Since I have started talking about this issue I have noticed a minor change in the game. The point did reach a lot of good faith people who tried it out and reported incredibly positive feedback. Pretty much every solo q game I play people reference "never ff", "try hard" mentality to me which is a big deal. It means that the opinions have seeped into the community and that there is hope. If you have any arguments or criticism feel free to post them below, I welcome all sorts of feedback. Let's make this community awesome and the game as fun as it can be in all it's glory.
I'm with you on red pill never surrender but to say it's the number one reason games are lost is wildly WILDLY off base. Edit: there needs to be a LP loss prevention for people who vote no.
Regarding the trolls in champion select (disco nunu, jungle yuumi, etc.). I would very much like it if Riot had some sort of list of champions that are considered troll picks and implement a way to detect them mid-game. E.g. Your team has a jungle, the jungle picks a normal jungler. Someone else on your team picks yuumi with smite. Now, at this point that potential troll might actually be cooking something illegal. Now attach to that potential troll some tracker which follows their impact on the game. --Does the troll skyrocket in deaths? --Does the troll take camps during the early game from your jungler? --Some other relevant tracker. The game instantly ends if these things are noticed. Awards the opposing team a small token LP gain for having suffered through a bad quality game. The loosing team is not penalized with lost LP. The Troll is instantly banned for the rest of the day. This should not be hard to implement. We already have the roles, the champions and the metrics. Just have to combine them and have some human check the troll pick list every once in a while to update it by removing/adding champions.
I agree a lot with your never ff mentality in anything below diamond atleast.(never got higher so cant judge) However something I've realized that is way worse than ff'ing is people straight up refusing to try and win. In my personal experience I have not felt like ff'ing was a huge part of my losses. In around 160 games I only had 1 ff that was completely unnecessary. (All others were us all dead and enemy hitting nexus) I way more often have very winnable games and people refusing to play for their Wincon and just doing whatever. Maybe im just to shit at the game to create winning plays but idk what i should do when my team tries to facecheck the 5 item toplaner at 25min and that instantly loosing the game even though we couldve easily just cleared waves. Tldr sry for being shit at explaining but ppl give up without ffing which makes the game feel shit so to me its more just a looser mentality rather than ff culture.
@@Alliancewolf another one would be proximity to an even or player favored teamfight then if that distance increases without abilities being used it means they were baiting teammates.
I understand the never ff mentality, as I nearly never surrender myself, I'm an ornn main and we scale harder then fresh wine. However it's more of a mental battle. Leauge players have a bad enough mental as is. But then you get the low elo lane bully players. They loose lane? Now they know for the rest of the entire game they will not have fun. Now you have players who are playing worse because they are tilted 3 minutes into the game. And useful pings to help your team go out the window when you have to mute bad players. Now you have a tilted team who doesn't play for the group just trying to get a kill for fun. It's not that it's unwinnable, but I understand those who wanna leave a team that looses early, I don't wanna babysit a 2 million mastery janna that's been hardstuck this rank for the last 7 seasons. Nor wish to help teammates I've been essentially forced to mute to focus on my own lane and jungler.
People are playing League as it was a loot box, any bad opening just make people rage and wanting to just go open the next box instead of actually playing and enjoying a match.
Botlane goes 0-3 pretty much fast as possible and our jungler goes “ff15 plz” and starts “testing things”. Aka running into enemy jungle feeding. After all that, we EASILY won the single legit team fight of the match. The game was easily winnable, if not for people mentally giving up as soon as that 0-3 was on the board
@@ragerontilt4778 The problem are champs hyperscaling from those 3 kills, Katarina roaming bot for three free kills? Inplayable game for mid and bot since Kata now is fed and will 1 shot everything from now on, oh top fed the darius? welp GG go next
@@ragerontilt4778Thats not cherry picking is literally reality. Some champs are disgusting with 3 kills and it only goes downwards ( and especially if the matchmaking is rigged and they are higher elo than your entire team)
I've been trying the no ff mentality recently. It didnt have much impact in my number of wins/loses, but IT HAD A BIG impact im my enjoyment of the game, it is way more fun to focus in what you can do to improve/impact, than to be tilted by loses.
100% i agree with you. Im not particularily good and want to keep getting better and know i have a lot to improve. But i've had WAY more fun as a result.
@@sooslokosvivemSaaame! I absolutely love hwei and it feels so satisfying to outplay someone as hwei. The only person i 100% struggle against is Fizz.. not fun against him but even against yone its interesting!
It ruins botlane for me. Most of the champs there aren't even champions before reaching 2 items (so minute 20 or so). I rarely have a game that didn't already have 2 surrender votes by the time we can actually start team fighting. It also creates a game, where people pick the strongest lane bully, flip the game and FF15 if they lost. It's so unfun.
I can relate to this. ADC is an absolute nightmare role to play. Even the contrary happens, when I finally get strong, and before I can even use my strength, the other team FFs. So lame
As a top laner who used to spam ff after failing to lane bully my opponent I realize my mentality is why toplane often feels useless. If all you want to do is ff when you start falling behind then no shit the roles that have delayed value (top and bot) are both gonna feel shitty and blame everyone else
What about a personal option that you can disable the surrender popup and it'll be automatically considered as a no for all of your games unless changed.
Another point to add: once you change your mindset, you will have fun in these "lost" games too. Your fun shouldn't only come from winning, playing the game itself should be fun. This is why so many people play League and say it is miserable, they only have fun when they win. I want to be challenged and overcome that challenge. I take a 40 min close game that I lose, where we almost made a comeback, over a 15min complete stomp where I win EVERY TIME. It's just more fun, never surrender
It's like playing a souls game for the first time. You get to the boss(or get killed along the way), die, reflect on where you messed up, improve and do better next time. And once you succeed, you feel the happiness and fulfillment rushing to your head and you enjoy the game more.
Sorry, but i fail to find any fun in being oneshot on cooldown by (insert an asassin here) for 40 minutes, even if we win. +20 lp is not worth the 30 minutes of gray screen.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845 This is literally why I have dumped so many hours on those games because of the challenge and overcoming it. Same thing with League.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845 but the thing is you get stomped by the boss for half an hour and then you beat him, in league every single dark souls "death" is half an hour. Also in dark souls you rely on yourself and noone else, and the enemy(boss) itself is always the same difficulty which is consistency which is enjoyable to learn
Regarding the solution: I like the tick box idea, however I think as a further barrier to FF’ing, the pop up should remain, but with a catch. That is, if enough people have ticked the box, THEN the pop up appears. That way someone who ticked the box early out of tilt but forgets to untick when they realize the game is winnable won’t randomly FF a game.
maybe implement a system where if someone starts an ff vote their team has a set amount of time to react to it, and if a ff doesnt go thru all ticks instantly go away
As a Master tier player, my character pool is full of scale/stack characters. Every time surrender pop up shows, it drives me crazy. I 100% guarantee you if my teammates trust me more than surrender pop up, I would single handedly won for them most of my lose matches.
they forgot late game champ exist...and they even forgot to play on late game as they keep surrendering early. How many times my Ryze is completely useless because they expect me to do bazillion damage on early while his damage spike is basically mid to late game where he had at least 3 or 4 (boots not included) to deal decent damage
@@imanjx2914not only that most champs nowadays scale even slightly besides a handful that fall off most of the time by just playing the game you end up winning off of comp alone without infinite scalers or kass/kayle/ryze
Sure, but most of the games (at least plat>emerald, were I am) people are just plain toxic and force you to play 45min games allthough they are 1-15 on a full tilt rampage. Your scenario would also be frustrating as a late game champ.
Me, me, me, me, me. It's all about me and me. Ask yourself a question. Did you do anything that will make rest of your team not trusting you? Because I can bet that your "me, me, me, me" attidue made at least some of them to say "fuck it, I'm not going to play this shit, let me out". Because it's one thing to play scalling champ and the other thing is to be selfish dickhead.
otp aurelion sol here, i have a 67%wr acc in d4 rn, peaked master last season, i cant get out of emerald on my "main" account (the acc has existed for quite a bit of time and tbh seems like old mmr screwed it a bit, or idk). The thing is i notice a very real difference of game quality between my diamond acc and emerald stuck one, the people i meet in ranked on d4 are just so much more willing to play the game and also rarely troll than on the other acc, its been this way since placements so its not an elo diff, i literally get different people, even the guy who spams cringe stuff in champ select ends up caring for the game and mutes all rather than spam ff/afk. I cant win games with 20 kills in emerald because player have such a bad mentality thinking they know everything about the game and proceed to either ff prematurely or int? Most of these guys dont even mean to do that they just do it because "get me out XD lol unplayable" and some of them even admit they do it and what can i do then. Idk if there's a way to prevent this, but i genuinely think there's a fallcy in the system about matchmaking or some stuff that just puts u in a sort of losers q, otherwise how can i explain that im 50% wr stuck in plat-emerald on an acc while climbing fairly easy in diamond at the same time? "main" acc: www.op.gg/summoners/euw/%CE%91%CF%85relion%20Sol-STARS second/"smurf" acc: www.op.gg/summoners/euw/Cleurnit-EUW
I quit the game in s7 and came back to play normals with friends last October. I was shocked with how easily even they wanted to surrender. I told them that if their idea of the game is to stomp lane and hope the other team surrenders they might as well go to a casino instead of playing. Since then we never surrender even if we int our asses off and its hella fun cuz we actually win maybe 10% of those unwinable games (total guess btw but it feels that way) its also more fun to try and beat the fuckers that stomped us early… so glad we aren’t the only ones and people like you help the community change their mindset for the better!
I literally had the same experience as you. Stopped playing around season 7 and came back in October. One of my friends particularly would get so tilted if he lost lane and would immediately ask us to surrender at 15. Even if we were ALL WINNING our lanes. I was like, bro are you serious?
I've literally never understood why surrender is even a thing. I mean, running it down mid is not allowed but exploding your own nexus is? HOW are we not noticing something's wrong here? "Well in surrender everyone agrees", yea, in 5 people surrender sure, but if there's even only one person willing to play the game, are the other 4 allowed to run it down mid? No, so why should they be allowed to instantly explode the nexus, which is even worse? Surrender is objectively the MOST toxic behaviour you can have in League, it's just normalized for no reason.
@@geoDB. Yes, you start soloq, you have to finish the game, you know it before queueing up. You have to respect every single person of your team, if someone (even one person) wants to play a winnable game (so every soloq game) you have no right whatsoever to take away his lp
@@harrystyles7466 Your comment is actually very interesting, 'cause it highlights how people that are toxic in one field, tend to be toxic in general (wasting other people's time, 0 arguments, insulting). Thanks for proving my point
Voice chat would save league. Even with all the bullshit in the game and the amount of toxicity there is, having an actual team-oriented experience where people can see if someone is truly trolling or not would make things sm better
Most people would be less toxic and the small minority that would be more toxic u can just mute. VC needs to be in League it would make the game a lot more fun and interesting and might even let u know new cool people.
I remember when I first started playing a few months back I was part of the ff 15 culture since that's just how I thought the game was supposed to be. After learning more about the game and watching your vids I decided to stop surrendering and it's incredible how much more fun the game is when you don't give up immediately. This morning my Katarina rage quite after dying repeatedly in lane like an idiot and despite it being a 4v5 we almost brought it back. Even though we didn't win I think everybody that played it out had a good time. Not to mention I've had crazy comebacks in seemingly unwinnable games that never would have happened if I gave up. So even if this video doesn't end up changing most peoples minds, I want you to know that your words have at least changed one player for the better.👍
Honestly i first saw you in a few guides i looked at on mobafire, only for my brother to point out you are balkanian and i instantly remembered your name, then i saw you throwing advice and speeches on reels, and i recognised that supposedly good balkanian velkoz player, i gave them a listen and unironically my perception on the entire game is changed by applying a pragmatic and reasonable way of thinking that i think we are all capable of, but is overwhelmed but impulsive and rough emotion competitiveness causes. I can once again enjoy this game, and many, many others, its the way of thinking that needs change and not the problem. Thank you azzap, it really helps more than you think to see you dont need theatrics or controversy to make it and have fun, it really does. Hvala brate, nazdravlje
I agree as someone who just recently got into DOTA 2. The game doesn't have a surrender option unless you are on a 5 stack and they have a pretty harsh consequences on AFK/Leavers. So you are incentivized to playout >40 minute game or else you'll get punished. The game heavily revolves around counters. Heroes picks specifically to counter a hero, items that can counter a hero and items that can also counter said items. Making the game heavily requiring teamwork. Yes there are still flaws on the game like the community is arguably more toxic than League and spending over 40 mins per game with them can still be exhausting. But that hit of dopamine where you win a game that is near unwinnable because of 1 good team fight where everyone on the team clutched it out for the win.
That's unfortunate that you kept getting toxic players in your games, I for one only get like a 2-5 games every 100 games. Maybe you have been put in losers queue, it's not like the loser queue of league (win/lose) but as in a queue for toxic losers and smurfs go and get matched together. It's completely different/separate from behaviour score. This just a heads up for you as you're new to dota. Glhf.
Yeah, I love that in Dota you can’t just surrender, people just don’t know how to use this option. There are games ofc that are unwinnable when enemies have 20k gold lead on 15-20 minute mark, they play as a team, you’re just a saver support and your team lacks any kind of composition but those games are as rare as BiS item drop in ARPG so most of losing games are winnable. And even if you still lost try to appreciate good moments from your last game, analyse your mistakes and enemies’ good plays, play the game and not just roll yourself a victory in roulette
Coming off Dota/Dota 2, i feel like surrender being an option is already a set down, people want to FF after 1 death, now it might be that some matchups are already hard and that 1 kill sets it off the edge but this surrender mentality is terrible and i hope the players that love it they don't do it IRL. Also, GIVE VOICE CHAT, we spent billions of years of evolution to learn how to communicate without gestures and i come to this game and the only option i got is spam pings.
I see the exact opposite in both ranked and norms. I have a couple accounts in varying ranks (One for each role in the game) and across high plat to high diamond FFing and giving up before 15 mins has increased drastically over the years. From almost never ffing to almost every "bad" game having at least one ff vote.
Phenomenal video, you and the Broken By Concept podcast are the two figures in the scene I see making the most positive changes, thanks for practicing what you preach. You are simultaneously teaching valuable lessons outside of league with this video and your philosophy as well.
