Fact is, almost everything is better today than it was 50 years ago, but many people think the exact opposite is true. The tools that were made 50 years ago were more expensive in comparison with what's available today when you take into account the reduction in the buying power of our money. Like everything else that fills a need and can be effectively mass produced, the cost has actually gone down. With regard to quality and the notion of "planned obsolescence", you typically get what you pay for and it lasts as long as it was designed to last, given the cost to make it. Most retail products have to hit a manufacturing cost that is around 20% of the final selling price to make it profitable to produce. So when you see a cordless drill kit that retails for $400, the manufacturer typically has that complete, packaged and out the door for around $80 to make it worth selling. Products just don't appear out of thin air - people make them and get paid. And people make the raw materials that make the products and they get paid. So it's truly remarkable that we can have these sophisticated tools available at such low cost, yet so many don't seem to appreciate it.
In the good old days, the companies were price conscience also. It was just they used the raw materials that they knew about at the time. In the 70s, if they had the plastic and electronic technology as today they would use it. They make top of the line makitas today and lower grade makita kits, it's what the person is willing to pay
@@victorhopper6774 where do you think that's happening? And slavery is like pregnant - it's an all or nothing thing. Either you are a slave or you are not. If you are working voluntarily and getting paid, you aren't a slave.
@@IBuildItScrapBin some how i don't think they had a choice when they 20 years ago making 50 cents an hour. and now they are making a buck fifty. i remember a article in the detroit free press around 1990 talking about 50 or so employees there getting executed for making bad refrigerators . and suicide nets in their living quarters. who are you kidding? sure millions of them working for a nickel on the dollar because they want to.
People also fail to remember survivorship bias. There were plenty of poorly made tools in the 1970s and before, I'd imagine that the ratio of "well-built" and "garbage" tools that existed in 1970, or before, is probably the same ratio today.
As a contractor I buy DeWalt tools and not expensive Festool ones because I know I'll neglect it and I'm comfortable with that, at the end of a long day it'll get thrown in the Van and not gently packed into a box, it'll never get any maintenance, it'll be used in the rain, it'll get dropped. It'll do a respectable job and last 2 years and for the price I accept it'll need to be replaced. It's earned its money and I'm happy with that. The vintage tools in immaculate condition that people buy now and fawn over how well it still works is likely because it was never used for any real work when it was originally purchased.
I've read through a lot of my granddads old Popular Mechanics from the 60's and the price on tools in those were similar to now, so with inflation probably close to 10x. And there was lots of build your own tool projects and tools that were powered by a drill to save the price of a motor
John, FYI, I was adding 1500 sq ft to my house in 1978. The Craftsman skill saw I had died. My father-in-law ran a family building supply. My wife went to get me a new saw. I had a choice of the last metal housing saw he had or a new plastic housing saw he had just go in. This was in 1978, I chose the metal housing. I used it to put the rest of the addition on to my house. It lasted me 15 years and the drive gear broke. Skill informed me that they did not keep parts for my saw past ten years. My wife went to the library, no computer, and got the address for Emerson Electric, the parent company of Skill. I boxed it up and sent it to the CEO of Emerson Electric. The Next week I got a letter explaining the same BS about how long they kept parts for my saw. BUT then they said not to worry, they were sending me a new saw. Two days later I had a new saw in the mail. I am still using that saw today. Sorry for the lengthy comment, I feel my story goes well with your video. I like the fact that you don't mind telling it like it is. Most folks don't have the grit for the truth anymore, it might not be politically correct. I forgot to tell you I paid $105.00, his cost. He sold it retail for $145.00.
I have an ancient Sears Craftsman handheld belt sander that I use all the time (you might even say it's the only one I own!) I love it. It has some great features: -Weighs a ton -Minimal ergonomics -Almost enough power -Gets really hot after about 5 minutes of use (keeps you from getting too much done) -The gorgeous cast baremetal body retains all of that heat
I totally agree new stuff is made to better tolerances etc and has more features that most of the old stuff Planned obsolescence for consumer goods here is what they do. the example is a cheap electric lawn mower. They work out the average use of the average user over a three year life span. lets assume a 4 month lawn cutting season. 16 weeks, but they lawn cut every two weeks. so 8 weeks of use of 30 minutes use. thats 4 hours use a year. 12 hours use total. so lets use materials that will last 14-16 hours and offer it with a 3 year warranty. Thats why things like bearing housings are made of plastic... after x amount of hours use the plastic melts the shaft moves and the mower shakes itself to bits. It goes to recycling and the owner goes off and buys another one. in the 50's and 60's at least in the UK the car industry also had planned obsolescence ... thats why cars rusted away with in a few years....the Rover company in the 60's designed a new car with a 12 year life span...they must have thought it would help sales of new ones and it probably did ...but once you had one why did you want another....Rover is no more....
I hear it all the time in my automotive repair business. "They don't make them like they used to!" That's for sure, today when your car reaches 100k miles, it needs new plugs. When I was a kid, cars with 100k miles needed a new engine.
MTBF, Mean Time Before Failure is something that is often listed in products specifications as the basis for warranty durations. Manufacturers know the life span of what they build very accurately
MTBF (mean time between failure) is based on historical data - how long tools, either in laboratory testing or real world use, have lasted. Since there are so many variables (between users, materials, applications, etc), it is not a very accurate gauge for any one particular tool. You might use that tool (push harder, etc) very differently than I might.
I once saw where a Black & Decker drill from the 70's had an estimated life of 10 hours. It was targeted at homeowners who'd use it twice a year to hang pictures or something. I mean fair enough, but still. I doubt many of those still exist.
very true the new stuff is so much better to use. but i think what a lot of people are talking about when they think it’s not built like it used to be is longevity. my radial arm saw from the 70s is a bitch to keep setup but it’s a joy to use and will be working for 100 more years over built the the extreme with quality metal
I have a Bosch hammer drill I bought ~40 years ago. That little drill has done so much work and suffered so much abuse. It has been used in the rain, dropped from ladders. Many times it has got so hot I couldn't hold it. It is like "grandpa's axe" - it has had many sets of bearings and brushes, and the trigger switch has been disassembled and cleaned a few times (but not replaced). Despite me best efforts, that little thing (with repairs) just keeps plugging on. I am not saying it is "better" in any way, just impressed with how it's "bones" are basically solid - and recognising that a less stubborn individual would have tossed it in the trash years ago...
I am building John's belt and disc sander using his plans. If it breaks I can rebuild it or rebuild the part. Hope to be finished this weekend, it's a fun build.
