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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2024
- Primatologist Frans de Waal inadvertently popularized the term ‘alpha male.’ Now, he’s debunking common stereotypes to explain what an ‘alpha male’ really is - empathetic and protective.
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All social animals establish hierarchies, but being an “alpha male” is not merely about strength or intimidation, according to primatologist Frans de Waal. An alpha male can often be a figure admired for empathy and protectiveness.
De Waal criticizes the misconception of the term as synonymous with a bully. He further explores the concept of gender, arguing its flexibility and highlighting the existence of significant individual variability in behavior among primates. De Waal emphasizes empathy as a key factor in social cohesion, suggesting it might hint at morality among primates.
Despite our advancements, he believes humans are fundamentally similar to primates emotionally and socially.
0:00 What is an alpha male?
1:25 ‘Chimpanzee Politics’ and the 1980s cultural fervor
2:20 The alpha male is not a personality type
3:34 Sex & gender: Donna the chimp
5:38 We’re apes with technology and college degrees
Read the video transcript ► bigthink.com/series/legends/a...
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About Frans de Waal:
Dr. Frans B. M. de Waal is a Dutch/American behavioral biologist and primatologist known for his work on the behavior and social intelligence of primates. His first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compared the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. His scientific work has been published in hundreds of technical articles in journals such as Science, Nature, Scientific American, and outlets specialized in animal behavior. His popular books - translated into 20+ languages - have made him one of the world's most visible primatologists. His latest books are Mama’s Last Hug (Norton, 2019) and Different: Gender Through the Eyes of a Primatologist (Norton, 2022). De Waal is C. H. Candler Professor Emeritus at Emory University and Distinguished Professor Emeritus at Utrecht University. He has been elected to the (U.S.) National Academy of Sciences as well as the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences. In 2007, Time declared him one of "The World's 100 Most Influential People Today."
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Is there anything you'd add to this perspective on 'alpha males'?
break up fights ? not always ! High level of empathy ? Not always? etc. Main thing = they , from the stars , have better expectance from social interaction in general . (agressive or not)
Just that "alpha" is a label for a position in the hierarchy, not a description of a certain type of personality. And as de Waals points out, all social animals have social hierarchies, and there is competition for the top spot (alpha). But that position can be occupied by a wide range of different personality types -- from the empathetic characters he describes to the more aggressive and manipulative types (no shortage of examples in history, business, and politics). Who rises to the top depends not just on individual characteristics (e.g., looks, social intelligence) but on the health the group itself.
@@Arven8 no
@@Arven8 Go to your local military base. There you will find very specific personality types in top leadership positions.
You will never find a shy, nervous or cowardly man leading other men. Never. Keep lying to yourself.
My takeaway-- we may be the fanciest ones around, but we are merely primates at the end of the day.
Anyone who declares themselves 'Alpha' automatically broadcasts their insecurity anyway, if you have to remind people that you consider yourself 'in charge', you probably aren't in charge.
Or maybe you are in charge.
@@adityashukla517 You may think you are, but if people are needing to be reminded that you are, then you aren't really making a good impression of being so.
That’s exactly why Trump constantly claims to be the best and most capable at everything. The question is whether he’s even aware of reality. I suspect not.
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
@@tommckellen342 I didn't say it was a myth. Kinda 'underhand' of you to say I did. What I said was that if you have to keep reminding people that you are in charge, you probably aren't in charge, because you have to keep reminding them that you are in charge. That's the issue with a lot of so called 'Alpha Males', they are scared that unless they announce their 'Alpha-Malehood', no-one will respect them, which kind of defeats the point.
Anyone that claims to be an alpha isn't.
💯
I definitely am.
That's because they're too busy stealing your lunch money
@@foxbat51 thanks for proving their points...YOU ARE THE NOT ALPHA! GOODBYE
Factual
"Empathy is the core of human morality "
Supremely underrated insight.
Suppressing others in order to build so called civilization has always been homo sapiens core. Empathy is definitely not its core.
@@gkacademy1594 statement still holds. Not all humans possess morality.
Also a dangerous thing to say, what about those of us that are "empathetically challenged" should we be dehumanized? Lacking strong empathy doesn't mean you can't act altruistically, it's a matter of principle.
@@csx3180 there are always exceptions to the norm. Nothing new about that.
It's a void statement because morality is relative. What it really means is "let me control you" but only really intelligent people will see through the manipulation.
This video really made me think of my dad..Growing up and now even more I see the way my dad is held with so much respect by the men & women around him (he has a lot of associates& friends). I truly feel if I’ve ever seen a human “alpha” it’d be someone like my him. He checks most boxes In this video. Highly empathetic and what I consider to be a gentle leader. people come to him for advise & guidance. he’s got lived experience to back his words, Is honest without being rude and has a way about him that pulls people in when he speaks. I love that guy. Maybe I’m biased !hahaha
I feel this way to towards my dad. ❤️ empathic, creative, quiet unless mad, protective, caretaker. He’s actually an undertaker too. But mom always had coffee, trash taken out, gas filled, working 60 hours a week, runs his own funeral home. Whatever we needed, material or communication, showing up for events, he was always there.
You guys are so sweet for your dad :)
you're the lucky one
It's beautiful to see that you* value your father so profound and genuinely. It makes me very happy that some people are fortunate to experience what many of us have not. I truly wish more men would see the beauty of aiming to be a gentle leader - or simply embracing gentility more - rather than bullying.
I doubt you're being biased, we tend to hold are parents to an extremely high standard and are usually very tough on them. I bet your dad is exactly the person you think he is, a great human being!
The term was originally coined by American Biologist David Mech in the 70s, specifically regarding wolf social structures. He later rejected the idea once research brought to light that wolf pack hierarchy is familial rather than based on any kind of trait - the mother and father wolf co-dominate the pack and as the younger wolfs grow, then split off and form their own packs. So, even the meaning for which the term was originally designated is already meaningless.
Just saved me some time. 👍
Aren't male gorillas alpha males?
just cause he retracted doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is still a dominant couple in that hiearchy, which is the alpha. Any tribe, there is always a leader...
If Marie Curie said radiation doesn't exist- you gonna believe her, or your lying eyes?
wouldn't you just call the 'father' an alpha-male, if he has much of the same roles as an alpha-male?
Also an interesting book of Frans de Waal: "Are we smart enough to know how smart animals are?"
Yes. Good read. My takeaway: No, we are not. :)
@@Arven8Anybody with this take has my respect. Understanding the futility of existing as a bein and not being so supremacist in any fashion regardless of what it's aimed towards is such a rare character trait.
@@AnimosityIncarnate Thanks. That is a nice thing to say, especially for someone who is animosity incarnate. :)
@@AnimosityIncarnateI am better than a slug.
I an unashamedly human supremacist.
Not all humans of course.
You are unashamedly misanthropic.
You do not have my respect.
People haters find it much easier to hurt people.
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
Absolutely - something we have totally forgotten in our society - leadership and power is about looking after your group, not exploiting them. Certainly, you can exploit and bully people if you want to have 'authority', but at the first opportunity, your group will drop you like a stone, and there'll be no help on the way down.
that's communism and it worked for half a century
The irony in this is that we are getting ruled and scammed by psychopathic elites, globally
This is exactly what happened in my group to the only guy that was given the most serial favors.
