Fence Foam vs Dry Pack vs Wet Set | We compare methods to see which is best for fence posts
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มี.ค. 2021
- Which is the best method for setting fence posts? Wet set concrete, dry pack concrete, or fence post foam? Everybody's got an opinion (and it's never a casual opinion), so we thought we'd set posts with all of these methods to compare and see for ourselves! We put them in the ground and dig them up 3 weeks later out of frozen ground to see which method held up the best, as well as check for any effect from the frost line.
- แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
It would be interesting to see the dry pack after say 6 months to a year. You guys are doing Gods work. Keep up the great content
I think it’s gonna take longer for that for anything noticeable to happen. The dry pack actually works very well.
Gods work? Good grief.
@@theobserver9131 From Lil Giant Good grief yourself, old man.
WTF has god got to do with it, Trumper.
If the Chinese invade we have TH-cam commenters to defend us, they're salty and ready for keyboard warriorship.
Thanks for the video, I just can't trust the foam. Between the smooth surface of the foam and lack of mass 1-2 lbs vs 240 lbs I definitely think concrete has the win. A telephone pole will definitely not have the wind load of a wooden fence, so they can safely use foam.
Worked in the sign industry for 35 years. I dry-packed signposts the whole time. I have installed 5' by 10' electric signs that have to withstand strong wind loads with many hundreds of tons of pressure. There are signs that I installed 30 years ago that were strictly dry packed. They still hold up just fine.
The thing about dry packing and the trick to it is to tamp it a few inches at a time with a rod. This compacts the soil in all directions. In my expert opinion, the dry packed post is sturdier because the soil has been tamped under and around the post. It takes more work to do this though.
I do a lot of dry set and never have any issues but I also add water while doing the dry set. They were just allowing for the moisture in the soil to create the setting but in dry soil it will take forever to set it at all. Just add water to the hole and continue to add water until it stops absorbing. It’s simple, easy, and works great.
It seems they took “dry set” literally, common sence should dictate that water is still needed, the advantage is eliminating the mixing work. As you well know.
Yep, the instructions for the fast setting concrete specifically call for adding water. 🤦♂️
Mark did he say 18 inches deep and 4 bags of Crete?Do you first put in the dry concrete and then put water in?
@@philipskrusso1153 I add water to the hole then the concrete then more water till it quits absorbing
@@nomadicfenceman509 ozozo oolog where e
A great comparison. Thanks for takin the time to really test the differences. The removal and examination of each method shows a lot more detail that just reading the packaging info.
I can't believe how much I actually enjoyed this video and laughed my butt off even though this is a very legitimate set of tests. Really appreciate it, thanks!
Advice I received from an Uncle over 60 years ago on how to properly put up a fence.
1) Dig post-holes until you are sick and tired of digging post-holes.
2) Plant fence posts until you are sick and tired of planting fence posts.
3) Stretch wire until you are sick and tired of stretching wire.
4) Go back to step One.
Good stuff!
@Hello David how are you doing
Thank you ...
I like it when a TH-cam video delivers only the facts and only the facts based on the title of the video in a clear English voice with no background music to distract for the information being delivered ...
I rate this video 5 stars and I have subscribed to your channel ...
That was actually pretty damn good science guys. I actually found this looking at placing 24 6x6 piers for a 46x16 deck in 48" frost line NE. For that, I think I learned that since I'm going 60" deep, my below frostline cookies/base foot are gonna have to be wet crete.
i appreciate how much time and energy you guys put into doing this video! you did tests that apply to real world. 👍
Thank you!
Thank you for your time and for sharing!
A great demonstration of the different post securing methods , thanks guys.
I've never relied on water in the ground when using dry pack. I always add some water after each bag. Never had a problem.
Good call. If we ever decided to dry pack we would do the same.
We usually pour a little water in the hole, dump the bag in ,level the post and pour the rest of the water and pack wet concrete. If you can keep the end of the packing stick in the water whe packing you won't splash yourself...at least not as much
A very interesting test, really appreciated the information provided. Something to remember though is sometimes having a weaker foundation is advantage as nothing lasts forever and if something needs replacing or repair, having a system where it is not difficult to remove objects can be helpful. I often have a concrete base, fill the middle with dirt and the top 1/4-1/3 solid concrete. Generally solid enough but you can break the post out with a crow bar later on with out needing a negative g machine.
thanks
Have you had to take out your own posts? Cause concrete base then dirt then concrete and sono tube is pretty strong, stronger than just concrete.