I have an engineer friend that works for an equipment manufacturer. They have a product that needs to meet specific criteria and has to last for a specific time frame. They then assemble parts and stress test a prototype to determine a good estimate for it's life span. They then beef up parts or swap in cheaper parts until the whole machine is designed to all last for it's given life time. I think this is where the whole "planned obsolescence" comes from. The trouble comes from when a user buys a good and expects it to last considerably longer than it's designed lifespan. Most products are designed and built for business or commercial use and there are generally accepted depreciation curves. This gives the equipment manufacturer a good idea of the lifespan they need to design to, while providing a cost effective product.
In manufacturing design, we get input from the sales and marketing teams, based on what customers are asking for and what they think consumers will buy (and of coarse they want the world when it comes to features and benefits but they don't want to pay for it). When we tell them what it would cost to produce what they are asking for, they tell us they could never sell the product for that price. So we always end up designing the product to meet a price point, which usually means less features and causes production to go off-shore because most products can't be made in America at a low enough cost. Products aren't specifically designed for "planned obsolescence", but when new models are always coming out with new features, the consumer usually ditches the older product in order to get the newer features, and sometimes we offer trade-in programs to facilitate the upgrade at a lower cost to the consumer.
That saw in the 70s would last maybe a couple years if you were on a framing crew, probably the same as a wormdrive skil in the 90s, guys are rough on them. I'm sure that plastic Dewalt would do the same, but the improvements in the weight and bevel Guages and portability are game changers today.
Old tools do last longer!! I have a 61/2 Skill saw that I bought in 1973 when I got out of the Navy. It still runs great, but have had to replace the brushes. I have gone through 3 Kobalt saws of the same size in the last 10 yrs...
I've used those type of saw forever. I'm 65 now. The first one I got for $5 and put a cord on it. I think I still have. The one I use today was new in 2004. Craftsman 3.25 hp. It's the most expensive one I've bought, on sale I think $59. The other 2 I've had in the past I blew the gears out cutting metal with them. I have a cheap Skil throwaway $29/$39 also. I do have a collection of drills that have had battery pack upgrades to lipo battery packs. One thing about "old tools" they already know how to do their job, you just have to do your part. Thanks for the videos!
Im still using my 3 Milwaukee circular saws from the 70s. 2 trigger 6 1/2" and an 8 1/4" that rips hard maple like butter. Weight is a good thing. More stable / better results. I have almost every brand of tools. No on company does everything best.
1:50 Sonos did just that with their wireless audio system, just a few years ago. It might not be a thing for Tools (yet), but it's a very real thing in the electronics world. "Internet of Things" turned from a good idea into a real mess, because of such company behaviours.
Actually, there are products with timers in them. For example there is an electric bicycle in one of our big stores that dies after 3 years. It says the battery is empty and refuses to charge. But if you open up the battery casing and reset the BMS chip, the timer resets and the battery charges as normal again...
And if it was put there for safety reasons? That is the best explanation for such a device. I'm talking about the widespread misconception that most manufactured items today are design to fail after a certain time, what's been labeled as "planned obsolescence", and not any fail-safe features a product like a rechargeable battery or a printer would have.
Yes it may be so, but the battery shows no sign of degradation for a long time after the reset. Too much of a safety margin imo. Regarding the other stuff I'm with you. There is an expected life span on things, and there is the cost of the materials. It's a fine art in enginering stuff to have just the right amount of material thickness and so on to get the expected life out of it, (it probably will continue working for ages) but not _guaranteed_ for very much longer. Like your Skilsaw there. Way overengeered. Like you said, nobody wants to use it.
Dell laptop batteries do that. The safety argument is bogus, the BMS should shut the battery down if one cell gets out of spec, not kill it after X numbers of cycles.
@@IBuildItScrapBin It seemed to be only a few models, I have seen a few where it seemed to lock out the still good battery. They still lock you into using their 'official' power adapters though, hopefully 'USB Power Delivery' will kill all that crap off too. Not a Dell fan.
Thanks. Agree with you. I have some of my Dad’s portable power tools from when I was a farm boy. Used them all then, use my own tools now. Weight is one of the big reasons. Variable speed reversible on the drills seals the deal.
I think it depends on what we're talking about. I have two old Rockwell Delta drill presses from the early 50's. Aside from rewiring the plug and switch, the drill press is incredible! No plastics or thin, cheesy medal. Does it have the digital depth stop? No. Does it have automatic belt adjustment? No. Does it have a three knob handle? No. Do I care about any of those things? Absolutely not! I'll put these drill presses up against ANY drill press you can buy today and they'd do amazingly well! The runout is still within spec on one and the second one is just outside of spec. Perfectly acceptable for woodworking and most DIY shop needs. So I think it depends on the tools you are comparing and the needs of the user.
And probably next to no one that had a home workshop back then could afford those machines. So you can't make a one to one comparison between a production ready tool from the 1950's with a retail tool today and say the vintage one wins. You need to compare them to modern production machines that are in the same price range adjusted for inflation. A $1000 tool back then is a $10,000 tool today.
It is planned in that they plan to stop production of replacement parts at a certain date. But I totally understand that manufacturers cannot possibly produce parts for many years to come. The aggravating part of that is that some manufacturers shut off parts replacements far too soon. They make a minor change to the device and immediately make the last model and its parts obsolete.
Well, pick a manufacturer that operates that way. If you can find one. And if you are willing to pay the difference. Most people aren't and that's what has shaped the industry. People seem to be confused about what I'm saying in this video. I'm saying it's not the manufacturer's fault that people are cheap. They are just giving them what they want. If they don't, someone else will.
@@IBuildItScrapBin Exactly, it's a matter of bottom-line along with advancement. But I would much rather have the tools of today than yesteryear. With the exception of a small few of the hand tools. Keep on ad keep up with the excellent videos.
Everything on the production line costs money. Storing parts in an organized warehouse so they can be sold for repair, that costs money. If manufacturers do that, they will have to charge more for the product, or they will have to charge a lot of money for the spares (and then you will accuse them of price-gouging). It just doesn't work for low-cost consumer products. But it can work, I guess, for industrial things like pumps and motors. Also, for very popular products, SOMEONE will step up and manufacture replacement parts if the market is big enough.
@@IBuildItScrapBin That's the source of the "cheap chinese shit". Your customers want a 20 cent drill bit? Ok, we skipped sharpening & hardening, enjoy.
There are actual planned obsolescence. The older printers for example. Some had counters in them that were programmed to stop the printer after a certain amount of prints and make you change the cartridge. No matter if it was needed or not. The cartridge often was still half full at that point.
Basically, I agree with your points. There is one thing I'll point out that is different, back in the 1970s when that all-aluminum Skill saw was purchased there were only a few options, and all were basically within one or two price points. Now when I go to a good tools store they will have a really really cheap, like sub $100 corded Chinese brand saw and a Festool cordless. Back in the day, there were no cheap Chinese branded throw-away saws. Yes, we are living in very good times now. Cheers from Tokyo! Stu
Nearly everyone that makes a comment does pretty much the same thing: they answer the rhetorical question asked in the title and completely ignore what was said in the video. Maybe you can explain to me why that is.
