Border Mindset | Identity and Morality of the Border Reivers | Part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ม.ค. 2025
- Welcome to my channel! Here you'll find history and folklore from across the British Isles. Here is the long-awaited part 2 of the Border Reiver series. The Reivers were the riding families/clans that lived on both sides of the Anglo-Scots border. Their loyalty lay with their family and not their nation. In this video, I look into their identity and morality, something which is vital to know if we're to properly understand these people.
Music used:
'The North Remembers'
and the Northumbrian Pipe music of Kathryn Tickell.
Some notable sources that I used for this video are:
'Border Reiver', Keith Durham
'The Steel Bonnets', George MacDonald Fraser
'The Reivers: The Story of the Border Reivers', Alistair Moffatt
If you enjoy my content and would like to support my work, you can help me out via PayPal, which is much appreciated: www.paypal.com...
DukeOfAvalon | Duke Of Avalon
Just to clarify, it is disputed as to whether if not it was Scott that invented the ‘blood is thicker than water quote’. However, he is definitely the one that popularised it. As always, thanks for watching! I’ll be sure to not leave it 5 months again until part 3! If you’d like to help support my work, you can do so via PayPal: www.paypal.com/paypalme/dukeofavalon?locale.x=en_GB
I'm a proud Armstrong here in the hills of Arkansas.
I'm a proud Burns in the base of the hills of Arkansas
Invictus maneo. From Alabama.
Musgrave/young descendant who were from Ar and now Ok. I’ve done a lot of research. The Musgraves were married into the Armstrong family and were instrumental in killing kenmont willie (their alliance was to a different line of Armstrong’s) my opinion is that we still hold onto concepts from the borders and don’t even realize it until it’s thrust in your face and it’s oh, ok… that’s why I am the way I am. lol. I call it genetic memory.
Invictus Maneo from New Zealand.
As a proud Crozier descendant I'd buy you a beer. We were a sept of the Armstrongs
The reivers' concept of honour seems very similar to that of the Norse in the "viking age" -- as Duke says toward the end of the video, "breaking a promise is one thing, but deceitful betrayal and treachery to your own people is something quite different." If one reads Heimskringla (The Norwegian King Sagas) one will see this mentality all throughout the hundreds of years described.
Thanks for the video. I hadn't even heard of the border reivers before seeing the first part in this series.
I’m glad I could share it with people that have an interest in such things :-)
Well ig it makes sense that 2 warrior cultures who spent a lot of time raiding would come up with similar mentalities
My family is a border clan , and I find this very interesting can't wait for the next part.
:-)
Great videos. I'm just starting on my ancestry. Im a Johnston/e. Lol, Ready!! There is so much fasinating history with the boarderland clans... thank you.
Highly recommend the indie doc Pagan Europe: my encounters with the devil for a thorough analysis of the blackface tradition in Europe
I commented before I watched this excellent video about the border reivers. I mistakenly assumed it was about border Morris when I commented a week ago
Very interesting video! I’m an American who has a few ancestors who were Elliots from the border regions of Scotland before they moved to Northern Ireland and eventually came to Appalachia. I never really knew about the history of the region they lived in but it honestly makes a lot of sense. You can see a lot of similarities in the mindsets of the American west and frontiersman of family loyalty, vigilante justice, and so fourth.
Looking forward to learning more about these people moving forwards.
I love the image at 3.11 - one of my favourite works of the late, great Angus McBride - The Bastard John Heron rescues Edmund Howard as he and a only a few adherents are surrounded by Lord Home's Borderers at the Battle of Flodden in 1513. In true Reiver style after the battle - they ransacked and looted the English baggage train - the Bishop of Durham commented that prisoners were taken and ransomed sold back to the Scots. Home and Dacre were accused of collusion after the battle from both sides after withdrawing from the butchery - feeling they had done enough fighting for the day.
So much wonderful history of the Borders - love Keith Durham's work on the subject. You can get lost in the stories - rich, deep and enthralling.
@@Shagrat65 , my surname is Heron and am from the north, a border reiver family name.
