I personally don't agree with the fact that he has had too much groundwork. Maybe too much of the same and not varied enough. The fact that steering is a problem means he has probably never been ground driven, or anything with long reins. And I myself never had a problem with groundwork teaching an unsure horse to stand still, so I think it has more to do with the type of groundwork done than the groundwork itself.
same, I do tons of groundwork (pretty much foal up to 3 year old) but most of it is some type of movement rather than standing still. My horses also flex at the neck only, because they're waiting for a leg cue to make them move.
Agree 100%. I think too much lungeing maybe, but long lining as you all said, correctly done, is riding from the ground. You can definitely do too much of the wrong kind of ground work, but there isn’t much you cannot do from the ground with long lines. I ride dressage, and ground work is a critical part of classical training all the way from unbacked horses to Grand Prix and beyond.
LOVE the comment about non-existent steering in the round pen! I've always liked a rectangular arena - even a small one - as I can work both straight and circular with ease. The ability to move _straight_ is very important in order to get useful steering! Lots of the ponies I rehabbed years ago had similar issues to Maverick - flexing like a rubber band but with a hard-to-find forward button. It's my belief they were overly desensitised to 'stuff', but never taught to be ridden forward (as opposed to being merely 'sat upon') with confidence and impulsion, and their development was thus stalled in a permanently-puzzled, only partially-developed state. They had never really got the 'point' of the human-horse relationship, and merely tolerated us, so far but no further. The concept of desensitising, and the horse standing still if unsure, is fine at the very _beginning_ of breaking, when a horse needs to start building its confidence, but the moment that 'not fleeing from scary stuff' is established, we must begin to work on 'move forward steadily when instructed, even past scary stuff', as 'forward' when instructed is the foundation of a higher education.
I've started a lot of horses in my career. No drama or histrionics. But I have to say that this went a lot smoother than some first rides I've witnessed where fear and domination were the primary forces. Good job Robert on keeping the calm while making progress.
It is my opinion that when you put pressure on an animal during training you might get faster progress but it increases stress.....when you stress out horses......well it can bring dramatic results. I have always thought of training as a kind of vocabulary you are trying to develop with a particular animal........a conversation of sorts.
Thankyou! You make a valid point. The older I get , the more inclined I am to do too much on the ground. For me, now is the time to ask my trainer to start ,and progress my next horse to a level that is safe and ready to ride out, or compete. He looks a nice horse, and Robert is ironing out these little issues with his calm ,clear riding.
I rode a horse a few years ago on trails. He was one that was flexed while standing still many, many times. Bebopping along the trail, I discovered that he didn't know how to have his feet follow his head and leg meant nothing to him. Turned his head to avoid a tree...no turn hit it with his shoulder. He wasn't bad he just didn't have any steering.
I appreciate your comments about doing too much ground work before riding. The stand still and bend movement is not appropriate for English horses. Also, the turn and face idea makes working a horse in hand very difficult as the animal always want to turn the haunches away without moving the front end. Trying to teach over fence work is difficult when the horse only knows how to jack knife the shoulder outward and thus any hand movement to correct the shoulder results in a crooked line to the fence. I love your philosophy. Keep up the good work.
I guess it depends on the training, mine all stand still and bend because they wait for a leg cue to move. I don't want them always following their nose or moving their back ends until I tell them.
Thanks! This makes me feel better about the kind of ground work I’m doing with my yearling. I have no round pen either, nor do I want one! Ground driving, respecting my space, and patience when standing, has been the foundation of her training so far. She’s now 18 months. We ground drive all over the place. Into the woods, into flocks of grazing geese, along the road, through flowing creeks, etc. The focus is on moving forward when asked, turning to pressure, stopping promptly, backing to pressure, and standing when asked for however long I ask. I do some small amount of longeing in circles but that gets boring fast. (Glad I did some of that because the first lope wearing a surcingle/girth was spicy!) I’ve done practically zero desensitization except for ropes all over her, around feet and whatnot. Oh, and I had her approach then carry a Mylar balloon we saw in a field. I focus some on teaching correct lateral movement. I want her to cross her front feet, plant one hind foot and move with cadence when I step into her space as a cue for turns on haunches. I want her to understand that pressure behind the girth means move your hip. She’s starting to learn to side pass with cues from the ground. When she halts she’s learning to stop square. All these things will be useful to her when ridden. There’s always something to learn or some new part of the world to see… too much to learn to get stuck in a holding pattern. I *think* she’ll be pretty easy to ride in 6 months. I guess I’ll see!
