They might not be "music therapy" - but certainly they are very therapeutic to many people. The biggest thing my degrees and diplomas have taught me to date is that the more I learn the less I really know - and that I should examine my opinions carefully and frequently.
You people raving on about whether a person is "qualified" or not really gets me. I am nearly 80 years old an one thing I have observed about "qualified" people. How did you get your qualifications? Through other qualified people? How did they get their qualifications? What I am getting at is how did the first people get their qualifications if there was no qualified peole before them? In other words qualifications was invented by people trying to prevent other people getting in on the act. Now! Prove me wrong.
Thank you for common sense. I resonate with all you say. I hate when I have heard the term professional over the years. They have an over inflated ego and think they know it all. When in fact we never stop learning. I also hate it when people say they are passionate about something, usually this is said by a so called professional who is disingenuous at the very least. Not listening to this AH.
You can see it as exclusionary and elitist, but I imagine that when it's time to visit the doctor, or have your taxes done, or get your car repaired, or take a flight, that you will seek out the services of a professional and that you will want to know that the people you hire have credentials in their field and are not posing or acting as if they do. Yes? There are good reasons we, as a society, have created systems for learning and certification in specific fields - because it helps us all do the best we can do while protecting consumers from those who would take the easy way out and skip the process that makes them demonstrate that they have the skills and knowledge to do the job.
Blue Unicorn People get qualified by demonstrating competency. Why is that a bad thing? Should anyone be able to “get into the act” without showing competence?
I’m loving this conversation! Thank you so much. And I remember your VHS tape on drumming and we probably still have it somewhere. 😊 I’m someone who’s made a career with hand drums. We’ve had a store called The Rhythm Inlet since the mid-90s. I’ve been an artist in residence with drums and percussion from around the world as an “edu-tainer” for preschools thru universities. My husband and I have been teaching ethnic- based drum styles for decades, from djembe to middle eastern frame drum to samba batucada. I’ve developed my own rhythm and movement based programs for educational, recreational, and therapeutic settings. We’ve travelled to drum cultures around the world. And I am NOT a therapist! I’m grateful there are music therapists out there, and appreciate this distinction. HOWEVER, I am highly trained and have been blessed to have studied with the best, most of them the pioneers in their various rhythm fields, truly astounding people, many of them now gone. I’ve even offered workshops for what I do, to teachers and folks in the fields of education and wellness. Without my expert teachers, without all my training, I wouldn’t have been able to have such a profound impact in the lives of thousands of people. It’s my unique alchemy of what I’ve learned from my teachers, that has made all the difference in my world and the lives I’ve touched. Doing my thing, which is therapeutic, dare I say has even been enlightening for some, is not the same as therapy. I have friends and family who are therapists. And I’ve sought professionals for physical therapy or for emotional therapy in my life. There’s definitely a difference. What’s happened to my career is the flip side to this story. I moved to a region where the totally freeform, non-facilitated drum circles are hugely attended by hundreds, and are widely known. You can attend a public or private drum circle every day of the week here. Each has a different personality, a different flavor. And they serve a wonderful purpose in the community and I’m proud of them. As a result of now living where I do, my career has definitely been effected. My professional persona as a an ambassador and pied piper of facilitated rhythm programs for people of all ages, abilities, and challenges, sometimes even feeling like a magical fairy, took a hit due to the wilder style of drum circles. Schools saw no reason to hire me. It was the same with facilities catering to populations with specific physical, mental, emotional, or developmental challenges, or even any combination of these. They weren’t interested. They saw no distinction between what I do, and the drum circles that literally everyone here is familiar with. Those cost nothing, and can get kinda wild. The DCs here devalued the experiences I give, as a professional. Even if I was recommended thru word of mouth. Language arts, social studies, math, music, social skills, rhythm skills, mindfulness, individual creativity, personal empowerment, women’s rituals, hand drum techniques... You name it, it’s in one or more of my programs. And yes, perhaps those things can be found at some drum circles, too. I’d love to dig deeper into the topic of this difference as well. I know as a music therapist and drummer musician, it’s not the premise of this video. Don’t get me wrong, the spirit of the drum circle for both drummers and dancers is a fabulous outlet for a certain kind of healing, for those who’ve tapped into its benefits. And I think music has a special place in situations where actual therapy is needed. One more point I’d like to add in making this distinction between a drumming experience that can be a healing balm for the soul, and drumming in music therapy. Were there people in my classes and programs who were dealing with grief and loss, or anxiety or depression? Indeed. And there were others who were at risk youth or on the autistic spectrum, or adults dealing with the stress of divorce. What I offered them in my rhythm based programs was an opportunity for self-expression, a channel for their emotions and energies, a place where they felt safe, or not alone but connected to others. For some it was simply an empowering experience when they felt they had no musical ability. The list of human suffering, and wants and needs, are endless, and certainly I’ve had the privilege of witnessing a lot thru the drum. But did my work help them get to the root causes of their addictions? Did it help tap into and heal the deepest grief of the heart? Did it help them gain clarity on the repetitive patterns and problems in their lives, and how to shift them? Perhaps at times it touched on one or any of those things. But it was not the kind of process that a therapist is best skilled to navigate with a client, or a group of clients, and handle. I for one appreciate this distinction. And the opening of a conversation that triggers people, doesn’t scare me. Let’s continue the dialogue. 😊🙏🎶💃🏼🧚🏼♀️
There are many benefits to active music making and anyone may facilitate various experiences for others. That is a wonderful thing to do - and valuable. Music Therapy contains various types of experiences, but not exclusively. It’s HOW those experiences are designed, delivered, and leveraged for the clients (as well as the general therapeutic relationship) that makes Music Therapy interventions unique.
I agree with your definitions. TY. I am a member of my Community Drum Circle and it is RECREATION just like you said. What you get out of it ultimately is fun, fun, fun. My people are mostly baby boomers reliving the 80's. A lot like going dancing at the local disco where you know everyone and it's about fun. Now, we are older and wiser and sober, and we are a part of the music. We get together on Sunday's and celebrate Sunday, like a family. Our chosen family. We make great music together and celebrate our time together.
That's awesome, Robin. It's not a competition between "drum circles" and music therapy. One is a professional service with specific obligations, goals, and ethics, and one is an activity for fun - and may be therapeutic for people. No problem with either - just not the same thing.
Kim Balekomoso It is not correct to label drum circles as music therapy. If you believe it is, please explain how and share your sources where both are defined.
@@donbaird3826 I'm originally from the Lower East Side of NYC. Every Saturday afternoon on my street Puerto Rican and Cuban percussionists used to gather to play...It was a beautiful thing, not just for those taking part, but for passers by too. It inspired dancing in the streets.... If any of these losers turned to ruin the groove they'd be shot. I mean that quite literally. I'm all for people making music in public spaces, but at least learn where the first beat of the bar is.
His points are valid in terms of professional definition and the history of the use of terms. Not every circle of drummers is a drum circle nor is the intent the same each time. I do, however, feel that the drum circle CAN be used as therapy, but that requires a different approach. The true purpose of a traditional drum circle is really to connect with one another and commune in a language developed long ago (yes, drumming is a communication method). This is why people that participate zone out and just enjoy the moment. It's ancestral for most of us. Therapy, however, has a scientific approach meant to aid someone mentally and emotionally. The intent isn't for someone to zone out, but hone IN on what it is they're trying to solve thru the use of music as a method.
