I am big fan of long, in depth, well structured podcasts like yours or Rich Roll’s or Dr. Peter Attias’s ones. Thank you for all the time and effort you put int these and sharing your knowledge so generously.
this was brilliant, thank you. I love the emphasis on fiber at the very end. I made a concerted effort to increase my fiber intake and decreased animal products. I eventually gave them up completely, and now I am getting 70-80 g/day of fiber. It was actually pretty easy to do - you’ve got to quit non-fiber containing meat and junk food in order to make room for all those plants. It would solve a lot of problems if people were to fixate on fiber half as much as they do on protein.
As a woman who loves to cook I will make it simple. Nothing sticks together in a batter until you add the fats and the sugar. It’s similar in the human body as well. My grandma would say that you had to match how much and what you eat with your activity level. In the 1950’s and 1960’s for instance children ran and played outside more than today’s children. Very few people were overweight back then. We came back inside in the summer when it started to get dark. We took a bath and went to bed tired then. There were no computers, cellphones, cable tv, etc to tempt someone to stay indoors. At night you braved the mosquitoes to look at the stars. By the 1970’s soda and junk food exploded in everyone’s diet choices. Very few people want to walk, ride the bus or ride a bike anymore. We drive everywhere even to make short trips. In 2023 you are lucky for an unclouded view to even see stars.
Sugar is STICKY! Fat is slippery! We need animal fat! Cholesterol is not the enemy! Red meat is completely absorbed by the body. Fatty red meat is the most nutrient dense food on the planet! Plants and vegetables are filled with oxalates, lectins, phytates, tannins, phthalates, and other carcinogens that can cause cancer and other metabolic diseases.
Simon, have you been tracking the discussion around the “lean mass hyper responder” phenomenon? It’s interesting to see how that may potentially alter our understanding of the association between cholesterol levels and CVD, putting what we know now into a larger context.
Many thanks to you and your host for this Simon. I really appreciate your time and effiorts in putting forth such interesting, informative, educational, and myth busting videos.
Can't wait for my commute home from work to listen to this....I work in a cardiac operating room, so very relevant 👌👏 You rock Simon, best interviewer ever! You always cover all the questions I have in my head! Cheers from 🇨🇦
I just love the cool, casual nerdiness of these (I say that with admiration btw) - the intros are like “hi, grab a hot beverage and take a seat, we’re gonna talk science and public health!” 🙏🏾☕️ Anyway perfect timing to revisit this one, given the last episode. Keep ‘em coming, man!
My mother, born in 1923, in Lyon, France, told me that prior to WWll, the only culinary oil she ever encountered was cold pressed walnut oil. I have wondered if that may have been part of the answer to the French Paradox. Cheese was common but was aged quite a bit so it was shelf stable (no frig) and was more often goat cheese. Fois Gras was really a farmer or rich person, ok, well off person treat. It was not mass produced so the amount of saturated fat in the diet from liver paste was low. Meat was usually rabbit, which are fairly lean even when fattened for butchering. Bread was the staple and it was not much different than today’s well made French bread made with yeast and refined wheat flour (white flour stores really well). Bear in mind that era was post WWl and Europe was recovering. Food was hard to get.
Amazing interview. I saw another youtube channel interviewed this guy covering similar topics but the audio was of really poor quality. I was hoping a better version would be widely available and that's what we have here! I was in the LDL denial crowd way back in 2010 but slowly started to see how dangerous they were over the years. (mainly due to a guy on youtube named plant positive whos video's went way too underappreciated.) It's really hard to overstate just how freaking dangerous this whole movement is. I'm glad I didn't push stuff on friends and family back when I thought high LDL was fine. Ultimately the fundamentalist butter believers are unlikely to change their mind ever after they end up the ER with an MI, but it's good to have this stuff available for people willing to actually look at the truth.
Such a great episode, Simon!! I had to come back after reading more of Keys' work. I'm amazed how far they got back in the 50's and 60's! It's like we've been talking so much about stuff already known for a while. Anyway, I'd love to hear you talk a bit about how do you guys see the guidelines talking about restricting saturated fatty acids but not mentioning that not all SFA are created equal. In one extreme side, butyric acid is a short chain SFA with benefits already known when produced by our microbiota. On the other side, one of Keys' paper back in the day "Serum Cholesterol Response to Changes in the Diet. IV. Particular Saturated Fatty Acids in the Diet" already had proved that stearic acid should not be taken into account, and it is significantly present in butter. For instance, if we take off the consideration the SFA shorter than 12 C and stearic acid from butter the SFA content drops about 50%, which is very considerable. When comparing it to other fats used for cooking, for instance, shouldn't we consider that instead of simply comparing SFA content from labels?
Excited to listen to this. Not sure if this is covered, but one question I have is regarding the coronary calcium scan. Many carnivores including Saladino have very high LDL but claim it's okay because his coronary calcium score is 0. Does this mean that his high LDL still poses a long term risk even if he currently doesn't have any atherogenic plaque? What are your thoughts on the coronary calcium scan?
calcium score doesn't measure soft plaque only calcified plaque. Someone saladino's age is expected to have a zero score no matter what they do or eat. People with zero calcified plaque still commonly have clogged arteries and heart attacks.
Start listening at about 53:00 in the December 2018 Q&A. - Say you have a calcium score of 100, start following Esselstyn 100%, then have calcium score redone after a year. It could very well go up to 175. Reason is the calcium score tells you 2 things a) you have calcified plaque and b) you have non-calcified plaque which is inflamed and is the dangerous kind which can rupture, causing a heart attack. So a positive calcium scan indicates a higher risk for future cardiac events because you’ll also have the non-calcified plaque. Now if you change your diet, that inflamed plaque will lose inflammation and become calcified. So, your calcium score may be higher BUT you have decreased your risk of a heart attack. The calcified plaques are stable. The inflamed non-calcified plaques are unstable and can rupture in the turbulent blood flow. The video Q&A also talks about Lp(a), taking leafy greens on Coumadin, Omega 3s. Here is the video th-cam.com/video/ZC3wRx4vV7g/w-d-xo.html
I really appreciate these podcasts, I try a lot of what I learn here! I went from a junk food eater to a whole food plant based and I felt so lost and alone, but I found this podcast, Rich Roll, Huberman Lab and I can’t thank you enough for keeping me in a mind set of learning something new everyday!
Japanese scientists wrote 2015 article title: Statins stimulate atherosclerosis and heart failure. "In contrast to the current belief that cholesterol reduction with statins decreases atherosclerosis, we present a perspective that statins may be causative in coronary artery calcification and can function as mitochondrial toxins that impair muscle function in the heart and blood vessels through the depletion of coenzyme Q10 and 'heme A', and thereby ATP generation. Statins inhibit the synthesis of vitamin K2, the cofactor for matrix Gla-protein activation, which in turn protects arteries from calcification. Statins inhibit the biosynthesis of selenium containing proteins, one of which is glutathione peroxidase serving to suppress peroxidative stress."
Taubes reminds me of that story about Billy Graham when he and his Canadian counterpart had a loss of faith: "What are we going to do now? It's too late to become dairy farmers."
I love this episode! Its always a cosy atmosphere and i try to learn english with your podcasts (=.I would be very interested in the impact of nutrition on epigenetics.
Your response to those who question the independent causality of LDL levels is, "They're just wrong". I don't think so, at least not in all cases, so I ask "In what way or ways are they wrong?" You say there is "overwhelming data". I ask sincerely what other than correlation do you provide? (And as my cardiologist told me regarding adverse effects, "Correlation is not causation."( And then, though he'd known me for more than 20 years, he conjectured for the first time at my 2011 age of seventy that I might have FH. Yes, many male family members died of heart disease (my father died at age 87, for example) but you and I know that FH manifests with high cholesterol levels early in life, so even mentioning FH in my case was nonsense. Before I gave in to the constant push, always fear-focused, to take a statin, I asked my doctors this question: Reputable institutions said that lipid ratios were perhaps better indicators of risk than simple LDL levels. And ALL my lipid ratios were fantastic: TG/HDL was 61/88. I'd also read that this ratio correlated with greater proportion of benign, large fluffy low density types of LDL and smaller proportion dense BB-like LDL. The cardiologist immediately told me that the science wasn't there yet. But, but that's a conflict in the science! One thing tells me I'm fine, the other tells me I'm at high risk. Both come from top sources. Response: take the statin, delivered with great condescension. You may know of Dr. John Reckless's famous comment about statins in the water supply. (If you are open, I could find my 2011 sources again...but it's probably more important for you. My health crashed fast and permanently subsequent to the statin. You can see photos on StatinStories.com of my legs (the same legs that about a year before were trekking in the Himalayan foothills for several weeks of 6-8 hour days, no problems). You acknowledge that the food industry is nightmare to our health, but many of us would instead describe the Big Pharma/Big Food complex. One of my doctors asked me if I knew what percentage of a doctor's education is paid for by Big Pharma.... As you've said to your viewers, if you're open-minded, debate is meaningful. With no push from Big Pharma (rather the opposite) many health care professionals dispute the old Food Pyramid and the unexplained need for a vast proportion of us to be on statin treatment. One of the main reasons I at least listen to them is that although they sometimes claim that in certain contexts, extremely high LDL levels do not cause the problems that we've been conditioned to fear so much--BUT they show concern about these levels, they explain why they exist, and they ask for other scientist to challenge them. They acknowledge that they are always concerned about being wrong and invite scientific challenge. THANK YOU!
I have listened to many of your podcasts and I also listen to Plant Chompers, Gil Carvalho and Layne Norton. But this dialogue was really enlightening. It covers all the aspects of this low carb vs science community beef situation. Reminds me the documentary Merchants of Doubt and they ways of defending their agenda that tobacco and later oil industry adopted.
If so few people suffered from cardiovascular disease a hundred or more years ago, and saturated fats were consumed regularly, then why when a sudden and considerable increase in heart disease took place some fifty years ago it was saturated fats that were to blame? That makes absolutely zero sense. And furthermore with all of these supposedly heart healthy low fat diets and nutritional guidelines as well as cholesterol lowering medications, we are still seeing increasing numbers of heart related diseases and deaths. That also makes no sense. People will debate what is to be believed until the end of time. Personally I think saturated fats are not the culprit, we are designed to and have been consuming them for eons, so let’s look elsewhere for answers, perhaps sugar and highly processed foods ie: polyunsaturated fats would be a good start. It is the increase in these types of foods that mirror the increase in chronic health issues, and the new science makes it more clear that statin medications are of such minuscule benefit ( if any at all because statins or no statins people have heart attacks and die anyway , I have known a few personally ) and many users experience problematic symptoms that take away from their enjoyment of life which will also affect their longevity. So what does make sense is that the pushing of these drugs is for financial gain. Countless people depend on the manufacture and sale of them for their livelihood. My advice for what it’s worth is closely research as much information as you can and there’s plenty of it, and make your own determination based on the collective data what feels right to you and offers you the most peace of mind. Then as the old saying goes, Live and Let Live. Good luck and stay well ❤
because they ate saturated fat they were healthy. Sugar and carbs are raising body fat, thus now more heart disease and diabetes. 35 percent of Americans are obese.
This is what I've deduced, please tell me if I'm wrong: 1. Someone with atherosclerosis will always have high LDL. (Because LDL is increased to deliver cholesterol to repair the endothelium) 2. Someone who eats saturated fat will have temporarily high LDL. (Because LDL transports fats around the body, raising LDL for a period) 3. Therefore a high LDL doesnt always mean atherosclerosis. 4. But a low LDL means lack of atherosclerosis. It seems that LDL is simply trying to fix the problem, not cause it. Could atherosclerosis be caused by some other mechanism such as inflammation?.
1. not always 2. Not always 3. High LDL _may_ be more likely to develop athersclorosis but it is not any one of the underlying causes, hence the lack of association in practice 4. Again, maybe less likely because it limits the disease process after it has already started. 5. Yes, obviously, cholesterol helps cells repair themselves, damaged cells through mechanisms like oxidation and glycation is the main thing that starts off the process (obviously). Or it would happen in everyone.
Two extremely well-spoken gents, giving a clear description of the current body of evidence and the history to which that stems, thanks, Simon and Alan.
I listened to an interesting podcast by Dr Nadir Ali , a cardiologist. 'Do statins prevent heart disease' interesting to listen to this type of talk on this channel vs the talk by Dr Nadir. It certainly keeps me more open-minded to all views.
cholesterol denialists vs cholesterol alarmists... it's best to get as many perspectives as possible and reach your own conclusions. i respect Ali. not so much of this dogmatic Keys Apologist who insults everyone who disagrees with him & says that he would not waste his time trying to have a conversation with someone who says "LDL Cholesterol is not causal to CVD" and he would just say that they're wrong. and laugh. so "Case Closed." it's settled. no need for investigation or opposing views. p.s. "Statins are wonderful. Low-carbers are Conspiracy Theorist quacks."