You can't exploit people who're stronger than you to begin with
Alpha males were first mentioned by Swiss wolf expert and ethologist Rudolf Schenkel, in 1947. The term was further promoted for wolves by David Mech before he began to question it. But now the term is back, also for wolves. There is, for example, an entire books series about alpha wolves by Rick McIntire, who studied the species in Yellowstone for 40 years, starting with “The Rise of Wolf 8.” His books convey the same message as I give in this interview: the personalities of alpha wolves vary greatly, there are nice ones and brutal ones.
Based on the nick, I take it you're the speaker? In that case, I'll take the liberty to (respectfully) offer my two cents - emboldened further by the fact I assume you probably don't care what a random person thinks or has to say, nor will even respond. If your whole point in 'debunking' the whole 'alpha male myth' (to use the words of the title) is a technical point concerning animal behavior couched on your own area of expertise, then fair enough - I don't really have a dog (or a bonobo) in this fight. My chagrin with this particular topic, however, is exemplified by the comment section: by mixing in politics and extrapolating observations to human behavior (and even morality!), people jump to all sorts of detrimental conclusions about themselves and our society, which are simply not warranted, and frankly backwards. I'm not an idiot, I realize that humans happen to be primates (a category scheme that _we_ came up with, BTW) - so it'd _seem_ that primatology has a lot to say about our nature; and it does, insofar as mere biology is concerned - but the relevance is stretched too far by materialistic assumptions that run deep both in academia and Western culture in general. It is important to keep in mind that there's an abyss of difference between such assumptions being mainstream, and them being actually true; that said, I find it questionable of BT to stretch your expertise to the realm of human politics and society, and present it as such, as opposed to merely your personal opinion - that is, if my impression of this presentation is correct. But if that's the case, unfortunately it wouldn't be this channel's first ideology-driven rodeo; I'm still subbed merely because I abhor echo chambers, poster children and catalysts of intellectual immaturity - even though, technically speaking, 'Big Think' qualifies as one 😂
Have a nice day 😀
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
Prof. deWaal. I agree with some of the points you made. but really overall I have to say I think "BigThink" -- as usual -- is erecting a gigantic strawman. I think you are playing into that. The presence of subtleties, or even outliers, does not in fact invalidate the core data and phenomena. The phenomena of alphas in many mammals, and certainly in primates is "not a myth." Also outliers and some variety of behavior do not invalidate the basic objective binary fact of gender.
The video title is a bit confusing. I actually read it as debunking the debunking (myth) of the alpha male. Essentially saying that there is such a thing as alpha males. The description says he's debunking the stereotype of what an alpha male is.
@@jamiedorsey4167 It is "BigThink" which is famous for inaccuracies and clickbait -- so no surprise.
So the alpha in the group reflects the group's values. If the group values cruelty and aggression, they will follow a bully, but if the group values empathy and fairness, they will follow a leader.
from what i have seen alphas are pushed into existence by regular humans collective psyche . the group members project certain things they want their leader to be. its not an instant process but its lifelong. you have been developing a alpha on your mind from birth. when time arises you will project your wishes onto a leader. take trump for instance, in our human history that was new because he was shallow but the group consciousness saw him as necessary evil. its somewhat 2 way street . alpha also works towards molding into this image that common people have in mind all their life.
Yea, but it's also situational.
Those who don't have geographical access to resources will definitely be less developed and helpful than those who have.
Follow the leader, or obey the leader or perhaps select, elect, support the leader by means of alliances.
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
but according to who a bully is not a leader? It depends on how you define what a leader means. if a society values cruelty over empathy, then the cruellest is set to be a leader. As for the definition of an alpha male, he's worthy to become a leader.
The biggest and most essential point in this video is that being “alpha”, aka the top of the social hierarchy, does not mean to be an assh*le. Usually these people will self proclaim alpha without garnering the respect needed. You can be a good person while having a strong will and sometimes it takes a strong willingness to do a harsh thing for the good of the social group. It does not mean you beat down everyone around you, it means to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of others and having them fulfill the roles they are best suited for
I think that’s called manipulation
@@bluemas5 no, manipulation is usually based on selfish gain without an overall outlook on the health of the group
you'd still have to defeat the insecure 'alpha' who would kick you puny arse , all sounds good on paper
In another video he talked about empathetic leaders and brutal ones. The empathetic leaders usually reigns for a long time, the others like the leader to lead them. While the brutal ones are usually overthrown much earlier, and in a brutal way, they don't end up well.
If you verbally state you are an alpha then most likely you are not an alpha
I’m from an African country and an alpha male in my community is a man that is compassionate, reliable, trustworthy and protective of his family and people. Someone that is respected and everyone knows that when he’s around every manly task/chore will be completed. He is kind and respectful also.
For instance if there’s a traditional ceremony, he will be the one to slaughter the animal, help with everything needed for the guests to feel comfortable like assemble stretch tents, chairs, pick up guests that might need to be picked up from specific locations, butcher the meat, buy groceries, etc..
The one that’s always talkative, promiscuous, a bully and arrogant is often considered useless.
Traditionally, same for the middle east. Being alpha meant serving the people/family. In return they would get *earned* respect and the last word in a important matters. It's an exchange not oppression.
@@user-rx7uh9mg4f very true! These type of men are a blessing to have around, things go and flow effortlessly.
You would have a very hard time adjusting to life in America if you came here
I'm such an alpha. I told my boss to step down because he wasn't an alpha... I got fired.
You're supposed to just start your own group not social climbing the alpha of an existing group.
If such a climb were to be "successful" then the group will significantly rearrange which usually results in its destruction.
So it's a good thing you got fired because if you had taken down the alpha you'd have put the entire group at risk.
This is nothing personal it's just that the group was shaped in a very specific way by this alpha and they have selected its members to fit their exact vision.
Being an alpha doesn't mean being an a**hole. People really don't get that.
„Being an alpha“ isn’t really a thing, that’s the takeaway from this video.
Well I guess not necessarily, but he does acknowledge at 2:30 that that could be the case, and indeed some are, and they are alphas despite that.
See how that works out if your in prison or other less civilised circumstances
@@tiberseptim8434The "takeaway" in this regard is that the alpha male is chosen by the group.
It means being an asshole when it's time to be an asshole, and being nice when it's time to be nice.
Alpha is decided by the group, so defining an individual as alpha not only tells us about the said individual, but also reflects the culture of the society
@@Dimitris_Balf technically 'alpha' just means leader here
@@Dimitris_Balf A good manager might be. One who lifts up the whole 'pack' and is respected and trusted to lead.
@@VivianFashionbabe good point! And it's probably a clue that Alpha Males aren't all they're sometimes cracked up to be that the most powerful officials and people in democratic societies often aren't simply the physically strongest, don't exhibit the most stereotypically 'alpha' personality, etc.
That's right. Who rises to the top of the hierarchy depends not just on inherent factors (e.g., attractiveness, social ability) but on the nature of the group. Some groups are toxic (e.g., the US congress), and it's not exactly the cream that rises to the top there. More like the one most adept at playing power games.