DRO NOYB We certainly use group drumming of all types in music therapy. The point I make in the video, is that it’s not accurate to label any of those methods as a drum circle. What is accurate, is to use the term “group drumming” or simply “drumming” because that allows for a variety of modifications that are specific to music therapy practice. Trying to cram another established term, such as “drum circle” into music therapy requires us to first “undo” the meaning of that term and then “re-build” the experience as music therapy. What is the point of that? It seems to cause a lot of confusion, which is what this talk is aimed at clearing up. Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
Seems like most of the people arguing about this don't really understand the difference between a professional and non professional (which is a little concerning! I hope they aren't getting taken advantage of by quacks! ). If you have a problem or want to learn something you go to a professional. If you want to chill and have a good time, you go to a nonprofessional. If you want to learn to dance ballet, you go to a dance teacher (a professional, a master). If you want to just dance and have fun you go to a club (non professional setting). If you want to learn a traditional martial art, you find a master to teach you (a professional). If you want to just wave your arms around for exercise...you just go do that without being taught (nonprofessional setting). If you are having mental issues and need to talk to someone about it you would go to a therapist (a professional that knows what they are doing). If you want to just vent and relieve stress you go to your best friend (someone who may or may not actually help you feel better). If you want to help achieve a goal using music, you do music therapy (a professional setting). If you want to chill out and feel good with music, you go to a drum circle (non professional setting). This seems very obvious and just general commonsense.
Thanks for putting this out there. I feel like this kinda like how many non drummers think every hand drum is a "bongo". However I do think that a drum circle can be, and is, therapy for many people. I understand that it isn't therapy in the technical sense but people definitely still get therapeutic benefits from the shared vibrations and rhythms. I think people can have life changing experiences during a drum circle experience. I certainly did in my first drum circle with Jim Donovan and it led me on my own path to facilitating. Thanks for your videos man they are really great!!
Sorry, but your statement is not backed up by facts or standards of professional practice. Medical patients do not decide who a doctor is based on their perceptions. While it's true that a "service" can be performed by anyone, training and credentialed or not, there are standards and qualifications that need to be met to use specific terms, such as physical therapy, speech therapy, talk therapy, etc. It's not simply up to a consumer to decide which terms are valid for individuals or what constitutes a profession.
Kalani, as someone who is a member of several large long-standing community drum circles and who has benefitted from your World Drum Club tutorials, I appreciate this video and the distinctions you make. Why people become triggered and are not listening to you clearly state that yes, community DC & facilitated DC can be therapeutic they are not CLINICAL music theraphy is puzzling. People have become so concerned about "gate-keeping" & yet they fail to realize they are engaging in it themselves. I think you went into much detail in the video & comments about the circumstances & when & why we would want to be assured our therapist (professional) is credentialed. Its a no brainer. People seem to have taken your effort to distinquish between community DC and true clinical music therapy as a personal attack. Its nothing of the sort. Thank you for the time & effort you put forth in your video content on this platform. To others, if you are reading this & you are part of a community drum circle you know we dont do people like that. There is no room for ego. Kalaini is a professional musician and if you could simply look at this vid as him speaking to his peers....other music therapist....you would hear this an entirely different way. Regardless, him making this video does not diminish the good you gain in DC. However, your overly critical, judgrmental attitude toward another human being does diminish all that good energy you built up immersed in the rythmns. You might refer to all the free tutorials Kalaini offers here (that others use their credentials & ego to charge you for learning).Realise he offers valueable content that assists people in enjoying community DC for free. Its all good with drumming people, don't waste the good vibes on unnecessary nonsense & judgement.
Thank you for seeing me and my intentions-and trying to help put my talk into perspective for others. I agree with your comments. It’s ironic that it’s sometimes the folks who aspire to create community and inclusion who have the most trouble making room for opinions and perspectives with which they disagree - or that they can’t imagine. There’s room for everyone in the circle!
All I can say about it personally is it just Health going to drum circle and beating the drums and silencing the mine and going with Finn is there it is therapy
This was quite useful I'm an arts music activist run groups. Sometimes people want to call me a "therapist" I'm not I respect the work of dedicated therapists too much. Thanks Kalani
I don’t think anyone would dispute that drum circles drum lines, are therapeutic in nature. But if you need to commercialize music and transpose it into a clinical way then you have to show the facilitator as an accredited therapist in compliance with the the respective laws of the place where you reside.. We don’t do drum circles we do ensembles. Let’s not get into semantics.
The bottom line is respecting the definitions that are used to describe various types of experiences and services. This discussion could be about the different between a therapeutic massage and massage used in physical therapy. Yes, they may appear similar from the outside, but there are vast differences in how the process is used, under what relationships, within what setting, and under what professional ethics and standards. They are actually very different and should probably not be conflated.
Kalani Das i agree with you. I am the founder of Drumbelievables Ireland, currently the country’s largest drum ensemble. Our community gathers are refereed to as Recreational Drumming. Our Prison and addiction work is classed as therapeutic drumming. I keep saying to people were not drum circles. Because Drum Circles tend to be non instructional, where as a recreational drum gathering is more disciplined and focused with set Pattern over Pulse sequences. Etc. Lots of people contact me asking for drum circles but what we do is far removed from the shamanic spiritual drum circle, but none the less spiritual in every essence therapeutic at the same time,.
I have been a behavioral health clinician for many years. Hopefully you don't mean for this to be the case, but your comments seem very elitist. You are obviously concerned that people don't confuse drum circles for actual therapy, but in all actuality, isn't it more important that people are receiving the help they need no matter what it is called. My hope is that as therapists we are able to meet people where they are without concern for the "stigma" it causes our profession. Many of us, myself included, at times need to get over our own self-importance and with humility serve our clients rather than being concerned about reputation and splitting hairs about what to call a given technique. Finally, you said therapy isn't necessarily fun. I agree with that, but when it can be, shouldn't it be? Over the years, I have learned that laughter is often indeed the best medicine!
A "drum circle" can be used as a therapeutic, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a music therapist who only facilitates drum circles. A music therapy session can look like anything. I have sessions in which no music is played whatsoever, and ones that look identical to a drum circle.
Eh... Drum circle is a term people recognize. You can introduce it to clients with that verbiage and then explain how this is different and facilitate therapeutic goals. It just depends on the goals of the client and the skills of the therapist.
I'm into these topics but this vid totally confused me at first. I guess if you just step outside U.S., drum circle might suddenly be back to just a circle of drums ;) no therapists and no hippies involved actually.
You could, but why introduce and use a term that you need to then walk back? The term “drum circle” has a specific meaning, popular or not, and that meaning is not what happens as music therapy. The two are completely different in terms of the relationships between participants, the goals, and the methods used. Makes more sense to use a different term when engaging group drumming in music therapy.
We get it. You're trained. You are legitimate. You have value, and you earn your money. Drumming benefits physical, mental, and spiritual healing. It boosts the immune system, reduces tension, anxiety, and stress. It can help manage chronic pain, etc. I am sure these benefits have been happening for millennia. Not just after we had the profession of "music therapist." The only person that thinks "drum circle," has stigma, is you. I get what you are saying, but it just sounds more desperate. Therapeutic things can still happen in a drum circle. I get it. You're a professional. A super annoying one. But, a professional.
