Impossible Gospel of Mormonism as taught in General Conference
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ค. 2013
- Keith Walker of Evidence Ministries explains what Mormon General Authorities teach about the Impossible Gospel of Mormonism in General Conference. This conference is held every six months and is expected to be received by faithful Latter-day Saints as "The Words of the Lord" spoken through prophets, seers and revelators. Conference addresses are considered continuing revelation and are thought to be on par with Mormon Scripture. The "Words of the Lord" spoken in General Conference are binding upon all Mormons.
The last minutes of your presentation were the most powerful. Thank you!
Thanks for the encouragement! I'm happy to help.
Excellent explanation of how forsaking sin is an impossible thing to do. The fact Jesus was able to do it makes him a worthy sacrifice on our behalf.
wow thanks for your interpretation. that totally makes sense. even I myself have struggled with understanding these verses.
The theological debate over whether we are saved by grace or by works is a fruitless argument that is much "like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary" (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 129)
Love you’re ministry Kieth!
Your works do not save you, Ephesians 289, but you are created to do good works and your faith without works is dead
Keith,
I want your shirt.
Why does the epistle to the Hebrews say that Jesus was “the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him?
One of the biggest problems with understanding the Mormon doctrine of grace vs. works is the distinction between salvation and exaltation. A lot of people inside and outside the church forget that difference. One of the best talks for clearly explaining this is "His Grace Is Sufficient" by Brad Wilcox. Mormonism doesn't sound so impossible to me after reading this talk.
Wouldn't that be good reason why LDS should run just like any other Christian church, in a "democratic way", instead of this "when our prophets speak, the thinking has been done" nonsense? Why is it that your church (assuming you're still a member), only those "called" to authority have any ability to interpret and discuss spiritual doctrine, and all others must shut their mouths and accept it without question?
That's why at a typical Christian (non-LDS) bookstore you can find many books discussing many viewpoints about God and Christianity, but at a Deseret Bookstore or Seagull Books you find no such diversity of views, but rather nothing but glowing books from self-proclaimed prophets telling you how to live your life.
In Mormonism you're not allowed to dissent or even slightly disagree, otherwise someone like Boyd Packer would promptly excommunicate you.
pk26pk26 So, are you saying that because certain aspects of Mormonism can be difficult to explain, the LDS Church should choose its leaders and doctrines based on popular vote? I don't see how that would make anything easier to understand. Nor do I see how that could ensure true doctrine was taught. What if the majority of the people are incorrect and the Church begins teaching falsehoods?
Yes, I am still a Mormon, as I have been all my life. I never once felt like I must shut my mouth and accept everything without question. I've always been taught to search, ponder and pray to discover if the things I'm taught are true and if the men teaching them truly are called of God. In the times of Moses and even Jesus Christ, there was just one man speaking on the Lord's behalf. No voting. Just preaching of the doctrine and allowing people to choose to follow it or not. Why would that system need to change today?
And I believe most LDS bookstores are a bit more diverse than you believe. Naturally the majority of the books will be LDS books, but I've seen a few by non-LDS Christians like C.S. Lewis and even some on Taoism, Islam and other world religions. In fact, I even took classes on different religions through the LDS Institute. If my religion was so bent on suppressing my will and forcing me to accept everything they say, then why did it allow me, even encourage me to study different faiths?
Dallin Turner Ever heard of Jim Jones?
David Koresh?
Would you really like to be a follower of self-proclaimed "prophets" like them???
Are you really deluded to think your church has safeguards in place to ensure that doesn't happen? If so I have a bridge in Bountiful I'd like to sell you.
We in the Christian world have a quid pro quo with our pastors regarding *trust*. A concept foreign to your church since they don't tell you, among other things, where your tithing money goes (it goes to build shopping malls and also buy up Florida swampland). We trust our clergy to teach us nothing besides what the Bible says. We also read our Bibles too. We also follow current events and are free to explore facts and life's mysteries. Not one of any of Protestantism's well-known denominations have a leader regarded as a "prophet" and that his views cannot be questioned. In addition, read Matthew 24:24 to get the real facts. It's reason why the Bible is prophetic. There would indeed be characters like Jones and Koresh that would come around. Over a century before them, there was a fellow like that named Smith. He didn't orchestrate a "doomsday" scenario, but he was no angel either; you can't say he didn't ask for trouble, which culminated at the Carthage jail. Attitudes like what Joseph Smith had in the 1830s are synonomous with megalomania. He didn't even preach the doctrines mentioned in the Book of Mormon!
Seriously, do you think LDS Institutes are credible at teaching about other religions? This is the church that slanders other denominations in its Manti pageant. Why is it no other denomination plants "Institute" buildings next to high schools and colleges? About as absurd as saying you'll find diversity in LDS bookstores. I visited both Deseret and Seagull stores. You'll find *none*. You'll find no books by Billy Graham, but you'll find lots of underwear with pagan symbols stitched on in the back of most of its locations!
