Aaron Judge v. Ken Griffey Jr. Swing Analysis and Comparison
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video I compare the swing mechanics of Aaron Judge and ken Griffey Jr. Don't forget to subscribe.
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When I was in little league, a coach actually turned me around and taught me to hit left handed so we could start from scratch. He showed me tape of Griffey and had the same observations regarding the hands and weight transfer. I was hitting the ball harder and farther even though I was naturally right handed. And, I hit the ball straighter (no hook or slice).
Bro if Griffey wasn’t hurt he would have been the best hitter in baseball
It is about efficiency, which swing fits your strengths. The idea is to get the bat on the same plane as the ball for a long as you can keep the barrel in the zone on that plane will give you the best chance to hit the ball consistently. You have to keep your head still to hit 90+. Not right and wrong, more or less efficient than each other. There are about 3 main approaches taught , strengths and weaknesses to each. Some use more/less wrists in the swing, some punch more/less than others to stay inside the ball. Some use more/less hips. Not 1 way to hit the ball, but more/less efficient ways.
If the bat was on the plane for a longer time wouldn't that be a longer, slower swing?
Through age 32, Aaron Judge's career OPS+ (172) is higher than Junior's BEST SEASONS (171, '93 & '94). Let that sink in.
He also weighs 100 pounds more than Griffey. Let that sink in. If Griffey weighed 283 pounds, hell even if he weighed just 240, he could have hit 80 homers.
My Grandfather always taught me to keep things short and glide into the ball he always made sure I wasnt doing unnecessary moves with my hands or lower body, as a result my swing kind of mirror Griffey's
honestly my Grand dad was a wizzard and everyone that knew him told me he should have played in the majors but he didnt know English nor he had the people around him to get him there.
I'm interested in more discussion of Griffey's plant foot. From what I've seen, the overwhelming majority of hitters load from the instep of the back foot and initiate ground reaction force by driving backwards with their entire foot still flat on the ground and then roll through the ball of their foot and onto their tiptoes and usually slightly off the ground as the swing progresses and the force translates through their front side. It's primarily a hamstring and glute driven movement. Griffey goes right to the ball of his back foot much earlier in order to create his body position, and his drive appears to be more quad dominant. Seems like understanding this would be key to teaching the Griffey swing.
Honestly I think that what you are discussing is rather inconsequential.
Griffey played where there was easier pitching (Fact) and so it gave him a easy time going forward on the front foot to generate a better looking swing
@@michaelpeck811 😂 good one
but Judges stats are significantly better then Ken, which indicates his swing is more lethal,consistenct , better!. That has less to do with weight , and mostly To do with technique.Another thing ,
Ken had serious back issues , Like FIELDER , there swings put enormous pressure on the spine because both swung using there back to tork there bat around from firm front side.I am guessing Judges swing will never harm his body , nor suffer similar stress. His whole career is going to be free, since his wing has little stress, not to meeting his swing makes better contact, consistent, contact , since his head =doesnt move ,,his hands remains in the strike zone longer ,and he has more time to wait on every pitch?
Judge is got the bent front arm crap that the Dodgers try to teach that screwed up Bellinger. Not sure how you can hit well like that.
Does Kerry Carpenter's improvement last year lend any credence to Schenck's HLP for more typically sized players?
Kerry Carpenter is 220. That's not small. I don't think so but I'm trying to not talk about Schenck because he's so 2023 :D
@@theswingmechanic What about Wade Meckler of SF? He's 5'10, 178 lbs and went from getting cut and told to transfer from OSU to a top 15 prospect in the Giant's system. Doesn't the fact he's graded a 60 hit tool with a 30 power show the HLP swing doesn't need blazing bat speed to succeed?
@@markuyehara7880 is wade meckler working with Schenck?
Love the aesthetic. But TM prioritizes something important that perhaps wasn't as important in the past namely giving the hitter more time to make a choice. With the pitchers throwing so fast these days it may just be the natural evolution (mutation?) of the swing. Makes sense we'd start snapping and tilting so we'd be able to make better judgements on pitches as opposed to how efficient our swing is. I think Griffey had a better swing too but we shouldn't underestimate Bonds' eye. He is probably the the greatest pitch choice hitter w or wo roids. I have a feeling that's due to the confidence in the speed of his bat snap and I think TM greatly prioritizes this. As much as I love this swing there is something to be said for finding that twist loading position and just waiting for the right pitch to release on as oppose to having to connect all these movements while a ball goes 104 past you. Thoughts? Perhaps there's a hybrid?