@@IBuildItScrapBin That's not what I was doing. In your video you suggest that it's "nostalgia" or people imagining things. That may be part of it but it's not JUST that. Cheaper materials were invented in the last 100 years.
I said that in the first minute of a 10 minute video. Did you stop watching there? Because the point I'm making in the video is that it is the consumer that determines how good or bad a tool is when they buy the less expensive one. Therefore the reason why cheaper materials and processes were developed was to satisfy the buyer, not to save the manufacturer a few bucks.
@@IBuildItScrapBin I didn't mean to disagree with that point. Just advance the idea that cheapening over history is no illusion. Probably there is a ratchet effect because of the ratchet of technological development. Cheaper things when discovered are always adopted to some extent, because they increase quantity of production (satisfying buyers). Higher and higher quantities of lower and lower qualities create environment where average cheapness of things that people encounter goes cheaper over time.
I still see many woodworkers getting e.g. really old but high quality bandsaws, planers and table saws. They usually need a bit of work to get back to their original prime but e.g. cast iron tables and housings were made from solid and high quality materials. Today you get plastic, pressed steel and hardened aluminium instead, and often fairly poorly machined and finished from the factory. For handheld power tools new is probably always better than old - the weight issue as you mentioned is hard to get around - but for stationary tools, where weight is a bonus, new does often not compare to old unless you have all the money in the world to spend. An yes, old is usually much noisier, harder to find parts for, and with little or no dust collection, but you can still get a fantastic tool for a lot less than buying a similar 'cheap' Chinese produced tool.
Spot on. I am always on the lookout for old Delta tools (or other brands) to fix up and use. My TS, Drill Press and Jointer are all over 30 years old but will outlive me. They are also very quality pieces, just not new and Sawstop kinda shiny. Set them up properly and I defy anyone to beat the cuts produced with newer 'cool' brands.
Quality cordless tools are amazing! I use mostly corded tools because I bought them cheap, used, they are of good quality, and frankly I don't use them enough to justify the cost of updating them to cordless. I'm also hoping to live 20 more years and I'm sure most of my corded tools will still be working in 20 years. I look at cordless tools as a consumable. It's just a price you pay for the ease of use and the efficiency that goes with it. John, as always you make good sense!
45 years ago my father built a drill press as he could not afford the two weeks wages to purchase one. Today I could buy one of similar quality but with multiple speed control on top for about two days work.
Well... There is some planned obsolescence happening in many industries (mostly smartphones)... And the idea is not new, came from the light bulb cartel that only ended during WWII. (I forgot the name of the cartel.) The idea is to use worse materials in some key parts, so it's going to be defective in up to X time. But it's not absolutely precise, of course. But, still... Even with this it's still worth buying new stuff because of the advances in technology. The exception are things that didn't change at all, like planes (like the old Stanleys). Anyway, stay safe there with your family, John! 🖖😊
I'm a computer programmer and spend a lot of time typing. I have become passionate about keyboards as a result. The original keyboards came in an all-metal housing with mechanical key switches. Then as time went on keyboards became just a piece of rubber sandwiched between two pieces of molded plastic. They felt mushy and cheap. The old-style keyboards have gained popularity again and now you can get keyboards with an all-metal housing and mechanical key switches but the old mechanical keyboards are still highly valued (IBM Model M). So when it comes to things like keyboards and computer mice - there definitely was a time where they built some really poor quality ones. They still do but at least there or more options for higher quality ones.
There is an actual specific origin of the term "planned obsolescence", and it absolutely was a thing. I don't think it is anymore (and I don't think it ever really has been in this specific context), but it definitely used to be. It was an explicit policy of US car manufacturers in the 50s and 60s. It was implemented mostly via ad campaigns about the value of having a new car instead of last year's model, supported by mostly-cosmetic changes being made for each new model year (so that everyone would immediately *know* that you're driving last-year's model).
Planned obsolescence is a engineered feature of the current age of Finite Element Analysis (FEA) They are able to predict based on normal usages the fatigue and ware of the product so that it breaks just after the warranty is over.
I have an older saw like that which is chrome-looking. More like a piece of art now. It still works but I would never use it regularly because it is way too heavy. I am not sure the age because it was my Dad's. I think it is from 1960. I love my cordless Dewalt Skill Saw. It is a great saw and my favorite tool for many tasks.
I think you are right about planned tool failure in general but I think there is one outlier - the iPhone. They purposely slow down old iPhones and other shady stuff. I think they are one of the exceptions where they are planning to make last year's model obsolete.
My grandfather was a DOT maintenance worker, I’m a truck driver. These two jobs have historically paid about the same. He probably had to work about 10 hours or more for his fancy electric skilsaw in the 70’s. I worked about 3.5 hours for a corded DeWalt (would’ve been less if I’d gotten the sale price). The DeWalt is in no way inferior. It is superior in almost every way.
I think a lot of it is that stuff is not made to be repaired. There was a time where if something broke it didn't mean you need to buy a new one. You fixed it yourself or you had it fixed by someone. That time is mostly gone now and stuff isn't really expected to be passed on to kids etc. Things are not made with the same quality of material so they just don't last.
This video struck a nerve with me. Seven or eight years back, my old Craftsman circular saw circa 1960s that I got from my dad gave up the ghost. Motor spun fine, but somehow the blade wouldn’t go. I was bummed because I loved that saw, but being in the middle of a project I couldn’t mess about with trying to fix it. I ran out to Lowes and bought an inexpensive Porter-Cable saw, for $70-$80. It still had a metal housing and although it worked well enough, it seemed really heavy and awkward. Whenever I used it I longed for my old Craftsman. Then about a year ago, I got out the Craftsman to see if I could figure out the problem. The funny thing is that the Craftsman that I thought of so fondly was actually heavier than my new Porter Cable and the ergonomics were not quite as good either. So yeah, I agree with John that you can buy better tools for cheaper than you used to be able to do.
In a way you kind answered your secondary question, with the old tool if the brushes wore out you could replace them, these days its becoming more difficult to do those little repairs, whether because new equipment is designed so that you can't do something as simple as replace brushes or the battery in your cell phone or because the manufacturer wont sell them. My idea of planned obsolescence isn't that a device will have a timer where by it stops after x years but that when it does break the only option is to buy new, that's the planned bit
@@Lanser1964 And I'm about the same age, so what? Assuming the same build quality, the brushless tool will last longer simply because you don't need the spare parts, brushes in this case. And that's John's point, the new stuff IS better.