@@chuckleezodiac24 fix your diet and lose weight and no need for statins or stents for most people. I was overweight myself for a while, but thankfully my core WFPB diet and exercise probably kept me safe though I cringe when I look at my lipids from then ... I even sailed close to pre-diabetes...
Simon playing the devil’s advocate was hilariously funny. “ Oh look, another button! I think I’ll push it!” Beautifully choreographed interview. Great information, clear, concise and unapologetic. Well done, lads.
How about Statins and diabetes. I have been on 40 mg of Simvastatin and I have had no muscle ache but I have blood sugar problems. Recently I went without animal products and sugar and stopped my statin and my blood sugar became normal.
Might be bright but they are totally wrong as was Ancyl Keyes. When u point a finger at someone your other 4 are pointing straight back at you. The 7 countries study is a disgrace to science.
Thank you both - excellent discussion re the work of Ancel Keys and others; also, thank you for raising the point re the lack of knowledge about a healthy diet NOT being the problem and what the main contributing factors actually are - systemic changes are paramount to reversing the dire consequences of poor food choice and availability at a price affordable to all.
OMG!!! This was unbelievable! Loved it! Simon, thank you so, so much for all you do. Alan, you are a rockstar, and I can’t wait to look up more of your work. Please, keep it coming!
Hey, Simon! Love your work so much I just can't state it enough! I've been reading some of Keys' papers and I find amazing what he found back in the 50-60's. Even the fact that not all saturated fatty acids are equal in raising cholesterol he found it back then. Admiring work. But it did caught my attention the fact that they didn't even mention LDL-c back then, but came up with the Keys equation. He's equation is used to predict total serum cholesterol change, right? I know that the major changes will be in LDL-c, since it's more modifiable through diet than HDL-c and also because its normal values are lower than LDL-c's, so the absolute impact on TC is also lower. However, I'd love to hear your thoughts when we talk about Keys' equation but do not mention that he's talking about TC and not LDL-c only.
Questions and Comments I have about this. Maybe you can answer on another podcast. It will take me a while to dig for the references if you can't find them. 1. I think Dr. Esselstyn, or Dr. T. Colin Campbell took the raw data from the 7 countries study and found that animal protein had a greater correlation with CVD than saturated fat. This would drastically change the course of suggestions to give people. 2. There is a statin study that shows people on statins eat over 14 percent more total fat than people that refuse statins. The name of the study has the word "gluttony" or "gluttonous" in it. 3. For example if someone has a mild case of Familial hypercholesterolemia and eats mostly a whole food non-animal diet. Is there Relative/Absolute risk data for example in vegan Seventh Day Aventist that shows good positive results of taking a statin? 4. There is another statin study of 15 years that shows a 40+ percent increase of all-cause mortality of statin takers versus non-statin users. Most of the statin studies are only 5 years. Any arguments or data about this? 5. What about the serious issue of "Coenzyme Q10 and Statin-Induced Mitochondrial Dysfunction" from taking statins?
It's a euphemism low carbers made up to make them seem benign or even healthy/ non atherogenic, when they're anything but. as stated in the video, Large LDLs could be 3 times the size whilst still be small enough to enter the artery wall. Also stated they carry more cholesterol so they deposit even more cholesterol compared to the smaller ones. People with famililiar hypercholesteroamia have a preponderance of these large "Fluffy" particles and still suffer advanced athersclerosis. Robert lustig is particularly fond of spreading this misinformation.
We know high blood cholesterol is not a good thing at the very least. Also, we all know that really when it comes to food. It's not the cholesterol in the food but the saturated fat in the food that is the problem. Listen, I'm nearly 70 years of age, and we knew that when I was in my early 20s and nothing has changed since then to prove the opposite.. Unfortunately the best thing you can do is pick your parents carefully. Failing that a diet such as recommended by the UK NHS or British Heart foundation is as good as any. Dont drink or smoke/keep to a healthy weight and keep active. Simples.
I've been doing a low-carb diet (and feeling great!), but my LDL has gone up more than I'm comfortable with. So, in researching how to lower it through my diet, I decided to check out this video. I was VERY disappointed with how the guest mocked people who don't agree with him (calling them conspiracy theorists, vaccine deniers, covid deniers, etc.). You may have great data, and you may have the right nutritional information, but I no longer trust what you have to say.
Stick to low carb high fat. Increased ldl is not dangerous. Small, damaged, oxidized ldl is the culprit. Insulin resistance, inflammation, and oxidation are what we need to avoid. Ldl in itself does not pose a risk.
Every add for heart disease you see now states that inflammation is the number one cause of heart disease. But they push a pill instead of a normal human diet. We are adapted to eating fat. If you take out fat you either have to eat more carbs or starve yourself which is unsustainable. Don't listen to the lies of the pill pushers that want you on their drugs so they can get rich.
dawn0731, I came here to the comments section to express the same sentiment. You beat me to and and said it better than I could have. In the beginning I kept zipping through trying to pass all of the praise of Ancel Benjamin Keys. A little praise of your idol is good however this went on forever. Non alcohol fatty liver disease under the age of 19, which was primarily if not only found in alcoholics, has been on the rise since the “Food Pyramid”. Carbs, sugar, fructose are all killing us slowly. Anyway, I agree, start denigrating someone who has a different view or opinion and start losing the debate. I’m 72yo, earlier this year my cholesterol was 220(the magic number for statins), Doctor subscribed, I said no way, cutout sugars, reduced carbs, lost 25 pounds, feeling great. Follow-up numbers to come but not concerned.
Essential carbohydrates,keep questioning, maybe pre diabetes and high fat the problem, eaten with the high carbs that created the pre diabetes in the first place Good LDL Good HDL Good VHDL Bad oxidising LDL . Blood sugar levels spiking and never lowering for long periods with snacking etc Keep trying , you will get there.
Rightfully so. Just a scapegoat, at this point. Maga dose of refined PUFA and carb in the food supply. Cheap addictive toxic garbage, some of it with a “heart healthy” label. Biggest scam I can imagine, except now covid vax science gives it a run…
@@ramieskola7845 sorry dude. I can see how it could be taken as an insult but that wasn't the intention. I'd rather it inspire you to learn more about the subject. There's so much science out there on the dangers of high LDL and I've lost a lot friends and family because of it. So it's something I've studied a lot. But even I'm still learning. Science evolves. Not everything is known but a LOT is known.
@@meatflake Apology accepted. What interweb doesn't need is more fights. We should avoid phrases that are used mostly for verbal aggression. I've studied T2DM and the cholesterol debacle many years with varying intensity. Had my 1st (last?) heart attack ~2 years ago at age of 47. I was pushed for statins with an aggressive LDL goal. I confidently chose to not take any. ---+--- Couple of interesting facts Atherosclerotic plaque forms only in arteries but never in veins ie. in the high pressure side but never in the low pressure side. Both have similar amounts of lipids (LDL, IDL, HDL, etc) flowing. Ergo lipids cannot be the Vera Causa* for atherosclerosis but high blood pressure is an interesting candidate. In atherosclerotic plaque cholesterol is < 0.1% of the volume of the plaque. It is essentially just scar tissue. ---- *Vera Causa refers to the true or real cause of something.
How much in the way of oats, whole grains and other fiber foods (legumes for example) would our hunter gatherer ancestors have had access to? The levels of fiber Flanagan mentions are pretty high..
Fossilised poo says VERY high lol Even on a WFPB diet I don't come close. And why do people look back to a time when life was brutal and short when they can walk to Aldi for veggies and beans ?
Speaking of heart disease: supplementation of DHA is associated with new onset atrial fibrillation which thus means increased risk of stroke. Please adress this since you yourself promote DHA supplements
Are you suggesting we look at the makeup of breast milk and assume that this is best for long term health. If we follow that logic we should be consuming only 2-3% of our calories from protein (the content in human breast milk).
Excellent presentation. As someone formerly working in clinical biochemistry, I've been gobsmacked by people on social media telling me that we know that saturated fats and high cholesterol are good for us, which is simply not true. This video has filled in some of the gaps in my knowledge about recent developments. Regarding the sham knee surgery trial, I think it's important to note that after both the real surgery and the sham surgery, patients reported improvement in symptoms, but when tested using objective measures of knee function, neither group showed any improvement. That's one reason arthroscopic knee debridement is rarely, if ever, done these days. Placebos (and nocebos) only have subjective effects, according to all the evidence I've seen - see also the asthma study using fake inhalers, real inhalers and acupuncture (essentially a placebo) - all groups reported improvements in breathing, but the fake inhaler and acupuncture groups showed no objective improvement in FEV.
Good stuff that a lot of people really need to hear. I lost weight years ago on keto, though at the time it was called Atkins. Did it in the typical fashion, using a lot of eggs, butter, and red meat: bunless burgers, that sort of thing. I guess I'm lucky because, despite a family history of heart disease, even at 340 lbs I never saw an LDL over 110. Seven months on this lazy low carb diet and despite losing nearly 100 lbs and dropping my blood pressure, that 110 LDL got bumped to 140, still not as bad as a lot of folks have it, but bad enough that my doc, despite everything, was considering a statin. Long story short I had a friend who was from an Adventist pescatarian family and at his encouragement I dropped the eggs, butter, and red meat for nuts, seeds, oils, fish, and more leafy greens; ended up including small amounts of dairy, poultry, and soy as I went on as well, for variety's sake. Two months of this, same macronutrient distribution in terms of total fat, just switching SFA for more MUFA and PUFA -- I'm sure the increased fiber was a boon as well, though at the time I wasn't really cognizant of that -- my reduced blood pressure and all the other benefits I was seeing remained but that stubborn LDL also came down to 80; got a minor bump in my HDL as well which I hadn't seen before. I still do cycles of low carb pretty regularly, because the cognitive benefits are tremendous for me. I look back, though, and am grateful for this experience because I easily could have fallen into the denialist camp, given how well, ostensibly, I was doing on low carb.
"it's not cholesterol that causes heart disease, it's inflammation!". I put that statement in quote, as I hear it all the time from those who deny serum cholesterol and arterial plaque.
Actually, I argue inflammation causes atherothrombosis, which is the thing that kills you. Great info about mitochondria of platelets and coronary heart disease show a platelet with poorly functioning mitochondria are 50 times more likely to apoptos, i.e. clot. Inflammation decreases mitochondrial function. So the mechanism is there that inflammation causes CHD. But I'm new to this research myself. Would like a civilized conversation if you ant to discuss.
@@sherris7319It may be more Apo B that contributes to arterial plaque over 20-30 years depending on the invidual and other issues This in no way mitigates the contrubtion of metabolic contributors such as high blood pressure, insulin resistance, prediabetes, diabetes, etc., It’s just that it is not exclusive. You can still suffer soft plaque build up over 20-30 years even if nothing else applies. You cam still suffer a paralyzing store or major heart attack. The effect of Apo B is based on life time exposure. It has been compared to smoking daily dor 20-30 years starting when you are young. You may be one of the genetically blessed and live a ripe old age with no issues at all. If you are already genetically predisposed to heart disease, you may not so luckily esacape. Dr Gil Carvahlo addreeses this in a recent video he put out and in sone past videos.
Inflammation is relevant in the context of damaging the endothelial wall. A damaged arterial lining may be much easier for densely packed ApoB particles to breach and set up a plaque shop
"E = mC2 whether you like it or not" - indeed. The question is which side on this 'debate' is metaphorically denying it. Look out for a court case coming up in the High Court in London on the 3rd of July. Dr. Malcolm Kendrick and Dr. Zoe Harcombe are going forward with the second part of their case against The Mail on Sunday. In the words of Dr. Kendrick "This is a complex and highly time-consuming case, and there are many sensitive issues on the line." It was reported in the BMJ last year: The controversy over the benefits of statins is set to be aired in the High Court in London, in what the senior libel judge has described as the “most significant piece of defamation litigation that I have seen in a very long time.” Mr Justice Nicklin made the comment in a preliminary ruling in a libel action by Malcolm Kendrick, a GP, and Zoe Harcombe, a researcher, author, and blogger with a PhD in public health nutrition, against Associated Newspapers, publishers of the Mail on Sunday and Mail Online, over articles that labelled them “statin deniers” whose “deadly propaganda” had endangered lives. In the judgment Nicklin ordered that the case should be heard in two tranches: a preliminary trial of certain issues, followed by a main trial. “It is no exaggeration to say that the parameters of this litigation are very substantial,” he said. Kendrick and Harcombe are suing over articles published in the print edition of the Mail on Sunday and in Mail Online in March 2019. A news story in the paper was headlined “Statin deniers are putting patients at risk says Minister.” Of course the claim 'Statin deniers' is basically the same as 'Cholesterol Deniers'. Except of course the two above named doctors and others do not deny the existence of cholesterol, far from it. A huge problem for those who use such simplistic terms.
Well, don‘t read those articles. They are greatly misquoting people and spreading misinformation whatever „side“ you are on. This includes social media. It is each one’s personal decision to take or not to take a statin. My opinion is to take one when you can not lower your risk enough through lifestyle changes.
