I get it! Keeping all that stock is killing business. The smaller ma and pop shops can't do it. The problem is as you pointed out, Cannondale is their worst enemy for example. New standards are created for the marketing department to work with. Manufacturers duel with their patents and royalties. Tulio Campagnolo held back innovation in his time when they had an effective monopoly. The Japanese ended all that. The bicycle used to be such a simple machine. The UCI has as part of its mission to keep the bicycle looking like a bicycle with safe equal competition between athletes. It's not America's Cup between billionaires. At some point, where do we draw the line between business and sensibility?
I agree with David’s comment. My thoughts was more closer the car manufacturer with tech, reversing sensors, lane control etc when people try these new tech they don’t want, then the prices of vehicles, stupid price, you can see the prices of new bikes as well, not good. The rim brakes issue maybe we are looking at wrong maybe wrong material for brake pads, I don’t know. I can see cycling going down the same route as cars, that includes ebike. Just my thoughts, but it opens up a good debate.
I am just soo triggered right now 😒. This is what happens at the shop when you have a part not available. The sales person looks on QBP or Junk and Bargins for the part. They order it then double the price. If you want it right away you pay for shipping if not you wait for the shops main order shipment and the shipping is free. If you live in a big city like Denver QBP delivers the product the same day. So this is not a problem. Shops can't keep everything on hand
I like rim brakes and external cabling : it's very easy to maintain as I always try to do all the servicing myself. Sorry bike shops but I have seen too much of them working, I guess, "too fast", which I understand, but I spend too much time on my bike, I like the setup to be perfect, and if something is wrong it's my fault, I will do better next time, and I didn't pay for it anyway, you loose time for training, but you become a better mechanic, wich is skill that's valuable for my friends, colleagues, and family. And for rim brakes they are quite cheaper, I also have small hands and appreciate small shifters. I have Hydro DB on my MTB, I like them too, no worries about that, and I never thought "I would rather have V-brake on them". I have completely abandonned the idea of converging technology for bikes, but we would need are standards, the BB is indeed a great exemple about that. I guess everyone making a bit of everything is not that bad anyway. Cheers
Rim brakes are miles more forgiving than disc brakes. The bike is expected to suit the rider not the other way around. There are far too many bike riders where the cons easily outweigh the pros of disc brakes.
@@Mapdec I'm surprised you didn't have a go at manufacturers for putting disc brakes on kiddies bikes. Kids are not heavy enough, they don't ride fast enough and they are not allowed out riding in the pouring rain, why oh why would they ever need the superior braking power of disc brakes? Manufacturers not thinking things through is what is actually stifling innovation.
I use disc brakes for two decades now,but on my mtb! On my race bike there’ll always be rim brakes. They had a century to evolve and are at their prime now-I don’t have many mountains around where i live so disc brakes are pointless 🤷♂️
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not. I’ve never had an issue with rim brakes or mechanical 10/11 speed. Don’t have to worry about charging/replacing batteries for shifting or bleeding brakes or paying through the nose for brake pads. Quick release is awesome for travelling with a bike too. I think early to mid 2010’s was the pinnacle of road bike design. Rider focused with practicality in mind.
We already are where we want to be, at least some of us. The manufacturers need to stop fuking us with bs "tech" and planned obsolescence. Riding isn't about tech its about riding. And this is coming from a professional mechanic. And we are not all appreciating going wider.
You can run 28c or 30c easily with rim brakes, which is my sweet spot. I don't ride in the rain and I've never had a problem with compression less housing and Kool stop orange stopping me predictably at 50mph so eh. Disc brakes have gotten pretty easy to work on (Shimano at least)
@@senorspiegel In my experience disc brakes (mechanical or hydraulic) are not nearly as easy to work on as rim. Rim brakes don't squeal every time a bike owner touches the rotor, sweats on it, gets random chemicals on it. Maybe most aren't, but if you're a skilled rider rim brakes are good in wet.
@@jonnyoneplate well said. I am in Midwest USA.. I ride rim 404's in the worst weather no problemo. I had 2 Canyons with discs and the rubbed when climbing hard. And "ghost" shifted with SRAM 12. Sold em both. Bank to rim and mech Dura Ace
Exactly. Especially if you drive on flats like I do a lot in the Netherlands, rims are more than enough. Easy, lightweight, cheap, simple to repair and to troubleshoot. I currently also have a road disc bike and yes, I do see the advantages but really for riding in the Netherlands it's a waste of money. Those bikes costing €3000 with their 105 + discs aren't any better suited for that riding than a €500 ebay bike with rims, and that one will be faster too :)
@@Mapdec Thanks for replying! What problems exactly do you mean? For riding in a flat country like the Netherlands, my rim brake systemsix from 2008 offered everything I need. For me it is just great that I can go out and ride an excellent carbon frame that weighs under 9 kg for just €400. And when stuff breaks, I fixed it myself. Get some parts from the bike shop, and done. I moved to an area with more hills now and got myself a disc brake road bike, and I'm very happy with it. But I already had some of the typical issues with brake rub, and I know that if something really goes wrong with this system it will be much more difficult to repair. Still, it descends way more confidently than my old bike, so I'm happy with it. I wanted better braking, and I got it. But for the flats, in my opinion, it's not necessary. Might also just be because I'm a
@@Mapdec Ummm...if there are no problems why does one need bike repair....or people to affect repairs. LBS role is to repair, maintain and prevent issues not create them....
I'm in the trade and see more problems with modern bikes now than we ever saw before, much can be down to customer negligence or ignorance regarding care or maintenance. Club riders rarely needed bike shops for regular maintenance, I'm still riding Campag equipment on Roberts bikes, my oldest bike is from the 80s, how many of todays bikes will be in use 40 years from now? With the state of the environment, should we be encouraging disposable non recyclable bikes?
I use my cyclocross on the road. It's got slightly bigger tire clearance, a solid frame, and cantilever rim brakes which - when properly set - brake like a charm and have nothing to envy to disc brakes!
I think the rim brakes on my road bike are the parts that i have the least issues with, if any. I actually doubled down on them and got me special lights that mount on rim-brakes only.
I like the performance of road disc brakes, but the maintenance requirements and therefore costs are very high compared to rim brakes. I live in Switzerland and ride a lot of hills. I have found that pad and rotor life is shockingly low (1000km for pads and 2500km for rotors), not to mention the occasional brake bleeding requirements. Compare that with my rim brake road bike where my last set of pads pads lasted 20,000 km and the wheels lasted 30,000 km. that bike needs virtually no maintenance, the disc bike is far more needy. I would like to see the manufacturers concentrate on making longer lasting components!
Even if cyclists could agree (and we can't), I don't think all of us getting behind something makes a bit of difference to the bike manufacturers. As far as rim brakes holding back wheel innovation, I don't see it. Most (all?) of the new wheels by the big names have completely written off rim brakes. I'm grateful that certain Chinese brands continue to bring out their new wheels with rim brake options.
Brands may be scaling back development of rim wheels, but some of the last generation are realistically as good as they need to be. Campag/ Fulcrum and others still supporting rim options for now and they are top performing wheels, the latest brake tracks are fine- China direct brands will let you customise anything you need. The spectre of limited availability is atleast for now, a myth to encourage stodgy disc bike sales.
I've never worn out a set of alloy rims, and I've never owned a set of carbon rims. I guarantee you I enjoy cycling just as much as anyone with the latest carbon fiber deep section wheels, overly loud free hubs with a gajillion contact points, and invisible hydraulics and wires running all up and down their carbon frames. I suspect I enjoy it more because I'm not constantly chasing the tech. All I want is for good quality alloy rims and rim brake systems to still be made. I don't buy at all any argument that says if component makers keep making the older stuff then they have no money for R&D. That is, frankly and bluntly, BS.
In reality, mere mortal weekend warriors like myself will probably set faster times on (lighter) rim brake bikes. It's difficult to justify "upgrading" to Dura Ace 9200 when I don't require more braking power or an extra 20T high gear. A new disk brake bike is likely heavier, less dependable, and more difficult to maintain/fix.
@@cc-000 the aero benefits will be largely irrelevant on a 4 -5 hour ride, I'm not saying that aerodynamics can't have huge benefits given the ideal conditions or the right reason, but why is the marketing making out that it's a must have. Deep section wheels are bloody awful in windy weather and a nuisance on club runs.
@@cc-000 no disc brake wheel does have better aerodinamcis than a rim brake wheel ,that is just bizzare marketing koolaid. One issue is front wheel asymmetry and other is disc rotor that is always designed to catch air
@@cc-000 absolute bollocks disc Brake bikes are heavy and as I’m not doing 30 mph all the time it makes no difference to me go to some hill climb races you can’t move for disc brake bikes not because they’re f@@king heavy
@@oreocarlton3343Try changing a disc brake bike's rear tube at night in the rain after a long hard day at work - on your commute home when the thru axel plays up, and the brake pad wont align when you try to put the wheel back in place - this in when you realize that gettiing 'behind the future of the sport' was a very bad mistake and you have been conned into a heavier, much more expensive & more complex bike with marketting gimmicks and 💩🐂💩. Disc bikes are really aimed at people who have professional mechanics following them in the team car, not weekend cyclists or commuters. I need my bike to be 110% reliable with no issue if I need to change a tube quickly, I need to be able to change the tube in less than 2 minutes, start to finish as I use my bike for commuting as part of a busy day, I cannot risk being late for work because of a problem with a wheel change on the way to work.. I therefore have zero margin for difficulty with changing a wheel - this means discs are out of the question, no way acceptable - disc = weight, expense, hassle & danger.
Yes, we should get behind the disk brakes. 😂 I live in Austria. Quite some big descends here. Never had any issues with rim breakes. They are lighter, more aero and are easy to fix.
My bike riding experience would be far worse if I were stuck with disc brakes. I just don't need them. The expense, service cost, weight is enough alone to pass. Disc brakes would be trying to fix a problem that does not exist for me. My rim brakes never ever make a sound, need almost zero maintenance and cost a fraction to purchase and maintain. I put 8000 km on a new set of carbon rims last year and the pads are not used up yet and the brake track still looks like brand new. Never have I thought my braking performance was lacking. I need disc brakes because why??? I also don't think I'm an unusual case. You are suggesting your problems should be my problem... Good luck sorting your issues.
The smoothness of a 105 crank turning a threaded hambini bb. The balance of a single pivoting caliper squeezing flashpros onto a machined alloy rim. The reassurance of a svelte hooked tyre prized onto a ride. And the tangible visuals of a mechanical gear change. I think we have arrived with no batteries required mate 🤟
Yes, let's all get behind heavier, more expensive, harder to maintain, noisier brake technology that requires stiffer riding frames, wheels, and forks.🤣 I'll stick with my no nonsense, fully external, mechanical, rim brake on light alloy rims with 28s that I just get on and ride a big hill on every day with no issues 🙃
People keep saying that disc brake bikes ride stiffer. Can someone actually prove that to me. I had a 2013 Cannondale SuperSix and also have a newer disc brake SuperSix. The disc brake model does not ride more harsh than my old one. That is with similar depth carbon wheels. (The new one has slightly deeper wheels) and both running 25mm tires. Granted, you could make a case of it being a newer frame. But, it rides great.
@@DaveCM You can make a rim brake bike as stiff as a disc bike. But you can't make a disc bike as compliant as a rim brake bike that's designed for compliance. Disc fork and wheel has to be able to handle the torque of braking without shuddering, so that sets the floor for stiffness for disc bikes. Rim fork and wheels can be built much lighter and more compliant because braking force is transferred through the rim, not the spokes and fork legs.
@@DaveCM the forks would have too be stiffer to take the extra forces applied on such a small area the torsional pull from a disc must be quite significant.
Sorry, you're using 'OuTdAtEd TeCh' and what you describe is impossible, discs are the way forward! >This comment was sponsored by a bike shop around you trying to sell more €3500 9kg bikes with 'modern' tech.
The rim brakes are great and external routing is awesome, easy to maintain inspect and adjust in couple of minutes. Besides that they also whey less and have similar performance, except the bad weather conditions when most people ride on the trainer. They come at a lower price, lower weight, shorter time of installation.
@@rosomak8244As someone who commutes in all weathers (latest ultegra calipers and alu rims), I'm afraid stopping power and reliability for the same lever squeeze is much lower than in my discs. Being someone with hand injuries and small hands, discs have been a godsend.
When we get rid of rim brakes we can really start innovating with some heavier less responsive more expensive wheelsets. Your video is a masterclass in sarcasm well done sir!
Money. Cyclists with large incomes will flex with the latest gear. That’s cool to see. However, I love the simplicity of things that have always worked and cost very little to upkeep - like rim brakes on road bikes. The stock issue you mention, plus multiple molds, may be why the manufacturers stopped giving consumers a choice. Luckily I still have my rim brake, mechanical shifting bike and will save the discs for the dirt.
All those standards were driven by the change to first aluminium and then carbon as a frame and components material. The old standards are still optimal for steel frames with aluminium parts. Let's look at the bottom bracket. The square taper standard works for commuters as well as sprinters. There are no alignment issues and the bearings are big enough. The whole system is easy to manufacture and therefore there are cheap options. It's not that hard to use different spindle lengths for different chainlines.
Aluminum rims with rim brakes are a winning combination. They work great up to 54 mm tyres. They allow for flexible forks which improve traction and comfort. That's the purpose-built no compromise high performance option.
Actually I like my rim brakes fine. However I don't care if campagnola still make them or not, I just want to know that someone makes brake pads to fit and someone makes rims and hubs to fit. It is not asking much.
I'll put up with discs offroad where they make a huge difference, but in my flat state rim brakes are more than enough and way easier to maintain for road.
I absolutely love disc brakes but hate installing them. All my bikes are disc, but I'm building a rim brake bike because of the simplicity of it, the ease of working on it at home. The biggest downside with discs is all the extra steps.
Absolutely, my most used bike is fully intergrated, looks amazing. Had an argument with it though when it came to service the headset and ended up taking it to a mechanic.
