg as well, when was it in London?
London is like that. Major 1984 vibes these days, when your satnav sends you to a car park that doesn't exist, or the shop you read about on google maps just last night is just a gap in the skyline.
@@Skorpychan I can imagine that, these days I see Vauxhall is having the same skyscraper boom, I don't recall it being so height developed in 2018
When I first moved to London in 2006 I had to avoid looking at flat-shares that way because my A-Z was about 5 years old and simply didn't cut it. You should go watch The Long Good Friday (brilliant classic gangster film largely set in the old Docklands)
The UK TV channel ITV4 has a load of classic TV series on it such as The Sweeney (1974 to 1978) & The Professionals (1977 to 1983). Both series seem to use this area extensively for run down location shooting, pre gentrification. The Sweeney was always (yes I know, ‘were’) chasing S type Jaguars (Jags) around full of “Villains” carrying sawn off shotguns (Shooters), with stockings over their heads (‘eds), as they were making their getaway after they had done a “Blag” on the Williams and Glynns Bank on the high street. Then Inspector Reagan would give them a bunch of fives to the gut and say “Your nicked son!”. The blaggers would then be straight back into “Wandsworth” or “The Scrubs” with the numbers on their names.
What sort of rude comments are on here especially this one. The Isle of Dogs had one of the best communities anywhere in the world and responses like yours is why we live under a cloud. The island had loads that other places didn’t, people who cared and people, who actually knew each other. People who belittle the island know very little
"Personally when a want to get around restrictions..." Quality :D
5:33 With the closure of my local car mechanics south of the river I got last year's MOT there.
On top of the garage is the stub of the old DLR alignment that terminated at Island Gardens.
Hi Jago. Wikipedia says "In English law, time immemorial ends and legal memory begins at 1189 A.D., the end of the reign of King Henry II". QI also asked your question about when time immemorial was, but I cannot remember exactly when it was - I think they even came up with a specific date.
14th September.
I made that up, so it's now going to go into the history books as definitive.
Try 6 July 1189, the death of Henry II and the accession of Richard I. Richard’s coronation was on 3 September, so that’s another plausible date.
Lovely clips of the area's housing.
Meanwhile on the BBC website they did an article recently about reducing the amount of light pollution at Canary Wharf whilst constantly referring to the City of London and the "Square Mile" which cause me much amusement.
'Lovely clips of the area's housing.' A few years' ago, I considered a move to over there but discovered that I couldn't afford it.😔
@@eattherich9215 A lot of the older properties are extremely good value, especially when compared with the modern ghastly "apartments" in soulless high rise towers.
Hello Mrs. Hazzard, you boy has done good.
Hello to Jagos Mum🤚🏻…
Canary Wharf is on the Isle of Dogs. The Canary Islands, which shipped fruit to Canary Wharf, are not named after any birds, but from the Latin canaris - dogs. Don't know if this is the answer, but is an interesting coincidence.
A worthy paws for thought . . . : )
I think this was mentioned in the last video on the subject. It was also mentioned that the birds are named after the islands, not the other way round. So the birds are "dog birds".
One day we'll know after an archeologist digs up a Roman stone with the inscription "Cave Canem".
Thank you Jago. I've been saying this for years. Isle of Docks to me always seemed to be the correct one. So glad you've gone through this though.
That seque is worthy of breakfast telly.
Thank you Jago for sniffing out the name, I raise my leg in salute. Cheers from California 😊
The pirate hanging from the gibbet at the end put me in mind of the term "seadog", meaning "experienced seaman". Maybe this was where they lived
Time immemorial 'in its present form' is 1189 (and possibly specifically before 6 July of that year), or, more vaguely, 'since before anyone can remember it being different.'
I was hooked on this video from “on whom, more later”
As an interesting aside, North Ormesby market in Middlesbrough is known as "Doggy Market", which DOES derive from "dockside"- it is beside the old Middlesbrough dock (where the Riverside Stadium is, for those who follow football).