Which side is metaphorically denying that E=mc^2? So a libel case should not only demonstrate the 'cholesterol -> health complication but to also prove the veracity of E=mc^2? Both parties need a big war chest on this one. 😂 Libel cases are won with money. Two individuals are effectively arguing against Statin makers who have more money. I'd guess the Statin makers have more. I would have avoided this one. If someone with vast money resources libel you he has the right to it, since money is might and might is right in the anglosphere. I'm not so sure about the process elsewhere.
@@ramieskola7845 Hi, thanks for the reply. I think they know what they are doing. It remains to be seen whether or not they are successful. I think you have a lack of knowledge about the contents of the action. It is not, I think, as complicated as you might have it. The trial is now over, they await the result.
They didn't have stents back then which delays deaths. Obesity exploded after the low fat snack craze that took off and left many of my classmates morbid obese. Aren't triglycerides a high risk?
The European consensus statement with primary author Ference admits that LDL-C is a poor measure of LDL particle number or concentration under certain very common conditions, namely insulin resistance (metabolic syndrome), diabetes, and high triglycerides: "Under most conditions, LDL-C concentration and LDL particle number are highly correlated, and therefore plasma LDL-C is a good surrogate for LDL particle concentration. However, in certain conditions (e.g. the metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and hypertriglyceridaemia), plasma LDL-C and LDL particle concentration can become discordant as a result of the predominance of small, dense cholesterol-poor LDL, and therefore plasma LDL-C may not accurately reflect LDL particle concentration or its effect on cardiovascular risk. Under these conditions, direct measurement of LDL particle number or apoB concentration (recognizing that each LDL particle contains a single apoB molecule) may more accurately reflect the causal effect of LDL on ASCVD. In this Consensus Statement, we assess the evidence that LDL causes ASCVD by critically appraising the clinical evidence, with the understanding that the majority of clinical studies have used LDL-C as an estimate of LDL concentration." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5837225/ Studies have found that the concentration of small dense LDL particles is correlated with adverse atherosclerotic events whereas the concentration of large buoyant LDL particles is not correlated with adverse events. Watch this lecture and check the references it illustrates, in particular starting here: th-cam.com/video/dOzgrhG0xKI/w-d-xo.html "Dr. David Diamond: Should Low Carbohydrate Diet Guidelines Include Concerns Over LDL Cholesterol?" In other parts of his lecture, Dr. Diamond explains the important role of the LDL particle in immunity and reducing all-cause mortality (not just CVD mortality) in the aged population.
Dr. Flanagan (PhD) is a nutritionist who does not support a low carb lifestyle. It seems (to me) that he views data through that lens to support his orthodoxy. Other researchers have reviewed the same data and support a different analysis. He lost me when he glossed over the "French Paradox" by explaining the same data was present in other cohorts. Other researchers have said that the inclusion of the French data (and others) would have made it impossible for Keyes to support his hypothesis so it was excluded. So pick your expert and go with that, there is no definitive answer from Dr. Flanagan, only his opinion. He is just another voice on TH-cam, no better or worse than those "deniers".
@@AliceFarmer-bg4dwFrenchman here. People from the northern part of France who cook everything in butter have more heart attacks than southerners who use olive oil. Incidentally, the so called French paradox has been explained : French doctors underreported cvd.
One of the arguments against LDL is that liver throttles the amount cholesterol it produces as a function of amount of dietary cholesterol. There fore the claim is that the cholesterol in blood will balanced by the liver. Although my own experience has shown that when I eliminate animal my cholesterol changes dramatically ie from 255 to 178.
@1:38 False. Keys did not 'uncover the link between diet, blood cholesterol and heart disease'. It is a hypothesis proposed by John Gofman decade earlier.
completely fascinating. there's so many issues that emerge in post war but increased consumption of animal fats seems so obviously a major story. but heart disease is only one story. cancer is the other one and metabolic disorders.
Re: Post WW2 _"increased consumption of animal fats"!_ In this universe it is the astronomical skyrocketing of seed oil consumption that is the "fat"-mammoth in the room surely? Consumption of animal fats has actually decreased I'm sure...... if for no other reason that its being replaced by the seed oils. I grew up in the 50's in UK and we never heard of a seed oil until Mazola appeared in the 60's Also the extraction of fat from (lo-fat & no-fat) dairy products has been MASSIVE. When I was a boy we paid extra to get gold-top, high-fat Jersey milk....... skimmed-milk was unknown. Personally i think these lads are "establishment-believers" more than anything else and they are too young & fit to have hit the metabolic wall of decades of high-carb consumption. These questions are _far_ from settled. There are very few open minds on either side and these lads betray their personal tribalism in referring to "decades of research" type of comments (appeal to established authority) and saying how hard it is to listen to oppenents . (antipathy)
@@wilts43 What do you think is so bad about seed oils? The Japanese have used sesame seed oils for centuries and the leading cause of death is cancer, not heart disease. There also have been countless studies testing the concerns that are brought up about seed oils, might it be inflammation or cardiovascular risk with the result of both decreases in inflammation and cardiovascular risk. I‘m all for questioning. Without that science would stand still. But those questions have been answered. There has been a time when the oils were partly hydrogenated and used to have trans fats. Maybe that‘s where this rumor has it’s origin? What you are also forgetting that seed oils don‘t have to be industrial oils at all. I don‘t use refined ones. They are tasteless. I use always cold pressed. Besides, deep frying is always unhealthy no matter what fat you use. The food industry always jumps onto trends. If the trend is low fat there are low fat products to „cheat“ and still have their favorite foods instead. What is in there instead does not matter to the consumer. That the initial thought of lowering the fat content of the diet was reduction of total calories not replacing fat with sugar seems to have been forgotten here. And today since low carb is trending we have all these fancy low carb products like keto dougnuts, low carb pizza etc that mimic the foods you can not have on low carb, but are far from healthy. The meat and dairy industry is rarely target of criticism when nutrition is talked about, although it is the reason why more and more Pathogenese become antibiotic resistant when the animals are fed daily with antibiotics. Also the hormone use in raising those animals and the fact these remain in the meat or milk. The meat from a healthy animal on a farm that is advertised is a big fat lie most of the times. So yes please don‘t fall for the lies of the food industry, but do not just find a excuse why the foods you like to eat should be healthy. If you want to go back in time and eat like then you would even have to cut back on saturated fat. Per capita meat consumption has never been as high as in current times. The problem is that people did not follow the advice given. We are far away from the 10% of dietary saturated fat. And calorie consumption skyrocketed while caloric needs declined due to sedentary lifestyle.
You would be shocked to find that not only does a lack of good government regulation prevent good health outcomes, bad government regulations and support drive poor health outcomes. Inflation causes short term thinking by taxing all savings and subsidizing all spending. Regulations prevent you and I from forming whole food health insurance cooperatives. As much as tobacco is taxed it is also subsidized and so are other aspects of agriculture we don't want to encourage. Also, bad choices are made worse as with the "wholesome meat act" which by regulations you might think sound nice made smaller and more sanitary meat processing effectively illegal. Similarly, milk is mixed in great vats to conform with regulations. As with health, or any complex system it's hard to improve on natural regulatory phenomenon in the liberal/free-market economy
Ooookkk. I agree with the Ancel Keys portion. However, as the podcast got longer, your guest (specifically when talking about anti-statin rhetoric), he just paints a very wide brush as if people are black or white. Got a bit judgmental for my taste. I believe in vaccines, got all the covid vax available for me… but, I do not deny that people had experienced side effects. I was wary about statins when my husband started taking it. 3 months into it he experienced horrible side effects from it. The hesitation on statins does not make me one of those conspiracy theorists. My problem with BIG pharma is when making things not affordable for people (i.e.Shrekeli, Insulin pricing issues). On top of that, you have the opioid issue thanks to some pharmaceutical companies.
Way too much focus on LDL debate and way too little focus on all the other known risk factors for CVD. Please take the blinders off if you want to help people avoid CVD.
There is not as much denial regarding other risk factors online compared to LDL. Very few people contest that smoking, hypertension, diabetes, and obesity increased risk of heart disease. Regardless, these topics are discussed on this channel as well.
This conversation reeks of bias. It is too bad. This had the potential to be a better scientific presentation. Demonizing a group such as the “Low carb” group is not a scientific approach. Take away the bias add in the randomized controlled studies and tease out the problem is what is needed. We live in a time of rising rates of diabetes, of heart disease, of cancer, of obesity, of healthcare costs. Let's focus on the problem and the solutions. Any discussion that does not present the negatives is not scientific. I find a grain of truth in all of these discussions. Eating whole foods is part of the answer. Eating a diet that has kept our species healthy for millennia is also something we should return to. Look at stable isotope analysis of the bones of our ancestors. That is an undeniable science. Mankind has changed the food we eat in the pursuit of convenience, the pursuit of how to make things that have a longer shelf life, and the longing for the best tasting. All of these are admirable but are all of those considerations healthy? If microbes won't eat it, if it won't mold if it can remain on a shelf indefinitely… shouldn't we maybe look closer to see if what we have done is healthy? Farmers have learned how to make animals fat and sick, there is ample history behind that. Coincidentally, eating the same foods as those that make animals sick and following the same or similar healthcare practices in people seems to have caused the same obesity and ill health. It's not us against them. Hiding the results of studies is not appropriate, researchers that won't include their names when publishing results is a practice that is not appropriate and publishing results in obscure foreign publications is also deceptive. This is a complicated matter that should be approached openly and honestly and not purely driven by where the next round of research funding will come from.
I'm just here to read the comments of all the zealots defending high cholesterol lol. Thanks for all the work you're doing in trying to educate the masses and hopefuly you get some of them back on track!
Alan and Simon are two young men who are absolutely sincere and really believe their message. However, they really misrepresented the low carb movement and the likes of Gary Taubes. As an engineer, I couldn't even make sense of Alan's defence of the 7 Nation Study. If the beautiful straight line result vanishes when all 22 countries are included, then the original study has a fatal problem. Right now, there is a research project looking people who do not have familial hypercholesterolemia but who have very low Triglycerides, high HDL and an LDL so high it is in the top 0.1% of the population. (an LDL average of 250 mg/dL or 6.5 mmol/L) The final results should be out any month,, but the initial data shows that after an average of 4.4 years, most have zero plaque build-up with a CT angiogram. None of the 100 are in a medium or high risk category. The average age is about 55. If the hypothesis that LDL is causal for Atherosclerosis is an unarguable fact, then these results would be impossible. Alan, stop looking for data to prove your beliefs. Start looking for data to disprove them, and don't try and shut down contrary argument on the basis that "it will kill people". Why have all the thousands cholesterol studies involving 20 million people never tested this group of people?
Gary comes from investigating scientific fraud in areas like Physics. In Physics, a hypothesis is disproven by any amount of significant error, no matter how small. Newton's Laws of Motion are correct on Earth to probably over 8 decimal places. However, it is slightly wrong when analysing the orbit of Mercury, so Newtons Laws are incorrect. Good scientists love to see their beliefs challenged because that is when breakthroughs become possible. In medical research, doctors are over the moon with a 90% correlation between their hypothesis and data. I understand it, but it is crap science. Heart Disease was quite rare in the US around 1900., but the LDL was the same. If you can find at least one case where very high LDL over a long period is combined with no evidence of arterial plaques, then that would be very interesting - it would suggest that maybe LDL is not on its own causal. Is there one such case in the history of medicine? What if the current study by Professor Mathew Budoff of the Lundquist Institute (not a low carb advocate) finds in a few months zero change in the CT angiogram scores of 100 test subjects after 1 year with LDL over 190 mg/dl? Based on preliminary data, it is looking possible. It would be fascinating.@@TheProofWithSimonHill
On statins and placebo/nocebo effect, let me just say that even Dayspring (who probably understands their mechanism better than anyone) says he cant tolerate them... I get that they work; I wish I could tolerate them because I do understand the role of apo b. Alas, I need to focus on exercise and WFPB diet
Unsaturated fats are essentially monomers. Before they found industrial scale use in food they had a role in paint setting and drying by oxygen polymerisation. It's likely once in the body they undergo the same oxidation process especially in high oxygen concentrations and under pressure ie in arteries. Having saturated fat in the diet which are largely oxidation stable would mitigate this. I would never advocate a diet pushed at high unsaturated fats and especially polyunsaturated fay's. It would be like eating reactive monomer. Leave the top of a bottle of fish oil for a week or two in a dark cupboard. Where it meets the atmosphere you will find a polymeric cross linked cap forms. It's obvious a blend of oil types is beneficial based on a balanced diet
At 58:00 Dr Alan Flanagan makes the claim that Dr Aseem Malhotra and others are "deliberately misleading people". I am curious what the evidence for this position is? Aside from the obvious difference in opinion on the scientific evidence, is there some evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance? Does he have some conflicts of interest? Is there evidence to suggest he does not have the best interests of his patients and the general public in mind?
zero evidence that Malhotra and others are "deliberately misleading people" or engaging in wrongdoing, malfeasance, etc. but according to this AF guy, those that disagree with him are revisionist, evangelical, blind, dogmatic, conspiracy theorists who are "devoid of intellectual honesty and epistemic humility."