Coming from HOTS where you can't surrender i absolutely agree with surrendering being bad for the game. I have experienced a lot of those 1 vs 4 surrender situations too and i can never understand why after queue, draft and 20+ minutes spend in the game players can't bother to spend another 10 or so minutes to give enemies an opportiunity to throw their lead. The solution you provided at the end of the video with surrendering being hidden from other players is actually a 500 IQ way to solve this. The surrender box asking the question activly makes people think about surrendering, signals to them their teammates dont want to play and further makes them lose hope for a win as well as forces them into a confrontation with other players. People frequently get mad at the one or two players denying the surrender.
Because league is not hots. A team fight last a whole minute there, you can actually recover during the team fight. In lol, a team fight lasts about 8-10 seconds and it usually ends with a uberfed assasin/mage deleting everyone near him. I dunno what game azzap is playing, but the game feels more bursty and snowbally than ever. Enemy team has a fed kayn/Talon/Heca/Naafiri? Congrats, you don’t get to experience the game anymore because you’re playing adc and die to a wet fart from a 1/6 assasin jumping into you. And don’t get me started on drafting, especially in low elo.
@@mr.nobody4994 I feel like what you brought up here is a whole diffrent pack of worms. Bursty and overly snowballing champions are a big problem in league and i couldnt agree more with this part. My point about surrendering and throwing leads still stands tho. You may not have the ability to turn the game around against a fed enemy, but they still have the ability to throw their lead, feed you shut down, take fights with nubers disadventage, ignore your splitpushing toplaner for too long etc. The game may feel frustrating at that point but if you just try to keep being relevant and stick in the game for another 10 or 15 minutes you get a chance to turn a lose to a win. Small chance to win is better than a guaranted lose.
I used to duo with a friend a lot and we would NEVER ff with the two of us. So no vote ever made it passed us and that was truly the most enjoyable LoL experience I’ve had
I agree with everything expect the buff/nerf point. The game has been suffering a ton from powercreep over the years and some of the older champs need help to keep up with the rest of the pack. Another good thing with buffs is that they are overall more exciting to the game then nerfs. I think they should keep up with more buffs then nerfs but ramp up the nerfs on some of the more prominent cases of champs that are on the spotlight for too long, instead of flipping it and having more nerfs over buffs
Hi! First of all I absolutely agree with all the points you made in that video and I hope that it will be seen by as many LOL players as it's possible. On the same topic I want to share my LOL experience so far. From highschool I was a Dota and later Dota 2 player only. I started in an average elo and climbed as high as Titan (I believe to be an equivalent of gm/challanger in LOL, correct me if I'm wrong) throughout caring about the game, reviewing vods and playing with friends with the same attitude. In Dota there is a thing called behavior score which essencially is a number from 0 to 10k which represents how mentally stable a player is:D If you are a decent player(behaviour-vise, not talking about skill-expression) you will be at 10k period. If you afk, dc, sell ur items, intentionally feed etc. it will drop and essentially will queue you more with people "like you"(you can fix it, but you will struggle and see for yourself how "fun" it is to play with people like you). Also, "Surrender vote" is not a thing and games last around 20% longer than league's. Sometime ago me and my friend decided to try out LOL and make it our main game. We were honestly shocked how league's community managed to be more toxic(which we didn't think was a possibility, tbh) and whiny. And IMO "FF" button is to be blamed for that. Unfortunately for League players, when we play it's impossible to surrender because 3-2:) We won games with people who just decided to start running it down mid(like, an actual one, with 0-20, die-respawn-die-repeat) and games where we were down all objectives and games where the scoreboard looked as terrible as it can get. And as expected those games are SO FUN TO WIN. And we know that, coz in dota you can't ff, you HAVE to fight and HAVE to try(or suffer trying to get ur behaviour-score back:) ). And we LOST games that were so winnable you can put ur grandma in ur chair and she will win. THROWS HAPPEN. And the same attitude we face at multiple different ranks (started from stuck in gold, now we hang around emerald-diamond). Going back to the toxicity I mentioned - people GIVE UP so fast and blame each other for ANY mistake regardless of it's actual impact on the game and on top of that have the AUDACITY to conclude that the game is won/lost at 5/10/15 minutes in fucking GOLD ELO, just how much of yourself you can think of, jeez. Your shorts started to appear in my youtube feed and I absolutely LOVE and support the culture you are trying to spread! Keep it up! NEVER SURRENDER, let's make league great again! P.S. How the fuck is MOBA this popular still doesn't have a voice comm is beyond our understanding as well, but that's a topic for another day. (typing out what and why you think the best call right now is at 40m mark when both baron/elder is up, someone is splitting, someone is dead and it all looks like chaos is NOT fun:D)
I think a lot of the issue is something you said near the end: people only play to win the game, and physically cannot enjoy it otherwise. I believe this is also why URF has degraded so much. It went from "oh what kind of funny cool things can I do with these champs?" to "alright I need to pick the most broken thing possible to have a chance at winning". This then propels other people who are "playing for fun" to also pick the "broken" champs and builds to have a chance at being able to play the game, which put it into a bad spot. FF culture is very similar. When people put that surrender box up and subconsciously stop trying, others notice and do the same themselves. It's very infectious. I'll admit I'm not the most mental proof player, and have started surrender votes on games we end up winning. I have my moments of weakness for sure, but NOTHING in League is more satisfying than winning a "lost" game. I was just playing Clash with the bois and we were totally stomping a team with every dragon, all their towers, and a baron under our belt, but we made a few mistakes, got caught, gave shutdowns, and they came DANGEROUSLY close to making a comeback. We were so desperate, we had to sneak a backdoor while they were fighting at baron. And that was roughly at mid Emerald ELO. I also just wanna say I appreciate all the work you do, Azzapp, with this movement, but also Vel'Koz himself. He's the only mage I play, and I always enjoy it, even if I still feel like I have low impact lol
The best game I've ever played, the most fun I had was a season 5 match, we were loosing most of the game. It lasted 67 minutes and we did end up loosing but we made the enemy team work for it. Even with a loss I remember it clear as day. Thinking to myself after the match "Damn, that was a good game". Wasn't mad or disapointed. Just satisfied.
You saw this way more back in the day. I played since season 2, and the games were more 40-50 minutes in length back then. I was a pretty low rank so perhaps my enemies/allies didn't know how to close out a game, but damn was it fun. I remember playing a game where there was an enemy kha zix that was like 20+ kills and 3-4 deaths. At minute 50 if you walked 2 meters into jungle you get oneshot by him. my whole team banded together, playing so well, warding, playing objectives, taking good fights and we managed to turn it around and win a 60+ min game. And the whole team was non toxic, nobody complained or flamed, everybody was just giving their thoughts on best strategies to win. Peak game performance.
@@jozokrstanovic9040 I myself started when Hecarim came out, idk the precise season but around season 2-3 so yeah, I was there bro. Damn I miss those days.
The ff mentality needs to go. I would personally in ranked love to see surrending go away. Ever since I've stopped giving up and just play my best there's always a turning point in the match where things start going in your favour like knocking out the enemy stronger members to allow your team to snowball back into a win or just in general working as a team in a team game (shocker) to win that unwinnable game. Like an example of a game we didn't ff we almost lost. Like one more hit on nexus and would of lost. But we were just on the back burner farming and stopping enemy pushes for a good 10 15 mins to then allow us to get an ace and push and win the game. All it takes is abit of time or the right conditions to win. Never felt happier about a win
This video clip with Jankos is great example of what is actually going on with League. The game's being killed not by devs but by players. Game has became so much "power-creeped" (which is game dev issue imo but that's another topic) that approximately I believe 70%-80% players want to feel and be that "GODLIKE CARRY" and god forbid if they are behind. They will troll, surrender, cry in chat and just stop playing game in general. Modern League of Legends is plagued with so called "Naruto syndrome" players. They prefer to lose game, time and mental instead of letting somebody in their team to carry the game. Basically extreme narcissism in video game...
I have two suggestions id like to hear others thoughts: 1. Removing the option of surrendering from the solo/duo ranked games. 2. You can only play ranked if you keep a high honor level.
one of us must be living in an alternate reality... you're telling me that not only do your teammates vote yes, but they're even voting yes in winnable games?
this video has lots of massive unanswered issues. but i really like your idea about making the surrender unanimous on the scoreboard. 1. league is the most toxic community around bar none, the idea that suddenly they'll stop inting/afking after a month because "well they cant surrender" is crazy and completely underestimates how dedicated people can be to sabotaging themselves and others. T1's old videos are a great example of this. 2. the balancing of the game pretty much since mythics in season 9 has been continuously on a downward spiral and if you REALLY want to get players to try more and play harder, fixing those issues are far more likely to have positive results. 1 bad match in s14 vs 1 bad match in season 7 is night and day different. in the past, while some characters have had crazy power (like rengar 1 shotting people off jump for a whole split) all the meta champs are doing that and completely oppressing most other champions in the process, because you're either the best or not good enough. 3. equating korean gameplay culture to listening to k-pop is insane. you just said it's unreleated to how well they play but they get to play out early game more than any other region and that gives the chance to completely perfect it off more time spent playing it. plus toxicity doesnt have time to fester if the game is over in 15-20. sure someone might get mad and rage a bit but they dont have time to really tilt off the world and cause terrible games for people for the whole day. 4. your entire equation on how important those "winnable" games are is lacking so much information. firstly as you just said noone knows if the game is winnable, the enemies can always make a mistake. which is true, but statistically speaking getting an extra game each hour means i get to play an additional 2 games a day if i play only 4 hours. meaning instead of 4 games per day i get 6 games per day. after a whole week i've already played 14 more games than another me playing for 4 hours. statistically if i am only winning 55% of my games i get way more value out of more games than i do out of a few losses swapping over. 5. you say low elos dont know the game and therefore cant know if they'd win or lose sounds very much like asking for an elitest mentality because while i 100% agree with that statement itself it also means that they dont know how to staunch the bleeding. meaning when they lose it's going to be much more 1 sided as they dont have the skills to make a comeback at all.
I come from fighting games and one of the most fundamental and enjoyable things about that genre is losing, learning through badexperiences is one of the best things that can happen and is ESSENTIAL to improve, and what i've come to realize after playing league consistently for more than a year now is that league players don't want to learn, they mostly just want to win, but don't have motivation if the game doesn't snowball right away, and they stop trying if it doesn't go their way, and it's incredibly frustrating because they feel entitled to insult you or treat you badly for any mistake, when making mistakes, even at high level is essential to learn.
A tip a close friend told me "you only need 2 players with working brains to win the match", i was playing mid, my jungler went afk and i just won the game with only toplane playing, botlane was just feeding. Dont FF, thats bs.
That is exactly why I take the matter in my own hands and queue two accounts at the same time (1 support that I play with my feet and 1 adc). Unfortunately, I go 0/40 every game because of jungle diff. My teammates always hold me back no matter what.
i think one big factor to ff culture is that for a lot of people, winning is not the objective of the game, but getting fed and become a god, destroying the nexus is not as fun as killing the enemy team, so if they realise that they are not getting to enjoy the fantasy of being overpower, it doesnt matter that the game is winnable and my can carry me, surrendering is better because it lets them try again to get fed sooner.
Honestly even just implementing the surrender option on the scoreboard instead of being a popup would be a massive change. People emotionally vote yes after one bad thing happens when they didn't REALLY want to ff the game. And then they are hard committed to a yes vote and it's on everyone else to ff. Thankfully I mostly duo queue recently and we both have anti-ff mentalities unless people are legitimately griefing and the game is miserable (to the point where ffing is more desirable than winning just to get away from shitty human beings) which only happens once every 20-30 games or so. Duo queueing is easily the best solution to have complete control over whether the team can surrender or not.
I still remember how 10+ years ago my team had clear lead and we lose a single team fight. Surrender comes up, I press no and almost laugh at the idea. Vote goes through 4-1.
Honestly the only time I ff is when my whole team's just not feeling it anymore. It's not like the people are raging/ inting/ or griefing. They just all lost motivation that game after playing badly and are silently playing the game out going through the motions. We've all been there. And it's okay. It's just a game. No point in playing if you're just bummed out and not feeling it.
Honestly, before the FF thing started, everyone who didn't want to play the game anymore and wanted to leave was forced to play a looong match with 4 others who wanted to play. They were told to suck it up and start crying, but now that the roles have reversed, suddenly that's a big problem.
@@adstellerA ban? What kind of question is this pal. He just means that now we have an option to leave the game vs back then, which is good. Problem îs that its just too abused.
@@GE_Photon_Lord why should anyone one have the option to leave a "competetive" match early? (Normals aram etc. not included) So if you alt F4 you ll get a bann. If you reached the point where you stop playing to the best of your abiletys just cose you wanna, go next. Should that one not also be punished with a timeout?
@@adsteller No lie, I don't understand. Your english is so broken. Also, no matter the gamemode, you should be able to ff. What's the difference between ranked and a normal game? Nothing besides LP gain. So you essentially play the exact same game. I dont see why you shouldnt be able to ff if you genuinely want to get out and dont care ab the LP loss. And regarding to what I said earlier...no one wants to alf f4 the game because you get punished more besides the LP loss. So you have the option now to press ff instead of scooping. If ff wouldnt exist then this game would be even more broken, a lot of people would just leave without notice. "If you reached the point where you stop playing to the best of your abiletys just cose you wanna, go next." - this is tilt, exhaustion or you genuinely cant win that game. If its one of the first two then you should be punished ONLY if you troll or grief. If you just press ff it's not a big deal and in fact it's your right to press it. But it's not justified, I agree.
The only reason you think this is because you play a selfish soloq champ that can always play the game: velkoz support, you need a better perspective. Most games aren’t worth playing or are literally unplayable for other roles/champs
I gotta say I'm a player that abuse surrender, not only in League, but in any competitive game. I've seen some people saying that not ffing helped them to enjoy the game, and I will give it a try, in a few weeks I will came back and edit this comment with the results(I hope I don't forget about it)
The problem with solo queue is the amount of garbage that's playing ranked instead of learning the game before they play competitively. Riot needs to do what Valve did with Dota2 and add at least a 100hour unranked playtime counter before ranked play, for every new champion played add another 20hours on top, for that specific champion to be unlocked into ranked play. That'd fix most issues in my opinion, FF culture probably to a degree as well. The more knowledge a player has, the less they're inclined to prematurely give up when the game is winnable. This would also fix the problem with smurfing and de-ranking bot accounts.