Why would his method give the hitter more time to make a choice? He’s sold everyone on that but there’s no reason why it would be faster.
Less steps. Thinking that all you need to do is snap the bat and tilt seems quicker than the kinetic chain. Suppose someone mastered both. You might use yours against guys with lower velocity and his for heavy fb pitchers@@theswingmechanic
@@theswingmechanic there is a clip of ken griffey hitting a grand slam against a closers fastball that was clocked at 100+ and he turns it around to deposit it into right field. Velo has been prevalent in baseball for ages, you’re correct with your teaching, this swing can hit velo and can hit off speed, richards swing teaching is in my mind specifically trying to match speed of the pitch with the speed at which the hitter can launch their barrel. Not how well they can make contact, or what positions they get into at contact. Would you Agree?
@@kash3518 100% it’s such an oversimplified approach. It’s just “pitch is fast so be as fast as possible.” Positions and mechanics be damned. It’s shocking that so many people have bought in because it’s just, I’m sorry but, such a stupid approach. 😄🤷🏽♂️
@@theswingmechanic Because the launch is faster. The snap to the ball is quicker than the arm extended technique. If you put the ball on a tee and take one of your guys and one of his and do the launch drill his students win every time.
I hate the Yankees with a passion but I can’t say anything bad about Judge. The guy just Rakes! That being said and this isn’t hating on Judge in any way shape or form but this isn’t even a serious debate. Ken Griffey Jr had the absolute sweetest swing the game of baseball has ever seen. Period end of discussion. Now as someone in the comments mentioned it’s about fitting a players swing to fit that players strengths. It’s all about what works for a player. But from a fundamental standpoint you will never see a baseball player have a prettier swing that Ken Griffey Jr. If the gods of baseball ever created the perfect swing it still wouldn’t be any better than #24.
This was 5 months ago. Aaron judge is a monster right now again. So maybe richard really doin something big.
I developed the pound for pound list so we can get a good idea of how good someone's mechanics are. He's the equivilant of a 185 pounder hitting a home run every 25 at-bats. That's really good, but not in the top 100 P4P hitters.
@@theswingmechanicI think the hard part with comparing Judge's swing is that he's not only a unicorn in weight, but also height. He has a larger strikezone to manage, and longer arms to control. There's a reason there are not too many 6'-5"+ hitters who can consistently hit for a good average. Why I think Judge's swing works for him is because I think he trades making harder contact for more consistent contact. For especially a tall hitter, consistent, and consistently solid, contact is usually the hardest part, but Judge has that in spades. I get the idea of a P4P comparison, but I think that ignores some of the other factors of a swing as especially a batter becomes taller.
@@theswingmechanic at the end of the day all that matters is what hes doing ON THE FIELD right? He about to be MVP. So that prob means more than any analysis.
I know you mention about getting to a point where we agree on the right swing approach. Unfortunatelly I still see a lot of the push forward, don't rotate approach. Not just Richard but in his most recent video, I saw Antonelli explaining staying through the zone longer like you are hitting three baseballs, so basically push hands forward instead of rotating. And these are coaches who recognize Griffey has having one of the best if not the best swing in baseball. So I see some inconsistency on how they perceive an effective swing
But does "staying through the zone longer" necessarily lead to pushing instead of rotating? Isn't what Jaime calls "moving fulcrum" also staying through the zone longer?
@@andrecanis4894 the arms will stay on path while the body is rotating. Mookie Betts has sort of a combination of both methods where he bends the front elbow but still rotates his body.
Yall both are way off. Judge swing isn't high level. He is the biggest baseball player ever, so he will have the most homeruns, given. His swing has a hole at the top of the zone. He leads the 2024 team in strikeouts. Doesn't crack the top 100 lowest strikeout rate. So yall both clueless.
Jaime, do you have a video where you discuss the optimal contact spot for different pitches with the "arm bar" vs "arm bent" swings?
No. I don't really distinguish between the two. If you have an arm-bar swing, you are going to have to bend it sometimes to reach high and tight for example. Pretty much everything can be worked out off a tee and swinging with just the lead arm, including ideal ball placement.
Swing to knock down the fence is the correct assessment of “old school” imo and I still believe that is correct when teaching the best swing.
The vertical bat angle TM has in his teaching is completely wrong and to me is why the swing is disconnected. Like you said, we can use an eye test and see aesthetically something looks off with it compared to the p4p greats. Even Bonds swing is not like he teaches, and that is supposedly who he “matches”. Rearward tilt is not something Bonds or the greats did from launch.