@@Dimitris_BalfHave you heard of democracy? Elections?
This takes me back to my banking career. I never felt like I belonged in the corporate world, but I lasted over a decade because I knew exactly what my job was, how to excel at it, and simply treated my coworkers with respect. I started from the very bottom as a paid intern at 15, and spent my 20s in charge of branch ops, vault keeping, and audits. I was regarded as a natural leader. I was even nicknamed "The Boss", despite me being relatively low on the totem pole. Occasionally a new hire would think it was some kind of joke; how could this quiet, soft-spoken, bookish, effeminate (the term they use these days is non-binary, which is accurate in retrospect) person possibly be the one that everyone defers to? I did my job, and did it extremely well. When I worked on the retail side, I was kind and charming with clients; people remember how you make them feel, and react accordingly. But I never sugarcoated things when it came to following procedures, nor did I try to sell them things they didn't need. Clients could tell I knew what I was doing, and appreciated my honesty and efficiency.
Switching to ops was a huge relief for me; all the rules were right there in black and white, with no gray areas for customer service issues. Whenever there was a balancing issue or a procedure that needed to be done/taught quickly and accurately, I was right there. If I found an error, I'd tell them directly how to fix it, and expect them to learn and do better next time. Plain and simple. The others trusted me implicitly, both working in the front and on breaks behind the scenes. I was bored out of my mind on most days, so I spent my spare time quietly reading and keeping to myself. For whatever reason, other members of the staff would come to me privately at lunch and talk about what was going on with them, how their day was going, what their stresses and fears were, what drama they were dealing with, etc. I guess they understood that I'd just listen to them without passing judgement or getting involved in office politics.
One of which was actually a new manager; she was a year younger than me, intelligent, motivated, and ambitious. The others were intimidated by her (someone nicknamed her The Shark Lady), but not me. I could tell that she was trying to make a strong first impression despite this being her first managerial assignment. One night on that first week, we had to stay late to count the vault, and the buses had stopped running by the time we were done. She drove me home, and we started talking. I asked her what kind of interests she had outside of work, and she plainly said, "Nothing, work is the only thing that matters." She was still trying to put on the strong act. I sighed and said, "I see. That's sad." She gave me a look of confusion, but didn't say anything else about it. Over the next couple of weeks, I would catch her staring at me, and the scowl would disappear for a moment. Whenever we happened to have the same lunchtime scheduled and it was just the two of us, she always seemed to lighten up. She understood that she didn't have to put on the act for me. Eventually, it reached a point where whenever we stayed late to count the vault, she'd immediately cheer up when the others left. We'd put on music and sing as we did the work; she was quite fond of Journey. Of course, there were plenty of gossip and rumors, and the others made sure we had plenty of alone time. But nothing ever went that far; we both kept it professional, and parted on good terms.
By the end of my career, I had worked with over a hundred staff members, had more experience than my final team combined, and helped teach some of my own managers. However, I suffered a severe mental breakdown as a result of depression over numerous issues in my personal life, as well as the company putting us in danger during the Occupy Wall Street movement. That whole thing would have to be an entirely separate post, and I won't go into that unless someone asks. I was well-respected, but they were justifiably worried. Despite everything I had done, I was forced into therapy (which saved my life), and was not allowed to return until I got better. Corporate health care covered 3 sessions, and I saw my first therapist for 6 months. After I had _just_ regained enough hope to live, I was unceremoniously terminated over the phone. After all, it's cheaper to get rid of an experienced, well-payed employee and replace them with someone younger who won't question anything. So after all of that, I ended up with nothing. So much for the "natural leader."
Cool story.
Thank you for sharing ♥
Sounds like you did the best you could in the circumstances you mentioned and life, as usual, was not exactly fair. You should be proud of what you accomplished and the bright influence you had on others. I hope you will prosper again.
Why you writing an essay on TH-cam comments 😂
I resonate with your story Sir, I have one similar to yours. I would like to know you more and have a good chat if you have the time. Thank you.
Alpha male = "I have no idea what it means to be a man, so I will pretend to be one"
I’m the equestrian world, the Alpha Mare myth was a thing for a long time, then later it was concluded that “leadership” was fluid and contextual. For example, it wasn’t that the horse leading others to water was a mare and therefore “Alpha Mare”, but simply that the horse leading others to water tended to be a pregnant and exceptionally *thirsty* horse. Situational not “leadership” and certainly not a “dominance hierarchy.” But this myth drove popular horsemanship programs for decades. Today, researchers conclude we see “dominance hierarchies” in domestic groups because they are competing for resources in a dysfunctional setting… a setting they did not evolve for. (E.g. small space, delivered “meals” rather than grazing, etc.)
Everything you typed sounds a lot more like your opinion rather than science.
Even if he didn't quote sources, it makes a lot of sense intuitively if you think about it a bit longer. It isn't that much different than what Mech wrote in his book when he debunked theory of dominance in wolves. The idea of an alpha male in a wolf pack came from studying feral dogs and wolves in captivity, who without being related and sharing any kind of bond, did not act as a familial unit as wild wolves do, but in turn used aggressiveness to enforce their social position and compete for food. So, if you look at it that way, it is not that much different than what the commenter wrote about horses.
Interesting, although de Wall would disagree, from what he says here. He says every social animal creates a hierarchy, and there is competition for the top spot (alpha). Although that spot may shift depending on context -- as in your example of the horse leading horses to water (but not making them drink) -- I don't think he would agree that social hierarchies are just a function of dysfunctional settings. De Waal seems to be saying it's a part of how all social animals function.
@@Arven8 for sure there are hierarchies… just that in wild *horses*, these hierarchies are more fluid/contextual, and as he said, *not* necessarily based solely on who is more aggressive / dominant. In domestic settings with scarce resources, the hierarchies DO tend toward he/she who is most “dominant/bossy” is at the “top”, and today the thinking is that this does not reflect the wild, feral, natural herd settings horses evolved in.
I guess it’s more like, “hierarchies, yes. Hierarchies based on alpha/dominance, not so much (no matter how much it looks like this in non-natural settings with resource-guarding, etc.)
@@KathySierraVideo Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense.
The study on Wolves did get appropriate results *for a prison environment.*
The wolves _weren't from the same pack,_ this was not a family and friends unit. The researcher bought wolves from all over and just threw them in together.
A bunch of strangers all captured and thrown together in a cage where the toughest calls the shots through threats (and actual) violence is a prison environment.
It's not really applicable to say everyday social interactions… … _*looks at the dysfunction in current American culture and ponders._
Wow that’s a fascinating detail that goes conveniently unmentioned.. I’ll have to check out the full work, there must be far reaching implications for criminal justice.
Which is the majority of our waking hours.
If we take out the confined spaces, and introduce potential for reproduction, the violent males still are historically less likely to be there for very long. Loyalty is produced through empathy and understanding, not through rigid compliance, that's how you build resentment.
In a social species, that relies on hierarchical structures with no external oppressive variables that are restrictive like a prison, empathy and leadership is what drive us towards the path and success we see today, not unbridled fear and violence
Sounds a bit like Philip Zimbardo's 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment.