It's kinda funny, but the data they had about "Failed FF's end up being lost anyways." I remember for the longest time people would just straight up run it down if their FF failed. Like they'd go to every lane feeding, and if you looked at their match history they did it tons without bans. That data was horridly skewed because of that kinda behavior for sure.
you're wasting your time either way, winning or losing doesn't matter. You're already wasting your time the moment you accept the game, better learn to enjoy lost games as much as won games. If you're seeing an imaginary number go up and think that's not a waste of time you got bigger issues than "never ff"
You literally look too deep into that problem, the reason why people surrender and give up early is that people are already done playing with monkeys ruining every game, dying every single minute and int. As long as there is no punisment for going 0-8 in every single game this problem will not be solved. How many years we have to wait for better ranked quality, just put those morons who int every game into separate queue or make them play normals instantly after inting the game.
I have a better solution: get into a game, play it, have fun, if after 10 minutes youre toxic, angry, wanna ff, dont play league. If you are having fun, keep playing.
Hey azzapp as someone who barely ffs this resonates with me. Although my surrender rate is low because I wanted to keep the rarely surrenders badge that professor gives prople that always vote no. I main top and usually i am 0 0 or 0 2 and play for objectives so it annoys me to no end when ppl only look at kda when league is an objective based game and about 80% of the games are a 50 50 where those with better mental end up winning
Was never huge on surrending but I know I did give up fairly often. the past week I have switched to no ff and I have not only been more fulfilled by games but even improvements to my own play
I've always been a fervent detractor of never FF culture, here's why : *Never FF is just as bad (if not worse) as FF culture.* They both have one thing in common which is at the very root of the problem : not analysing the game to assess the odds of winning *AND* of having fun. I insist, both the *pursuit of winning* and the *fun* are important and necessary. A game where players don't pursue victory is not a game, it's just a mess. A game where people don't have fun isn't a game either, it's just a responsability. 7:24 : players queue up for a game where they can have fun and pursue victory, they don't queue up for a mess where teammates pursue loss or your suffering, nor do they queue up for an unfun responsability they want no part in. We all understand why FF culture is bad : games are thrown and wasted when they could definitely have been played out, won, and given fun to the players. Now, here's why never FF culture is bad : 1) if the game is lost / inted hard enough for the game to be unwinnable and/or unfun for everyone, the never FFers keep the game hostage uselessly. It also empowers actual hostage takers who intentionnally keep the game going to make their team suffer. 1.a) Being held hostage in an inted game is truly the most frustrating experience in LOL. The suffering lasts for an unknown extended period of time that you can't control, with further disappointment and frustration for every next refused FF vote. 7:24 : Players don't queue up to get inted (not just a bad play or 2, but actual horrible/toxic gameplay) and hostaged like that. An FF where you could've won is a quick and small inconvenience in comparison : you lose the game, it's annoying, but you can instantly move on to whatever you want to do next in your life. *A hostaged game feels much worse than a bad FF.* 1.b) 7:05 : Hostaged games are also quite a common occurrence, 2 players or 1 duo are enough to hostage a game, I'd say you get inters/horrible players about once every 10 games, and as far as I'm concerned, since the dawn of LoL, this never FF mentality has always been a thing and it's always been hard to get an FF vote through, even in doomed games. In comparison, I quite rarely get games where people FF when we could win. Some players, or myself, might sometimes start an ff vote when things are going south, but it will very rarely go through and it's all like that vote never happened. Maybe that's specific to EUW, but I believe that's also where Azzapp plays too (maybe I'm wrong). *If about 1 in 15-20 games are hostaged, only about 1 in 30 get surrendered when they could've been won.* (and that's a very generous estimation for bad FFs, it's probably more around 1 in 100 in my experience). *=> Hostaged games are worse AND more common than bad surrenders that go through, and that's mostly because of the never FF mentality.* 1.c) However, I also agree that about 20% games, at least 1 teammate gets tilted by the slightest inconvenience and will give up for a moment and soft int, but that won't necessarily lead to a game that gets FFed. Inting /soft inting and FFing are different things. I will always try my best even though I'm voting for an FF. You can't just throw FFing and inting in the same bag as an argument. 1.d) 12:51 : both pursuit of victory and fun are necessary, but you're only considering pursuit of victory here. Fun is what most players are looking for, pursuit of victory and competitiveness is just a means to that end. Let's also consider the part where players enjoy playing to improve, I myself find that part of the game pretty important, fun and motivating. This self improvement is still just a means to that end of having fun, and FFing faster also means playing more games, which means more experiences, especially when early game and laning phase are clearly the most important, impactfull and adjustable part of the game, where players have the most room to improve and learn while making a difference. 2) *FFing doomed games doesn't impact your climb.* 2.a) First things first, yes, some games are just doomed. Yes the ennemy team could throw, but your team is still even more likely to throw even harder. Yes, you could potentially win any given game. But statistically speaking, if you were to play that same doomed game a 1000 times over and over again, you would maybe only win it 10% of the time. Let's say we're at ±20LP gains. With such odds and gains, if you FF, you lose the game 100% of the time. That's -20LP as an expected value. If you don't FF, your expected value becomes -20*90%+20*10%=-16LP. The only difference your never FF mentality achieves would then be +4LP on average for every doomed game. If 1 out of 10 games is doomed, that's +0.4LP on average. That's not gonna make any difference. And I don't believe the estimations I made for the sake of this example are unrealistic. 2.b) 10:01 : The "97% of 4/5 early surrenders are lost" statistic, even if affected by some survivor bias, is an insane statistic. 97%, that's a lot. Let's say that if in all those games, the players didn't have the ability to surrender and were forced to play it till the end, which resulted in 90% losses instead of 97%. That seems pretty realistic to me BTW, 4/5 ff before 15 means the situation is pretty bad, in general, and I found stats on reddit showing that in the 10% worst games, in terms of gold diff at a given time, or kill diff at a given time, your odds of winning are lower than 1%. The survivor bias is there, but the stat would probably still be pretty bad. The more questionnable thing is the source of the stats. People suck at stats, so it's hard to know what's true and what's not. 2.c) Also my answer to 11:01 : if you get +250LP just from not FFing, you're gonna be matched up with and against players 250LP higher than what you would be otherwise, and you'll just lose these games more often because it's a level that's higher than what you're worth. You always end up in the elo you belong after playing enough games. Not FFing doesn't make you a better player. It might speed up your climb very slightly (≈+0.4 LP per game), but that's it. 2.d) What's the formula to get to that 70% WR ? You can't just say "this is true because of maths" without showing the maths. And this doesn't take into account the fact that no matter how fast you climb, with or without FF, you're eventually just gonna reach the elo where you belong and stop climbing, because what's truly required to climb and play at a higher level is to get at a higher level yourself, back to the previous point (2.c). Conclusion : There's definitely a middle ground where players can actually *think and analyse the game rationnally* before making a decision rather than act on an emotionnal standpoint like the FF and never FF cultures are. What are the odds of victory ? How fun is the game ? For me, for my teammates ? Are my teammates able to create win conditions ? Is there still anything to learn from that game ? These interrogations should be necessary before taking any FF/noFF decision, and the answers made in a fair and critical manner. 15:53 : I agree, I don't expect the average LoL player to display such quality of judgement, but just saying no by default can only be worse because none of these interrogations are even being made. What I find even worse is when players advocate for even harder FF votes or suppress them completely, like 4/5 wasn't already enough to ask for an FF to pass. I believe some more flexible adjustments could be made, like, for example : A) showing players their calculated odds of winning (preferably based on LoL statistics accounting for a number of parameters like : gold diff, XP diff, elo, champs, player's winrates in X conditions, items' winrates against X, objectives, game duration etc.). But yeah, people suck at stats, so yeah... Like any such idea, it could be a good idea, but only if implemented correctly. B) counting duos as a single vote C) if an inter gets reported in game, by enough (2-3) players (where 2 reports from 1 duo = 1 report), his FF vote isn't counted. D) players could have a limited amount of "FF stacks" that refresh every X number of games (like ARAM rerolls) to give FF votes more value and dissuade FFing too easely, or instead of "stacks", they could add a separate resource for FF votes only. The earlier the vote, the more it costs. E) FF votes could be weighed by notation, if I really wanna FF, I'll put 10 in the FF vote, if I really don't I'll put 0, and if I'm not sure or don't care, I'll put 5 or something in the middle, and a certain threshold (≈35?) of the total sum would be needed for the FF vote to pass. F) if FF votes were weighed by notation like explained previously, each FF point would have a cost in an "FF resource" that you can only gain by playing games, or through a system that evaluates the pertinence of your votes (that last part could be harder to implement and lead to problems) G) I also can agree with the solutions at 15:08 : - the 5/5 ff vote requirement pre 20 could be understandable, even though I'm not 100% on board, it doesn't seem an excessive change either, - and, even though I can't fathom how people can hate the FF box so much, I wouldn't care if it were displayed another way, if it solves the problem for them, why not.
The main flaw with League of Legends is you can't force Random player who don't know each other to work together. That is the core Rot of the video game. Team base games only work flawlessly when you have a group of friends. The game it self when it first came out evolved around every player for them self's. When Riot started using it as a sport that's were the Core started to Rot.
Another problem is people don’t differentiate between normals and ranked anymore. People play normal games like they’re on stage at the world finals. Surrender vote should not exist in ranked. However, the surrender vote should be much easier to pass in normals. I can no longer play a casual game of summoners rift. It’s impossible when everybody has their head so far up their own ass, they’ve forgotten there’s more to playing a video game than winning it. Rest in peace casual normal games, off-meta picks and builds, and being able to try a new champion without being excoriated by the 3 million mastery point Jax otp who’s currently serving a ranked suspension on his main account. The community is way too competitive.
Since playing league the last couple of weeks after taking a break for several years. I've noticed that even with bad or rough laning that you only really know how the game can go after you start having several team fights. This is just in draft pick and not ranked but I've had teams make strong comebacks once we get some items and start to team fight, play objectives, and push middle when we can. I'm still getting the hang of the pace of the game and relearning what every champion is capable of, which is a lot of fun. I do notice people wanting to surrender every game, especially when it makes no sense in my mind.
I started the game a few months ago with this mentality, where I wouldn't surrender unless it was necessary. Despite this, and almost exclusively playing quickplay, I've managed to pick up a 23% surrender rate, nearly 1 out of every four games lost because my team gave up early, even though I try to avoid the ff. And this isn't a small sample size, either- I've played probably close to 1000 games since I started, and it never ceases to amaze me how quickly some people are willing to give up
Thing I most hate about playing league is matchmaking and champ select, so I'd rather have fun playing through 2h game even if I lose, than surring and matching for 6 games instead
i love you for this man, ive been playing this game from beggining of s3 and wow its been a ride man, ive been on and off, skipping 2-3 seasons, peaked challanger , played with friends, played with a local pro team, made new friends, met a lot of people... and im really glad that we have someone in the community, a pretty popular figure in this comunity who stands for what is right and has great opinions about the game. A really good point i heard you say somewhere was that the games u come back are the most enjoyable part in this game, ive had games that i would litterally jump from my chair and scream from happiness and fullfilment which u never get either from a ff15 from you or the enemy team. I would really like this community to be cleansed in a way that people truly see the beauty in this game. Keep doing what you're doing man, keep up the mentality, because i really dont want to lose my hope for this community which ive been a part of for 10+ years from my kid years and all the way to adulthood,
I play in the LAS server and it's wild in here. The ff mentality is so unbearable people are just fighting their teammates more than their enemies at this point, everyone's playing a blame game instead on focusing on playing good, trolling and spamming "ff" after dying like once in 10 minutes is unbelievably frequent. I really hope that in a close future people will get the message that if they want to win the game, then they should really play it instead of choosing to give it up and blaming anything but themselves. Loved the video, keep up the good content, greetings from Argentina!!
I think league was never played like chess. When i watch LCK, pros only play as if the only gameplay is to duke it out 5v5 around objectives as opposed to doing sneaky plays, looking for favorable teamfights, playing around death times, cooldowns, and playing the map. If you try betting in league games, a single kill skews the odds dramatically as if the game is pretty much over. People want to end games fast because games are just decided 5 minutes into the game, thats just how it is.
Since I began playing all the way to the moment I stopped, there is one thing that stayed in my head: "Never surrender!". My best memories of this game is that of a losing game where the enemy got cocky and made little mistakes up to a catastrophic one only for us to win it by a hair.
I agree with everything you said, i think your math is wrong (but still shows not ffing is better). It forgets the extra time that you get to play more games at a better win rate If we assume the average climbing player has a 55% win rate (leaning high for the point), out of 20 games where an ff is considered, an ffing player will lose 20 games, and at 15 minutes saved per game and 30 minutes to play a new game this player will have played 10 additional games. At a 55% win rate this player would have won 5.5 and lose 4.5 of those additional games. Considering the 20 original ffd games, this player will have an "ff impact" of -19 or 19 losses. For the no ff player, this means their "ff impact" needs to be higher than -19, meaning the win rate of a game must be lower than 1/21 (+1 win -20 losses, 21 total games) for it to not be worth playing or in percentage form 4.76%.
I used to try my hardest to win every game no matter the score but over the years the burnout of losing many games after trying my absolute best had caught up to me. It got worse over the past few years as it felt like more people would check out after 1-2 deaths in lane. I even started to think it was more than reasonable to give up and wait for the 15 minute FF as soon as a game felt lost. Eventually I had to admit to myself that I had become one of these frustrated players that was addicted to a game I no longer enjoyed and decided to quit playing all together. I think more and more players are finding themselves in the position I found myself in. Nobody who truly enjoys playing League would want to give up so easily.
The "net 250 lp" is not how net is calculated or used. Net is the sum of gains AND losses. If my paycheck is $500. My net is not $1000 because I prevented a loss of 500. If we do go with the math, it's actually a net loss of 4500 lp due to the 95 games lost
It's not the BIGGEST problem. The bigger problem is the matchmaking. Teams are not balanced. When someone who is elo inflated plays against someone who is at their actual rank or even worse smurfing. The skill level difference causes the top, bot, mid, or jungle to be 7k gold up at the end of the game. At lower elos like emerald, plat, or gold this difference is insurmountable in my opinion.
