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The Oldest Quranic Manuscripts
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ย. 2009
- From Wikipedia:
Gerd Puin was the head of a restoration project, commissioned by the Yemeni government, which spent a significant amount of time examining the ancient Qur'anic manuscripts discovered in Sana'a, Yemen, in 1972. According to writer Toby Lester, his examination revealed "unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment." The scriptures were written in the early Hijazi Arabic script, matching the pieces of the earliest Qur'ans known to exist. The papyrus on which some of the text appears shows clear signs of earlier use, being that previous, scraped-off writings are also visible on it, though this does not necessarily demonstrate modifications to the over-all text of the Qur'an.
More than 15,000 sheets of the Yemeni Qur'ans have painstakingly been cleaned, treated, sorted, and photographed and 35,000 microfilmed photos have been made of the manuscripts. Some of Puin's initial remarks on his findings are found in his essay titled the "Observations on Early Qur'an Manuscripts in San'a" which has been republished in the book What the Koran Really Says by Ibn Warraq.
via atheistmedia.com
@semo2010 Yes we know the detailed story and how the versus were written on pieces of goat skin, stones, bones etc. and we also know the reasons Othman wanted to write down the Koran. It was not only to unify the pronunciation but because the group of people who were supposed to have memorized it were dying in wars and their numbers reduced.
Excellent video. A good insight to textual variations also available in the Quran. Not something openly discussed in Muslim circles.
this is not true.
togetcloser The misinformation Muslims are told since they were little kids is not true. They take it for granted and assume that what our parents tell us must be true. Not to say that our parents are misleading us, as they too were mislead. The fact is when you look at the claims Muslims make, one sees that it has no factual bearing.
Mohamed Il-Nasrani not at all, probably silly stories from hadiths, but this video is utterly lie. Moreover, Muslims all over the world manage to memorize Qur'an, so what doable today, it was doable then as well.
www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/soth.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript
Foolish men can only believe, but the wise understand.
togetcloser This video is not about Hadith. This video is about the hard evidence indicating that Quran tampering did occur. It's a shame that Utthman burned all the manuscripts he could get his hands on. People only do things like that if they have something to hide.
In regards to memorization, this is not evidence. It's not tangible.
Do not take for granted the information your sheikhs, imams or even your own mom told you as a kid. People are not born into the right religion. You must be born again.
SSTV I've missed the point you are trying to make.
We muslim we accept , we believe and that' s it , we don' t need 1000 miracles , we have one miracle good enough until the end of time : qoran .
Your argument is pretty pathetic: I believe in the Quran because it is a miracle. Circular argument
The only miracle is billions following a pedophile warlord prophet
That is the fundamental problem with Muslims
@@adiw888we believe in the Quran because of the way in which it was revealed and the fact that it was spoken by an illiterate man who knew of no poetry or had prior knowledge of any science or history. Despite this the Quran contains scientific miracles historical miracles and the “poetry” in the Quran couldn’t be matched by anyone during his time, keep in mind poetry was a huge thing in that time. 1400 years later no book like the Quran has come. Anyway ur a close minded person who will never believe most likely no matter how much evidences u see. If u are truly open minded listen a video of the Quran with Arabic verses followed by English translation. U will most likely not do that but if you’d like to know why we believe listen. Take care bro
Yes. Quran is miracle where in the oldest manuscripts allah forgets to put dialectic marks which were later added by humans. So allah didn't know basic arabic grammar. You argument is epitome of ignorance which caused arrogance.
@sipraomer
what sort of moronic God would choose "the most ambiguous language" for his revelation ?
what good is there in revealing a message which then can be interpreted in umpteen different ways ?
Does anyone know where I can watch the full documentary this is taken from? Where Tariq Ramadan isn't cut off at the end... Thank you!
Well done. Praise the Lord for your good work!
Here is an equally great problem than the one you correctly raised:
What do Muslims think about this difference in Surah 10:16 between the Hafs and Al Bazzi reading according to the Bridges Quran? Does that not change the meaning of the verse?
Say, "Had Allah willed, I would not have read it to you and He would not have informed you about it . . .(Surah 10:16, Al Bazzi reading has ". . . and He would have informed you . . .)
Source: Bridges’ Translation of the Ten Qira’at
Is this a contradiction and proof that the Quran was not perfectly preserved?
Are we witnessing the end of the Quran as Muslims know it?
@sipraomer If the following is true "Quran can be recited in several different ways", why can it not be recited in other languages or be translated into other languages and retain its initial meaning?
It can. But then, when there is a contradiction, it will be stated it ia because of the interpreted translation...
It's like saying can't and cannot are two different words with two different meanings 🤦🏻♂️
@sunnimanhaj
4/4
Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed to be recited in this way." Allah" Apostle added, "The Quran has been revealed to be recited in several different ways, so recite of it that which is easier for you."
Here are the variants in the Sana palimpsest th-cam.com/video/XyfML3DIAwY/w-d-xo.html
millions memorize whole of it anyway...since years ago...^ ^
Here are the variants in the Sana palimpsest th-cam.com/video/XyfML3DIAwY/w-d-xo.html
@simp hunter yes I know like here th-cam.com/video/WCNDDnOqU4g/w-d-xo.html
@@inquisitivemind007 The message in this video explains a situation worse than the issue of variants.
@@inquisitivemind007 even if there are some variants but still it's little mistakes made by the one who wrote it human is not a machine but the othmane standrised version has no veriation and the Quran we have now is the same all over the world not like the bible which get updates like John 5:7 which was added recently according to Christians
@@salah777 you can't compare the quran with the bible
What beautiful writing, and such a wonderful find. Definitely a precious gift to the human race.