Yes….there are two angles to consider that are critical in this discussion. The angle between the hands and the bat barrel, and the angle of the bat compared to “level”. TM teachings routinely show drills that increase both of those angles, in the pursuit of getting the bat up to speed quicker. As you’ve indicated, making the bat over steep is detrimental to much plate coverage….over pitches moving away.
When former players (e.g. A-ROD) have talked about their swing they’ve shared that they would swing “down” at the ball. My interpretation of that is they are actively thinking to make sure they don’t have an over-exaggerated upward tilt of the shoulders…..which would lead to the inefficient steep swing we’ve discussed. So, in reality, their swing ends up being slightly upward, not really downward or “level”. Unfortunately, proponents of the high level pattern, take this too literally and think that their barrel dump and upward exaggeration is the answer.
I don’t believe there are enough people out there who understand how good this video is. The mass/weight comment is absolutely a part of the equation. Force = mass x acceleration. So, for other coaches who seem to hate on striding (more rotational), they miss the huge advantage of putting your body in forward motion, pushing against the front leg, and then unleashing the lever action of the hands and arms. It’s all about force, barrel speed, and having the barrel on the correct plane as long as possible. Believe it or not, swinging a bat with maximum force and velocity (like an axe) is a fairly innate human skill. Give a man 500 chops at a tree and he’ll quickly figure out how to impart the maximum amount of force and axe head speed without a ton of contemplation. Show me a lumberjack using the Schenck method and I’ll buy you a beer. It’s not an efficient way to deliver balanced power.
Now some might argue that Schenck’s method of dumping the bat backwards helps you react faster. I think the exact same thing could be achieved more smoothly by simply dropping the hands during striding. Ted Williams and Hank Aaron thought so. Plus, fixing a swing plane with a barrel dump, limits the flexibility to hit pitches in different locations.
Bottom line, I know there are a ton of people who think Schenck is a huge reason for Judge’s success. And he certainly might be partially responsible. However, Jaime C’s knowledge of “ideal” swing mechanics is much more science based and logical. Meaning, if you had Judge practice under Jaime, I think he would not only hit more home runs, he’d also strike out less.
100%. Getting the bodyweight into the swing is missing in today’s instruction. 🙏
@@theswingmechanicBody weight is present in rotational swinging as well, but ignoring the fact that every great hitter moves linearly towards the mound, creating force, is absolutely missing. I have no idea why the HLP proponents fail to see that….it is huge.
Trees don't get trickily thrown towards lumberjacks at 90+ mph with 12" of drift. Schenck is concerned with getting the barrel up to speed with as little of additional body motion as possible. That's the root of his philosophy.
@@povertygarage705The lumberjack analogy relates to generating force.
Bringing the barrel up to speed (Schenk method) with rotation about the forearm is not efficient motion….unless you want a steep bat angle and limited plate coverage. Plus, this snap motion is contrary the top hand pronation that every great hitter utilizes to maximize barrel acceleration. The snap might look quick, but quickness is pointless if it’s a weak motion with limited plate coverage. And to your point, learning a quick vertical snap that doesn’t really address different pitch locations is actually harmful. Before you respond, please let me know of a single hitter who uses this snap. This is most certainly NOT how Bonds, Judge, or any other great hitter moves.
@@povertygarage705A lot of discussion, in regard to the pitchers of today, has to do with the speed at which they throw. Surely, we need the HLP to address these fireballers with great stuff, right? Hank Aaron hit about .320 lifetime vs. Nolan Ryan…..the most dominant pitcher to ever play. Hank had a huge stride and active hands. Not to mention, a low strikeout percentage. The mantra that we must use HLP to hit today’s pitching is often repeated, but the fact of the matter is no one swings like Schenk.
Great Vid!
I think the reason why Schenk's HLP has been adopted more is because of they way he's able to break down the mechanics, make them repeatable, asorbable, and explain effectively why each step is important.
The hardest part of learning a Griffey style swing is you are relying much more on teaching a feeling throughout the entire swing process opposed to do these 10 steps and get good at them.
I believe I teach a fluid movement. The result of Schenck's swing is too jerky and stiff IMO.
10 steps is a ton. The front arm way is way easier and you won’t have do one legged hitting drills. Once you know it is just a matter of doing some basic maintenance swings. The smaller guys who hit yard do not use teacherman technique.
The kid
No question.
Judge and Griffey both have modern weight shift swings controlled by their heads (not by a coach). Teach has nothing to do with Judge.
The biggest difference between Judge and Griffey is that the Judge is covering a larger strike zone. The umpires consistently call low strikes on Judge.