So I guess my 0/10 bot lane. Non existent jgler who’s been farming all game and somehow is still behind enemy jgler who’s been ganking non stop and a player who is literally just straight up inting running down mid to there base, IS MY FAULT
I would like to have an opt-out option for surrendering, where you just turn off the pop up and can only surrender by clicking the button that you see on escape. When you click that button you automatically vote yes everytime
I used to drag the surrender window to the upper right corner off screen, when I was still playing. Only a little corner still visible, next to the timer when you do it right. I know it's not a perfect solution, because it will have to time out for your teammates, but for me it was the only way to keep my mental when some yasuo was spamming it after every death.
@@leonardo56324 I always just drag it to bottom right corner where I dont see it at all.... I just wish it would stay there between games so I don't have to see the popup almost every game...
Proud member of the "Never FF Club" When I started playing with some friends, few months ago, I kept hearing things like "No I can't do it, it's impossible" or "It's definitely lost" and I really didn't understand why they were so negative. At the time I didn't get it 'cause I was a noob, now, I'm still a low-mid elo noob, making lots of mistakes, but I know for sure that there is (almost) always a way to bounce back if You try to and put the effort to make it work. Lucky battle/assasination, baron/elder steal, split push, sneaky end... There are just too many variables that can change the tide of the match, both skill and luck based, that FF is just a boring option.
Having watched abit of the video by now, ure spot on with a lot things but its not fair to compare league to a game like overwatch, in overwatch if things are going bad for you(troll comps/player skill difference/toxicity etc etc), youre gonna be let out of that ranked game really quickly since a clean sweep takes what, 15minutes?(included hero selection and wait times) In league, all the way from champ select, if your teammate(s) are typing and being hemoroids, you know you are in for 25-50min+ of pure agony since if only 1 person wants to lose the game is almost impossible to win, its very common to get to like 30min-ish even if u have someone who isnt playing to win, but ure just gonna lose anyways because the enemies eventually just rolls up with baron, 2+ inhibs and soul/elder and just caves your base in.
The community used to be a lot better in earlier seasons due to people not tilting so easily. Instantly wanting to give up/soft int games has become the new normal over the years. FF culture leads to more lane dependent picks that coinflip lvl1 then want to quit when it goes bad, lower game quality overall, players themselves having less fun because they only want to play when fed. Sad state for a community and a game. Make FF a tick box in tab menu at the least. This is what league needs.
I am stuck in this low elo, bronze hell because (yes I suck, but I'm improving and getting better) but because of certain teammates having a bigger ego then they think, and giving up as soon as a single death or one thing goes wrong. Ever since I've adopted your attitude, and tried to be a person of positivity in my games, I've been seeing nothing but improvements, small because hey, I'm in bronze, everyone there is bad and still figuring out the game, but improvements non the less. Thank you Azzapp
It's incredibly frustrating to face this issue. I'm also considering quitting because it feels like the game ends just as it's getting interesting. As someone who enjoys playing late-game champions, I find it disheartening that only 2 or 3 games in an entire day of continuous play actually reach level 18. I remember when the game was more balanced, giving everyone a fair chance. Nowadays, most games conclude around levels 12-13, with surrender votes being a common occurrence, either from my team or the opponents. For champions that thrive from mid to late or even very late game, this trend makes playing feel like a waste of time. Surrendering does have its place, but I often find that just as I start to make an impact, my teammates, realizing their early-game champions have lost their scaling, decide to give up. This diminishes the role of the Attack Damage Carry (ADC), which is critical for late-game success. The Early Champ's role is to either win early or ensure their ADC survives to let him carry the late game. Unfortunately, it seems many players focus solely on ending the game early for and by themselves. They are not interested in winning as a team. They want to be the sole reason themselves. And if they cannot do that... Moreover, ADC has now become a priority pick role, necessary just to queue up, similar to how support was back in the day. This shift speaks volumes about the current state of the game. I'm seriously contemplating the idea of a private server with a non-surrender mode. It would attract like-minded players and let those who prefer frequent surrenders play amongst themselves. This change could address many of the current frustrations.
Stopped playing league for a while, and came back after watching your shorts about the ff culture. Tried having fun while losing, as long as i played well, and it truly changed my way of enjoying the game. I even had fun yesterday on a ranked with my jungler running ghost ignite lol. Hope ppl will convert too.
You gave a lot of guarantees in this video without proper backup sources. How can anyone trust what you are promising? "Within this timeframe, X people will get accustomed to Y". Who says that? A lot of presented arguments in this video are the same, you try to debunk data without providing data yourself. It is a nicely made video, but to me it seems more of a "try to believe in the power of friendship" type of video then one that actually provides counter data to provide a debate on even ground.
Really glad you've been pushing this anti-ff culture recently, Azzapp. I don't know if it's because I'm an NA player or because I'm a 4fun player who doesn't go ranked, but I've always been of the opinion of never surrendering unless the game is so far gone in the favor of the enemy team that trying to play out the game would simply not be fun anymore for anybody on the team. I took like a 2 year break from the game, and it honestly really surprised me when I came back that people would surrender at the smallest inconveniences. I WANT TO PLAY THE GAME, DAMNIT, why are we surrendering so early when I'm playing Gwen into tanks and ranged champions? Even if it wasn't a good draft for us, I'm low elo, so anything can happen to turn the tides of the game. If I ever played ranked, I feel like this sentiment would be exacerbated even more because now I actually have an incentive to win rather than just playing 4fun. People simply have way too poor mental and want to ff ASAP.
Thanks for bringing attention to this. The surrender mentality is the thing that ruins my enjoyment when playing this game, more than anything I've ever encountered since I started playing at season 2. I can't believe I'm saying this but a small part of me actually misses the days where people would say psychotic things every few games like wishing I get cancer, or die, because even in those insanely toxic games, I still had a choice of just letting these insane comments fly past me as long as I was able to maintain positive mentality. The surrendering on the other hand, I have no control over. It's as if the only thing people EVER want to do in league these days is just press Yes on the surrender vote. Really hard to stay positive with that constantly happening, and I'm usually able to take a TON of crap before things get past my mental barrier while playing this game.
ive tried your recommendation for some time now and im happy to say its working. ive had multiple games where my team tilted early and i was able to keep them in and win (although most of the time i was the one fed one on the team)
I think the explanation behind FF culture is sadly very simple: - most people would rather blame their teammates instead of realizing that they made mistakes - because of this, people would not think the game is winnable, assuming their teammates are "impossible to carry" FF culture is just a projection of the mental bias making it easier to think "I was matched with 4 apes, get me out" rather than "how could I have played that better".
It is simply, but you are wrong. Actual reason is that this is a mother efin video game.With big majority of players playing like 1-2 games every day if not every week. People come here to have fun. When someone ints, or heck, even when they are turbo counterpicked, they dont have any fun, so they want to go next game where they will have fun instead of draging a game which they hate, just for some lp that in reallity means nothing.
Me, personally, got into league like a year ago and as soon as I started, I noticed that in a lot of games ppl would type ff 15 and ff early. Which was a wee bit strange for me as a CS player, where the conditions to ff are very strict, but over time I got used to it and didn't give it much thought, accepting it as a part of the league culture. But when I started watching ur vids a month ago or so I decided to try out the anti-ff strategy. And well... I found it a bit surprising I actually got positive results. Like, the other day I had Akali on top 0/15 vs a 11/3 Renekton and generally fed enemy team, when I had stats like 5/5/3, but in the end we somehow won that game with our team ending at 74/59 because we managed to win a couple of teamfights and objectives (low ELO btw). Thank you for making me change my ways. :)
I recently discovered you and your no ff mentality and i like it a lot, but i noticed (in my games at least max hemerald) when there is a carry in the team nobody likes to "defend" that said carry; I've seen a lot of games lost just because someone prefer to chase a kill instead of staying with carry and win immediately the team fight. Even when me or my friends give the solution in chat "Peel the adc is fed we can win" no one follow the advise just because they dont like the the play style; Me as a Mid laner who plays late game champs (syndra, ryze) i got flamed just because i changed my play style to save my carry, especially in games where I'm 0/3 because i prefer to scale and if i can help other to not get killed So i think one of the problems is that Player dont like to listen even when there is a winning condition. I dont really know if im wrong maybe its always part of the ff mentality
I’m not sure how to fix the 15 min ff because when 4 players have said they want to ff at 15 at that point they can just figure out who the odd man out is and instead of focusing on finding a comeback they’ll just flame the one person. Diamond-Emerald rank by far has the most quitters with the least game knowledge where these people are only playing tilted any if you mess up they no longer try to play around you and sabotage the game from the start. The only way to ever fix this kind of problem is the culture. Streamers destroyed this game by pushing for games to be ffed because they taught the entire low elo community that some games cannot be won no matter what you do, but they never explain to their viewers why it’s unwinnable or say what they would need to do for a comeback and how that might not be possible in that game, instead they just vote ff and flame like and other low elo player would. Azzapp and baus are some of the few personalities having a good impact on the game
What I want to see is make the surrender vote a bet. If you vote no and you lose game, you lose double lp. If you vote yes and win, you don't gain lp. Perfect way to encourage players to be less delusional when they're taking hostages or when they're surrendering in a winnable game
Here is my take on the FF vote. They should scale the time by rank rank: (Lmk what you think and I hope Azzap sees this) 1. Low elo (Iron to Gold): 5/5 Vote at 25 mins and 4/5 vote at 30 mins 2. Mid elo (Plat to Diamond): 5/5 vote at 20 mins, 4/5 vote at 25 mins 3. High elo (Diamond+): 5/5 vote at 15 mins and 4/5 vote at 20 mins. So minus 5 minutes by elo. And say if there is an overlapping gap, give the surrender vote with the longest time to the overall game. So like a Gold player in the mid elo group. This would be an amazing change and seems very logical to force low elo mindset out. Low elo truly has the weakest and most bad mindsets, logically so.
The biggest problem is allowing people to create multiple accounts. If people get banned they just make a new account. Therefore there are no consequences to people's poor actions in the game. The sad part is League is a great game with a terrible/toxic player base. If we could have accounts tied to ip address or a phone number it would eliminate the majority of smurfs and there can be actual consequences to people's actions in the game. In a perfect world our game accounts would be tied to some form of government ID or social security. The lack of consequences also feeds into everything, including ff culture. Who cares about their account or mmr when they can just make a new one.
You know what would be good to add too ? A box that you can check in the options that says "automatically vote no to surrender/hide the surrender vote box" or something like that. This way real ones aren't bothered by the pop-up
problem is not about surrender. problem is when some idiot hope to win in 20:3 score at 15 min. also some dont even dont try to press tab and check minion scores and vision scores. not surrending is a same as intention feeding in some case.
My friend tried to teach me the "never surrender" mentality back when we first started together, took me a year to fully understand it. While that was going on, he got Plat instantly when I (not kidding btw) demoted to IRON 4. I made it out the trenches with a duo to prevent surrendering.
I only dodge when I dont like the champion i am playing against. Rito has released a number of champions feel so unfair and unfun to play against (even when you win) that I just dont wanna deal with their bs
My proposition is similar to one I have seen here in the comments, but takes it a step further: You have a setting (e.g. called "never ff") that you can turn on in the settings just like all chat and stuff. If you have this turned on, you wont see any surrender votes, popup, chat message etc. and will always auto-vote no. Furthermore, if there is at least 2 players with that setting on the team, the surrender vote disappears. There's a message at the beginning stating that no ff vote will ever succeed, therefore no one can even try. This could have a feedback loop effect: The more players use this option, the more players have to play out the games without any surrendering options, the more they realize that surrendering is almost always bad, the more players turn on the option and so on.
![[[OFFICIAL MV]] เอิ้นขวัญให้อ้าย- อ๊ะอาย สกุณาพร | ค่ายเพลงเป็นหนึ่ง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/83x6L3X3qh0/mqdefault.jpg)
Since I have started talking about this issue I have noticed a minor change in the game. The point did reach a lot of good faith people who tried it out and reported incredibly positive feedback. Pretty much every solo q game I play people reference "never ff", "try hard" mentality to me which is a big deal. It means that the opinions have seeped into the community and that there is hope. If you have any arguments or criticism feel free to post them below, I welcome all sorts of feedback. Let's make this community awesome and the game as fun as it can be in all it's glory.
I'm with you on red pill never surrender but to say it's the number one reason games are lost is wildly WILDLY off base.
Edit: there needs to be a LP loss prevention for people who vote no.
Regarding the trolls in champion select (disco nunu, jungle yuumi, etc.). I would very much like it if Riot had some sort of list of champions that are considered troll picks and implement a way to detect them mid-game.
E.g. Your team has a jungle, the jungle picks a normal jungler. Someone else on your team picks yuumi with smite. Now, at this point that potential troll might actually be cooking something illegal. Now attach to that potential troll some tracker which follows their impact on the game.
--Does the troll skyrocket in deaths?
--Does the troll take camps during the early game from your jungler?
--Some other relevant tracker.
The game instantly ends if these things are noticed. Awards the opposing team a small token LP gain for having suffered through a bad quality game. The loosing team is not penalized with lost LP. The Troll is instantly banned for the rest of the day.
This should not be hard to implement.
We already have the roles, the champions and the metrics.
Just have to combine them and have some human check the troll pick list every once in a while to update it by removing/adding champions.
I agree a lot with your never ff mentality in anything below diamond atleast.(never got higher so cant judge) However something I've realized that is way worse than ff'ing is people straight up refusing to try and win. In my personal experience I have not felt like ff'ing was a huge part of my losses. In around 160 games I only had 1 ff that was completely unnecessary. (All others were us all dead and enemy hitting nexus) I way more often have very winnable games and people refusing to play for their Wincon and just doing whatever. Maybe im just to shit at the game to create winning plays but idk what i should do when my team tries to facecheck the 5 item toplaner at 25min and that instantly loosing the game even though we couldve easily just cleared waves. Tldr sry for being shit at explaining but ppl give up without ffing which makes the game feel shit so to me its more just a looser mentality rather than ff culture.
@@Alliancewolf another one would be proximity to an even or player favored teamfight then if that distance increases without abilities being used it means they were baiting teammates.
I understand the never ff mentality, as I nearly never surrender myself, I'm an ornn main and we scale harder then fresh wine.