Loriann Stevens. It’s the worst gift to the human race and has left a trail of blood and misery throughout history.
@@globalexplorer5872 you r blind and narrow minded person. If you want to criticise other religions, then know it's first.
You must be in love with someone of this faith...I have seen that to be the only reason anyone is drawn to this cult of blood and gore..
@Fish Fingers references please
A collection of stolen sources from Jewish, Sabian, Christian, even Gnostic nonsense all rolled up into the Devils Manual inciting hatred of other religions.
Surah 19:83
Do they not see We have sent down devil's upon the Unbelievers to incite them to opposethe truth.
Like I said the Devils masterpiece.
All he "found" was that certain parts were not in the order we have today (Quran is not in the order of revelation anyway nor does it need to be due to its format). As for textual minor differences, they admit they found no actual contradictions in the meanings (similarly in modern times if we type the word realise in the UK with an S but in america realize is spelt with a Z we wouldn't make a big deal about it).
Furthermore the primary form of Quranic preservation was memorisation, even today millions have it memorised word for word and there is no evidence of this chain ever being broken since its revelation. What we see in this video has not changed anything.
CTRyzer
Lol. Your allahu akkbar had no idea about how arabic will change in future, lol.
Quran is modified. Quran is nonsense book made by makkan frauds and desert terrorists
th-cam.com/video/sO8TynsAL0Q/w-d-xo.html
Watch this. You don't know what you're talking about
betta bruh r these guys even scholars wa it’s gonna change if I watch it ignorance 😂🤦🏾♂️
Here are the variants in the Sana palimpsest th-cam.com/video/XyfML3DIAwY/w-d-xo.html
@sunnimanhaj
"ignored fact that I cited"
Your references did not address my point.
"intact since the time of the Prophet Muhammad"
There is no solid evidence for the existence of the Prophet, not to speak of a Quran that remained intact.
Before, during, and after the complete revelation of the Quran, it has always been recited along with being written down. While early written scripts may have seemed confusing to modern readers, it is important to remember that the Quran has a strong oral tradition. The written script serves as a memory aid for "Hafiz" or Quranic reciters. Thus, the preservation of the Quran relies on both written and oral traditions.
The recitation of the Quran is considered an essential part of its transmission and preservation. From the time of its revelation to the Prophet Muhammad, the Quran was recited and memorized by his followers. This practice continues today, with many Muslims around the world memorizing the entire Quran, known as becoming a "Hafiz" (Memorizer of the Quran) .
The dual preservation method-both written and oral-ensures the Quran remains intact and unchanged. The written text of the Quran, known as the Mushaf, serves as a reference and aid for recitation. This meticulous preservation has been noted by scholars and historians as a unique feature of the Quranic text .
References:
1. Saeed, A. (2006). *Interpreting the Quran: Towards a Contemporary Approach*. Routledge.
2. Brown, D. (2007). *A New Introduction to Islam*. Wiley-Blackwell.
3. Neuwirth, A. (2010). *The Quran and Late Antiquity: A Shared Heritage*. Oxford University Press.
4. Small, K. (2011). *The Transmission of the Qur'an: In the Early Period of Islam*. Harrassowitz Verlag.
@Wrath0fKhan The problem with your method of assessment is that you're trying to use 'higher criticism' to discard the Qur'an without taking into consideration the fact that the major method of Quranic preservation is memorisation unlike any other ancient book including the Bible that are solely based on written records.
a thousands thanks to Dr M, Mustafa Azami for created a book The History of The Quranic Text ~from revelation to compilation~ that answered all the Orientalism thought about the Quran Texts and History 😊 May Allah always blessing him
2/4
"...He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You are telling a lie; By Allah! Allah's Apostle taught me (in a different way) this very Surah which I have heard you reciting." So I took him, leading him to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I heard this person reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way that you did not teach me, and you have taught me Surat-al-Furqan..."
Very helpful to see the professionals analyze the Sana Skripts! It’s not only to see the differences in compare with the Cairin texts but it shows as well that a human government uniformed the Quran not Allāh. Again interesting that it needs a german scientist doing that job, and for 1400 years there was no Muslim who was interested to figure out anything of the Quran origins. What a massive difference to biblical research an they’re transparent scientific “revelations”.
Asalaam alaikum, FYI Many Muslim Scholars have done this research, there are books written on it and recent lectures on this topic are also available. i know this because i am a student doing my degree in quranic studies.
By the way, the German scholar doesn’t speak Arabic and doesn’t know the Oldest manuscript found in Birmingham . That’s why he is inserting wrong information
@sunnimanhaj
"extremely liberal"
No... Im extremely "conservative." Yet its not "conservative" in the theological sense of meaning, but rather in the "methodological naturalism" meaning.
"scribal mistakes"
I even didnt mention those once. Not a single time.
Brother, the Qurran was written and memorised at the same time. The prophet used to ask his companions to pray and recite the Qurran. So did some of his wife. There is nowhere in christian world where you can find someone who memorsie the bible like we do with the Quarran. If you want to know how the bible is corrupted just pick up a catholic and the Protestant bibles and compare and contrast. As regard racisim, I am a victim of it too.
Then why uthman burn different Quran? If everyone has the same verse?
@@jhnnbhfvv6405 He burned the copies original Qur'an remains same till date.
@@rahimrichards7107 Except he didn't burn all the evidence of variations. Otherwise we wouldn't have Warsh or Hafs versions.