My problem with moving to disk brakes is I run a "grandfather's axe" road bike. I replace the transmission with one at the Chorus/Record level when it wears out. I did that last year, moving from 10 to 12 speed mechanical. I get a new frame every 10-15 years. I'm due one in the next year or so - can't afford good carbon so I'm looking at high end aluminium such as a Condor. Wheels are upgraded when finances allow. At no point could I get anything that would touch this for quality if I had to get a complete bike on the same budget. So like the legendary axe which has had the blade and handle replaced at different times over the years, it's never completely new. Moving to disk brakes needs everything to be changed, and the result would be a less good bike for more money with very slightly better braking.
@@Mapdec To be fair I think you highlighted why so many want to stick with rim brakes, it's a mature technology that works very well. There's no room for the bike industry to make massive improvements to the rim brake so we are being moved onto a new technology (disk brakes) that needs a lot of development, which we are expected to fund by purchasing the new and improved versions. I will no doubt buy into hydraulic disks at some stage but I will wait until I think all the issues are ironed out. I guess it's difficult for the more seasoned cyclist to suck it up and start over again.
With a lot of things you say, You speak out of my heart and I agree fully with You. But not regarding rim brakes. I bought one bike with Sram Force Discs, the bike was intended for foul weather, dirty roads etc. But it does not work! I had two brake cylinders with stuck pistons which could not be refurbished to work again. As Sram does not sell cylnders, I had to buy switch gear with brakes. Very expensive experience. On the other hand I have DT Swiss Oxic wheels: No rim wear, very less brake pad wear, reasonable weight and super brake performance. Guess what my next bike will have ...
I have three rim brake eleven spd, press fit carbon wonders. I have never struggled with not enough felt or power from my brakes, and yes, lucky enough to have ridden the alps etc. Ergonomics of the levers...... sweet. Wheel rims kasting more than 30,000km. Cable routing, semi internal and easy to maintain, no rattle. Three different bb30 installations, all as quiet as a mouse. I had more trouble with the previous threaded bbkts on earlier bikes. Now we have the best or worst of both, a threaded adaptor, commonly with a cartridge bag in it. We still have that press fit bearing. My bikes aren't broke and are easy to work on. No brake noise. I feel sorry for anyone trying to keep up with evolution, must be expensive. I reckon it's gonna be a long time before evolution stops, so good luck trying to keep up with that.
Late comment but I'm still doing it! Disc brake pads last weeks in the Swiss alps. They wear away on the 1200m descents very quickly. Rim brake pads last years. It's dry enough here that I can pretty much ride as much as I want without having to ever unpack my rain jacket so the one advantage of disc brakes is lost on me. I'm not a pro rider with the time and money to replace the pads every few weeks so it's rim brakes every time. I'm even selling my disc brake bike and have already replaced it with a rim brake dinosaur.
You'll be telling me you're spending Xmas with David Arthur next. The best brakes I have had on a bike were Hydraulic rims - the feel from those I couldn't get from a disc (especially off-road) without iritating lock-ups. I'm 60 so I'm not looking for balls-out performance - just choice.
I just upgraded the sloppy Tektro rimbrakes on my trusty Cannondale with Shimano 105 dual pivot brakes. The brake cables on the bike are external, which makes for lower friction. I replaced the cables with smoothly polished jagwire "Pro" cables, for even less friction. Also, the curvy bit of the cables is made out of metal and compressionless, which makes the brakes feel very direct and strong. No squishy brake feeling here. Braking is very good in all weather conditions, strong and easy to modulate. Can't see how it can get any better than that. A rimbrake setup is cheap, works very well when properly set up and maintained, is reliables, easy to service and best of all, it is LIGHTER. Compare bikes that are sold in both rim- and disck brake version and see that the disc brake version is at least 500-600 grams heavier. That is a lot. The reason that we went to disc brakes , apart from marketing, is that we started using carbon wheelsets. That makes sense, rim brakes on carbon rims can be problematic. But the lighter weight of the carbon wheels is offset by the higher weight of the disc brakes. You win some, you lose some...
OMG! I had a bike that came with those Tektro brakes. They are absolutely horrible! I bought a pair of Ultegra dual caliper brakes from a dude off Craigslist. Just changing to those were night and day! I couldn't believe they put those on there. They are almost dangerous.
Home maintenance of rim brakes and external cables is just so much simpler. Clinging on to my rim brakes and alloy wheels as.lond as I can source the parts.
To be honest the reason why I think that companies don't come together and make a universal standard is that it might draw some people away from a brand that they are currently using and lose a company money. I also love the rants that you post! We need more people like to to expose the BS in this sport and sort it out.
As someone that really likes things that are functional and clean looking aesthetic I am torn. All of the things you talked about in the video make sense but the beauty of the “bike world” is choice and opinion. I love learning about new specs and different aspects of different manufacturers. I certainly think that making standards would help bike shops a lot with tools and inventory for sure (having experience working in one). I still like rim brakes for the ease of working on them and price point. I think that new low level hydro discs are worse than high level rim. I believe to keep the sport entry level in this economy rim brakes have to be apart of the lineup.
Let’s say it would be possible to agree on a standard. Go back to 1990 and pick the dominant system of then. How would bikes look today? I’ll tell you: no superior hub systems (because qr is the standard), no disc brakes, no hollow BB’s etc etc etc I’m not a fan of the nr of variations in headsets, BB and all that, but asking for a standard while demanding progress does not work.
But if I spend a tremendous amount of money on bike today, will it be obsolete in 3 years? Not all of use want to buy an expensive new complete bike every few years just to keep up with technology that many of us don't actually need/want. I don't ride in the rain and don't have excessively long descents near me, so disc brakes are pointless for me, and I don't really miss having Di2 when I jump on my mechanical bike. I love the sport and ride about 20,000kms/yr , but I'm starting to turn to running now simply because the prices are so out of control.
A lot of the modern "upgrades" aren't really. Disc brakes are great for 32mm tires and above, can live without plush Di2 cell phone group sets although I'm sure they're nice, but the best advancement in road bike tech in my book over the last 19 years are Deep dish carbon wheels, a well worth it upgrade I'd recommend to anybody. I ride a 2009 bike with deep carbon rims and it performs just as well and better in some circumstances than my newer rigs, I still enjoy and actively ride both my old and new rigs. There are some great new bikes on the market, no doubt, snag one if you can, but deep dish carbon wheels and nice compact stiff frame geometry are pretty much future proof.
Discs suck for road bikes (and I have a disc brake road bike along with 3 rim break road bikes) one example, I want to service my headset or change the bearings, easy job with rim brakes, with discs its a major undertaking as my hydraulic hoses are routed through the forks and so a simple task has now become something else, same with cutting down my steerer tube if I drop my stem at any point, so enjoyable tasks for home mechanics who enjoy looking after their own bikes now becomes a major bind and/or a trip to the bike shop which in turn costs more money and time off the road. You also highlighted the extortionate price of disc brake pads in a recent video which in the current financial climate is another case of customers getting screwed over and over.
Rim brakes for me in the summer, maintenance so simple. Disc in the winter, maintenance simple, but long winded and can be noisy. I’ve managed to do internal cabling a couple of times now, but it brings my anxiety out before hand😁
To add to this - yes rim brake for lightweight summer bike, nothing more needed... but then for a proper Northern winter I'd still not go for a disc road bike and instead just go straight to a disc cross bike or gravel bike, as the tyres are then more appropriate for winter roads... there's no point in having really powerful brakes with skinny slicks on cold frosty slippery tarmac, most of the winter is so bad on my local roads that a 29er mtb is the right tool for job!
Luckily, square-taper BBs are still the latest and greatest for nice steel bicycles, when not using components from the big 3. It's just so nice to have one Standard, and you can easily get exact replacement parts for a >30 year old frame. The only annoyance there is ISO vs. JIS, of course 😭
@@Mapdec I think it boils down to budgets and needs. I try to brake as little as possible whilst trying to keep my rides as safe as possible. I'm very apprehensive about being bullied into having to buy new group sets and eventually bikes. I'm sure there are millions of us with 90's and early 2000's bikes that we just don't want to dump because Shimano or Sram have come up with something more efficient and ultimately more expensive. I'm based in Spain, in biggish town and getting deore lx cantilever brake pads is virtually impossible. Some bike shops suggested getting a new bike instead of new brake pads. Ultimately, if you are in your 30's, just get 10 of whatever components you need on ebay while they are still available and bob's your uncle, sorted for the rest of your life.
I see nothing wrong with rim brakes and alloy rims: functional and durable. Never wanted for braking power on a road bike, including in the wet on steep descents. Nor do the brake tracks wear too quickly. But why do we need three mount standards (nut, hidden bolt & direct mount)? For racing machines & thus carbon wheels I can easily see the benefit of disc brakes to remove the brake track. And offroad. I don't think the brifter bodies can get much smaller for hydraulic brakes: there is a certain amount of liquid required in the reservoir to enable the brake blocks to move. As for mineral oil versus DOT 5.1, I'd like to see mineral oil go completely: no defined standard, with each manufacturer providing their own blends. DOT fluids are standardised and reasdily available due to the auto industry. For BBs, it's not just shell standards but also axle standards. I'd be quite happy to see DUB & 30mm disappear. In a BSA sized shell, 24mm is far superior. Never had a problem with square tapers, bu have you seen the crazy amount of axle lengths plus the 2 taper standards that created?
Indeed, canary problems. For those of us who've been cycling for over half a century, and still do over a 100kms an outing, for some odd reason, 'super-duper-ultra-whammo-whoopee-do' rings just a little hollow.
@@ozgurinsan It's not that hard once you learn how to do it. On the other hand, the length of the cable brakes changes with every temperature change, after a certain period of time, the length of the cable also gets longer and it is necessary to make adjustments. Once you adjust the disc brakes properly, they will not cause any trouble for a long time.
I agree with you 100% on everything you said. I am 54 years old and so have seen a lot of changes over the past nearly 30 years. Road cyclists can be luddites. I remember well when the cassette started growing from the 5 cog cassettes. I would read magazines and people would write in complaining about it. "Eddie won five on five" was the mantra most regurgitated. For some reason, they thought that a five speed cassette was good enough for Merckx the it should be enough for everyone else. Of course that is ignoring that was what was available when Merckx was racing. If he had a 12 cog cassette available, I'm sure he would have used it. As for standardization, that is one thing I complain about. We used to be able to. mix and match, but that is long gone. I've lost track of the BB standards and the proper cranksets to go with them. I am hoping that a standard, or a couple of them at least, will surface as the "winner" and simplify things
Powers meters and HTII bb's are good reliable new tech, not convinced fat tyres and disc brakes necessary on a road bike, I have them on my MTB where they make sense.
Don’t worry about that. Regardless of how quick or slow it is, in 5-10 years we won’t see rim brake bikes on anything but the low end marketplace bicycles anyway.
@@lovenottheworld5723 oh? So not only are rim brakes less capable, but also only found on more expensive custom bikes now? Wow. You folks will do anything to prop up rim brakes even if it means eating your own words.
I have rim brakes they work fine for me Don’t see why i have to buy a complete new bike if i want to change or upgrade my wheels if only disc compatible are available!!!
I fully agree with the fact that the explosion of "standards" in terms of hubs and BBs is dreadful. The former is a consequence of introducing a mountainbike technology to roadbikes with as little adaptation as possible. Direct mount rim brakes in my experience need less maintenance than a seat post. Disc brakes howerver are straight away the most service intensive component on a road / gravel / cx bike. I can't remember doing two rides in a row on my gravel bike without something annoying me about the state of my discs (Hope RX4 btw). A single bleeding session for those takes longer than all the service my rim brakes see in their entire lifetime. Yes I am sure that discs will be amazing in 10 years, but right now it is an unfinished product. Also, how ironic is it to invest hundreds of €/$/£ to save 2.5 W with ceramic bearings or 1.5 W with an OSPW when you ride arround with discs that are always rubbing after a descent or in the wet?
I’m a cyclist based in SE Asia (Bangkok, Thailand). Having rim rakes & external cables means the technician doesn’t have to be as skilled to work on my bike when skills are lacking here. Plus finding brake pads is so simple compared to all the variations of disc pads on the market today. The cable routing conversation really is a different topic. As for BB’s I do prefer threaded but as you mentioned that could scuffle frame development. I’ve been outta the bike shop business for over 10 years now, if I was to go back I’d definitely need a refresher course.
I use my bikes mainly in dry anyway so rim has enough stopping power for me. In the dry Ultegra stops on a dime. Plus easier to maintain, less drag (what’s the point in a aero frame from marketing dept saying is 1% less drag then disc adds more than this on in drag) plus you can adjust them in a second, no annoying squealing sounds and the big one disc brake bikes are about 1 kilo heavier then the rim which if you do lots of climbs like me you want the lighter bike.
Fair enough, industry standardization would be welcome! I bought a LOOK 795 Blade RS. I SPECIFICALLY chose a rim-brake mechanical groupset model. I was fully aware that it was a last-of-the-dinosaurs situation!!
Quill stems are easier to use and look way more elegant than threadless stems. Guess what's the reason for the industry to shift to the new system! They can skip machining the threads on the steerer tube. Just like they now want to avoid making hooks on rims. I'm not paying thousands of pounds for an inferior product. Work for my money! I know I did.
I believe you are mixing a lot of topics into one. Rim v Disc brake is not about lever size. It might be about that for disc brake afficionados, because they were clunky in the beginning, of course. But if you want a bigger brake lever body (rim or disc) and call that progress, well, bigger is always easy to manufacture. We have too many hubs out there, yes. But take away all the rim brake ones, and there are still too many. The shelves are full with stuff, because as long as there is a market niche big enough to turn profit, that's how that works apparently. My deeper point about rim v disc is - as long as disc brake systems are overall heavier, and they will be because physics, I as a consumer want to have a choice to ride what I prefer.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Great comment. I was thinking about how small and light disc levers might become based on how far that have come so far.