ShakeMyWay This is how people communicate when their identity is hidden, without respect for others or the topic. Everyone - Please don’t follow this example. If you have something constructive to add, feel welcome. Let’s not get into personal attacks.
@@KalaniMusic The only one disrespecting others is you. His comments are factually accurate. More constructive to the topic than your barely disguised advertisement.
Omg this is the epitomy of an over_exacting left brained opinion. Anything that is symbiotic is therapeutic....including random dancing and group drumming. Wow.
DAVID MORTON Something that is therapeutic is not the same as providing therapy. Music Therapy is not defined by music that someone finds therapeutic, which seems to be your argument. It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s about the definition of music therapy.
This video has no purpose. What does any of this matter? People participating in a drum circle are certainly not claiming to be practising music therapy. Basically this video exists for the purpose of wanting to post a video. Really nonsensical...
I do like this channel and will admit that i never really heard about musical therapy it does sound interesting but i want to try and maybe help you understand a drum circle from one who played at some big ones not like some pro but just to show up and go through the chops i only played for free and never really trained for it but sorta just landed there and my main motivation was always only to play and nothing else i never cared for the politics of who is better but just to hear the sound of people playing music and trying to keep up haha it should only be about music i did not know it at the time but at my grade school some kids from another school from another state came and this one kid had a drum set and it blew my mind that he was younger than me and playing at a level i could not comprehend i came into my own later on but that kid sparked my interest if i cant find what im looking for at a "drum circle" i will go out into the woods and make a tiny circle for my own musical therapy session where there are no sounds but nature and music and birds
Well said! So funny how defensive so many of these comments are! He's not saying there's no therapeutic value to drum circles, he's merely explaining how these informal gatherings are not an example of "music therapy". And he's bang on...
Drum circles are the oldest form of music and tribal connection. And here we are, many millennia later, arguing about academically correct terminology. I'm sure what you're saying in this video is correct, but it is painfully obvious that something was lost on the way.
Drum circles are the oldest form of music? The term didn't appear until the 1960's. The first music was through vocalizing. If you have it, please post sources.
@@KalaniMusic We can invent and assign words as we please, but striking things in a rythmic fashion is older than written language itself. We can still look at african tribes today as evidence. Now, I understand you are using the word "drum circle" in an extremely narrow sense, but I feel that's missing the primal element of this ancient tradition.
I've seen a lot of comments about how engaging in music is therapeutic. And music experiences can certainly have therapuetic benefits. You may be able to express yourself, relax, get energized and have a variety of experiences in a drum circle, or just listening to the radio, or singing a song. But being a Music Therapist requires specific training and certification, much like a counselor, speech therapist, physical therapist, art therapist, massage therapist, etc. You may vent to your friend about a your feelings and feel better afterwards, which is "therapeutic." That doesn't make your friend a psychologist. While they may have listened and said comforting words, an actual therapist knows how to use listening and language skills to treat people, helping them to overcome depression, anxiety, mental health diagnoses, etc. In music therapy, a music therapist is required to use musical and clinical skills to treat symptoms and therapeutic goals. They actually design and facilitate therapeutic music interventions and experiences (such as drumming, singing, improvisation) in evidenced-based, goal oriented ways order to help patients and clients meet therapeutic objectives and goals. We use it to help reduce restlessness in hospice patients. We use it to help children with autism communicate. We use it to help cancer patients stay calm during medical procedures. We use it to help adults with PTSD to express emotions in a nonverbal way. There are so many researched and evidenced-based examples. Thus, while drum circles can be "therapeutic" based on your personal perceptions, it is spreads confusion and does a disservice to an entire field of trained professionals and music therapy recipients to call it "music therapy" or use that term interchangeably with things that are not music therapy.
Jillian Iurlano Very well said. I hope your comment will help other viewers understand the message of this video. It’s not about valuing one type of experience over the other - only to know the difference between them.
@@yoya4766 Most people, who have a loved one in treatment, will want the most experienced, qualified, and ethical therapists working for them. If you don’t care, that’s your choice, but many do - and I would argue that they deserve the highest quality care available.
Thank you for the question. It’s a common one. Music Therapy is a profession, so the people who provided it are Board Certified Music Therapists, similar to how the people who provide Talk Therapy are MFTs (or similar.) As far as “using techniques” : There are things you could potentially learn from music therapy, just like any profession. How you implement them, will depend on your own training, capacity, and application. Whatever you end up doing, would be within the scope of practice of your profession. Hope that makes sense.
@@KalaniMusic thank you for responding so quickly. I am a student (mft) that believes in a holistic approach and aim at intergrating some theories and some complementary techniques on an intervention level. That is why I was asking. The research shows that although talk therapy helps with "joining" there are other ways to help clients that go deeper into the brain and I find that interesting. It is hard to navigate some of these prespectives at the school of medicine. Very grateful for finding you channel.
@@dana-elainemiddleton9257 I have a friend who is an MFT and an amazing musician. I believe he sometimes uses music in his practice, but I don’t know how. Some people choose to do both degrees: MFT and MT. I think that is a great combination. If I had the time, I would, but that ship has sailed and I have enough on my plate. You can always explore music therapy by asking an MT if you could job-shadow them, or by partnering with an MT-BC. Keep asking around and reach out locally.
There can be, and often is, overlap between various helping professions. Music Therapy interventions can address some speech, physical, and cognitive goals (through similar methods) and Recreational Therapists sometimes use musical experiences in their work, although they use it as Recreational Therapists, since that is their training. If a CTRS was designing and delivering music interventions all the time, they might be beyond their scope of practice and/or could consider switching to music therapy by doing the required work and becoming a Board-Certified Music Therapist.
My uncle used to make us do the drum circle naked..then he he would spank our bottoms and say this polyrhythm on the left cheek counters the right cheek and than he would film it to transcribe his solo every time...but then he took my gf to show her a private lesson and she broke up with me
I think Kalani would acknowledge that drumming may be described as therapeutic by the individuals participating in drum circles. As a drum circle facilitator, who also happens to be a therapist, though not in music, I would never say that what I do is Music Therapy when facilitating a drum circle. Much the same way that I would never say that I'm doing Physiotherapy when helping a friend with a sports-related injury, because I'm not a physiotherapist. He is simply distinguishing between Music Therapy as a profession, which drum circles are not, unless they are facilitated by a certified and registered Music Therapist, and the sense that drumming, whether in a circle or elsewhere can feel quite "therapeutic" (in a colloquial sense). I do not get the impression that he is minimizing the value or importance of drum circles; he is simply offering an explanation of the difference between the profession of Music Therapy and that of a Drum Circle Facilitator. What I find hard to understand is this: the drum circles that I facilitate and attend are populated by wonderful, inclusive, accepting people. Considering the amount of negative, aggressive, attacking comments Kalani has received for simply offering a clarification on an over - and incorrectly - used term, I cannot help but wonder at the true nature of the commenters. Okay, have at me for defending Kalani's post.
HI Allen - I think you did a great job evaluating my comments. Nothing against drum circles at all. They just are not part of music therapy, nor are they music therapy by themselves - Just something different that shouldn't be conflated. As for negative comments: I haven't read most of them, but it's odd that so many who seem to be for drum circles are often very aggressive and inflexible when it comes to allowing for different viewpoints.
