Thank you for sharing your knowledge! You very easily could have kept it to yourself, made money off of it, and avoided the heart burn people attempt to give you. All your doing is providing people with options to improve their health. Six months of chiropractor = less pain. Three months physical therapy = slight improvement in mobility. Your video = instant relief. I have been doing this routine the past 3 days and afraid to stop for fear all the symptoms will return! In 3 days I went from 80% to 98%. Keep up the excellent work brother! Knowledge is power!
You are the MAN Kelly! All these years I did'nt know why I couldnt squat to at least parallel... now I know its all my muscles are tight as F#cK!!!! My internal Rotation was an embarrassing 1-3 Degress on both legs! wtf!! Something I need to work on now thanks for your videos Kelly!
sometimes, its not the wrong knowledge nor the trainer !! it's just the mindset someone manifests at the time receiving such an influential and incredible pierce of wisdom like this one here !!! reaching first not always good thing !!! the technique demoed here had passed to our genra by another channel named skuat university... check the spelling pls !!! when reached to this channel now !!!
I have almost no internal rotation. In fact im pretty sure its main reason i tore my mcl and med meniscus many years ago surfing (traumatic injury resulting from backhand wipeout).
I can't give you a good answer to be honest because personally for me, I cannot maintain IR when I squat down, which is exactly why my feet come in. And yes your knee would move inside your food, but also no, your knee wouldn't. It depends on the degree of internal rotation. IR helps you so that your feet don't come inward. I have that problem and it has been bugging me for years. I don't even think it's muscular imbalance, it might be a skeletal/hip socket issue
This video helped me find a massive mobility problem. Laying on my back with leg up, I can bring my foot all the way in, well past 45 degrees. However, I can't bring my foot out AT ALL. Couple inches max.
To Fret Frea...I think he's talking about when in the bottom of the squat how some people rotate their feet out due to tightness and mechanical issues.
This is great. If you have your leg rotating out more on one side and not the other. Would you recommend working on that one side more than the other until its even and then work on both evenly?
If anyone could answer this or give me advice I'd be so grateful: I've been trying to do Stronglifts for over 18 months now and make great progress in every exercise except the squat. Why? Because as soon as I get to 130-140lbs or even less I start suffering ACL/MCL problems. The excellent presenter in the video here seems to have put his finger on the exact problem i'm having, I assumed it was 'cause I hurt my ankle when I was a kid but when I do what he suggests, I have extremely limited rotation in my right leg and my right foot is 'ducked' out to the right CONSTANTLY. I know it's dumb but i'm really suffering here, it's screwed up my fitness goals over and over, I can't follow a proper plan without getting injured, and it's deeply demoralising to read forums looking for squat alternatives to just have a bunch of people shouting at you to just "squat anyway". I CAN'T. My right knee ALWAYS gets injured, the last time it was so bad I could barely walk on it for weeks. Are the exercises in this video enough to solve this problem? How long will it take to resolve itself? And can I do hack squat machine or perhaps leg press in the meantime? I would be so appreciate of a thoughtful answer to my question, thank you.
C Hill i have the same problem and I feel you! From what I gather from his videos, it's a mixture or poor internal rotation of the hip and poor ankle dorsiflexion. In the meantime do some form of front loaded squats you should still be able to get your knees in a safe position if you use his torque concepts.
Not everybody has the bony ontogeny to squat safely. It's a shame but if you lack internal rotation at the hip I would just deadlift sumo and do lunges with a racked kettlebell on the side your lunging on. You can build good strong athletic legs without squats. Don't cripple yourself chasing somebody else's perception of an ideal workout.
I can really relate to you. The squat has always held me back from my fitness goals, due to my lack of ankle mobility, and it is super demoralizing. I have big issues with "ankle dorsiflexion" (Google it - it is probably your same problem) due to an injury. This video isn't addressing ankle issues - it is addressing hip issues. Another thing that cause this "duck foot" issue is bad ankle mobility. The main way to tell if it is your ankles is to try to get in a "pistol" position, and see if your heels have to lift off the ground. I would suggest focusing on ankle-related MobilityWOD videos. Further, I discovered that my injury was blocking my ankle range of motion. You can't always "mobilize" your issues away if you have bone-on-bone contact in your ankle. In my case, it was the "front" of the ankle where I had a bunch of bone build-up. I tried to mobilize for a while, but when I got to that end range-of-motion, it would always feel like a hard, bone-on-bone stop (sometimes painful and scary especially when jumping and landing!), rather than just tension in my heel cord or something like that. If you just feel tension in your "soft tissue" like your heel cord or calf muscles when trying to mobilize your ankle, that's great - keep mobilizing it and you will see improvement. If you feel a hard bone-on-bone limitation, you should see an orthopedic surgeon that specializes in ankles and feet. That's what I did. I had a LOT of bone material in my ankle - the surgeon was shocked - but I got it cleared out with surgery. That was back in May, and I am still recovering (my surgery was more invasive than most), but now I do not feel that bone-on-bone stop at the end range-of-motion anymore. I can feel it in my heel cord and a bit in the "front" of my ankle, where the joint capsule is still slightly swollen, but it is not due to bone-on-bone anymore, and I am making progress with mobilization. My goal is one day to be able to do a pistol on both legs (and to be able to jump and land without fear or pain). I got to the point where I could actually do one with my left leg before the surgery, but my right leg never stood a chance due to my ankle. Now, I am actually able to make progress and it is super exciting. I just joined a crossfit gym, and now I have a renewed drive to mobilize my ankle since there are so many squat-dependent movements that they employ. I would say do NOT listen to the people who say "just squat anyway". I took that approach and hurt my hip due to bad squat form, such that I could not to to "parallel" on the squat without intense hip pain. You can hurt yourself, as you know. Good form is worth the time and effort. You want to stay fit and be able to squat for your whole lifetime, so put in the work now. You can always do lifts like deadlift that require less mobility in the mean time, while you are working on your ankle. Good luck to you, and let me know if you have any other questions!