Interesting conversation John. I bought a well known brand table saw, it has served well, a contractor colleague bought the same saw at the same time. His needed a new motor as he used his to the point of abuse. I researched the parts available, most were obsolete. I have tools that are much older that I can still get replacement parts. That manufacturer qualifies as doing "planned obsolescence". The parts are proprietary, fitting one model only. I still use that saw though the knowledge that while it actually looks pretty new still (I don't beat my tools into submission), I'll need to buy a new saw if major issues develop. The unfortunate thing is that the newer model, supposedly an upgrade and more expensive, is not as good a product, yes, got to use the new model. It all gets down to the brand and quality specified to the manufacturer building those tools.
@@fuzzy1dk think there is a law on that of some stuff. of course the markup can be insane. worked for a company that had no competition for 20 years so they raped at will. one of us asked the ceo why we charged 150.00 for a tube 8 inches long with 6 holes in it. answer; because we can. NDC still makes amazing products.
Good quality hand tools, either old or new, can really last a long time. Whether good or low quality, power tools have a lot of complex parts that can fail, and as you said, they will get superseded at some point.
I would like to add some things. 1. planned obsolescence is an interesting topic. Even determining estimation life span can be defined as part of it. But the reality seems to be different. In reality it is really hard to predict use and abuse these tools endure. And like youve said, the manufacturers depend on it. So, how do they do it? One of the main strategies is discontinued spare parts. Especially in electronics, you cant even buy certain components. They have lock on repairability. In this way they can ensure an obsolescence. Another and more common way is software. Yes, they can literally push a button and make your device useless, because they support the idea that you dont own the tools, you subscribe a service. If you are late on your payment, your electric car gets out of the fast charging grid, if you dont upgrade, your expensive speakers wont work anymore. Software easy to control, so it is more common and easier to find. 2. if i recall correctly the term is survivorship bias. We compare modern tools to the old tools that still work. Guess what, the tools that were cheap, that were not durable, that didnt last. An average man sees old tools still wokring and new tools having troubles. Of course they will think old tools rock, but in reality you dont get the average vintage tools, the comparison is always between new common tools and old durable ones that survived years, regardless of their prices. Yeah, they cheap out on materials, especially chinese ones, but they are absolutely more efficient and powerful than old ones. People forget how cables shocked, all metal housing without proper grounding. New safety standards wont even allow this today. So, if we are gonna compare, without having a tendency to feel nostalgic, we need to think about every aspects. I agree with you, modern tools are better, when all things are considered.
They don't make them like they used to. If anything, they have way more safeguards now than they did in the past. I have my fathers 1960's Craftsman contractor saw and it still works like a charm. Would a new saw be better, sure. But it still works. I think the only thing I would argue is corded vs. battery. Use the right tool for the job. I watched a video recently where a person used a cordless drill to do a ton of drilling and complained that the drill got almost too hot to hold. In this case a cord drill would've been better. Not specifically a corded drill from the 70's, just a corded drill. Know what your tools are designed for and don't expect them to do what they can't. Believe it or not, with that, they usually last longer. Thank you for the video, John.
You get alot more at the second hand market today then you did back then. Buying a 700 dollar tool for 20 dollars and it work the same as when it was new!
Agreed. Chainsaws are a perfect example as well. Heck, my Truck is a perfect example - granted the $$ is huge, but the truck (2019 - 1 ton) versus the truck I grew up with (1973 1 ton) ... you couldn't have convinced anyone on a bet then that you could have in a truck what you get now ... maps in the dashboard that move with you?! Whaaaaaaaa???? Real time tire pressure on the dash ? Ability to carry on a conversation with another person in the truck with you while on the highway? Say Whaaaaa? It's better today.
During one (of many) sleepless nights I remember contemplating 'built in failure dates' and came to exactly the same conclusion John. While it may well seem that things always fail just after the warranty has ended I came to the conclusion that it was a case of the manufacturers being good at working out just how long their kit would last rather than some little chip in there counting down to when to make it fail. I prefer vintage when it comes to hand tools (planes, hand saws and chisels) but that's mainly because I like the way they look and (certainly with hand saws) I can pick them up for pretty much nothing (£0.50 for the last one I bought) and I enjoy cleaning them up and getting them working again (vintage hand saws can be re-sharpened almost indefinitely).
@@IBuildItScrapBin - New rules just came into effect in UK today. Manufacturers of white goods & TVs now have to have spares available for 10 years and make them available to consumers.
in 40 years the dewalt will be worth 2 bucks and the skillsaw 20, i have had at least 6 cordless drills since 1990 and 2 corded drills since 1973 and they still work fine. the weak link of course is the batteries.
Same thing with Phones & many laptops, the batteries are glued in & not easily user replaceable, so when the battery fails you are forced to buy a whole new device!
I dunno John, let’s leave out the cost, it gets very complicated with the now and then buying value of money and the likely earnings of the user now,and then. I can tell you that the quality of components has gone down, bearings and gears particularly, and I truly believe that power tools are not as well made as previously, they may well not be as sophisticated but they will last longer. I cannot include battery powered tools in this, they are too prone to end up working but without batteries being still available to run them. I sort of half agree with you overall, you can however buy a half decent corded tool for the price of a battery for a known brand tool.
So you have bought the highest quality of each? Or did you compromise and buy the best one you could afford? Because that's exactly what nearly everyone does, unless they have no regard for money at all. When I buy the cameras I use to make videos, I look for the one that is the highest quality at a price that I can justify spending. There are way more expensive cameras that I'd love to have, but I have to settle because I simply can't afford them. Therefore, the only relevant factor is the cost and how much I'm willing to pay.
I was so upset when i had to replace my bigger brad nailer that shoots 2" nails. It cost a small fortune which I expected but the damn thing is mostly plastic. I needed it that day so i bought it against my better judgment. I put a 2" brad 1" deep into my left index finger that day. It reminds me of home depot a little. Home depot will introduce a product and keep it for a year, then stop selling it for a few months until a very similar product appears on the shelf branded hdx (home depots own Chinese knockoff brand). The corporation made the choice not the consumer, that's why people aren't buying these quality products anymore
I buy miscellaneous tool lots at auction, in many cases I'm buying unseen and I have to sort through it after purchase. When it comes to portable power tools, you are completely spot on. Anything that isn't the current generation battery technology, or is more than 20 years old, I don't even mess with at all. It gets donated straight to Goodwill or Habitat for Humanity, or tossed in a dumpster. Stationary power tools can be hit or miss, but generally are winners, or at least can be sold for their scrap weight lol. Hand tools is where I see a visible decline, at least in the mass market. Make no mistake though, after digging through countless piles, there are tons of garbage hand tools going back to before either of us were born. What is different IMO, is that most big box store hand tools are somewhere between kinda crappy to just passable. Whereas back in the day, grandpa Joe could head over to Sears or any corner hardware store and pick up some real quality stuff. The quality hand tools are still being manufactured, but they have to be purchased from specialty retailers or supply houses, heavy online players, etc. In the end, the market usually sorts itself out. Except of course when the government has it's finger on the scale, but I digress.