Made it all the way through the video without once hearing an utterance of, "You scurvy dog".
6:18 Shoutout to Jago’s Mum who watches these videos. 👏🏽
This video’s Ad Read was (chef’s kiss)
One of the main methods of both loading and discharging vessels was by Barges/lighters. I can remember in the Royal Docks in the late 70's lighters full of "CKD"s Car Knock Down arriving from Ford for export to Singapore. Tea, coffee and rubber were discharged to lighters , the Rubber and Latex to the London Rubber Company, Tea to Twining's.
I was always under the impression that it was where King Henry VIII used to hunt with his dogs when in his time it was an extention of the Epping Forest which was also a Royal Park. But then again......
It always makes me shake my head, when I go to the Isle of Dogs one side of the road are council flats and the other multi million pound river side apartments allegedly built with Brinks mat gold.
Are council flats the UK's version of what is known as public housing in the US?
@@tihspidtherekciltilc5469Yes, very much so. See Harry Brown, a Michael Caine movie from 2009 set on a council estate and full of projects-style criminality. Most people living in council flats are actually pretty ordinary in real life.
@@SkepticalSteve01 I appreciate the reply and from my experience the majority of people in public housing are good people and that's from living in multiple states and DC.
@@tihspidtherekciltilc5469 Yes they knocked down the slums and built slums in the sky.
.. except that there are no riverside apartments, that is where the older housing is. The expensive apartments are all in the tower blocks situated around the former docks.
Love your videos Jago, thanks for all the research and effort you put in
🥉
Thanks!
6:02 there's the Traffic Light Tree
I have always mentally associated Isle of Dogs with Canary Wharf, as we know that the latter was named for the Canary Islands, but the islands were not named for the eponymous singing-birds but for the dogs that roamed there.... a bit of a random association, though, as of course the place existed long before the dock!
You can walk to Canary Wharf from the Isle of Dogs in less than 10 mins.
At 4:35 on the ancient map, at the southern tip, was an "I. of Dog Ho." Domestically speaking, that is where I currently reside :(
I appreciate how committed Jago is to solving this mystery
Dog-derived Epithet. I’m definitely using that at some point.
"And not anything else your filthy mind might be thinking when I say the word dogger."
Cod, i love your humor Jago XD Also, definitely a call out for one or two people lol
I think that last theory (hanging the dead pirates) might be a bit truer. That is the sort of image that stays with people. Calling someone a "dog" carries a negative connetation, and I can see how sailors can call pirates "dogs". This is not just an English phenomena, as in Spanish calling someone "perro" is almost always negative.
An other explanation can be from the fact that the Thames here has a sharp bend, or dogleg.
The river bends in that area are smooth and not remotely like a dogleg, which involves two straight lines and an acute angle - you know, just like a dog's leg.
Wes Anderson would say ‘Isle of Dogs’, but a Londoner might say ‘Isle of Docks’.
Given the multiple possibilities, I suspect the Isle of Dogs may be hounding you for a while yet...
Great video, as a kid I was told about hunting dogs being kept there! But now that I'm all grown up I can look into things. If you look at any maps before the 19th century there's nothing there. The hanging of pirates (sea dogs) sounds more plausible. Also I wonder if the name Dogger came from the area in the north sea called Doggerland, being fishing related or something.
Excellent camera work on this video, very enjoyable viewing.
It’s not a vlog until there are pirates!!
Loved the way you seamlessly wove the sponsor's message into this tale :^)
The pirate explanation sounds the most plausible to me.
Mention of pirates always reminds me of one of ny favourite jokes - "what letter comes after P in the Pirate alphabet?" "Arghhhhh". Sounds better than it reads...
Why are pirates called pirates ? Cos they arrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Perhaps a short overview of the Surrey , St Katherines and London Docks is in order , along with link and refresh of your vids on the canal and basins off at Limehouse.
