What Every PCB Designer Should Know - Return Current Path (with Eric Bogatin)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2020
- Discussion with Eric Bogatin about why return currents flow under tracks ... and more ...
Links:
- Eric Bogatin: / eric-bogatin-368860
- Eric's classes: www.bethesignal.com/bogatin/
- AltiumLive: www.altium.com/summit/
I can't stress enough how valuable this content is for the community.
Thank you very much Paul
I agree. I'm just a hobbyist, but now I realize there is a lot of mis-leading electronics information on the internet. People were told information that they did not fully understand, then details were lost when that information was passed on to the next person. If you use a Xerox machine to make a copy of a copy of a copy, you'll have no information left in the end.
@@abandonedcranium6592 I also watch Phill's lab. It's an amaizing channel too. I wonder if this channel and that could do a combined video.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
Wow. This was such a kick ass video. Hard concepts explained in a very intuitive way.
Thank you very much Ian
My thoughts exactly, amazing representation! Wish I learned many years ago. I mostly do low frequency digital circuits, but for some of the higher frequency communications this could be a life saver!
I had this idea in mind since I was 15 years old and told myself that the voltage must gradually get throuth the conductor, not magically be there all at once. Now I finally see the details.
Bogatin is the man! Great choice of guest. 👍
Thank you Jeffrey
wow, I so much appreciate the explanation of the impact of the dielectric thickness (h) in transmission line design.
Eric Bogatin + Robert Feranec = the best of signal integrity ! thank you!!
Robert you are awesome. Appreciate you spending so much time and effort making content for all of us. Thank you!!
Thanks Eric. I enjoyed learning about how we have to dive deeper into the concept of fields to understand the return currents.
Many times I come back to this video to refresh my memory, really great master class!! Thanks Robert❤
Your videos are amazing and inspiring at the same time; to go a step ahead in learning more about PCBs. Eric's talk has been an eye opener towards practicality of how a transmission line works and in his words "there's a lot to signal integrity".
Thank you both.
Much of this was over my head, but it helped me understand the complexities of designing PCBs and not garbling a signal.
Thanks, again.
Thank you for being such a sweet host. Thank you to the guest speaker as well; he seems like such an honestly sweet learned man. This is all very heartwarming to see such high quality lectures for free. Thank you so much 🙏🙏
Robert, thank you a lot. You just gave me a clear picture on how return current flows and where it flows.
Appreciate your effort and the way the terminologies are explained. Really loved it
This really helped a lot sir, although i might cannot fully understand the whole video at once but it actually gives me a intuition of how is current flowing through a microscrip line. Thanks for your dedication of works in this video! Especially that current flowing with a gap plane graph, this saved me so much time to understand it! !
It was very helpful with your pauses in the video to give clarifications, Robert! Thank you!
Differential pairs returning mainly via the gnd plane was a real eye-opener for me. Thanks!
Absolutely fascinating! Anytime two great engineers have a discussions like this, we're going to learn a lot.
Thank you Kent
It is always great to hear Eric!!
Thanks a lot Robert and Eric. Very Nicely explained, very nicely laid out presentation. The visuals are awesome, kudos to the person in Japan. I learned a lot from this today.
OMG... this cleared up so many things for me. Every student should watch this!
Hobbyist here thank you for the info I've never been to school everything is self taught and videos like this are invaluable to someone like me. You guys are talking about stuff I've never even thought of but now that I've seen it that image of running returns over gaps and all the static will never leave my brain after this. When I'm making pcb's in the future I will apply all of this thank you.
Outstanding video! Thank you alot, Robert and Eric! I really enjoy watching these kind of videos. There is a lot to learn!
Thank you very much
Thanks Robert, these videos are pure gold.
Unlearn what you have learned. Thanks Robert & Eric for doing such a great job. You people are amazing . :)
Thanks for this in-depth video. Keep posting. Thanks to Eric🤗
This was an awesome presentation. Thanks Eric and Robert.
Robert thank you for adding your insight at 13:44, this did help me understand the propagation a bit more. I dont see how that interpretations is incorrect either.
Wow this was such an eye opener, very glad I saw this. I think anybody interested in electronics should see this video. I have never seen it explained so good!
Thanks for your videos, it really helps me to increase my understanding when designing PCB.
This is really good. I actually have been struggling implementing 10/100 mbps ethernet with RMII and this video made me realize few bad design decisions on my latest board. Subscribed!