However it's more of a mental battle.
Leauge players have a bad enough mental as is. But then you get the low elo lane bully players.
They loose lane? Now they know for the rest of the entire game they will not have fun.
Now you have players who are playing worse because they are tilted 3 minutes into the game. And useful pings to help your team go out the window when you have to mute bad players.
Now you have a tilted team who doesn't play for the group just trying to get a kill for fun.
It's not that it's unwinnable, but I understand those who wanna leave a team that looses early, I don't wanna babysit a 2 million mastery janna that's been hardstuck this rank for the last 7 seasons.
Nor wish to help teammates I've been essentially forced to mute to focus on my own lane and jungler.
People are playing League as it was a loot box, any bad opening just make people rage and wanting to just go open the next box instead of actually playing and enjoying a match.
Botlane goes 0-3 pretty much fast as possible and our jungler goes “ff15 plz” and starts “testing things”. Aka running into enemy jungle feeding. After all that, we EASILY won the single legit team fight of the match. The game was easily winnable, if not for people mentally giving up as soon as that 0-3 was on the board
@@ragerontilt4778 The problem are champs hyperscaling from those 3 kills, Katarina roaming bot for three free kills? Inplayable game for mid and bot since Kata now is fed and will 1 shot everything from now on, oh top fed the darius? welp GG go next
@@GrEEnF1Re1 the missed the back half where i said we beat them anyway if people aren't just running it down, but cherry picking is cool i guess.
@@ragerontilt4778Thats not cherry picking is literally reality. Some champs are disgusting with 3 kills and it only goes downwards ( and especially if the matchmaking is rigged and they are higher elo than your entire team)
@@GE_Photon_LordMatchmaking is rigged. On other news, the moon landing was fake and the Earth is flat
I've been trying the no ff mentality recently. It didnt have much impact in my number of wins/loses, but IT HAD A BIG impact im my enjoyment of the game, it is way more fun to focus in what you can do to improve/impact, than to be tilted by loses.
100% i agree with you. Im not particularily good and want to keep getting better and know i have a lot to improve. But i've had WAY more fun as a result.
it takes time to affect your wr. trust me.
Same here, the game seems more playable and challenging. Also Hwei did this
@@sooslokosvivemSaaame! I absolutely love hwei and it feels so satisfying to outplay someone as hwei. The only person i 100% struggle against is Fizz.. not fun against him but even against yone its interesting!
real
Ibrahimović would never surrender
This man summed it up.
I bet nikola jokic doesnt ff either
Ibrahimović doesn't do a surrender
The surrender does an Ibrahimović
It ruins botlane for me. Most of the champs there aren't even champions before reaching 2 items (so minute 20 or so). I rarely have a game that didn't already have 2 surrender votes by the time we can actually start team fighting.
It also creates a game, where people pick the strongest lane bully, flip the game and FF15 if they lost. It's so unfun.
I can relate to this. ADC is an absolute nightmare role to play. Even the contrary happens, when I finally get strong, and before I can even use my strength, the other team FFs. So lame
just get monk mindset (: and /mute all on first toxic ping😊
@@zacharywolfgangbecker2386you are gonna get oneshot anyway if enemy team is fed, you aren't gonna make any difference
As a top laner who used to spam ff after failing to lane bully my opponent I realize my mentality is why toplane often feels useless. If all you want to do is ff when you start falling behind then no shit the roles that have delayed value (top and bot) are both gonna feel shitty and blame everyone else
WRONG. ADCS SUCK IN LATE GAME
What about a personal option that you can disable the surrender popup and it'll be automatically considered as a no for all of your games unless changed.
Yes please I want this
YES ADD THIS
Gets needed item to turn the game
Nexus explodes out of nowhere
RIOT! EMPLOY THIS MAN ASAP
That sounds really good, but I doubt they will do that
Another point to add: once you change your mindset, you will have fun in these "lost" games too.
Your fun shouldn't only come from winning, playing the game itself should be fun. This is why so many people play League and say it is miserable, they only have fun when they win.
I want to be challenged and overcome that challenge.
I take a 40 min close game that I lose, where we almost made a comeback, over a 15min complete stomp where I win EVERY TIME.
It's just more fun, never surrender
It's like playing a souls game for the first time. You get to the boss(or get killed along the way), die, reflect on where you messed up, improve and do better next time. And once you succeed, you feel the happiness and fulfillment rushing to your head and you enjoy the game more.
couldn't said it better 👍
Sorry, but i fail to find any fun in being oneshot on cooldown by (insert an asassin here) for 40 minutes, even if we win. +20 lp is not worth the 30 minutes of gray screen.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845 This is literally why I have dumped so many hours on those games because of the challenge and overcoming it. Same thing with League.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845 but the thing is you get stomped by the boss for half an hour and then you beat him, in league every single dark souls "death" is half an hour. Also in dark souls you rely on yourself and noone else, and the enemy(boss) itself is always the same difficulty which is consistency which is enjoyable to learn
Regarding the solution: I like the tick box idea, however I think as a further barrier to FF’ing, the pop up should remain, but with a catch. That is, if enough people have ticked the box, THEN the pop up appears.
That way someone who ticked the box early out of tilt but forgets to untick when they realize the game is winnable won’t randomly FF a game.
my thoughts exactly; i'd love to see this implementation
but taht's the point. You tilt ff once, lose a free game, you don't tilt ff twice
maybe implement a system where if someone starts an ff vote their team has a set amount of time to react to it, and if a ff doesnt go thru all ticks instantly go away
@@tekstego9654 it could get unchecked if an FF doesn't go through in like 1-2min
Isolating yourself from the win/lose aspect of the game, and playing it for the sake of playing a cool computer game is the best thing you can do.
As a Master tier player, my character pool is full of scale/stack characters. Every time surrender pop up shows, it drives me crazy. I 100% guarantee you if my teammates trust me more than surrender pop up, I would single handedly won for them most of my lose matches.
they forgot late game champ exist...and they even forgot to play on late game as they keep surrendering early. How many times my Ryze is completely useless because they expect me to do bazillion damage on early while his damage spike is basically mid to late game where he had at least 3 or 4 (boots not included) to deal decent damage
@@imanjx2914not only that most champs nowadays scale even slightly besides a handful that fall off most of the time by just playing the game you end up winning off of comp alone without infinite scalers or kass/kayle/ryze
Sure, but most of the games (at least plat>emerald, were I am) people are just plain toxic and force you to play 45min games allthough they are 1-15 on a full tilt rampage. Your scenario would also be frustrating as a late game champ.
Me, me, me, me, me. It's all about me and me. Ask yourself a question. Did you do anything that will make rest of your team not trusting you? Because I can bet that your "me, me, me, me" attidue made at least some of them to say "fuck it, I'm not going to play this shit, let me out".
Because it's one thing to play scalling champ and the other thing is to be selfish dickhead.
otp aurelion sol here, i have a 67%wr acc in d4 rn, peaked master last season, i cant get out of emerald on my "main" account (the acc has existed for quite a bit of time and tbh seems like old mmr screwed it a bit, or idk). The thing is i notice a very real difference of game quality between my diamond acc and emerald stuck one, the people i meet in ranked on d4 are just so much more willing to play the game and also rarely troll than on the other acc, its been this way since placements so its not an elo diff, i literally get different people, even the guy who spams cringe stuff in champ select ends up caring for the game and mutes all rather than spam ff/afk. I cant win games with 20 kills in emerald because player have such a bad mentality thinking they know everything about the game and proceed to either ff prematurely or int? Most of these guys dont even mean to do that they just do it because "get me out XD lol unplayable" and some of them even admit they do it and what can i do then. Idk if there's a way to prevent this, but i genuinely think there's a fallcy in the system about matchmaking or some stuff that just puts u in a sort of losers q, otherwise how can i explain that im 50% wr stuck in plat-emerald on an acc while climbing fairly easy in diamond at the same time?
"main" acc: www.op.gg/summoners/euw/%CE%91%CF%85relion%20Sol-STARS
second/"smurf" acc: www.op.gg/summoners/euw/Cleurnit-EUW
I quit the game in s7 and came back to play normals with friends last October. I was shocked with how easily even they wanted to surrender. I told them that if their idea of the game is to stomp lane and hope the other team surrenders they might as well go to a casino instead of playing. Since then we never surrender even if we int our asses off and its hella fun cuz we actually win maybe 10% of those unwinable games (total guess btw but it feels that way) its also more fun to try and beat the fuckers that stomped us early… so glad we aren’t the only ones and people like you help the community change their mindset for the better!
winning that completely hopeless no comeback game from a single pickoff/teamfight that started a snowball is one of the best feelings in this game
I literally had the same experience as you. Stopped playing around season 7 and came back in October. One of my friends particularly would get so tilted if he lost lane and would immediately ask us to surrender at 15. Even if we were ALL WINNING our lanes. I was like, bro are you serious?
@@ripztubig4457 the mentality aspect of the game has fallen off a cliff...
@@nikolaitodorov1234 the community is too toxic for me to want to come back Tbh.
@@nikolaitodorov1234 glad you're having fun not ff'ng your bronze normals games mate :)
I've literally never understood why surrender is even a thing. I mean, running it down mid is not allowed but exploding your own nexus is? HOW are we not noticing something's wrong here? "Well in surrender everyone agrees", yea, in 5 people surrender sure, but if there's even only one person willing to play the game, are the other 4 allowed to run it down mid? No, so why should they be allowed to instantly explode the nexus, which is even worse? Surrender is objectively the MOST toxic behaviour you can have in League, it's just normalized for no reason.
4 people vote one thing, one votes the other, the one person is more important than the four?
@@geoDB. Yes, you start soloq, you have to finish the game, you know it before queueing up. You have to respect every single person of your team, if someone (even one person) wants to play a winnable game (so every soloq game) you have no right whatsoever to take away his lp
Dota has no surrender you should try it
You should look up the word "objectively", m oron.
@@harrystyles7466 Your comment is actually very interesting, 'cause it highlights how people that are toxic in one field, tend to be toxic in general (wasting other people's time, 0 arguments, insulting). Thanks for proving my point
Voice chat would save league. Even with all the bullshit in the game and the amount of toxicity there is, having an actual team-oriented experience where people can see if someone is truly trolling or not would make things sm better
Most people would be less toxic and the small minority that would be more toxic u can just mute. VC needs to be in League it would make the game a lot more fun and interesting and might even let u know new cool people.
@@skeley6776 real.
I remember when I first started playing a few months back I was part of the ff 15 culture since that's just how I thought the game was supposed to be. After learning more about the game and watching your vids I decided to stop surrendering and it's incredible how much more fun the game is when you don't give up immediately. This morning my Katarina rage quite after dying repeatedly in lane like an idiot and despite it being a 4v5 we almost brought it back. Even though we didn't win I think everybody that played it out had a good time. Not to mention I've had crazy comebacks in seemingly unwinnable games that never would have happened if I gave up. So even if this video doesn't end up changing most peoples minds, I want you to know that your words have at least changed one player for the better.👍
Honestly i first saw you in a few guides i looked at on mobafire, only for my brother to point out you are balkanian and i instantly remembered your name, then i saw you throwing advice and speeches on reels, and i recognised that supposedly good balkanian velkoz player, i gave them a listen and unironically my perception on the entire game is changed by applying a pragmatic and reasonable way of thinking that i think we are all capable of, but is overwhelmed but impulsive and rough emotion competitiveness causes.
I can once again enjoy this game, and many, many others, its the way of thinking that needs change and not the problem.
Thank you azzap, it really helps more than you think to see you dont need theatrics or controversy to make it and have fun, it really does.
Hvala brate, nazdravlje
the surrender at 15 not needing 5 people anymore is one of the worst updates ever, its unbelievable how riot cant make one single good update
its pretty good option
I agree as someone who just recently got into DOTA 2. The game doesn't have a surrender option unless you are on a 5 stack and they have a pretty harsh consequences on AFK/Leavers. So you are incentivized to playout >40 minute game or else you'll get punished. The game heavily revolves around counters. Heroes picks specifically to counter a hero, items that can counter a hero and items that can also counter said items. Making the game heavily requiring teamwork.
Yes there are still flaws on the game like the community is arguably more toxic than League and spending over 40 mins per game with them can still be exhausting. But that hit of dopamine where you win a game that is near unwinnable because of 1 good team fight where everyone on the team clutched it out for the win.
That's unfortunate that you kept getting toxic players in your games, I for one only get like a 2-5 games every 100 games. Maybe you have been put in losers queue, it's not like the loser queue of league (win/lose) but as in a queue for toxic losers and smurfs go and get matched together. It's completely different/separate from behaviour score. This just a heads up for you as you're new to dota. Glhf.
Yeah, I love that in Dota you can’t just surrender, people just don’t know how to use this option. There are games ofc that are unwinnable when enemies have 20k gold lead on 15-20 minute mark, they play as a team, you’re just a saver support and your team lacks any kind of composition but those games are as rare as BiS item drop in ARPG so most of losing games are winnable. And even if you still lost try to appreciate good moments from your last game, analyse your mistakes and enemies’ good plays, play the game and not just roll yourself a victory in roulette
If Riot balance was better, they tried harder people would care more about the game but as game gets older people care less
Coming off Dota/Dota 2, i feel like surrender being an option is already a set down, people want to FF after 1 death, now it might be that some matchups are already hard and that 1 kill sets it off the edge but this surrender mentality is terrible and i hope the players that love it they don't do it IRL.
Also, GIVE VOICE CHAT, we spent billions of years of evolution to learn how to communicate without gestures and i come to this game and the only option i got is spam pings.
honestly i rarely see anyone surrender anymore, few years ago it was much more often for me
im in Emerald 2
my God broo
I see the exact opposite in both ranked and norms. I have a couple accounts in varying ranks (One for each role in the game) and across high plat to high diamond FFing and giving up before 15 mins has increased drastically over the years. From almost never ffing to almost every "bad" game having at least one ff vote.
Phenomenal video, you and the Broken By Concept podcast are the two figures in the scene I see making the most positive changes, thanks for practicing what you preach. You are simultaneously teaching valuable lessons outside of league with this video and your philosophy as well.
bbc gang rise up
As someone who always FF even in the face of Victory, I respect your dedication to never surrender.