You can study drum circle all you want, be a certified music therapist all you want. You hippies can do that stuff all day. The reality is we Africans gave it to you or rather you took it. You are welcome Kalani. We have been healing people with sound for eons before your mother's mother thought of conceiving you. Keep taking our stuff and claiming it yours or it originates from the 60s and psychadelic movement. We know how it got into America.
olu olu There’s no need to make the conversation personal and aggressive towards any individual or group. Our goal is to help each other through the power of music. Everyone contributes something, and for that, we can be grateful.
Anne Daugherty What’s wrong or offensive about seeking to clarify meaning? Lots of things help us feel better, but that is not what this video is about. If you have a question, I would be happy to reply.
TW Chisolm Many activities can be therapeutic, which is another way of saying it helps you feel better. Therapy, as a healthcare service, is a bit of a different process that involves a therapist as a guide.
I would argue that drum circles ran by a facilitator can have as much a place in a person's recovery as clinical groups ran by a musical therapist. Art groups can have a huge place in the same regard, no matter the facilitators background, as long as they are helpf. A spiritual counselor can have as much use as a psychologist, as can a group of peers discussing together with a facilitator, a dietician can be as helpf as a psychiatrist. A gym instructor and a yoga instructor, tai chi. Whatever. Recovery is individual and the participant should find what's best for them. Us involved in mental health should work along side each other, holistic and combined as a community, refer to each other and encourage all forms as is useful to the individual rather than focusing on our individual training.
Jay Taylor Yes - There are many different services provided by all kinds of professionals and paraprofessionals that can all be beneficial. It’s important to know which service is appropriate for what circumstances and make informed choices when providing or prescribing services to people who are receiving any type of care, especially healthcare. While many services are beneficial, they are not interchangeable.
The only difference between a qualified professional and an enthusiastic amateur is one prostitutes their services by charging a fee, while the other offers their services fee of charge for the sheer pleasure and enjoyment of helping other people.
Ugh...why drone on about this...it is still a matter of interpretation. Your perception/opinion is yours. Why, do you need to make this an issue. I would take issue with your explanations...music has been around way before all of this therapy stuff. Drumming can be relaxing...whether in a group/circle/jam or by oneself. Many find it therapeutic...so your putting a Professional stamp...still just your opinion..Michael Bruno.
Why so aggressive? Should we all call having a casual conversation with a friend, where we feel that it's been therapeutic, Talk Therapy? That seems to be your argument. You may not think it's worth discussing, but there are a lot of people mistakenly labeling drum circles as music therapy and music therapy as drum circles. They both have value - that's not the point. Hope that makes sense.
Solomon Pilot What do you disagree with? We can do lots of things that release our stress, but it doesn’t mean those things are defined as therapy. If that were the case, talking a walk could be called physical therapy.
I think drum circles can provide benefits that one on one single instrument music therapy sessions can’t. Drum circles make you feel a sense of connectedness. It’s one of the few ways music therapists can use call and response, a very useful tool that engages patients. Getting lost in a rhythm of your own can feel very uplifting and making and adding to a beat almost always makes patients more energetic and positive. To say drum circles have absolutely nothing to do with music therapy is pretty wack my man...
Did I claim that drum circle "have nothing to do" with music therapy? No. Misrepresenting other people's words or intentions is not a good way to have a meaningful discussion. If you would like to know what I think you're welcome to ask a question, but please don't misrepresent my words, as I don't misrepresent yours.
@@Qwerty-fg1ou Sure. Are you familiar with the many techniques and strategies that are well-documented in music therapy practice? If not, you might be making judgments based on very little information and experience. As someone who has been facilitating group drumming experiences for over 35 years, at the community level, and working in music therapy for around 15 years, I speak from experience. No one is comparing the “value” of DCs vs. MT. What this talk is about, is understanding the difference between a drum circle and drumming in music therapy. Although some aspects may look similar from the outside, they are fundamentally different, mainly due to the relationships between participants and therapist, the ways in which specific techniques are used and why, and the outcomes and priorities of both the therapist and clients. To conflate the two is a mistake, in my opinion - and the reason this video exists, is because some people have done that. This talk is a response to those claims and misinformation. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the video Kalini! Are you familiar with Remo's HealthRHYTHMS Training? Would you consider that to fall under Music Therapy, or drumming for fun?
Health Rhythms is a procedure-based wellness program. It's not music therapy, although you could consider it a therapeutic music program, depending on the application. Music Therapy requires a music therapist. It doesn't matter if the person is using a particular program model or their own system. A training program or model is not music therapy any more than learning a specific medical procedure makes someone into a doctor. Hope that makes sense. Thank you for your question.
“People in a circle playing drums that is not a drum circle a drum circle means a certain type of experience”. Later goes on to say ... “a drum circle play music together everyone plays in the contribute to the community based music experience and they get value” and have fun hopefully... 😂 I’m done guys I don’t think he has ever been to a drum circle he said drum circle facilitator but said before.. that it isn’t led by anyone. I’m just confounded on the hypocrisy
ikr, he slams his fist repeatedly on his desk and exclaims "god dammit!, i lost another client to a drum circle! when will these fucks realize that i took classes. IM IMPORTANT!!!".
Solomon Pilot Sounds like you may have a misunderstanding of the definition and common use of the term “drum circle.” How can they be from Ethiopia when the term originated in the US? Maybe you are talking about group drumming of some kind.
I think your values are inaccurate and hurtful. How can you say someone's therapy is invalid. This is why alot of people don't do therapy because you take what little courage they have to do therapy away by stating their venular is wrong. Your have so many contradictions on this.ay I suggest a learning more before judging based in your degree. More experience not just book learning.
Thank you for your comments, even with the misrepresentations of my statements. There are no personal attacks in my comments, which are based on decades of experience, both in recreational music (drum circles among them) as well as loads of experience in music therapy. Not sure why you think I was saying someone's therapy is invalid. I never said, nor implied it.
second comment in the row (cheers!), but just noticed that this was published just one day before the vid about music games that got me here ( th-cam.com/video/jtbL0vLj2_0/w-d-xo.html ). Coincidence or not.
They might not be "music therapy" - but certainly they are very therapeutic to many people. The biggest thing my degrees and diplomas have taught me to date is that the more I learn the less I really know - and that I should examine my opinions carefully and frequently.
Absolutely. Music and Art making can be therapeutic. Music Therapy is a professional service and more than an effect of music.
Well said. Thanks.
You people raving on about whether a person is "qualified" or not really gets me. I am nearly 80 years old an one thing I have observed about "qualified" people. How did you get your qualifications? Through other qualified people? How did they get their qualifications? What I am getting at is how did the first people get their qualifications if there was no qualified peole before them? In other words qualifications was invented by people trying to prevent other people getting in on the act. Now! Prove me wrong.
Thank you for common sense. I resonate with all you say. I hate when I have heard the term professional over the years. They have an over inflated ego and think they know it all. When in fact we never stop learning. I also hate it when people say they are passionate about something, usually this is said by a so called professional who is disingenuous at the very least. Not listening to this AH.
You can see it as exclusionary and elitist, but I imagine that when it's time to visit the doctor, or have your taxes done, or get your car repaired, or take a flight, that you will seek out the services of a professional and that you will want to know that the people you hire have credentials in their field and are not posing or acting as if they do. Yes? There are good reasons we, as a society, have created systems for learning and certification in specific fields - because it helps us all do the best we can do while protecting consumers from those who would take the easy way out and skip the process that makes them demonstrate that they have the skills and knowledge to do the job.