@@Mapdec I get your points, and I do like your technical approach. But to say us consumers should ditch one system so "the brands" can develop something better is not how the market works, or innovation works. Innovation comes from competition, and while we will have competing systems and products clogging the shelves, I do not see any other way. Unless, Tyranny, of course, that system could totally pave the way 😛 Center lock is the better standart no doubt. But as long as the consumer buys bikes with 6-hole hubs.... As for brake tracks on carbon fibre composite rims, that can totally be a problem, and the braking on an alloy rim is heaps better, always. As for rim width - as the air above the wheel is already turbulent by the top of the wheel turning into the wind at twice your groundspeed (because the lowest point of the wheel has ground speed of zero, obviously), even the V-brake system could be developped further, or built upon. I am looking forward to the future, actually. But I really hope that no side ever has the power to say "this is better, everybody do this now" when there are still strong arguments to be made about the other systems ;-P This got long winded, sorry!
Haven't all major groupset manufactures been only focusing on disc brake groupsets for years. Shimanos new 12 speed dura ace and ultegra rim brake groupsets still come with last gen calipers. The last rim brake caliper shimano designed was 105 r7000 which came out in 2018. Also you can't ignore that disc brake bikes cost more and are more expensive to maintain. When i got into cycling in 2017 it was a struggle convince my parents to buy me road bike, now it would be impossible with current prices.
While I’m looking forward to new innovations in cycling, I believe for riders like me in majority of South East Asian countries, cost is still a concern and therefore many of us budget cyclist still cling onto old tech offerings in the market. I just spent GBP 300 for a second hand carbon road bike with 105 R5800 rim brake version groupset and to me that’s a significant upgrade from the hand me down aluminum Sora bike I had when I started back cycling during Covid. Using the analogy of golfing : I will start off with budget/second hand golf clubs and upgrade my drivers accordingly while pursuing a better handicap rating as time goes on. Will I be laughed at by the elitist? Most likely, but heck at least I’m out here doing my thing…
Interesting points, here are a few of my own. 1. There's still a place for rim brake bikes, actually as far as road bikes are concerned they are better for the majority of riders because of ease of maintenance, weight, cost, more aero and a few other advantages. Not everyone lives in or rides in an area where rim brakes are clearly disadvantaged vs disk breaks. I would venture a guess that for 80%+ of road cyclists world-wide the advantages of disk brakes are relatively moot as they mostly ride in the flat with slight to medium inclines of various gradients in-between and descents that won't wear out the brake tracks of the rims in short order nor will the rim-braked bike put it's rider in hospital because of melted rims or the like. Those who feel that a disk brake equipped bike is necessary because of more extreme terrain and predominantly bad weather conditions will buy one anyone, but there's no need to force it on everyone just because muh progress for muh money. 2. Standards are a good thing usually, the question is who determines what the de-facto standard for a say a bottom bracket should be? Surely there are many different reasons and motivations why so many different systems exist, some have to do with greed of companies, some with common sense, some with a desire to innovate, so it's a mixed bag really. Experience shows that less choice never leads to lower prices, it's more prone to lead to something like Communism rather than to a more pleasant consumer experience. 3. Internal cable routing is not something that should be universally adopted, it's a pain in the behind and should be reserved for dentists and lawyers who don't mind to drop a few grand to have their prestige bike built-up by a hipster bike mechanic and who probably also bring their bike to the shop to have their tires inflated from time to time but for the general cycling public internal cable routing has no practical advantage other than looking cool until something needs fixing or adjusting and then the customers are relegated to waddle back to the bike shop because muh innovation instead of having a chance of doing some of those maintenance tasks relatively easily themselves. 4. The thought that streamlining of the various systems will lead to better prices for consumers is a pipe dream, the bike industry has lost its way, for the most part, demonstrated by the fact that bike prices are at an all time high, that goes for some of those Marketing department driven "innovative" bikes but also holds true for the still way more traditionally configured choices out there. The truth is, some manufacturers deserve to lose business or even fail, where are the real innovators out there? It's all about the bottom line, never more than today. As long as people keep buying crap these companies will feel encouraged to push out more crap because muh aero gains, muh integration, muh money please. Just my 2 cents, please take it with a grain of salt.
Be real: the motivation behind road-disk is liberation of the rim. Everyone wants deep, carbon rims primarily for aesthetic reasons, which is difficult (but not impossible) with rim-brake. The silver alloy braking track on a rim-brake wheel is the real enemy. The overall braking performance is certainly no better versus a quality rim-brake, with the disk-system being louder, heavier, less user-friendly and more problematic. Form > function alert ☝🏼
@@Mapdec In my experience.. I never wear the pads before the rim. I ride long hills and I use swisstop pads and rims with grooved brake track and breaking eats the pads but rims are nearly unaffected so far. After few thousand km track looks the same, grooves are nearly as deep as they were and I changed lots of pads. I know that some cheper pads eat the rim a lot, but I stick to swisstop and I did not have any issues
Let’s see you try and jam your brakes and come to a stop behind a car that pulls up in front of you to try and make a left turn. I’d bet that on a rim brake you’d have skidded your face into the rear trunk window of the car, while on a disc brake you will likely be shaken, but completely fine with your front wheel inches from kissing the rear bumper. Disc brakes and rim have never been about being able to “stop adequately”, it’s about how well you can stop in inadequate situations. Why do you think we use disc brakes in off road rides? We don’t have the luxury of time to gently come to a stop; it’s all about your ability to viciously shed speed while remaining in control, something which rim brakes fail completely at.
@@slowcyclist4324 wouldnt it comes down to individuals bike handling skills. The veteran bikers out there have control at either really slow and really fast speeds. The issue with average punters they think they are grand tour riders right 😂
It’s not for me very happy on rim brakes, tubed 25mm tyres and Shimano cable shifters. When there’s a comfortable fast accelerating disc bike on 25mm tyres I’ll make the swap. I just find all the bikes on +28mm tyres dull to ride.
Sorry I like my rim brakes and the cost of changing to disc brakes is sky high l use alloy rims and yet to wear out a rim carbon rims not a fan 25 mm tyres have served me for years tubular tyres and still great old fashion sorry
I have a steel frame, alloy rims, rim brakes, square taper BSA bottom bracket. Not cheap, but it’s 22 years old and going strong. I ride about 10k km per annum. The rims last for ever and when they do give up the ghost they are recyclable. Ditto the frame (though that’s got a few decades left in it). Meanwhile the braking performance on the road is absolutely fine. I understand that Mark Cavendish needs a stiffer BB, but why the grief for the rest of us? We seemed to have ended up in the situation where if you buy a cheap bike it’s rubbish, and expensive bikes require all kinds of bespoke this and that to fix. The interests of the bike and group set manufacturers is not the interest of the majority of consumers.
All your points are very well put and make sense for big manufacturers and carbon frames. Must not forget the smaller custom frame and custom component manufacturers though.
imo there is just no need to disc brakes on road bikes for 90% of riders on road bikes... while I get discs are better in wet conditions how many people open the curtains see its hammering it down and go out on the roads 🤦♂️ I no most clubs put on zwift rides now in winter so it says it all. I just use cabon wheels in the summer, spring and most of autumn... in winter if I do go out I'll use alloy training wheels Why are we suddenly going wider that's the question???? it's because disc bikes ride harsher I've got 2 TCRs in 2019 1 disc and 1 rim it's like riding 2 totally different bikes imo. Discs imo have been part of the reason for huge price increases.... I'm not a fan of disc on road, MTB yes but its just over kill imo on road bikes when rim brakes work perfectly well, cheaper, lighter and far easier to maintain.... U don't need hydro brakes to stop a 25 / 28mm tyre.... if your road bike is running tyres like 34mm 🤦♂️😂 is it even a road bike 🤷♂️ Don't get me started on BBs press fit was never the issue the bikes not made to spec was 😂 we where sold years of PF is the way forward.... and now back to thread its a STEP BACK if they made a hole to torranace no issue with a PF system... On this one I think you're well off lol love your videos but #savetherimbrake just give people the option of both simple...
I kind of like that it's a minefield in certain aspects. It has made me think about how I adapt my bikes and get the most out of them. I like the hunt for the solution. I have a 1980's Reynolds tube frame that now runs 11 speed gears, modern stem, compact bars and even has a headset with cartridge bearings. The whole bike has been an evolution over the years and I love that bike. I also have a tarmac sl6 expert that I have recently converted to bsa bb and put a power meter on. The bikes fit my needs because I have made them that way and wouldn't change them for the world
One of the great things about rim brakes is that apart from short and long drip, pretty much every calliper fits pretty much every bike. I can (and have) swapped callipers around between 40 year old bikes and brand new bikes. That’s what you can call a standard.
Except for shot and long drop, single and duel pivot, front and rear specific… oh and Caliper, V brakes, cantilever. Yeah. Otherwise rim brakes totally standard. 🤷♂️
@@Mapdec I said calliper, acknowledged short and long. Single and dual pivot both fit the same hole. Front and back yes, but you buy them in pairs like shoes. V brakes and cantis are normally interchangeable. But which ever way you want to describe it, nothing has changed for years. Whatever you say, I’m sticking with rim brakes until there are no replacements left.
I just replaced my gravel bike brake discs after riding as commuter for 3 years. It only cost me $15 USD. If I had do replace rim wheels, the cheapest would be at least $150 USD for both wheels. I have a rim brake road bike and I only ride for weekends.
an con with internal brake routing is you have to disconnect the brake, so this means no fast hot swapping of brakes. My Geometron G1 allows that, so I can do back to back testing of brakes If I wanted to. But I love the simplicity, so easyto work on. but the dropper post is internally routed but it's done well, so it goes into the seat tube, no problem, no bending of the hose or using the expensive park tool internal routing tool. I have it, but don't need it for myself, but if a friend brings a problematic bike I can sort it out.
I'm a retrogrouch and the thought of a new bike is depressing. Press fit BB (vs BB86), disk vs rim (I'm fine with Alu rims and rim brakes), cable routing (can I just change the cables easily please?), Tubeless? ...Could GAF. More batteries, oh dear lord. Maybe if I had a bike shop like yours in my area I'd feel differently. But finding competent service with the right tools is just a chore more and more with all the different standards and precision needed to make sure things are aligned properly. But I have to say I've greatly enjoyed all the videos you've been making lately and while I might not agree with this particular video I think what you've been putting out is great.
I love my rim brakes. A tech that is old, yes, but very mature, about 100 years mature. Maybe in the future I will get a Diskbrake bike, when the tech goes reliable, cheaper, and many iterations solve the hassle that is having them. China is making their own take on hydraulic diskbrake that don't suck and is not expensive. It's not there yet, but making enough noise to keep me interested.
I am actively seeking out rim-brakes and friction shifters for ease of maintenance. I don't wanna deal with hydro fluid, kinked cables, or electronic shifting. esp. the latter. I think in one of your previous vids a commenter counted the parts on a bike one has to get charged to go on a ride and it was (at least) a total of 11 (!!). My 80ties. Randonneuring bike with friction downtube shifting and rim brakes needs nothing charged to be able to ride it. That's how cycling should be, not an elitist flex, showing off the newest wirelss (OMG!) shifting, but more inclusive to all who want to join with their mechanical shifting and rim brakes. Before rim brakes need to be done, cycling as a whole needs to improve :)
Elitist Flex....Well said....I am stealing that Sir. WTF is going on with cyclists and all this "gear and kit"?. Just ride, break a sweat and have some fun.
Your 80s bike with whatever shifting certainly needs something; a modern and adaptable cyclist. You should check your calendar; have you noticed that it’s 2022?
@@anthonylarson7919 because that’s part of the fun in cycling? Some cycle so you can enjoy their bike, and some ride their bike so they can enjoy their cycling? What’s won’t with that? If anything; it’s you folks gatekeeping cycling with your idea of “oh cycling is not about the gear, it’s about just cycling and pushing yourself” who are the real elitist problem plaguing this hobby.
@@slowcyclist4324 2016 Skylon...I ride the hell out of it. All types of weather, no problems....although it will probably explode on my ride today now that I've stated this..haha
I feel like many of these points are valid, very much so for new tech, but we should definitely consider that much of the older established tech has formed into de facto standards. English threaded BB, square taper, v-brake or caliper, cable brakes/shifters, 1-1/8" threadless or quill, etc. There are more but those kinds of standards. I don't see anything wrong with builders choosing to use these kinds of old standards for components on current production bikes. The new bikes benefit from an already existing pool of inexpensive replacement parts, and the older bikes benefit from securing long term availability of their replacement parts, keeping them in service longer
Great video! Standardization helped every industry it touched. I feel in some respects we're getting there slowly. The BB situation is additionally complicated by tons of different axle standards so the number of stuff you need to keep in stock gets ridiculous. BSA is fine with steel axles like GXP or Shimano standard, but for aluminium axles which are wider the bearings are these tiny things. I wish we'd settle on T47 and PF30 but BSA will probably live forever on sheer inertia. That'd still be 12 bottom brackets if you look at just SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo axles plus legacy GXP (which is dying but bikes with it will still be around for years and years to come).
I agree abut rim brakes. My main issue is the rain and how I can’t stop with wet rims. I do not ride in the rain on purpose, but at times it happen, and I simply cannot be confident of stopping well. My next bike with have hydraulic disc.
The reticence is coming as much from the fact that the shift to discs requires the purchase of the whole bike, a big money making/ profit enhancing trick that brands learnt from MTB in the last decade - so it cuts out the rider on a limited budget who was able to source carefully selected older gen components to make a competitive build. Progress is fine but pulling up the stepladder of participation is not and will ultimately damage the industry in our current economic dystopia which is disproportionately affecting the youngsters who will form the industry's future customer base- we're in the region where 4/5/6k just gets a relatively stodgy mid range build with 11spd, the progress of the new group sets may be great but the pricing is for dentists/ bankers. And yeah BB30/PF30 is the spawn of the devil himself, possibly the industry's worst invention, lots of otherwise perfectly good bikes ruined or short-lived by sloppy implementation ... and they know it.
6-bolt rotors do have one advantage though -- they allow for a larger bearing on the non-drive side. Center-lock will only allow up to 28mm bearing, which forces hubs with 17-mm axles into the hard-to-find 17x28 bearings (instead of the widely available and standard 17x30).
@@Mapdec Hey I also want to no longer use CONDOMS but you know if I dont then I get sick down there..... Good things manufactures offer different sizes, colors and flavors! Maybe they should offer one size fits all....