Ff culture will lose. Seeing this, you can ff now and join the winning side :P
Become a true winner, turn into the light and never surrender again 💙
That's dedication right there
Coming from HOTS where you can't surrender i absolutely agree with surrendering being bad for the game. I have experienced a lot of those 1 vs 4 surrender situations too and i can never understand why after queue, draft and 20+ minutes spend in the game players can't bother to spend another 10 or so minutes to give enemies an opportiunity to throw their lead.
The solution you provided at the end of the video with surrendering being hidden from other players is actually a 500 IQ way to solve this. The surrender box asking the question activly makes people think about surrendering, signals to them their teammates dont want to play and further makes them lose hope for a win as well as forces them into a confrontation with other players. People frequently get mad at the one or two players denying the surrender.
Because league is not hots. A team fight last a whole minute there, you can actually recover during the team fight. In lol, a team fight lasts about 8-10 seconds and it usually ends with a uberfed assasin/mage deleting everyone near him. I dunno what game azzap is playing, but the game feels more bursty and snowbally than ever. Enemy team has a fed kayn/Talon/Heca/Naafiri? Congrats, you don’t get to experience the game anymore because you’re playing adc and die to a wet fart from a 1/6 assasin jumping into you. And don’t get me started on drafting, especially in low elo.
@@mr.nobody4994 I feel like what you brought up here is a whole diffrent pack of worms. Bursty and overly snowballing champions are a big problem in league and i couldnt agree more with this part. My point about surrendering and throwing leads still stands tho. You may not have the ability to turn the game around against a fed enemy, but they still have the ability to throw their lead, feed you shut down, take fights with nubers disadventage, ignore your splitpushing toplaner for too long etc. The game may feel frustrating at that point but if you just try to keep being relevant and stick in the game for another 10 or 15 minutes you get a chance to turn a lose to a win. Small chance to win is better than a guaranted lose.
Very well edited video. I hope this issue won't flow under the radar. Something needs to change.
I used to duo with a friend a lot and we would NEVER ff with the two of us. So no vote ever made it passed us and that was truly the most enjoyable LoL experience I’ve had
Personally i would say lack of vc is the biggest problem of league but apart from that nitpick couldn't agree more
Just a tip about the pop up ff, u can drag out of the screen when it pops, so when they press ff again u won't notice
I agree with everything expect the buff/nerf point. The game has been suffering a ton from powercreep over the years and some of the older champs need help to keep up with the rest of the pack. Another good thing with buffs is that they are overall more exciting to the game then nerfs. I think they should keep up with more buffs then nerfs but ramp up the nerfs on some of the more prominent cases of champs that are on the spotlight for too long, instead of flipping it and having more nerfs over buffs
Buffs end up in damage creep which leads to faster team fights which makes the game less fun imo
Hi! First of all I absolutely agree with all the points you made in that video and I hope that it will be seen by as many LOL players as it's possible.
On the same topic I want to share my LOL experience so far.
From highschool I was a Dota and later Dota 2 player only. I started in an average elo and climbed as high as Titan (I believe to be an equivalent of gm/challanger in LOL, correct me if I'm wrong) throughout caring about the game, reviewing vods and playing with friends with the same attitude. In Dota there is a thing called behavior score which essencially is a number from 0 to 10k which represents how mentally stable a player is:D If you are a decent player(behaviour-vise, not talking about skill-expression) you will be at 10k period. If you afk, dc, sell ur items, intentionally feed etc. it will drop and essentially will queue you more with people "like you"(you can fix it, but you will struggle and see for yourself how "fun" it is to play with people like you). Also, "Surrender vote" is not a thing and games last around 20% longer than league's.
Sometime ago me and my friend decided to try out LOL and make it our main game. We were honestly shocked how league's community managed to be more toxic(which we didn't think was a possibility, tbh) and whiny. And IMO "FF" button is to be blamed for that. Unfortunately for League players, when we play it's impossible to surrender because 3-2:)
We won games with people who just decided to start running it down mid(like, an actual one, with 0-20, die-respawn-die-repeat) and games where we were down all objectives and games where the scoreboard looked as terrible as it can get. And as expected those games are SO FUN TO WIN. And we know that, coz in dota you can't ff, you HAVE to fight and HAVE to try(or suffer trying to get ur behaviour-score back:) ). And we LOST games that were so winnable you can put ur grandma in ur chair and she will win. THROWS HAPPEN.
And the same attitude we face at multiple different ranks (started from stuck in gold, now we hang around emerald-diamond). Going back to the toxicity I mentioned - people GIVE UP so fast and blame each other for ANY mistake regardless of it's actual impact on the game and on top of that have the AUDACITY to conclude that the game is won/lost at 5/10/15 minutes in fucking GOLD ELO, just how much of yourself you can think of, jeez.
Your shorts started to appear in my youtube feed and I absolutely LOVE and support the culture you are trying to spread! Keep it up! NEVER SURRENDER, let's make league great again!
P.S. How the fuck is MOBA this popular still doesn't have a voice comm is beyond our understanding as well, but that's a topic for another day. (typing out what and why you think the best call right now is at 40m mark when both baron/elder is up, someone is splitting, someone is dead and it all looks like chaos is NOT fun:D)
I think a lot of the issue is something you said near the end: people only play to win the game, and physically cannot enjoy it otherwise. I believe this is also why URF has degraded so much. It went from "oh what kind of funny cool things can I do with these champs?" to "alright I need to pick the most broken thing possible to have a chance at winning". This then propels other people who are "playing for fun" to also pick the "broken" champs and builds to have a chance at being able to play the game, which put it into a bad spot.
FF culture is very similar. When people put that surrender box up and subconsciously stop trying, others notice and do the same themselves. It's very infectious.
I'll admit I'm not the most mental proof player, and have started surrender votes on games we end up winning. I have my moments of weakness for sure, but NOTHING in League is more satisfying than winning a "lost" game.
I was just playing Clash with the bois and we were totally stomping a team with every dragon, all their towers, and a baron under our belt, but we made a few mistakes, got caught, gave shutdowns, and they came DANGEROUSLY close to making a comeback. We were so desperate, we had to sneak a backdoor while they were fighting at baron.
And that was roughly at mid Emerald ELO.
I also just wanna say I appreciate all the work you do, Azzapp, with this movement, but also Vel'Koz himself. He's the only mage I play, and I always enjoy it, even if I still feel like I have low impact lol
Aw, man, URF. I thought I'd find nostalgia a few days ago, but I only found a Taric who stunned me until I died over and over again
The best game I've ever played, the most fun I had was a season 5 match, we were loosing most of the game. It lasted 67 minutes and we did end up loosing but we made the enemy team work for it. Even with a loss I remember it clear as day. Thinking to myself after the match "Damn, that was a good game". Wasn't mad or disapointed. Just satisfied.
You saw this way more back in the day.
I played since season 2, and the games were more 40-50 minutes in length back then. I was a pretty low rank so perhaps my enemies/allies didn't know how to close out a game, but damn was it fun.
I remember playing a game where there was an enemy kha zix that was like 20+ kills and 3-4 deaths. At minute 50 if you walked 2 meters into jungle you get oneshot by him.
my whole team banded together, playing so well, warding, playing objectives, taking good fights and we managed to turn it around and win a 60+ min game.
And the whole team was non toxic, nobody complained or flamed, everybody was just giving their thoughts on best strategies to win.
Peak game performance.
@@jozokrstanovic9040 I myself started when Hecarim came out, idk the precise season but around season 2-3 so yeah, I was there bro. Damn I miss those days.
@@ChesterZirawin it was season 2
I started when Varus came out and that was season 2, hecarim came out earlier.
The ff mentality needs to go. I would personally in ranked love to see surrending go away. Ever since I've stopped giving up and just play my best there's always a turning point in the match where things start going in your favour like knocking out the enemy stronger members to allow your team to snowball back into a win or just in general working as a team in a team game (shocker) to win that unwinnable game.
Like an example of a game we didn't ff we almost lost. Like one more hit on nexus and would of lost. But we were just on the back burner farming and stopping enemy pushes for a good 10 15 mins to then allow us to get an ace and push and win the game. All it takes is abit of time or the right conditions to win. Never felt happier about a win
This video clip with Jankos is great example of what is actually going on with League. The game's being killed not by devs but by players. Game has became so much "power-creeped" (which is game dev issue imo but that's another topic) that approximately I believe 70%-80% players want to feel and be that "GODLIKE CARRY" and god forbid if they are behind. They will troll, surrender, cry in chat and just stop playing game in general. Modern League of Legends is plagued with so called "Naruto syndrome" players. They prefer to lose game, time and mental instead of letting somebody in their team to carry the game. Basically extreme narcissism in video game...
I have two suggestions id like to hear others thoughts:
1. Removing the option of surrendering from the solo/duo ranked games.
2. You can only play ranked if you keep a high honor level.
one of us must be living in an alternate reality... you're telling me that not only do your teammates vote yes, but they're even voting yes in winnable games?
Yea, this is definitely a high elo problem. Low elo is rampant with hostage.
this video has lots of massive unanswered issues. but i really like your idea about making the surrender unanimous on the scoreboard.
1. league is the most toxic community around bar none, the idea that suddenly they'll stop inting/afking after a month because "well they cant surrender" is crazy and completely underestimates how dedicated people can be to sabotaging themselves and others. T1's old videos are a great example of this.
2. the balancing of the game pretty much since mythics in season 9 has been continuously on a downward spiral and if you REALLY want to get players to try more and play harder, fixing those issues are far more likely to have positive results. 1 bad match in s14 vs 1 bad match in season 7 is night and day different. in the past, while some characters have had crazy power (like rengar 1 shotting people off jump for a whole split) all the meta champs are doing that and completely oppressing most other champions in the process, because you're either the best or not good enough.
3. equating korean gameplay culture to listening to k-pop is insane. you just said it's unreleated to how well they play but they get to play out early game more than any other region and that gives the chance to completely perfect it off more time spent playing it. plus toxicity doesnt have time to fester if the game is over in 15-20. sure someone might get mad and rage a bit but they dont have time to really tilt off the world and cause terrible games for people for the whole day.
4. your entire equation on how important those "winnable" games are is lacking so much information. firstly as you just said noone knows if the game is winnable, the enemies can always make a mistake. which is true, but statistically speaking getting an extra game each hour means i get to play an additional 2 games a day if i play only 4 hours. meaning instead of 4 games per day i get 6 games per day. after a whole week i've already played 14 more games than another me playing for 4 hours. statistically if i am only winning 55% of my games i get way more value out of more games than i do out of a few losses swapping over.
5. you say low elos dont know the game and therefore cant know if they'd win or lose sounds very much like asking for an elitest mentality because while i 100% agree with that statement itself it also means that they dont know how to staunch the bleeding. meaning when they lose it's going to be much more 1 sided as they dont have the skills to make a comeback at all.
The losing team can turtle and hope the enemy throws
*There is no play they can make to actively win the game*
This is not good games
I come from fighting games and one of the most fundamental and enjoyable things about that genre is losing, learning through badexperiences is one of the best things that can happen and is ESSENTIAL to improve, and what i've come to realize after playing league consistently for more than a year now is that league players don't want to learn, they mostly just want to win, but don't have motivation if the game doesn't snowball right away, and they stop trying if it doesn't go their way, and it's incredibly frustrating because they feel entitled to insult you or treat you badly for any mistake, when making mistakes, even at high level is essential to learn.
nah gotta keep up my 30% surrender rate
A tip a close friend told me "you only need 2 players with working brains to win the match", i was playing mid, my jungler went afk and i just won the game with only toplane playing, botlane was just feeding. Dont FF, thats bs.
But how can i win a game if my bot lane is always 0/10 every game i deserve to play in challenger but my elo is silver 4
Me too bro I'm iron but I bought challenger account cus bad teammates and yes I dropped to gold from challenger cus jg diff in 2 weeks istg
same
I always encourage my bot to go yasuo/yone combo, because everyone knows they scale with deaths. Thats how I maintain top ten Challenged in OCE.
That is exactly why I take the matter in my own hands and queue two accounts at the same time (1 support that I play with my feet and 1 adc). Unfortunately, I go 0/40 every game because of jungle diff. My teammates always hold me back no matter what.
i think one big factor to ff culture is that for a lot of people, winning is not the objective of the game, but getting fed and become a god, destroying the nexus is not as fun as killing the enemy team, so if they realise that they are not getting to enjoy the fantasy of being overpower, it doesnt matter that the game is winnable and my can carry me, surrendering is better because it lets them try again to get fed sooner.
absolutely, people below diamond don't even want to end games
Honestly even just implementing the surrender option on the scoreboard instead of being a popup would be a massive change. People emotionally vote yes after one bad thing happens when they didn't REALLY want to ff the game. And then they are hard committed to a yes vote and it's on everyone else to ff.
Thankfully I mostly duo queue recently and we both have anti-ff mentalities unless people are legitimately griefing and the game is miserable (to the point where ffing is more desirable than winning just to get away from shitty human beings) which only happens once every 20-30 games or so.
Duo queueing is easily the best solution to have complete control over whether the team can surrender or not.
I still remember how 10+ years ago my team had clear lead and we lose a single team fight. Surrender comes up, I press no and almost laugh at the idea. Vote goes through 4-1.
Honestly the only time I ff is when my whole team's just not feeling it anymore.
It's not like the people are raging/ inting/ or griefing.
They just all lost motivation that game after playing badly and are silently playing the game out going through the motions.
We've all been there. And it's okay. It's just a game. No point in playing if you're just bummed out and not feeling it.
Honestly, before the FF thing started, everyone who didn't want to play the game anymore and wanted to leave was forced to play a looong match with 4 others who wanted to play. They were told to suck it up and start crying, but now that the roles have reversed, suddenly that's a big problem.
What does stop you from alt F4 in that moment?
@@adstellerA ban? What kind of question is this pal. He just means that now we have an option to leave the game vs back then, which is good. Problem îs that its just too abused.
@@GE_Photon_Lord why should anyone one have the option to leave a "competetive" match early? (Normals aram etc. not included)
So if you alt F4 you ll get a bann. If you reached the point where you stop playing to the best of your abiletys just cose you wanna, go next. Should that one not also be punished with a timeout?
@@adsteller No lie, I don't understand. Your english is so broken. Also, no matter the gamemode, you should be able to ff. What's the difference between ranked and a normal game? Nothing besides LP gain. So you essentially play the exact same game. I dont see why you shouldnt be able to ff if you genuinely want to get out and dont care ab the LP loss.