Jamie , what about backspin vs just body weight… would you agree with getting both … body and flat to transition off the backside to front side to then hit down on back off ball to create backspin to get more distance on ball flight…. Judge gets side spin to top spin.
Lot of hitters i coach in college get top spin and they are obviously not as strong or ever going to be as big as judge or as strong so that is a double whammy to just be a pop out machine and swing and miss machine
I'm against any sort of trying to manipulate backspin or loft angle. I think the goal should be to optimize the amount of force applied to the ball. Thinking about backspin or loft angle is not going to lead to any difference. There have been great P4Pers who have swung more upwards and ones who have swung more downwards. Doesn't matter.
Go to schenk and learn HLP yourself. Then you can decide whether front arm dominant or HLP is better
You’re sure on my channel a lot. Could it be that you’re looking for something better?🤔😂
And you somehow have STILL not responded to the point.
@@maxstephen2324 Why would he want to go swing like Schenk does.
@@danielhoward4566 bro I literally said it in my comment are you braindead
Hitterman all the way
That isn't a person but ok.
I think too , JUDGES SWING IS MORE SIMPLE,LESS CAN GO OUT OF SINK. it just a snap the barrel back ,everything else follows naturally , where as the k swing starts from the ground up and must sink together almost unnaturally ,if one part of the mechanics is out of sink the whole dam swing falls apart. Judges swing is much easier , as the snap of the barrel moves naturally the other parts
Mistakes or not he wouldn’t hit 80hrs. Judge swing is perfect for him that’s the problem with people like this guy he thinks he can fix something that’s not broken
Nah, Judge could do even better with a more efficient and mechanically sound swing.
Definitely l stay Ken Grifey swing Judge doesn’t go deep to hit homerones he is to strong
Hitting coaches “ Griffey jr has the prettiest swing ever “.
Also hitting coaches when pointing out that Griffey, and Ruth arm bar. “Only genetic freaks can get away with that “.😂
100%. Because those guys violate what these coaches have always taught, so they dismiss them.
@@theswingmechanicAnother great video, Jaime. An important thing to point out is the bat/arm position at contact. More often than not, the greats have their arms pointed down the barrel in a steep “V” at contact, with top hand always pronating afterwards. So, when HLP teachers are talking about arms being the enemy of the swing, I think they are doing a great disservice to so many young hitters out there. Our arms and hands are the last components in the kinetic chain. They are the levers that provide the final barrel acceleration prior to contact. Bonds, Ruth, Williams, and Aaron all hand the steep V…..the perfect marriage of the dominant lead arm and the slotted rear arm. It’s this technique that proves that the bat is more like a “whip”, vs. a weak rotary “propeller” (taught by Schenk). This distinction cannot be overstated.
Yes he is big ,and a lot of his HR , are close to the outfield fence , and if he were a normal size guy , those HR, would be outs! , However it is not pushing , he is snapping back the bat head which hips his body around not his hips turns his torso ,pulls his hands and bat through the strike zone
Judge barely swings faster than Jo Adell and is slower than Kyle Schwarber and is only 6th in Max EV and 10th in hits with EV over 95 mph but leads in No Doubters, Mostly Gone and Expected HRs. This is because he leads MLB in Barrell% by quite a bit. This means, it's not his size but the quality of his contact that makes him so great.
I wish people would stop attributing everything to Judge's size. It's lazy. It's a factor but is nowhere near a full explanation for his production. If all it took was size to be a historic hitter, every NFL LT would play baseball and hit 100 HRs a season.
Popular?
I think you and TM agree on the front elbow position in the swing. Bonds says throw the bat head. Both of you are just debating when.
Palm up and palm down at contact!!!!!!
I’m don’t like his front elbow position. His swing starts with a snap which doesn’t line up with kinetic chain. There’s not enough body into the hit as a result.
You can’t be any other way but palm up palm down at contact.
When I see you do your drills free swinging with your front arm I see that the elbow drives forward and forearm and bat are lined up. the older swings tend to press the front arm on the chest. I think the older swings loaded with the hands farther back and the newer swings are getting so tight that there creating space from the chest.
there's beauty in both of your swings. Griffey and Bonds. @@theswingmechanic
God I hate the phrase "Palm up Palm down" -that tells me nothing. Like, literally, how is anyone going to be anything other than palm up palm down at contact? Is there anyone who is palm up palm up at contact?