Blue Unicorn People get qualified by demonstrating competency. Why is that a bad thing? Should anyone be able to “get into the act” without showing competence?
I totally agree with you. This video is promoting his ''credentials'' and protecting his self interest.
Bang on young sir!!
I’m loving this conversation! Thank you so much. And I remember your VHS tape on drumming and we probably still have it somewhere. 😊
I’m someone who’s made a career with hand drums. We’ve had a store called The Rhythm Inlet since the mid-90s. I’ve been an artist in residence with drums and percussion from around the world as an “edu-tainer” for preschools thru universities. My husband and I have been teaching ethnic- based drum styles for decades, from djembe to middle eastern frame drum to samba batucada. I’ve developed my own rhythm and movement based programs for educational, recreational, and therapeutic settings. We’ve travelled to drum cultures around the world.
And I am NOT a therapist!
I’m grateful there are music therapists out there, and appreciate this distinction.
HOWEVER, I am highly trained and have been blessed to have studied with the best, most of them the pioneers in their various rhythm fields, truly astounding people, many of them now gone. I’ve even offered workshops for what I do, to teachers and folks in the fields of education and wellness.
Without my expert teachers, without all my training, I wouldn’t have been able to have such a profound impact in the lives of thousands of people. It’s my unique alchemy of what I’ve learned from my teachers, that has made all the difference in my world and the lives I’ve touched. Doing my thing, which is therapeutic, dare I say has even been enlightening for some, is not the same as therapy. I have friends and family who are therapists. And I’ve sought professionals for physical therapy or for emotional therapy in my life. There’s definitely a difference.
What’s happened to my career is the flip side to this story. I moved to a region where the totally freeform, non-facilitated drum circles are hugely attended by hundreds, and are widely known. You can attend a public or private drum circle every day of the week here. Each has a different personality, a different flavor. And they serve a wonderful purpose in the community and I’m proud of them.
As a result of now living where I do, my career has definitely been effected. My professional persona as a an ambassador and pied piper of facilitated rhythm programs for people of all ages, abilities, and challenges, sometimes even feeling like a magical fairy, took a hit due to the wilder style of drum circles.
Schools saw no reason to hire me. It was the same with facilities catering to populations with specific physical, mental, emotional, or developmental challenges, or even any combination of these.
They weren’t interested. They saw no distinction between what I do, and the drum circles that literally everyone here is familiar with. Those cost nothing, and can get kinda wild. The DCs here devalued the experiences I give, as a professional. Even if I was recommended thru word of mouth.
Language arts, social studies, math, music, social skills, rhythm skills, mindfulness, individual creativity, personal empowerment, women’s rituals, hand drum techniques... You name it, it’s in one or more of my programs. And yes, perhaps those things can be found at some drum circles, too.
I’d love to dig deeper into the topic of this difference as well. I know as a music therapist and drummer musician, it’s not the premise of this video.
Don’t get me wrong, the spirit of the drum circle for both drummers and dancers is a fabulous outlet for a certain kind of healing, for those who’ve tapped into its benefits. And I think music has a special place in situations where actual therapy is needed.
One more point I’d like to add in making this distinction between a drumming experience that can be a healing balm for the soul, and drumming in music therapy.
Were there people in my classes and programs who were dealing with grief and loss, or anxiety or depression? Indeed. And there were others who were at risk youth or on the autistic spectrum, or adults dealing with the stress of divorce.
What I offered them in my rhythm based programs was an opportunity for self-expression, a channel for their emotions and energies, a place where they felt safe, or not alone but connected to others. For some it was simply an empowering experience when they felt they had no musical ability.
The list of human suffering, and wants and needs, are endless, and certainly I’ve had the privilege of witnessing a lot thru the drum.
But did my work help them get to the root causes of their addictions? Did it help tap into and heal the deepest grief of the heart? Did it help them gain clarity on the repetitive patterns and problems in their lives, and how to shift them?
Perhaps at times it touched on one or any of those things. But it was not the kind of process that a therapist is best skilled to navigate with a client, or a group of clients, and handle.
I for one appreciate this distinction. And the opening of a conversation that triggers people, doesn’t scare me. Let’s continue the dialogue. 😊🙏🎶💃🏼🧚🏼♀️
That's awesome.
There are many benefits to active music making and anyone may facilitate various experiences for others. That is a wonderful thing to do - and valuable.
Music Therapy contains various types of experiences, but not exclusively. It’s HOW those experiences are designed, delivered, and leveraged for the clients (as well as the general therapeutic relationship) that makes Music Therapy interventions unique.
I agree with your definitions. TY. I am a member of my Community Drum Circle and it is RECREATION just like you said. What you get out of it ultimately is fun, fun, fun. My people are mostly baby boomers reliving the 80's. A lot like going dancing at the local disco where you know everyone and it's about fun. Now, we are older and wiser and sober, and we are a part of the music. We get together on Sunday's and celebrate Sunday, like a family. Our chosen family. We make great music together and celebrate our time together.
That's awesome, Robin. It's not a competition between "drum circles" and music therapy. One is a professional service with specific obligations, goals, and ethics, and one is an activity for fun - and may be therapeutic for people. No problem with either - just not the same thing.
A drum circle is music and sound therapy as well as simple fun
Drum circles can be fun. You're right about that.
Kim Balekomoso It is not correct to label drum circles as music therapy. If you believe it is, please explain how and share your sources where both are defined.
For many musicians listening to a bunch of enthusiastic amateurs make arrhythmic random noises is tortuous.
@@zivkovicableamusing ignorance 🤣
@@donbaird3826 I'm originally from the Lower East Side of NYC. Every Saturday afternoon on my street Puerto Rican and Cuban percussionists used to gather to play...It was a beautiful thing, not just for those taking part, but for passers by too. It inspired dancing in the streets.... If any of these losers turned to ruin the groove they'd be shot. I mean that quite literally.
I'm all for people making music in public spaces, but at least learn where the first beat of the bar is.
His points are valid in terms of professional definition and the history of the use of terms. Not every circle of drummers is a drum circle nor is the intent the same each time. I do, however, feel that the drum circle CAN be used as therapy, but that requires a different approach. The true purpose of a traditional drum circle is really to connect with one another and commune in a language developed long ago (yes, drumming is a communication method). This is why people that participate zone out and just enjoy the moment. It's ancestral for most of us. Therapy, however, has a scientific approach meant to aid someone mentally and emotionally. The intent isn't for someone to zone out, but hone IN on what it is they're trying to solve thru the use of music as a method.
DRO NOYB We certainly use group drumming of all types in music therapy. The point I make in the video, is that it’s not accurate to label any of those methods as a drum circle. What is accurate, is to use the term “group drumming” or simply “drumming” because that allows for a variety of modifications that are specific to music therapy practice. Trying to cram another established term, such as “drum circle” into music therapy requires us to first “undo” the meaning of that term and then “re-build” the experience as music therapy. What is the point of that? It seems to cause a lot of confusion, which is what this talk is aimed at clearing up. Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
Seems like most of the people arguing about this don't really understand the difference between a professional and non professional (which is a little concerning! I hope they aren't getting taken advantage of by quacks! ). If you have a problem or want to learn something you go to a professional. If you want to chill and have a good time, you go to a nonprofessional. If you want to learn to dance ballet, you go to a dance teacher (a professional, a master). If you want to just dance and have fun you go to a club (non professional setting). If you want to learn a traditional martial art, you find a master to teach you (a professional). If you want to just wave your arms around for exercise...you just go do that without being taught (nonprofessional setting). If you are having mental issues and need to talk to someone about it you would go to a therapist (a professional that knows what they are doing). If you want to just vent and relieve stress you go to your best friend (someone who may or may not actually help you feel better). If you want to help achieve a goal using music, you do music therapy (a professional setting). If you want to chill out and feel good with music, you go to a drum circle (non professional setting). This seems very obvious and just general commonsense.