First saw you, Simon, on a RR podcast and was very well informed at exit. Since then I enrolled in a Nutrition and Wellness course at Cornell. It is like all other things, what you make of it. But these days when I hear things about say APO-B counts and markers at least Inhave a reference to what this means in the arteries. Receptors that are revealed through arterial stress that attract Low Density Lipids who are in turn set upon by the immune system which is captured in the fat and then collects blood cells eventually. The atherosclerosis module was my favorite. And I was a bit wary that Cornell was going to tear down my plant based palace. Only slightly disappointed that Professor Levitsky downplayed the reversal of CHD with how extremely difficult the diet is...(because of the cultural abnormality). The heart disease module was supposed to be 3rd but was last for me. Never mentioned was Dr Esselstyn bit je did give props to Dr Ornish for reversing CHD though I think Dr Esselstyn and Campbell showed evidence first and was a Cornell grad.❤❤
The claim is that in the original study contained 20 countries that were tracked and to prove a point only seven countries were included to press a point when otherwise the study would have been inconclusive.
Heart attacks were a non-factor in 1930. By 1955 they were a crisis. What changed? Was it increased meat consumption, or skyrocketing rates of cigarette smoking? Think about it.
it is directly linked to the Standard American diet. The revolution of low fat, high carb, ultra processed foods, high sugar. There was no such thing as adolescents with fattly livers until the 1990s. Hmm I wonder why. It is not because they are eating red meat.
@@jennysiepka9900 The SAD came later. In the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's, Americans were eating lots of meat, chicken and eggs, and not much junk. Obesity was not a problem. Cigarettes and polluted air were causing heart attacks. The SAD high-carb, low-fat diet really didn't get going until the 1980's, when eggs were blamed for high cholesterol and heart attacks, fat became a "four letter word," and obesity skyrocketed. So in summary, in the 60's, 70's and into the early 80's was smoking, the from the mid-80's to today it is our shit SAD diet. And I am AMAZED at the percentage of women who are actually scared to eat red meat.
I’m sorry, but that is just not true. I come from a German family. So does my mother in law. Everybody dead in their fifties , at the latest sixties, from heart attack or stroke!
@4:15 Ancell Keys is a great scientist because great powers of money and politics colluded with him and Low carb community is devoid of intellectual honesty? Really? You are giving scientific advice to someone? We're done here. This podcast started with hero worship and bigotry against the dissidents I have no expectation that this is going to get any better.
For some people it may be worth rolling the dice. Living with active autoimmune diseases that are non-responsive to medications, often leaves you on deaths doorstep. If a keto/carnivore diet improves this situation, it may just be worth the potential heart disease risk.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill would you be able to point me in the direction of resources to support this kind of diet. The autoimmune journey can be especially trying for a few of us! Thanks Simon
I have no doubt in his knowledge but I don’t think he understands much about some people actually hearing him. It’s truly difficult to hear someone talking for so long without a break in between. This is the problem with majority of people; they cannot stop. I know it’s extremely difficult but I’m sure there must be a solution because after all we want to be heard…especially someone who obviously is so intelligent!
Let me remind him that the side effect study on statin he mentioned he never provided the audience with some basic details like the size of the study and who actually paid for the study and which statins were included and at what dose. As someone who's trying to make a point, he's very stingy on substance and very generous in shooting down the other side. Dr Alan Flanagan isn't very convincing in his criticisms and even his defense of Ancel keyes is quite weak and lacking in substance but full of unsupported praise. I wish he could come back and do a point by point rebuttal of a very strong cardiologist who has presented a well substantiated debunk of Ancel keyes theories.
@@888jucu If you indist. There's a few of them who are quite open about about their stance on Ancel keyes and his fraudulent history. Dr Aseem Malhorta is one of them and he has published a few studies himself. th-cam.com/video/x3BzgZqFuZc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=WT8gsrOD8nHDPmBL
@@bobmorane4926 No idea but if u are trying to attach a link etc then normally these messages are deleted so if indeed u have been trying to attach a link just drop the link from the message 👍
But we don’t need to eat preformed cholesterol. Our liver makes our own cholesterol from Acetyl-CoA which is made from any of the 3 marcos. When we eat cholesterol containing foods we’re just eating cooked cholesterol that we don’t need and that likely causes problems long term. People need to study physiology and biochemistry. B12 is the only thing we can’t get from eating only plant foods and it can be argued why getting it from a supplement is better than from animal foods. Plus b12 deficiency usually takes a long time to occur. And it doesn’t has to be taken daily. And even people that consume meat have been shown to have b12 deficiency. Because of their intrinsic factor. All amino acids can be obtained. Retinol is easily converted from beta carotene.
@@Billy97ify Nope. They've found in the last few years that, if you account for apoB, LDL cholesterol, LDL particle size, non-HDL-C, or triglycerides don't mean anything. They were an indirect measure of apoB. Obesity & refined carbs raise apoB. When you have too much apoB, the body can't clear it, and it becomes chemically modified and causes atherosclerosis. Why does every unique way of decreasing apoB work? Because apoB is causal. The organizations are slowly coming around, e.g., the European Society of Cardiology recently admitted apoB is much more accurate than LDL-C, because LDL-C can signal high apoB.
Ancel Keys cherry picked his data. Refined oils, flours, sugars and hydrogenated fats is what causes a lot of poor health. 4 oz of meat is not a problem, but big fatty cuts along with fried foods and alcohol or soft drinks is. The sugar on meat is more dangerour than meat alone. Corn/Soy fed beef has more omega 6 fats and the cattle are as healthy as grass fed, grass finished with has more omega 3 fats. I switched to whole foods, plant based, no sugar, no oil, no salt in Nov 2020 to reverse health problems. Without the processed foods I don't think I would ever had to give up meat. I am 67 now. Eating instant mashed potatoes and sweet potatoes at my moms retirement home and salted roasted almonds (coated in oil) led to a decline in health and memory. No idea of what fat was in the potatoes.
Keys never advocated for any of the things you claim. He pushed the Mediterranean diet. Fruit, vegetable, legumes, olive oil, fish, fowl, egg and dairy.
@@markaguilera493 I did not say he avocated for it. Should have put the other comments in seperate paragraph. Just what we ended up with big ag and marketing. If animal fats are bad, the hydrogenated oil where somehow supposed to be better. Food Pyramid is a result of multipled factors, big ag, Ancel Keys?
@@markfox5349 big cuts of meat cause kidney damage in older adults and raise cholesterol in everyone. Kids now show signs of artial damage that eventually becomes atherosclerosis. Meat and dairy lobbly is making us sick. Excess intramyocellar lipids (fat inside the muscle and liver cells) cause insulin resistance (major cause of obesity) and type II diabetes. Grass fed beef is healthier, but over eating over prolonged periods is unhealthy. Excess meat consumption causes insulin spikes eventually, which causes obesity and later type II diabetes when the insulin is no longer able to push glucose into the cells, resulting in high blood sugar. High levels of cholesterol and sugar cause kidney damage. So the more meat you eat the sooner you'll have to give up alchol, sugar, bread, etc..
As someone who's reciewed these studies but followed these people you mentioned, i was very confused. Thank you for liatening the methodology. One thing i dont think you mentioned was glycocalyx and its invovlement in the protective mechanism against oxidized LDL particles cause atherosclerosis. Also, Id love your take on the main cause of mortality for heart disease, atherothrombosis, and what the research shows with platelet mitochondria health. Finally, arebthere any studies if blood chilesterol levels comboned with endothelial function tests?
I don't think that anyone says that LDL levels are completely irrelevant. I mean, if all you know about someone is that their LDL level is high, you can conclude that they have a higher risk of heart disease. But if you ALSO know their HDL and triglyceride levels, you will know their TC/HDL and TG/HDL ratios, and these will will give you a much more accurate -- and perhaps quite different -- picture. Sound about right?
So to be clear, Keys did not have a measure of Hdl versus ldl and their respective impact on cardiac health? Is one more correlated to cardiac health than the other?
Hi. Recall Robert Ostfeld discuss a journal article on the topic. Not so much the amount of HDL but how well they attend to their assigned task. Essentially, it ain’t the power in numbers diatribe postulated over the years…until the next paper. Heard the discussion on YT.
@@portfoliow The population is growing and getting older. However the rate of heart disease has been in a downtrend since 1990. Most deaths from CVD are in poorer countries where access to modern medicine is spotty or nonexistent.
Well, I have to say that Dr. Flanagan's flippant dismissive attitude towards anyone that does not share his views is disappointing . I was put on Statins because my Doctor said I had high cholesterol and needed a statin. This was before there were computers and internet so I was unaware that there could be side effects. And yet I most definitely had side effects, which I was afraid to report because I didn't want to look like I was weak. However, I just could not live with these side effects so I discontinued the statins. I didn't even realize there were other statins that might not have the same effects. The clinic I went to had new doctors coming in every six months so there was little to none of the personal care one would hope for. Small remote communities can be like that. So the bottom line is the side effects are very real and not a product of internet conspiracy, there was no internet. Al Gore hadn't invented it yet.(joke)
Interesting that Dr. Flanagan cannot answer the question about WHY Acel Keys cherrypicked seven countries out of 22. His answer is something like 'no need to include the other countries, the seven countries had enough information to prove the point Ancel Keys wanted to make' (!)
I have followed a plant based diet for several years because my ldl cholesterol was slightly elevated - 220- but it did not decrease those levels and what's more I got osteoporosis because the diet was too low in protein and many other minerals and vitamins precious for bone health...
And I listened to the first 15 minutes of this video without knowing what either of these two are trying to say. I guess I'm too stupid to understand it
I am big fan of long, in depth, well structured podcasts like yours or Rich Roll’s or Dr. Peter Attias’s ones. Thank you for all the time and effort you put int these and sharing your knowledge so generously.
Agreed! Love this podcast!
this was brilliant, thank you. I love the emphasis on fiber at the very end. I made a concerted effort to increase my fiber intake and decreased animal products. I eventually gave them up completely, and now I am getting 70-80 g/day of fiber. It was actually pretty easy to do - you’ve got to quit non-fiber containing meat and junk food in order to make room for all those plants. It would solve a lot of problems if people were to fixate on fiber half as much as they do on protein.
As a woman who loves to cook I will make it simple. Nothing sticks together in a batter until you add the fats and the sugar. It’s similar in the human body as well.
My grandma would say that you had to match how much and what you eat with your activity level. In the 1950’s and 1960’s for instance children ran and played outside more than today’s children. Very few people were overweight back then. We came back inside in the summer when it started to get dark. We took a bath and went to bed tired then. There were no computers, cellphones, cable tv, etc to tempt someone to stay indoors. At night you braved the mosquitoes to look at the stars.
By the 1970’s soda and junk food exploded in everyone’s diet choices. Very few people want to walk, ride the bus or ride a bike anymore. We drive everywhere even to make short trips.
In 2023 you are lucky for an unclouded view to even see stars.
I make batter all the time with no sugar.
yep. all those Hippies at Woodstock were all skinny.
exercising outside at sunset helps me sleep like a log. solid 7 or 8 hrs.
Sugar is STICKY! Fat is slippery! We need animal fat! Cholesterol is not the enemy! Red meat is completely absorbed by the body. Fatty red meat is the most nutrient dense food on the planet! Plants and vegetables are filled with oxalates, lectins, phytates, tannins, phthalates, and other carcinogens that can cause cancer and other metabolic diseases.
Simon, have you been tracking the discussion around the “lean mass hyper responder” phenomenon? It’s interesting to see how that may potentially alter our understanding of the association between cholesterol levels and CVD, putting what we know now into a larger context.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Could you please add it to TH-cam? Would be great.
This is quickly becoming my favorite TH-cam channel/podcast.
Many thanks to you and your host for this Simon. I really appreciate your time and effiorts in putting forth such interesting, informative, educational, and myth busting videos.
Glad you enjoyed it
Can't wait for my commute home from work to listen to this....I work in a cardiac operating room, so very relevant 👌👏 You rock Simon, best interviewer ever! You always cover all the questions I have in my head! Cheers from 🇨🇦
I just love the cool, casual nerdiness of these (I say that with admiration btw) - the intros are like “hi, grab a hot beverage and take a seat, we’re gonna talk science and public health!” 🙏🏾☕️ Anyway perfect timing to revisit this one, given the last episode. Keep ‘em coming, man!
These podcasts deserve more views! They are so in-depth & educational. Always enjoy them.
I totally agree!
My mother, born in 1923, in Lyon, France, told me that prior to WWll, the only culinary oil she ever encountered was cold pressed walnut oil. I have wondered if that may have been part of the answer to the French Paradox. Cheese was common but was aged quite a bit so it was shelf stable (no frig) and was more often goat cheese. Fois Gras was really a farmer or rich person, ok, well off person treat. It was not mass produced so the amount of saturated fat in the diet from liver paste was low. Meat was usually rabbit, which are fairly lean even when fattened for butchering. Bread was the staple and it was not much different than today’s well made French bread made with yeast and refined wheat flour (white flour stores really well). Bear in mind that era was post WWl and Europe was recovering. Food was hard to get.