@@jhnnbhfvv6405 so that no one will come with a piece of paper a hundred years later claiming that he found it in his late grandfather's closet while he was cleaning it
So you claim. Claims are not evidence.
second he said defferent in the reading so what I know that and every muslims know that it is a fact that there is different in the reading but the meaninig is the same
and he said one word could have thirty different meaning so what every arabic speaker know that and the small boy know that it is our language and we can
recognize the meaning between the thirty meaning it is our fucken language do you understand
so your try to corrupt the quran failed
What is the name of the documentary?
Just ask your self why Allah should chose one who cant read or wright. Also the story about Gabriel who forced him to read but he should know better? Why does an angel doesnt know that he cant read. Also at first Mohemmed wasnt sure of him self if this was real or maybe he just gone mad. There was something wrong just from the beginning!
what is wrong about that?
to read sometimes you dont need to see you can just repeat after the person read something hope thats shut your mouth or ill break your teeth out.
Gieszkanne read has a double meaning it means recite ( say it with me) not just read
Is difficult to read it because no baris😁, subhanallah,that the miracle of old Qur'an.
The whole point of the points and lines is what we call "new arabic" because new converts to islam can have difficulty reading it,so they added these dots and lines to help.
bullshit normal everyday arabic is written without diacritical marks
it's like playing a piano guided with book chord. madmarvin99 im sure you realized why people played well even it's was his first time play the song he pick..with chord guided. and so as these dot and line in Quran. Sorry my bad english.
liar!!
@@MegaBaddog It's not those marks he was talking about, it's the marks to distinguish similar letters such as ب ت ث and ط ظ etc. These are used by *all* speakers of Arabic today.
@sunnimanhaj
"millions of Muslims today have memorised the Quran"
Vast majority of Muslims (about 3/4ths) dont even speak Arabic.
"compared to the NT manuscripts"
My original argument had nothing to do with NT manuscripts at all. It was entirely based on traditional Muslim texts.
"do you reject the NT"
For the most part, indeed. Thats because none of those "spiritual claims" can be replicated. Same demonstrably applies to Islam.
Individual words can have a many as 30 different meanings. Fantastic. And palimpsests. Revisions?
Here are the variants in the Sana palimpsest th-cam.com/video/XyfML3DIAwY/w-d-xo.html
@Zackerybob
there were shorthand copies of Quran written by natives without vowel points. It was easy for native readers since they understood the context. But as Islam spread outside Arabia, people started reciting incorrectly - which is when these shorthand notes were done away with and a copy with full vowel points was produced by Caliph Uthman which is in circulation today.
In brief, this German looks funny reading shorthand notes and telling the world that may be natives got it wrong.
Glad to learn that experts can debunk the quran. It is also time for the world to stop the law of shariah.
sharia doesnt even exist in islamic countries stop islamophobia -_- , and he's wrong because of his lack of knowledge on ilsam , since quran was first memorised then written , untill now it is the only book memorised by millions . and tarik ramadan who talks at last is a famous philosoph and he's still muslim
Friedrich Von der Berg so you're gonna take what these "experts" say about the Quran only, ignoring what the muslims scholars have to say? sounds like ignorance to me.
The manuscripts have actually proven nothing.
There remains to be seen any alternative version of the Qur'an.
The carbon dating of the Yemeni manuscript indicates a wide date range.
Here are the variants in the Sana palimpsest th-cam.com/video/XyfML3DIAwY/w-d-xo.html
@Furious Taco Warrior This video was posted 13 years ago and anything has still yet to be "proven" 😂 Allahu Akbar 🎉
Fascinating.
Here are the variants in the Sana palimpsest th-cam.com/video/XyfML3DIAwY/w-d-xo.html
@s
"being unable to speak Arabic does not impede the ability of a person to memorise the Quran"
You are missing the point again. There were no "millions of people" back then. Maybe a couple hundred, later a couple thousand. Only in current times there are millions of people. About the year 1000 CE the Mediterranean population started even massively to decline, recovering much, much later. As well, only a small "%" of population is able to "do so" (obviously for several reasons).
@Wrath0fKhan In fact, traditionally, it was not only obligatory for scholars to memorise the Qur'an but they were also instructed to memorise books of hadith and books of scholars like the al-umm of imam al-shafi'i. It is common knowledge among students of Islam that in order for a person to be a mujtahid besides memorising the Qur'an he too has to have memorised more than 400 000 narrations as stated by Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal and others.
@sunnimanhaj
2/4
He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You are telling a lie; By Allah! Allah's Apostle taught me (in a different way) this very Surah which I have heard you reciting." So I took him, leading him to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I heard this person reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way that you did not teach me, and you have taught me Surat-al-Furqan."