And regarding to what I said earlier...no one wants to alf f4 the game because you get punished more besides the LP loss. So you have the option now to press ff instead of scooping. If ff wouldnt exist then this game would be even more broken, a lot of people would just leave without notice.
"If you reached the point where you stop playing to the best of your abiletys just cose you wanna, go next." - this is tilt, exhaustion or you genuinely cant win that game. If its one of the first two then you should be punished ONLY if you troll or grief. If you just press ff it's not a big deal and in fact it's your right to press it. But it's not justified, I agree.
@@GE_Photon_Lordyour argument make no damn sense
Go play pvp
I think the even bigger problem is that no one understands win cons and they can’t ever predict how a team fight will play out
That’s bullshit, mate.
The only reason you think this is because you play a selfish soloq champ that can always play the game: velkoz support, you need a better perspective. Most games aren’t worth playing or are literally unplayable for other roles/champs
I gotta say I'm a player that abuse surrender, not only in League, but in any competitive game. I've seen some people saying that not ffing helped them to enjoy the game, and I will give it a try, in a few weeks I will came back and edit this comment with the results(I hope I don't forget about it)
it’s just a fatherless generation problem
I had a dad, so surrender is never an option, he taught me that
Enjoy the 4v5 then i just go next acc
The problem with solo queue is the amount of garbage that's playing ranked instead of learning the game before they play competitively. Riot needs to do what Valve did with Dota2 and add at least a 100hour unranked playtime counter before ranked play, for every new champion played add another 20hours on top, for that specific champion to be unlocked into ranked play. That'd fix most issues in my opinion, FF culture probably to a degree as well. The more knowledge a player has, the less they're inclined to prematurely give up when the game is winnable. This would also fix the problem with smurfing and de-ranking bot accounts.
I knew this was coming but man whole ass short movie?
It's kinda funny, but the data they had about "Failed FF's end up being lost anyways." I remember for the longest time people would just straight up run it down if their FF failed. Like they'd go to every lane feeding, and if you looked at their match history they did it tons without bans. That data was horridly skewed because of that kinda behavior for sure.
Sometimes people should just accept the game is lost ff and go next … i hate this never surrender mentality that some ppl have its just time waste
you're wasting your time either way, winning or losing doesn't matter. You're already wasting your time the moment you accept the game, better learn to enjoy lost games as much as won games. If you're seeing an imaginary number go up and think that's not a waste of time you got bigger issues than "never ff"
@@komolokko5117 i can only enjoy the game when i win thats the only reason to play win against others …
Bro, he straight-up addresses and counters your exact mentality in the video. Get better mental or stop playing ranked.
also the option that allow you to ,,turn off” ff pop would be nice
You literally look too deep into that problem, the reason why people surrender and give up early is that people are already done playing with monkeys ruining every game, dying every single minute and int. As long as there is no punisment for going 0-8 in every single game this problem will not be solved. How many years we have to wait for better ranked quality, just put those morons who int every game into separate queue or make them play normals instantly after inting the game.
I have a better solution: get into a game, play it, have fun, if after 10 minutes youre toxic, angry, wanna ff, dont play league. If you are having fun, keep playing.
Hey azzapp as someone who barely ffs this resonates with me. Although my surrender rate is low because I wanted to keep the rarely surrenders badge that professor gives prople that always vote no. I main top and usually i am 0 0 or 0 2 and play for objectives so it annoys me to no end when ppl only look at kda when league is an objective based game and about 80% of the games are a 50 50 where those with better mental end up winning
Was never huge on surrending but I know I did give up fairly often. the past week I have switched to no ff and I have not only been more fulfilled by games but even improvements to my own play
I've always been a fervent detractor of never FF culture, here's why : *Never FF is just as bad (if not worse) as FF culture.* They both have one thing in common which is at the very root of the problem : not analysing the game to assess the odds of winning *AND* of having fun. I insist, both the *pursuit of winning* and the *fun* are important and necessary. A game where players don't pursue victory is not a game, it's just a mess. A game where people don't have fun isn't a game either, it's just a responsability. 7:24 : players queue up for a game where they can have fun and pursue victory, they don't queue up for a mess where teammates pursue loss or your suffering, nor do they queue up for an unfun responsability they want no part in.
We all understand why FF culture is bad : games are thrown and wasted when they could definitely have been played out, won, and given fun to the players.
Now, here's why never FF culture is bad :
1) if the game is lost / inted hard enough for the game to be unwinnable and/or unfun for everyone, the never FFers keep the game hostage uselessly. It also empowers actual hostage takers who intentionnally keep the game going to make their team suffer.
1.a) Being held hostage in an inted game is truly the most frustrating experience in LOL. The suffering lasts for an unknown extended period of time that you can't control, with further disappointment and frustration for every next refused FF vote. 7:24 : Players don't queue up to get inted (not just a bad play or 2, but actual horrible/toxic gameplay) and hostaged like that. An FF where you could've won is a quick and small inconvenience in comparison : you lose the game, it's annoying, but you can instantly move on to whatever you want to do next in your life. *A hostaged game feels much worse than a bad FF.*
1.b) 7:05 : Hostaged games are also quite a common occurrence, 2 players or 1 duo are enough to hostage a game, I'd say you get inters/horrible players about once every 10 games, and as far as I'm concerned, since the dawn of LoL, this never FF mentality has always been a thing and it's always been hard to get an FF vote through, even in doomed games. In comparison, I quite rarely get games where people FF when we could win. Some players, or myself, might sometimes start an ff vote when things are going south, but it will very rarely go through and it's all like that vote never happened. Maybe that's specific to EUW, but I believe that's also where Azzapp plays too (maybe I'm wrong). *If about 1 in 15-20 games are hostaged, only about 1 in 30 get surrendered when they could've been won.* (and that's a very generous estimation for bad FFs, it's probably more around 1 in 100 in my experience).
*=> Hostaged games are worse AND more common than bad surrenders that go through, and that's mostly because of the never FF mentality.*
1.c) However, I also agree that about 20% games, at least 1 teammate gets tilted by the slightest inconvenience and will give up for a moment and soft int, but that won't necessarily lead to a game that gets FFed. Inting /soft inting and FFing are different things. I will always try my best even though I'm voting for an FF. You can't just throw FFing and inting in the same bag as an argument.
1.d) 12:51 : both pursuit of victory and fun are necessary, but you're only considering pursuit of victory here. Fun is what most players are looking for, pursuit of victory and competitiveness is just a means to that end. Let's also consider the part where players enjoy playing to improve, I myself find that part of the game pretty important, fun and motivating. This self improvement is still just a means to that end of having fun, and FFing faster also means playing more games, which means more experiences, especially when early game and laning phase are clearly the most important, impactfull and adjustable part of the game, where players have the most room to improve and learn while making a difference.
2) *FFing doomed games doesn't impact your climb.*
2.a) First things first, yes, some games are just doomed. Yes the ennemy team could throw, but your team is still even more likely to throw even harder. Yes, you could potentially win any given game. But statistically speaking, if you were to play that same doomed game a 1000 times over and over again, you would maybe only win it 10% of the time. Let's say we're at ±20LP gains. With such odds and gains, if you FF, you lose the game 100% of the time. That's -20LP as an expected value. If you don't FF, your expected value becomes -20*90%+20*10%=-16LP.
The only difference your never FF mentality achieves would then be +4LP on average for every doomed game. If 1 out of 10 games is doomed, that's +0.4LP on average. That's not gonna make any difference. And I don't believe the estimations I made for the sake of this example are unrealistic.
2.b) 10:01 : The "97% of 4/5 early surrenders are lost" statistic, even if affected by some survivor bias, is an insane statistic. 97%, that's a lot. Let's say that if in all those games, the players didn't have the ability to surrender and were forced to play it till the end, which resulted in 90% losses instead of 97%. That seems pretty realistic to me BTW, 4/5 ff before 15 means the situation is pretty bad, in general, and I found stats on reddit showing that in the 10% worst games, in terms of gold diff at a given time, or kill diff at a given time, your odds of winning are lower than 1%. The survivor bias is there, but the stat would probably still be pretty bad. The more questionnable thing is the source of the stats. People suck at stats, so it's hard to know what's true and what's not.
2.c) Also my answer to 11:01 : if you get +250LP just from not FFing, you're gonna be matched up with and against players 250LP higher than what you would be otherwise, and you'll just lose these games more often because it's a level that's higher than what you're worth. You always end up in the elo you belong after playing enough games. Not FFing doesn't make you a better player. It might speed up your climb very slightly (≈+0.4 LP per game), but that's it.
2.d) What's the formula to get to that 70% WR ? You can't just say "this is true because of maths" without showing the maths. And this doesn't take into account the fact that no matter how fast you climb, with or without FF, you're eventually just gonna reach the elo where you belong and stop climbing, because what's truly required to climb and play at a higher level is to get at a higher level yourself, back to the previous point (2.c).
Conclusion :
There's definitely a middle ground where players can actually *think and analyse the game rationnally* before making a decision rather than act on an emotionnal standpoint like the FF and never FF cultures are. What are the odds of victory ? How fun is the game ? For me, for my teammates ? Are my teammates able to create win conditions ? Is there still anything to learn from that game ? These interrogations should be necessary before taking any FF/noFF decision, and the answers made in a fair and critical manner. 15:53 : I agree, I don't expect the average LoL player to display such quality of judgement, but just saying no by default can only be worse because none of these interrogations are even being made.
What I find even worse is when players advocate for even harder FF votes or suppress them completely, like 4/5 wasn't already enough to ask for an FF to pass. I believe some more flexible adjustments could be made, like, for example :
A) showing players their calculated odds of winning (preferably based on LoL statistics accounting for a number of parameters like : gold diff, XP diff, elo, champs, player's winrates in X conditions, items' winrates against X, objectives, game duration etc.). But yeah, people suck at stats, so yeah... Like any such idea, it could be a good idea, but only if implemented correctly.
B) counting duos as a single vote
C) if an inter gets reported in game, by enough (2-3) players (where 2 reports from 1 duo = 1 report), his FF vote isn't counted.
D) players could have a limited amount of "FF stacks" that refresh every X number of games (like ARAM rerolls) to give FF votes more value and dissuade FFing too easely, or instead of "stacks", they could add a separate resource for FF votes only. The earlier the vote, the more it costs.
E) FF votes could be weighed by notation, if I really wanna FF, I'll put 10 in the FF vote, if I really don't I'll put 0, and if I'm not sure or don't care, I'll put 5 or something in the middle, and a certain threshold (≈35?) of the total sum would be needed for the FF vote to pass.
F) if FF votes were weighed by notation like explained previously, each FF point would have a cost in an "FF resource" that you can only gain by playing games, or through a system that evaluates the pertinence of your votes (that last part could be harder to implement and lead to problems)
G) I also can agree with the solutions at 15:08 :
- the 5/5 ff vote requirement pre 20 could be understandable, even though I'm not 100% on board, it doesn't seem an excessive change either,
- and, even though I can't fathom how people can hate the FF box so much, I wouldn't care if it were displayed another way, if it solves the problem for them, why not.
The main flaw with League of Legends is you can't force Random player who don't know each other to work together. That is the core Rot of the video game. Team base games only work flawlessly when you have a group of friends. The game it self when it first came out evolved around every player for them self's. When Riot started using it as a sport that's were the Core started to Rot.
Another problem is people don’t differentiate between normals and ranked anymore. People play normal games like they’re on stage at the world finals. Surrender vote should not exist in ranked. However, the surrender vote should be much easier to pass in normals. I can no longer play a casual game of summoners rift. It’s impossible when everybody has their head so far up their own ass, they’ve forgotten there’s more to playing a video game than winning it. Rest in peace casual normal games, off-meta picks and builds, and being able to try a new champion without being excoriated by the 3 million mastery point Jax otp who’s currently serving a ranked suspension on his main account. The community is way too competitive.
Since playing league the last couple of weeks after taking a break for several years. I've noticed that even with bad or rough laning that you only really know how the game can go after you start having several team fights. This is just in draft pick and not ranked but I've had teams make strong comebacks once we get some items and start to team fight, play objectives, and push middle when we can. I'm still getting the hang of the pace of the game and relearning what every champion is capable of, which is a lot of fun. I do notice people wanting to surrender every game, especially when it makes no sense in my mind.
I started the game a few months ago with this mentality, where I wouldn't surrender unless it was necessary. Despite this, and almost exclusively playing quickplay, I've managed to pick up a 23% surrender rate, nearly 1 out of every four games lost because my team gave up early, even though I try to avoid the ff. And this isn't a small sample size, either- I've played probably close to 1000 games since I started, and it never ceases to amaze me how quickly some people are willing to give up
Thing I most hate about playing league is matchmaking and champ select, so I'd rather have fun playing through 2h game even if I lose, than surring and matching for 6 games instead
i love you for this man, ive been playing this game from beggining of s3 and wow its been a ride man, ive been on and off, skipping 2-3 seasons, peaked challanger , played with friends, played with a local pro team, made new friends, met a lot of people... and im really glad that we have someone in the community, a pretty popular figure in this comunity who stands for what is right and has great opinions about the game. A really good point i heard you say somewhere was that the games u come back are the most enjoyable part in this game, ive had games that i would litterally jump from my chair and scream from happiness and fullfilment which u never get either from a ff15 from you or the enemy team. I would really like this community to be cleansed in a way that people truly see the beauty in this game. Keep doing what you're doing man, keep up the mentality, because i really dont want to lose my hope for this community which ive been a part of for 10+ years from my kid years and all the way to adulthood,
I play in the LAS server and it's wild in here. The ff mentality is so unbearable people are just fighting their teammates more than their enemies at this point, everyone's playing a blame game instead on focusing on playing good, trolling and spamming "ff" after dying like once in 10 minutes is unbelievably frequent. I really hope that in a close future people will get the message that if they want to win the game, then they should really play it instead of choosing to give it up and blaming anything but themselves. Loved the video, keep up the good content, greetings from Argentina!!
I think league was never played like chess. When i watch LCK, pros only play as if the only gameplay is to duke it out 5v5 around objectives as opposed to doing sneaky plays, looking for favorable teamfights, playing around death times, cooldowns, and playing the map. If you try betting in league games, a single kill skews the odds dramatically as if the game is pretty much over. People want to end games fast because games are just decided 5 minutes into the game, thats just how it is.