I wholeheartedly agree with the advice in this video. Once again, you’ve shared an experience similar to one of my own. On my Vet’s orders, I wasn’t allowed to put any tack on my horse for 3 months. I was instructed to lunge and fill in the time with ground work. Once I got back on, my mare had virtually no steering and was very disobedient to the leg aids. A lack of balance made her feel very insecure and that insecurity caused some scary behaviors such as bucking, kicking out, and threatening to rear.
This was very interesting . I was expecting some bad acting only to see the horse do very well . Maverick is just learning and did what the trainer asked after he processed what he wanted . I would think using long lines and teach steering from the ground prior to mounting would greatly assist with such an issue . I have experienced what Mr Anderson is saying here with the horse having trouble going forward and steering where the groundwork was over extended .
I completely agree with you. I started my mustang and I noticed right away that I had to stop the desensitizing. My mare just didn’t care about the tools. Including the whip. Not good. Also don’t teach especially the mustangs groundwork that makes no sense when you want to ride them. Like opening a gate and run to the owner. You seriously want your mustang to run after opening a gate? I have seen that in real.
Long reining over various terrain is also good to getting a horse to move forward and confidently while learning to listen to handler. Backing a horse after long reining then presents few problems...
@@michelleedwards2207 I loved long reining and its results! I used to go one step further, when I was rehabbing ponies, and break them to harness. Even if they only dragged a lightweight harrow around the sand school, or pulled the manure cart across the pasture, they learnt to go forward _with purpose_ as well as confidence, while 'stuff' was happening around them.
Parelli method trainers are notorious for teaching horses to stop when unsure about anything. Maybe it's safer, idk, but it's very hard to retrain them to work through fear/unsureness. I've also found some horses that are smart enough to fake the fear and stop to get out of work.
You’re too worried about steering. It’s not a car. He is not going to run into the wall. Get the horse to move out walk, trot and canter. Work on the one rein stop. If he flexes, you should be ok. And yes, I’d definitely use a round pen for the first few rides. Kicking is not a good way to create impulsion. You can use a crop like a jockey does to get forward. The trainer should have finished this horse out, but he certainly prepared him well.
You always want training to be boring and predictable. Thankfully this one stayed boring but was not predictable. There was no blow up only because the horse did not want to. If it had wanted to we didn't have much to work with.
The horse hasnt been taught to disengage front and back or how to turn. Hes lovely and soft theres been steps missed along the way. Its not the horse has done too much groundwork it just hasnt been the right things. Ours have to deal with horses passing them at a gallop and pacers flying up behind and past them. Thats on their 5th or 6th ride
@@timandersonhorsetraining That’s a pity that it does not work for you. I have a trainer friend who has clients use it so that he can give training sessions at distance via their mobile phones or they can record their riding.
I personally don't agree with the fact that he has had too much groundwork. Maybe too much of the same and not varied enough. The fact that steering is a problem means he has probably never been ground driven, or anything with long reins. And I myself never had a problem with groundwork teaching an unsure horse to stand still, so I think it has more to do with the type of groundwork done than the groundwork itself.
same, I do tons of groundwork (pretty much foal up to 3 year old) but most of it is some type of movement rather than standing still. My horses also flex at the neck only, because they're waiting for a leg cue to make them move.
Agree 100%. I think too much lungeing maybe, but long lining as you all said, correctly done, is riding from the ground. You can definitely do too much of the wrong kind of ground work, but there isn’t much you cannot do from the ground with long lines. I ride dressage, and ground work is a critical part of classical training all the way from unbacked horses to Grand Prix and beyond.