I’m a Bell ... I’m a Bell!! This makes me so proud
The Devils Dozen!
My daughters school in the Tyne valley sounds like a roll call of reiver families.
There is a book Called Albion's seed that covers the great migrations of Europeans to the U.S., and the author makes a very convincing argument that the Appalachian mountains are settled by descendants of the borderlands. I am from Appalachian Kentucky and have long been a student of the region. Interestingly, scholars can't seem to agree on even the basics of where these people come from. But I've never seen such similarities in culture and mindset in any group until i learned about the Borderlands. Thank you for these excellent videos. I hope to watch them all.
These videos are so cool man! The dynamics of the region and lifestyle are so interesting to learn about. Long live the Johnstone clan!
Glad you're enjoying so far mate
Amen to that !
As an Elliott, I wondered about my distain for royal authority. Now I understand.
They have not been decent towards most of us. And they still are a bit twisted.
I'm an Elliott too
The battles on the Borders, The Revolutionary War, 1812, The Alamo, The Civil War, WWI, WWII, and so on. The Kerrs have seen a lot of History!
I was just watching a video about a kerr creek Indian massacre. I bet the creek is named for your Kerr's.
Oh, an they supported the Hanoverian govt troops against the Jacobites. Not the sidey family lined up on, but Kerr's were there too. An don't forget the Chicago bulls Steve Kerr. He played with Jordan Pippin an Rodman. So maybe it was that undying border reiver blood that help clasp those championships. Just sayin.
Its interesting to note that reivers on both sides of the border were loyal to their name's when indulging in battle rather than to the kings of whoever they were fighting for. It gives me a sense of pride to know that we always had someone at our back
I'd love to hear more. Can't wait for the next video in the series!
Loved these two videos. Can't wait for the next installments.
These are outstanding videos! I'm going to share these videos to a Border Reiver online group I'm apart of. Border Reivers were certainly a breed of their own. And largely underrated, as well. I'm quite proud to be related to families like the Forsters, Humes, Armstrongs, Dicksons, Maxwells, etc.. Cheers!
Glad you enjoyed mate and thanks for sharing. Hopefully part 3 up before too long.
In what way underated?
@@neilfoster8823 Underrated in a way that Border Reivers do not get mentioned as much as they should.
I can see a lot of research has gone into this. Thank you! I'm looking forward to the video featuring locations, as i can then visit and get a real sense of the atmosphere.
My pleasure mate, glad you like it
Loving this series, cant wait for more.
Glad to hear it fella
I am descended from Armstrong and Fenwick ancestors and finding this video fascinating
Ooh so excited to see a new video. These and Asha Logos are what are getting me through this distressing time xx thanks DofA
My pleasure :-)
Interesting video, there are similarities between this and the old border areas between Sweden and Denmark (now inside Sweden).
I’d be fascinated to learn about that
I am a proud Turnbull and still Reive !! That is, I ride, I ride and ride, and have done so since the age of 4. This video explains much about myself and my Daughter's feelings and attitudes toward life. The genes will out !!
Great Video! looking forward to more videos on the Scottish Borders.
The sentiments still ring true today.
Shiieeet a new Reivers video, nice piece of history from our wee region. My surname's Hedley, i wonder if i'm descended from the English reivers. Anyways hope there's more to come soon.
As a Crozier with Morrisons on my mothers side.. this explains my tendency to pick sides between Scottish and English. Its like Harvey Dent and Two Face.
This is a fantastic channel. Thank you.
My sir name is Massingale, in Scotland our sir name was Robson.
For numbers in stregnth, were allies to the Clan Gunn.
Here in the Appalachian region we have had episodes where our heritage proved to be helpful.
Now you know why Ulster folk are so tribal and fierce.
Northern Ireland people are descended from border English and lowland Scots.
Many went onwards to North America.
In our case Australia
Yup, my ancestors were Scottish, went to northern Ireland then over to Virginia then on to Kentucky. Don't know if they were Borderers, the trail went cold in Northern Ireland.