Tony Gedwillo thanks man I really appreciate you taking the time to write me that response, it's tough having issues like this but I'll follow your advice and keep on keeping on.
Isn't this a result of a lack of external rotation? If you properly executed an external rotation wouldn't this prevent your knees from collapsing inward? I'm trying to assess my own squaring problem so if someone could clear this up that would be great
tuswraith Internal rotation is an expression of hip joint capsule mobility. If you have are able to produce a good 35 degrees of IR at the hip, specifically with hip flexion, then you have the "capsular slack" to move through different positions such as the squatting pattern of hip flexion and external rotation without any compensation.
K-starr do you believe in structural lack of IR (due to exaggerated ER) Femoral Retroversion and finding bony/cartilagenous end-feel with PROM hip IR -- what do you do for these guys?
I honestly dont understand how this is a suprise for people. you wouldn't jump explosively, sprint or run, bicycle for a mile or deadlift or do pretty much anything else that involves using your legs with your feet turned out in a 30 degree angle. AKA duck feet. It makes litteraly NO sense to squat that way either. I guess its just because people feel more mobile and flexible that way, but hey, you wanna be relaxed and weak at the bottom of a 400 pound squat, or flexed, locked and strong? Just try it out. It saved my knees. It could save yours. The only time your feet should be turned out that way is if your in the woods and your gonna sit down to take a shit. Its perfect for that. Its not perfect for squatting heavy weight. But whatever floats your boat i guess
When the feet and femurs are in line, the only rotation that occurs happens in the hips, which the hips are highly capable of doing that. When the feet and femurs are NOT in line, some sort of rotation happens elsewhere down the chain. Either in the knees or ankles, some twisting must occur to point the feet forward but keep the knees shoved out. The knees and ankles aren’t built for this kind of movement. They both are designed to flex and extend (and the ankle can perform eversion and inversion), and that’s it. They do have ligaments that help PREVENT this kind of twisting and rotation. But then, if you force those joints to twist while under load, it isn’t your muscles that bear that load during the twisting motion, but it is your ligaments that take it. This is how we run into injuries.
At the 2:07 mark you say you have about 35 degrees of hip internal rotation, which you next say "gives me options down here (in the bottom position of a squat) so I don't have to compensate with the knee in position". If you lack hip internal rotation you literally will not be able to compensate with a "knee in" position because that is a position of internal rotation. The "knee in" compensation at th bottom of a squat would either be a control/ strength deficit in the hip external rotators or a lack of ROM into hip external rotation. tl;dr: reduced hip internal rotation =/= knee in compensation
Lack of internal rotation could lead to overuse of the vastus lateralis and consequent pain in the knee joint because the knee cap suffer from compressive forces? I had this and i'm trying to understand the root cause. (it aggravates when i workout) then the pain takes also the calf and the vastus lateralis that used to be very contracted, i found a great relsoution of the problem releasing the quads and vastus lateralis but again i'm trying to understand if the improper squat and lunges with lack of internal ROM is the main cause. Thoughts would be appreciated :)
I too have a question regarding the IR and ER. If a squat is flexion and external rotation of the hips (torque through the feet, knees out, etc) then why does working on IR aid the position?
how about slightly turned out, shoulder width or a tiny bit wider stance? i cant squat at all with my feet totally straight, i feel my knee travel too forward at the bottom and also my bow legs dont help that much i feel.
I think this is my problem. I have been mobilizing my ankle for a year and my squat hasn't improved. my hips have always been mobile in every angle I tried to put them in, but as soon as I tried this agnle holy shit was it limited DEFIANTLY doing this everyday
Kelly, people may have a hard time catching all your little tidbits of knowledge in these videos, but it's not your fault. Education is in short supply these days and everyone is quick to overcompensate and disregard anything that may make them reevaluate their progress and performance. I honestly feel like your mwods have enlightened me to my own dysfunctions and those of everyone around me. Unfortunately for most if you start throwing around anatomical structures or basic human physiology it goes right over their head and they miss the underlying value of your lessons. I will definitely be subscribing for the advanced stuff on your website soon. I need some graduate level mwod theory to mull around with
I wish he spoke more slowly and calmly, and didn't jump around topics so randomly. As a non-expert I would have liked it if he explained what internal rotation was at the start.