Arabic ppl could read this easy in the old days but when other nation came to islam they added the dots to make it clear sorry guys there is only one quran and it came for allah try harder
musllim always said that quran never changed even a little
if modern culture could change how quran word appear in that book, then that's mean that quran has changed. if quran not changed, then it will writen in old style. not new style.
excuse me, next time try to using brain and think
lol don't you get it I can read in Arabic the same quran that been read and heard with no single change so the fact is the quran never been changed and never will be so ether accept this or show me evidence that support your claim like intelligent ppl do instead of using degrading words like trash ppl do
if old arab literature was come from god, how come it's hard to read and need help from other country to fix it. fact that quran doesn't use it's old alphabetic was a sign that modern quran has been changed.
how can you guarantee this modern quran have the right meaning like how it actually is? how to guarantee modern quran doesn't have wrong meaning from the original quran words?
lol you are the one who need to face the facts 1st of all not a single word been changed which no one can challenge if you have any proof that a single word been changed you should show evidence but you cant
now meaning is not the issue here lol you need to read the quran 1st there is a lot of the quran that is still a mystery doesn't mean that it change meaning from time to time some verses come clear some still don't
the issue why the quran is in Arabic is in the quran if you have read it you would know the answer but most ppl don't want to face the truth just claim and assume a lot with zero evidence lol
notice that your own opinion and what you thing don't stand as evidence in any debate also when you say my ex muslim friend told me also don't work you should try and elevate your method of discussion or debate and use evidence to support your claim so you don't get defeated like this lol
why muslim always using double standart?
when christian translating old bible with dificult word to understand then make a better one that is easy to understand without changing any single meaning, muslim told that we change our bible. but when the same logic used to judge quran, you said no one is changed. i'm just using the same logic that you moslem always use to judge bible.
YOUR QURAN IS CORRUPTED BECAUSE IT'S NOT USING THE ORIGINAL ARAB TEXT
So this is why Muslims don't let anyone criticize the manuscripts of the Quran, because it can be easily proven to be corrupted.
ChristisRisen Nop, in-fact it challenges all mankind.
"And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah(chapter) the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful." QUR'AN 2:23
F- tech Sorry, I don't trust the Quran as a historical document. It got that Jesus was a Muslim and just a man wrong, because it was written 600 years after Jesus lived, now that is too late to be considered reliable.
Are you good enough to go to heaven?
ChristisRisen
No need to be sorry, I believe the Bible is corrupted as well & Quran is not a history book it's Book of signs(Ayat). The Quran never mention Jesus being a Muslim but he believed in one God (non-idolatry) and he never claimed divinity nor he said worship me; so we believe: in his time the real Christians never worshiped him and after his disappearance his scripture was corrupted by fellow human being.
I'm sinful, but please pray for me; Heaven is my objective.
F- tech So you are not sure if you died today that you would go to heaven? If you would go to heaven do you know how to get there?
+ChristisRisen jesus did not even exist as a physical person/entity! the exodus of moses is just mere fantasy proven by real archaelogy. these two things are in the bible and quran. well proves that they both are faerie tales
Seriously to consider, are there "revealed" verses that never made it into the Quran?
1/2
Bukhari 8.82.816:
"'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse,..."
Just imagine how ambiguous thous stories must have been, any one could have read it the way he would wanted. Our minds are extremely unreliable when it comes to stirring information, especially detailed inf. This with the text ambiguity meant that even the Muslim scullers would not have the original meaning! Add to this the fact that before it was written down it was passed along orally, which undermines the credibility of the Qur'an
My main criticism of the liberal/moderate/secular/moderate/ wasathiyah/pluralist/ revisionist/progressive approach as well as the conservative/traditionalist/salaf approach and other approaches currently circulating is that all of these approaches only place the Qur'an alone as kalamullah/ayatullah. as if the product of kalamullah is only al quran, as if only the heavenly books. whereas there are many products of the nature of al kalam, including ayat tarikhiyyah (human history), ayat kauniyah (universe), and ayat insaniyah (human self). al quran itself recognizes the existence of these 3 types of ayatullah (besides itself, besides al quran itself).
The end result of studying/interpreting/interpreting all the other products of Allah's word that have the status of ayatollahs (signs of Allah's power/guidance) have the same status as "dalil shara" as does the end result of studying the product of Allah's word called al quran. Furthermore, because all of them have the status of "dalil shara", all of the above ayatollahs also have the status of sources of Islamic law (mashadir ahkam).
So the "dalil of shara" derived from the research of non-religious scientists (such as the laws of physics, the laws of biology, the laws of psychology, mathematical formulas, statistics, etc.) have the same status as "dalil shara", derived from the study of the kalamullah / ayatullah called al quran, because the "dalil shara" are also derived from the same products, namely the products of the implementation of the same attribute of God: kalamullah.
Furthermore: thus the "dalil shara" can all naskh the laws of other ayatollahs because they are all products that have the same legal position / level (both ayatollahs). the origin of lex posteriori derogate lex anteriori also applies in the discussion of legal relations between "dalil shara" drawn from the 4 types of ayatollahs. wallahualam.
3/4
"...The Prophet said, "O Hisham, recite!" So he recited in the same way as I heard him recite it before. On that Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed to be recited in this way." Then Allah's Apostle said, "Recite, O 'Umar!" So I recited it as he had taught me..."
Bro with all due respect its all made up. :)
Saying that something that was written by men is eternal and a miracle is very bold claim. However, when you find folklore, pagan stories and Jewish/Christian Apocrypha dotted all over Quran that claim seems to fall apart. Also the claim of the Arabic preservation seems to be unfounded when the evidence points to Aramaic being the mother language of the Quranic texts.
@Wrath0fKhan We know that both meanings are acceptable as they are related to each other. In Arabic 'hand' is equated with 'power'. So Aydin in 51:47 means both hands and power. What Muslim scholars would have understood is that God has revealed both meanings. That is the amazing nature of the Qur'an. The words can have multiple meanings which is why the Qur'an is described by the scholars as 'al bahr' which is 'wasee' jiddan'.