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
In american prisons maybe or other uncivilized shitholes with equally barbaric prisons … in civilized countries that whole alpha male alpha top dog strongest crap doesnt exist .. idiots like that get mental support and healthcare …
An alpha male isn’t someone who brings other people down, it’s someone who lifts other people up.
I agree, but definitely hate the "alpha male" term. I think a good male is strong enough to want to see others succeed and live their best life, however that may be. Sounds so easy, but it almost seems like a rarity today.
Are you talking about animals or humans? Bc animals dont give two f*cks about others. An alpha just wanna have all females for himself and breed. And kill every other male in the process or at least keep them under his foot.
It's neither. There is no "alpha"
@@tungstenanderson5991 You are talking about humans right? Bc to denie alpha's existence in the animal world, especially between mammals its the ultimate woke dellusion.
@@notname4414 Well.. but your reply is special as is that extra chromosome, so you get a pass.
"You may want to be an alpha male, but if your surrounding people don't see you as that, it's not going to happen."
True that
Empathy is the glue of society. Nice.
Empathy at large (towards people not close to you) is mostly grounded on common culture and race.
@@GordonLFlol ok
Said no one throughout human history until 10 years ago.....freggin mindless kids these days....
@@Lunarquay Yes, really. Cognitive empathy is largely enhanced if you share the same culture since you can better understand what the other people feel. And of course, what we call race empathy is mostly looks.
@@GordonLF no not really. No more comments please.
A message to “alphas” everywhere: If you think you’ll flip her wig, just because you’re talking big, the only word for you is “pig”.
People can get to the top quickly with cruelty but they almost never last. If you wanna be a great leader then you have to have empathy and fairness respect, because that is what satisfies the group of people and creates loyalty and lasting cooperation.
The alpha gorillas and monkeys give the most hugs of any other males
Not quite. I'm sure beta males have plenty of empathy but they're still not effective leaders....tell me why.
Yeah, probably gorillas and monkeys give more hugs than any other animal bc ... you know... they HAVE ARMS!!
"The alpha gorillas and monkeys give the most hugs of any other males"
and alpha unicorns are giving the sweetest kisses of all
Happy to see this in print and in bio format. Thanks for showing this clarity on a subject that has caused harmed and gaslighting damage to so many. This doc need shared broadly.
Genetically, we are equally close to chimps and bonobos. Chimpanzees and bonobos share 99.6% of dna with humans. This guy just showed that chimp alpha males are actually collaborative and empathetic. And for bobobos, the alpha males are actually female. So yeah, he did contradict the popular misconception that the alpha male has to be male and a bully.
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
@@tommckellen342I never mentioned the word myth. I think you’re responding to someone else’s comment.
@@free22 Your ¨popular misconception¨ sounded like the word ¨myth¨ to me too.
@@GordonLF I don’t believe the concept of “alpha male” as it is popularly conveyed I’m media - you know, that the most dominant male takes over by brute force. That isn’t how real life works. This video contradicts that notion too, thus the title. “Alpha male” for some people could never mean a cooperative person, much less a female, as this video suggests.
Yea and humans are still different to fight with martial arts.
This talk somehow made me feel better about our species. Thank you, Dr. de Waal.
What, that we’re still basically apes?
@@domjalbasically? we are
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
@@domjal sweet urang puntang baby
Of course it made you feel better about yourself. Thats the whole point of this video. To make people like you feel better 😂
Thank you for this clarification. Too many men see "alpha male" as a man who is a bullying misogynist toward women, who refuses to view others as equals, with zero self-reflection or humility. They think being a jerk and calling themselves "alpha" will make them so, while a real alpha doesn't need to say the words.
The answer is almost always “variability “ , “it depends” “sometimes yes, sometimes no” - I wish the internet society could better communicate that. Unfortunately we’re all caught it opposite extremes. But I do notice that in person, we can see nuance so much easier. It’s difficult to have disdain for someone up close.
“You may want to be an alpha male, but if your surrounding people don’t see you like that, it’s not going to happen”. Same could be said for being a man or a woman.
A great argument for why it's good policy to shun transphobic dirtbags.
I was disappointed at his obvious contradictions.
alpha is a social status though, so it is defined through social relations.
you can - and will - still be a man or a woman if you're the last person on Earth (so it's independent of external perception).
you can't really be an "alpha" if you're the last person on Earth (the concept no longer makes sense).
I remember reading somewhere that typically “alpha” behavior was a sign of parents having young children and protecting them. Curious to see if this video elaborates in that
Well no: technically if we taking evolutionary when taking from original human behaviour
Alpha males are the males that are the strongest males that spread the seeds far and wide:
They don’t stay and look after kids lol and often are seen killing offspring so can breed with their mothers. / kill male young so can’t compete with them
They fight and sometimes kill other males so can breed a lot during breeding season and have many of their offspring’s around.
Hence came the beta male - they also wanted to breed with females so basically as an exchange would bring her and her children food / looks after them.
So beta males because they stuck around where able to have their own children while the alpha males are on the F boy shit
At least this is the theory of why monkeys started walking upright - cause the beta males would gather alot of food and bring it to females as an offering to accept them sexually
@@Dimitris_Balf not a good start for a debate
@@Dimitris_Balf I find that saying one thing can mean different things to different people cheapens the discussion, but semantics do exist I get that.
@@Dimitris_BalfDamn bro guess we've gotta accept all opinions with equal validity... the earth is flat from some people's objectively wrong subjective interpretation. Personal opinions don't Trump evidence and facts of the matter. Alphas simply don't exist in the human species. Unless we count the "chief" as such, but the chief at this point in the world would be the leader of a given country. I still listen and respect people's opinions, and I'm engaged in all discourse with nuance, but there's certain times where opposing views can do more harm then any good, and that's when I jump into the conversation.
complexity between apes and an unicellular creature is like 100 miles. And in the same time complexity between humans and apes are like 100 000 000 miles. So take this biological analogues in the view of this.
The less I think we are a highly evolved species, the more empathy I am capable of.
Evolution does not describe an improvement.
He said people usually refer to alpha males as a bully. I don't believe I've ever heard that. People usually refer to bullies as bullies. Alpha males are usually referred to as a joke.
I'll beat ur azz luciano
A LOT of people do conflate those two things. Alphas are seen as dominant and strong which can sometimes (though not always) coincide with certain characteristics seen in bullies. These people are all idiots of course but a lot of people do buy into that crap. In reality bullies are usually very insecure which is why they feel the need to belittle others so they can feel better about themselves.
@@distantraveller9876 I'll beat ur azz axel!
@@StopLGBT-ss7rw Incel alert
I wonder if self-described alpha males are aware of how often women make fun of them behind their backs, thinking they're compensating for an inferiority complex. Anyone who doesn't want to be seen as an arrogant fool or an insecure loser desperate to prove something should probably stay away from the term. Even 'sigma' is becoming a stand-in for alpha among those who want the silly sense of pride without the stink of the terminology. But hey, I still love watching sigma edits of popular characters.
Agreed. Especially hilarious are those that refer to themselves as a "chad" or even better a "giga chad". More like a giga-joke.
@@scott80ca I just hope they don't all really take it seriously. I mean, some of them have to be just memeing, right?... Right?