We didn't move on voluntarily, many were rounded up & hung during the Lowland Clearances, or exiled to Ireland to die of starvation or the " New World" with only the clothes they stood up in. Many were made indentured slaves, or sent to fight Belgium. The wealthy just moved in & took our lands, making us work them for a pittance to build their Country Estates, Still living in the West Marches of Scotland where I was born & have just about every Reiver surname in my ancestry as well as the one I bear now !
My father was adopted but I'm biologically a Hall. My direct male line made their way from the border to North Ireland to Ohio.
Hello @DukeofAvalon .. wishing you a bless Sunday, take care mate!
You too mate, hope you are well!
I’m a Rutherford and this is the first I’ve heard about Reivers.
Your a Rutherford and you didnt know, This video does not tell you anything, I am from this area, and a Rutherford. . The video make no mention of the Debatable lands, which was an area that wasnt ruled by england or scotland, an area where there was no law. as the area belonged to no one country. The history of the area goes back to pre roman times, your and my name comes from a river crossing in the debatable lands (Rutterford …. Rutter meaning Oxen …. Oxen crossing). This video is very much North East biased, the reiver pre date Northumbria, and most Reiver action was in the wast. Please read a book 'The Debatable Lands'. I am from a plce near Carlisle and have studied this, another bit is there was laws both in England and Scotland allowing lawlessness in this area, the debatable lands were almost a separate country, until King James I/James VI who were the same
Very interesting series. I`ve heard of the Reivers, but knew very little about them.
Could you mention the women of the borders please Duke? A possible idea for the future might be a video on the Keelmen ?
Well done and greatly needed.
what a fantastically specific video, your channel is a secret gem.
Thank you :-)
I grew up in the Scottish Borders and during my time in the Army I was a Northumberland Fusilier. Says it all really. Not much has changed. 😂
As an Armstrong/Henderson I'm enjoying these videos very much, thank you for making them. Have you considered selling some reiver products or other Scottish paraphernalia on your channel to help support it financially? I'd be glad to contribute some designs to help out the channel if you would be interested (they would be free of charge of course and exclusive to your channel)...
Great video man! Noble here from kentucky, traced my line back to Hobbie Noble famously wrote about by sir Walter Scott
I tend to think there are levels to a promise. A promise should be kept but can sometimes be given lightly. To where breaking a promise is simply a scale on which you measure a consequence. A oath is a bet using ones honor as the wager. I've broken promises in my life a few times. Not that I enjoyed it. I've never broken an oath. Just a random comment. I hope you continue this series. I definitely subbed.
Thanks mate :-)
Part 3 coming soon? Very interesting topic. As a northumbrian who spends a lot of time on both sides of the border I can confirm that we are still in many ways separate from both England and Scotland culturally and linguistically.
A noble race of warriors
From what I've learnt, it seems like the Border lands was culturally like a third country between England and Scotland.
It was a culturally distinct area. Celto/Saxon blood, with Norse thrown in. They owed no allegiance to any crown, and the border set by such mattered little. They were loyal to their kinsmen. The Scots nor the English proper could tame them. Thats why they sent them to Ulster. To use their genetic rage against the Gael Catholics.
In the book Albions seed they are classified as a distinct group. “The borderers” - the people of lowland Scotland, border England and Ulster constituting a distinct ethnic territory built around the Irish Sea and north channel.
These people went on to America and became the cowboys. Which makes sense when you realise how wild they were back in Britain.
The English Reivers did unite when the Scottish were invading though. such as the Solway Firth, but as you say, did respect the Scottish ones usually and vice versa. Additionally they were usually the first line of defense if there was an invasion.
James of Scotland cut the power of the Reivers down alas. Many I suspect that weren't sent to Ireland to fight the Irish, went over the water to America.
Watch Ryder Yup, like I say they did often fight for their national armies. Likewise at Flodden. And yeah I talk about them being the 1st line in part 1 :-). And I believe regarding America, most Reiver families ended up in the Appalachia region
@@TheJollyReiver
Once arrived in Colonial Virginia. The Church of England encouraged these Scots-Irish to take free land in the Allegheny Mountains to fight the Indians for them - and rid themselves of those NOT Church of England,
Great series , very educational- where can I get this cover picture (original).