Amazing interview. I saw another youtube channel interviewed this guy covering similar topics but the audio was of really poor quality. I was hoping a better version would be widely available and that's what we have here!
I was in the LDL denial crowd way back in 2010 but slowly started to see how dangerous they were over the years. (mainly due to a guy on youtube named plant positive whos video's went way too underappreciated.)
It's really hard to overstate just how freaking dangerous this whole movement is. I'm glad I didn't push stuff on friends and family back when I thought high LDL was fine.
Ultimately the fundamentalist butter believers are unlikely to change their mind ever after they end up the ER with an MI, but it's good to have this stuff available for people willing to actually look at the truth.
Such a great episode, Simon!!
I had to come back after reading more of Keys' work. I'm amazed how far they got back in the 50's and 60's! It's like we've been talking so much about stuff already known for a while.
Anyway, I'd love to hear you talk a bit about how do you guys see the guidelines talking about restricting saturated fatty acids but not mentioning that not all SFA are created equal. In one extreme side, butyric acid is a short chain SFA with benefits already known when produced by our microbiota. On the other side, one of Keys' paper back in the day "Serum Cholesterol Response to Changes in the Diet.
IV. Particular Saturated Fatty Acids in the Diet" already had proved that stearic acid should not be taken into account, and it is significantly present in butter. For instance, if we take off the consideration the SFA shorter than 12 C and stearic acid from butter the SFA content drops about 50%, which is very considerable. When comparing it to other fats used for cooking, for instance, shouldn't we consider that instead of simply comparing SFA content from labels?
Excited to listen to this. Not sure if this is covered, but one question I have is regarding the coronary calcium scan. Many carnivores including Saladino have very high LDL but claim it's okay because his coronary calcium score is 0. Does this mean that his high LDL still poses a long term risk even if he currently doesn't have any atherogenic plaque? What are your thoughts on the coronary calcium scan?
Fascinating question, I’d like to know also. Last I heard his LDL was over 500.
calcium score doesn't measure soft plaque only calcified plaque. Someone saladino's age is expected to have a zero score no matter what they do or eat. People with zero calcified plaque still commonly have clogged arteries and heart attacks.
Correct!
Start listening at about 53:00 in the December 2018 Q&A. - Say you have a calcium score of 100, start following Esselstyn 100%, then have calcium score redone after a year. It could very well go up to 175. Reason is the calcium score tells you 2 things
a) you have calcified plaque and
b) you have non-calcified plaque which is inflamed and is the dangerous kind which can rupture, causing a heart attack.
So a positive calcium scan indicates a higher risk for future cardiac events because you’ll also have the non-calcified plaque.
Now if you change your diet, that inflamed plaque will lose inflammation and become calcified. So, your calcium score may be higher BUT you have decreased your risk of a heart attack. The calcified plaques are stable. The inflamed non-calcified plaques are unstable and can rupture in the turbulent blood flow. The video Q&A also talks about Lp(a), taking leafy greens on Coumadin, Omega 3s.
Here is the video th-cam.com/video/ZC3wRx4vV7g/w-d-xo.html
@@plants_and_wellness1574Why would anyone want to take risks like this?
Americans get most of their saturated fat from pizza, cookies, ,muffins and cakes.
that's call trans fats, the bad fat
Most saturated fat is found in animal sources: meat, dairy and eggs. Ultra-processed foods are not necessarily synonymous with saturated fat.
I really appreciate these podcasts, I try a lot of what I learn here! I went from a junk food eater to a whole food plant based and I felt so lost and alone, but I found this podcast, Rich Roll, Huberman Lab and I can’t thank you enough for keeping me in a mind set of learning something new everyday!
Japanese scientists wrote 2015 article title: Statins stimulate atherosclerosis and heart failure.
"In contrast to the current belief that cholesterol reduction with statins decreases atherosclerosis, we present a perspective that statins may be causative in coronary artery calcification and can function as mitochondrial toxins that impair muscle function in the heart and blood vessels through the depletion of coenzyme Q10 and 'heme A', and thereby ATP generation. Statins inhibit the synthesis of vitamin K2, the cofactor for matrix Gla-protein activation, which in turn protects arteries from calcification. Statins inhibit the biosynthesis of selenium containing proteins, one of which is glutathione peroxidase serving to suppress peroxidative stress."
Yep, Simon's a crank....
I would love to see you interview Ivor Cummings on this subject.
Taubes reminds me of that story about Billy Graham when he and his Canadian counterpart had a loss of faith: "What are we going to do now? It's too late to become dairy farmers."
Can't wait for this!! Just one edit from the description, Statin is misspelled.
This was fantastic. Thank you for the level of detail covered in this podcast. Your podcast is was these conversations need. Keep them coming.
I love this episode! Its always a cosy atmosphere and i try to learn english with your podcasts (=.I would be very interested in the impact of nutrition on epigenetics.
Your response to those who question the independent causality of LDL levels is, "They're just wrong". I don't think so, at least not in all cases, so I ask "In what way or ways are they wrong?" You say there is "overwhelming data". I ask sincerely what other than correlation do you provide? (And as my cardiologist told me regarding adverse effects, "Correlation is not causation."( And then, though he'd known me for more than 20 years, he conjectured for the first time at my 2011 age of seventy that I might have FH. Yes, many male family members died of heart disease (my father died at age 87, for example) but you and I know that FH manifests with high cholesterol levels early in life, so even mentioning FH in my case was nonsense.
Before I gave in to the constant push, always fear-focused, to take a statin, I asked my doctors this question: Reputable institutions said that lipid ratios were perhaps better indicators of risk than simple LDL levels. And ALL my lipid ratios were fantastic: TG/HDL was 61/88. I'd also read that this ratio correlated with greater proportion of benign, large fluffy low density types of LDL and smaller proportion dense BB-like LDL. The cardiologist immediately told me that the science wasn't there yet.
But, but that's a conflict in the science! One thing tells me I'm fine, the other tells me I'm at high risk. Both come from top sources.
Response: take the statin, delivered with great condescension. You may know of Dr. John Reckless's famous comment about statins in the water supply. (If you are open, I could find my 2011 sources again...but it's probably more important for you. My health crashed fast and permanently subsequent to the statin. You can see photos on StatinStories.com of my legs (the same legs that about a year before were trekking in the Himalayan foothills for several weeks of 6-8 hour days, no problems).
You acknowledge that the food industry is nightmare to our health, but many of us would instead describe the Big Pharma/Big Food complex. One of my doctors asked me if I knew what percentage of a doctor's education is paid for by Big Pharma....
As you've said to your viewers, if you're open-minded, debate is meaningful. With no push from Big Pharma (rather the opposite) many health care professionals dispute the old Food Pyramid and the unexplained need for a vast proportion of us to be on statin treatment. One of the main reasons I at least listen to them is that although they sometimes claim that in certain contexts, extremely high LDL levels do not cause the problems that we've been conditioned to fear so much--BUT they show concern about these levels, they explain why they exist, and they ask for other scientist to challenge them. They acknowledge that they are always concerned about being wrong and invite scientific challenge. THANK YOU!
I have listened to many of your podcasts and I also listen to Plant Chompers, Gil Carvalho and Layne Norton. But this dialogue was really enlightening. It covers all the aspects of this low carb vs science community beef situation. Reminds me the documentary Merchants of Doubt and they ways of defending their agenda that tobacco and later oil industry adopted.
If so few people suffered from cardiovascular disease a hundred or more years ago, and saturated fats were consumed regularly, then why when a sudden and considerable increase in heart disease took place some fifty years ago it was saturated fats that were to blame? That makes absolutely zero sense. And furthermore with all of these supposedly heart healthy low fat diets and nutritional guidelines as well as cholesterol lowering medications, we are still seeing increasing numbers of heart related diseases and deaths. That also makes no sense. People will debate what is to be believed until the end of time. Personally I think saturated fats are not the culprit, we are designed to and have been consuming them for eons, so let’s look elsewhere for answers, perhaps sugar and highly processed foods ie: polyunsaturated fats would be a good start. It is the increase in these types of foods that mirror the increase in chronic health issues, and the new science makes it more clear that statin medications are of such minuscule benefit ( if any at all because statins or no statins people have heart attacks and die anyway , I have known a few personally ) and many users experience problematic symptoms that take away from their enjoyment of life which will also affect their longevity. So what does make sense is that the pushing of these drugs is for financial gain. Countless people depend on the manufacture and sale of them for their livelihood. My advice for what it’s worth is closely research as much information as you can and there’s plenty of it, and make your own determination based on the collective data what feels right to you and offers you the most peace of mind. Then as the old saying goes, Live and Let Live. Good luck and stay well ❤
because they ate saturated fat they were healthy. Sugar and carbs are raising body fat, thus now more heart disease and diabetes. 35 percent of Americans are obese.
This is what I've deduced, please tell me if I'm wrong:
1. Someone with atherosclerosis will always have high LDL. (Because LDL is increased to deliver cholesterol to repair the endothelium)
2. Someone who eats saturated fat will have temporarily high LDL. (Because LDL transports fats around the body, raising LDL for a period)
3. Therefore a high LDL doesnt always mean atherosclerosis.
4. But a low LDL means lack of atherosclerosis.
It seems that LDL is simply trying to fix the problem, not cause it.
Could atherosclerosis be caused by some other mechanism such as inflammation?.
1 is disproved by Miami Heart study (non) correlations
@@themekfrommars Agreed, I made an error. I've since learned that there's no correlation at all between LDL and atherosclerosis.
1. not always
2. Not always
3. High LDL _may_ be more likely to develop athersclorosis but it is not any one of the underlying causes, hence the lack of association in practice
4. Again, maybe less likely because it limits the disease process after it has already started.
5. Yes, obviously, cholesterol helps cells repair themselves, damaged cells through mechanisms like oxidation and glycation is the main thing that starts off the process (obviously). Or it would happen in everyone.
Two extremely well-spoken gents, giving a clear description of the current body of evidence and the history to which that stems, thanks, Simon and Alan.
This is one of the very best nutrition podcasts out there. Simon is a great podcaster and gets to the heart of the truth. Well done Simon.
I listened to an interesting podcast by Dr Nadir Ali , a cardiologist. 'Do statins prevent heart disease' interesting to listen to this type of talk on this channel vs the talk by Dr Nadir. It certainly keeps me more open-minded to all views.
cholesterol denialists vs cholesterol alarmists... it's best to get as many perspectives as possible and reach your own conclusions. i respect Ali.
not so much of this dogmatic Keys Apologist who insults everyone who disagrees with him & says that he would not waste his time trying to have a conversation with someone who says "LDL Cholesterol is not causal to CVD" and he would just say that they're wrong. and laugh.
so "Case Closed." it's settled. no need for investigation or opposing views.
p.s. "Statins are wonderful. Low-carbers are Conspiracy Theorist quacks."
@@chuckleezodiac24 fix your diet and lose weight and no need for statins or stents for most people. I was overweight myself for a while, but thankfully my core WFPB diet and exercise probably kept me safe though I cringe when I look at my lipids from then ... I even sailed close to pre-diabetes...
Simon playing the devil’s advocate was hilariously funny. “ Oh look, another button! I think I’ll push it!” Beautifully choreographed interview. Great information, clear, concise and unapologetic. Well done, lads.
How about Statins and diabetes. I have been on 40 mg of Simvastatin and I have had no muscle ache but I have blood sugar problems. Recently I went without animal products and sugar and stopped my statin and my blood sugar became normal.
He certainly not obese.
Two of the brightest minds in the health & nutrition space. Thank you both for what you do.
Might be bright but they are totally wrong as was Ancyl Keyes. When u point a finger at someone your other 4 are pointing straight back at you. The 7 countries study is a disgrace to science.
Thank you both - excellent discussion re the work of Ancel Keys and others; also, thank you for raising the point re the lack of knowledge about a healthy diet NOT being the problem and what the main contributing factors actually are - systemic changes are paramount to reversing the dire consequences of poor food choice and availability at a price affordable to all.
OMG!!! This was unbelievable! Loved it! Simon, thank you so, so much for all you do. Alan, you are a rockstar, and I can’t wait to look up more of your work. Please, keep it coming!
Hey, Simon! Love your work so much I just can't state it enough! I've been reading some of Keys' papers and I find amazing what he found back in the 50-60's. Even the fact that not all saturated fatty acids are equal in raising cholesterol he found it back then. Admiring work. But it did caught my attention the fact that they didn't even mention LDL-c back then, but came up with the Keys equation. He's equation is used to predict total serum cholesterol change, right? I know that the major changes will be in LDL-c, since it's more modifiable through diet than HDL-c and also because its normal values are lower than LDL-c's, so the absolute impact on TC is also lower. However, I'd love to hear your thoughts when we talk about Keys' equation but do not mention that he's talking about TC and not LDL-c only.