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
@tommckellen342 Well-written. Lovely comment.
I'm wondering if you were meaning to reply to someone else, though. I certainly didn't call anything a myth, nor did I even deny the existence of a more positive conception of an 'alpha male'. I chose my words carefully when I said "self-described alpha", as these are the sort that tend to match the negative stereotype and get made fun of, as the beings that are most worth aspiring to simply exude the sought after characteristics, they don't have to announce it. That there are very real dominant characteristics that are only a benefit to those who possess them is undeniable. And if they have the kindness to match, they may represent the best of what a human can be. None of that has anything to do with brash folk who are hoping to gain some kind of social currency with people for using a label.
Hell, it's not even as if calling yourself an alpha diminishes any of the positive characteristics you might have. It just speaks to a place of lack within, a desire to be immediately recognized or to gain some sort of power over others that one feels they don't have if they don't announce it. That's their road to walk, their challenge to overcome, and none of us are perfected beings. Even the most obnoxious asshole should be seen as a work in progress, afforded human dignity and the opportunity for growth. Doesn't mean that folks won't still make fun of people for what is on the outside a very obvious faux pas, but this is to be expected, as irony drives humor. I was merely musing about whether or not they are aware of this fact when so often the intent is to impress and so often the opposite is achieved.
Again, I enjoyed your comment! We'd probably agree on much.
But would women respect the guy from the opposite end of the spectrum?
absolutely not
I was so fascinated by him and his findings, but just discovered that he had passed away in March. Rest in Peace, Frans de Waal🐒 Your scientific legacy lives on!
He explained what an alpha male is in less that 1 minute and 25 seconds. I thought that I would have to "debunk" his opinion. However, he got it absolutely right.
Given he was one of the original progenitors of the term, I suppose he would!
captain America, batman and a host of other "hero" characters are always kind and protect those weaker than them, often at the cost to themselves
Reading comments, eating popcorn, waiting for my spaceship to pick me up. 👽🚀🍿
Can I come?
Sorry, we're gonna be late: flat tire 👽
For all I know, I'm an extraterrestrial that has amnesia.
Where we going this century, captain?
I believe in leadership, earning respect, or even in being so personally effective and self-sufficient that you don't need much in community to get by. In my experience being empathetic, capable, and charismatic is much closer to 'alpha male' than being an aggressive freak or a showboater, but aggressive freaks have their place.
while the "alpha male" concept is obviously a gross oversimplification (especially in popular culture)...
1. someone has first to create and protect an environment safe and stable enough for empathy and similar traits to be rewarded (rather than abused) WITHIN this environment. this is not guaranteed, and requires some degree of aggression. for example, to repel "aggressive freaks" (either from outside or inside the society/community).
2. "alpha males" are supposed to be charismatic by definition. that's one of major defining characteristics - certainly not being a "freak".
That's what I see all the beta males saying here....lol...
Part of being alpha male is laughing at beta males....lol.... how often do you laugh at beta males?
It's hard to be in a leadership position without empathy and a community
@@jfrioux are you a leader?
How to be an Alpha in three easy steps:
1. Watch "Avatar - The Last Airbender".
2. Observe the character of Uncle Iroh.
3. Use him as a role model for life.
When a negative thought has you in its undertow, break the circuit. Interrupt the pattern simply by breathing in. Focus your attention elsewhere until the negative thought no longer owns you. You own it.
And you can decide what to do with it. Journal. Walk. Have a conversation with it. Treat it with compassion. Your breath will buy you these options and many more.
Good practice. A negative thought will always be lacking in forgiveness.
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
What makes it negative?
@@BBinkie anti-love.
@@robertdouglas8895 How do we know what love is? Both these terms seem subjective.
Unfortunately alpha males aren't broadcasting on social media or influencers.... Just be a male and protect lives
@@kris3451ut it's just a word that's used to describe a leader. Words carry with them positive and negative connotations, sometimes they are context dependant, and sometimes they are nothing but positive or negative.
Alpha male serves ZERO purposes outside of serving to perpetuate the negative connotations. You can think otherwise, but you would be wrong, there's more than enough literature and studies done on men that commit violence in all forms, and how Masculinity and it's terribly rigid gender roles induce MOST if not ALL of men's violent tendencies.
What continue using a word, that carries with it so much baggage, when you COULD just use "leader". Especially when WOMEN can be leaders, and alpha male cuts them out of the picture entirely, unless you don't care about men commiting violence... I'm this video, he should use it, because he's the man who even started this shit. It's context dependant as a good thing. But people are generally stupid, and have no ability to deduce context dependant usage of language, the amount of semantically illiterate arguments you can get into, where people just have zero idea what you're saying or you somehow hurt their egos by debating them, is so sadly emblematic of the alpha male term lol
I very much like his analysis of sex and gender in primates, and how we should learn from their ‘no fuss’ attitude.
Yeah. Lets be apes. They also throw shit at eachother and eat babies. 👍
Makes you consider the culture war being raged right now doesn't it... it seems 'fuss' is all some people have going on in their lives
@@daveyboots79 its inevitable. A large portion of humans are meant be trash. A small portion are useful. It's always been this way
"Empathy is the glue of our society."
Said no empire in the history of mankind ever. lol
fear seems to be the glue of our society
People misunderstood the word "alpha" and just took it to mean "bully" as he says, but the term just basically means "LEADER" or "Top ranking person"
Very nice at 5:00 the visual effects to illustrate what the author meant with the change and influence of the environment on the perception of the gender spectrum, as well as of time. Cheers to the author and everyone from BigThink, but from me extra kudos to the people who thought and implemented that in the video!
What did we debunk here? I think it's well known that the alpha male is well liked and charismatic. It just seems we focus on the potential negative traits that come from being in that position than the positive ones
Majority of men’s spaces coin being an alpha male as all the negative traits and none of the good ones that he mentioned here, empathy and stopping conflict is usually given to be a feminine trait.
@@raqimkNo thats Not true at all
@@marvin2678 yes, yes it is. if you go to MANY MANY men's groups, most don't respect empathy or any gentle traits. I think it's finally changing (maybe) but I look at A LOT of men's spaces and most of them are sadly misled to believe a lot of gross things.
Well, many people now associate the term "Alpha Male" to a very dominant personality, like a barbarian king who kills many enemies, instantly decapitate anyone who disobeys his order and sleeps with many women.
@@marvin2678 Unfortunately alpha males today in humans means people who are very rigid and intolerant to different perspectives. They are aggressive and controlled by emotions such as anger. Empathy, openness, altruism, are not traits that are often linked to alpha males
fam he literally speaking facts , when he said its a social construct of society i was like bro no lies straight scientific facts i wish people understood this more.
Frans de Waal died a week ago due to cancer. It's good he did this interview and shared his thoughts and perspectives before his death.
We didn't so much "debunk" Alpha Male as "define" Alpha Male.
This whole alpha male thing has similarities to girls being into star signs. Oh look I'm such an alpha male == Oh look I'm such a scorpio
have you ever read a market prediction report? predicting the future, interpreting charts, caring about relative position by the minute. Rising, falling. There are bears and bulls there.