Do yourself a favor:
POINT TO ME any official church publication that quotes a famous non-LDS Christian figure. I've pored over numerous pages of books and documents. I can only find a mention about Martin Luther and John Calvin being heroes (ironic) but absolutely no references to famous Christian figures in any printed material. Don't remember seeing any of their books in LDS bookstores.......but you'll find many copies of a book dedicated to overrated NFL player Eric Weddle! How do you expect others to not consider your church a cult, when it still has this persecution complex as well as ignorance about your own church you're demonstrating in your own post? 34 wives? September Six? Shopping malls? Missionaries struggling to get by, treated like dirt becuase they can't find any converts? Mountain Meadows? Steve Benson? Anything?
pk26pk26 OK, now you've gone too far. Eric Weddle is an All-Pro safety! How dare you call him overrated! :)
Anyway, let's try to get back on topic. This is an hour-long video claiming that Mormonism is "impossible." To try to show that it's not impossible, I referenced a talk by Brad Wilcox - not the prophet - but a member of the general board of the Sunday School and a BYU professor. I suggest you check it out.
I don't comment on these videos to try to convince anyone that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. That's a complete waste of time. Rather, I come here to challenge myself. And I remind myself why I am a Mormon. There is no adequate alternative.
I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is the word of God. And because I believe in the Bible, I also believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. It has the same spirit and voice as the Bible. Either both are true or neither are.
But since I believe in both, then that means Joseph Smith was a true prophet just like Moses and Elijah. Then everything else falls into place through study and faith. Unless one is willing to be open enough to entertain that notion, then there's no point in discussing matters further.
Please do not attribute the mistakes of men to the Church as whole or the doctrine it teaches. I apologize if you've had negative experiences with the Church. People are not perfect, but I believe the gospel of Christ is. And in my experience, no one teaches the gospel better than the LDS Church.
it's so weird seeing you in this video standing at a podium talking to a group of people since i've gotten so used to seeing you as the "quick question for gun control advocates" guy at a desk in short videos. one of my favorite videos of you in that series was the number 16 one titled "are you okay with that?".
Troy, I can't leave them at that. First, I do not respect lies and second, I believe in a literal hell. The most loving thing I can do is warn them about the lies that will send them there. Surely you are not suggesting that the most loving thing to do is allow Mormons to go to hell unchallenged.
The verse means your works only count after you are saved by grace you were saved by grace after all you can do meaning afterward all you can do grace first
"We are saved by grace AFTER all we can do". They do all they can do THEN get saved by grace. But no one does all they can do, so they aren't saved according to Joseph Smith.
8:40 he says.."its in plain English". The language that did not even exist when this was actually written.
It seems he was referring to the Oaks quote and specially to the word "qualify." So, that was just from Oaks I think. Also, even if it was in reference to a book of mormon quote......Didn't the "translation" happen word for word and the seer stone wouldn't move on until it was 100% accurate? Which then also leads to the question of why were there any changes to any words if it was such a precise method? Nelson demonstrated with a replica white hat too as the current "prophet."
Before I take my time to view this, do you include a representative of the LDS church to give your members the other side of the story?
"what more can I offer" vs "Grace CANNOT SUFFICE without TOTAL effort on the part of the recipient."
Let's see what Jesus said about your question
Matt 25 [23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: **enter thou into the joy of thy lord** [24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: [25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. [26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: [27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. [29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. [30] **And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth**
I also recommend reading until the end of the chapter. Christ made it clear that our mouth will not save us.
First, general conference talks do not qualify as official LDS doctrine. LDS do value them for the the wisdom and encouragement they provide, but the line in the video stating that *"The "Words of the Lord" spoken in General Conference are binding upon all Mormons"* is not true. Conference talks, while they do contain doctrinal statements, also contain the personal opinions of the speakers, and personal opinions do not qualify as official doctrine.
Secondly, I take exception to the assertion that the gospel as taught by the church is impossible. I've been a member of the church for 60+ years now, and have yet to come across any teaching that was impossible.
Mormons are so quick to say they have prophets. But, when we quote them, they are just as quick to say, "That's not doctrine." Mormons have essentially become their own prophets, picking and choosing what they want to believe.
Romans 11:5-6 (comparing with those who didn't worship a false god) "In the same way also at this time there is a remnant left in The Election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work." (Works has to do with following the commandments of the Law).
Gal 2:21
"I do not reject the grace of God, for if righteousness is by The Written Law, The Messiah died for nothing."
Do I need repent by doing all that I can do, obeying all the commandments and ordinances of LDS to be righteous before God? DEFINITELY NOT!!!
Ahhh yes self style ministers, self style ministries, all preaching the word of God in their names and in their churches, God must be so divided as to be called "evidence ministries" and UTLM and countless others.