Questions and Comments I have about this. Maybe you can answer on another podcast. It will take me a while to dig for the references if you can't find them.
1. I think Dr. Esselstyn, or Dr. T. Colin Campbell took the raw data from the 7 countries study and found that animal protein had a greater correlation with CVD than saturated fat. This would drastically change the course of suggestions to give people.
2. There is a statin study that shows people on statins eat over 14 percent more total fat than people that refuse statins. The name of the study has the word "gluttony" or "gluttonous" in it.
3. For example if someone has a mild case of Familial hypercholesterolemia and eats mostly a whole food non-animal diet. Is there Relative/Absolute risk data for example in vegan Seventh Day Aventist that shows good positive results of taking a statin?
4. There is another statin study of 15 years that shows a 40+ percent increase of all-cause mortality of statin takers versus non-statin users. Most of the statin studies are only 5 years. Any arguments or data about this?
5. What about the serious issue of "Coenzyme Q10 and Statin-Induced Mitochondrial Dysfunction" from taking statins?
Great conversation, Simon! ✌️ I have one question though, why are large LDLs called ”fluffy”?
It's a euphemism low carbers made up to make them seem benign or even healthy/ non atherogenic, when they're anything but. as stated in the video, Large LDLs could be 3 times the size whilst still be small enough to enter the artery wall. Also stated they carry more cholesterol so they deposit even more cholesterol compared to the smaller ones. People with famililiar hypercholesteroamia have a preponderance of these large "Fluffy" particles and still suffer advanced athersclerosis. Robert lustig is particularly fond of spreading this misinformation.
We know high blood cholesterol is not a good thing at the very least. Also, we all know that really when it comes to food. It's not the cholesterol in the food but the saturated fat in the food that is the problem. Listen, I'm nearly 70 years of age, and we knew that when I was in my early 20s and nothing has changed since then to prove the opposite.. Unfortunately the best thing you can do is pick your parents carefully. Failing that a diet such as recommended by the UK NHS or British Heart foundation is as good as any. Dont drink or smoke/keep to a healthy weight and keep active. Simples.
I've been doing a low-carb diet (and feeling great!), but my LDL has gone up more than I'm comfortable with. So, in researching how to lower it through my diet, I decided to check out this video. I was VERY disappointed with how the guest mocked people who don't agree with him (calling them conspiracy theorists, vaccine deniers, covid deniers, etc.). You may have great data, and you may have the right nutritional information, but I no longer trust what you have to say.
Stick to low carb high fat. Increased ldl is not dangerous. Small, damaged, oxidized ldl is the culprit. Insulin resistance, inflammation, and oxidation are what we need to avoid. Ldl in itself does not pose a risk.
Every add for heart disease you see now states that inflammation is the number one cause of heart disease. But they push a pill instead of a normal human diet. We are adapted to eating fat. If you take out fat you either have to eat more carbs or starve yourself which is unsustainable. Don't listen to the lies of the pill pushers that want you on their drugs so they can get rich.
@@Night_Crew_Artistmight as well measure Apob directly. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16949489/
dawn0731, I came here to the comments section to express the same sentiment. You beat me to and and said it better than I could have. In the beginning I kept zipping through trying to pass all of the praise of Ancel Benjamin Keys. A little praise of your idol is good however this went on forever. Non alcohol fatty liver disease under the age of 19, which was primarily if not only found in alcoholics, has been on the rise since the “Food Pyramid”. Carbs, sugar, fructose are all killing us slowly.
Anyway, I agree, start denigrating someone who has a different view or opinion and start losing the debate.
I’m 72yo, earlier this year my cholesterol was 220(the magic number for statins), Doctor subscribed, I said no way, cutout sugars, reduced carbs, lost 25 pounds, feeling great. Follow-up numbers to come but not concerned.
this video is full of BS
Essential carbohydrates,keep questioning, maybe pre diabetes and high fat the problem, eaten with the high carbs that created the pre diabetes in the first place Good LDL Good HDL Good VHDL
Bad oxidising LDL . Blood sugar levels spiking and never lowering for long periods with snacking etc
Keep trying , you will get there.
Important topic. There's a lot of cholesterol deniers out there.
Rightfully so. Just a scapegoat, at this point. Maga dose of refined PUFA and carb in the food supply. Cheap addictive toxic garbage, some of it with a “heart healthy” label. Biggest scam I can imagine, except now covid vax science gives it a run…
Yes for flood reason. Learn the nuance. Listen to dr lustig and grow
Denier is a derogatory term.
If you have nothing else to contribute than insults then you have already lost.
@@ramieskola7845 sorry dude. I can see how it could be taken as an insult but that wasn't the intention. I'd rather it inspire you to learn more about the subject. There's so much science out there on the dangers of high LDL and I've lost a lot friends and family because of it. So it's something I've studied a lot. But even I'm still learning. Science evolves. Not everything is known but a LOT is known.
@@meatflake
Apology accepted. What interweb doesn't need is more fights. We should avoid phrases that are used mostly for verbal aggression.
I've studied T2DM and the cholesterol debacle many years with varying intensity. Had my 1st (last?) heart attack ~2 years ago at age of 47. I was pushed for statins with an aggressive LDL goal. I confidently chose to not take any.
---+---
Couple of interesting facts
Atherosclerotic plaque forms only in arteries but never in veins ie. in the high pressure side but never in the low pressure side. Both have similar amounts of lipids (LDL, IDL, HDL, etc) flowing. Ergo lipids cannot be the Vera Causa* for atherosclerosis but high blood pressure is an interesting candidate.
In atherosclerotic plaque cholesterol is < 0.1% of the volume of the plaque. It is essentially just scar tissue.
----
*Vera Causa refers to the true or real cause of something.
How much in the way of oats, whole grains and other fiber foods (legumes for example) would our hunter gatherer ancestors have had access to? The levels of fiber Flanagan mentions are pretty high..
Good question. Interesting to me, no response.
Fossilised poo says VERY high lol
Even on a WFPB diet I don't come close.
And why do people look back to a time when life was brutal and short when they can walk to Aldi for veggies and beans ?
And how long did they live?
Speaking of heart disease: supplementation of DHA is associated with new onset atrial fibrillation which thus means increased risk of stroke. Please adress this since you yourself promote DHA supplements
If saturated fat is so bad then why is it present in human breast milk (about 50%).
Are you suggesting we look at the makeup of breast milk and assume that this is best for long term health. If we follow that logic we should be consuming only 2-3% of our calories from protein (the content in human breast milk).
Excellent presentation. As someone formerly working in clinical biochemistry, I've been gobsmacked by people on social media telling me that we know that saturated fats and high cholesterol are good for us, which is simply not true. This video has filled in some of the gaps in my knowledge about recent developments.
Regarding the sham knee surgery trial, I think it's important to note that after both the real surgery and the sham surgery, patients reported improvement in symptoms, but when tested using objective measures of knee function, neither group showed any improvement. That's one reason arthroscopic knee debridement is rarely, if ever, done these days. Placebos (and nocebos) only have subjective effects, according to all the evidence I've seen - see also the asthma study using fake inhalers, real inhalers and acupuncture (essentially a placebo) - all groups reported improvements in breathing, but the fake inhaler and acupuncture groups showed no objective improvement in FEV.
Superb conversation alan information and knowledge is A grade 👌
Good stuff that a lot of people really need to hear. I lost weight years ago on keto, though at the time it was called Atkins. Did it in the typical fashion, using a lot of eggs, butter, and red meat: bunless burgers, that sort of thing. I guess I'm lucky because, despite a family history of heart disease, even at 340 lbs I never saw an LDL over 110. Seven months on this lazy low carb diet and despite losing nearly 100 lbs and dropping my blood pressure, that 110 LDL got bumped to 140, still not as bad as a lot of folks have it, but bad enough that my doc, despite everything, was considering a statin. Long story short I had a friend who was from an Adventist pescatarian family and at his encouragement I dropped the eggs, butter, and red meat for nuts, seeds, oils, fish, and more leafy greens; ended up including small amounts of dairy, poultry, and soy as I went on as well, for variety's sake. Two months of this, same macronutrient distribution in terms of total fat, just switching SFA for more MUFA and PUFA -- I'm sure the increased fiber was a boon as well, though at the time I wasn't really cognizant of that -- my reduced blood pressure and all the other benefits I was seeing remained but that stubborn LDL also came down to 80; got a minor bump in my HDL as well which I hadn't seen before. I still do cycles of low carb pretty regularly, because the cognitive benefits are tremendous for me. I look back, though, and am grateful for this experience because I easily could have fallen into the denialist camp, given how well, ostensibly, I was doing on low carb.
after keto with sat fat emphasis i have moved to identical diet as yours to reach optimum health
Great one, Simon!
Tip for the podcast: perhaps a bit introduction of the guest's resume before getting into things?
Yes, I would get through his early rants better if his credentials were impressive.
That would make it even longer.
"it's not cholesterol that causes heart disease, it's inflammation!".
I put that statement in quote, as I hear it all the time from those who deny serum cholesterol and arterial plaque.
My understanding is that inflammation is linked to CVD not so much CHD.
Actually, I argue inflammation causes atherothrombosis, which is the thing that kills you. Great info about mitochondria of platelets and coronary heart disease show a platelet with poorly functioning mitochondria are 50 times more likely to apoptos, i.e. clot. Inflammation decreases mitochondrial function. So the mechanism is there that inflammation causes CHD. But I'm new to this research myself. Would like a civilized conversation if you ant to discuss.
@@weareherbivores😅
@@sherris7319It may be more Apo B that contributes to arterial plaque over 20-30 years depending on the invidual and other issues This in no way mitigates the contrubtion of metabolic contributors such as high blood pressure, insulin resistance, prediabetes, diabetes, etc., It’s just that it is not exclusive. You can still suffer soft plaque build up over 20-30 years even if nothing else applies. You cam still suffer a paralyzing store or major heart attack. The effect of Apo B is based on life time exposure. It has been compared to smoking daily dor 20-30 years starting when you are young. You may be one of the genetically blessed and live a ripe old age with no issues at all. If you are already genetically predisposed to heart disease, you may not so luckily esacape. Dr Gil Carvahlo addreeses this in a recent video he put out and in sone past videos.
Inflammation is relevant in the context of damaging the endothelial wall. A damaged arterial lining may be much easier for densely packed ApoB particles to breach and set up a plaque shop
"E = mC2 whether you like it or not" - indeed. The question is which side on this 'debate' is metaphorically denying it.
Look out for a court case coming up in the High Court in London on the 3rd of July. Dr. Malcolm Kendrick and Dr. Zoe Harcombe are going forward with the second part of their case against The Mail on Sunday.
In the words of Dr. Kendrick "This is a complex and highly time-consuming case, and there are many sensitive issues on the line."
It was reported in the BMJ last year:
The controversy over the benefits of statins is set to be aired in the High Court in London, in what the senior libel judge has described as the “most significant piece of defamation litigation that I have seen in a very long time.”
Mr Justice Nicklin made the comment in a preliminary ruling in a libel action by Malcolm Kendrick, a GP, and Zoe Harcombe, a researcher, author, and blogger with a PhD in public health nutrition, against Associated Newspapers, publishers of the Mail on Sunday and Mail Online, over articles that labelled them “statin deniers” whose “deadly propaganda” had endangered lives.
In the judgment Nicklin ordered that the case should be heard in two tranches: a preliminary trial of certain issues, followed by a main trial. “It is no exaggeration to say that the parameters of this litigation are very substantial,” he said.
Kendrick and Harcombe are suing over articles published in the print edition of the Mail on Sunday and in Mail Online in March 2019. A news story in the paper was headlined “Statin deniers are putting patients at risk says Minister.”
Of course the claim 'Statin deniers' is basically the same as 'Cholesterol Deniers'. Except of course the two above named doctors and others do not deny the existence of cholesterol, far from it. A huge problem for those who use such simplistic terms.
Well, don‘t read those articles. They are greatly misquoting people and spreading misinformation whatever „side“ you are on. This includes social media. It is each one’s personal decision to take or not to take a statin.
My opinion is to take one when you can not lower your risk enough through lifestyle changes.
Which side is metaphorically denying that E=mc^2?
So a libel case should not only demonstrate the 'cholesterol -> health complication but to also prove the veracity of E=mc^2? Both parties need a big war chest on this one. 😂
Libel cases are won with money. Two individuals are effectively arguing against Statin makers who have more money. I'd guess the Statin makers have more. I would have avoided this one.
If someone with vast money resources libel you he has the right to it, since money is might and might is right in the anglosphere. I'm not so sure about the process elsewhere.
@@ramieskola7845 Hi, thanks for the reply. I think they know what they are doing. It remains to be seen whether or not they are successful. I think you have a lack of knowledge about the contents of the action. It is not, I think, as complicated as you might have it. The trial is now over, they await the result.
