Thanks for going over my question Paul! It puts me on the right track for my design, and makes the better half happier cause the box isn't going to be as big!!!
There is an advantage of having stand-alone sub-woofers: You want your speaker's other drivers (mid and highs) to not shake. When the bass is built-in to the speaker, it will shake the entire speaker, which has the other drivers. If it were a video screen, you would see the image not having precise focus, due to the vibrations. The same goes for sound, when the drivers vibrate. Then again, by not having the sub-woofers in the speakers, bass imaging will be off, a bit. But that is not likely to be much of an issue, because our ears do not hear bass with the same precision as we hear mids and highs. But there is a trade-off, minimal as it is. The biggest issues are what Paul discussed, because it is really hard to get accurate bass, at one frequency, and then another frequency, etc. Rooms simply have pockets that suck out certain bass frequencies and exaggerate certain bass frequencies. But for those that were not aware... when you keep your mids and high drivers from shaking, your music will have better focus. Cheers!
Separate subwoofers - a design concept that's here to stay. I still remember some hi fi journalists saying they can't wait for the subwoofer fad to end back in 1987.
I still remember hearing and feeling what a pair of built in subs in a older pair of genesis amp1 could do. Basically 2 of those well regarded genesis 900 subs. Almost bought them speakers. They were huge and heavy. That rosewood cuved wood was beautiful though!
My JBL HP-520 speakers are 4-way with two 8 inch drivers inside each speaker with a bass port at the top which seems like they are functioning as built-in subs, although they are powered by the amplifier, not by a built in one. To me, they sound great and produce tight accurate sounding bass and to me, the advantage, the mid bass is handled by a separate 6.5 inch driver, separate from the midrange and tweeter. I've been used to the sound of these since 1995 when I got them.
Agree with this you can easily have 20-30db of db swings in bass due to the room at the optimal place for speakers so it's always better to place those as best you can then place the subwoofer(s) as best you can and use HPF/LPF to route the bass appropriately.
I have them built into my speakers. They are just the lowest of the 5 ways (active!) . Of course I can see his point, but I like it aesthetically to have them as part of the speaker! Also, this way there are two subs. Proving his point, one is much more efficient than the other, because of their positions in the room. But it doesn't matter, they both run in mono anyway, and the result is excellent.
Love having separate dedicates subs, have to have at least 2. Less strain on your more expensive towers and a lot less strain on your main amplifier. Gives you a lot more flexibility with dsp etc.
@Lloyd Stout I agree, have to put in the hours with measurements, adjustments, measurements, adjustments and so on and so on. If people are willing to put in the work, it is a game changer.
Asking Paul this question is an easy no because for 2 channel audiophiles it's not ideal for that application. Asking someone who likes the benefits of a fully active system (time alignment) it's a hell yes, but it's still not ideal but it's your money to burn. 🤷♀️
I started in car audio and it was common to think that a subwoofer would be needed to play EVERYTHING below ~50hz if not higher. Most home speakers don't seem to go below ~40hz so when I see these gigantic speakers that hit < 30hz I basically think of them as already having subwoofers built in. Then, as Paul mentions, positioning becomes a huge factor so I question the need to buy those models. I'd consider one or two models down the line and with the money saved get one or two quality subwoofers and place them well. My subs are currently ~ 3 1/2 feet from the main speakers well in the corner and not for any WAF.
Hey Paul. I totally agree with you about the subwoofers. For my High-end home cinema I have 2 subwoofers. But when I listen to music with my other High-end equipment, I use the large 2 kef Reference model 4.2 and they have all 2.2 subwoofers built in. so that's 4 subwoofers for the 2 speakers. And it sounds very, very good. Of all the speakers I've had, I think this Kef sounds the best. Greetings from the Netherlands Limburg Maastricht and above all continue with High-end for us and yourself and your team. Peace and love. ✌😘👌👍😉 P.S. We are curious about the new speakers that you will probably show soon.😁
I understand where Paul is coming from pertaining to subwoofer ideal placement but too often it doesn’t work out this way. Some have cabinets already or the subwoofer can’t be placed in the middle because that is there the flat screen and / or center channel is etc. Just my opinion also but I feel less tuning headaches are involved in one invests in tower speakers and larger single subwoofer. It’s just much easier to set up. Just put one sub in a corner and cross over at 75hz and below. Larger driver such as 12 in or above is better as deeper bass is less directional. You get the mid bass from the tower speakers. The above is for a larger room with single listener seating position. It’s hard to please everyone also based on where they are sitting.