Dont you get the point? The sana'a quran is dated earlier then the ithmanic quran, and they both have differences, that means that you are all reading the quran of uthman, yes now every quran is more or less the same, but the purpose of historical research is whether there were differences before uthman made his own version, and the sana'a quran shows that BEFORE uthman there were different qurans
You are the one who don't get the point and don't understand how this religion works. Sana'a is unknown manuscripts not different from Biblos/Gospel. And we can't rely on such manuscript just like we don't believe the Bible/gosple bcz of the same reason (they are lack reference author by "only God knows") while Ustman was well known person. Successor and close companion of prophet. Native Speaking Quraish just like prophet Muhammad Pbuh and person who met, spoke, heard, learned and understood Quran from prophet pbuh directly. If you choose anynomous scriptures over Uthman version I'm not suprised you also believe anynomous Bible as word of God. Standarization was inisiated bcz of this. Probably Sana'a was one of those unauthorized version that survived. It was found hiden in ceiling in Yemen mosque (why is it hidden and who was the author ? Only God knows).
Qur'an has never changed.
@Wrath0fKhan There are also thousands of schools around the world whose main concern is to assist students to memorise the whole of the Qur'an. One such school is Darul Qur'an in Selangor, Malaysia. Many of the students there are my friends. It is also known historically that the scholars of Islam memorise the Qur'an at a very young age(usually below 10). One of the primary criteria to be a mujtahid in fiqh/shari'ah is to have memorised the Qur'an as stated by Imam al-Suyuti etc.
Suyuti lived in the 15th century. Why do you think he represents the 7th century? You must have 3 IQ.
This video is proof that the Quran was not preserved nor 1 version, but many all stuffed and refined over 100s of years,
this is damning not support...which version was will God in paradise before man 2as made, not the 1924 Cairo version, which one of the many differing versions found without vowels in Sana?
They don't get differences but they get easier to read
We don't need the written one, people have been memorizing the Quran,for 1400 years during prayers and it never change
Cool story bro. You read 1924 Cairo edition. My grandma is older than your Qur'an.
thsts where u are wrong habibi the quran experienced thousand changes u are not even aware of
@@el_chico1313 What changes?
@@OrdoMallius do you mean the printed version?
@sipraomer
"Please visit this site"
I know that site quite well. Its not really a valuable scientific source. Its rather a propaganda source.
"if you still persist on disagreeing then its your choice"
Of course I persist on disagreeing. Of course it is my choice. It is my choice because of evidence and because of lack of evidence and falsification of evidence on your part.
Dots and lines are easy to read with out wrong adding dots will not change the word it gives more easier to read it doesn't spoil by adding dots the word is same adding or not adding word or meaning never change because it's from Allah subhanahuwathala
religion is just the science of 5700, 2000 and 1300 years ago before we knew much and had a lot of day dream time.
modern science doesn't kill the non-believer or demand complete submission, it only demands you ask questions and find the most accurate answers you can without resorting to swapping ignorance for miracles.
@ lol, provide convincing evidence for god and we'll start your revision from there😸
@ what you did there is called "circular argument" aka pointing to the story as proof of its contents.
This does not qualify as convincing evidence because by this standard the hindu Vedas are proof of brahma and krishna, and the Ugaritic library is proof of the existence of the god Ba'al.
@ its your duty to find out, because you made the claim, i merely pointed to the logical fallacy in your claim
@ you might wanna start here
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creation_myths
@ C.S. Lewis's opinion is deeply appreciated but unfortunately cant replace a through investigation of unfounded claims... Besides the buddha isnt the representation of hinduism... And look up that list of creation myths, hinduism is a mere fraction of the different claims to some sort of "divinity"...
Every believer claims his religion to be true and unique, so your preferences cant constitute a standard of proof for the same reasons, its a circular argument.
Piease do not distort facts.The oldest Manuscript today available is the Usmani Quran which was written in the reign of the 4th caliph.A copy of that is still available in Istambul in Turky.Unity of the Quran is an established fact.
@maxtravells
2/4
"... He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You are telling a lie; By Allah! Allah's Apostle taught me (in a different way) this very Surah which I have heard you reciting." So I took him, leading him to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I heard this person reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way that you did not teach me, and you have taught me Surat-al-Furqan."..."
Off Course that looks very different (doesn't has any signs), since that only able to read by arabic native, the most important is Qur'an has been memorize (even by heart) by many sahaba since then and nowaday, so that's way it doesn't make any problem.
Why is there like 14 qira'at or readings then? Doesn't that mean that there should be just one? Topical islamist bullshit lmao
س wa do u know bout qirat they all hav da same meaning unlike da bible Arabic language doesn’t hav just one dialogue😂😂🤦🏾♂️
can somebody tell me what documentary this is from?
The reason old Quran doesn’t show the vowels because people living there at that time knew what the word was.
Yupp, for non native Arabic like me, those vowels and signs letter help me read.
@sunnimanhaj
"does not necessitate"
Practically it does. Because its the most likely explanation.
"One God"
This is yet another false analogy of yours. Its rather simple to come up with a fairy tale about one "God". Its much harder come up with a similar fairy tale text, where even the verses seem to be copied one to one.
Tell us please what corruption there is in the Qurran.
@maxtravells
1/4
Bukhari 6.61.561:
"Narrated Umar bin Khattab:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited it in several ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. So I was on the point of attacking him in the prayer, but I waited till he finished his prayer, and then I seized him by the collar and said, "Who taught you this Surah which I have heard you reciting?"..."