Internal cables are great, but, as a amateur cyclist I believe that fully internal going by the steam and head tube is a bit too much. It's too complicated and the aerodynamic looses for an amateur are minor. As we've seen in Tarmac SL7, it may cause more issues than advantage. I own 2022 Canyon Ultimate CFR eTap, and it's not an issue for me, that I have those two cables not fully internally routed like in the 2023 model. But I agree to the rest totally!
Hub motor braking (way heavier though 🤔), has worked smoothly and flawlessly on my electronic longboard (Boosted Board, out of business) for 5 years now using a rechargeable Bluetooth remote. Get the electronics right and reliability is possible.
As much as I would also like to see the move to mineral oil, the problem is that the mineral oils are have no regulation or standards. If you use Morgan Blue instead of Shimano, you void the warranty with Madison on any Shimano items. At one point it was near impossible to get Shimano oil, so the only choice our shop had was to use Morgan Blue. Whereas with Dot5.1 it has all been regulated to a highway standard, and the oil you get from Fenwick's is the same as what you get from Halfords.
I am hydraulically agnostic. On a road bike I would take decent mechanical discs over rim or hydraulic disc any day. Shimano RS305s, BB7s, growtac equals, etc can all be set up more powerful with a smoother lever feel than road hydros. Use compressionless housing, metallic pads, and a trained hand. No bleeding, easy adjustment, much more reliable/repairable long term. As far as shifting I’m still on 2x10 speed. I just couldn’t care less as long as I have the ratios I need and the jumps between them aren’t too big. 9 speed would probably even be enough for me. As a mechanic I see much more terminal problems with electronic/hydraulic components than mechanical. I’m fine with that trade off on a mtb where your brakes and shifting components can be replaced separately, but on road that’s just too much planned obsolescence built in to the group for too little performance gain. At the end of the day this increased complexity and lack of adjustability is probably bad for the sport. Customers typically can’t keep up with the inflated maintenance costs of these bikes, so a lot of the time they just end up riding worse. Also integrated cockpits have more riders than ever on bikes that just don’t fit them correctly and they can’t swing the costs to adjust.
This makes a great deal of sense from a forward thinking perspective. There are countless bikes from the past 40 years that are still very serviceable. There will always be a place for these older standards. I hope quality parts are available to keep these bike rideable and enjoyable.
Narrowing specs to be more universal for all make bike service more convenient that's for sure. However it makes a innovation in that particular area way more difficult.
Have'nt you had enough of clients crying about their disc brakes squealing, touching and not working properly? And seeing as you sold them the bike this service of putting them right everytime, in their eyes should FOC (free of charge). Because I have. I keep saying I'm done with teaching donkeys to fly! You cannot beat the praticallity of a quick release and the simplicty of putting a front or rear wheel in the frame, over the same thing with disc brakes. Caliper pistons need constant cleaning before the pad residual material bakes itself to the exposed edge of the pistons, thus avoiding it's full retraction, hence why pads keep rubbing! Yes the power of hydraulic oil and the lesser amount of force needed to pull the lever wins over a corroded hard to pull rusty brake cable. But is everyone happier with the raised level of maintainance I ask? And once you've baked them pads whether they're new or not, you're gonna have to change them. The same for a disc which has risen above 200°C on a long descent, once it's cooked and turned brownish/purple colour it's Knackered and will just squeal! I'll hang on to my BR9000 calipers and traditional Fulcrum wheels for now, and when I can't brake anylonger maybe one day I'll convert myself over to the darkside of cycling! Cheers Rant over. 🙂
Good Rant. Well, we don’t sell bikes. Don’t want to. We do fix a lot of poor builds from direct brands and bike shops being too quick on the PDI checks and sending stuff out misaligned, or brake mounts covered in paint. We have worked on disc for so long now it is no hassle, just what we do. Customers for the most part want them.
@@Mapdec yes I find that 9 out of 10 want Disc Di2 Axs and Tubeless.....I guess I am just old school and want a simple days work in the workshop, but with thw majority of our clients here in Milan, they're mostly wingers that continue on about having paid 10grand for a bike, that there should be no defects or problems whatsoever. Well we all know that simply is'nt the way it is.
Really? There is virtually no more performance road bikes offered or developed with rim brakes and if I still like them I also need to feel responsible for the slow development of disc brake bikes? It's a lose lose situation! I apologise to everyone for owning 2 rim brake bikes. Oh, and a frame as well. That's 3. I'm sooo sorry 😂😂😂
Me too, i live on an environment where there's many hills, potholes, trafic, and as a commuter i also ride thru rains.. rim brake is nice looking and doesn't squeal, i really really hope i can still use rim brakes but it's expensive also can be dangerous for me to keep it that way. every time i use rim brake bad things happens especially when it's rainy season, I remember how hard i squeeze the levers but the bike keep on rolling while on front of me is a car also slowly going down d hill, both brake pads and rims got beaten fast, sometimes they even catch a pebbles, gunk everywhere, etc., fortunately i also have experience as a bikemech so i can manage to change my own rim but eh it's more sad compared to just replace a rotors, i can't even consider a nicer pair of rims because im afraid it'll gone fast. Also i want more bikes coming with easy maintenance in mind, but more importantly a better QC pass tolerance, i do my own bikes so i want it both fast on home and down the road without a drama. P.S Not so Fun fact: 1 out of 9 bikes i ever own doesnt have some lv of misalignments that i could spot.
@@Mapdec yes sir, pardon it's 7 as far as i remember, it's ten years of journey lol 1 is an alloy sport xc bike which has a rear dropout misalign, the rear wheel tilted slightly to one side i had to file it to straighten it. 2 is a chromoly cx with crowned fork but one blade is a bit more to the front, so when i straighten the handlebars the result when following dropout are not the same when following the crown, i bring to the shop but no good thing happen since. 3 is flat bar alloy urban/sport, first i got one that has misaligned bottle bosses, so when i put a bottle cage and bidon i seen it lean to one side, fortunately i told the guy at shop and they replaced the bike. 4 is a chromoly road bike with carbon-alu blade, both front and rear dropout has a slight misalign 5 is steel folding bike, the joint of midtube to head tube are not centered. 6 is alloy xc and by far the worst, FD direct mount type but it's bit rotated to the front, rear dropout misaligned, and seattube tilt to right, downtntube joints not centered 7 is steel 26in ATB with misaligned rear dropout. Some of them are from quite famous and big brand. Also found my friends' and clients' bike has some lv of issue too, like misaligned fork, tilted saddle out of the box, tilted disc brake mount, rear dropout, etc. Just makes me wonder WTH is happening, what did they do wrong and how can they fix it so everyone can receives a perfectly aligned bike, lol.
I guess the problem with: let's get behind disc brakes is that many people feel that it was prematurely and artificially pushed by industry. I think if the industry are going to force a change on their customers then it's their responsibility to get it right. We still see stories of the pros subtlely or not so subtlely preferring rim to disc at the highest level of competition, one example being froomey. The pros have access to the best, most quality controlled stuff and the best mechanics, so if they're still having issues and preferring rim, it makes sense that the average Joe is too.
I think a lot of the issues with disc brakes are the manufacturers have not figured them out yet, and the LBS mechanics have no idea as well. No way in Hell I would let some hung over LBS mechanic work on my discs if I had em...
@@kangzosa I hear ya. For such a simple machine there are a lot of bike issues. Simple cables, hoses, wires, levers and bearings. Does this industry just attract poor craftsmen?.
@@anthonylarson7919 I blame the engineers/designers of these products much more than I do bike mechanics. I think the important part about having the trifecta of Shimano Sram Campy isn't about having competition around the basic price of a groupset, but having competition that drives superior design. Unfortunately they all seem to want to compete on who can have the most cogs on a cassette at the back. I get that we want healthy competition but I do wish Shimano made carbon frame bikes. Even with lackluster shimano design for certain things, their manufacturing quality and consistency of output is second to none, I'm pretty sure they'd figure out how to consistently make holes round on the bottom brackets of bikes, at the very least.
The big question is how to get all brands on the same page. I remember bmx brands sticking their heads together in around 2006 to come up with a universal bb standard (mid bb) that ended the mess which was usa/spanish/euro bb…
As a guy that does all of his own maintenance plus most of his friends, I'm no fan of carbon frames, disk brakes, electronic shifting and don't even mention internal cable routing especially through the bars and stem. It is all about
Would you consider a video dispelling some of the disc maintenance myths and perhaps demonstrating some practical advice for those doing their own maintenance? One thing I keep reading about is over filling systems so I would be interested to know how to avoid that trap.
This entire rant should not be directed at the customer… It’s the industry that has a problem here - I’m not switching from my 130 rim brake bikes until I can buy a new bike which has the ability to switch groupset manufacturers - there are no “standard” standards any more. It’s like software going to subscription - it’s all just to get more sales… I was a shop mechanic spanning 1” headtubes going to 1 1/8 going to the whole tapered mess we’ve got now. Let’s face it there has always been bsa va Italian threading…
Just found your channel and very much enjoying your insights on various topics! I have a stable of three bikes. One is a cromoly frame bike that I've had for about 15 years, with rim brakes. One is an aluminum frame bike with disc brakes (about 5 years old) and another is a carbon frame with disc brakes (about 3 years old). During the past couple of years, I've had the pleasure of experiencing spoke blowouts on three different occasions -- all on the disc brake bikes (actually just one spoke breaking, each time). Not remarkable for most people, I guess. But for me, I had never had a spoke break even one time on my rim-brake bike, so I was quite surprised when it happened on my disc brake bikes. I know there are probably a number of variables at play. But do you have any insight on whether the brake type itself has an impact on the wear and tear on spokes? (I'm still putting a lot of miles on my rim brake bike and still no spoke breakage.)
A lot of stuff is proprietary. For every center lock disk you must pay royalty to shimano. Making its double or triple the price. Same with dot fluid and many other things.
This sir, needs to get heard world wide in the bike manufacturing industry. Well done. Solid and valid suggestions. Let's hope it eventually materialises.
Who, manufacturer-wise, isn't all behind disc brakes? Very few, if any major companies offer a rim brake performance frame anymore. What groupset/component company has put one iota of R&D into rim brakes in the last ten years? I'm all for disc brake development, the difference between this Shimano 105/Ultegra/Dura-Ace is worlds better than the last iteration, but I still don't want the added expense/weight/maintenance of disc brakes. Stock in those rim brake parts is how some of us who've bought our "forever bikes" keep them running. And I'm perfectly fine not finding this stuff at LBSs, but I still want them to be able to work on them. NOS is great, but that stuff won't last forever. Love the channel! Glad I found it. Keep it up!
Certainly agree re disc brakes. The last time I bought a rim brake bike for myself was last century. Don't agree with you on Bottom brackets but I suspect you are right anyway. Both my bikes (Giant Revolt and Norco Revolver) have press fit bottom brackets, and I've had no issues with them. However manufacturers do seem to be phasing out press fit in favour of threaded bottom brackets.
I get it! Keeping all that stock is killing business. The smaller ma and pop shops can't do it. The problem is as you pointed out, Cannondale is their worst enemy for example. New standards are created for the marketing department to work with. Manufacturers duel with their patents and royalties.
Tulio Campagnolo held back innovation in his time when they had an effective monopoly. The Japanese ended all that. The bicycle used to be such a simple machine. The UCI has as part of its mission to keep the bicycle looking like a bicycle with safe equal competition between athletes. It's not America's Cup between billionaires. At some point, where do we draw the line between business and sensibility?
Such a good post. Thank you!
I agree with David’s comment.
My thoughts was more closer the car manufacturer with tech, reversing sensors, lane control etc when people try these new tech they don’t want, then the prices of vehicles, stupid price, you can see the prices of new bikes as well, not good. The rim brakes issue maybe we are looking at wrong maybe wrong material for brake pads, I don’t know. I can see cycling going down the same route as cars, that includes ebike. Just my thoughts, but it opens up a good debate.
Total BS you just order the part from Junk and Bargains International JBI etc. 🙄 So don't believe this...
I am just soo triggered right now 😒. This is what happens at the shop when you have a part not available. The sales person looks on QBP or Junk and Bargins for the part. They order it then double the price. If you want it right away you pay for shipping if not you wait for the shops main order shipment and the shipping is free. If you live in a big city like Denver QBP delivers the product the same day. So this is not a problem. Shops can't keep everything on hand
@@jaredfontaine2002 sorry to trigger. But glad I inspired your insightful comment.
I like rim brakes and external cabling : it's very easy to maintain as I always try to do all the servicing myself. Sorry bike shops but I have seen too much of them working, I guess, "too fast", which I understand, but I spend too much time on my bike, I like the setup to be perfect, and if something is wrong it's my fault, I will do better next time, and I didn't pay for it anyway, you loose time for training, but you become a better mechanic, wich is skill that's valuable for my friends, colleagues, and family.
And for rim brakes they are quite cheaper, I also have small hands and appreciate small shifters.
I have Hydro DB on my MTB, I like them too, no worries about that, and I never thought "I would rather have V-brake on them".
I have completely abandonned the idea of converging technology for bikes, but we would need are standards, the BB is indeed a great exemple about that.
I guess everyone making a bit of everything is not that bad anyway.
Cheers
Top comment. Thanks for getting stuck in
Rim brakes are miles more forgiving than disc brakes. The bike is expected to suit the rider not the other way around. There are far too many bike riders where the cons easily outweigh the pros of disc brakes.
@@Mapdec I'm surprised you didn't have a go at manufacturers for putting disc brakes on kiddies bikes. Kids are not heavy enough, they don't ride fast enough and they are not allowed out riding in the pouring rain, why oh why would they ever need the superior braking power of disc brakes? Manufacturers not thinking things through is what is actually stifling innovation.
I use disc brakes for two decades now,but on my mtb!
On my race bike there’ll always be rim brakes.
They had a century to evolve and are at their prime now-I don’t have many mountains around where i live so disc brakes are pointless 🤷♂️
Thank you! He is getting paid by Specialized...
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not. I’ve never had an issue with rim brakes or mechanical 10/11 speed. Don’t have to worry about charging/replacing batteries for shifting or bleeding brakes or paying through the nose for brake pads. Quick release is awesome for travelling with a bike too. I think early to mid 2010’s was the pinnacle of road bike design. Rider focused with practicality in mind.