Thanks for putting this out there. I feel like this kinda like how many non drummers think every hand drum is a "bongo". However I do think that a drum circle can be, and is, therapy for many people. I understand that it isn't therapy in the technical sense but people definitely still get therapeutic benefits from the shared vibrations and rhythms. I think people can have life changing experiences during a drum circle experience. I certainly did in my first drum circle with Jim Donovan and it led me on my own path to facilitating. Thanks for your videos man they are really great!!
Absolutely
Therapy can be offered by both trained and untrained persons. The recipient of the therapy is ultimately the definer of what is therapeutic.
Sorry, but your statement is not backed up by facts or standards of professional practice. Medical patients do not decide who a doctor is based on their perceptions. While it's true that a "service" can be performed by anyone, training and credentialed or not, there are standards and qualifications that need to be met to use specific terms, such as physical therapy, speech therapy, talk therapy, etc. It's not simply up to a consumer to decide which terms are valid for individuals or what constitutes a profession.
well said
@@KalaniMusic By the same token its not up to individuals to decide what constitutes a self styled profession.
Kalani, as someone who is a member of several large long-standing community drum circles and who has benefitted from your World Drum Club tutorials, I appreciate this video and the distinctions you make. Why people become triggered and are not listening to you clearly state that yes, community DC & facilitated DC can be therapeutic they are not CLINICAL music theraphy is puzzling. People have become so concerned about "gate-keeping" & yet they fail to realize they are engaging in it themselves. I think you went into much detail in the video & comments about the circumstances & when & why we would want to be assured our therapist (professional) is credentialed. Its a no brainer. People seem to have taken your effort to distinquish between community DC and true clinical music therapy as a personal attack. Its nothing of the sort. Thank you for the time & effort you put forth in your video content on this platform.
To others, if you are reading this & you are part of a community drum circle you know we dont do people like that. There is no room for ego. Kalaini is a professional musician and if you could simply look at this vid as him speaking to his peers....other music therapist....you would hear this an entirely different way. Regardless, him making this video does not diminish the good you gain in DC. However, your overly critical, judgrmental attitude toward another human being does diminish all that good energy you built up immersed in the rythmns. You might refer to all the free tutorials Kalaini offers here (that others use their credentials & ego to charge you for learning).Realise he offers valueable content that assists people in enjoying community DC for free. Its all good with drumming people, don't waste the good vibes on unnecessary nonsense & judgement.
Thank you for seeing me and my intentions-and trying to help put my talk into perspective for others. I agree with your comments.
It’s ironic that it’s sometimes the folks who aspire to create community and inclusion who have the most trouble making room for opinions and perspectives with which they disagree - or that they can’t imagine.
There’s room for everyone in the circle!
All I can say about it personally is it just Health going to drum circle and beating the drums and silencing the mine and going with Finn is there it is therapy
This was quite useful I'm an arts music activist run groups. Sometimes people want to call me a "therapist" I'm not I respect the work of dedicated therapists too much. Thanks Kalani
Thank you Michael. There's enough room for everyone to provide the services they provide, without causing confusion. I appreciate your comment.
I don’t think anyone would dispute that drum circles drum lines, are therapeutic in nature. But if you need to commercialize music and transpose it into a clinical way then you have to show the facilitator as an accredited therapist in compliance with the the respective laws of the place where you reside.. We don’t do drum circles we do ensembles. Let’s not get into semantics.
The bottom line is respecting the definitions that are used to describe various types of experiences and services. This discussion could be about the different between a therapeutic massage and massage used in physical therapy. Yes, they may appear similar from the outside, but there are vast differences in how the process is used, under what relationships, within what setting, and under what professional ethics and standards. They are actually very different and should probably not be conflated.
Kalani Das i agree with you. I am the founder of Drumbelievables Ireland, currently the country’s largest drum ensemble. Our community gathers are refereed to as Recreational Drumming. Our Prison and addiction work is classed as therapeutic drumming. I keep saying to people were not drum circles. Because Drum Circles tend to be non instructional, where as a recreational drum gathering is more disciplined and focused with set Pattern over Pulse sequences. Etc. Lots of people contact me asking for drum circles but what we do is far removed from the shamanic spiritual drum circle, but none the less spiritual in every essence therapeutic at the same time,.
I have been a behavioral health clinician for many years. Hopefully you don't mean for this to be the case, but your comments seem very elitist. You are obviously concerned that people don't confuse drum circles for actual therapy, but in all actuality, isn't it more important that people are receiving the help they need no matter what it is called. My hope is that as therapists we are able to meet people where they are without concern for the "stigma" it causes our profession. Many of us, myself included, at times need to get over our own self-importance and with humility serve our clients rather than being concerned about reputation and splitting hairs about what to call a given technique. Finally, you said therapy isn't necessarily fun. I agree with that, but when it can be, shouldn't it be? Over the years, I have learned that laughter is often indeed the best medicine!
A "drum circle" can be used as a therapeutic, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a music therapist who only facilitates drum circles. A music therapy session can look like anything. I have sessions in which no music is played whatsoever, and ones that look identical to a drum circle.
Eh... Drum circle is a term people recognize. You can introduce it to clients with that verbiage and then explain how this is different and facilitate therapeutic goals. It just depends on the goals of the client and the skills of the therapist.
I'm into these topics but this vid totally confused me at first. I guess if you just step outside U.S., drum circle might suddenly be back to just a circle of drums ;) no therapists and no hippies involved actually.
You could, but why introduce and use a term that you need to then walk back? The term “drum circle” has a specific meaning, popular or not, and that meaning is not what happens as music therapy. The two are completely different in terms of the relationships between participants, the goals, and the methods used. Makes more sense to use a different term when engaging group drumming in music therapy.
We get it. You're trained. You are legitimate. You have value, and you earn your money. Drumming benefits physical, mental, and spiritual healing. It boosts the immune system, reduces tension, anxiety, and stress. It can help manage chronic pain, etc. I am sure these benefits have been happening for millennia. Not just after we had the profession of "music therapist." The only person that thinks "drum circle," has stigma, is you. I get what you are saying, but it just sounds more desperate. Therapeutic things can still happen in a drum circle. I get it. You're a professional. A super annoying one. But, a professional.
ShakeMyWay This is how people communicate when their identity is hidden, without respect for others or the topic. Everyone - Please don’t follow this example. If you have something constructive to add, feel welcome. Let’s not get into personal attacks.
@@KalaniMusic The only one disrespecting others is you. His comments are factually accurate. More constructive to the topic than your barely disguised advertisement.
Great explanation. Thanks, Kalani!
Kiki I ig b NBC hi t heyy
Thank you, Kalani!
Omg this is the epitomy of an over_exacting left brained opinion. Anything that is symbiotic is therapeutic....including random dancing and group drumming. Wow.