Where is smoking gun
1) Now the text below has been deciphered and printed--------differences are very minor (order of verses)....which was expected as islamic history mentions the existence of such codices
2) The introduction of vowels took place in the time of Hejaz bin yusuf time-
so whatever is discovered is no different from what we already know
@sunnimanhaj
"Quranic preservation"
After the Q was codified it rather becomes stable. No one seriously disputes that. The origin is disputed. The cocktail of ancient and (back then) contemporary texts making it into the Q is rather obvious.
Some people say that the quran was changed by looking at these constructed videos. All I got from this was that languages change over time. So how can u expect the quran to remain in its exact language. Its the message of the quran which is protected by the all mighty. Not the language.
@sunnimanhaj
"conflating the issue"
You still dont get it. There evidently were multiple fairy tale stories based on some historic background. Only some of those made it into the Quran.
"Quran is preserved"
After it was "codified, it remained preserved. No one doubts this.
wrong!!!!!
contradiction!
4:82 Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction. (this is saying there is some contridiction)
Surah 2:256 there is no compulsion in religion
Surah 9:29 says fight those who don’t believe in Allah
what happened to pharaoh?
surah 10:92 says pharaoh was saved
Surah 17:103 says God drowned him
Surah 12:41 spoke of crucifixion in Pharaohs day Crucifixion did not exist then
proof quran is not original
Surah 15:9 Indeed, it is he who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian
[We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought
A. Commentary Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif-Many (of the passages) of the Qur’an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama . . . but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur’an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them.
B. Commentary sahih bukhari 4987- and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.
C. Commentary sahih al-Bukhari 5005-Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”
D. Said Abu ‘Ubaid:Isma‘il b. Ibrahim related to us from Ayyub from Nafi‘ from Ibn ‘Umar who said-Let none of you say, “I have learned the whole of the Koran,” for how does he know what the whole of it is, when much of it has disappeared? Let him rather say, “I have learned what is extant thereof.”
E. Sahih Muslim 2286-Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it . . .
F. Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an-A’isha . . . said, “Surat al-Ahzab (xxxiii) used to be recited in the time of the Prophet with two hundred verses, but when Uthman wrote out the codices he was unable to procure more of it than there is in it today [i.e. 73 verses].”
G. Sunan ibn Majah 1944-It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
H.
Summary of the above
Surah 15:9 0f the quran say the quran has been sent down from god and god will guard it from corruption or being lost. Paragraph A a lot of the passages were verbally recited and memorised so the men that died parts of the quran died with them. Paragraph B there were many copies and the caliph at the time made judgement on what he though was correct and should remain I do not believe he was sent by god to make that judgement. Paragraph C says that they have not included everything that was being recited by others. Paragraph D confirming that a lot of the quran was missing and could not be recited. Parragraph E said he had forgotten part of it but remembered some. Parragraph F 127 verses are missing.Parragraph G a sheep ate the quran. so, god failed multiple times to be its guardian as promised in surah 15:9.
about the hindu Mababharata that is over 2,000 pages and the hindu vages that had been passed down word by word, for longer than the Quran or bible.
@Wrath0fKhan Which verse in the Qur'an seems to have been copied "ONE TO ONE" from a verse in the Bible? Please provide at least one example.
@sunnimanhaj
"borrows"
Most likely it does, because any other explanation is much more probable than revelation. This simply logically and demonstrably follows.
@s
"both meanings however are still correct"
Yet how do you know what meaning applies to the "revelation"? What if the "revelation" is supposed to be exclusively relating to one meaning only? Obviously this one guy was so enraged that he almost beat the other guy up. Why would he do that if the point of contention was only minor and irrelevant? Of course he wouldnt react that way. It was all about a perceived change of meaning - clearly indicating more "textual" variability.
@maxtravells
First of all, you don't know if the version that many have memorized for 1000 years is the same one memorized at the time of your prophet 1400 years ago. Without manuscripts, you have absolutely no evidence of this. When you have no documents, you have nothing. Telling me that the original (and unaltered) version was swirling around in the minds of a bunch of Arabs long ago is not convincing.
Secondly...
Here are the variants in the Sana palimpsest th-cam.com/video/XyfML3DIAwY/w-d-xo.html
If you hear what he said about the letters having more then 30 different meaning. He actually said each INDEPENDENT word can have different meanings but "old arabic" text can be written and said by old muslims and people who have either grown with the language or who actually LEARNED it.
If watch cautiously, Mr Puin says in 2:12 that this book is written around 705 CE, 70 years after our prophet died..
So it is clear that this is not our alquran.
Caliph Utsman who collect alquran is died on 656 CE.. So this book is newer if compared to alquran-utsmani..
So it is clearly stupid if anybody said this is the oldest alquran..
The alquran-utsmani is way older.
***** The reason why that book is not destroyed By Uthman when he collect the quran is because it is not even written yet..
As Puin Says in 2:12 , it is written 70 years after Muhammad died.. So it is written around 50 years after Uthman himself died..
The book is not quran, as it is much newer..
The book is just a book written using Arabic, and quoting some verses of quran..
***** But my dear friend.. in 2:12 Puin clearly describe that the book is written 70 years after death of Muhammad PBUH..
Your statement is against Puin's examination on this book..
Againts all fact if you say this book is another brach of Koran..
Many scholar have researched the Koran including many non-muslim..
I don't understand why you said the opposite..
I invite you to research it too.. Simply bought a koran or install a koran app.. :)
We (the muslim) is never objected anyone to study it.
_Why do you think such an old koran was preserved and not destroyed?_
Same reason an old copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was preserved. It serves the purpose of defaming the target.