Also, please do more,
Loyalty & honour...
Cowardice and fear is ravishing our people, its very unpleasant to watch.
Aye
Could you tell me where you found the art at 6:28? I’ve never seen it before
Next time I eat Pringle's potato chips I'll remember the reivers!
Very fascinating
Another top video mate. Cheers
:-)
I love the border reiver stories (carruthers)
I'm proud to be from the reviers family SCOTT.
It really is interesting how we are the way we are. I have always had a very strong sense of honor and justice. Without much reason as to why. I guess the phrase, its in my blood rings true.
I'd love to see a video of clan ross in the future, they're not talked about nearly enough
Yes me too, my surname is
Horn-Ross both highland names and of the same clan names
Of Horn & Ross
I feel very proud of my roots
Regards
🇬🇧👧
I was curious, do people in northern England sound Scottish or do people in southern Scotland sound English?. Or do people on both sides of the border sound different from English or Scottish?. I’m an Armstrong in America but obviously the borders is probably where my ancestors came from by way of Northern Ireland.
People in Northern England have distinctive accents, varying with Cumbrian accents in the west and Geordie/Northumbrian accents in the east. They share a good deal of words with the Scottish borderers, who likewise have an accent distinct from other parts of Scotland. You should search for some videos of these accents to hear them yourself and make your own judgement :-)
The "Geordie" dialect is indeed unique & has a lot of its pronunciation in the Scandinavian language & maybe due to the Viking invasions & Norse settlements in Northumberland!
In ancient times, Northumberland had links to the Welsh people & many people have asked me if i was Welsh esp when i lived in London in the 1970s
Listening to the lilting up & down tones of the Northumbrian accent does sound alot like the tones of the Norwegian dialects too.
Many Norwegian visitors to Newcastle & Tyneside say they can easily follow our Geordie dialect.
Some historian once said the Northumbrian dialect is the only one that sounds the way English was spoken 500 years ago.
Im very proud of my Northumbrian roots & the good Northumbrian accent which is slightly different from the Newcastle Geordie accent which is rougher.
Its a hard dialect to imitate & few manage to master it but its
An ancient one & were proud roughty tufty northerners!
Cheers
🇬🇧👧
Excellent... A people of independent mind... As it was in the north even before and and after the Romans. The old north!
There was no border then... Only politics interfered with that!
We are the same people... Old Albion wont die...
I love the art. The dark art. Who painted them.
Which pic in particular mate?
When will the next one be out
Reivers were not far behind the pagan Viking diaspora. The words 'Reiver' and 'Viking' are not far apart in meaning. It's no surprise they were comfortable living by plunder.
They did as they saw fit in an area and era that was near lawless, who wouldn't? I lived on an estate in sheffield in the 90s that became so bad we lived by similar rules....if it's there to be had, have it.
Loving these
Cheers fella
Hi There, Thankyou for your informative channel I am enjoying the videos very much. However as a BURN and a riever descendant I am concerned that our name has been listed as Burns on your riding surnames map. I just wanted list my concern. Once again thanks for your Channel
Hey mate, glad you’re enjoying. Well the map is by no means a be all and end all, there are dozens of variations of different family names. Burns is certainly more common than Burn, and more well known thanks to Robert Burns. No need to worry though haha.
Moffatt's, Bell's, Beatty"s, Taylors, etc. are in my pedigree. Grew up with Selby's. Interesting.
More border reaver psychology please.
Our Kin.
On my mothers side i am related to clan johnstone some how
Is Yorkshire part of the borders?
no it's about 80 miles away.far for the uk
5:03 a londoner today struggles to understand a Northumbrian, never mind 500 years ago.
So interesting, my dad told me when I was young that our ancestry goes back to the black knights of Austria. What different times people lived in 🤺
Man you must have aristocrat blood
I'm a Reed descendant. I have no loyalty to country, government or flag. My politics are EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF.