The Australian accent is like the British accent mixed with a southern US accent. LOL, robin williams once said there isn’t much difference between a Bubba and a Bruce!
Sure, if the sub is closed off from the other divers and it's active. I wouldn't recommend installing a subwoofer to an existing cabinet as it's not designed for the subwoofer vibrations/pressure.
If I only have a footprint for two subwoofers up on the front stage ie on the outside of the towers, is it better to have 2 ported subs vs two stacks of similar sized/powered sealed subs? Eg. 2x SVS PB4000 vs 2 x 2 stacks SVS SB4000. Looking for a performance comparison not cost.
Paul, that brings up a question. I know that speakers and rooms differ. But, what's a good "approximate" crossover frequency to start with [and then tweak from there] after the subwoofer placement crawl routine is resolved?
I'm not Paul but, it's dependent on your mains. Bass is not easily located if crosses over lower than 80hz, so consider that an upper limit for all subs. A generic suggestion would be 60hz for stand mount speakers and 30 hz for towers
I’m a bit confused now. I thought that theory was for home theater not for music. Based on previous videos, music ideally would have to be a system 2:2, two speakers and two subs (placed next to the speakers) so the lower frequencies “could be generated” by the main speakers.
Unfortunately no. Bass from a subwoofer is usually crossed over around 80-90hz and bass in those frequencies should not be directional. So you can put them anywhere in the room and it should sound like the bass is all around you and not coming from a point source. 2 subs are great for correcting room modes and flattening the fq response but rarely would placement best be right next to the main LR speakers. But that is room dependent.
I thought he meant built into the room. I know of someone who built straight 8' concrete horns into the side of the hill behind his daylight basement. (I don't know how long the horns were; they were 8' tall at the terminus.)
Are the same steps followed when placing a 2nd Subwoofer? Or should I place 2 subs at listeng position, and then crawl to find the 2 best places? Help bcuz I'm completely lost as simple as it may sound.
Yes. If I were you I would audition some Ohm Walsh speakers. These are omnidirectional speakers, and are said to sound good no matter where you are in the room.
In the lower frequencies where the room dominates the frequency response walking around you will definitely hear peaks and nulls unless you do some serious room treatment and dial in many subwoofers. Even really good setups with room correction, dsp, and rew usually only give great response at several seating positions. But not an entire room.
but wait, that doesn't address if you have separate stereo subs. you want me to put both my powered subs in the listening position then walk around to find the best sound and then put BOTH my subs in that ONE spot. head scratch.
if you have a symmetrical room you automatically have two spots, so when you find one the room is mirrored so you have another spot for the other subwoofer on the other side. if your room is asymmetrical then you can't reliably use the subwoofer crawl method. but you also have limited your placement options of the subwoofers since its stereo subs, not many placements to test out.
yeah i have a friend that insists in having his tweeters in their dedicated boxes placed in other place further awey from mids... as in a car. he has all 3 ways in their respective boxes placed strategically all over his listening room.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Paul hit this one out of the park! I am a huge fan of separate subs for this very reason. It's physics!
Paul that was the QUICKEST off on a tangent I can remember! 🤣
It's a true tangent when the subject matter takes off in another direction/topic. In this case, subwoofers are the tangent ;-)
Thanks for going over my question Paul! It puts me on the right track for my design, and makes the better half happier cause the box isn't going to be as big!!!
There is an advantage of having stand-alone sub-woofers:
You want your speaker's other drivers (mid and highs) to not shake.
When the bass is built-in to the speaker, it will shake the entire speaker, which has the other drivers.
If it were a video screen, you would see the image not having precise focus, due to the vibrations. The same goes for sound, when the drivers vibrate.
Then again, by not having the sub-woofers in the speakers, bass imaging will be off, a bit. But that is not likely to be much of an issue, because our ears do not hear bass with the same precision as we hear mids and highs. But there is a trade-off, minimal as it is.
The biggest issues are what Paul discussed, because it is really hard to get accurate bass, at one frequency, and then another frequency, etc. Rooms simply have pockets that suck out certain bass frequencies and exaggerate certain bass frequencies.