Awesome video.! ! !
Thank you for all your time and money put into this experiment.
GREAT TEST.
Thank you! Cheers!
One of the best videos I've seen on the performance of these types of post settings! Way to go. Thanks
Thanks!
Excellent work! Helps all us single post home owners make solid decisions!
I’m glad you find it helpful!
@Hello Stewart how are you doing
Guys, thanks for the comparison. Next time you do this, try putting a load cell on a chain to measure the amount of force required to pull over each pole. My guess is that the wet set will resist the most, and depending upon where you attach the chain, you might even bend the pipe on that one.
Great suggestion! 👍🏻
Really nice video, helpful to see some real world examples/tests on these approaches. One comment I'd add is regarding the foam. The disadvantage I see with all of these new foam products (sealing basements, mounting poles, attic insulation, etc) is that we really need to start to consider what happens to this material at the end of its life. Yes, it will last for a long time, but nothing lasts forever. I fear having all of these foam applications will leave us with a disposal nightmare in a few decades. Not that humans are good at thinking a head all that often.
I guess we are lucky here in the northeast(New Jersey)area your ground looks a lot rockier,we just mark all the post locations,measure down from the top for the post height,place two magnetic levels,then push them in the solid ground with the bobcat bucket,but we would have to wet pour our corners and gate posts.l really your bracing techniques I’m going to try the bent rods to brace the wet posts.Great video!
In Michigan we almost always use treated 4x4 for fence posts. I always use pea gravel or some kind of washed stone. To back fill the hole
Excellent video gentlemen, thank you!!
Really appreciate the thoroughness and the scientific approach!!
Set thousand of feet of posts. Dig hole , fill with water , pour cement in and walk away. 3 days later string fence . That was using steel , 4x4 and even landscaped timbers as posts . Never had a issue 20 plus years later. Oiled wood posts once every 3 years .
When you say oil do you mean the tops/end grain? What oil did you use?
Valvoline or Quaker State?
@@alexnutcasio936 Pennzoil Synthetic... 5W30
Put the post in before water and cement?
I oil my wood more often and has lasted me more than 40 years :).
Outstanding! Thank you very much.
Amazing amazing vid!!! So much detail that I’ve always wanted to know. Thank you 🙏
I love you guys. Best idea and video I've seen all month! THANK YOU! I could never do this myself, obvs.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Damn that bell sound was defenetly a shock wave. It felt like it was ringing like here live.
Thank you!!!👍
Great channel Sir!
I'm a Civil Engineer and commercial General Contractor.
There is a lot that goes into a concrete mix design. There is a specific water content to portland cement ratio (w/c) to yield a maximum compressive strength. Other things and ratios come into play when evaluating concrete durability, air content, whats the end use, etc... In the video you mention the yield strength, it is actually compressive strength.
Keep up the great videos!
Steve C, P.E. (Professional Engineer)
Thanks for sharing!
You forgot to mention how the aggregate in bagged mix segregates during transit which is why it should always be mixed.
I use foam. Sika costs about the same as three bags of concrete and I just throw the post in the hole, dump in the Sika and then level the post and hold it for 60 seconds. That's much easier when working solo, in my mind.
This is a well thought out well planned quality video. I’ve been in construction for years and I already know all this stuff but this was a very fun video to watch. The combination of your good attitudes fun talk and great sense of humors and most important ability to explain the process and what you’re doing for someone who’s never done it,was excellent. Anyways keep up the great work you got a good core group of guys there I predict big things for you guys. 👍
Great video!! Thanks. I was considering dryset, but will go for wetset after watching this.
The effort was much appreciated, fellas!
Thanks so much!
Many thanks for your video. Wet set is all I've known about and the other two options are interesting. Your presentation style: super! I'm now a subscriber.
Glad it was helpful!
I wrapped my 6 X 6 posts with "Resisto" which is used as an underlay for roofing. It has a sticky side where you peel off the membrane before applying it. Posts I set over 10 years ago are still holding up. The membrane goes up about 10 inches above ground level. I backfill with earth and compact it down with a 2 X 4 as I fill the side up. I live just west of Montreal where we get rain, snow, hot summers and freezing cold winters. This technique has worked well for me.