I have the (unverified) impression that a lot of manufacturers used to have roughly 3 models (at different price points) while they have a lot more now (even when ignoring some tools are sold under different brand names) with the extra models often filling in the lower half part of the price range. Shopping in the mid price range today (ideal for hobbyists: it’s probably not crap but way cheaper than a pro tool) will probably get you a tool that’s better compared to the tool at the same price point in the previous era, but the quality difference with a pro tool may be bigger now. As you said,: you usually get what you pay for but there seems to be a lot more choice now.
One thing I've noticed is that if you buy a tool from a big box store, typically sold in a kit with other tools as a special deal, the tool doesn't last as long as the same model bought from a specialty tool store. I've heard it said that the tool manufacturers will make runs of tools specifically for the big box market and lower the quality to meet the lower price point.
I’m using a old cast (60 year) iron table saw that will probably run long time more but the rip fence was really bad, inadequate miter gauge, and underpowered all have been replaced. It was very expensive when new in adjusted dollars I could definitely buy a top quality new table saw. As for cordless tools they are short lived convenience tools.
One point you touched is the power supply platform. Today's battery operated tools can't last years, even if the tool won't fail , battery will, hence if I not have to I avoid buying cordless and buy corded, like in circular saw.
I think to draw a sweeping conclusion of which products are better, old or new, is impossible. They must be compared case by case. I think the finding will be newer products are more functional, cheaper to make and buy, lighter, and more likely to have as many plastic components as feasible. Older products may be less functional, more primitive, expensive to make and buy, heavier, and more likely to be made of metal, wood, glass. Which is better is case by case and up to the buyer and their intended use.
It's certainly true of lots of things like appliances. Microwaves are a good example. My parents bought a microwave back in the late 80's/early 90's that remains one of the best microwaves I've ever used. Still runs great. It's hard to get one that lasts even a decade at this point. Even things like toasters are just total pieces of shit these days. I don't think the idea is for them to be pieces of shit, but it's more just a product of the state of manufacturing and the economy.
With all due respect, manufacturers "do" indeed plan for a thing to fail at a certain time. Electronics are very temperature sensitive and are the easiest to do this with, but mechanical things can easily cause troubles as well. Bearings in particular are a big thing. Here are a couple of stories from personal experience: Friend's window unit A/C started making a horrible loud noise every time it came on. I took it apart and found out that the bearings on the fan motor were shot. Since they are the very common "skateboard bearing" size (seriously, those things are _everywhere_ ) that a/c got, well, skateboard bearings put back in. They are of a different kind (ceramic VS original steel) and according to the friend are way quieter than the original ever were. Sure, they are a bit more expensive, but i'm sure if that unit was $10 more because of that no-one would even notice. Another story is tensioner pullies on car engines. After yet another one went bad i decided to open up the bearing and see what went wrong. Popped the seals off and found no lube and signs of overheating. Got another one, opened up the bearings in it and found hardly any grease in it as well! Ended up re-packing it with grease before installing it. Again, a few cents for more/better grease added to the price would not have made a difference in something that's already $40 or so. Same applies to cars in general and contrasts well with the "It was designed properly from the factory, why do i want to replace it with an aftermarket part?" crowd. Yes, it was designed by engineers at first, then re-designed by the marketing department and most likely made by the lowest bidder. Then again, based on that outro clip, maybe i took this video too seriously? :)
Definition of anecdotal evidence: - evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them "His conclusions are not supported by data; they are based only on anecdotal evidence."
My Dad was almost 40 yrs older than me. The tools he had compared to the tools I have now are night and day. The only reason I would want any of his tools would be for nostalgia but to use them all the time, no thanks. I actually have some needle nose plyers and side cutters that were his from the mid to late 50's that I do use quite a bit.
That all metal saw looks like it could fall off a roof and still function. Modern tools with their delicate pcb boards and plastic housings, I'm not so sure.
I build guitars in my spare time, and the same rhetoric is very well alive in forums and FB groups. This is where a 1959 Gibson Les Paul that could be purchased new for 200-300 $ back then, now commands 6 figure price tags. People assign mojo and spiritual construction along with pixie dust to justify the money they just wasted. You can purchase in today's 300 dollars worth just as much real value and playability.
Well, in the case of technology, John's logic is sound. In the case of guitars, however, the argument doesn't really hold, because the wood that was available several decades ago generally isn't any longer, for a variety of reasons.
@@TimGallant but in the case of electric guitars, the wood species, age and density makes little to no difference in the tone you get from the pickups. But I agree, woods matter much more for acoustic guitars.
I am contractor and I have second set of cordless circular saw, jigsaw and multi tool because motor has gone on each. To replace motor is 70% of price. They only last no more than 3 years unfortunately 🤷♂️
For Me John, if a tool is over 30 years old and is still working, then it is a much better tool than today tool, BUT as you say tools must have a shelf/use life otherwise tools will not be made. A cheap Asian tool today is mostly a 1 hit wonder, if it lasts longer it was worth buying. So long as the price is right that is
_Mostly_ there's no such thing as planned obsolescence. Veritasium's video on the lightbulb conspiracy is an interesting watch though, showing a well documented case of genuine planned obsolescence.
Plastic tools are worst for working long hours. I've literally melted my drill's gearbox housing (because the bearing surfaces were just hardened metal bushings) by doing that.
They don't make them like they used to, and mostly that's a good thing. However, they still sell a ton of worm drive saws that are improved versions of a saw designed almost 100 years ago. Magnesium and plastic have lowered the weight some, but they are still tanks. Yet they still own the jobsites. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I'm speaking more of retail grade tools, not tools that a professional would use. Framers and concrete form guys are barbarians and the saw needs to be bulletproof to take the abuse those guys give it :)
Generally what happens is this: An engineer has an Idea and designs the first production run of a tools. Kind of expensive but overdesigned so it lasts a long time. The bean counters go to the engineer and say, "Yah gota make it cheaper". So the engineer spends more time on the design and changes out post and plate to castings, the next design change goes from metal castings to plastic castings (each evolution brings in more and more less expensive materials) also the manufacturing company decides to move the assembly of the tool to a country that has less labor costs (can you spell China?) If you look at the original Workmate as compared to one you can purchase today you will see how making it less expensive has resulted in a tool that is considerably of lower quality. My Grandfather was a carpenter and I inherited his Craftsman circular saw. Just as John has described in the video the thing was heavy, under powered, and it screamed like a banshee. It was not long before I sold it at a garage sale for $10.00. Great video John as always, thumbs up.