@@VicInNocal 100%
@@VicInNocal The term palm up and palm down is used to show hand placement at contact. if you don't know a good hand placement to use at contact, start there. I would also look at front arm placement and back elbow during the swing. I'm with you. ask 100 coaches get 100 answers.The guys on youtube do a great job. Try Antonelli, Josh Cathcart, teacherman, and yes my friend Jaime. 😁
Griffey's swing, while the most popular, will never be taught because he has a "stand tall position". Youth players are taught against this stance. They are taught: stand square (more like Mark McGwire). They don't understand hand separation. Both swings are commiserate, Mark McGwire with the forearms and Griffey with the body. You want BOTH!!! (that's where Barry Bonds enters the discussion)
I don't understand what you mean but I'll tell you that Bonds and Mcgwire took steroids and weighed at least 30 pounds more than Griffey. I'm looking for guys who didn't cheat and do it with muscle, and rather did it with their swing.
@@theswingmechanic I didn't quite catch the first part about Richard Schenk swing--didn't know his name (have seen his videos though). But yeah, I'm basically identifying that that's what I see taught--thus Griffey's swing would be hard to maintain (because it would likely be coached out of the modern youth player unless they're special enough that the coach won't touch them).
What I meant by "stand tall", is that the batting stance is almost standing straight up. I actually probably overexaggerated what I thought Griffey did (now looking closer). His feet are pretty well shoulder-width apart (there are other players' swings where they start off with their feet almost together), but there's only a slight bend in his front leg and his back leg is almost straight. Whereas, most youth coaches will see that and immediately tell the player to bend both knees more (and I feel like generally a wider initial stance is recommended).
My point is, is that standing up then taking a slight step forward is a crucial part of Griffey's swing. As he steps forward, he comes into the "canonical" position (the one usually recommended to beginners), but at this point, to _your_ point he has created forward body momentum while keeping his arms exactly where they started--thus getting excellent extension. He then starts a similar rotation to Judge/Schenk: the difference being that if you stay back and fire, you generate power from zero momentum, and if you step forward and let your center of mass move slightly forward, into the ball, you can create rotation against a moving center of mass which will be a more natural motion.
p.s. I have no bonafides here. Just a fan who's always been interested in different styles of swings.
Depends on what we mean by “stand tall”. If your torso is upright, it’s easier for your head to be closer to “plumb”. Why does that matter? The closer the head is to plumb, the more you’re going to be tracking the ball with both eyes. If you tilt at the waist (or fall towards the plate) you’re robbing yourself of one of the biggest tools in timing and pitch identification…..both eyes. This is a problem I see with Teacherman instruction, where he appears to be off balance, falling towards the plate. All of the greats have some linear motion towards the mound. Just look at their belt buckle….always moving forward.
Yes….this is a great thought. F = MA. So, linear movement or a large stride, isn’t bad…..provided you don’t get in the bad habit of getting your weight out over your front foot…..or what I would call lunging. All of the great hitters have their weight transferred into the ball at contact. Sometimes it’s dead center of the stance and sometimes it’s closer to the rear or front foot. But never off of just the rear foot. I’ve heard Schenck talk about how tennis players or golfers hit off of their rear foot. This is an inaccurate take on what is happening because they are swinging forehands. Show me a tennis player hitting a two handed backhand off of a rear legged launch…..doesn’t exist. Two handed or one handed backhands most certainly have weight transfer centered through the ball at contact. I’m afraid that Schenk isn’t really understanding the physics and mechanical aspects of what he is seeing. And to that end, his method starts from a place of misunderstanding, and then taught to others.
This channel, especially, focuses on the similarities of what the best pound for pound hitters do, from a mechanical standpoint. This is the true analysis we need.
Check out Lau's 1980's book. His Absolutes still rule today. All hitters, even Judge, load back, go forward, PUT THEIR HEADS DOWN, and hit on or against a braced front leg. Head position determines the nature of the swing. No one can hit with his head pointed at the sky. The laws of motion and human physiology are unalterable, at least as we can perceive them.
😬🤦🏻♂️
Lau had 1 thing right, he taught that the front arm was dominate and that the back arm didn’t need to be controlling the swing..
Many of the other things he taught were not very good
@@awakentotruthmichaelsmith4698 Lau taught "The Absolutes of Good Hitting"
"1. A balanced, workable stance
2. Rhythm and movement in the Stance
3. A good weight shift from a firm, rigid backside forward to hit from a firm, rigid frontside.
4. Striding with the front toe closed
5. Having the bat in the launching position at the moment the front foot touches down.
6. Making a positive, aggressive movement back toward the pitcher
7. A tension-free swing.
8. Putting your head down when you swing.
9. Using the whole field to hit in.
10.Hit through the ball"
If you look at Schenk swing, he does not have his head down. He does have his head looking up at the sky with a large uppercut.