LOVE the comment about non-existent steering in the round pen!
I've always liked a rectangular arena - even a small one - as I can work both straight and circular with ease. The ability to move _straight_ is very important in order to get useful steering!
Lots of the ponies I rehabbed years ago had similar issues to Maverick - flexing like a rubber band but with a hard-to-find forward button.
It's my belief they were overly desensitised to 'stuff', but never taught to be ridden forward (as opposed to being merely 'sat upon') with confidence and impulsion, and their development was thus stalled in a permanently-puzzled, only partially-developed state. They had never really got the 'point' of the human-horse relationship, and merely tolerated us, so far but no further.
The concept of desensitising, and the horse standing still if unsure, is fine at the very _beginning_ of breaking, when a horse needs to start building its confidence, but the moment that 'not fleeing from scary stuff' is established, we must begin to work on 'move forward steadily when instructed, even past scary stuff', as 'forward' when instructed is the foundation of a higher education.
Yes everything you said is true.
He seems to be a good and willing horse because he's had a lot of ground work :)
I've started a lot of horses in my career. No drama or histrionics. But I have to say that this went a lot smoother than some first rides I've witnessed where fear and domination were the primary forces. Good job Robert on keeping the calm while making progress.
It is my opinion that when you put pressure on an animal during training you might get faster progress but it increases stress.....when you stress out horses......well it can bring dramatic results. I have always thought of training as a kind of vocabulary you are trying to develop with a particular animal........a conversation of sorts.
Nice work Robert
🏆Robert🏆
Looking forward to seeing Maverick’s progress. Beautiful horse.
Great educational resource thanks Tim. Robert Great demonstrating how to use techniques and staying calm ❤❤ ❤
Great job, Robert 👍😊
Thankyou! You make a valid point. The older I get , the more inclined I am to do too much on the ground. For me, now is the time to ask my trainer to start ,and progress my next horse to a level that is safe and ready to ride out, or compete. He looks a nice horse, and Robert is ironing out these little issues with his calm ,clear riding.
Good morning all. Good job Robert. Thank you Tim & Melinda for videos.
Was never aware of this issue thank you for bring up all these little details thar turn into major
Thank you 😊
I rode a horse a few years ago on trails. He was one that was flexed while standing still many, many times.
Bebopping along the trail, I discovered that he didn't know how to have his feet follow his head and leg meant nothing to him. Turned his head to avoid a tree...no turn hit it with his shoulder. He wasn't bad he just didn't have any steering.
I appreciate your comments about doing too much ground work before riding. The stand still and bend movement is not appropriate for English horses. Also, the turn and face idea makes working a horse in hand very difficult as the animal always want to turn the haunches away without moving the front end. Trying to teach over fence work is difficult when the horse only knows how to jack knife the shoulder outward and thus any hand movement to correct the shoulder results in a crooked line to the fence. I love your philosophy. Keep up the good work.
I guess it depends on the training, mine all stand still and bend because they wait for a leg cue to move. I don't want them always following their nose or moving their back ends until I tell them.
Great job!
Excellent - I learned a lot from this
Kitty-bomb! 0:19
Thanks! This makes me feel better about the kind of ground work I’m doing with my yearling.
I have no round pen either, nor do I want one! Ground driving, respecting my space, and patience when standing, has been the foundation of her training so far. She’s now 18 months. We ground drive all over the place. Into the woods, into flocks of grazing geese, along the road, through flowing creeks, etc. The focus is on moving forward when asked, turning to pressure, stopping promptly, backing to pressure, and standing when asked for however long I ask.
I do some small amount of longeing in circles but that gets boring fast. (Glad I did some of that because the first lope wearing a surcingle/girth was spicy!) I’ve done practically zero desensitization except for ropes all over her, around feet and whatnot. Oh, and I had her approach then carry a Mylar balloon we saw in a field.