Its tough starting with his videos. Ive found just watching videos every now and then alongside googleing anything I dont know helps. Then you will be happy he doesnt explain it at the start of every video. Watching his very first 10+ videos will help a lot.
when performing pistol squats do you need a good deal of internal hip rotation to perform those as well or are those mainly just an ankle primary range of motion requirement
I feel as if this is a ploy for all the newbies out there so they have to watch all these videos to try to master their body and get the toes pointing straight. Because it is IMPOSSIBLE! I have never seen anyone in my life squat with toes straight at my gym, power lifting events or even Olympic lifting. He is preaching the impossible to get people to watch the infinite mobility training he can do on this movement.
+Rory Scott No way man, you must ignore the success of Chris Duffin, Kirk Karwoski, Eric Lilliebridge, Zydrunas Savickas, Eddie Hall, Lu Xiaojun, Tian Tao, and Hossein Reza Zadeh. Listen to the PhD named Kelly who describes himself as "supple."
Why do you need the band at the hip? I think he meant that the shin should be straight. It's clear that in a squat you have to abduct and pull the knees to the side.
It frees the the head of the femur from the socket, so to circumvent joint spacing issues. Allows for a more optimal stretch.....feels pretty good too, if ya got hip tightness
can someone explain to me why internal rotation in the hips is needed to squat low. I understand from this video that is required but what happens at the anatomy level of the hips back into the hip rotation is restricted you just can't get into that low position with us neutral position and straight back
Donna White because if you look down the closed kinematic chain it puts the knee more vulnerable to Valgus stress, specifically on the medial meniscus and subsequently the ACL. If we follow that pattern down further we see the collapse of the medial arch of the foot. Having a looser posterior hip capsule allows the hips to open up more with sacrificing too much external rotation which puts everything below it at risk of injury. Hope this helps.
Kelly uses a good analogy in one video comparing the hip capsule to just a bag around the joint. So basically if you lack mobility in any one direction, the whole capsule is affected, and therefore the joint's range of motion is limited. If you have have a shirt that you want to make bigger, you stretch it in all directions, not just in one spot.
what?? that made no sense.. how do u look down a closed kinetic chain? what's "it" that makes the knee more vulnerable to valgus stress? how is all that relevant to the biomechanics of how squatting with knees and toes forward necessitates any sort of rotation of the femur???????????????????????????????
This is too confusing to understand w/o understanding the MW paradigm. check this out first before watching this and it should shed some light on this video: community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat --TYPE that into google.
Holy shit, where has this been all my weightlifting life??? Need to do this every damn day... Sucks when you Crossfit with an left ACL tear though :( Noticed my left foot massively wants to turn out at the bottom of a squat.
Matt Antinucci I'm pretty stoked that Brandin Cooks will be taking passes from Drew Brees. I graduated in '06. I had the pleasure of being in Reser when we beat #1 USC in the fog bowl.
Well the video is partially BS. The stance he shows is pretty bad (close stance with the toes pointing out), BUT taking a wider stance and pointing your toes outward actually lessens the torque on your knees and allows you to full squat without buttwink more easily because you can squat between your thighs. Your abdomen and your thighs wont make contact and your lower back won't round because of it, also your knees won't have to travel too much past your toes which lessens the torque on your ACL and patellar tendon. The wider stance recruits your adductors as active stabilisers and takes the load off your passively stabilising lateral knee tendons (LCL, PCL). Look at weightlifters ATG squatting on youtube, they're all pointing their toes outward.
does anyone find it funny how the up next is a power lifter with his feet pointing out? LOL and kelly totally says yeah this is okay after htis video LOL what a fart
have tried everything, I get the sharpest pain when I do this. I can't even lift my leg it gets so weak? I just wish I knew what I did to get this injury
+Leonidas Knightis I haven't got any way to do that unfortunately, I've been just doing resistance band exercises for glutes and I can now squat with a medicine ball, that used to give me that pain, but that hip flexor stretch really hurts
I dont believe in this. I started having knee issues after squating heavy with toes straight. I feel much more comfortable with toes out and knees over ankles.
sigh... the reason you feel pain when you sqaut with your toes straight is because you lack mobility and so you turn your feet out as a workaround. dont just assume something is wrong because YOU can't do it, but instead think of the reason why YOU can't do it and try to fix it.
Well I was born like this when I first started walking I had to wear these dumb looking robot like shoes I was supposed to wear them for alot longer but my mom got me off of them And still to this day I walk with my feet out but I have a feeling it is affecting my squat max I really do not know though.
Kelly, when your knees are turned inwards and you get correct depth, your pelvis impinges on your adductors against your femurs. As someone who has successfully trained powerlifters to a competition level for the past 15-20 years, only a handful of times have I seen people able to squat with knees straight and feet forward without severe lumbar flexion. If you don't have feet out, then you need a narrow stance to stop putting dangerous twist on your knees; and if you have a narrow stance, if you are like 99% of people, then you WILL experience lumbar flexion thus compromising your spine. All because you decided to turn feet forwards. Stop putting nonsense videos out there that genuinely harm real people.
colderplasma what your saying is nonsense. I squat at with shoulder width and outside of shoulder width with internally rotated hips with perfect form. External rotation is a compromise for a lack of ankle mobility. It doesn't even make sense the carry over from a squat to sprinting should be the same degree of rotation.
bro pleaaase someone explain to me how or why you need internal rotation to squat properly.. i've been trying to figure that shit out for a month.. the way i see it, when you squat (say your feet are almost parallel) and your knees are pointing the same direction as your toes, how does that require internal rotation of the hips? how is the femur rotating in this scenario??????????/
Ahmad Kilani with your feet almost parallel you are in some degree of internal rotation at the hip. You just keep that stance and contraction of internally rotating your hip throughout the squat. I good way to look at is sprinting, you wouldn't sprint with externally rotated hips.