@@AhmadPujianto001The stories that tell how the Qur'an was compiled come 150-200 years after this Qur'an. So actually, historically speaking this would be one the earliest artifacts of historical evidence for the existence of the Qur'an. The stories in the Hadith about the compilarion of the Qur'an have no eye witnesses or supporting historic evidence that supports those claims.
@sun
1/4
Bukhari 6.61.561:
"Narrated Umar bin Khattab:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited it in several ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. So I was on the point of attacking him in the prayer, but I waited till he finished his prayer, and then I seized him by the collar and said, "Who taught you this Surah which I have heard you reciting?"..."
@Wrath0fKhan No, it is the standard mainstream position to not take certain attributes of God literally. Usually, what is done is that we simply take the words as they are or if necessary then metaphorical(majaz) interpretation is given as I have already mentioned. Both are valid froma religious and linguistic standpoint. Afterall, the Qur'an itself testifies that it has been revealed in Arabic(referring to the language). So within the parameters of the Qur'an ta'weel is feasible.
@sunnimanhaj
"yes there is evidence"
No, there is not.
"I have already cited one"
Not a relevant one, since it didnt address my point at all.
"before being allowed to graduate"
Ive seen some of those people, they barely can do so and often many mistakes, barely babbling. Only a small handful can do it properly. Yet all of this has nothing to do with my original argument.
The old manuscripts haven't survived, the current copies of Quran goes to18-19 century...
Quranic manuscripts older than that have been discovered
That’s good Alhamdulillah
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to `Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before." So `Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to `Uthman. `Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, `Abdullah bin AzZubair, Sa`id bin Al-As and `AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. `Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.
sunnah.com/bukhari:4987
@sunnimanhaj
That kind of argument cant be uphold anymore. The internal Quranic and Hadith evidence exposed you several times already.
@sunnimanhaj
"Roger Penrose did - Is he a crackpot too"
He may be a brilliant mathematician, yet he is very "fringe" when the reality check knocks on the door. He has no "operative" explanation for the mechanism in question either, so he cant really claim what he does.
@Wrath0fKhan If you concede that there are thousands who have memorised the Qur'an then it is only reasonable to conclude that the Qur'an's mode of preservation is not merely in the written form but through memory.
@sunnimanhaj
3/4
The Prophet said, "O Hisham, recite!" So he recited in the same way as I heard him recite it before. On that Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed to be recited in this way." Then Allah's Apostle said, "Recite, O 'Umar!" So I recited it as he had taught me.
@sunnimanhaj Why is it that both meanings are acceptable? It is because Ayd in Arabic does literally mean either power or hands. In Arabic 'hands' can be understood metaphorically(isti'arah/majaz) as quwwatun. (Refer to Lisan al-arab, Taj al-'arus etc.)
@sunnimanhaj
"only a handful of scholars actually believe"
That is; vast majority of modern "Western" scholars do so. Otherwise they would make fools out of themselves, just as you do out of yourself.
What documentary is this interesting clip taken from?
Anyone have a link? Please post-thanks
Here are the variants in the Sana palimpsest th-cam.com/video/XyfML3DIAwY/w-d-xo.html
Good point. The burden of proof is on those who make claims. However, in science there are many MORE unanswered questions on changing and incomplete "theories" that require the burden of proof as well yet you accept them WITHOUT the proof. "Our scientific models..." God isn't necessary to exhibit the natural laws through which life functions. We identify him as the initiator to answer the questions, where, why and how did it all start? To follow God does not mean you ignore science.
The first question to ask is how credible is the person who wrote sana manuscript. Just because it’s old it doesn’t mean it’s authentic.
The verses came down as per circumstance to prophet Muhammad. So chapters can different. It’s not the whole Quran isn’t it.
Yamen is a Long way from Medina. The place where prophet was. Isn’t it possible the person who wrote this was hearing the verses from people who were coming from Medina and corrected any mistakes he had previously written down.
Humans make mistakes. They may omit words or change to tell the jist of the revelation. Hence the change in words and the corrections.
Uthman standardised the Quran because of these differences. To preserve it in time. And it was written and verified by people who were taught Quran by prophet muhammad himself. Also the person who wrote the first standardised copy of Quran was there when prophet recited the Quran from TOP to bottom during the last year of his life in Ramadan.
The Quran we have is undoubtedly the same Quran.
@sunnimanhaj
"baggage of presumptions"
Your presumptions are baggage. Mine are based on the "best methods" that lead to demonstrable, operative results.