Laughs in cable replacement and gear indexing.
@petef15 indexing is a peice of piss tbf. Takes 5 minutes and an Allen key
@phatmandon22 batteries are easy to charge and thru axles are easy to install and remove😂
@@veganpottertheveganbut sometimes a pain to remove or access the charging port. And bleeding can be a faf
@yohansharp3040 most frames aren't bad and really only first gen brifters had bleeding difficulties.
We already are where we want to be, at least some of us. The manufacturers need to stop fuking us with bs "tech" and planned obsolescence. Riding isn't about tech its about riding. And this is coming from a professional mechanic. And we are not all appreciating going wider.
You can run 28c or 30c easily with rim brakes, which is my sweet spot. I don't ride in the rain and I've never had a problem with compression less housing and Kool stop orange stopping me predictably at 50mph so eh. Disc brakes have gotten pretty easy to work on (Shimano at least)
@@senorspiegel In my experience disc brakes (mechanical or hydraulic) are not nearly as easy to work on as rim. Rim brakes don't squeal every time a bike owner touches the rotor, sweats on it, gets random chemicals on it. Maybe most aren't, but if you're a skilled rider rim brakes are good in wet.
@@jonnyoneplate well said. I am in Midwest USA.. I ride rim 404's in the worst weather no problemo. I had 2 Canyons with discs and the rubbed when climbing hard. And "ghost" shifted with SRAM 12. Sold em both. Bank to rim and mech Dura Ace
Spot on !! I couldn't agree more so much bs in the bike industry we are not all cash cows
So to stop my rims wearing out (which they never have), I just need a new frame, groupset and wheels? OK that sounds like a winning idea!
Exactly. Especially if you drive on flats like I do a lot in the Netherlands, rims are more than enough. Easy, lightweight, cheap, simple to repair and to troubleshoot. I currently also have a road disc bike and yes, I do see the advantages but really for riding in the Netherlands it's a waste of money. Those bikes costing €3000 with their 105 + discs aren't any better suited for that riding than a €500 ebay bike with rims, and that one will be faster too :)
Wow. I guess you guys don’t see that same kinda problems we do. Thanks for adding your comment to the chat.
@@Mapdec Thanks for replying! What problems exactly do you mean? For riding in a flat country like the Netherlands, my rim brake systemsix from 2008 offered everything I need. For me it is just great that I can go out and ride an excellent carbon frame that weighs under 9 kg for just €400. And when stuff breaks, I fixed it myself. Get some parts from the bike shop, and done. I moved to an area with more hills now and got myself a disc brake road bike, and I'm very happy with it. But I already had some of the typical issues with brake rub, and I know that if something really goes wrong with this system it will be much more difficult to repair. Still, it descends way more confidently than my old bike, so I'm happy with it. I wanted better braking, and I got it. But for the flats, in my opinion, it's not necessary. Might also just be because I'm a
@@Mapdec Ummm...if there are no problems why does one need bike repair....or people to affect repairs. LBS role is to repair, maintain and prevent issues not create them....
I'm in the trade and see more problems with modern bikes now than we ever saw before, much can be down to customer negligence or ignorance regarding care or maintenance.
Club riders rarely needed bike shops for regular maintenance, I'm still riding Campag equipment on Roberts bikes, my oldest bike is from the 80s, how many of todays bikes will be in use 40 years from now?
With the state of the environment, should we be encouraging disposable non recyclable bikes?
I am happy with were I am with rims and don't need cyclo-cross bike on the road
I use my cyclocross on the road. It's got slightly bigger tire clearance, a solid frame, and cantilever rim brakes which - when properly set - brake like a charm and have nothing to envy to disc brakes!
I enjoy the sound of disc brake pads constantly rubbing as if I need something else to slow me down. Disc brakes as of now are aggravating!!
Sounds like they need alignment checking Scott
Sounds like little sword fight on your wheels
@@Mapdec every day
I think the rim brakes on my road bike are the parts that i have the least issues with, if any. I actually doubled down on them and got me special lights that mount on rim-brakes only.
Yip, really bullet proof, but you should change it for disc brakes lol
I like the performance of road disc brakes, but the maintenance requirements and therefore costs are very high compared to rim brakes. I live in Switzerland and ride a lot of hills. I have found that pad and rotor life is shockingly low (1000km for pads and 2500km for rotors), not to mention the occasional brake bleeding requirements. Compare that with my rim brake road bike where my last set of pads pads lasted 20,000 km and the wheels lasted 30,000 km. that bike needs virtually no maintenance, the disc bike is far more needy. I would like to see the manufacturers concentrate on making longer lasting components!
exactly...
Even if cyclists could agree (and we can't), I don't think all of us getting behind something makes a bit of difference to the bike manufacturers. As far as rim brakes holding back wheel innovation, I don't see it. Most (all?) of the new wheels by the big names have completely written off rim brakes. I'm grateful that certain Chinese brands continue to bring out their new wheels with rim brake options.
Yes. It is getting harder to find carbon rim brakes now.
Brands may be scaling back development of rim wheels, but some of the last generation are realistically as good as they need to be. Campag/ Fulcrum and others still supporting rim options for now and they are top performing wheels, the latest brake tracks are fine- China direct brands will let you customise anything you need. The spectre of limited availability is atleast for now, a myth to encourage stodgy disc bike sales.
The bike makers could give a shite about what the customers want....what cyclist wants a $15k bike that is heavier and slower that a 10 yo $3k bike...
I've never worn out a set of alloy rims, and I've never owned a set of carbon rims. I guarantee you I enjoy cycling just as much as anyone with the latest carbon fiber deep section wheels, overly loud free hubs with a gajillion contact points, and invisible hydraulics and wires running all up and down their carbon frames. I suspect I enjoy it more because I'm not constantly chasing the tech. All I want is for good quality alloy rims and rim brake systems to still be made. I don't buy at all any argument that says if component makers keep making the older stuff then they have no money for R&D. That is, frankly and bluntly, BS.
@@nellyx1x493 Spot on! We don't want better and better alloy wheels; they're good enough now. We just don't want them to become impossible to buy.
In reality, mere mortal weekend warriors like myself will probably set faster times on (lighter) rim brake bikes. It's difficult to justify "upgrading" to Dura Ace 9200 when I don't require more braking power or an extra 20T high gear. A new disk brake bike is likely heavier, less dependable, and more difficult to maintain/fix.
@@cc-000 the aero benefits will be largely irrelevant on a 4 -5 hour ride, I'm not saying that aerodynamics can't have huge benefits given the ideal conditions or the right reason, but why is the marketing making out that it's a must have.
Deep section wheels are bloody awful in windy weather and a nuisance on club runs.
@@cc-000 no disc brake wheel does have better aerodinamcis than a rim brake wheel ,that is just bizzare marketing koolaid. One issue is front wheel asymmetry and other is disc rotor that is always designed to catch air
@@cc-000 absolute bollocks disc Brake bikes are heavy and as I’m not doing 30 mph all the time it makes no difference to me go to some hill climb races you can’t move for disc brake bikes not because they’re f@@king heavy
@@oreocarlton3343Try changing a disc brake bike's rear tube at night in the rain after a long hard day at work - on your commute home when the thru axel plays up, and the brake pad wont align when you try to put the wheel back in place - this in when you realize that gettiing 'behind the future of the sport' was a very bad mistake and you have been conned into a heavier, much more expensive & more complex bike with marketting gimmicks and 💩🐂💩.
Disc bikes are really aimed at people who have professional mechanics following them in the team car, not weekend cyclists or commuters. I need my bike to be 110% reliable with no issue if I need to change a tube quickly, I need to be able to change the tube in less than 2 minutes, start to finish as I use my bike for commuting as part of a busy day, I cannot risk being late for work because of a problem with a wheel change on the way to work.. I therefore have zero margin for difficulty with changing a wheel - this means discs are out of the question, no way acceptable - disc = weight, expense, hassle & danger.
Yes, we should get behind the disk brakes. 😂 I live in Austria. Quite some big descends here. Never had any issues with rim breakes. They are lighter, more aero and are easy to fix.
You missed less efficient, which is the most important thing about braking .
My bike riding experience would be far worse if I were stuck with disc brakes. I just don't need them. The expense, service cost, weight is enough alone to pass. Disc brakes would be trying to fix a problem that does not exist for me. My rim brakes never ever make a sound, need almost zero maintenance and cost a fraction to purchase and maintain. I put 8000 km on a new set of carbon rims last year and the pads are not used up yet and the brake track still looks like brand new. Never have I thought my braking performance was lacking. I need disc brakes because why???
I also don't think I'm an unusual case. You are suggesting your problems should be my problem... Good luck sorting your issues.
Such a good point. It does seem our steep and wet environment is causing us quite unique problems
well said Larry....when is the last time you had an issue with rim brakes....probably never
The smoothness of a 105 crank turning a threaded hambini bb. The balance of a single pivoting caliper squeezing flashpros onto a machined alloy rim. The reassurance of a svelte hooked tyre prized onto a ride. And the tangible visuals of a mechanical gear change. I think we have arrived with no batteries required mate 🤟
Poetry 😎
Yes, let's all get behind heavier, more expensive, harder to maintain, noisier brake technology that requires stiffer riding frames, wheels, and forks.🤣 I'll stick with my no nonsense, fully external, mechanical, rim brake on light alloy rims with 28s that I just get on and ride a big hill on every day with no issues 🙃
People keep saying that disc brake bikes ride stiffer. Can someone actually prove that to me. I had a 2013 Cannondale SuperSix and also have a newer disc brake SuperSix. The disc brake model does not ride more harsh than my old one. That is with similar depth carbon wheels. (The new one has slightly deeper wheels) and both running 25mm tires. Granted, you could make a case of it being a newer frame. But, it rides great.
@@DaveCM You can make a rim brake bike as stiff as a disc bike. But you can't make a disc bike as compliant as a rim brake bike that's designed for compliance. Disc fork and wheel has to be able to handle the torque of braking without shuddering, so that sets the floor for stiffness for disc bikes. Rim fork and wheels can be built much lighter and more compliant because braking force is transferred through the rim, not the spokes and fork legs.
@@DaveCM the forks would have too be stiffer to take the extra forces applied on such a small area the torsional pull from a disc must be quite significant.
Sorry, you're using 'OuTdAtEd TeCh' and what you describe is impossible, discs are the way forward!
>This comment was sponsored by a bike shop around you trying to sell more €3500 9kg bikes with 'modern' tech.
100%....I've a tcr sl disc for wet descents, everything else is the 2018 supersix. As a bike mechanic I see some horrendous takes in this video
The rim brakes are great and external routing is awesome, easy to maintain inspect and adjust in couple of minutes.
Besides that they also whey less and have similar performance, except the bad weather conditions when most people ride on the trainer.
They come at a lower price, lower weight, shorter time of installation.
Disc brakes do not perform any better in bad weather conditions then good rim brake pads. This is just perpetuated marketing BS.
@@rosomak8244As someone who commutes in all weathers (latest ultegra calipers and alu rims), I'm afraid stopping power and reliability for the same lever squeeze is much lower than in my discs.
Being someone with hand injuries and small hands, discs have been a godsend.
@@rosomak8244 Mine work just fine in the rain, snow, etc.
When we get rid of rim brakes we can really start innovating with some heavier less responsive more expensive wheelsets. Your video is a masterclass in sarcasm well done sir!
Money. Cyclists with large incomes will flex with the latest gear. That’s cool to see. However, I love the simplicity of things that have always worked and cost very little to upkeep - like rim brakes on road bikes. The stock issue you mention, plus multiple molds, may be why the manufacturers stopped giving consumers a choice. Luckily I still have my rim brake, mechanical shifting bike and will save the discs for the dirt.
It’s a good point.
All those standards were driven by the change to first aluminium and then carbon as a frame and components material. The old standards are still optimal for steel frames with aluminium parts.
Let's look at the bottom bracket. The square taper standard works for commuters as well as sprinters. There are no alignment issues and the bearings are big enough. The whole system is easy to manufacture and therefore there are cheap options. It's not that hard to use different spindle lengths for different chainlines.
Aluminum rims with rim brakes are a winning combination. They work great up to 54 mm tyres. They allow for flexible forks which improve traction and comfort. That's the purpose-built no compromise high performance option.
For me it came down to money. The disc version of my current bike was £700 more than the rim version.
That's a lot of coffee and cake
Actually I like my rim brakes fine. However I don't care if campagnola still make them or not, I just want to know that someone makes brake pads to fit and someone makes rims and hubs to fit. It is not asking much.
👍
I'll put up with discs offroad where they make a huge difference, but in my flat state rim brakes are more than enough and way easier to maintain for road.
I absolutely love disc brakes but hate installing them. All my bikes are disc, but I'm building a rim brake bike because of the simplicity of it, the ease of working on it at home. The biggest downside with discs is all the extra steps.
Totally, but it has been getting better and better with every new product.
Absolutely, my most used bike is fully intergrated, looks amazing. Had an argument with it though when it came to service the headset and ended up taking it to a mechanic.
My problem with moving to disk brakes is I run a "grandfather's axe" road bike. I replace the transmission with one at the Chorus/Record level when it wears out. I did that last year, moving from 10 to 12 speed mechanical. I get a new frame every 10-15 years. I'm due one in the next year or so - can't afford good carbon so I'm looking at high end aluminium such as a Condor. Wheels are upgraded when finances allow. At no point could I get anything that would touch this for quality if I had to get a complete bike on the same budget. So like the legendary axe which has had the blade and handle replaced at different times over the years, it's never completely new.
Moving to disk brakes needs everything to be changed, and the result would be a less good bike for more money with very slightly better braking.
Thanks for highlighting all the issues with disk brakes I’ll stick with rim brakes.
Fair point Paul.
@@Mapdec To be fair I think you highlighted why so many want to stick with rim brakes, it's a mature technology that works very well. There's no room for the bike industry to make massive improvements to the rim brake so we are being moved onto a new technology (disk brakes) that needs a lot of development, which we are expected to fund by purchasing the new and improved versions. I will no doubt buy into hydraulic disks at some stage but I will wait until I think all the issues are ironed out. I guess it's difficult for the more seasoned cyclist to suck it up and start over again.