I did one on St Katharine’s a while back. The others are on the list - actually, Surrey might be coming up fairly soon.
Love how you slipped in the video sponsor.... channeling your inner Yerkes,Mr.H?? 😊😜👍
In English law "time immemorial" is pre-1189.
As far as the Isle of Dogs not being an island I suspect the marshes made it one for all intents & purposes. I have read that the marshes dug out to form the Royal docks were such a barrier to travel they formed the boundary between Kent & Essex rather than the river. Hence North Woolwich.
I remember visiting the Isle of Dogs or London Docklands as it was called, just before all the redevelopment took place. Visiting the old Wharfs and Warehouses before developers got their greedy hands on them, and gentrified them for rich folk. And when I visited Tobacco Dock in Wapping, which is in close proximity to the Isle of Dogs, before it became the ill fated shopping centre that never was, I remember you could still smell the Tobacco inside the warehouse, and it conjured up memories for me of Britain’s empire. Great video Jago.
It’s never been called Docklands, it’s been The Isle of Dogs for hundreds of years,
@@iddywig So where does the "London Docklands Development Corporation" and "Docklands Light Railway" come from?
Surely when anyone hears the word 'Dogger', their first thought is the wonderful children's book by the late Shirley Hughes?
Towards the end, after a brief pause, I was expecting the narration to go: "If you'd like to visit the Isle of Dogs, take the bus from..." before I realized I wasn't watching The Tim Traveller 😅 Well, maybe some other time then 😜
I often go in the pub at 5:42 The Gun, when I go up and visit family in London. Nice views down river and of the O2 on the opposite bank.
My brother works on the bar there! Nice place, innit? Joolz Guides went inside for a chat with JP in his most recent video, if you want to learn some more about the pub :)
This part of London has always fascinated me. 👍
Was the land owned by a hospital?
Isle of Docs?
Hello Jago's mum :o)
Speaking of mothers and female dogs … As a teenage boy, my angry mother once referred to me as an SOB, to which I replied "That says more about you than it does about me." I then turned and walked out of the house while she stood there unuttered disbelief. She never referred to me as that again.
*Edited for the pedants.
Oddly, your wit would have been equally effective if you had said "more" instead of "less". Isn't English weird?
@@kgbgb3663 In fact, I may actually have phrased it that way. Alas, it was decades ago and she's not here to correct me anymore.
I think you just butchered your story. Replace "less" with "more".
@@hb1338 In essence, that's what I said in my reply.
Joolz Guides just pipped you to the Isle of Dogs this week!
Could there possibly have been a pack, or a few packs, of wild dogs living in the Isle of Dogs?
The Canary Islands also means The Islands of Dogs, but the birds that were found on the islands, were named after the Canines.
its isle of sea dogs as pirates used to operate or unload there.
Pirates in the Thames ? Yeah, right.
I likes to think it's named after all the salty sea dogs. Ah you beat me to it
The word 'dogs' is a common one in phrases which imply something negative - dog's dinner, gone to the dogs, sick as a dog, etc. And these phrases are generally much older than the London docks. So, my suggestion is that area was so-named to imply that it wasn't a nice place (for whatever reason - possibly because it was marshy), rather than it had any specific connection with dogs. So, you'll have to make another video now...
makes perfect sense, but I wonder why the common British slang for describing something as amazingly good is 'the dog's bollocks'!
Very interesting , as a suggestion to a previous video, one origin for Herne Hill is it’s named after the Herne family who lived in the area in the 17th century. There are other theories. As with isle of Dogs probably unlikely to find a definitive answer less some hitherto unknown manuscripts come to light that make things clear once and for all. It’s similar case for many place names in London and indeed further afield , pays yer money and takes yer choice
Did Mr and Mrs Dog live there?
I like to think that King Henry VIII went there and said "I Love Dogs" - and so they named that area.