What is the problem with star signs though? It's not that it is a description of personality, though it is, it is that the time of year born does not by the effects of star alignment affect personality. Yes they both describe personality, there is no problem with that. You are doing the same thing as seeing similarities between nazi policies and democrat policies, nazis think that theft should be criminalized, so do the democrats, nazi=bad, democrats share similarities therefore the democrats=bad.
Thats an interesting comparison/ paralel. People certainly have a fascination for categories and identity.
"Alpha ideology" seems to value competition and hierarchy where "star sign ideology" seems to value cosmic fate and uniqueness.
One's category systems seem to showcase personal values rather than absolute truths
@@hab0272 Subjective vs Objective, if you will. Female vs Male values. Interesting.
It's called Astrology, and there's nothing wrong about it. The wrong thing is that people rely heavily on it. There's no scientific proof that the alignments of stars can affect someone's personality.
Not y'all posting this after Andrew tate gets arrested😂
He already got released lol
U r using what internet explorer
The Great Tate Deflate!
as a filipin we have no problem with people that has a different gender identity. What makes us feel irritated is when they began to get entitled and loud about it.
Im so glad to hear these thoughts of a person who studies the subject, and who is not somebody who just hears, it takes it, runs with it, and bashes people with it.
Prof de Wall, I found your TED talk on Alpha males part way through the Trump administration. I immediately picked up on your insight and have pointed out ever since how he is antithetical to the notion of being an alpha. Learning this was very encouraging to me. Thank you VERY much for this insight. Btw, I'm also now reading your book, "Mama's Last Hug." I'm learning a lot from it, and from you. 💖
Trump Derangment Syndrome? Still to this day? Come on...
@@haitaelpastor976 I know right....
Proxy wars for profit (Ukraine), a deeply corrupted EVERYTHING.....but booooo Trump.
It's depressing.
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
@@haitaelpastor976This pathetic cut and paste talking point? Still to this day? After all that's happened? An even harder "come on." Your comment shows nothing but loyalty to a washed up elderly man who can't even find the time to watch a makeup application tutorial. Other folks have morals and ethics they consult. You consult an ex-reality tv show host who may end up in prison.
On the other hand, Jane Goodall, who also spent a lot of time with chipanzees, compared Trump to an alpha male chimpanzee.
I would like to see the long version of this interview. I don't think this 8 min summary does the topic justice
After he said how gender variability isn't an issue in non-human primate societies, I'm thinking that gender variability in itself is not so much a problem in our societies as that the people garnering power will use any difference (race, religion, mental illness, etc.) to create divisiveness and fear in their followers to increase their own power.
Many years ago, when I was young, I went into a bookstore that was closing down to peruse their heavily discounted books. I picked one for $2.99 (I still have the book, and the price tag is still on it) that sounded interesting. It was called Chimpanzee Politics. I loved the book and came to know Mama, Nikki, Spin, Wouter, and the rest. Dandy was my favorite. I never expected to see the name Frans de Waal again.
A couple of years ago I happened upon a TEDTalk by de Waal about chimpanzee morality. I use this video in my classroom when we examine the origins of morality. I 'm glad he has set the record straight (as all good science should). I think there's a lot for humans to learn from his discoveries on now primal morality apparently is.
Mama, perhaps the most powerful of her Arnhem Zoo community in Chimpanzee politics, died just recently (2016). I was amazed that a chimp from so far back in my life had still been alive all those years.
He can debunk the Alpha male myth but he's gonna have a hard time debunking the Sigma male myth
But Sigmas don't give a f anyway😆
What about the Ligma male? 😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Bro said real alphas have sympathy 😂😂
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
Excellent piece and research, I've forever been interested in the 2nd place of social constructs, the wannabe. How that relationship holds or doesn't, a bit like peace time, no wars, but one is coming.
One thing I've learned over the years is that is someone is telling you they are an alpha male, they are not an alpha male.
"He who cannot be a good follower, cannot be a good leader" Aristotle
Archetypes exist. Changing the label doesn't change the fact that we can observe these social hierarchies everywhere. Behind every stereotype is some modicum of truth. Competency, hyperproductivity, leadership etc. tend to come with certain personality traits. Why does this arouse so much anger? 🤔
Too inteligent Comment, stop doing it because No american understand This
Because people use the "alpha male" narrative as an excuse to be an egomaniacal douche.
because people will tend to resent what they ought to be but are not. That's why there's so much discontent against Christians in America.
So fascinating! And what an important read. I Ordered the book right away ❤
It's strange how much energy people put into debunking an issue of semantics, and a misinterpretation of what people really mean who are using the term be it correctly, or incorrectly simply because they don't like the terms being used. The concept of a leader is not and has never been a position one can appoint to themselves, but is bestowed upon an individual by others, and even though there are people out there that consider themselves leaders that are not, does not negate the fact that leaders in groups and societies exist.
Can you elaborate
Well as a intern in two big companies in the netherland but i have a great experience with people from higher position. You can talk to them and they are kind to give to advice. The people who are more likely to be mean aren’t that good in there position the people that were the most competent are humble because they don’t need to prove that they are competent because they are confident in the field or ability
It's not about being alpha it's about being assertive, confident and proud to be productive male.
I don't know if this works in humans all that much. I've encountered people like this guy describes in jobs and rarely are they in positions of authority. Those that are are usually in middle-management and while they tend to be admired by the low-level workers like me because they're cool with us, I notice they get treated really horribly by others, especially people who are shitty themselves. It's almost like their admirable qualities provoke hate and disgust in them, and they are attacked for it.
I wander how much capitalism has to do with this as in the extent to which capitalism & empathy are incompatible when taken to the extreme which breeds competition as opposed to empathy. I'm in middle management & I'm treated horribly by 1 senior manager; she's certainly no alpha though she likes to believe she is lol
@@Tified967 I think of it like the Triforce from Zelda: it's only as good or evil as the person using it. Capitalism might require good character to not be destructive, but the power within it tempts the greedy.
It's called jealousy
Thank you for this video. I always thought myself as a beta male from the media I've surrounded myself in. However, in the Air Force my airmen and other colleagues would consider me as an Alpha and I never understood why.
It’s really beta to need another man to tell you you’re alpha
@@pantsonfire2216 What actually is beta is to not consider other's people opinion about you and to proclaim without any outside input that you're the real alpha.
@@iridescentraindrops Caring about other’s people opinion’s makes you even lower than a beta
@@pantsonfire2216 If you're in charge of a group, you have to consider their needs, thoughts and opinions about you and your direction, because they depend on it in some ways. On a smaller scale I agree that you shouldn't be guided by some people's perspective on your life but there are certain social rules which we all obey and our behavior is corrected if we stray away from them. Also if you're not listening and communicating effectively most of the time with other people that would turn you into a lone wolf, not the alpha one (if we go with the wolf analogy).
@@iridescentraindrops I respect doing right by your own but caring about other people’s opinions means you’re enslaved by their perception of you and therefore can’t call yourself a free man. A leader of any kind although able to consider other points of view at the end of day does not care what the majority thinks. Many times a leader must make hard decisions that will inevitably make people hate him. Take into account that the vast majority of people are in fact very dumb and should be ignored
My whole friend group kicked out the "Alpha male" that made all the plans simply because he'd get mad about things from his past and he would get pissed at me just because I looked sad sometimes, usually from having to deal with him.