DAVID MORTON Something that is therapeutic is not the same as providing therapy. Music Therapy is not defined by music that someone finds therapeutic, which seems to be your argument. It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s about the definition of music therapy.
@@KalaniMusic And who defined it?
This video has no purpose. What does any of this matter? People participating in a drum circle are certainly not claiming to be practising music therapy. Basically this video exists for the purpose of wanting to post a video. Really nonsensical...
I do like this channel and will admit that i never really heard about musical therapy it does sound interesting but i want to try and maybe help you understand a drum circle from one who played at some big ones not like some pro but just to show up and go through the chops i only played for free and never really trained for it but sorta just landed there and my main motivation was always only to play and nothing else i never cared for the politics of who is better but just to hear the sound of people playing music and trying to keep up haha it should only be about music i did not know it at the time but at my grade school some kids from another school from another state came and this one kid had a drum set and it blew my mind that he was younger than me and playing at a level i could not comprehend i came into my own later on but that kid sparked my interest if i cant find what im looking for at a "drum circle" i will go out into the woods and make a tiny circle for my own musical therapy session where there are no sounds but nature and music and birds
Well said! So funny how defensive so many of these comments are! He's not saying there's no therapeutic value to drum circles, he's merely explaining how these informal gatherings are not an example of "music therapy". And he's bang on...
Thank you for "Getting it" Doug.
Drum circles are the oldest form of music and tribal connection. And here we are, many millennia later, arguing about academically correct terminology. I'm sure what you're saying in this video is correct, but it is painfully obvious that something was lost on the way.
Drum circles are the oldest form of music? The term didn't appear until the 1960's. The first music was through vocalizing. If you have it, please post sources.
@@KalaniMusic We can invent and assign words as we please, but striking things in a rythmic fashion is older than written language itself. We can still look at african tribes today as evidence. Now, I understand you are using the word "drum circle" in an extremely narrow sense, but I feel that's missing the primal element of this ancient tradition.
Who put Howie mandell in the microwave? LMAO
I've seen a lot of comments about how engaging in music is therapeutic. And music experiences can certainly have therapuetic benefits. You may be able to express yourself, relax, get energized and have a variety of experiences in a drum circle, or just listening to the radio, or singing a song. But being a Music Therapist requires specific training and certification, much like a counselor, speech therapist, physical therapist, art therapist, massage therapist, etc. You may vent to your friend about a your feelings and feel better afterwards, which is "therapeutic." That doesn't make your friend a psychologist. While they may have listened and said comforting words, an actual therapist knows how to use listening and language skills to treat people, helping them to overcome depression, anxiety, mental health diagnoses, etc.
In music therapy, a music therapist is required to use musical and clinical skills to treat symptoms and therapeutic goals. They actually design and facilitate therapeutic music interventions and experiences (such as drumming, singing, improvisation) in evidenced-based, goal oriented ways order to help patients and clients meet therapeutic objectives and goals. We use it to help reduce restlessness in hospice patients. We use it to help children with autism communicate. We use it to help cancer patients stay calm during medical procedures. We use it to help adults with PTSD to express emotions in a nonverbal way. There are so many researched and evidenced-based examples. Thus, while drum circles can be "therapeutic" based on your personal perceptions, it is spreads confusion and does a disservice to an entire field of trained professionals and music therapy recipients to call it "music therapy" or use that term interchangeably with things that are not music therapy.
Jillian Iurlano Very well said. I hope your comment will help other viewers understand the message of this video. It’s not about valuing one type of experience over the other - only to know the difference between them.
It is therapy if it helps a person, full stop. Don't hijack a word to further a career.
@@yoya4766 Most people, who have a loved one in treatment, will want the most experienced, qualified, and ethical therapists working for them. If you don’t care, that’s your choice, but many do - and I would argue that they deserve the highest quality care available.
@@KalaniMusic If your so highly qualified why the difficulty comprehending my very simple and succint comment?
Wow, thank you so much! I am a student therapist and would like to use music therapy, is it possible for me to learn some techniques?
Thank you for the question. It’s a common one. Music Therapy is a profession, so the people who provided it are Board Certified Music Therapists, similar to how the people who provide Talk Therapy are MFTs (or similar.)
As far as “using techniques” : There are things you could potentially learn from music therapy, just like any profession. How you implement them, will depend on your own training, capacity, and application. Whatever you end up doing, would be within the scope of practice of your profession.
Hope that makes sense.
@@KalaniMusic thank you for responding so quickly. I am a student (mft) that believes in a holistic approach and aim at intergrating some theories and some complementary techniques on an intervention level. That is why I was asking. The research shows that although talk therapy helps with "joining" there are other ways to help clients that go deeper into the brain and I find that interesting. It is hard to navigate some of these prespectives at the school of medicine. Very grateful for finding you channel.
@@dana-elainemiddleton9257 I have a friend who is an MFT and an amazing musician. I believe he sometimes uses music in his practice, but I don’t know how.
Some people choose to do both degrees: MFT and MT. I think that is a great combination. If I had the time, I would, but that ship has sailed and I have enough on my plate.
You can always explore music therapy by asking an MT if you could job-shadow them, or by partnering with an MT-BC. Keep asking around and reach out locally.
Question: A Recreational Therapist (CTRS) facilitates a drumming group with active goals/objectives in mind...what do you make of that?
There can be, and often is, overlap between various helping professions. Music Therapy interventions can address some speech, physical, and cognitive goals (through similar methods) and Recreational Therapists sometimes use musical experiences in their work, although they use it as Recreational Therapists, since that is their training. If a CTRS was designing and delivering music interventions all the time, they might be beyond their scope of practice and/or could consider switching to music therapy by doing the required work and becoming a Board-Certified Music Therapist.
My uncle used to make us do the drum circle naked..then he he would spank our bottoms and say this polyrhythm on the left cheek counters the right cheek and than he would film it to transcribe his solo every time...but then he took my gf to show her a private lesson and she broke up with me
I think Kalani would acknowledge that drumming may be described as therapeutic by the individuals participating in drum circles. As a drum circle facilitator, who also happens to be a therapist, though not in music, I would never say that what I do is Music Therapy when facilitating a drum circle. Much the same way that I would never say that I'm doing Physiotherapy when helping a friend with a sports-related injury, because I'm not a physiotherapist. He is simply distinguishing between Music Therapy as a profession, which drum circles are not, unless they are facilitated by a certified and registered Music Therapist, and the sense that drumming, whether in a circle or elsewhere can feel quite "therapeutic" (in a colloquial sense). I do not get the impression that he is minimizing the value or importance of drum circles; he is simply offering an explanation of the difference between the profession of Music Therapy and that of a Drum Circle Facilitator. What I find hard to understand is this: the drum circles that I facilitate and attend are populated by wonderful, inclusive, accepting people. Considering the amount of negative, aggressive, attacking comments Kalani has received for simply offering a clarification on an over - and incorrectly - used term, I cannot help but wonder at the true nature of the commenters. Okay, have at me for defending Kalani's post.
HI Allen - I think you did a great job evaluating my comments. Nothing against drum circles at all. They just are not part of music therapy, nor are they music therapy by themselves - Just something different that shouldn't be conflated. As for negative comments: I haven't read most of them, but it's odd that so many who seem to be for drum circles are often very aggressive and inflexible when it comes to allowing for different viewpoints.