My experience is that some one in Marketing determines what they can sell to what class of customer. They have in mind a price that the customer will pay. From there Engineering is tasked to design something that cal be manufactured at some fraction of the selling price. It takes a lot of interaction among Engineering, Manufacturing, and the supply chain to achieve that cost point. Sometimes creative compromises need to be made. Sometimes very creative designs have to be made.
Ah,ah,ah , now you're talking about my beginning years. Ball bearing or sleeve bearing, that was the issue. Oh what memories what memories. Those were the days my friend we thought they'd never end we'd sing and dance forever and a day,. I mean saw.
The only difference with todays tools and tools from 100 years ago is the plastic. Plastic Breaks down in 75 years there will be no plastic nostalgia tools, only the metal parts. NASA has this problem with all its Apollo moon stuff, its all breaking down and vanishing. So even thought tools today are better, more efficient, some of the older tools will still be here. Many of the plastic tools will only be found in lost photos... There aren't even any print catalogs of tools anymore.... But good thing about old stuff is if your starting out theres alot of high quality old tech to use out there. Even if its heavy and corded lol. Good video..
I had to laugh to myself when you said manufacturers don't have kill switches for their products. Apple does, as well as many other electronic devices. Its easy to hate on Apple for their huge disregard for their customers.
AVE has a vid where a pump failed early, due to the maker replacing a stainless pin with a mild steel one... that rusted slowly enough to make it thru the warranty period.
Wow... I do not disagree with your point, but I would never compare hand held tools of the past to that of today's... lol. I was speaking more about the larger purchases and their cost vs what you get for the same amount of money. Table saws, drill presses, band saws, if you compare the same class tools built today to those built in the 1970's, (even with inflation adjustments) then you will see just how far that same amount of money will go... I can find a used tool for much less than that of a newer less durable tool of today, I dare not say a band saw or table saw bought today will outlast the same class tool from the 70's. In many cases the newer tools will not allow you to shop for replacement parts outside their own purpose built replacement parts. I see 1970's tools still being sold, I have yet to see anything from 2000 and beyond, its just not worth buying over what you can find new!
$3500 would buy you one heck of a band saw today, guy. If the tool was $500 back then, that's $3500 today in equivalent value. It has nothing to do with the size or "class" of the tool. Fact is you can buy a $500 band saw today that it wasn't possible to have back then because they couldn't manufacture it efficiently enough. It's not in the same "class" as the one you'd pay $500 for back then, obviously, but it's still a band saw that a "craftsman" can use. You said: "Manufacturing has failed the craftsman overall." which is just nonsense.
Have to agree with John, also can't agree that a known manufacturer will let you down. I have a jigsaw roughly 20 years old a Bosch. At that time and still today Bosch sells tools here in Europe in green color ( quality ” hobby ” tools) and ( sometimes) ”the same looking” tools in blue ( professional grade). Last year I replaced the brushes from my ’’hobby” tool for the 2the time. Just go to the Bosch site, explosion view click the part, 2 days or somewhat later pick it up at a dealer. The saw is very well used, the bearings are seated in the plastic housing and are also replaced once. Could you expect that from ” cheap ”brand like a 25 dollar saw, of course not and you wouldn't want that to. Also like John says the equivalent from that 25 dollar saw didn't exist back then. In my opinion also that 25 dollar saw has value, not for you and me, but maybe a person that cuts a plank 1 or twice a year for let us say for in his garden or something. Problem is that this tool is sometimes advertised as professional or something like that where people's minds should know better. You get what you pay for is not always true but a lot of times it is. Sorry for the long reply, but not all manufacturer are crooks and a well known manufacturer like Bosch in this case ( no I am not pro Bosch per se) or Metabo , Hitachi, Hilti, Fein, Makita, Festool, etc. will provide you with parts and support IMHO
@@rafvdp6391 Often the product's function IS better, however, the amount of time in which it will perform that function is limited by the components that it is made from. Let's take an LED light bulb for instance, has anyone gotten 7 years out of one yet? I haven't, and I do not think that it is because the LED fails, the electronics failed due to cheaper components, the same is a weak point for any power tool, the trigger switch is linked to components that are either of poor quality or are just not rated for the task at hand. Poor thermal bleeding, insufficiently adequate surge protection, and circuits that cannot handle loads which are commonly used within the design, are all contributing factors to failures which commonly lead to a tool being fried long before its physical life is done, as AvE would put it, the tool is not "Scuchum"...
There's nothing new about using cheaper components. It's been happening since products have been available to buy and it's absurd to think otherwise. All of this shows the near complete lack of gratitude for what's available (available means YOU have the choice) today. People walk around with super computers in the palm of their hand, stuff of science fiction 30 years ago, and find things to complain about with that. Sit back in the kind of luxury that the wealthiest kings 200 years ago didn't have or couldn't even imagine and still find things to moan about.
@@chrisgriffith1573 can only agree partially Chris , it's probably true for really cheap tools ( to stay with the subject) but I disagree for the known ” respectable ” brands. I understand what you mean with the electronics like for example TV ’s. Then again with everything changing at a fast pace, you really don't wanna own a 20 or 30 year old TV or a fridge ( it's a power consumer compared to a new one) . The LED probably paid itself 2 back in electrical bills so ok it last less long, you still gain IMHO. The scoocum thing is a different thing al together, yes i watched AVE a long time ago ( not anymore) and remember an episode something like ” the dirty truth in the festool”. He claimed FESTOOL ts55 was horrible made and has to fail sooner or later and yet a whole lot of first generation ts55 out there used by professionals still to this day all day. And yes if you let that festool fall from a bench compared to the skillsaw John has( all metal ), ok it most likely will give up first, but I know what I want to hold all day long ( weight wise). I guess it's depends how you look at the subject. Thanks for the reply, have a good weekend.
Carpenters in 1970 were stronger than today's carpenters. They worked Sun up to Sun down 7 days a week. We use guides and track saws and my Father who used vintage saws never needed a guide to rip down sheets of plywood. He lined up the cut and made it straight as any track saw today... the weight of the saw was a factor for getting straight cuts or maybe he was just that good. I worked with him for 5 years building houses in the late 80s and not 1 time did he ever need a guide to cut anything.
Me questioning who said manufacturers put timers on their tools for when they die but to be honest I don't think planed obsolescence is really a thing when it comes to power tools but if you're looking at maybe things that require a small engines it's very obvious especially when you have brigs and stratton saying that you don't have to change the oil on their engines anymore which is very blatant planned obsolescence
This logic doesn't hold for all things. The most salient example that comes to mind is a clothes washer. A Maytag Deluxe, one of the best machines ever made, easily lasted 20-30 years or more. You still see them for sale all the time, and they get snapped up. Todays machines are goners in less than 10 years, sometimes not even close to that. They aren't washing clothes any better.