We all due respect Dr Keys did ignored Lutkin. I don’t buy it; you are still ignoring it.
Dr Keys was paid off by special interest groups
They didn't have stents back then which delays deaths. Obesity exploded after the low fat snack craze that took off and left many of my classmates morbid obese. Aren't triglycerides a high risk?
A joy to listen to! Thank you both!
Simon, you ask excellent questions and is a good listener
Hasn't the consumption of sugar without its fiber, been shown to produce triglycerides and those are unhealthy for the heart?
Yes. But both excess sugar and excess fat being bad for you can be true at the same time.
The European consensus statement with primary author Ference admits that LDL-C is a poor measure of LDL particle number or concentration under certain very common conditions, namely insulin resistance (metabolic syndrome), diabetes, and high triglycerides: "Under most conditions, LDL-C concentration and LDL particle number are highly correlated, and therefore plasma LDL-C is a good surrogate for LDL particle concentration. However, in certain conditions (e.g. the metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and hypertriglyceridaemia), plasma LDL-C and LDL particle concentration can become discordant as a result of the predominance of small, dense cholesterol-poor LDL, and therefore plasma LDL-C may not accurately reflect LDL particle concentration or its effect on cardiovascular risk. Under these conditions, direct measurement of LDL particle number or apoB concentration (recognizing that each LDL particle contains a single apoB molecule) may more accurately reflect the causal effect of LDL on ASCVD. In this Consensus Statement, we assess the evidence that LDL causes ASCVD by critically appraising the clinical evidence, with the understanding that the majority of clinical studies have used LDL-C as an estimate of LDL concentration." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5837225/ Studies have found that the concentration of small dense LDL particles is correlated with adverse atherosclerotic events whereas the concentration of large buoyant LDL particles is not correlated with adverse events. Watch this lecture and check the references it illustrates, in particular starting here: th-cam.com/video/dOzgrhG0xKI/w-d-xo.html "Dr. David Diamond: Should Low Carbohydrate Diet Guidelines Include Concerns Over LDL Cholesterol?" In other parts of his lecture, Dr. Diamond explains the important role of the LDL particle in immunity and reducing all-cause mortality (not just CVD mortality) in the aged population.
Studies have shown that once you account for apoB, LDL particle size doesn't mean anything. High apoB is causal
Dr. Flanagan (PhD) is a nutritionist who does not support a low carb lifestyle. It seems (to me) that he views data through that lens to support his orthodoxy. Other researchers have reviewed the same data and support a different analysis. He lost me when he glossed over the "French Paradox" by explaining the same data was present in other cohorts. Other researchers have said that the inclusion of the French data (and others) would have made it impossible for Keyes to support his hypothesis so it was excluded. So pick your expert and go with that, there is no definitive answer from Dr. Flanagan, only his opinion. He is just another voice on TH-cam, no better or worse than those "deniers".
How do you understand the Eskimo data that shows low rates of heart disease even though they consume an extremely high fat diet?
that was one of the countries that was left out of "Keys' 20 Country Study."
Or Hong Kong: longest living with highest consumption of animal products per capita
@@AliceFarmer-bg4dwFrenchman here. People from the northern part of France who cook everything in butter have more heart attacks than southerners who use olive oil. Incidentally, the so called French paradox has been explained : French doctors underreported cvd.
@@defeqel6537Not true. The older generation is heavy on plants. But the younger generation have switched to more meat.
@@AliceFarmer-bg4dwMasai have heart disease.
One of the arguments against LDL is that liver throttles the amount cholesterol it produces as a function of amount of dietary cholesterol. There fore the claim is that the cholesterol in blood will balanced by the liver. Although my own experience has shown that when I eliminate animal my cholesterol changes dramatically ie from 255 to 178.
@1:38 False. Keys did not 'uncover the link between diet, blood cholesterol and heart disease'. It is a hypothesis proposed by John Gofman decade earlier.
Do a debate with Dr Ken berry or Dr cywes
Dr Berry is the best. He outsmarts these guys
completely fascinating. there's so many issues that emerge in post war but increased consumption of animal fats seems so obviously a major story. but heart disease is only one story. cancer is the other one and metabolic disorders.
Except Meat wasn’t new to the food supply. Refined PUFAs is new. That is what should be obvious.
Re: Post WW2 _"increased consumption of animal fats"!_
In this universe it is the astronomical skyrocketing of seed oil consumption that is the "fat"-mammoth in the room surely?
Consumption of animal fats has actually decreased I'm sure...... if for no other reason that its being replaced by the seed oils. I grew up in the 50's in UK and we never heard of a seed oil until Mazola appeared in the 60's
Also the extraction of fat from (lo-fat & no-fat) dairy products has been MASSIVE.
When I was a boy we paid extra to get gold-top, high-fat Jersey milk....... skimmed-milk was unknown.
Personally i think these lads are "establishment-believers" more than anything else and they are too young & fit to have hit the metabolic wall of decades of high-carb consumption.
These questions are _far_ from settled. There are very few open minds on either side and these lads betray their personal tribalism in referring to "decades of research" type of comments (appeal to established authority) and saying how hard it is to listen to oppenents . (antipathy)
@@wilts43
What do you think is so bad about seed oils?
The Japanese have used sesame seed oils for centuries and the leading cause of death is cancer, not heart disease.
There also have been countless studies testing the concerns that are brought up about seed oils, might it be inflammation or cardiovascular risk with the result of both decreases in inflammation and cardiovascular risk.
I‘m all for questioning.
Without that science would stand still. But those questions have been answered.
There has been a time when the oils were partly hydrogenated and used to have trans fats. Maybe that‘s where this rumor has it’s origin?
What you are also forgetting that seed oils don‘t have to be industrial oils at all. I don‘t use refined ones. They are tasteless. I use always cold pressed.
Besides, deep frying is always unhealthy no matter what fat you use.
The food industry always jumps onto trends. If the trend is low fat there are low fat products to „cheat“ and still have their favorite foods instead. What is in there instead does not matter to the consumer.
That the initial thought of lowering the fat content of the diet was reduction of total calories not replacing fat with sugar seems to have been forgotten here.
And today since low carb is trending we have all these fancy low carb products like keto dougnuts, low carb pizza etc that mimic the foods you can not have on low carb, but are far from healthy.
The meat and dairy industry is rarely target of criticism when nutrition is talked about, although it is the reason why more and more Pathogenese become antibiotic resistant when the animals are fed daily with antibiotics. Also the hormone use in raising those animals and the fact these remain in the meat or milk.
The meat from a healthy animal on a farm that is advertised is a big fat lie most of the times.
So yes please don‘t fall for the lies of the food industry, but do not just find a excuse why the foods you like to eat should be healthy. If you want to go back in time and eat like then you would even have to cut back on saturated fat. Per capita meat consumption has never been as high as in current times. The problem is that people did not follow the advice given. We are far away from the 10% of dietary saturated fat. And calorie consumption skyrocketed while caloric needs declined due to sedentary lifestyle.
Sure, ancel keys contributed much, but he was wrong
extremely wrong, and fraud
Any thoughts on Dr. Mason's claim about the danger of seed oil is in their phytosterol content? He claimed that plant stannol are the cause of CHD.
Excellent. Thank you for sharing your thoughts
Can you explain why so many people that live into their 90s and 100s have high LDL and total cholesterol? Why did you live this out of the equation?
So many people that live into their 90s and 100s also smoke and have hypertension, it does not negate the evidence we have for those risk factors.
You would be shocked to find that not only does a lack of good government regulation prevent good health outcomes, bad government regulations and support drive poor health outcomes.
Inflation causes short term thinking by taxing all savings and subsidizing all spending.
Regulations prevent you and I from forming whole food health insurance cooperatives.
As much as tobacco is taxed it is also subsidized and so are other aspects of agriculture we don't want to encourage.
Also, bad choices are made worse as with the "wholesome meat act" which by regulations you might think sound nice made smaller and more sanitary meat processing effectively illegal. Similarly, milk is mixed in great vats to conform with regulations.
As with health, or any complex system it's hard to improve on natural regulatory phenomenon in the liberal/free-market economy
Ooookkk. I agree with the Ancel Keys portion. However, as the podcast got longer, your guest (specifically when talking about anti-statin rhetoric), he just paints a very wide brush as if people are black or white. Got a bit judgmental for my taste. I believe in vaccines, got all the covid vax available for me… but, I do not deny that people had experienced side effects.
I was wary about statins when my husband started taking it. 3 months into it he experienced horrible side effects from it. The hesitation on statins does not make me one of those conspiracy theorists. My problem with BIG pharma is when making things not affordable for people (i.e.Shrekeli, Insulin pricing issues). On top of that, you have the opioid issue thanks to some pharmaceutical companies.
Way too much focus on LDL debate and way too little focus on all the other known risk factors for CVD. Please take the blinders off if you want to help people avoid CVD.
There is not as much denial regarding other risk factors online compared to LDL. Very few people contest that smoking, hypertension, diabetes, and obesity increased risk of heart disease. Regardless, these topics are discussed on this channel as well.
This conversation reeks of bias. It is too bad. This had the potential to be a better scientific presentation. Demonizing a group such as the “Low carb” group is not a scientific approach. Take away the bias add in the randomized controlled studies and tease out the problem is what is needed. We live in a time of rising rates of diabetes, of heart disease, of cancer, of obesity, of healthcare costs. Let's focus on the problem and the solutions. Any discussion that does not present the negatives is not scientific.
I find a grain of truth in all of these discussions. Eating whole foods is part of the answer. Eating a diet that has kept our species healthy for millennia is also something we should return to. Look at stable isotope analysis of the bones of our ancestors. That is an undeniable science. Mankind has changed the food we eat in the pursuit of convenience, the pursuit of how to make things that have a longer shelf life, and the longing for the best tasting. All of these are admirable but are all of those considerations healthy? If microbes won't eat it, if it won't mold if it can remain on a shelf indefinitely… shouldn't we maybe look closer to see if what we have done is healthy? Farmers have learned how to make animals fat and sick, there is ample history behind that. Coincidentally, eating the same foods as those that make animals sick and following the same or similar healthcare practices in people seems to have caused the same obesity and ill health.
It's not us against them. Hiding the results of studies is not appropriate, researchers that won't include their names when publishing results is a practice that is not appropriate and publishing results in obscure foreign publications is also deceptive.
This is a complicated matter that should be approached openly and honestly and not purely driven by where the next round of research funding will come from.
I'm just here to read the comments of all the zealots defending high cholesterol lol. Thanks for all the work you're doing in trying to educate the masses and hopefuly you get some of them back on track!
So you are calling everyone with a dissenting opinion as zealots? You are being ridiculous. If you can't stay in the debate stay out then.
Alan and Simon are two young men who are absolutely sincere and really believe their message. However, they really misrepresented the low carb movement and the likes of Gary Taubes. As an engineer, I couldn't even make sense of Alan's defence of the 7 Nation Study. If the beautiful straight line result vanishes when all 22 countries are included, then the original study has a fatal problem. Right now, there is a research project looking people who do not have familial hypercholesterolemia but who have very low Triglycerides, high HDL and an LDL so high it is in the top 0.1% of the population. (an LDL average of 250 mg/dL or 6.5 mmol/L) The final results should be out any month,, but the initial data shows that after an average of 4.4 years, most have zero plaque build-up with a CT angiogram. None of the 100 are in a medium or high risk category. The average age is about 55. If the hypothesis that LDL is causal for Atherosclerosis is an unarguable fact, then these results would be impossible. Alan, stop looking for data to prove your beliefs. Start looking for data to disprove them, and don't try and shut down contrary argument on the basis that "it will kill people". Why have all the thousands cholesterol studies involving 20 million people never tested this group of people?
I’m going to have Gary Taubes’s on. I find his position almost impossible to hold
Gary comes from investigating scientific fraud in areas like Physics. In Physics, a hypothesis is disproven by any amount of significant error, no matter how small. Newton's Laws of Motion are correct on Earth to probably over 8 decimal places. However, it is slightly wrong when analysing the orbit of Mercury, so Newtons Laws are incorrect. Good scientists love to see their beliefs challenged because that is when breakthroughs become possible. In medical research, doctors are over the moon with a 90% correlation between their hypothesis and data. I understand it, but it is crap science. Heart Disease was quite rare in the US around 1900., but the LDL was the same. If you can find at least one case where very high LDL over a long period is combined with no evidence of arterial plaques, then that would be very interesting - it would suggest that maybe LDL is not on its own causal. Is there one such case in the history of medicine? What if the current study by Professor Mathew Budoff of the Lundquist Institute (not a low carb advocate) finds in a few months zero change in the CT angiogram scores of 100 test subjects after 1 year with LDL over 190 mg/dl? Based on preliminary data, it is looking possible. It would be fascinating.@@TheProofWithSimonHill
On statins and placebo/nocebo effect, let me just say that even Dayspring (who probably understands their mechanism better than anyone) says he cant tolerate them...
I get that they work; I wish I could tolerate them because I do understand the role of apo b.