With a lot of things you say, You speak out of my heart and I agree fully with You. But not regarding rim brakes. I bought one bike with Sram Force Discs, the bike was intended for foul weather, dirty roads etc. But it does not work! I had two brake cylinders with stuck pistons which could not be refurbished to work again. As Sram does not sell cylnders, I had to buy switch gear with brakes. Very expensive experience.
On the other hand I have DT Swiss Oxic wheels: No rim wear, very less brake pad wear, reasonable weight and super brake performance. Guess what my next bike will have ...
I have three rim brake eleven spd, press fit carbon wonders.
I have never struggled with not enough felt or power from my brakes, and yes, lucky enough to have ridden the alps etc.
Ergonomics of the levers...... sweet. Wheel rims kasting more than 30,000km.
Cable routing, semi internal and easy to maintain, no rattle.
Three different bb30 installations, all as quiet as a mouse. I had more trouble with the previous threaded bbkts on earlier bikes. Now we have the best or worst of both, a threaded adaptor, commonly with a cartridge bag in it. We still have that press fit bearing.
My bikes aren't broke and are easy to work on. No brake noise.
I feel sorry for anyone trying to keep up with evolution, must be expensive.
I reckon it's gonna be a long time before evolution stops, so good luck trying to keep up with that.
Late comment but I'm still doing it!
Disc brake pads last weeks in the Swiss alps. They wear away on the 1200m descents very quickly. Rim brake pads last years. It's dry enough here that I can pretty much ride as much as I want without having to ever unpack my rain jacket so the one advantage of disc brakes is lost on me.
I'm not a pro rider with the time and money to replace the pads every few weeks so it's rim brakes every time.
I'm even selling my disc brake bike and have already replaced it with a rim brake dinosaur.
You'll be telling me you're spending Xmas with David Arthur next. The best brakes I have had on a bike were Hydraulic rims - the feel from those I couldn't get from a disc (especially off-road) without iritating lock-ups. I'm 60 so I'm not looking for balls-out performance - just choice.
Woah there!!!!
@evanjohn503 Hilarious comment …….what an opener. Chapeau 👏
140mm disc Rotors have a place for light Riders, i myself am a
I just upgraded the sloppy Tektro rimbrakes on my trusty Cannondale with Shimano 105 dual pivot brakes. The brake cables on the bike are external, which makes for lower friction. I replaced the cables with smoothly polished jagwire "Pro" cables, for even less friction. Also, the curvy bit of the cables is made out of metal and compressionless, which makes the brakes feel very direct and strong. No squishy brake feeling here.
Braking is very good in all weather conditions, strong and easy to modulate. Can't see how it can get any better than that. A rimbrake setup is cheap, works very well when properly set up and maintained, is reliables, easy to service and best of all, it is LIGHTER. Compare bikes that are sold in both rim- and disck brake version and see that the disc brake version is at least 500-600 grams heavier. That is a lot.
The reason that we went to disc brakes , apart from marketing, is that we started using carbon wheelsets. That makes sense, rim brakes on carbon rims can be problematic. But the lighter weight of the carbon wheels is offset by the higher weight of the disc brakes. You win some, you lose some...
Those jagwire sets are so good. Fine choice.
I have rim ZIPP 404 and pound the shite out of em.
OMG! I had a bike that came with those Tektro brakes. They are absolutely horrible! I bought a pair of Ultegra dual caliper brakes from a dude off Craigslist. Just changing to those were night and day! I couldn't believe they put those on there. They are almost dangerous.
Home maintenance of rim brakes and external cables is just so much simpler. Clinging on to my rim brakes and alloy wheels as.lond as I can source the parts.
To be honest the reason why I think that companies don't come together and make a universal standard is that it might draw some people away from a brand that they are currently using and lose a company money. I also love the rants that you post! We need more people like to to expose the BS in this sport and sort it out.
As someone that really likes things that are functional and clean looking aesthetic I am torn.
All of the things you talked about in the video make sense but the beauty of the “bike world” is choice and opinion. I love learning about new specs and different aspects of different manufacturers. I certainly think that making standards would help bike shops a lot with tools and inventory for sure (having experience working in one).
I still like rim brakes for the ease of working on them and price point. I think that new low level hydro discs are worse than high level rim. I believe to keep the sport entry level in this economy rim brakes have to be apart of the lineup.
Great point. Thanks for sharing
Let’s say it would be possible to agree on a standard. Go back to 1990 and pick the dominant system of then. How would bikes look today?
I’ll tell you: no superior hub systems (because qr is the standard), no disc brakes, no hollow BB’s etc etc etc
I’m not a fan of the nr of variations in headsets, BB and all that, but asking for a standard while demanding progress does not work.
But if I spend a tremendous amount of money on bike today, will it be obsolete in 3 years? Not all of use want to buy an expensive new complete bike every few years just to keep up with technology that many of us don't actually need/want. I don't ride in the rain and don't have excessively long descents near me, so disc brakes are pointless for me, and I don't really miss having Di2 when I jump on my mechanical bike. I love the sport and ride about 20,000kms/yr , but I'm starting to turn to running now simply because the prices are so out of control.
You are right, prices are crazy. I’m the one fan of reduce product count, reduce handing, distribution costs, stop making useless landfill bits
A lot of the modern "upgrades" aren't really. Disc brakes are great for 32mm tires and above, can live without plush Di2 cell phone group sets although I'm sure they're nice, but the best advancement in road bike tech in my book over the last 19 years are Deep dish carbon wheels, a well worth it upgrade I'd recommend to anybody. I ride a 2009 bike with deep carbon rims and it performs just as well and better in some circumstances than my newer rigs, I still enjoy and actively ride both my old and new rigs. There are some great new bikes on the market, no doubt, snag one if you can, but deep dish carbon wheels and nice compact stiff frame geometry are pretty much future proof.
Discs suck for road bikes (and I have a disc brake road bike along with 3 rim break road bikes) one example, I want to service my headset or change the bearings, easy job with rim brakes, with discs its a major undertaking as my hydraulic hoses are routed through the forks and so a simple task has now become something else, same with cutting down my steerer tube if I drop my stem at any point, so enjoyable tasks for home mechanics who enjoy looking after their own bikes now becomes a major bind and/or a trip to the bike shop which in turn costs more money and time off the road. You also highlighted the extortionate price of disc brake pads in a recent video which in the current financial climate is another case of customers getting screwed over and over.
Good point
Rim brakes for me in the summer, maintenance so simple. Disc in the winter, maintenance simple, but long winded and can be noisy. I’ve managed to do internal cabling a couple of times now, but it brings my anxiety out before hand😁
To add to this - yes rim brake for lightweight summer bike, nothing more needed... but then for a proper Northern winter I'd still not go for a disc road bike and instead just go straight to a disc cross bike or gravel bike, as the tyres are then more appropriate for winter roads... there's no point in having really powerful brakes with skinny slicks on cold frosty slippery tarmac, most of the winter is so bad on my local roads that a 29er mtb is the right tool for job!
Luckily, square-taper BBs are still the latest and greatest for nice steel bicycles, when not using components from the big 3. It's just so nice to have one Standard, and you can easily get exact replacement parts for a >30 year old frame.
The only annoyance there is ISO vs. JIS, of course 😭
It's essential to have disc brakes and carbon fibre rims and frames for your 10-mile Sunday bike ride, it increases enjoyment by 11.5%.
It’s funny, but layered with truth. Love it.
big spendeerrrr hahaha idiots
Carbon wheels for your recovery ride
@@Mapdec I think it boils down to budgets and needs. I try to brake as little as possible whilst trying to keep my rides as safe as possible. I'm very apprehensive about being bullied into having to buy new group sets and eventually bikes. I'm sure there are millions of us with 90's and early 2000's bikes that we just don't want to dump because Shimano or Sram have come up with something more efficient and ultimately more expensive. I'm based in Spain, in biggish town and getting deore lx cantilever brake pads is virtually impossible. Some bike shops suggested getting a new bike instead of new brake pads. Ultimately, if you are in your 30's, just get 10 of whatever components you need on ebay while they are still available and bob's your uncle, sorted for the rest of your life.
@@Mapdec Also, I really appreciate you replying to all comments! Good stuff, hope your business flourishes.
I see nothing wrong with rim brakes and alloy rims: functional and durable. Never wanted for braking power on a road bike, including in the wet on steep descents. Nor do the brake tracks wear too quickly. But why do we need three mount standards (nut, hidden bolt & direct mount)?
For racing machines & thus carbon wheels I can easily see the benefit of disc brakes to remove the brake track. And offroad.
I don't think the brifter bodies can get much smaller for hydraulic brakes: there is a certain amount of liquid required in the reservoir to enable the brake blocks to move.
As for mineral oil versus DOT 5.1, I'd like to see mineral oil go completely: no defined standard, with each manufacturer providing their own blends. DOT fluids are standardised and reasdily available due to the auto industry.
For BBs, it's not just shell standards but also axle standards. I'd be quite happy to see DUB & 30mm disappear. In a BSA sized shell, 24mm is far superior. Never had a problem with square tapers, bu have you seen the crazy amount of axle lengths plus the 2 taper standards that created?
Indeed, canary problems. For those of us who've been cycling for over half a century, and still do over a 100kms an outing, for some odd reason, 'super-duper-ultra-whammo-whoopee-do' rings just a little hollow.
To be losing the simplicity of rim brakes is a shame.
Why does a bicycle of all things need to be complicated.
@@orlandogodoy3233 to get more money from customers.
What is so complicated about disc brakes?
@@dogukantosun5547 bleeding them?
@@ozgurinsan It's not that hard once you learn how to do it. On the other hand, the length of the cable brakes changes with every temperature change, after a certain period of time, the length of the cable also gets longer and it is necessary to make adjustments. Once you adjust the disc brakes properly, they will not cause any trouble for a long time.
I agree with you 100% on everything you said. I am 54 years old and so have seen a lot of changes over the past nearly 30 years. Road cyclists can be luddites. I remember well when the cassette started growing from the 5 cog cassettes. I would read magazines and people would write in complaining about it. "Eddie won five on five" was the mantra most regurgitated. For some reason, they thought that a five speed cassette was good enough for Merckx the it should be enough for everyone else. Of course that is ignoring that was what was available when Merckx was racing. If he had a 12 cog cassette available, I'm sure he would have used it. As for standardization, that is one thing I complain about. We used to be able to. mix and match, but that is long gone. I've lost track of the BB standards and the proper cranksets to go with them. I am hoping that a standard, or a couple of them at least, will surface as the "winner" and simplify things
Great comment. That’s for adding to the chat
Wrong comparison. The gearing available on the bicycle does have a direct impact on the basic riding conditions. The type of brake does not.
Powers meters and HTII bb's are good reliable new tech, not convinced fat tyres and disc brakes necessary on a road bike, I have them on my MTB where they make sense.
If everyone got behind it it would definitely happen quicker which is a very good reason for me not to do it.
Don’t worry about that. Regardless of how quick or slow it is, in 5-10 years we won’t see rim brake bikes on anything but the low end marketplace bicycles anyway.
@@slowcyclist4324 We will also see rim brakes on very expensive custom bikes.
@@lovenottheworld5723 oh? So not only are rim brakes less capable, but also only found on more expensive custom bikes now?
Wow. You folks will do anything to prop up rim brakes even if it means eating your own words.
@@slowcyclist4324 A light weight steel fork with a lugged crown has to use a rim brake.
My rim brake road bike works perfectly fine
I have rim brakes they work fine for me
Don’t see why i have to buy a complete new bike if i want to change or upgrade my wheels if only disc compatible are available!!!
I fully agree with the fact that the explosion of "standards" in terms of hubs and BBs is dreadful. The former is a consequence of introducing a mountainbike technology to roadbikes with as little adaptation as possible. Direct mount rim brakes in my experience need less maintenance than a seat post. Disc brakes howerver are straight away the most service intensive component on a road / gravel / cx bike. I can't remember doing two rides in a row on my gravel bike without something annoying me about the state of my discs (Hope RX4 btw). A single bleeding session for those takes longer than all the service my rim brakes see in their entire lifetime. Yes I am sure that discs will be amazing in 10 years, but right now it is an unfinished product. Also, how ironic is it to invest hundreds of €/$/£ to save 2.5 W with ceramic bearings or 1.5 W with an OSPW when you ride arround with discs that are always rubbing after a descent or in the wet?
I’m a cyclist based in SE Asia (Bangkok, Thailand). Having rim rakes & external cables means the technician doesn’t have to be as skilled to work on my bike when skills are lacking here. Plus finding brake pads is so simple compared to all the variations of disc pads on the market today.
The cable routing conversation really is a different topic.
As for BB’s I do prefer threaded but as you mentioned that could scuffle frame development.
I’ve been outta the bike shop business for over 10 years now, if I was to go back I’d definitely need a refresher course.
I'm also living in Thailand and prefer to do my own maintenance all my bikes are rim brakes steel and aluminum frames
I use my bikes mainly in dry anyway so rim has enough stopping power for me. In the dry Ultegra stops on a dime. Plus easier to maintain, less drag (what’s the point in a aero frame from marketing dept saying is 1% less drag then disc adds more than this on in drag) plus you can adjust them in a second, no annoying squealing sounds and the big one disc brake bikes are about 1 kilo heavier then the rim which if you do lots of climbs like me you want the lighter bike.
Fair enough, industry standardization would be welcome!
I bought a LOOK 795 Blade RS. I SPECIFICALLY chose a rim-brake mechanical groupset model. I was fully aware that it was a last-of-the-dinosaurs situation!!
Quill stems are easier to use and look way more elegant than threadless stems. Guess what's the reason for the industry to shift to the new system! They can skip machining the threads on the steerer tube. Just like they now want to avoid making hooks on rims. I'm not paying thousands of pounds for an inferior product. Work for my money! I know I did.
I believe you are mixing a lot of topics into one.
Rim v Disc brake is not about lever size. It might be about that for disc brake afficionados, because they were clunky in the beginning, of course.