IMO the term "planned obsolescence" is thrown around too much. I don't think today's tools are intentionally built to fail. I think they're built cheap to sell cheap but still make some money. There are still some tools out there that will last, they're just expensive.
I would ask you to watch a veritasium video on light bulbs and planned obsolesce and still say that manufacturers cant plan the lifespan of their products,
And I watched it. Now I remember why I unsubscribed from his channel: he's a full blown communist. Any cartel that forms to set the lifespan of a lightbulb (which cost the average consumer literally pennies per year in replacement cost at the time, so wow, such a big deal!) is doomed to failure if the free market is allowed to operate. Competition soon killed it, like it does with every other market domination. But they (the commies or "useful idiots" as the soviets called them) hold up ultra rare instances like this as "proof" for the rule and use that to justify government meddling in a market that should be left along. That video was pure leftist propaganda and the biggest shame is that 7+ million people watched that crap. Hopefully a few of them have the intelligence to think for themselves.
@@IBuildItScrapBin I know he has quite communistic views, but my point is that manufactures have, and do, limit the lifespan of whatever they make. No one thinks planned obsolescence as it is today has the manufacturers setting exact usage hours or a button that disables everything made in a specific year. Planned obsolesces is manufactures using cheaper, non-replaceable components on what they sell, such as cheap triggers that are housed in drills that can not be non-destructively opened to replace and break in just a few years of light use even in inexpensive tools. I think we should be able to repair our tools, phones, cars, or anything without needing to send it to the manufacturer because 3rd party repair shops either aren't allowed to or can't get the parts to fix them (especially when it comes to vehicles). This is planned obsolescence. One last thing I want to add is that "better" is a subjective term. Some people may prefer tools that are high quality and will last a lifetime, while others may want the convenience of a cordless tool, lighter material, less upfront expense, and is willing to sacrifice robust construction and reparability. Yes, technology will continue to improve and new features and gimmicks will be used to convince people to buy new tools. I don't think that people should have to buy new tools every few years because cheap tools stop working and can't be fixed, only replaced. I know you can still buy quality, expensive tools, I just don't like HOW cheap and poorly made a lot of the cheap tools are.
My point was that what most of the herd are calling planned obsolescence is a product of their own cheapness. They want the best deal and when it doesn't last forever they think they've been ripped off. They are that stupid. If they want better quality products that are reliable and more serviceable, they have to pay more for them. And if YOU know the tools are too poorly made, don't buy them - simple.
@@IBuildItScrapBin Commies, lol. The argument against the "lightbulb conspiracy" is 1000 hours was the performance sweet spot the cartel settled on. Bulbs are fungible, they all had the same tech. A brighter bulb has a thinner filament, so fails early. Long life bulbs have thick filaments, but are dim. The cartel essentially established a standard for what was new technology at that time. It's playing out again, cheap LED lamps have fewer chips, overdrive them and so fail early, ie thin filaments. The "Dubai lamps" as made famous by "Big Clive" underdrive them, dimmer but long life, ie thicker filament. (Buy cheap & brighter than you need, then mod them to be dimmer and so last longer)
Comon, obviously it is a mixed bag (like everything) and it really depends on the time you compare to. Cars, for example, seem to be failing more now and sooner than they were 20 years ago. But 1980s cars were also garbage. Many things are now designed to not be easily repaired, so they don't last as long, but the up-front cost is cheaper and they are able to add more features using eg. microcontrollers without adding cost by doing so. Is it worth it? Well, that really depends doesn't it. I personally use a lot of old stuff (to me, often 1990s stuff). Another good reason is to avoid the modern fad of connecting everything to the Internet and requiring a subscription or permission from the mothership to allow basic functionality. Surely requiring a monthly fee makes a product "objectively worse" than one which does not require a fee, in that respect.
Since the answer is obvious, I almost didn't watch this video. Older/vintage tools are NOT better. Motors, designs, technology, blades, accuracy, and reliability have all improved. People point to the isolated surviving older tools, discounting the far greater number of older tools that didn't survive.
There is almost no direct comparison- the features that people valued back then are not the same as now, heck, some of what people by tools for now people couldn't even imagine back then. There are safety features now that some wouldn't use the tool without and others find aggravating and would disable if they have the opportunity. I think as tools get larger and heavier (think table saws and bigger, machining tools...) there has been less improvement in the design, and for example my 1960 J-head Bridgeport mill is as good or better than what you could get till they stopped making them or as you can get today. OTOH, the business that would rely on that Bridgeport might be buying a CNC Tormach or Haas now. For my use my "old iron" Bridgeport or 60's/early 70's vintage Craftsman tablesaw is better and more durable then a comparable modern machine (I contrast them to things like my modern Grizzly lathe, which just doesn't have the bulk and heavy dutyness that my old iron has), but the reality is that it's just different, it's an apples to oranges comparison.
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Fact is, almost everything is better today than it was 50 years ago, but many people think the exact opposite is true. The tools that were made 50 years ago were more expensive in comparison with what's available today when you take into account the reduction in the buying power of our money. Like everything else that fills a need and can be effectively mass produced, the cost has actually gone down.
With regard to quality and the notion of "planned obsolescence", you typically get what you pay for and it lasts as long as it was designed to last, given the cost to make it. Most retail products have to hit a manufacturing cost that is around 20% of the final selling price to make it profitable to produce.
So when you see a cordless drill kit that retails for $400, the manufacturer typically has that complete, packaged and out the door for around $80 to make it worth selling.
Products just don't appear out of thin air - people make them and get paid. And people make the raw materials that make the products and they get paid.
So it's truly remarkable that we can have these sophisticated tools available at such low cost, yet so many don't seem to appreciate it.
The best thing about the "good old days" is the good old days are gone. And good riddance.
In the good old days, the companies were price conscience also. It was just they used the raw materials that they knew about at the time. In the 70s, if they had the plastic and electronic technology as today they would use it. They make top of the line makitas today and lower grade makita kits, it's what the person is willing to pay
near slave labor a factor that can't be ignored
@@victorhopper6774 where do you think that's happening?
And slavery is like pregnant - it's an all or nothing thing. Either you are a slave or you are not. If you are working voluntarily and getting paid, you aren't a slave.
@@IBuildItScrapBin some how i don't think they had a choice when they 20 years ago making 50 cents an hour. and now they are making a buck fifty. i remember a article in the detroit free press around 1990 talking about 50 or so employees there getting executed for making bad refrigerators . and suicide nets in their living quarters. who are you kidding? sure millions of them working for a nickel on the dollar because they want to.
Nostalgia back then was so much better than nostalgia now
Nostalgia back then was much heavier than modern nostalgia
Nostalgia isn’t what it used to be.
People also fail to remember survivorship bias. There were plenty of poorly made tools in the 1970s and before, I'd imagine that the ratio of "well-built" and "garbage" tools that existed in 1970, or before, is probably the same ratio today.