Thank you for educating us on this!
You can study drum circle all you want, be a certified music therapist all you want. You hippies can do that stuff all day. The reality is we Africans gave it to you or rather you took it. You are welcome Kalani. We have been healing people with sound for eons before your mother's mother thought of conceiving you. Keep taking our stuff and claiming it yours or it originates from the 60s and psychadelic movement. We know how it got into America.
olu olu There’s no need to make the conversation personal and aggressive towards any individual or group. Our goal is to help each other through the power of music. Everyone contributes something, and for that, we can be grateful.
You are right. This is an american rubbish
I find it helps me feel better. He over thinking. Good grief.
Anne Daugherty What’s wrong or offensive about seeking to clarify meaning? Lots of things help us feel better, but that is not what this video is about. If you have a question, I would be happy to reply.
But I feel like it could be therapeutic to me.....
TW Chisolm Many activities can be therapeutic, which is another way of saying it helps you feel better. Therapy, as a healthcare service, is a bit of a different process that involves a therapist as a guide.
I would argue that drum circles ran by a facilitator can have as much a place in a person's recovery as clinical groups ran by a musical therapist. Art groups can have a huge place in the same regard, no matter the facilitators background, as long as they are helpf. A spiritual counselor can have as much use as a psychologist, as can a group of peers discussing together with a facilitator, a dietician can be as helpf as a psychiatrist. A gym instructor and a yoga instructor, tai chi. Whatever. Recovery is individual and the participant should find what's best for them. Us involved in mental health should work along side each other, holistic and combined as a community, refer to each other and encourage all forms as is useful to the individual rather than focusing on our individual training.
Jay Taylor Yes - There are many different services provided by all kinds of professionals and paraprofessionals that can all be beneficial. It’s important to know which service is appropriate for what circumstances and make informed choices when providing or prescribing services to people who are receiving any type of care, especially healthcare. While many services are beneficial, they are not interchangeable.
@@KalaniMusic Listen to yourself, long winded, nonsense you speak.
I agree 94.374%.
The only difference between a qualified professional and an enthusiastic amateur is one prostitutes their services by charging a fee, while the other offers their services fee of charge for the sheer pleasure and enjoyment of helping other people.
The next time you fly, consider your statement as related to the pilots.
Can’t wait for the video comparison between music therapy and cooking therapy.😜
Paul Collins There’s no need to be glib. If you have something useful to add, please do.
Ugh...why drone on about this...it is still a matter of interpretation. Your perception/opinion is yours. Why, do you need to make this an issue. I would take issue with your explanations...music has been around way before all of this therapy stuff. Drumming can be relaxing...whether in a group/circle/jam or by oneself. Many find it therapeutic...so your putting a Professional stamp...still just your opinion..Michael Bruno.
Why so aggressive? Should we all call having a casual conversation with a friend, where we feel that it's been therapeutic, Talk Therapy? That seems to be your argument. You may not think it's worth discussing, but there are a lot of people mistakenly labeling drum circles as music therapy and music therapy as drum circles. They both have value - that's not the point. Hope that makes sense.
i am over here, not on the left side.
I DISAGREE W/U WHEN I GO TO DRUM CIRCLES IT RELEASES MY STRESS !
Solomon Pilot What do you disagree with? We can do lots of things that release our stress, but it doesn’t mean those things are defined as therapy. If that were the case, talking a walk could be called physical therapy.
I think drum circles can provide benefits that one on one single instrument music therapy sessions can’t. Drum circles make you feel a sense of connectedness. It’s one of the few ways music therapists can use call and response, a very useful tool that engages patients. Getting lost in a rhythm of your own can feel very uplifting and making and adding to a beat almost always makes patients more energetic and positive. To say drum circles have absolutely nothing to do with music therapy is pretty wack my man...
Did I claim that drum circle "have nothing to do" with music therapy? No. Misrepresenting other people's words or intentions is not a good way to have a meaningful discussion. If you would like to know what I think you're welcome to ask a question, but please don't misrepresent my words, as I don't misrepresent yours.
@@KalaniMusic Ight replace "have absolutely nothing to do with" with don't represent and give me an response.
@@Qwerty-fg1ou Sure. Are you familiar with the many techniques and strategies that are well-documented in music therapy practice? If not, you might be making judgments based on very little information and experience.
As someone who has been facilitating group drumming experiences for over 35 years, at the community level, and working in music therapy for around 15 years, I speak from experience.
No one is comparing the “value” of DCs vs. MT. What this talk is about, is understanding the difference between a drum circle and drumming in music therapy. Although some aspects may look similar from the outside, they are fundamentally different, mainly due to the relationships between participants and therapist, the ways in which specific techniques are used and why, and the outcomes and priorities of both the therapist and clients.
To conflate the two is a mistake, in my opinion - and the reason this video exists, is because some people have done that. This talk is a response to those claims and misinformation.
Hope this helps.
What a waste of time watching you argue with people 🙄
Thanks for the video Kalini! Are you familiar with Remo's HealthRHYTHMS Training? Would you consider that to fall under Music Therapy, or drumming for fun?
Health Rhythms is a procedure-based wellness program. It's not music therapy, although you could consider it a therapeutic music program, depending on the application. Music Therapy requires a music therapist. It doesn't matter if the person is using a particular program model or their own system. A training program or model is not music therapy any more than learning a specific medical procedure makes someone into a doctor. Hope that makes sense. Thank you for your question.
Yes, it does make sense, and clarifies the terms - thanks!
“People in a circle playing drums that is not a drum circle a drum circle means a certain type of experience”.
Later goes on to say ... “a drum circle play music together everyone plays in the contribute to the community based music experience and they get value” and have fun hopefully... 😂 I’m done guys I don’t think he has ever been to a drum circle he said drum circle facilitator but said before.. that it isn’t led by anyone. I’m just confounded on the hypocrisy
Charles Vasquez Not sure why you don’t understand the ideas presented. Do you have a question?
This guy is pissed!
ikr, he slams his fist repeatedly on his desk and exclaims "god dammit!, i lost another client to a drum circle! when will these fucks realize that i took classes. IM IMPORTANT!!!".
I WAS IN ETHIOPIA THEY HAVE A NICE DRUM CIRCLE AND DRUM CIRCLE ORGINALLY CAME FROM AFRICA GET UR FACTS RIGHTS PLZ !
Solomon Pilot Sounds like you may have a misunderstanding of the definition and common use of the term “drum circle.” How can they be from Ethiopia when the term originated in the US? Maybe you are talking about group drumming of some kind.
I’m all fucked up.
I think your values are inaccurate and hurtful. How can you say someone's therapy is invalid.
This is why alot of people don't do therapy because you take what little courage they have to do therapy away by stating their venular is wrong. Your have so many contradictions on this.ay I suggest a learning more before judging based in your degree. More experience not just book learning.
Thank you for your comments, even with the misrepresentations of my statements. There are no personal attacks in my comments, which are based on decades of experience, both in recreational music (drum circles among them) as well as loads of experience in music therapy. Not sure why you think I was saying someone's therapy is invalid. I never said, nor implied it.
Very well explain
second comment in the row (cheers!), but just noticed that this was published just one day before the vid about music games that got me here ( th-cam.com/video/jtbL0vLj2_0/w-d-xo.html ). Coincidence or not.
you're the best bro!