When he said 6 goslings i imagined 6 kens fighting against ecah toher 😂😂😂
I'm happy for this clarity on an "Alpha." Often times people think the Alpha is the "tough" person who likes to jump into things and make irrational decisions without thinking. There are times in marriages and families where the wife is the real alpha and she makes the dad feel like he's the alpha because of his insecurities and weak ego.
A lot of males and some females too think being an alpha or self-proclaiming to be an alpha means you have access to the best of everything and that you can order people around.
Anybody that people gravitate to because of the person's will power, strong sense self identity, ability to help the downtrodden and a general sense of service for a greater good..... should be considered an alpha.....instead of all this sexualized methods of identifying or classing individuals.
Real alphas don't babble on about the way things should be....You're an idealist.... alphas are realists...
Any man who must say “I am the King” is no king
I've noticed that whenever someone attempts to "debunk" the concept of the alpha male, they end up "debunking" what, at least amongst those who systematically study human sociosexual hierarchies, very few mean by that term.
A lot of people feel threatened by men empowering themselves.
Thus, they attack these men using strawmen.
He lost me at the gender part...
He lost you when pushed play.
Oh, so alpha males don't traffic humans? Hear that Andrew Tate?
We need to resolve these problems as men and women together and as a global community... The single most important thing to create more Peace on Earth is fostering empathy... Understanding and sharing the feelings of others can lead to Compassion, Tolerance, and ultimately, a more Peaceful Coexistence ... Empathy forms the foundation for resolving many of these conflicts ... Empathy promotes more understanding for EVERYONE to work towards a more harmonious life in all global communities ... Please help promote more Peace on Earth 🌎 Not more war ✌️
yes, peace, empathy and love and all of that ... but a "global community" is, at best, a fallacy. This idea that people can just "come together and work together" works for people close to one another, but anyone that lives the reality of an attempt of "global community", knows that statistically speaking, it doesn't work.
So what's the solution ? stay realistic, have different communities all around the world and let's stop pushing for "forced globalization"
I had the pleasure of sitting in on a talk Dr. de Waal gave at a research center I worked at in Atlanta years ago. He was great then and nothing has changed. Love this guy and his research!
What a great and highly relevant video. Talking about alphas (leaders) and gender spectrum,
Well explained and showing that what matters for a successful leadership, SHOULD be based on empathy first. I wonder if animals will also manipulate others in order to undeservedly become the alpha, the leader and if so why.
If not there’s an argument to make that we’re more stupid than other conscious beings, voting for power loving individuals who sell you what they would do for society and who clearly wish to lead to become our leaders, rather than those with empathy who automatically become loved and respected for what they’ve already done. In my school I remember the “class president” was voted between all students, so anyone could end up winning the vote not just those who wanted to. We were not forced to take “the job” and now it seems to me this system is better than any voting system I know of.
This is why many people say when they’re voting that anything to choose from sucks and some people end up not going to vote as they don’t feel connected to any candidate.
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
@@tommckellen342 I’m not sure I fully understand what you’re saying (some parts yes). But I’m pretty sure you must have misinterpreted at least some of what I’m saying. I’m basically saying those who wish to be alphas are not necessarily alphas and those who lead are not necessarily the best leader but in our society we can only choose from those who put themselves in the position to be chosen. While in the animal world the alpha/leader only gets to this position by having empathy for the group over himself. By having true care. And I believe that sounds smarter to me although maybe not easy to adapt.
@@tommckellen342
and I’m personally not fixating on the fact of strength or weakness. I just mentioned (like in the video) that strength is not the main factor. I’m also not saying that physically Strong individuals are or can’t be good, but again not that relevant for the question who’s alpha in comparison to compassion.
I also never said alphas are unkind. Actually the complete opposite I said d their main trait is empathy (in the animal world and I’m some human constructs, but not always in politics).
I said the problem is that I believe many if not most empathetic people wouldn’t put themselves in the spotlight as much aka participating in an election in order to „fight“(be a salesman and often lie to impress the mass) to become a leader.
And that’s problematic.
You seem to be fixated on something…
And yes of course Yin and Yang can coexist in a person in fact likely in all persons as nature is based on balance.
Not sure why you bring this up like I said the opposite. And I have no idea about what group I’m „fond of“ or what you’re talking about there. Really gives me the impression you read someone else’s reply or something as you’re completely wrong when talking about my point of view.
Do animals (specifically non-primate animals) _admire_ other animals? How would we know?
It's weird to me how no one in the comments is pointing out how the point of discussion went from the origins and definition of the term Alpha Male. To how men and women have vastly overexaggerated biological differences, and that gender is a spectrum defined by how masculine or feminine an individual feels. What does any of that have to do with an alpha male? By definition we are talking about males here no? Seems like a very strange deviation from the topic to me, but maybe im too ignorant to see the correlation.
Great breakdown by Frans. The issue with the alpha male term I find is that there isn’t one definition
1) Some say you have to lead, in particular a family so are single men capable of being alphas?
2) Someone who takes charge and leads others but do my methods have to matter? If I take charge like Genghis Khan, am I not a alpha because of the violent means to get power and control
"My studies show that an alpha, actually is a black, independant, lesbian women"
-This guy
There are many different kinds of alphas, or leaders. Some are a holes, and others are more chill. Some can be humorous while others more intellectual. These are just different personalities but still both exhibiting a prominent position in the social hierarchy. People shouldn't get hung up on the alphabro culture stuff. There are many different kinds of leaders out there, like them or not.
💯
Alpha male and female always struck me as a complete crock.
Debunked ? Defined, more like.
He doesn't mention the enormous difference between us and the other animals that we are self conscious. We know we are alive and that we are going to die. We have a sense of self. Hence we are consumed by the idea of identity and this is behind our destructive nature.
That's typically what religious people think. Despite the science, as per usual.
I am a perfect example of an alpha-male.
I was voted as leader of a videogame team for competition, which went straight to #1 and dominated.
I was the best player, I was charismatic, nice, I made all the plans and ran all the practices;
but then........it all went to my head and I started acting like my mom, which wasn't a good thing.
I lead three different teams on three different games, and each one was the champion of the league on Xbox and Xbox 360.
But not being raised properly led to me being a dick and so things didn't work out.
You live and you learn.
Now I'm a professional poker player.
Funny how nobody talks about competence. The more a group claims to value alpha male culture, their competence drops dramatically
Speaking among males, the whole concept of dominance between alphas and betas is ridiculously useless. The defining line is between men who choose to govern themselves to the highest degree and those who don't. That's where it's drawn. It becomes so obvious when you see this, because true "Alphas", don't go around parading that fact. No words, you see it in their actions, because they are too busy chasing perfection within themselves, that at the same time persuades others to do the same around them.
But without a stable conception of what an alpha male is that we can all agree upon, then it’s meaningless.
We should have a clear idea of what makes an ideal (non role-specific) male leader.