League community should compare high elo games with high elo games in HOTS where FF doesnt exist
Since I began playing all the way to the moment I stopped, there is one thing that stayed in my head: "Never surrender!". My best memories of this game is that of a losing game where the enemy got cocky and made little mistakes up to a catastrophic one only for us to win it by a hair.
I agree with everything you said, i think your math is wrong (but still shows not ffing is better). It forgets the extra time that you get to play more games at a better win rate
If we assume the average climbing player has a 55% win rate (leaning high for the point), out of 20 games where an ff is considered, an ffing player will lose 20 games, and at 15 minutes saved per game and 30 minutes to play a new game this player will have played 10 additional games. At a 55% win rate this player would have won 5.5 and lose 4.5 of those additional games. Considering the 20 original ffd games, this player will have an "ff impact" of -19 or 19 losses.
For the no ff player, this means their "ff impact" needs to be higher than -19, meaning the win rate of a game must be lower than 1/21 (+1 win -20 losses, 21 total games) for it to not be worth playing or in percentage form 4.76%.
I used to try my hardest to win every game no matter the score but over the years the burnout of losing many games after trying my absolute best had caught up to me. It got worse over the past few years as it felt like more people would check out after 1-2 deaths in lane. I even started to think it was more than reasonable to give up and wait for the 15 minute FF as soon as a game felt lost. Eventually I had to admit to myself that I had become one of these frustrated players that was addicted to a game I no longer enjoyed and decided to quit playing all together. I think more and more players are finding themselves in the position I found myself in. Nobody who truly enjoys playing League would want to give up so easily.
The "net 250 lp" is not how net is calculated or used. Net is the sum of gains AND losses. If my paycheck is $500. My net is not $1000 because I prevented a loss of 500. If we do go with the math, it's actually a net loss of 4500 lp due to the 95 games lost
It's not the BIGGEST problem. The bigger problem is the matchmaking. Teams are not balanced. When someone who is elo inflated plays against someone who is at their actual rank or even worse smurfing. The skill level difference causes the top, bot, mid, or jungle to be 7k gold up at the end of the game. At lower elos like emerald, plat, or gold this difference is insurmountable in my opinion.
So I guess my 0/10 bot lane. Non existent jgler who’s been farming all game and somehow is still behind enemy jgler who’s been ganking non stop and a player who is literally just straight up inting running down mid to there base, IS MY FAULT
I would like to have an opt-out option for surrendering, where you just turn off the pop up and can only surrender by clicking the button that you see on escape. When you click that button you automatically vote yes everytime
I used to drag the surrender window to the upper right corner off screen, when I was still playing. Only a little corner still visible, next to the timer when you do it right. I know it's not a perfect solution, because it will have to time out for your teammates, but for me it was the only way to keep my mental when some yasuo was spamming it after every death.
@@leonardo56324 I always just drag it to bottom right corner where I dont see it at all.... I just wish it would stay there between games so I don't have to see the popup almost every game...
Started out with no ff mentality ever but over the last 2 years started ff ing and now I’m ffing almost every game for even minor fails. Sadge
Proud member of the "Never FF Club"
When I started playing with some friends, few months ago, I kept hearing things like "No I can't do it, it's impossible" or "It's definitely lost" and I really didn't understand why they were so negative. At the time I didn't get it 'cause I was a noob, now, I'm still a low-mid elo noob, making lots of mistakes, but I know for sure that there is (almost) always a way to bounce back if You try to and put the effort to make it work. Lucky battle/assasination, baron/elder steal, split push, sneaky end... There are just too many variables that can change the tide of the match, both skill and luck based, that FF is just a boring option.
Having watched abit of the video by now, ure spot on with a lot things but its not fair to compare league to a game like overwatch, in overwatch if things are going bad for you(troll comps/player skill difference/toxicity etc etc), youre gonna be let out of that ranked game really quickly since a clean sweep takes what, 15minutes?(included hero selection and wait times)
In league, all the way from champ select, if your teammate(s) are typing and being hemoroids, you know you are in for 25-50min+ of pure agony since if only 1 person wants to lose the game is almost impossible to win, its very common to get to like 30min-ish even if u have someone who isnt playing to win, but ure just gonna lose anyways because the enemies eventually just rolls up with baron, 2+ inhibs and soul/elder and just caves your base in.
The community used to be a lot better in earlier seasons due to people not tilting so easily. Instantly wanting to give up/soft int games has become the new normal over the years. FF culture leads to more lane dependent picks that coinflip lvl1 then want to quit when it goes bad, lower game quality overall, players themselves having less fun because they only want to play when fed. Sad state for a community and a game. Make FF a tick box in tab menu at the least. This is what league needs.
I am stuck in this low elo, bronze hell because (yes I suck, but I'm improving and getting better) but because of certain teammates having a bigger ego then they think, and giving up as soon as a single death or one thing goes wrong. Ever since I've adopted your attitude, and tried to be a person of positivity in my games, I've been seeing nothing but improvements, small because hey, I'm in bronze, everyone there is bad and still figuring out the game, but improvements non the less. Thank you Azzapp
It's incredibly frustrating to face this issue. I'm also considering quitting because it feels like the game ends just as it's getting interesting. As someone who enjoys playing late-game champions, I find it disheartening that only 2 or 3 games in an entire day of continuous play actually reach level 18. I remember when the game was more balanced, giving everyone a fair chance. Nowadays, most games conclude around levels 12-13, with surrender votes being a common occurrence, either from my team or the opponents.
For champions that thrive from mid to late or even very late game, this trend makes playing feel like a waste of time. Surrendering does have its place, but I often find that just as I start to make an impact, my teammates, realizing their early-game champions have lost their scaling, decide to give up. This diminishes the role of the Attack Damage Carry (ADC), which is critical for late-game success. The Early Champ's role is to either win early or ensure their ADC survives to let him carry the late game. Unfortunately, it seems many players focus solely on ending the game early for and by themselves. They are not interested in winning as a team. They want to be the sole reason themselves. And if they cannot do that...
Moreover, ADC has now become a priority pick role, necessary just to queue up, similar to how support was back in the day. This shift speaks volumes about the current state of the game. I'm seriously contemplating the idea of a private server with a non-surrender mode. It would attract like-minded players and let those who prefer frequent surrenders play amongst themselves. This change could address many of the current frustrations.
Stopped playing league for a while, and came back after watching your shorts about the ff culture. Tried having fun while losing, as long as i played well, and it truly changed my way of enjoying the game. I even had fun yesterday on a ranked with my jungler running ghost ignite lol.
Hope ppl will convert too.
I'mma be honest with you, Azzapp. I used to be one of these people, but ever since I started watching your shit I tried to change.
You gave a lot of guarantees in this video without proper backup sources. How can anyone trust what you are promising? "Within this timeframe, X people will get accustomed to Y". Who says that?
A lot of presented arguments in this video are the same, you try to debunk data without providing data yourself. It is a nicely made video, but to me it seems more of a "try to believe in the power of friendship" type of video then one that actually provides counter data to provide a debate on even ground.
Really glad you've been pushing this anti-ff culture recently, Azzapp. I don't know if it's because I'm an NA player or because I'm a 4fun player who doesn't go ranked, but I've always been of the opinion of never surrendering unless the game is so far gone in the favor of the enemy team that trying to play out the game would simply not be fun anymore for anybody on the team.
I took like a 2 year break from the game, and it honestly really surprised me when I came back that people would surrender at the smallest inconveniences. I WANT TO PLAY THE GAME, DAMNIT, why are we surrendering so early when I'm playing Gwen into tanks and ranged champions? Even if it wasn't a good draft for us, I'm low elo, so anything can happen to turn the tides of the game. If I ever played ranked, I feel like this sentiment would be exacerbated even more because now I actually have an incentive to win rather than just playing 4fun. People simply have way too poor mental and want to ff ASAP.
Thanks for bringing attention to this. The surrender mentality is the thing that ruins my enjoyment when playing this game, more than anything I've ever encountered since I started playing at season 2. I can't believe I'm saying this but a small part of me actually misses the days where people would say psychotic things every few games like wishing I get cancer, or die, because even in those insanely toxic games, I still had a choice of just letting these insane comments fly past me as long as I was able to maintain positive mentality. The surrendering on the other hand, I have no control over. It's as if the only thing people EVER want to do in league these days is just press Yes on the surrender vote. Really hard to stay positive with that constantly happening, and I'm usually able to take a TON of crap before things get past my mental barrier while playing this game.
ive tried your recommendation for some time now and im happy to say its working. ive had multiple games where my team tilted early and i was able to keep them in and win (although most of the time i was the one fed one on the team)
I think the explanation behind FF culture is sadly very simple:
- most people would rather blame their teammates instead of realizing that they made mistakes
- because of this, people would not think the game is winnable, assuming their teammates are "impossible to carry"
FF culture is just a projection of the mental bias making it easier to think "I was matched with 4 apes, get me out" rather than "how could I have played that better".
It is simply, but you are wrong. Actual reason is that this is a mother efin video game.With big majority of players playing like 1-2 games every day if not every week. People come here to have fun. When someone ints, or heck, even when they are turbo counterpicked, they dont have any fun, so they want to go next game where they will have fun instead of draging a game which they hate, just for some lp that in reallity means nothing.
Me, personally, got into league like a year ago and as soon as I started, I noticed that in a lot of games ppl would type ff 15 and ff early. Which was a wee bit strange for me as a CS player, where the conditions to ff are very strict, but over time I got used to it and didn't give it much thought, accepting it as a part of the league culture. But when I started watching ur vids a month ago or so I decided to try out the anti-ff strategy. And well... I found it a bit surprising I actually got positive results. Like, the other day I had Akali on top 0/15 vs a 11/3 Renekton and generally fed enemy team, when I had stats like 5/5/3, but in the end we somehow won that game with our team ending at 74/59 because we managed to win a couple of teamfights and objectives (low ELO btw). Thank you for making me change my ways. :)
I recently discovered you and your no ff mentality and i like it a lot, but i noticed (in my games at least max hemerald) when there is a carry in the team nobody likes to "defend" that said carry; I've seen a lot of games lost just because someone prefer to chase a kill instead of staying with carry and win immediately the team fight.
Even when me or my friends give the solution in chat "Peel the adc is fed we can win" no one follow the advise just because they dont like the the play style; Me as a Mid laner who plays late game champs (syndra, ryze) i got flamed just because i changed my play style to save my carry, especially in games where I'm 0/3 because i prefer to scale and if i can help other to not get killed
So i think one of the problems is that Player dont like to listen even when there is a winning condition. I dont really know if im wrong maybe its always part of the ff mentality
I’m not sure how to fix the 15 min ff because when 4 players have said they want to ff at 15 at that point they can just figure out who the odd man out is and instead of focusing on finding a comeback they’ll just flame the one person. Diamond-Emerald rank by far has the most quitters with the least game knowledge where these people are only playing tilted any if you mess up they no longer try to play around you and sabotage the game from the start. The only way to ever fix this kind of problem is the culture. Streamers destroyed this game by pushing for games to be ffed because they taught the entire low elo community that some games cannot be won no matter what you do, but they never explain to their viewers why it’s unwinnable or say what they would need to do for a comeback and how that might not be possible in that game, instead they just vote ff and flame like and other low elo player would. Azzapp and baus are some of the few personalities having a good impact on the game
For counter arguments not addressed in this video, google [you should always vote yes to surrender]
What I want to see is make the surrender vote a bet. If you vote no and you lose game, you lose double lp. If you vote yes and win, you don't gain lp. Perfect way to encourage players to be less delusional when they're taking hostages or when they're surrendering in a winnable game
It would be good in theory, in pratic people would vote and yes and int the game because wont win lp if they win
Here is my take on the FF vote.
They should scale the time by rank rank: (Lmk what you think and I hope Azzap sees this)
1. Low elo (Iron to Gold): 5/5 Vote at 25 mins and 4/5 vote at 30 mins
2. Mid elo (Plat to Diamond): 5/5 vote at 20 mins, 4/5 vote at 25 mins
3. High elo (Diamond+): 5/5 vote at 15 mins and 4/5 vote at 20 mins.
So minus 5 minutes by elo. And say if there is an overlapping gap, give the surrender vote with the longest time to the overall game. So like a Gold player in the mid elo group.
This would be an amazing change and seems very logical to force low elo mindset out. Low elo truly has the weakest and most bad mindsets, logically so.
The biggest problem is allowing people to create multiple accounts. If people get banned they just make a new account. Therefore there are no consequences to people's poor actions in the game. The sad part is League is a great game with a terrible/toxic player base. If we could have accounts tied to ip address or a phone number it would eliminate the majority of smurfs and there can be actual consequences to people's actions in the game. In a perfect world our game accounts would be tied to some form of government ID or social security. The lack of consequences also feeds into everything, including ff culture. Who cares about their account or mmr when they can just make a new one.
You know what would be good to add too ? A box that you can check in the options that says "automatically vote no to surrender/hide the surrender vote box" or something like that. This way real ones aren't bothered by the pop-up
problem is not about surrender. problem is when some idiot hope to win in 20:3 score at 15 min. also some dont even dont try to press tab and check minion scores and vision scores. not surrending is a same as intention feeding in some case.
My friend tried to teach me the "never surrender" mentality back when we first started together, took me a year to fully understand it. While that was going on, he got Plat instantly when I (not kidding btw) demoted to IRON 4. I made it out the trenches with a duo to prevent surrendering.
I only dodge when I dont like the champion i am playing against. Rito has released a number of champions feel so unfair and unfun to play against (even when you win) that I just dont wanna deal with their bs
My proposition is similar to one I have seen here in the comments, but takes it a step further: You have a setting (e.g. called "never ff") that you can turn on in the settings just like all chat and stuff.
If you have this turned on, you wont see any surrender votes, popup, chat message etc. and will always auto-vote no.
Furthermore, if there is at least 2 players with that setting on the team, the surrender vote disappears. There's a message at the beginning stating that no ff vote will ever succeed, therefore no one can even try.
This could have a feedback loop effect: The more players use this option, the more players have to play out the games without any surrendering options, the more they realize that surrendering is almost always bad, the more players turn on the option and so on.