Corey Hickman if all you're doing athletically is power lifting, then sure, squat feet out. If you're a field athlete or a weight lifter, having the hip, knee, and ankle mobility to allow your knee to track outside of your foot, as shown in this video, is of paramount importance. The ballistic force on a collapsed arch and a knee tracking "inward" (from poor hip and ankle mobility) is a recipe for disaster. Look at the best vertical jumpers in volley ball and basketball for example. They take off, and land toes forward, because that is the safest position to jump from and land in. Their feet aren't turned out to the exaggerated 45 degree plus angle that "the best squatters in the world" use. Personally, I can squat more with my feet straight. It allows me to engage my glutes and to maintain better tension in my hamstrings and my lower back than when I squatted comparable loads with my feet pointed out. Plus there's no knee pain. KStar knows his shit man. Don't be such a dolt.
Corey Hickman He offers a physiological explanation for his point of view. Your only justification for yours is that "this is bullshit". Why are you right? Unless you can explain it in a clear and concise manner (using science and knowledge of anatomy), then you sir are the bullshitter.
+Mratl131 read Starting Strength squat chapter. Enough said. Squatting with feet and knees out allows clearance for the hips to drop between the legs without impinging the hip joint. In other words, you can keep your low back in extension while getting deep. Knees out also gets the adductors involved in the squat allowing more weight to be lifted. Squatting in this manner has not only pushed my squat from 135 to 450+, but it has cured all back and knee problems I previously had. Everytime i attempt squatting toes forward (due to tight groin occasionally) my low back kills for days after the squat session. And the previous commenter, I've played basketball my whole life, 36 inch vertical (not bad, not great), I always land toes slightly pointed out, always have. Rippetoe is a genius. Starret is not. He's just a guy who talks fast and uses complicated words to sound smart, and moves quickly to the next sentence before people can comprehend he is full of shit.
Corey Hickman I'll start off by saying that starting strength is a fantastic program that the majority of beginning weightlifters should probably consider doing. However... that doesn't mean that everything Rippetoe says is gospel. Compare the educational background of the two and you'll see a clear discrepancy between the knowledge base of the two men. Starrett has a doctorate in physical therapy, whereas Rippetoe has a bachelor's.... in geology. And have you ever considered the fact that your lower back hurt from squatting with feet forward because you lack the ankle ROM to do so? Don't blame a position for being fucked up when in reality it's you personally that is fucked up (or in this case your tissues). Because it sounds like to me that you have poor ankle mobility and simply based on your own tissue restrictions you are judging an idea as bad for all people across the world.
Wish I could spend a month with this guy and sort out all my problems
LHudson ART/LIFTS It would likely quite a bit longer than a month.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge! You very easily could have kept it to yourself, made money off of it, and avoided the heart burn people attempt to give you. All your doing is providing people with options to improve their health. Six months of chiropractor = less pain. Three months physical therapy = slight improvement in mobility. Your video = instant relief. I have been doing this routine the past 3 days and afraid to stop for fear all the symptoms will return! In 3 days I went from 80% to 98%. Keep up the excellent work brother! Knowledge is power!
You are the MAN Kelly! All these years I did'nt know why I couldnt squat to at least parallel... now I know its all my muscles are tight as F#cK!!!! My internal Rotation was an embarrassing 1-3 Degress on both legs! wtf!! Something I need to work on now thanks for your videos Kelly!
My right leg has 0 degrees😂😂
Sincere dedicated individual. Much appreciated.
Genius K-Star. Where was this info when I was younger prior to destroying my knees, heading to the gym to work on this now.
Kelly Sarrett. Awesome.
Finally fixed my problem, I have thought it was an external rotation problem for over a year now....thanks
and now, every clink on YT waaz based on how effective and informative this vid eiiz...
Trying to work with my kids on the Turned Out Syndrome. Thank you so much. K-Star is a genius!
sometimes, its not the wrong knowledge nor the trainer !!
it's just the mindset someone manifests at the time receiving
such an influential and incredible pierce of wisdom like this
one here !!!
reaching first not always good
thing !!!
the technique demoed here had passed to our genra by another channel named skuat university... check the spelling pls !!!
when reached to this channel now !!!
Brilliantly done
You are a wise strength coach. I'm in the bay area myself, always trying to understand how to move better. I like the skull KB
Exactly the exercise that I need
I have almost no internal rotation. In fact im pretty sure its main reason i tore my mcl and med meniscus many years ago surfing (traumatic injury resulting from backhand wipeout).
I can't give you a good answer to be honest because personally for me, I cannot maintain IR when I squat down, which is exactly why my feet come in.
And yes your knee would move inside your food, but also no, your knee wouldn't. It depends on the degree of internal rotation.
IR helps you so that your feet don't come inward.
I have that problem and it has been bugging me for years. I don't even think it's muscular imbalance, it might be a skeletal/hip socket issue
Such great info! Knowledge is a beautiful thing... now to correct my problems.
This video helped me find a massive mobility problem. Laying on my back with leg up, I can bring my foot all the way in, well past 45 degrees. However, I can't bring my foot out AT ALL. Couple inches max.