I focus some on teaching correct lateral movement. I want her to cross her front feet, plant one hind foot and move with cadence when I step into her space as a cue for turns on haunches. I want her to understand that pressure behind the girth means move your hip. She’s starting to learn to side pass with cues from the ground. When she halts she’s learning to stop square. All these things will be useful to her when ridden.
There’s always something to learn or some new part of the world to see… too much to learn to get stuck in a holding pattern. I *think* she’ll be pretty easy to ride in 6 months. I guess I’ll see!
I wholeheartedly agree with the advice in this video. Once again, you’ve shared an experience similar to one of my own. On my Vet’s orders, I wasn’t allowed to put any tack on my horse for 3 months. I was instructed to lunge and fill in the time with ground work. Once I got back on, my mare had virtually no steering and was very disobedient to the leg aids. A lack of balance made her feel very insecure and that insecurity caused some scary behaviors such as bucking, kicking out, and threatening to rear.
This was very interesting . I was expecting some bad acting only to see the horse do very well . Maverick is just learning and did what the trainer asked after he processed what he wanted .
I would think using long lines and teach steering from the ground prior to mounting would greatly assist with such an issue .
I have experienced what Mr Anderson is saying here with the horse having trouble going forward and steering where the groundwork was over extended .
I completely agree with you. I started my mustang and I noticed right away that I had to stop the desensitizing. My mare just didn’t care about the tools. Including the whip. Not good.
Also don’t teach especially the mustangs groundwork that makes no sense when you want to ride them. Like opening a gate and run to the owner. You seriously want your mustang to run after opening a gate? I have seen that in real.
Long reining over various terrain is also good to getting a horse to move forward and confidently while learning to listen to handler. Backing a horse after long reining then presents few problems...
What is long reining?
Absolutely agree!
@@michelleedwards2207 I loved long reining and its results! I used to go one step further, when I was rehabbing ponies, and break them to harness. Even if they only dragged a lightweight harrow around the sand school, or pulled the manure cart across the pasture, they learnt to go forward _with purpose_ as well as confidence, while 'stuff' was happening around them.
Parelli method trainers are notorious for teaching horses to stop when unsure about anything. Maybe it's safer, idk, but it's very hard to retrain them to work through fear/unsureness. I've also found some horses that are smart enough to fake the fear and stop to get out of work.
You’re too worried about steering. It’s not a car. He is not going to run into the wall. Get the horse to move out walk, trot and canter. Work on the one rein stop. If he flexes, you should be ok. And yes, I’d definitely use a round pen for the first few rides. Kicking is not a good way to create impulsion. You can use a crop like a jockey does to get forward. The trainer should have finished this horse out, but he certainly prepared him well.
"You will see places where this could have been very bad." I was expecting the horse to bolt or throw a fit, but thankfully, it didn't happen.
You always want training to be boring and predictable. Thankfully this one stayed boring but was not predictable. There was no blow up only because the horse did not want to. If it had wanted to we didn't have much to work with.
The horse hasnt been taught to disengage front and back or how to turn.
Hes lovely and soft theres been steps missed along the way.
Its not the horse has done too much groundwork it just hasnt been the right things.
Ours have to deal with horses passing them at a gallop and pacers flying up behind and past them. Thats on their 5th or 6th ride
Thanks
If you were to mount your camera on something like a Pivo Pod you would have automatic tracking of the horse so it would never be out of shot.
I've tried that. Does not work for what we do.
@@timandersonhorsetraining That’s a pity that it does not work for you. I have a trainer friend who has clients use it so that he can give training sessions at distance via their mobile phones or they can record their riding.
Hello, could you please tell me how you built this covered arena? Very interesting metal sides. Thank you
Sent my gelding to a trainer. 5months and he never rode him. It was a disappointment
Wow. What good is that?
Hello, could you please tell me how you built this covered arena? Very interesting metal sides. Thank you
Tim has some videos about it. I think they're from about 3 years ago or so. He might even have a playlist on the build. Cheers!