Great video! The concepts are very well explained. Thank you Robert and Dr. Bogatin!
Hi Robert, thank you very much for creating these informative videos and also thank you to your guests for sharing their knowledge. I always want to learn more to improve my pcb design skills and understanding of electronics. I really appreciate all the effort that you put in. Always looking forward to your videos.
Kind regards from South Africa
Andre
I definitely learned a lot from this video. Thanks a lot both of you. Eric Bogatin you're awesome.
Absolutely quality stuff..thanks Robert this was really brilliant conversation..please make more such content.. eagerly waiting..
Great video like many other of you ! All help to improve reliability or fault rate of a product.
I have been working on this stuff and related EMC behaviour for a few years.
I learned, that the return current for higher frequencies does not look for the lowest ohmic return path, but looks for a return path that will include the smallest enclosed area available.
So make a design, which facilitates this 'starting point' ; no gaps, short tracks, good (cable) shielding etc. You improve cross talk, but also minimize susceptibility for external electrical fields by minimalisation of the current loop size (including grounding). In our equipment we improved susceptibility for more than 40 dB for the higher frequencies, which we measured in our own very big EMC test lab. It was amazing to focus on these aspects of electronics, although it is 25 years ago now. Last remark .... a good design needs proper design of electronics, mechanics and interconnections (connectors an cabling). Teamwork !
Nice! Helped me understand the importance of the ground plan
very much valuable content thanks to Mr.Eric & Mr. Robert
Hi, Robert.
This video convinced me to enter to Eric’s SI class.
Thank you
Wonderful video. Cemented various concepts what I had only visualized in my head.
Thank you very much Katupiry
Love these videos and the call format, high quality stuff
thank you Mr. Robert and Eric Bigatin. it was very useful
It was a very informative video. Eric explained the stuff quite well from theoretical as well as practical aspects of PCB design.
What an Amazing Video! Kudos to everyone who has put in the effort to put this together. As Robert rightly pointed out that most of the folks including me getting into the field of electronics believe that return current is the current that leaves the negative terminal and goes into ground, but now i have a much better understanding! Thankyou
Thanks to Eric and you Robert, to teach signal integrity to profesional designs. Regards from Chile 🇨🇱
Thank you Leonardo
I thought I knew how to layout a board because I've been gaining experience, but this video shows me how little I know, so far. Thanks for giving me something to sink my teeth into. This is the most important layout video subject matter I've been able to find. I now need to produce a new better layout for my PCB project, after seeing this.
Discouraging is the word for it.
Very, very interesting discussion! Thank you to you and to Eric!
Thank you very much sm6eik
WOW!! This was a great video that demystified a lot! THANK YOU!
gotta love this! awesome.. and super you got Eric into this!
Thank you Paul
Congratulations to both of you Robert and Eric! Great video! Robert continue this kind of videos!
Thank you George
Since the beginning of these videos, I check almost every day if a new one has been published ! I have read about these concepts many times, I tried to apply them as much as I could in several PCB designs but it is the first time that they start to all make sense together in my head. I'm super curious also about the test boards he talks about to illustrate those principles ! Thank you for the videos :)
Thank you very much Alexis PS: I also made a note about the boards ... if it will be possible, I would be very interested to make some videos from real measurements.
I think this channel is very under-rated. The information I learned from you are very practical.
this is because less people are interested in complicated stuff, most people just need cat's videos
@Robert, great work, and this whole idea of talking to domain experts and bringing their insights to a larger audience are really really great. @Eric, no words, I can't imagine if someone else can explain signal integrity better than him.
Thank you very much Chethan
he explain simple and sufficient and I loved it.thanks a lot
Thank you Robert and Eric
Thanks a lot Robert for a great and valuable discussion video ever...👍👍
Very Informative video, especially with the contribution of such a great figure as mr. ERIC BOGATIN. We are waiting to see more . Thanks a lot for sharing.
Thank you Annacer
Excellent video! Thanks for sharing!
Super video!!! I liked you 100 quick tips video series, but this series is superior!! Thanks, Robert.
Thank you very much guillep2k
Great video !!! Thanks to robert and eric, looking forward to more such videos
Thank you gankankg
Only 1 years with saw your all video...My Hardware Design skill made 10x better and my company when saw my hardware they made Surprised !...Thank a lot...love you...