To Fret Frea...I think he's talking about when in the bottom of the squat how some people rotate their feet out due to tightness and mechanical issues.
This is great. If you have your leg rotating out more on one side and not the other. Would you recommend working on that one side more than the other until its even and then work on both evenly?
If anyone could answer this or give me advice I'd be so grateful:
I've been trying to do Stronglifts for over 18 months now and make great progress in every exercise except the squat. Why? Because as soon as I get to 130-140lbs or even less I start suffering ACL/MCL problems.
The excellent presenter in the video here seems to have put his finger on the exact problem i'm having, I assumed it was 'cause I hurt my ankle when I was a kid but when I do what he suggests, I have extremely limited rotation in my right leg and my right foot is 'ducked' out to the right CONSTANTLY.
I know it's dumb but i'm really suffering here, it's screwed up my fitness goals over and over, I can't follow a proper plan without getting injured, and it's deeply demoralising to read forums looking for squat alternatives to just have a bunch of people shouting at you to just "squat anyway".
I CAN'T. My right knee ALWAYS gets injured, the last time it was so bad I could barely walk on it for weeks.
Are the exercises in this video enough to solve this problem? How long will it take to resolve itself? And can I do hack squat machine or perhaps leg press in the meantime?
I would be so appreciate of a thoughtful answer to my question, thank you.
C Hill i have the same problem and I feel you! From what I gather from his videos, it's a mixture or poor internal rotation of the hip and poor ankle dorsiflexion. In the meantime do some form of front loaded squats you should still be able to get your knees in a safe position if you use his torque concepts.
Not everybody has the bony ontogeny to squat safely. It's a shame but if you lack internal rotation at the hip I would just deadlift sumo and do lunges with a racked kettlebell on the side your lunging on. You can build good strong athletic legs without squats. Don't cripple yourself chasing somebody else's perception of an ideal workout.
Daniel Taylor every healthy 2 year old can squat though. So unless you have some serious injury you can work to squatting properly I'd believe
I can really relate to you. The squat has always held me back from my fitness goals, due to my lack of ankle mobility, and it is super demoralizing.
I have big issues with "ankle dorsiflexion" (Google it - it is probably your same problem) due to an injury. This video isn't addressing ankle issues - it is addressing hip issues. Another thing that cause this "duck foot" issue is bad ankle mobility. The main way to tell if it is your ankles is to try to get in a "pistol" position, and see if your heels have to lift off the ground. I would suggest focusing on ankle-related MobilityWOD videos.
Further, I discovered that my injury was blocking my ankle range of motion. You can't always "mobilize" your issues away if you have bone-on-bone contact in your ankle. In my case, it was the "front" of the ankle where I had a bunch of bone build-up. I tried to mobilize for a while, but when I got to that end range-of-motion, it would always feel like a hard, bone-on-bone stop (sometimes painful and scary especially when jumping and landing!), rather than just tension in my heel cord or something like that. If you just feel tension in your "soft tissue" like your heel cord or calf muscles when trying to mobilize your ankle, that's great - keep mobilizing it and you will see improvement. If you feel a hard bone-on-bone limitation, you should see an orthopedic surgeon that specializes in ankles and feet. That's what I did. I had a LOT of bone material in my ankle - the surgeon was shocked - but I got it cleared out with surgery. That was back in May, and I am still recovering (my surgery was more invasive than most), but now I do not feel that bone-on-bone stop at the end range-of-motion anymore. I can feel it in my heel cord and a bit in the "front" of my ankle, where the joint capsule is still slightly swollen, but it is not due to bone-on-bone anymore, and I am making progress with mobilization.
My goal is one day to be able to do a pistol on both legs (and to be able to jump and land without fear or pain). I got to the point where I could actually do one with my left leg before the surgery, but my right leg never stood a chance due to my ankle. Now, I am actually able to make progress and it is super exciting. I just joined a crossfit gym, and now I have a renewed drive to mobilize my ankle since there are so many squat-dependent movements that they employ.
I would say do NOT listen to the people who say "just squat anyway". I took that approach and hurt my hip due to bad squat form, such that I could not to to "parallel" on the squat without intense hip pain. You can hurt yourself, as you know. Good form is worth the time and effort. You want to stay fit and be able to squat for your whole lifetime, so put in the work now. You can always do lifts like deadlift that require less mobility in the mean time, while you are working on your ankle.
Good luck to you, and let me know if you have any other questions!
Tony Gedwillo thanks man I really appreciate you taking the time to write me that response, it's tough having issues like this but I'll follow your advice and keep on keeping on.
Dr. Starrett
In light of what you said, should a baseball catcher's feet be pointing straight ahead in his secondary (throwing) stance?
Isn't this a result of a lack of external rotation? If you properly executed an external rotation wouldn't this prevent your knees from collapsing inward?
I'm trying to assess my own squaring problem so if someone could clear this up that would be great
tuswraith Internal rotation is an expression of hip joint capsule mobility. If you have are able to produce a good 35 degrees of IR at the hip, specifically with hip flexion, then you have the "capsular slack" to move through different positions such as the squatting pattern of hip flexion and external rotation without any compensation.