It was hidden on a roof for 1400 years , why ? Do you smell the ill intention and agenda there . Why would anyone hide if something was perfect ? Or had good intention ? Those were from trouble makers so if we really use our brains those were not to be considered as valid since the Caliph has ordered to be burnt ( not put in wells and lakes as usually done just to avoid mischeif makers posses it to mischeiviously re write it ) According to carbon dating they said the leather material was the oldest even probably before 610 AD but it was written first and has been washed and written again ( probably thrown into a well defying the order of caliph to burn and Mischeif makers found it !) . We know muslims used to discard the worn out Quran by putting in a well or lakes. But Caliph Uthman strictly insisted and ordered to burn all other manuscripts of different dialects because there were hypocrites in the ummah who could excerbrate and make issues from the 7 dialects ( not Qiraat or recitations ) since the Quraishi dialect was already made in 633 AD by Caliph Abubakr which was used to Affirm Uthmans copy and was returned back to Hafsa ( some say this copy from Hafsa was the so called Hafs as if its now 95% of the world , so was not burned as it was the same of Caliph Uthman's newly affirmed Copy of hafs ( about 650 AD) and warsh reading might have sprouted from the concealed copy of Ibn Masud who did not give up his copy to be burned )
As Sanaa palimsets written material was surely the oldest before Caliph Uthmans period also proves they were not worth keeping but to be discarded as per the godly order of Caliph Uthman and we should be better not calling it as a valid Quran because of either they was a foul play there or its was in a different dialect ( one of the 7 which none knows it because all of them except the Quraishi dialect or Hafs of Hafsa was burnt )
Though Ibn Masud did not give up his copy which could have given raise to the warsh dialect of deep Africas but only 5 % and 95 % is the hafs which is used by all including all Imaams of Haram of Kaaba . Qirat or recitations is a different matter as hadith. So Allah guarded Quran through the ease of Memorization unparallel to any other book in the world since any race or nationality ought to read Quran only in Arabic in our salah and also protected Quran from any confusions. Though apologists present the same Quran with various book covers and different styles of vowelling it ( Egypts, Sudans , Saudi Pakistan are not same ) but are pronounced and read the same way except the warsh which is only 5% used in Africa in which few words like Maaliki ( Hafs ) is pronounced as Maliki ( warsh ) in the first sura. There are some videos who are trying to display reading 7 dialects but if you think when all dialects were burnt except the Quraishi hafs and a bit of warsh were the only to be saved , these are utter fakes though they might appear in attire of scholars and we better waste no time with UNSURE readings when the Sure Hafsa reading of Hafs is living with us for ever.
@AlSagid89 Yes, it has as showed by evidence. Words with up to 30 different meanings? That is not how to communicate if you want to preserve your message intact. And even if it hasn't changed so what? There are text far older than Qur'an that haven't changed.
Well, I'm pretty sure he can read arabic, the german guy that is. He was a lecturer of arabic. ;)
@sunnimanhaj
"abandoned by the vast majority of academia"
This is claim of yours is non-factual.
"Christian propaganda of Luxemberg"
I didnt mention Christianity or Luxember one single time. Its you who keeps bringing those terms in.
"stayed preserved"
Since it was codified. Not before that, as the internal evidence indicates. And thats the key point. And no amount of fallacies, equivocation, distraction will help you here.
@Wrath0fKhan You can never prove that it is impossible for the Muslims to have passed down the Qur'an completely from one generation to the next successively through memorisation. I have proven that this method is viable and is indeed historically attested.
@sunnimanhaj
"no simple"
Yes, it is. We "see" this over and over again. And you are missing the point again, because this is not about some general ideas, but rather about about a "copycat job."
@sipraomer
"please visit. its a fact"
Did so... The claimed position is NOT a fact (according to the source you are referencing).
@sipraomer no
vowelization did not take place in Uthman's time, but much later
The Quran, the most meaningless piece of literature that's ever existed.
You need to educate yourself before you start barking nonsense. God says in Quran that no other religion will be accepted by god except Islam. If you don’t believe in Islam then on the day of judgement, you won’t be allowed to enter paradise. Muslims are very lucky to be Muslims.
The oldest quranic texts are in the Sanaa files but not the one mentioned here. The oldest are carbondated by the Lyon, Kiel, Zurich and Oxford Universities between 390 and 550 AD, meaning before mohammed supposed to have lived. Therefore the quran is not eternal nor is it given to mohammed by the angel gibril.
@sunnimanhaj
"complete chain of transmission"
No serious historian can accept these claims based on available evidence (and or lack thereof).
"your assumptions are nothing but your own fairy tales"
What assumptions? Everything I said is retrievable in one way or another. You are just denying reality.
@maxtravells
4/4
"... Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed to be recited in this way." Allah" Apostle added, "The Quran has been revealed to be recited in several different ways, so recite of it that which is easier for you.""
The "gin" is out of the bottle! LOL
Btw, that "German" (i.e. Dr. Puin) is a distinguished retired professional Arabist, expert specialist on early Arabic script. We cant say this about most "natives", indeed.
@Wrath0fKhan lol we have them today. Millions of Muslims today have memorised the Qur'an from beginning to end and I know dozens personally at my university. Manuscripts of the Qur'an go back much closer to the time of their source compared to the New Testmanet manuscripts. The earliest surviving material of the NT is p52 which contains few words from four verses of John 18. That's dated to 125 to 150 CE. Most of the others manuscripts date more than 200 years after Jesus. Do you reject the NT?
@Wrath0fKhan No, it is only a likely explanation if one has the baggage of presumptions that you have. In order for you to have a valid point you need to first establish your presumptions which you haven't and you can't.
4/4
"...Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed to be recited in this way." Allah" Apostle added, "The Quran has been revealed to be recited in several different ways, so recite of it that which is easier for you.""
Seriously to consider; where do these allegedly reported inconsistencies come from? Was there something like a much richer background from which the Quran was later derived?
It's really Word of god several times it proved
@Audrey O' Callaghan ...yupp...
@Wrath0fKhan "What if the "revelation" is supposed to be exclusively relating to one meaning only?" Who told you that the wahy can have only singular meanings to the words therein? As usual rather than honestly assessing the texts you approach it with a priori presumptions.
wow, now Germans are going to tell the Arabs what the Quran really means!
cannot believe the amount of mischief that these guys are up to.
@Wrath0fKhan Yes, it does. Because you were questioning the ability to memorise by Muslims by saying that most Muslims are non-Arabic speakers which I have proven to be a false argument. Being unable to speak Arabic does not impede the ability of a person to memorise the Qur'an.