Finally I understand it! Many thanks to you both
Thank you very much Stephen
Great sharing !!!
your videos always informative and you added Eric that is wonderful.
Excellent presentation! More please!
Thanks a lot Robert and Eric, the video was very interesting !
WOW! WOW! This subject is super important. I've built circuits with multiple frequencies such as a microcontroller, with a wireless connection, with a PWM signal, with an SPI module... I thought a large ground plane was enough. I have to consider capacitances, inductances, current wave fronts...
l have to put this video on a playlist. Thanks for posting!
thankyou for shareing this in conversation
Very Interesting video. Thank you for this great one. Please continue with much more.
Great video Robert, explained so well man. Thank you and be safe!
Thank you Edgar. PS: Stay safe too
Really good stuff Robert.
Eric Bogatin has a great and unique way of explaining things in a simple and accurate way! I would have been extreamly lucky if he was one of my teachers.
Hi robert! I am an engineering student, I would like to thank you for providing us great content! This was very helpful! Thank you!
This video had opened my eyes, while blowing my mind. It gives me a bit of understanding of phenomenons that stands behind some electronic aplications obserwed in real life. Your video helped me to join some loose dots🙃
It is difficult to believe that such kind of videos are now available for free. Thanks a lot , Robert. Now because of you i know who is Eric Bogatin.
Thank you Robert, awesome video.
Great video as always! Thanks to both of you!
Thank you very much Patrick
such an interesting conversation! so much fundamental understanding which is very valuable!
Thank you very much Oizys
Very very interesting as usual, now we (you) are moving more deeper in concept and I'm happy to see more and more participants. Great idea to get others experts involved. Maybe Dr Rick Hartley next time ?
Thanks you Robert !
Thank you
I like this kind of call-videos 👍
I wonder if electrical short and long depends on the wavelength (c/f) of the ground frequency of the signal?
Eric is a master at explanation!
I like this video style. Very educational and very well explained.
Thank you Adam
Awesome! Great educational contents, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. It’s the fundamentals of science. 🙏
Great subject with great explanation!
Great video, thanks. The voltage wavefront model is interesting. di/dt is a concern in high speed but also high current. Would be interested in a similar discussion about power supplys
Thank you
Very helpful
Please make more of these with more PCB samples
It took me 2 hours to understand the whole discussion. It is worth it. I respect you both. Thank you. :)
Thank you Garima PS: Sometimes I still keep learning new things even I have watched the talks number of times before
Excellent as always! 👏👏👏👏
I think it would very valuable if every electronic engineer is taught about electrostatics and the impact they have on electronic devices. A lot of what goes into designing signal integrity with return paths, crosstalk etc. becomes intuitive when you understand how a very dense and very fast impulse forces its way through a design destroying all the barriers you thought were insulative. Generally, we just assume out of college that the impedance between traces is too great to be a concern, but that is only true in limited circumstances.
Awesome video. Learned alot. I was wondering how does putting a ground trace right next to all signal tracea would be? Would the return path stay mostly on the top of the board? Or would it still want to use the pcb material as a capacitor?
Very interesting and intuitive material.
But I'm particularly curious on minute 17:00, when talking about the current going around the gap: Eric mentioned the current going around the gap is some kind of simple approximation, but in reality the energy excites a slot wave mode in the gap. Any article or text I can read about to understand this mechanism?
Thanking you both. It has been a very nice talk from Eric. Robert, have you made any video to get into the PiPro simulation?
Very interesting! Thanks for bringing us this kind of videos
Thank you very much Jorge
That's super good. Thanks Eric. Thank you.
This video was really helpful. Thank you so much. I have a question though. If you have a power plane also right next to this signal line, will equal amount of displacement current flow through that also? (Since that plane is also seeing the change in electric field). This would mean that there should be both a power plane and a ground plane adjacent to all signals with no cut in them?
AWESOME. Very cool, thanks for sharing some great info!
Nice presentation, thank you.
Great video and an important topic to understand. Thank you for sharing it.
Thank you very much
Thank you Robert for the great content,
Question: When we say displacement current is induced due to the changing voltage(AC), which is instantaneous in nature as well, can this be present without the load connected between the signal and the return path?
Please do more videos like this. Great work!
Great explanation. Thanks a lot. Please do more videos
Robert, you are the best! Keep up the good work...