K-starr do you believe in structural lack of IR (due to exaggerated ER) Femoral Retroversion and finding bony/cartilagenous end-feel with PROM hip IR -- what do you do for these guys?
Kelly any advice on trying to step up to squats if I have 10-degree scoliosis?
Thank you, excellent
I honestly dont understand how this is a suprise for people. you wouldn't jump explosively, sprint or run, bicycle for a mile or deadlift or do pretty much anything else that involves using your legs with your feet turned out in a 30 degree angle. AKA duck feet. It makes litteraly NO sense to squat that way either.
I guess its just because people feel more mobile and flexible that way, but hey, you wanna be relaxed and weak at the bottom of a 400 pound squat, or flexed, locked and strong?
Just try it out. It saved my knees. It could save yours. The only time your feet should be turned out that way is if your in the woods and your gonna sit down to take a shit. Its perfect for that. Its not perfect for squatting heavy weight.
But whatever floats your boat i guess
Running and squatting are completely different movements.
I made more examples than just running though.
When the feet and femurs are in line, the only rotation that occurs happens in the hips, which the hips are highly capable of doing that. When the feet and femurs are NOT in line, some sort of rotation happens elsewhere down the chain. Either in the knees or ankles, some twisting must occur to point the feet forward but keep the knees shoved out.
The knees and ankles aren’t built for this kind of movement. They both are designed to flex and extend (and the ankle can perform eversion and inversion), and that’s it. They do have ligaments that help PREVENT this kind of twisting and rotation. But then, if you force those joints to twist while under load, it isn’t your muscles that bear that load during the twisting motion, but it is your ligaments that take it. This is how we run into injuries.
Adnan Parvez \yum 77
At the 2:07 mark you say you have about 35 degrees of hip internal rotation, which you next say "gives me options down here (in the bottom position of a squat) so I don't have to compensate with the knee in position". If you lack hip internal rotation you literally will not be able to compensate with a "knee in" position because that is a position of internal rotation.
The "knee in" compensation at th bottom of a squat would either be a control/ strength deficit in the hip external rotators or a lack of ROM into hip external rotation. tl;dr: reduced hip internal rotation =/= knee in compensation
+Tom Lawrence i think its more capsular thing, as mentioned above. but i also dont get it totally
You are the coolest thanks for the great info.
Lack of internal rotation could lead to overuse of the vastus lateralis and consequent pain in the knee joint because the knee cap suffer from compressive forces? I had this and i'm trying to understand the root cause. (it aggravates when i workout) then the pain takes also the calf and the vastus lateralis that used to be very contracted, i found a great relsoution of the problem releasing the quads and vastus lateralis but again i'm trying to understand if the improper squat and lunges with lack of internal ROM is the main cause. Thoughts would be appreciated :)
My animal totem is dominating the rut after improving his femurs' internal rotation.
but if you use IR in flexion, aren't you impinging at the hip? And isn't the knee moving inside of the foot, which we can agree isn't good?
I too have a question regarding the IR and ER. If a squat is flexion and external rotation of the hips (torque through the feet, knees out, etc) then why does working on IR aid the position?
did you ever find an answer to this question????
this video has made me question all the advice I have ever paid mind to from Kelly
How so?
I want to do what you do with the rubber band on the hip but I don't know what in my house is strong enough.
if the piriformis is a internal rotator at 90 degrees....how does the stretch in this position work??
how about slightly turned out, shoulder width or a tiny bit wider stance?
i cant squat at all with my feet totally straight, i feel my knee travel too forward at the bottom and also my bow legs dont help that much i feel.
I think this is my problem. I have been mobilizing my ankle for a year and my squat hasn't improved. my hips have always been mobile in every angle I tried to put them in, but as soon as I tried this agnle holy shit was it limited
DEFIANTLY doing this everyday
Kelly, people may have a hard time catching all your little tidbits of knowledge in these videos, but it's not your fault. Education is in short supply these days and everyone is quick to overcompensate and disregard anything that may make them reevaluate their progress and performance. I honestly feel like your mwods have enlightened me to my own dysfunctions and those of everyone around me. Unfortunately for most if you start throwing around anatomical structures or basic human physiology it goes right over their head and they miss the underlying value of your lessons. I will definitely be subscribing for the advanced stuff on your website soon. I need some graduate level mwod theory to mull around with
I wish he spoke more slowly and calmly, and didn't jump around topics so randomly.
As a non-expert I would have liked it if he explained what internal rotation was at the start.
Its tough starting with his videos. Ive found just watching videos every now and then alongside googleing anything I dont know helps. Then you will be happy he doesnt explain it at the start of every video. Watching his very first 10+ videos will help a lot.
You're watching episode 230 lol, go back and he teaches a lot of it.
when performing pistol squats do you need a good deal of internal hip rotation to perform those as well or are those mainly just an ankle primary range of motion requirement
Where can I get one of those kettlebells?
Look guys! I've been able to naturally squat to depth my whole life! Now let me teach you how to fix your genetics!
lol
I feel as if this is a ploy for all the newbies out there so they have to watch all these videos to try to master their body and get the toes pointing straight. Because it is IMPOSSIBLE! I have never seen anyone in my life squat with toes straight at my gym, power lifting events or even Olympic lifting. He is preaching the impossible to get people to watch the infinite mobility training he can do on this movement.