I have many many border reiver ancestors
The Burns Clan--still ornery!
No more brother wars
No more borther wars ;) nice Snufkin avi btw
Is the vampire of berwick was he a real person or is it just a myth :)
There is much in Little.
Interesting for an area with fertile lands much of the wealth of agriculture could not be realized due to the lawlessness.
Your map has half the riding families missing!
Any Robson's here ?
"No, we're all Elliots and Armstrongs" Jesus is all well and good, but if you are looking for salvation of your skin and not just your soul it might be your best bet to look no further and inquire if they had need of any help in the kitchen lol.
Aye from sw scotland am not scot or english, dna is56 english 44scotts iam from the borders
Think about it. Your family name is older than Scotland itself and some King's dynasty. King's and Countries come and go but the blood runs for thousands of years.
69th... nice...
I am a bell
Guys, the Border families were not clans - in real history clans are uniquely associated with Gaelic Scotland, not the Anglo-Brythonic ethnography of the south. Anyway what is it with Americans going around being "proud"? What exactly are so proud of? You seem to live your lives in a Hollywood film set. There is nothing Scottish or Borders about that. We just live our lives. Why can't you leave the romantic Braveheat bollocks behind and just be proud to be American, or Alabama whatever?
Christianism and clan/family/tribe loyalty are not exclusive of each other. Family comes first, before any other association or duty of charity, for any Christian. And God before anything. Love for your enemy does not come first and above the duty to one's own family. What would be different in Christian tribal values contrasted with autonomous tribal values alone, is that the overall morals would be cleaner. Not stealing, not raping, not gratuitous cruelty. But what do those filthy customs have to do with the essence of the love to your tribe? Nothing. They're just vile habits, purely accidental, and disposable with no harm to tribe loyalties. Don't hate your enemy, is not the same as love your enemy above all. Don't hate your enemy, _but do fight him_ for the sake of your loved ones. Love them, even when you fight them and have to kill them. But be always a constant exemplar of what a man should be, with regard to your loved ones, and with regard to your enemies too. Fight them, and make them better, by being better yourself. Love above all, and don't make the least condescension to crime and cruelty. Be tough, don't be mean. Be brave and relentless whenever needed, don't be murderous. If you kill, pray for their soul. And whenever you can, whenever the situation is under your hand, make peace. Armed peace, but sincere peace. I don't find a real, substantial contradiction between tribal values and real Christianity. I find tribal values lacking moral smoothness, moral solidity, and wisdom. But it's core, it really has something that is essential to Christianity: loyalty, earnestness, zeal. ~ Surely, Christ example is different, martyrdom ethics are not built on warrior ethics. That's true. But they stand in the same dialectical synthesis as warrior class and shaman/priest class stand in almost every tribal culture the world has known. As Heaven and Earth. And many times history has witnessed many monks grab arms to defend their country. Also, martyrdom is not something you realize in the midst of a national battle, martyrdom is something you do for transcendent values and spiritual causes alone and exclusively, as Kierkegaard or Al Hallaj did, for example. National wars are to be waged by soldiers, holding rosaries, as in the Battle of Lepanto. With the monks standing unarmed in the battlefield strengthening the soldiers souls' fire.
Armstrongs had both protestant and catholic members. Most the catholics eventually moved to Ulster.
@@emceeunderdogrisingNo they didn't, they took mainly Protestants & heathens, which is why sectarianism rose in Ireland !
Where did half the human race disapear to? Women, bearers of children, transmitters of culture. This has got to be the most ignorant comment I have seen in quite some time.
@@scallopohare9431 Do you expect me to write a treatise? I think it's long enough already. I was taking about warrior ethics, do you think women should be on the front with their babies? Not the most intelligent critique either...
@@krabelpaan Naw, you go on about values and morality. Neither of which is exclusively mascaline. Both of which are transmitted by mothers probably more than father.
David 1st of Scotland took Northumbria as a present from the English King was New Castle, Leeds, York all the way down to the tees???en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_I_of_Scotland