"Time immemorial" is any time before July 6th 1189. It stems from the codifying in writing of the Laws of England. If you or your forebears owned property before that date, that was sufficient to prove ownership.
I only watch these to find out more about SurfShark
Hello, Jago's Mom
I hope you read comment too
Because your son make a wonderful video and you should give him a hug and kiss for this
Jago isnt coming out hes been a naughty boy lol
I have a possibility for you. It's related to canary wharf. The original dock was dedicated to trade with the Canary Islands which in the 17th century was quite large. Now the canary is as we know, a bird, but the Canaries may have gotten it's name from Canis- Dogs in Latin and we are going back to possibly Tudor times, Canary wharf was opened later but it is possible that the area could have got it's name from the shipping that was involved.
The concept of Bonded warehouses and Customs controls was not a bar to landing goods. Most of the listed Customs houses are from the 17th Century, but Customs existed far earlier than that. Chaucer was the collector for London in the reign of Richard the II.
As far as I can make out the right tax tax imports could be down to the Local landowner, who would himself be taxed on the basis of the expected revenue. Since time immemorial Richard 1- 1189-1199 IRC.
I fear people have misunderstood why it was once called the Isle of Docks. The name goes back many years to the vast amount of docks, the rumex obtusifolius type, that were grown there by one time smallholder, Horace Waters. The not inconsiderable patch of broad leaved plants he grew earnt his smallholding the sobriquet Dock Green. Others followed his example and by the end of the C19 the island had become renowned for its docks.
At least I think that's what happened.
Dock Green I thought was near Paddington, as patrolled by Sgt George Dixon
Nice views around London & the Thames area as ever Jago - Thanks for sharing!!! 😉🚂🚂🚂
0:44 Jago really knows their audience, I presume? 😂
One day Jago will uncover the mystery of the 'Isle of Dogs'! Great video
I seem to recall, that "time immemorial" refers to the year 1189.
Thanks for the video - enjoying the lack of resolution (and pirates) - and best wishes to Mother Hazzard.
Did Old Mother Hazzard go to the cupboard to fetch a bone for the dogs on the island?
Very interesting. Thanks for the reference to pirates. Are you familiar with The History Guy TH-cam channel, Jago? He likes to get pirates into his narrative whenever possible. "Don't all the best stories involve pirates?" is almost his catchphrase.
I’m not, but he sounds worth checking out!
"Are pirates always mentioned in his videos?"
"They arrrrrr."
@@paulsengupta971 Yes, & I know what the Pi Rats have planned too.. EG: th-cam.com/video/Xq9f1xLLbaM/w-d-xo.html Many other video on the subject too and more to come as the events approach.
Excellent as always but this one was fantastic.
May I be permitted to have a crack at this derivation thing ...
My "theory" is that the Thames does a big U bend here necessitating that the sailing vessels of old undertake a series of "dog legs" in order to negotiate this section of river. The piece of land therein contained would therefore be regarded as an island [okay it's an ithsmus but, pedants aside, Isle will do] that denoted the place where a series of tacks or gybes - one is where the bow passes into the wind, the other the stern is presented to the wind - needed to be done in order to perform said dogs [or dog legs] to progress up or down stream.
Therefore, upon sighting said piece of land, a sailor would recognise it as being the place that needed to be dogged around - hence; Isle of Dogs.
Apologies for the length of this explanation, almost as long as Jago's video itself, but I hope it stands up as a theory.
Its funny how the word segue has transformed into Segway, a commercial name.
Haha, who cares about coming to a definitive conclusion, it’s just lovely simply to talk about the various parts of our city
As always, erudite, entertaining and just good fun. Always a pleasure Jago!
Time immemorial means 1189 A.D, the death of King Henry II.
Apparently it is important for law students in Australia in the 21st century to know that we only have to look back to the 12th century to know what our common law is.
I hope you aren’t barking up the wrong tree with this one, Jago and that the research did not leave you feeling a little ruff…
Is your favourite pantomine snow white and the severn whaves ?
wharves.