+Rory Scott No way man, you must ignore the success of Chris Duffin, Kirk Karwoski, Eric Lilliebridge, Zydrunas Savickas, Eddie Hall, Lu Xiaojun, Tian Tao, and Hossein Reza Zadeh. Listen to the PhD named Kelly who describes himself as "supple."
Why do you need the band at the hip?
I think he meant that the shin should be straight. It's clear that in a squat you have to abduct and pull the knees to the side.
It frees the the head of the femur from the socket, so to circumvent joint spacing issues. Allows for a more optimal stretch.....feels pretty good too, if ya got hip tightness
why improve my internal rotation could lead to better ankle position mobility in squat?
really good info, thanks....bad camera man
Camera & Sound need to improve a lot, since you have been doing this for a very LONG time!! -- Other than that -as always- great approach √√
So squats with toes pointing out is bad or not?
Would this also help in internal rotation during extension?
@Kelly Starrett
hey, i tried this "stretch" u showed, i pull my knee towards my chest, and my foot seems to INTERNALLY rotate in...why is that ?
without IR, then your feet would go into "criss cross apple sauce" position the further you go down. I have this same exact problem and it sucks!!!
good stuff,finally can get rid of my duck feet
What if I feel discomfort in my knee medially while doing the banded stretch in flexion when I try internally rotate my hip and anchor my foot?
Tried this and I have zero internal rotation. LOL
This is the story of my life. I have ZERO internal rotation in my hips and it sucks
@Ramon Blankenship what is that?
@Ramon Blankenship ok cool. Thanks!
apparently my hip IR is 3degrees... no wonder I keep hurting my back
can anyone tell me what band is he using ?
need do over....thx camera man
what type/brand of band/strap is he using?
I can't find it either
Where can you get bands like you use in your videos?
jump stretch
What if feet turning out is because of lack of ankle mobility?
can someone explain to me why internal rotation in the hips is needed to squat low. I understand from this video that is required but what happens at the anatomy level of the hips back into the hip rotation is restricted you just can't get into that low position with us neutral position and straight back
Donna White because if you look down the closed kinematic chain it puts the knee more vulnerable to Valgus stress, specifically on the medial meniscus and subsequently the ACL. If we follow that pattern down further we see the collapse of the medial arch of the foot. Having a looser posterior hip capsule allows the hips to open up more with sacrificing too much external rotation which puts everything below it at risk of injury. Hope this helps.
Kelly uses a good analogy in one video comparing the hip capsule to just a bag around the joint. So basically if you lack mobility in any one direction, the whole capsule is affected, and therefore the joint's range of motion is limited. If you have have a shirt that you want to make bigger, you stretch it in all directions, not just in one spot.
what?? that made no sense.. how do u look down a closed kinetic chain? what's "it" that makes the knee more vulnerable to valgus stress? how is all that relevant to the biomechanics of how squatting with knees and toes forward necessitates any sort of rotation of the femur???????????????????????????????
What if my mobiliti internal rotation is like 0-5% ?!!!!!!!!!
This is too confusing to understand w/o understanding the MW paradigm.
check this out first before watching this and it should shed some light on this video:
community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat --TYPE that into google.
Holy shit, where has this been all my weightlifting life??? Need to do this every damn day... Sucks when you Crossfit with an left ACL tear though :( Noticed my left foot massively wants to turn out at the bottom of a squat.
dont crossfit
Matt Antinucci Don't TH-cam.
g1 bro
Matt Antinucci Whoa dude, you went to OSU? So did I.
Matt Antinucci I'm pretty stoked that Brandin Cooks will be taking passes from Drew Brees. I graduated in '06. I had the pleasure of being in Reser when we beat #1 USC in the fog bowl.
Well the video is partially BS. The stance he shows is pretty bad (close stance with the toes pointing out), BUT taking a wider stance and pointing your toes outward actually lessens the torque on your knees and allows you to full squat without buttwink more easily because you can squat between your thighs. Your abdomen and your thighs wont make contact and your lower back won't round because of it, also your knees won't have to travel too much past your toes which lessens the torque on your ACL and patellar tendon. The wider stance recruits your adductors as active stabilisers and takes the load off your passively stabilising lateral knee tendons (LCL, PCL). Look at weightlifters ATG squatting on youtube, they're all pointing their toes outward.
j0k
does anyone find it funny how the up next is a power lifter with his feet pointing out? LOL and kelly totally says yeah this is okay after htis video LOL what a fart
have tried everything, I get the sharpest pain when I do this. I can't even lift my leg it gets so weak? I just wish I knew what I did to get this injury
when you squat w feet straight ahead?
+Leonidas Knightis if I do the pigeon yoga pose it replicates the pain, just very deep stabbing pain in my hip/glute area
+Josh Wojcik have you tried that pose with the hip in traction (i.e. w the band on it)?
+Leonidas Knightis I haven't got any way to do that unfortunately, I've been just doing resistance band exercises for glutes and I can now squat with a medicine ball, that used to give me that pain, but that hip flexor stretch really hurts
+Leonidas Knightis I meant "distraction" not traction;)
camera men didn't do a good job, missed your beginning motions showing movement. so frustrating
I dont believe in this. I started having knee issues after squating heavy with toes straight. I feel much more comfortable with toes out and knees over ankles.
sigh... the reason you feel pain when you sqaut with your toes straight is because you lack mobility and so you turn your feet out as a workaround. dont just assume something is wrong because YOU can't do it, but instead think of the reason why YOU can't do it and try to fix it.