But for those that were not aware... when you keep your mids and high drivers from shaking, your music will have better focus.
Cheers!
There is no such thing as bass imaging
@@TessellationRow
th-cam.com/video/_XKbkVKJ87k/w-d-xo.html
Separate subwoofers - a design concept that's here to stay. I still remember some hi fi journalists saying they can't wait for the subwoofer fad to end back in 1987.
Right around the time I built my first subwoofer.
Bought my first subs ~1990.
i heard the same when i bought my first sub.....1978
And those Journalists were all from the UK ;-)
@@jamesplotkin4674 I think it was a 50-50 split of Brits and Americans.
I still remember hearing and feeling what a pair of built in subs in a older pair of genesis amp1 could do. Basically 2 of those well regarded genesis 900 subs. Almost bought them speakers. They were huge and heavy. That rosewood cuved wood was beautiful though!
1:21 & before Def Tech, Sandy was a co-founder of Polk Audio. they have built-in subs, too.
My JBL HP-520 speakers are 4-way with two 8 inch drivers inside each speaker with a bass port at the top which seems like they are functioning as built-in subs, although they are powered by the amplifier, not by a built in one. To me, they sound great and produce tight accurate sounding bass and to me, the advantage, the mid bass is handled by a separate 6.5 inch driver, separate from the midrange and tweeter. I've been used to the sound of these since 1995 when I got them.
Agree with this you can easily have 20-30db of db swings in bass due to the room at the optimal place for speakers so it's always better to place those as best you can then place the subwoofer(s) as best you can and use HPF/LPF to route the bass appropriately.
Paradigm was building floorstanders with built-in powered subs over 20 years ago.
I have them built into my speakers. They are just the lowest of the 5 ways (active!) . Of course I can see his point, but I like it aesthetically to have them as part of the speaker! Also, this way there are two subs. Proving his point, one is much more efficient than the other, because of their positions in the room. But it doesn't matter, they both run in mono anyway, and the result is excellent.
Love having separate dedicates subs, have to have at least 2. Less strain on your more expensive towers and a lot less strain on your main amplifier. Gives you a lot more flexibility with dsp etc.
@Lloyd Stout I agree, have to put in the hours with measurements, adjustments, measurements, adjustments and so on and so on. If people are willing to put in the work, it is a game changer.
Asking Paul this question is an easy no because for 2 channel audiophiles it's not ideal for that application. Asking someone who likes the benefits of a fully active system (time alignment) it's a hell yes, but it's still not ideal but it's your money to burn. 🤷♀️
I believe I see my beloved HCA2 back there behind you. 😁
4 asymmetrically placed mono subs crossed over low is an interesting way to handle bass.
If you add subs to your main towers you will have to isolate the woofers and mids to prevent blow outs and to prevent resonance in your mids
I started in car audio and it was common to think that a subwoofer would be needed to play EVERYTHING below ~50hz if not higher. Most home speakers don't seem to go below ~40hz so when I see these gigantic speakers that hit < 30hz I basically think of them as already having subwoofers built in. Then, as Paul mentions, positioning becomes a huge factor so I question the need to buy those models. I'd consider one or two models down the line and with the money saved get one or two quality subwoofers and place them well. My subs are currently ~ 3 1/2 feet from the main speakers well in the corner and not for any WAF.
Wow!!! What a great idea. Excellent video. Should be a sticky on youtube
Hey Paul. I totally agree with you about the subwoofers. For my High-end home cinema I have 2 subwoofers. But when I listen to music with my other High-end equipment, I use the large 2 kef Reference model 4.2 and they have all 2.2 subwoofers built in. so that's 4 subwoofers for the 2 speakers. And it sounds very, very good. Of all the speakers I've had, I think this Kef sounds the best. Greetings from the Netherlands Limburg Maastricht and above all continue with High-end for us and yourself and your team. Peace and love.
✌😘👌👍😉
P.S. We are curious about the new speakers that you will probably show soon.😁
Build it into the wall (unless your wall is wood because then you turn your house into a massive subwoofer
Is this where the genre of electronic dance music known as "house" comes from?😆
What's wrong with a house sized subwoofer, lol?☺☺☺☺
Now I decided for a more budget bookshelf and a subwoofer.
I understand where Paul is coming from pertaining to subwoofer ideal placement but too often it doesn’t work out this way.