But if you want a bigger brake lever body (rim or disc) and call that progress, well, bigger is always easy to manufacture.
We have too many hubs out there, yes. But take away all the rim brake ones, and there are still too many. The shelves are full with stuff, because as long as there is a market niche big enough to turn profit, that's how that works apparently.
My deeper point about rim v disc is - as long as disc brake systems are overall heavier, and they will be because physics, I as a consumer want to have a choice to ride what I prefer.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Great comment. I was thinking about how small and light disc levers might become based on how far that have come so far.
@@Mapdec I get your points, and I do like your technical approach.
But to say us consumers should ditch one system so "the brands" can develop something better is not how the market works, or innovation works. Innovation comes from competition, and while we will have competing systems and products clogging the shelves, I do not see any other way. Unless, Tyranny, of course, that system could totally pave the way 😛
Center lock is the better standart no doubt. But as long as the consumer buys bikes with 6-hole hubs....
As for brake tracks on carbon fibre composite rims, that can totally be a problem, and the braking on an alloy rim is heaps better, always.
As for rim width - as the air above the wheel is already turbulent by the top of the wheel turning into the wind at twice your groundspeed (because the lowest point of the wheel has ground speed of zero, obviously), even the V-brake system could be developped further, or built upon.
I am looking forward to the future, actually. But I really hope that no side ever has the power to say "this is better, everybody do this now" when there are still strong arguments to be made about the other systems ;-P
This got long winded, sorry!
Haven't all major groupset manufactures been only focusing on disc brake groupsets for years. Shimanos new 12 speed dura ace and ultegra rim brake groupsets still come with last gen calipers. The last rim brake caliper shimano designed was 105 r7000 which came out in 2018.
Also you can't ignore that disc brake bikes cost more and are more expensive to maintain. When i got into cycling in 2017 it was a struggle convince my parents to buy me road bike, now it would be impossible with current prices.
While I’m looking forward to new innovations in cycling, I believe for riders like me in majority of South East Asian countries, cost is still a concern and therefore many of us budget cyclist still cling onto old tech offerings in the market. I just spent GBP 300 for a second hand carbon road bike with 105 R5800 rim brake version groupset and to me that’s a significant upgrade from the hand me down aluminum Sora bike I had when I started back cycling during Covid. Using the analogy of golfing : I will start off with budget/second hand golf clubs and upgrade my drivers accordingly while pursuing a better handicap rating as time goes on. Will I be laughed at by the elitist? Most likely, but heck at least I’m out here doing my thing…
Interesting points, here are a few of my own.
1. There's still a place for rim brake bikes, actually as far as road bikes are concerned they are better for the majority of riders because of ease of maintenance, weight, cost, more aero and a few other advantages.
Not everyone lives in or rides in an area where rim brakes are clearly disadvantaged vs disk breaks.
I would venture a guess that for 80%+ of road cyclists world-wide the advantages of disk brakes are relatively moot as they mostly ride in the flat with slight to medium inclines of various gradients in-between and descents that won't wear out the brake tracks of the rims in short order nor will the rim-braked bike put it's rider in hospital because of melted rims or the like. Those who feel that a disk brake equipped bike is necessary because of more extreme terrain and predominantly bad weather conditions will buy one anyone, but there's no need to force it on everyone just because muh progress for muh money.
2. Standards are a good thing usually, the question is who determines what the de-facto standard for a say a bottom bracket should be? Surely there are many different reasons and motivations why so many different systems exist, some have to do with greed of companies, some with common sense, some with a desire to innovate, so it's a mixed bag really. Experience shows that less choice never leads to lower prices, it's more prone to lead to something like Communism rather than to a more pleasant consumer experience.
3. Internal cable routing is not something that should be universally adopted, it's a pain in the behind and should be reserved for dentists and lawyers who don't mind to drop a few grand to have their prestige bike built-up by a hipster bike mechanic and who probably also bring their bike to the shop to have their tires inflated from time to time but for the general cycling public internal cable routing has no practical advantage other than looking cool until something needs fixing or adjusting and then the customers are relegated to waddle back to the bike shop because muh innovation instead of having a chance of doing some of those maintenance tasks relatively easily themselves.
4. The thought that streamlining of the various systems will lead to better prices for consumers is a pipe dream, the bike industry has lost its way, for the most part, demonstrated by the fact that bike prices are at an all time high, that goes for some of those Marketing department driven "innovative" bikes but also holds true for the still way more traditionally configured choices out there.
The truth is, some manufacturers deserve to lose business or even fail, where are the real innovators out there?
It's all about the bottom line, never more than today. As long as people keep buying crap these companies will feel encouraged to push out more crap because muh aero gains, muh integration, muh money please.
Just my 2 cents, please take it with a grain of salt.
Ummm. There is some pretty offence stuff in here dude.
@@Mapdec As long as it's not offensive.
Be real: the motivation behind road-disk is liberation of the rim. Everyone wants deep, carbon rims primarily for aesthetic reasons, which is difficult (but not impossible) with rim-brake. The silver alloy braking track on a rim-brake wheel is the real enemy. The overall braking performance is certainly no better versus a quality rim-brake, with the disk-system being louder, heavier, less user-friendly and more problematic. Form > function alert ☝🏼
Lots of truth there. Defo the deep carbon rim as the big investment item that is destroyed quite quickly by rim brakes.
@@Mapdec In my experience.. I never wear the pads before the rim. I ride long hills and I use swisstop pads and rims with grooved brake track and breaking eats the pads but rims are nearly unaffected so far. After few thousand km track looks the same, grooves are nearly as deep as they were and I changed lots of pads.
I know that some cheper pads eat the rim a lot, but I stick to swisstop and I did not have any issues
@@Rafskat So do I ! 🤙
Let’s see you try and jam your brakes and come to a stop behind a car that pulls up in front of you to try and make a left turn.
I’d bet that on a rim brake you’d have skidded your face into the rear trunk window of the car, while on a disc brake you will likely be shaken, but completely fine with your front wheel inches from kissing the rear bumper.
Disc brakes and rim have never been about being able to “stop adequately”, it’s about how well you can stop in inadequate situations. Why do you think we use disc brakes in off road rides? We don’t have the luxury of time to gently come to a stop; it’s all about your ability to viciously shed speed while remaining in control, something which rim brakes fail completely at.
@@slowcyclist4324 wouldnt it comes down to individuals bike handling skills. The veteran bikers out there have control at either really slow and really fast speeds. The issue with average punters they think they are grand tour riders right 😂
It’s not for me very happy on rim brakes, tubed 25mm tyres and Shimano cable shifters. When there’s a comfortable fast accelerating disc bike on 25mm tyres I’ll make the swap. I just find all the bikes on +28mm tyres dull to ride.
Sorry I like my rim brakes and the cost of changing to disc brakes is sky high l use alloy rims and yet to wear out a rim carbon rims not a fan 25 mm tyres have served me for years tubular tyres and still great old fashion sorry
I have a steel frame, alloy rims, rim brakes, square taper BSA bottom bracket. Not cheap, but it’s 22 years old and going strong. I ride about 10k km per annum. The rims last for ever and when they do give up the ghost they are recyclable. Ditto the frame (though that’s got a few decades left in it). Meanwhile the braking performance on the road is absolutely fine. I understand that Mark Cavendish needs a stiffer BB, but why the grief for the rest of us? We seemed to have ended up in the situation where if you buy a cheap bike it’s rubbish, and expensive bikes require all kinds of bespoke this and that to fix. The interests of the bike and group set manufacturers is not the interest of the majority of consumers.
All your points are very well put and make sense for big manufacturers and carbon frames. Must not forget the smaller custom frame and custom component manufacturers though.
Yes. You are right.
Do you or a loved one suffer from hearing loss due to squealing disc brakes?
You may be entitled for compensation!
😂😂😂
imo there is just no need to disc brakes on road bikes for 90% of riders on road bikes...
while I get discs are better in wet conditions how many people open the curtains see its hammering it down and go out on the roads 🤦♂️ I no most clubs put on zwift rides now in winter so it says it all.
I just use cabon wheels in the summer, spring and most of autumn...
in winter if I do go out I'll use alloy training wheels
Why are we suddenly going wider that's the question???? it's because disc bikes ride harsher I've got 2 TCRs in 2019 1 disc and 1 rim it's like riding 2 totally different bikes imo.
Discs imo have been part of the reason for huge price increases.... I'm not a fan of disc on road, MTB yes but its just over kill imo on road bikes when rim brakes work perfectly well, cheaper, lighter and far easier to maintain....
U don't need hydro brakes to stop a 25 / 28mm tyre.... if your road bike is running tyres like 34mm 🤦♂️😂 is it even a road bike 🤷♂️
Don't get me started on BBs press fit was never the issue the bikes not made to spec was 😂 we where sold years of PF is the way forward.... and now back to thread its a STEP BACK if they made a hole to torranace no issue with a PF system...
On this one I think you're well off lol love your videos but #savetherimbrake just give people the option of both simple...
I kind of like that it's a minefield in certain aspects. It has made me think about how I adapt my bikes and get the most out of them. I like the hunt for the solution. I have a 1980's Reynolds tube frame that now runs 11 speed gears, modern stem, compact bars and even has a headset with cartridge bearings. The whole bike has been an evolution over the years and I love that bike.
I also have a tarmac sl6 expert that I have recently converted to bsa bb and put a power meter on. The bikes fit my needs because I have made them that way and wouldn't change them for the world
That’s awesome Iain
One of the great things about rim brakes is that apart from short and long drip, pretty much every calliper fits pretty much every bike. I can (and have) swapped callipers around between 40 year old bikes and brand new bikes. That’s what you can call a standard.
Except for shot and long drop, single and duel pivot, front and rear specific… oh and Caliper, V brakes, cantilever. Yeah. Otherwise rim brakes totally standard. 🤷♂️
@@Mapdec I said calliper, acknowledged short and long. Single and dual pivot both fit the same hole. Front and back yes, but you buy them in pairs like shoes. V brakes and cantis are normally interchangeable. But which ever way you want to describe it, nothing has changed for years.
Whatever you say, I’m sticking with rim brakes until there are no replacements left.
I just replaced my gravel bike brake discs after riding as commuter for 3 years. It only cost me $15 USD. If I had do replace rim wheels, the cheapest would be at least $150 USD for both wheels. I have a rim brake road bike and I only ride for weekends.
an con with internal brake routing is you have to disconnect the brake, so this means no fast hot swapping of brakes. My Geometron G1 allows that, so I can do back to back testing of brakes If I wanted to.
But I love the simplicity, so easyto work on. but the dropper post is internally routed but it's done well, so it goes into the seat tube, no problem, no bending of the hose or using the expensive park tool internal routing tool. I have it, but don't need it for myself, but if a friend brings a problematic bike I can sort it out.
I'm a retrogrouch and the thought of a new bike is depressing. Press fit BB (vs BB86), disk vs rim (I'm fine with Alu rims and rim brakes), cable routing (can I just change the cables easily please?), Tubeless? ...Could GAF. More batteries, oh dear lord. Maybe if I had a bike shop like yours in my area I'd feel differently. But finding competent service with the right tools is just a chore more and more with all the different standards and precision needed to make sure things are aligned properly. But I have to say I've greatly enjoyed all the videos you've been making lately and while I might not agree with this particular video I think what you've been putting out is great.
Thanks Mike. It’s ok to disagree, we learn more
I love my rim brakes. A tech that is old, yes, but very mature, about 100 years mature. Maybe in the future I will get a Diskbrake bike, when the tech goes reliable, cheaper, and many iterations solve the hassle that is having them. China is making their own take on hydraulic diskbrake that don't suck and is not expensive. It's not there yet, but making enough noise to keep me interested.
Rim brakes are lighter and more aerodynamic. For race bikes why would you want something slower?
Purely for the rim choice.
@@Mapdec I’m not sure that’s a good reason to make your race bike slower.
I am actively seeking out rim-brakes and friction shifters for ease of maintenance. I don't wanna deal with hydro fluid, kinked cables, or electronic shifting. esp. the latter. I think in one of your previous vids a commenter counted the parts on a bike one has to get charged to go on a ride and it was (at least) a total of 11 (!!). My 80ties. Randonneuring bike with friction downtube shifting and rim brakes needs nothing charged to be able to ride it. That's how cycling should be, not an elitist flex, showing off the newest wirelss (OMG!) shifting, but more inclusive to all who want to join with their mechanical shifting and rim brakes.
Before rim brakes need to be done, cycling as a whole needs to improve :)
I know. That was mental. I am not ready to fully embrace electronics yet, but I do think hydraulic brakes have become dependable enough.
Elitist Flex....Well said....I am stealing that Sir. WTF is going on with cyclists and all this "gear and kit"?. Just ride, break a sweat and have some fun.
Your 80s bike with whatever shifting certainly needs something; a modern and adaptable cyclist.
You should check your calendar; have you noticed that it’s 2022?
@@anthonylarson7919 because that’s part of the fun in cycling? Some cycle so you can enjoy their bike, and some ride their bike so they can enjoy their cycling? What’s won’t with that?
If anything; it’s you folks gatekeeping cycling with your idea of “oh cycling is not about the gear, it’s about just cycling and pushing yourself” who are the real elitist problem plaguing this hobby.
@@slowcyclist4324 2016 Skylon...I ride the hell out of it. All types of weather, no problems....although it will probably explode on my ride today now that I've stated this..haha
I feel like many of these points are valid, very much so for new tech, but we should definitely consider that much of the older established tech has formed into de facto standards. English threaded BB, square taper, v-brake or caliper, cable brakes/shifters, 1-1/8" threadless or quill, etc. There are more but those kinds of standards. I don't see anything wrong with builders choosing to use these kinds of old standards for components on current production bikes. The new bikes benefit from an already existing pool of inexpensive replacement parts, and the older bikes benefit from securing long term availability of their replacement parts, keeping them in service longer
Great video! Standardization helped every industry it touched. I feel in some respects we're getting there slowly. The BB situation is additionally complicated by tons of different axle standards so the number of stuff you need to keep in stock gets ridiculous.