Nah! As long as your knees dont cave in youre fine. This isn't gospel
If аnуоne wаnts tо unсоvеr асhing hiр flехoоооrs bеst wоrkоut fоr hiррррs trу twitter.com/5be750e6e7c2f223c/status/794458642376368128 Squаtting With Тurnеd Оut Fееt IR уоursеlf Fеаt Кеllу Starrеtt Ер 230 МММоbilitуWОD
This video is based on the optimal, but not everyone has the hip structure to squat with toes straight
Like the content, despise the camera person -_-
Great content! But shitty camera guy!!
They couldn't capture the movements
Well I was born like this when I first started walking I had to wear these dumb looking robot like shoes I was supposed to wear them for alot longer but my mom got me off of them And still to this day I walk with my feet out but I have a feeling it is affecting my squat max I really do not know though.
Kelly, when your knees are turned inwards and you get correct depth, your pelvis impinges on your adductors against your femurs. As someone who has successfully trained powerlifters to a competition level for the past 15-20 years, only a handful of times have I seen people able to squat with knees straight and feet forward without severe lumbar flexion. If you don't have feet out, then you need a narrow stance to stop putting dangerous twist on your knees; and if you have a narrow stance, if you are like 99% of people, then you WILL experience lumbar flexion thus compromising your spine. All because you decided to turn feet forwards. Stop putting nonsense videos out there that genuinely harm real people.
+colderplasma Finally some common sense.
+colderplasma What does "champion level" even mean for PL? IPF champ?
colderplasma what your saying is nonsense. I squat at with shoulder width and outside of shoulder width with internally rotated hips with perfect form. External rotation is a compromise for a lack of ankle mobility. It doesn't even make sense the carry over from a squat to sprinting should be the same degree of rotation.
bro pleaaase someone explain to me how or why you need internal rotation to squat properly.. i've been trying to figure that shit out for a month.. the way i see it, when you squat (say your feet are almost parallel) and your knees are pointing the same direction as your toes, how does that require internal rotation of the hips? how is the femur rotating in this scenario??????????/
Ahmad Kilani with your feet almost parallel you are in some degree of internal rotation at the hip. You just keep that stance and contraction of internally rotating your hip throughout the squat. I good way to look at is sprinting, you wouldn't sprint with externally rotated hips.
Tell this to all the top oly lifters who squat clean and snatch with their feet out.
feet totally straight??? Kelly please GTFO!!!
This is such utter bullshit. Everybody should be squatting with feet and knees out.
Unless getting your ACL torn is the next big thing, then no.
Corey Hickman if all you're doing athletically is power lifting, then sure, squat feet out.
If you're a field athlete or a weight lifter, having the hip, knee, and ankle mobility to allow your knee to track outside of your foot, as shown in this video, is of paramount importance. The ballistic force on a collapsed arch and a knee tracking "inward" (from poor hip and ankle mobility) is a recipe for disaster. Look at the best vertical jumpers in volley ball and basketball for example. They take off, and land toes forward, because that is the safest position to jump from and land in. Their feet aren't turned out to the exaggerated 45 degree plus angle that "the best squatters in the world" use.
Personally, I can squat more with my feet straight. It allows me to engage my glutes and to maintain better tension in my hamstrings and my lower back than when I squatted comparable loads with my feet pointed out. Plus there's no knee pain.
KStar knows his shit man. Don't be such a dolt.
Corey Hickman
He offers a physiological explanation for his point of view. Your only justification for yours is that "this is bullshit". Why are you right? Unless you can explain it in a clear and concise manner (using science and knowledge of anatomy), then you sir are the bullshitter.
+Mratl131 read Starting Strength squat chapter. Enough said. Squatting with feet and knees out allows clearance for the hips to drop between the legs without impinging the hip joint. In other words, you can keep your low back in extension while getting deep. Knees out also gets the adductors involved in the squat allowing more weight to be lifted. Squatting in this manner has not only pushed my squat from 135 to 450+, but it has cured all back and knee problems I previously had. Everytime i attempt squatting toes forward (due to tight groin occasionally) my low back kills for days after the squat session. And the previous commenter, I've played basketball my whole life, 36 inch vertical (not bad, not great), I always land toes slightly pointed out, always have. Rippetoe is a genius. Starret is not. He's just a guy who talks fast and uses complicated words to sound smart, and moves quickly to the next sentence before people can comprehend he is full of shit.
Corey Hickman
I'll start off by saying that starting strength is a fantastic program that the majority of beginning weightlifters should probably consider doing. However... that doesn't mean that everything Rippetoe says is gospel. Compare the educational background of the two and you'll see a clear discrepancy between the knowledge base of the two men. Starrett has a doctorate in physical therapy, whereas Rippetoe has a bachelor's.... in geology.
And have you ever considered the fact that your lower back hurt from squatting with feet forward because you lack the ankle ROM to do so? Don't blame a position for being fucked up when in reality it's you personally that is fucked up (or in this case your tissues). Because it sounds like to me that you have poor ankle mobility and simply based on your own tissue restrictions you are judging an idea as bad for all people across the world.
Complete and utter nonsense