.
I've seen similar systems promoted. I prefer steel still.
@@SWiFence just wondering how much would be a 4x4 steel post for a home fence?
What a great video. You really put in the hard work to show the differences!
Thanks!
When I say I’m dry packing a post, i dig the hole, set the post, dump as many bags needed to fill the hole about 85% after packing it then pour the recommended amount of water per bag. It will start to Percolate through the concrete. By the time u set 2 to8-10-12 post that first one is already setting up good. For me when I’m replacing a post for a customer it takes 1.5 to 2 60 bags of concrete mix per hole. When dry packing I don’t have any set time and can attach the panels and move to the next post that might 6 panels up the fence line. Any fence I built I use 3 2x4 attached to the post with screws and L brackets. Each 5.5”x6’ picket gets 6 screws. Loved the video , I have heard about using foam but this is the first time seeing. Of course we don’t get much freezing in so cal.
Dry packing is very common. Many let the ground moisture cure the concrete over time rather than add water when done. Personally we are driving more and more due to the way it holds up over time with no frost issues. Cheers!
Marvelous - yeah as usual 'simpler' rarely provides the best results. Its good to see it tested in this case.
Knowledge is power. Thanks for watching!
Your results were just as I expected. I have always used wet concrete to set fence posts.
I’d like to see this same test with 4x4 PT (used more in the PAC NW). Thanks for the great vid!
Great point!
for timber posts just backfill with soil and ram well a dry hole is harder to ram but will pack tighter. steel post must be concreted to 3 inches above ground level to stop the rusting off so quick.
Great demonstration. Thanks.
For the homeowner going to Home Depot you might want to pick the foam option, it's lighter, it's not corrosive on your lungs and sets faster. 35 bags of concrete will sink the shocks on your van and paying for delivery is expensive. Wet set can be a problem if you need to replace a post but unfortunately there's the old concrete plug right where the new post needs to be. With dry pack you might have a chance of replacing a post.
Better yet, drive them!
@@SWiFence Not an option for a homeowner doing a DIY project.
Good class, I couldn’t believe The foam stuff was that good, Wet mix is the way to go. First time on your channel.
Thank you!
I agree.. Wet mix is the way I do it
You guys had me laughing out loud🤣 thank you for the test! Coming from a first time home owner & fence builder looking for the best methods
Glad you enjoyed it!
I am in Massachusetts. Not quite as cold as your area. But I did 56 sections of 5 ft x 8ft. cedar fence with metal posts.
There are 3 gates 4 ft. wide, and a 14 foot opening with 7 foot gates. They are ALL done with foam. 8 inch holes 2 ft. deep.
the post is hammered in an additional foot. The fence is now 8 or 9 years old and still as straight as the day it was put up.
I even had a tree take out a section with very little post movement. I don't know if I am allowed to say what foam I used,
but I'm going to. It is called Secure Set. it is 6 lb. closed cell foam. I really like this stuff.
Concrete tends to continue to hydrate (cure) as long as water is available. The foundations for the grandstands at Wiggly Field measured at 7500 psi when tested with a 2500 psi mix. I'd expect both concrete foundations to continue to get stronger with time.
Wiggly field😂😆😂
@@JO-ly3hi Yup. Home of the Piggly.
My dad taught me the dry pack method, only we added water and packed it with the back of a shovel.
When I set a post I pour water in the hole and dry pack the concrete tamping and adding water as I come to the top of the hole. It creates a very sturdy footer even before the concrete sets. It makes it much more difficult for posts to be knocked out of line while they are setting up.
Sturdy my ass. Mix the concrete before hand
Exactly... not rocket science... makes perfect sense.
@@MrBmxbrawler it’s pretty darn sturdy
appreciate the hard work to make an educational video
Great experiment. Thank you for this information!
Thanks for watching!
Cheers from a ChemE on talking about exothermic reactions; you guys really know your stuff. Great video, thanks!
Thanks!
@@SWiFence I thought you guys drove your posts?
That was exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you for doing that video.