Some have cabinets already or the subwoofer can’t be placed in the middle because that is there the flat screen and / or center channel is etc.
Just my opinion also but I feel less tuning headaches are involved in one invests in tower speakers and larger single subwoofer. It’s just much easier to set up.
Just put one sub in a corner and cross over at 75hz and below. Larger driver such as 12 in or above is better as deeper bass is less directional.
You get the mid bass from the tower speakers.
The above is for a larger room with single listener seating position.
It’s hard to please everyone also based on where they are sitting.
The Australian accent is like the British accent mixed with a southern US accent. LOL, robin williams once said there isn’t much difference between a Bubba and a Bruce!
So, are you saying there will be also one day a subwoofer from PS Audio available?
Gavin? From Australia? Are the Slo Mo Guys into audio as well?
Sure, if the sub is closed off from the other divers and it's active. I wouldn't recommend installing a subwoofer to an existing cabinet as it's not designed for the subwoofer vibrations/pressure.
If I only have a footprint for two subwoofers up on the front stage ie on the outside of the towers, is it better to have 2 ported subs vs two stacks of similar sized/powered sealed subs? Eg. 2x SVS PB4000 vs 2 x 2 stacks SVS SB4000. Looking for a performance comparison not cost.
Don't forget to raise the sub as much as you can!
Tnx 👍
Paul, that brings up a question. I know that speakers and rooms differ. But, what's a good "approximate" crossover frequency to start with [and then tweak from there] after the subwoofer placement crawl routine is resolved?
I'm not Paul but, it's dependent on your mains. Bass is not easily located if crosses over lower than 80hz, so consider that an upper limit for all subs. A generic suggestion would be 60hz for stand mount speakers and 30 hz for towers
I would start with a high pass frequency of 40Hz.
Thank u Paul
I’m a bit confused now. I thought that theory was for home theater not for music. Based on previous videos, music ideally would have to be a system 2:2, two speakers and two subs (placed next to the speakers) so the lower frequencies “could be generated” by the main speakers.
Unfortunately no. Bass from a subwoofer is usually crossed over around 80-90hz and bass in those frequencies should not be directional. So you can put them anywhere in the room and it should sound like the bass is all around you and not coming from a point source. 2 subs are great for correcting room modes and flattening the fq response but rarely would placement best be right next to the main LR speakers. But that is room dependent.
@@jeremymorales8951 Agree 100%
I thought he meant built into the room. I know of someone who built straight 8' concrete horns into the side of the hill behind his daylight basement. (I don't know how long the horns were; they were 8' tall at the terminus.)
Aiwa also
That's a long winded way of saying, yes you can as long as u understand the downside.
Are the same steps followed when placing a 2nd Subwoofer? Or should I place 2 subs at listeng position, and then crawl to find the 2 best places? Help bcuz I'm completely lost as simple as it may sound.
If most of my listening is walking around open two room space, does that affect choice of speakers if not in sweet spot for listening most of time?
Yes. If I were you I would audition some Ohm Walsh speakers. These are omnidirectional speakers, and are said to sound good no matter where you are in the room.
In the lower frequencies where the room dominates the frequency response walking around you will definitely hear peaks and nulls unless you do some serious room treatment and dial in many subwoofers. Even really good setups with room correction, dsp, and rew usually only give great response at several seating positions. But not an entire room.
and how would that work with two subwoofers?
Isn't "sub" woofer like jumbo shrimp?
Listening position... The whole room? 😏
My pet-peeve, Power supply inside of the sub box. I'd gladly give-up the space and have an amp outside. Anyone make such a sub?
but wait, that doesn't address if you have separate stereo subs. you want me to put both my powered subs in the listening position then walk around to find the best sound and then put BOTH my subs in that ONE spot. head scratch.
if you have a symmetrical room you automatically have two spots, so when you find one the room is mirrored so you have another spot for the other subwoofer on the other side.
if your room is asymmetrical then you can't reliably use the subwoofer crawl method. but you also have limited your placement options of the subwoofers since its stereo subs, not many placements to test out.
yeah i have a friend that insists in having his tweeters in their dedicated boxes placed in other place further awey from mids... as in a car.
he has all 3 ways in their respective boxes placed strategically all over his listening room.
in all my vehicles, i colocate my tweeters & mids.
if stock mounting isnt available, thats why they make sawzall & dremel tools.
Tnx 👍