Alas, I need to focus on exercise and WFPB diet
Unsaturated fats are essentially monomers. Before they found industrial scale use in food they had a role in paint setting and drying by oxygen polymerisation. It's likely once in the body they undergo the same oxidation process especially in high oxygen concentrations and under pressure ie in arteries. Having saturated fat in the diet which are largely oxidation stable would mitigate this. I would never advocate a diet pushed at high unsaturated fats and especially polyunsaturated fay's. It would be like eating reactive monomer. Leave the top of a bottle of fish oil for a week or two in a dark cupboard. Where it meets the atmosphere you will find a polymeric cross linked cap forms. It's obvious a blend of oil types is beneficial based on a balanced diet
At 58:00 Dr Alan Flanagan makes the claim that Dr Aseem Malhotra and others are "deliberately misleading people". I am curious what the evidence for this position is? Aside from the obvious difference in opinion on the scientific evidence, is there some evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance? Does he have some conflicts of interest? Is there evidence to suggest he does not have the best interests of his patients and the general public in mind?
zero evidence that Malhotra and others are "deliberately misleading people" or engaging in wrongdoing, malfeasance, etc.
but according to this AF guy, those that disagree with him are revisionist, evangelical, blind, dogmatic, conspiracy theorists who are "devoid of intellectual honesty and epistemic humility."
First saw you, Simon, on a RR podcast and was very well informed at exit. Since then I enrolled in a Nutrition and Wellness course at Cornell. It is like all other things, what you make of it. But these days when I hear things about say APO-B counts and markers at least Inhave a reference to what this means in the arteries. Receptors that are revealed through arterial stress that attract Low Density Lipids who are in turn set upon by the immune system which is captured in the fat and then collects blood cells eventually. The atherosclerosis module was my favorite. And I was a bit wary that Cornell was going to tear down my plant based palace. Only slightly disappointed that Professor Levitsky downplayed the reversal of CHD with how extremely difficult the diet is...(because of the cultural abnormality). The heart disease module was supposed to be 3rd but was last for me. Never mentioned was Dr Esselstyn bit je did give props to Dr Ornish for reversing CHD though I think Dr Esselstyn and Campbell showed evidence first and was a Cornell grad.❤❤
Sounds like you have it all figured out, no need for further critical questioning.case closed.
The claim is that in the original study contained 20 countries that were tracked and to prove a point only seven countries were included to press a point when otherwise the study would have been inconclusive.
Sorry but Ancel Keys was a fraud. You give him too much credit.@@TheProofWithSimonHill
I believe in balance diet and limited sugar.
Heart attacks were a non-factor in 1930. By 1955 they were a crisis. What changed? Was it increased meat consumption, or skyrocketing rates of cigarette smoking? Think about it.
it is directly linked to the Standard American diet. The revolution of low fat, high carb, ultra processed foods, high sugar. There was no such thing as adolescents with fattly livers until the 1990s. Hmm I wonder why. It is not because they are eating red meat.
@@jennysiepka9900 The SAD came later. In the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's, Americans were eating lots of meat, chicken and eggs, and not much junk. Obesity was not a problem. Cigarettes and polluted air were causing heart attacks.
The SAD high-carb, low-fat diet really didn't get going until the 1980's, when eggs were blamed for high cholesterol and heart attacks, fat became a "four letter word," and obesity skyrocketed.
So in summary, in the 60's, 70's and into the early 80's was smoking, the from the mid-80's to today it is our shit SAD diet.
And I am AMAZED at the percentage of women who are actually scared to eat red meat.
I’m sorry, but that is just not true. I come from a German family. So does my mother in law. Everybody dead in their fifties , at the latest sixties, from heart attack or stroke!
cigarette smoking and SUGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
would love to see this guy on with Ken Berry:)
Ken Berry is much smarter and I believe Ken Berry when it comes to saturated fat, cholesterol, carbohydrates, and meat.
@4:15 Ancell Keys is a great scientist because great powers of money and politics colluded with him and Low carb community is devoid of intellectual honesty? Really? You are giving scientific advice to someone?
We're done here. This podcast started with hero worship and bigotry against the dissidents I have no expectation that this is going to get any better.
This guy will be a hero for solving the problems of the 1960s.
I need to address todays issues.
For some people it may be worth rolling the dice. Living with active autoimmune diseases that are non-responsive to medications, often leaves you on deaths doorstep. If a keto/carnivore diet improves this situation, it may just be worth the potential heart disease risk.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill would you be able to point me in the direction of resources to support this kind of diet. The autoimmune journey can be especially trying for a few of us! Thanks Simon
@@Samuel-bu7xr salmon, mackerel, nuts, avocados, olive oil instead of red meat, bacon, butter...
would love to see Peter Attia on the show !
I‘m astonished that Keys already found out about the different effects of chain length.
I have no doubt in his knowledge but I don’t think he understands much about some people actually hearing him. It’s truly difficult to hear someone talking for so long without a break in between. This is the problem with majority of people; they cannot stop. I know it’s extremely difficult but I’m sure there must be a solution because after all we want to be heard…especially someone who obviously is so intelligent!
Love the episode I’m a big fan of the two of you.
Just wondering if your doing anymore episodes with Drew?
Loved this!
Let me remind him that the side effect study on statin he mentioned he never provided the audience with some basic details like the size of the study and who actually paid for the study and which statins were included and at what dose. As someone who's trying to make a point, he's very stingy on substance and very generous in shooting down the other side. Dr Alan Flanagan isn't very convincing in his criticisms and even his defense of Ancel keyes is quite weak and lacking in substance but full of unsupported praise. I wish he could come back and do a point by point rebuttal of a very strong cardiologist who has presented a well substantiated debunk of Ancel keyes theories.
Why didnt you name that cardiologist??
@@888jucu If you indist. There's a few of them who are quite open about about their stance on Ancel keyes and his fraudulent history. Dr Aseem Malhorta is one of them and he has published a few studies himself. th-cam.com/video/x3BzgZqFuZc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=WT8gsrOD8nHDPmBL
@@888jucu Dr Asseem Malhorrta. th-cam.com/video/x3BzgZqFuZc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=WT8gsrOD8nHDPmBL
@@888jucuIt's funny. Any of my replies is being deleted. Am i being censored for mentioning cardiologists who disagree with this presentation ?
@@bobmorane4926 No idea but if u are trying to attach a link etc then normally these messages are deleted so if indeed u have been trying to attach a link just drop the link from the message 👍
But we don’t need to eat preformed cholesterol. Our liver makes our own cholesterol from Acetyl-CoA which is made from any of the 3 marcos.
When we eat cholesterol containing foods we’re just eating cooked cholesterol that we don’t need and that likely causes problems long term.
People need to study physiology and biochemistry.
B12 is the only thing we can’t get from eating only plant foods and it can be argued why getting it from a supplement is better than from animal foods. Plus b12 deficiency usually takes a long time to occur. And it doesn’t has to be taken daily. And even people that consume meat have been shown to have b12 deficiency. Because of their intrinsic factor.
All amino acids can be obtained. Retinol is easily converted from beta carotene.
It's actually not E = mc²
It's actually E² = (mc²)² + (pc)²
I missed the part where he showed the proof of causation. Has anyone got the timestamp or a reference?
@@rondoallegro3342 Yes. Thanks. It was a rhetorical question.
apoB is causal
@@Justin-wj4yc That is BS. It has never been proven and cannot be. Correlation is not proof of causation. It is a multi variable problem.
@@Billy97ify Nope. They've found in the last few years that, if you account for apoB, LDL cholesterol, LDL particle size, non-HDL-C, or triglycerides don't mean anything. They were an indirect measure of apoB. Obesity & refined carbs raise apoB. When you have too much apoB, the body can't clear it, and it becomes chemically modified and causes atherosclerosis. Why does every unique way of decreasing apoB work? Because apoB is causal. The organizations are slowly coming around, e.g., the European Society of Cardiology recently admitted apoB is much more accurate than LDL-C, because LDL-C can signal high apoB.
@@Justin-wj4yc You would have to show the proof of that. The Lancet study I looked at was garbage.
Ancel Keys cherry picked his data. Refined oils, flours, sugars and hydrogenated fats is what causes a lot of poor health. 4 oz of meat is not a problem, but big fatty cuts along with fried foods and alcohol or soft drinks is. The sugar on meat is more dangerour than meat alone. Corn/Soy fed beef has more omega 6 fats and the cattle are as healthy as grass fed, grass finished with has more omega 3 fats.
I switched to whole foods, plant based, no sugar, no oil, no salt in Nov 2020 to reverse health problems. Without the processed foods I don't think I would ever had to give up meat. I am 67 now. Eating instant mashed potatoes and sweet potatoes at my moms retirement home and salted roasted almonds (coated in oil) led to a decline in health and memory. No idea of what fat was in the potatoes.
Keys never advocated for any of the things you claim. He pushed the Mediterranean diet. Fruit, vegetable, legumes, olive oil, fish, fowl, egg and dairy.
@@markaguilera493 I did not say he avocated for it. Should have put the other comments in seperate paragraph.
Just what we ended up with big ag and marketing. If animal fats are bad, the hydrogenated oil where somehow supposed to be better. Food Pyramid is a result of multipled factors, big ag, Ancel Keys?
the big cuts of meat of not unhealthy or dangerous
@@markfox5349 big cuts of meat cause kidney damage in older adults and raise cholesterol in everyone. Kids now show signs of artial damage that eventually becomes atherosclerosis. Meat and dairy lobbly is making us sick. Excess intramyocellar lipids (fat inside the muscle and liver cells) cause insulin resistance (major cause of obesity) and type II diabetes. Grass fed beef is healthier, but over eating over prolonged periods is unhealthy. Excess meat consumption causes insulin spikes eventually, which causes obesity and later type II diabetes when the insulin is no longer able to push glucose into the cells, resulting in high blood sugar. High levels of cholesterol and sugar cause kidney damage. So the more meat you eat the sooner you'll have to give up alchol, sugar, bread, etc..
As someone who's reciewed these studies but followed these people you mentioned, i was very confused. Thank you for liatening the methodology. One thing i dont think you mentioned was glycocalyx and its invovlement in the protective mechanism against oxidized LDL particles cause atherosclerosis. Also, Id love your take on the main cause of mortality for heart disease, atherothrombosis, and what the research shows with platelet mitochondria health. Finally, arebthere any studies if blood chilesterol levels comboned with endothelial function tests?
I don't think that anyone says that LDL levels are completely irrelevant. I mean, if all you know about someone is that their LDL level is high, you can conclude that they have a higher risk of heart disease. But if you ALSO know their HDL and triglyceride levels, you will know their TC/HDL and TG/HDL ratios, and these will will give you a much more accurate -- and perhaps quite different -- picture. Sound about right?
another great interview! thank you
So to be clear, Keys did not have a measure of Hdl versus ldl and their respective impact on cardiac health? Is one more correlated to cardiac health than the other?
Hi.
Recall Robert Ostfeld discuss a journal article on the topic. Not so much the amount of HDL but how well they attend to their assigned task. Essentially, it ain’t the power in numbers diatribe postulated over the years…until the next paper. Heard the discussion on YT.
How come heart disease is still so high with the horrible diet we all eat. Statins don't appear to have made much different.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill CVD mortality/death numbers keep going up 1% annually since 2010 although massive use of statins.
They made a difference to profits 😮😮😮😮
@@portfoliow The population is growing and getting older. However the rate of heart disease has been in a downtrend since 1990. Most deaths from CVD are in poorer countries where access to modern medicine is spotty or nonexistent.
Bro quoted Neil Tyson and then expects us to take the rest seriously 🤣
Well, I have to say that Dr. Flanagan's flippant dismissive attitude towards anyone that does not share his views is disappointing . I was put on Statins because my Doctor said I had high cholesterol and needed a statin. This was before there were computers and internet so I was unaware that there could be side effects. And yet I most definitely had side effects, which I was afraid to report because I didn't want to look like I was weak. However, I just could not live with these side effects so I discontinued the statins. I didn't even realize there were other statins that might not have the same effects. The clinic I went to had new doctors coming in every six months so there was little to none of the personal care one would hope for. Small remote communities can be like that. So the bottom line is the side effects are very real and not a product of internet conspiracy, there was no internet. Al Gore hadn't invented it yet.(joke)
I have to agree with you. He paints with a very broad brush and doesn't like other colors.
Excellent point. I've refused statin recommendations from my doctor more times than Peter denied Christ.
Interesting that Dr. Flanagan cannot answer the question about WHY Acel Keys cherrypicked seven countries out of 22. His answer is something like 'no need to include the other countries, the seven countries had enough information to prove the point Ancel Keys wanted to make' (!)
I have followed a plant based diet for several years because my ldl cholesterol was slightly elevated - 220- but it did not decrease those levels and what's more I got osteoporosis because the diet was too low in protein and many other minerals and vitamins precious for bone health...
And I listened to the first 15 minutes of this video without knowing what either of these two are trying to say. I guess I'm too stupid to understand it