You're welcome! Thanks for passing that along. 👍🏻
I did a test with Sika foam and I am convinced it is not the same as the industrial foam set application. I noticed the post twisted more when drying as well as the packs that you get are more expensive as well as you need more for larger holes. I have seen the hydro company use foam but it can’t be the same stuff
I used Sika last year, it pulls away from the post after a day, complete failure. I did have better luck with Fast2K.
Very educational. Thank you!
If you're using galvanized pipe, fencing a property likely to be yours for decades then use the sure thing, wet concrete. Our family has a few that are over 50 years old and still going strong.
I am a structural engineer and I recommend that with this foam product you go narrower and deeper holes
@@galacticunderground1 and using same or less material
This was a great video! Passing it on.
Much appreciated!
Love the videos, keep em coming. I would like to see the comparison of dry set with water poured on top. I say this because that is what Quikrete engineers recommend. They have no mention of even packing the dry concrete. Simply dry pour it and add water to the top....... Just a thought...... Thanks again, awesome videos.
I don't think we would see much change as long as there is adequate moisture in the ground.
I've never seen that in writing from any concrete supplier. Where did you hear that?
@@briangc1972 QuikRete website, QuikRete youtube how to videos and its on some of the bags.
So my three sense from experience. It is not so much the filler as much as the ground firmness. I'm on Maryland and I've done lot of 4x4 posts, 6ft fence and 9ft fencing. I go three feet down with a auger bit just a bit bigger than the 4x4 then put the dirt on all four sides 6inches and pound pound pound, I use the metal pole with the head broken off and use that end after pre-pound with a piece of one of the slats from the stockade fence. Add 6in of loose dirt and pound pound pound then heavy pound with metal bar. Repeat all the way up and generally I have to have extra dirt on hand to make a mound and pound to slope water away. The space should only take up enough dirt to fill the area where there is no wood but when pounding it tightens the ground around it and that is why it all fits into that small space and then some.. That is the trick!!!! I have replace all sorts of concrete crap that just pushed over in the loose or wet soil.
With my method I have never had a problem 20 years later and even the 9ft fence was the only one standing when a nasty storm (diminished hurricane) came through and it saved the house from flying debris. I got a lot of jobs after that "test".
What is with the pulling up and out business?? What matters is that it does not wobble back and forth!! Period.
Oh I like the "oil" every three years as suggested below... and yes the metal even the thick galvanized will rust and break at ground level which I use oil and then a short bit of PVC
All the best .. good stuff though on the video... (though it was proof of what we knew already and foam will hold moisture and deteriorates in just a few months so big waist of time and money there.
The extra time it takes to pound the dirt properly is more than offset by the time and expense of getting and loading and unloading and mixing and shoveling and poring and all that nonsense with concrete!!! And as stated al too often the whole lump of concrete just tips over.. though usually the depth is very shallow ... but you guys went over two feet so it would be less but they still will wobble due to wind turning it into a roller coaster ride along the fence.
I like the concept of drypack dirt. In this part of the country it’s mostly clay, and rainy. The soil gets too wet to tamp.
Also most of my customers ask for concrete.
If I lived in drier country I’d prob do like you do.
Great demo,thanks
thank you for the comparison
Love this video it Shows contractors Are goofballs When trying to outdo one another. Glad I ran across this video
I just did nine post with Sitka and it is very spongy strong winds hit after the storm in Portland Oregon and I had to come back two weeks later dig out all the foam and put cement in each hole there’s also a weight factor thousand pounds of cement compared to 20 pounds of foam holding down your fence. Foam for dry climates hard soil. I used another foam from Home Depot that came in 2 gallon jugs that set up Denser and I used it on a vinyl fence and capped the foam with cement and it worked beautifully. Happy customer beautiful fence no worries of posts working themselves loose from the wind.
Joe Everest did a video on the Sitka product compared to others and found it was the worst on the market. They weren’t very happy with his video. You are confirming what he found.
I used Sitka also, I would not use again, loose and soft, very light duty stuff, fence is already getting looser, I expect I'll be redoing it soon.
Great practical experiment. 👍
Thanks!
Enlightening. Thanks!
@Hello Trent how are you doing
Great video. Thanks for the effort of this video to teach us.
Excellent! Thank You!
Ok solved my problem. Will be wet set for my project. The ring of that pile of wet set said it all.
Well done enjoyed. Good test , Mr black Angus bull.