We should also have a model of ideal _physical_ masculinity, so that we know what to value. And so far as this ideal can be realised by men who fall from its mark (without their resorting to absurd physical augmentation), then we have a realisable pathway to physical self-development for men of various ages.
We should also know what masculinity is _behaviourally_ so that we know how to act as men: which behaviours to disincentivise and which to encourage.
Not really. If you don't have followers, you are not an alpha. Alphas by definition are leaders of the group. If they aren't leading a group -- if they are just "governing themselves" -- then they aren't in the alpha position. (I'm not saying the alpha position is something to be sought out. I have no interest in it myself.)
@@Arven8 I think that’s a perfectly reasonable interpretation of ‘alpha’ in a general sense. A leader. That’s probably the most commonly intended meaning of the word. However, not only does it beg ‘what _is_ a leader?’, but we already had a word for it. So an alpha male has to be something else. That brings me to idealised masculinity- be that physical or behavioural (the latter of which might be sub-categorised into the mental, psychological and emotional).
@@117Industries I don't see why "alpha" has to mean something else, just because we have a word (leader) that means basically the same thing. We have lots of words that mean basically the same thing. Thesauruses are full of them. So I don't really see the problem.
...
The problem as I see it is that "alpha" has so many weird, unhelpful connotations now (because it was co-opted by business and politics, book writers, internet dating and masculinity gurus, etc.) that it is going to be impossible to get it back to the simple, straightforward meaning de Waal is talking about.
@@Arven8 Because when we deal with language thoroughly and precisely, we eek out distinctions between synonyms. A thesaurus is full of synonyms, aye, but _synonyms_ meaning _similar_ meaning, not identical. They have similar spheres of association, but aren’t the same thing. And those subtle distinctions are often important and can lead to significant differences with deep investigation.
You’re right that the term was coopted by these kinds of actors, and for expediently selfish reasons, but the problem is that if linguistic drift has reduced the term into what’s effectively a substitute for ‘leader’, then we’ve obviously lost the meaning of the original concept. And that matters because the original idea might well have been critical for healthy male development.
I’d go so far as to say that if we’d not lost sight of what an alpha male is and was, that the Matrix (as in the Hollywood film trilogy) would never have played out the way it did. We humans had lost sight of who we were and what we were capable of. We were decadent, and created something lazily and fecklessly which we were too corrupt to handle. It cost us. Big time. Neo happened, but he played out a controlled revolution which was designed to effectively capture those of us too curious and wilful to remain captive within the program. But Neo’s revolution failed, because it was contained. Neo was stoic, calm, loving, loyal, and wilful beyond measure. But he was a beta male. He wasn’t an alpha. And that’s the issue. Beta males create hard times. And Neo’s failed revolution created hard times for the ensuing flocks of captured minds.
A male leader *has* to be an alpha male in his leadership role when the fate of the species rests on that leadership. Unfortunately, we’d lost sight of that truth even before Christianity arrived.
You might mock the Giga Chad meme, or the idea that ideal guys should be naturally testosteronic, bullish, hung, dominant, aggressive, etc., but these _are_ the prominent markers of masculine vitality, and therefore that’s what masculine vitality _is_ , and always _has been_ and _must be_ . If you lose that, you have a beta male leader. And that leads to “Neonic” revolutions- the eternal recurrence, or the ouroboros.
I cringe when guys call themselves alpha males
I knew this voice sounded familiar! He is the one who had that TED Talk about primates' reaction to unequal pay. What a pleasant surprise
'Protecting the underdog and breaking down fights'. Definitely not what most managers do in the workplace then. Most of them are bullies, or friends of bullies, and either enable them or encourage them.
As others have noted, the idea of alpha male wolves has largely been debunked in the wild -- in the wild wolves run in family units. in captivity they will seem to form hierarchies as were observed, but in the wild, that's just mom and dad. It's also worth noting that we have seen a huge range of adjustments to chimp and bonobo political structures based on environmental changes. A lot of what we thought were 'innate' about them turns out to be far more variable and, well, maybe cultural is not the right word but then, we are apes, so talking about culture might not be incorrect here. I know they did studies in Baboon species with two completely different social structures and if transplanted into the other group baboons adapt to and perpetuate the social order of their adopted troop rather than that of their birth species.
It's important to regularly reevaluate what preconceived notions we come to animal research with as well, and what human culture we might be taking to the table. Recently read an interesting article about how its possible female mate selection competition is far more widespread than we thought simply because we didn't look for it, and that if we start to we see it more than we thought. I also recently read about how we used to assume deer had a leader choosing the direction they would go, but new research found that actually what they had was basically an election tallier, someone who would watch and see which way different herd members were acting or looking or moving and indicate the majority. Democracy in deer is certainly not something I'd have thought to look for, and I'm glad someone else did that work and questioned that assumption.
This natural presentation and behavioral diversity has been noted in almost every species with these bimodal sex traits and presentations too. Fascinating stuff.
I really enjoyed reading your comment. Thank you. Democracy in deer - fascinating indeed.
Bimodal sex traits.
Please catch lyme disease.
But it seemed like men were watching who women chose to be with as the catalyst for the alpha male phenomenon. Men didn’t seem to care about it until they assumed that’s what women wanted as their first choice.
Interesting..
Asking a woman what type of male does she prefers is like asking a male if he prefers a submissive woman or an aggressive woman. It's pointless because not all men get what they want and certainly not all women get what they want in relationships.
@@muadhnateactually false
@@ShadyDoggLook up female preference for long versus short term relationships.
@@WoodlandGangsta-fm7xyBut also, what you even want isn't even actually what you want 😂 it's highly socially and circumstance relative. You can even get kinda autistic and argue that determinism sort of heavily implies no free will, and due to the fact your a product of an endless stream of prior circumstances, your tastes are not even your own ever 😂
Alpha males means nothing in the social structure in 2023 where 20 year old men are earning more reacting to game trailers than any of these self proclaimed alphas.
A biologist who thinks sex has nothing to do with gender? 😧
I think was saying it has less to do with sex than we thought before. Not that it has nothing to do with it.
This really says a lot about how empathy is truly a glue of society. 👍🌆
But it must not be exaggerated. Sometimes it is not the best option.
Its overated
Why would it be a myth? Like all social sciences and like the animal kingdom, there are fuzzy lines, but it doesn't mean that such concepts are not patent and clear. The trick is to stop getting sucked in by people who say you are stuck in 'weakling status' or any other status. This has never been true and film and culture used to remind people that everyone could develop characteristics of strength, which many 'alphas' will be born with. No one ever specifically said that alphas were unkind. That is 1 archetype out of 100 which you are fixating on. Were the ancient Greek, epically strong, muscled and mentally powerful archetypes unkind? Don't think so.
It's a very underhand thing to deny people the growth they can have in life. Of course, if you want to keep some of the sensitivities, which helped you connect to certain groups who you are fond of, when you were a meeker person, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
No one, not a single soul ever said that yin and yang can't co-exist in a person.
I subscribe to MBTI theory that states certain types of personalities have more empathy than others. Growing up in a family with zero empathy, I also turned out to be a little empathy-deficient, because I spent years giving all the love and energy back to myself. When I am fulfilled, then I can share my empathy with others, but I have to consciously work on it and make that decision.