Phil 2:12 "Therefore beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not when I am near to you only, but now when I am far from you, all the more, with awe and with trembling, do the service of your life."
Greek has ―"Work out (effecting) your own salvation". This is not the meaning of the Aramaic, not by a long shot.
The Greek is incorrect. Salvation comes by faith in Jesus, trusting him when we learn to hear his voice, while longing for him. It's the heart, not to work salvation on our part. Jesus did it all, we just are acting out our love to him. Repentance is what we do when we've done sin. Then we continue, and we are saved. We must not stay in an un-forgiven state.
Romans 5:10
"For if when we were enemies, God was reconciled with us in the death of his Son, how much more therefore, in his reconciliation, shall we live all the more by his life?"
Romans 6:6-8
"For we know that our old person was crucified with him, that the body of sin would be destroyed, that we shall not again serve sin. For whoever is dead has been freed from sin. If therefore we are dead with The Messiah, let us believe that we shall live with The Messiah."
We are free from sin, because our old person WAS crucified with Jesus. Our body of sin is destroyed! That means we shall avoid to serve sin, because we have been freed from sin. We are already freed from sin. WE ARE DEAD WITH JESUS. THEREFORE, WE SHALL LIVE WITH JESUS!
Sin has no sting on us, we are dead with Jesus. Our old body does not exist.
Mormons have no idea of the gospel of Jesus. They live in a lie.
If we sin, even though we are freed from sin, we can be cleansed from all sin, by Jesus' blood, if we ask forgiveness, which is a state of the heart, not wanting to sin. It's the state of the heart, our love towards Jesus. John 1:1-11 - walking in the light means to have love to God and man by what God gives. All things come from God. We cannot do anything without God's aid. Nothing can take us from Jesus.
If forgiveness according to Mormonism is after we have forsaken our sins then why do we need a savior? It sounds like we do the work of forsaking and Christ only takes our hands to lead us to heaven.
That’s sickening to me.
Mormonism is so messed up.
Jesus actually went to the lowest of lows to save me out of the gutters. I can’t do it on my own.
I don't understand the point of this video, why target Mormon? why not target anyone that doesn't attend your church? who gave you authority to do so?
I was there for this training session. Most of the people are there because we want Mormons to hear the true message of grace. We love them. We do not like Mormonism, but we love Mormons. We are against any false doctrine. God's calling has been to JWs and Mormons. Mine has been as well. Jesus gave us authority. John 1:12 says-But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
About the perfect statement at the end. Again you teach only what you want people to see. (Read Joseph B Wirthlin, One Step after Another October 2001) Right at the top of it gives an exert. When you made these videos Keith you said you would only teach facts that doesn't appear that way to me. Oh and Keith listening to you babel in this video I have to say is the worst video you have ever made. You could of just made it 20 minutes long to get your point across. I don't mean to put you down about the long video but I think you could of made it much shorter and alot more people would of watch this video. (P.S. it only took me 3 minutes to write this and find the information off of lds org.
Not every catches on as quickly as you did. Repetition gives other people a better chance to understand the point I'm trying to make.
@@EvidenceMinistries My biggest problem with those who oppose the Church is they repeat the same thing over and over even if it's not true. Just because you can repeat it a million times doesn't make it true. In psychology they have a word for this when a person repeats over and over the same thing even after the claims are false - gas lighting.
Those who do oppose we sometimes make memes about it because they have been repeating the same questions for 100 and in some case almost 200 years even though they have been answered.
So if those who oppose are actually honest why do they keep repeating the same questions even after they have been answered?
@@BOON70 There is a difference between a reply and an answer. I get many replies. Rarely any answers.
If you have any questions ask me. This man is referencing the verses out of context and not reading the whole scripture. TH-cam Brad Wilcox "His grace is sufficient ". Watch and learn. There are Christians who do not know their religion, so too are there Mormons who do not know what they believe. You should be so busy preaching your faith that you have no time to find fallacy with other religions. Just as JESUS admonished his disciples to not dissuade others who were preaching about JESUS just because they were not part of their fold, I admonish you to not do the same. Preach and believe how you will but, look up what happens to those who offend others out of the Gospel. It would be better for him that a millstone were tied about his neck and he were cast into the sea.
James, thanks for engaging with this. You reference Brad Wilcox's talk, which is indeed interesting. However, in practice you shouldn't get ANY further than the title of the talk, in my opinion!!! Why, you might ask? Well, the LDS Bible Dictionary of Grace says that, quote : "Grace CANNOT SUFFICE without TOTAL effort on the part of the recipient." (emphasis mine)... so Brad says grace is sufficient, official church publication says grace is NOT sufficient. Surely your pooint fails straight away?
You sure have gone off the deep end haven't you Troy. You're not even a Mormon anymore so why do you care?