Saw 2 fighting wipe out rail road tie post like it never was there.the next horizon in fencing.just a tourist
Wow, talk about going above and beyond to test a product. Bravo, FJB!!
Thanks!
FOURTH METHOD:
DRY-WET HYBRID:
If you have two people there's no need to brace the pole - one person holds the pole and applies a level, while the other person pours and mixes:
1. Pour in dry, filling only 1/3 of hole, add small amounts of water while stab mixing.
2. Repeat for filling the second third of the hole.
3. Repeat for filling the remainder of the hole.
Great video 👍
Exactly what I do with wife as a helper. I honestly don't trust foam yet. I know it can last a long time, but it tends to weaken with time. On the other hand, cement gets stronger.
Exactly. I use this method and my posts aren’t going anywhere. Another benefit is, you could build on the post immediately if you wanted to.
had to subscribe just because you guys work so hard... thx
Thanks for the sub!
Thanks for the comparison
Thanks for watching!
Fences are often positioned to side the road and during winter the snow plows move the snow against the fence and by winters end, there can be 10 feet of snow pushing against the fence. Under such pressure I would not have any confidence in the dry-pack or foam methods. From your great experimenting, one can summarize that if the fence is delimiting no stress areas like between two properties or the back yard, any of the methods could be used but for the fence on the front yard where the road is, I would only use wet-pack. Don't forget that the stress on the post is exerted by the total length of fencing between the posts and so the snow-pack would apply proportionally more stress on the posts than a direct impact would on the post itself.
I welded 4 inch bolts onto the bottom portion of the posts before pouring in the concrete for a super strong hold. Still strong 4 years and counting...
Yes this is fairly common.
The drypack's only advantage is fast install time. But it should topped off with H20. Maybe very hot water in your climate zone.
It is definately weaker, tho.
I found that if you use too much concrtete makes the post resist side pressure less... if you use less concrete (less than half of your hole) you can use a tamper to tamp the dirt when you back fill. works the best. Makes it extremely difficult to if not impossible to remove with back and forth side pressure. Also i like to take a pipe wrenck and flare the bottom of the post which securely locks it in
Very good video. 👍I'm more informed about it. Thank you 😊
Glad you liked it. 👍
Good video. I think the larger engineering concern would be frost under the post raising the post up.
Great video. I'm also curious about the dry pack over a long period of time. I've always heard that dry pack cures very slowly over a long period of time resulting in a stronger concrete. And clearly from your video it was still curing at 1 week.
Dry pack has been proven in testing to never properly cure. The outer portion eventually seals enough to prevent enough moisture to penetrate, so the inside core never receives the proper moisture to achieve it's rated strength. But as he said, it is stronger and quicker than the foam. It is also cheaper than the foam. But it is inconsistent in strength, so it can not be used for structure application; i.e. utility poles
Up here in wet rainy Oregon, some of us use Pea Gravel for the post. It
helps a few ways, like if the post moves even a fraction in the wind the
gravel sinks and tightens the post continually never letting the post
get loose. (Just keep the pea gravel capped off). Also, the water has a
drain away from the post ground level so the water rot in that spot is
no longer a problem. Another way it helps is that there is no concrete
mixing! Many up here think it's faster and better.
🤔
If the post warps and needs replaced, the rocks will fall down when you pull the post. Then what? Pull it all out a handful at a time? Too much work.
@@randomgamer-st1ie If you don't have an auger, I guess that's what you'll need to do. But pulling the pea gravel out by hand on one hole to me would be much easier than pouring concrete on every hole, then constantly having to do repair work on ground level rot on all the polls. Luckily, we don't see that dreadful warping you mentioned, at any rate!
Good video. Thanks guys.
I like the content your putting out here. I personally work with guys who like to put the water in the hole and then pour dry concrete in the hole and they claim it works better. I never do this and always mix concrete while they cut corners. It never sets up as strong because I have pulled post right out of the ground. I guess I'm just old school.
We order all our mud from a concrete company in trucks. Most of what we do is commercial where they would never allow any of this. Our goal is to show the difference and let folks decide for themselves.