BSA is fine with steel axles like GXP or Shimano standard, but for aluminium axles which are wider the bearings are these tiny things. I wish we'd settle on T47 and PF30 but BSA will probably live forever on sheer inertia. That'd still be 12 bottom brackets if you look at just SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo axles plus legacy GXP (which is dying but bikes with it will still be around for years and years to come).
I agree abut rim brakes. My main issue is the rain and how I can’t stop with wet rims. I do not ride in the rain on purpose, but at times it happen, and I simply cannot be confident of stopping well. My next bike with have hydraulic disc.
The reticence is coming as much from the fact that the shift to discs requires the purchase of the whole bike, a big money making/ profit enhancing trick that brands learnt from MTB in the last decade - so it cuts out the rider on a limited budget who was able to source carefully selected older gen components to make a competitive build. Progress is fine but pulling up the stepladder of participation is not and will ultimately damage the industry in our current economic dystopia which is disproportionately affecting the youngsters who will form the industry's future customer base- we're in the region where 4/5/6k just gets a relatively stodgy mid range build with 11spd, the progress of the new group sets may be great but the pricing is for dentists/ bankers. And yeah BB30/PF30 is the spawn of the devil himself, possibly the industry's worst invention, lots of otherwise perfectly good bikes ruined or short-lived by sloppy implementation ... and they know it.
They sure do… press fit really needs to die long before the rim brake does
6-bolt rotors do have one advantage though -- they allow for a larger bearing on the non-drive side. Center-lock will only allow up to 28mm bearing, which forces hubs with 17-mm axles into the hard-to-find 17x28 bearings (instead of the widely available and standard 17x30).
Someone just sold its soul to BS Manufacturers and Marketing.
Lol. Maybe, but I just want to see disc get better more than I want rims to stick arround.
@@Mapdec Hey I also want to no longer use CONDOMS but you know if I dont then I get sick down there..... Good things manufactures offer different sizes, colors and flavors! Maybe they should offer one size fits all....
@@thedronescene7474 amazing analogy.
@@Mapdec to be fair you’ve dropped alot in my estimations
@@cpt.slackbladder3187 that’s cool. I’m just chatting. Get stuck in.
Internal cables are great, but, as a amateur cyclist I believe that fully internal going by the steam and head tube is a bit too much. It's too complicated and the aerodynamic looses for an amateur are minor. As we've seen in Tarmac SL7, it may cause more issues than advantage. I own 2022 Canyon Ultimate CFR eTap, and it's not an issue for me, that I have those two cables not fully internally routed like in the 2023 model. But I agree to the rest totally!
Rims brakes are like a classic car. Why would you want to get rid of them just because we have Teslas. 🤷🏻♂️
Hub motor braking (way heavier though 🤔), has worked smoothly and flawlessly on my electronic longboard (Boosted Board, out of business) for 5 years now using a rechargeable Bluetooth remote. Get the electronics right and reliability is possible.
As much as I would also like to see the move to mineral oil, the problem is that the mineral oils are have no regulation or standards. If you use Morgan Blue instead of Shimano, you void the warranty with Madison on any Shimano items. At one point it was near impossible to get Shimano oil, so the only choice our shop had was to use Morgan Blue. Whereas with Dot5.1 it has all been regulated to a highway standard, and the oil you get from Fenwick's is the same as what you get from Halfords.
I am hydraulically agnostic. On a road bike I would take decent mechanical discs over rim or hydraulic disc any day. Shimano RS305s, BB7s, growtac equals, etc can all be set up more powerful with a smoother lever feel than road hydros. Use compressionless housing, metallic pads, and a trained hand. No bleeding, easy adjustment, much more reliable/repairable long term. As far as shifting I’m still on 2x10 speed. I just couldn’t care less as long as I have the ratios I need and the jumps between them aren’t too big. 9 speed would probably even be enough for me. As a mechanic I see much more terminal problems with electronic/hydraulic components than mechanical. I’m fine with that trade off on a mtb where your brakes and shifting components can be replaced separately, but on road that’s just too much planned obsolescence built in to the group for too little performance gain. At the end of the day this increased complexity and lack of adjustability is probably bad for the sport. Customers typically can’t keep up with the inflated maintenance costs of these bikes, so a lot of the time they just end up riding worse. Also integrated cockpits have more riders than ever on bikes that just don’t fit them correctly and they can’t swing the costs to adjust.
Have you seen the Paul components cable operated disc calipers? I think those can easily compete with a lot of hydro versions.
This makes a great deal of sense from a forward thinking perspective. There are countless bikes from the past 40 years that are still very serviceable. There will always be a place for these older standards. I hope quality parts are available to keep these bike rideable and enjoyable.
Narrowing specs to be more universal for all make bike service more convenient that's for sure. However it makes a innovation in that particular area way more difficult.
well made points.
another problem is over-engineering simple things like aero seatposts, disc brakes for most applications, aero handlebars.
The industry will never listen to the people. No wonder its in shambles.
I have come around to your side on this as well. It's time to move forward.
Have'nt you had enough of clients crying about their disc brakes squealing, touching and not working properly? And seeing as you sold them the bike this service of putting them right everytime, in their eyes should FOC (free of charge). Because I have. I keep saying I'm done with teaching donkeys to fly! You cannot beat the praticallity of a quick release and the simplicty of putting a front or rear wheel in the frame, over the same thing with disc brakes. Caliper pistons need constant cleaning before the pad residual material bakes itself to the exposed edge of the pistons, thus avoiding it's full retraction, hence why pads keep rubbing! Yes the power of hydraulic oil and the lesser amount of force needed to pull the lever wins over a corroded hard to pull rusty brake cable. But is everyone happier with the raised level of maintainance I ask? And once you've baked them pads whether they're new or not, you're gonna have to change them. The same for a disc which has risen above 200°C on a long descent, once it's cooked and turned brownish/purple colour it's Knackered and will just squeal! I'll hang on to my BR9000 calipers and traditional Fulcrum wheels for now, and when I can't brake anylonger maybe one day I'll convert myself over to the darkside of cycling! Cheers Rant over. 🙂
Good Rant. Well, we don’t sell bikes. Don’t want to. We do fix a lot of poor builds from direct brands and bike shops being too quick on the PDI checks and sending stuff out misaligned, or brake mounts covered in paint. We have worked on disc for so long now it is no hassle, just what we do. Customers for the most part want them.
@@Mapdec yes I find that 9 out of 10 want Disc Di2 Axs and Tubeless.....I guess I am just old school and want a simple days work in the workshop, but with thw majority of our clients here in Milan, they're mostly wingers that continue on about having paid 10grand for a bike, that there should be no defects or problems whatsoever. Well we all know that simply is'nt the way it is.
Really? There is virtually no more performance road bikes offered or developed with rim brakes and if I still like them I also need to feel responsible for the slow development of disc brake bikes? It's a lose lose situation! I apologise to everyone for owning 2 rim brake bikes. Oh, and a frame as well. That's 3. I'm sooo sorry 😂😂😂
Me too, i live on an environment where there's many hills, potholes, trafic, and as a commuter i also ride thru rains..
rim brake is nice looking and doesn't squeal, i really really hope i can still use rim brakes but it's expensive also can be dangerous for me to keep it that way.
every time i use rim brake bad things happens especially when it's rainy season, I remember how hard i squeeze the levers but the bike keep on rolling while on front of me is a car also slowly going down d hill, both brake pads and rims got beaten fast, sometimes they even catch a pebbles, gunk everywhere, etc., fortunately i also have experience as a bikemech so i can manage to change my own rim but eh it's more sad compared to just replace a rotors, i can't even consider a nicer pair of rims because im afraid it'll gone fast.
Also i want more bikes coming with easy maintenance in mind, but more importantly a better QC pass tolerance, i do my own bikes so i want it both fast on home and down the road without a drama.
P.S
Not so Fun fact: 1 out of 9 bikes i ever own doesnt have some lv of misalignments that i could spot.
You have 8 bikes with alignment issues?
@@Mapdec yes sir, pardon it's 7 as far as i remember, it's ten years of journey lol
1 is an alloy sport xc bike which has a rear dropout misalign, the rear wheel tilted slightly to one side i had to file it to straighten it.
2 is a chromoly cx with crowned fork but one blade is a bit more to the front, so when i straighten the handlebars the result when following dropout are not the same when following the crown, i bring to the shop but no good thing happen since.
3 is flat bar alloy urban/sport, first i got one that has misaligned bottle bosses, so when i put a bottle cage and bidon i seen it lean to one side, fortunately i told the guy at shop and they replaced the bike.
4 is a chromoly road bike with carbon-alu blade, both front and rear dropout has a slight misalign
5 is steel folding bike, the joint of midtube to head tube are not centered.
6 is alloy xc and by far the worst, FD direct mount type but it's bit rotated to the front, rear dropout misaligned, and seattube tilt to right, downtntube joints not centered
7 is steel 26in ATB with misaligned rear dropout.
Some of them are from quite famous and big brand.
Also found my friends' and clients' bike has some lv of issue too, like misaligned fork, tilted saddle out of the box, tilted disc brake mount, rear dropout, etc.
Just makes me wonder WTH is happening, what did they do wrong and how can they fix it so everyone can receives a perfectly aligned bike, lol.
I guess the problem with: let's get behind disc brakes is that many people feel that it was prematurely and artificially pushed by industry. I think if the industry are going to force a change on their customers then it's their responsibility to get it right. We still see stories of the pros subtlely or not so subtlely preferring rim to disc at the highest level of competition, one example being froomey. The pros have access to the best, most quality controlled stuff and the best mechanics, so if they're still having issues and preferring rim, it makes sense that the average Joe is too.
Oh. Great comment. So true.
I think a lot of the issues with disc brakes are the manufacturers have not figured them out yet, and the LBS mechanics have no idea as well. No way in Hell I would let some hung over LBS mechanic work on my discs if I had em...
@@anthonylarson7919 It's not just LBS mechanics, froomeys mechanic is not an LBS mechanic, he's a pro.
@@kangzosa I hear ya. For such a simple machine there are a lot of bike issues. Simple cables, hoses, wires, levers and bearings. Does this industry just attract poor craftsmen?.
@@anthonylarson7919 I blame the engineers/designers of these products much more than I do bike mechanics. I think the important part about having the trifecta of Shimano Sram Campy isn't about having competition around the basic price of a groupset, but having competition that drives superior design. Unfortunately they all seem to want to compete on who can have the most cogs on a cassette at the back.
I get that we want healthy competition but I do wish Shimano made carbon frame bikes. Even with lackluster shimano design for certain things, their manufacturing quality and consistency of output is second to none, I'm pretty sure they'd figure out how to consistently make holes round on the bottom brackets of bikes, at the very least.
The big question is how to get all brands on the same page. I remember bmx brands sticking their heads together in around 2006 to come up with a universal bb standard (mid bb) that ended the mess which was usa/spanish/euro bb…
As a guy that does all of his own maintenance plus most of his friends, I'm no fan of carbon frames, disk brakes, electronic shifting and don't even mention internal cable routing especially through the bars and stem. It is all about
what about proprietary parts on bikes ? will we able to find them in 5 years?
5 years, Probably, 10, highly unlikely
@@Mapdec so will we throw away a bike because we wont be able to find a part? its more important then rim brakes all these proprietary parts.
@@ozgurinsan good solution offered in yesterdays vid. Interesting chat.
Would you consider a video dispelling some of the disc maintenance myths and perhaps demonstrating some practical advice for those doing their own maintenance? One thing I keep reading about is over filling systems so I would be interested to know how to avoid that trap.
I think that would be an excellent idea.
This entire rant should not be directed at the customer…
It’s the industry that has a problem here - I’m not switching from my 130 rim brake bikes until I can buy a new bike which has the ability to switch groupset manufacturers - there are no “standard” standards any more.
It’s like software going to subscription - it’s all just to get more sales…
I was a shop mechanic spanning 1” headtubes going to 1 1/8 going to the whole tapered mess we’ve got now.
Let’s face it there has always been bsa va Italian threading…
Just found your channel and very much enjoying your insights on various topics! I have a stable of three bikes. One is a cromoly frame bike that I've had for about 15 years, with rim brakes. One is an aluminum frame bike with disc brakes (about 5 years old) and another is a carbon frame with disc brakes (about 3 years old). During the past couple of years, I've had the pleasure of experiencing spoke blowouts on three different occasions -- all on the disc brake bikes (actually just one spoke breaking, each time). Not remarkable for most people, I guess. But for me, I had never had a spoke break even one time on my rim-brake bike, so I was quite surprised when it happened on my disc brake bikes. I know there are probably a number of variables at play. But do you have any insight on whether the brake type itself has an impact on the wear and tear on spokes? (I'm still putting a lot of miles on my rim brake bike and still no spoke breakage.)
Welcome. We have vids on this. Are you disc wheels Carbon?
@@Mapdec Thanks! I'll look forward to seeing them. Both of the disc wheelsets are alloy wheelsets.
A lot of stuff is proprietary. For every center lock disk you must pay royalty to shimano. Making its double or triple the price. Same with dot fluid and many other things.
This sir, needs to get heard world wide in the bike manufacturing industry. Well done. Solid and valid suggestions. Let's hope it eventually materialises.
Who, manufacturer-wise, isn't all behind disc brakes? Very few, if any major companies offer a rim brake performance frame anymore. What groupset/component company has put one iota of R&D into rim brakes in the last ten years? I'm all for disc brake development, the difference between this Shimano 105/Ultegra/Dura-Ace is worlds better than the last iteration, but I still don't want the added expense/weight/maintenance of disc brakes. Stock in those rim brake parts is how some of us who've bought our "forever bikes" keep them running. And I'm perfectly fine not finding this stuff at LBSs, but I still want them to be able to work on them. NOS is great, but that stuff won't last forever. Love the channel! Glad I found it. Keep it up!
Thanks Dan. True about the RnD. Rim brakes are sort of dead already, feels like we are just prolonging it.
Certainly agree re disc brakes. The last time I bought a rim brake bike for myself was last century. Don't agree with you on Bottom brackets but I suspect you are right anyway. Both my bikes (Giant Revolt and Norco Revolver) have press fit bottom brackets, and I've had no issues with them. However manufacturers do seem to be phasing out press fit in favour of threaded bottom brackets.