Great video as usual. How about a video on the Lost Rivers of London, eg. Tyburn, Fleet, Wandle, Ravensbourne,...to name a few.
Definitely not the Wandle. See Wikipedia entry.
Underground, overground, Wandling free.
You've been dogged by going back to this subject.
Jago the scruffy detective with dogged determination is going to get to the bottom of this.
Pirates, yes, airships not so much
The romans called the place Canarii, The etymology of this word suggests Canine hence dog. Interestingly the colours associated with this place was green. Added with the yellow of the bird Canary you have the colours of Norwich city football club (the Canary's). When Canary wharf (Note the name again) was built a lot of green was in the internal structure. Perhaps you could look there for your next video on the subject
What about the story that King Charles kept his spaniels there in kennels? Not the present Charles, I mean number two.
no truth that Camillia has a 2nd home their then ?
Another good un, Jago..so I ask again, when are you going to do Barking and Catford?
It is one of those lexicological mysteries that the word "dog" sprang into use around the 15th century, supplanting the proper saxon/germanic word "hound". Where the word came from is unknown,
I propose a reverse derivation:-
The term dog was a general epithet for ne'erdowells, pirates and criminals and the destitute folk who surround them in a grey economy outside the wealthy city. Possibly the term originated with the dogger fishermen and other watermen of the dogger sea area; it has a suitably dour onomatopaeic dirge to describe such a disreputable underclass.
The Isle of Dogs was effectively an island for the purposes of transportation and policing due to the marshes. It was likely the closest point to the wealth and trade of the great walled city and offered a base for scavenging, smuggling and other illegalities by water while allowing the 'doggers' to hide from recriminations in the marshy interior.
Perhaps the release of hunting hounds on the peninsula was, in part to clear this hive of scum and villiany.
Perhaps the name attached to these wild and dangerous people was transferred to the wild and dangerous hounds which supplanted them.
Thus the Isle of Dogs is the progenitor rather than the recipient of the name?
I'm fairly sure that Canary Wharf was built on the site of Cannery Wharf, where there was once a cannery. The developers changed the name to the twee Canary Wharf to reflect the high profile they hoped to achieve, and to remove any association with something so despicable as a cannery. There used to be evidence of this on the net but it seems to have been redacted in favour of the myth that the wharf was dedicated to ships from the Canaries. Any thoughts anyone?
As an aside, the Canaries could be called the Isles of Dogs, as they are in Spanish - Islas Canarias. (The birds were named after the islands, not vice versa.)
In English Common Law Time Immemorial is everything before A.D. 1189. So some time around the start of London getting too full and too expensive, probably.
That would be AD63 ?
@@highpath4776 Claudius being the first 'do-er upper' then.
@@glynwelshkarelian3489 Added the Ampitheatre ?
@@highpath4776 A gated community with a massively improved transport system created by Emperor Carolus Tiberius Jercess. You can see why property prices shot up!
As The History Guy says, Don't all good stories involve pirates?' LOL!
So what about Canary Wharf as that could also have something to do with dogs as does the Canary islands i.e. the Latin word for dog, canaria.
Legally speaking, "time immemorial" in England means "before July 6, 1189". Because of course some lawyer had to come up with a precise definition of it sometime. :)
So what happened on July 7 1189 ?
On July 6, 1189, young Richard I, titled Coeur de Lion, or Lionheart, ascended the British throne (Crowned on Sept 3 1189).
Dont forget that we had a change of calender in the mid 1600s losing a few days
@@highpath4776 We didn't lose any days at all, we just chose to use a different mapping scheme.
@@hb1338 People who got paid at the end of the month had real concerns about the change, since their pay for the changover month would be more than a week short and their monthly bills would come due 11 days sooner than usual. Claims that riots broke out are probably false, but enough people were agitated about the potential problems that the legislation enabling the calendar change had to address them.
Keep up the amazing work
🥈