@@SWiFence Good video, but, when working in freezing temps, calcium chloride is often added in while working in or around freezing temps or some other form of antifreeze agent which helps keep the mud from freezing while it sets up and cures, also some form of an insulating blanket is also used sometimes. By adding certain types of agent(s), it also helps it to be greatly stronger when cured... maybe you could do a video about that... which is the best method???
I agree. If you read the instructions on the bag of concrete it says MIX!
Add some sort of horizontal element to the portion of the post buried underground to see if that will benefit the process.
I use the steel bar method.
1. Dig a hole with a post hole digger.
2. Place the post in the hole.
3. Use a 1 inch dia steel bar (not a pipe) to compact the soil as someone slowly adds it to the hole.
I have not set a fence post in concrete in 30 years.
Well after 3hrs you can build on foam. I watched a utility company set wood poles using foam in fla after hurricane Michael. They do so since there’s a lack of water and they mix in hole plus in sand side loading is bad for all.
Homes in the area that used concrete in fencing, turned those in flying sledgehammers to the neighborhoods two story roofs. I’m not sure of the code but most were one bag in sand soil. Those houses looked like a fire hose was inside for hours!
Fantastic! Excellent review of the three options that are on the table today. I couldn't stop laughing at the wet set hammer work. They all could be good enough, if done right. I suspect that there might be some improvement in the dry set in the coming months, but also some degrading in the coming years. The wet set is likely the strongest from 4hrs to 40 years, but from 48 hrs to 20 years it likely makes no difference wet or dry since it is so thick, especially if you toss some water down the hole before and a little on top before you leave. except... I think if you compare a THIN long hole. I suspect that if you dug 36in deep 8in dia holes the weakness of the dry set will be an issue, but the wet set will be fine, and save a lot of concrete. I suspect that the 4kpsi wet set will be fine down to even a 6" hole, which is like only one 80# bag vs four 60# in a 12" hole.
I would like to see a comparison of a 6" hole to a 12" hole 36" deep wiggle and pull. or 36 x 8 compared to 24 x 12? Knowing where good enough with some buffer is, can prevent a lot of extra work and cost.
side note: I really don't get why people dig a hole 6" deeper than they pore concrete into. I can sort of see a reason for an inch of gravel at the bottom, but if i am going from 30" deep to 36", i want concrete down there, even if it is a couple of inches under my pole (steel or wood), but not 6" of wasted digging.
That’s a great observation and some thing we will have to test. The reason we dig deeper than the post is for two reasons: the first is to be able to get below the frost level without buying additional post and the second would be that’s what the specs say.
@Hello Larry how are you doing
Larry thanks for the comment.Did you figure out the depth an diameter of holes?
Thankyou, and don't forget to do an update every couple of years! 😉
The utility my brother works for in ND uses clean rock in areas where the ground is "swampy". I started using this method many years ago and have found it to not only be the most economical (next to just putting the dirt back) but the most effective and easiest. Rock almost packs itself with just a little vibration and makes the post easy to remove if needed. If the post should lean can be easily straightened and a little more gravel packed around it and just keeps getting tighter. Additionally posts don't rot or rust in rock like they do in concrete. Just my 2 cents. At today's inflation rate possibly worth as much as a nickel.
no concrete, just pure rock? what size?
This is not a bad suggestion at all. A mix of good rock and some small amount of concrete would probably be as good as full concrete
Great comparison and good personalities!
Thanks!
Thanks guys!!
Our pleasure.
Notice that ringing sound?
Yeah... It was the side of your pickup ringing as concrete bounced off of it 😂
Fantastic content...and humor! I guess that my only question is, how strong does a fence post 'foundation' need to be? In other words, what load does a fence post take and therefore, is just packed clay and rocks good enough...or foam, dry pack, wet set? ...guess climate and soil types have a lot to do with what is best along with metal vs. wood posts (does material around the post affect rust or rot time).
Awesome Thanks guys
Thanks for sharing 👍🏽
Thanks for watching!
It's good that you showing us😮
Interesting! Great vid!
Great tutorial and information
Thank you so much!
Around here in SE Washington lots of
Fence companies just do dry pack but they add water before and after putting the post and concrete in. But we have lots of soft dirt in most places so it’ll be much harder than the surrounding dirt.
Its common all over the country
You guys are a trip!!!! I just want to hangout with you guys at work just to laugh!!! 😂
Sounds like fun!
Bring a shovel and come on!