I guess my father was a smart investor.
As a contractor I buy DeWalt tools and not expensive Festool ones because I know I'll neglect it and I'm comfortable with that, at the end of a long day it'll get thrown in the Van and not gently packed into a box, it'll never get any maintenance, it'll be used in the rain, it'll get dropped. It'll do a respectable job and last 2 years and for the price I accept it'll need to be replaced. It's earned its money and I'm happy with that. The vintage tools in immaculate condition that people buy now and fawn over how well it still works is likely because it was never used for any real work when it was originally purchased.
Festool like Mercedes is overengineered. Thats why Toyota is much more reliable.
I've read through a lot of my granddads old Popular Mechanics from the 60's and the price on tools in those were similar to now, so with inflation probably close to 10x. And there was lots of build your own tool projects and tools that were powered by a drill to save the price of a motor
John, FYI, I was adding 1500 sq ft to my house in 1978. The Craftsman skill saw I had died. My father-in-law ran a family
building supply. My wife went to get me a new saw. I had a choice of the last metal housing saw he had or a new plastic
housing saw he had just go in. This was in 1978, I chose the metal housing. I used it to put the rest of the addition on to my
house. It lasted me 15 years and the drive gear broke. Skill informed me that they did not keep parts for my saw past ten
years. My wife went to the library, no computer, and got the address for Emerson Electric, the parent company of Skill.
I boxed it up and sent it to the CEO of Emerson Electric. The Next week I got a letter explaining the same BS about how long
they kept parts for my saw. BUT then they said not to worry, they were sending me a new saw. Two days later I had a new
saw in the mail. I am still using that saw today. Sorry for the lengthy comment, I feel my story goes well with your video. I
like the fact that you don't mind telling it like it is. Most folks don't have the grit for the truth anymore, it might not be
politically correct. I forgot to tell you I paid $105.00, his cost. He sold it retail for $145.00.
I have an ancient Sears Craftsman handheld belt sander that I use all the time (you might even say it's the only one I own!)
I love it. It has some great features:
-Weighs a ton
-Minimal ergonomics
-Almost enough power
-Gets really hot after about 5 minutes of use (keeps you from getting too much done)
-The gorgeous cast baremetal body retains all of that heat
I totally agree new stuff is made to better tolerances etc and has more features that most of the old stuff
Planned obsolescence for consumer goods here is what they do. the example is a cheap electric lawn mower. They work out the average use of the average user over a three year life span. lets assume a 4 month lawn cutting season. 16 weeks, but they lawn cut every two weeks. so 8 weeks of use of 30 minutes use. thats 4 hours use a year. 12 hours use total. so lets use materials that will last 14-16 hours and offer it with a 3 year warranty. Thats why things like bearing housings are made of plastic... after x amount of hours use the plastic melts the shaft moves and the mower shakes itself to bits. It goes to recycling and the owner goes off and buys another one.
in the 50's and 60's at least in the UK the car industry also had planned obsolescence ... thats why cars rusted away with in a few years....the Rover company in the 60's designed a new car with a 12 year life span...they must have thought it would help sales of new ones and it probably did ...but once you had one why did you want another....Rover is no more....
I hear it all the time in my automotive repair business. "They don't make them like they used to!" That's for sure, today when your car reaches 100k miles, it needs new plugs. When I was a kid, cars with 100k miles needed a new engine.
MTBF, Mean Time Before Failure is something that is often listed in products specifications as the basis for warranty durations. Manufacturers know the life span of what they build very accurately
MTBF (mean time between failure) is based on historical data - how long tools, either in laboratory testing or real world use, have lasted. Since there are so many variables (between users, materials, applications, etc), it is not a very accurate gauge for any one particular tool. You might use that tool (push harder, etc) very differently than I might.
I once saw where a Black & Decker drill from the 70's had an estimated life of 10 hours.
It was targeted at homeowners who'd use it twice a year to hang pictures or something. I mean fair enough, but still. I doubt many of those still exist.
very true the new stuff is so much better to use. but i think what a lot of people are talking about when they think it’s not built like it used to be is longevity. my radial arm saw from the 70s is a bitch to keep setup but it’s a joy to use and will be working for 100 more years over built the the extreme with quality metal
I have a Bosch hammer drill I bought ~40 years ago. That little drill has done so much work and suffered so much abuse. It has been used in the rain, dropped from ladders. Many times it has got so hot I couldn't hold it.
It is like "grandpa's axe" - it has had many sets of bearings and brushes, and the trigger switch has been disassembled and cleaned a few times (but not replaced).
Despite me best efforts, that little thing (with repairs) just keeps plugging on.
I am not saying it is "better" in any way, just impressed with how it's "bones" are basically solid - and recognising that a less stubborn individual would have tossed it in the trash years ago...
I am building John's belt and disc sander using his plans. If it breaks I can rebuild it or rebuild the part. Hope to be finished this weekend, it's a fun build.
I have an engineer friend that works for an equipment manufacturer. They have a product that needs to meet specific criteria and has to last for a specific time frame. They then assemble parts and stress test a prototype to determine a good estimate for it's life span. They then beef up parts or swap in cheaper parts until the whole machine is designed to all last for it's given life time. I think this is where the whole "planned obsolescence" comes from. The trouble comes from when a user buys a good and expects it to last considerably longer than it's designed lifespan. Most products are designed and built for business or commercial use and there are generally accepted depreciation curves. This gives the equipment manufacturer a good idea of the lifespan they need to design to, while providing a cost effective product.
That's called "value engineering".
In manufacturing design, we get input from the sales and marketing teams, based on what customers are asking for and what they think consumers will buy (and of coarse they want the world when it comes to features and benefits but they don't want to pay for it). When we tell them what it would cost to produce what they are asking for, they tell us they could never sell the product for that price. So we always end up designing the product to meet a price point, which usually means less features and causes production to go off-shore because most products can't be made in America at a low enough cost. Products aren't specifically designed for "planned obsolescence", but when new models are always coming out with new features, the consumer usually ditches the older product in order to get the newer features, and sometimes we offer trade-in programs to facilitate the upgrade at a lower cost to the consumer.
That saw in the 70s would last maybe a couple years if you were on a framing crew, probably the same as a wormdrive skil in the 90s, guys are rough on them. I'm sure that plastic Dewalt would do the same, but the improvements in the weight and bevel Guages and portability are game changers today.
Old tools do last longer!! I have a 61/2 Skill saw that I bought in 1973 when I got out of the Navy. It still runs great, but have had to replace the brushes. I have gone through 3 Kobalt saws of the same size in the last 10 yrs...
I've used those type of saw forever. I'm 65 now. The first one I got for $5 and put a cord on it. I think I still have. The one I use today was new in 2004. Craftsman 3.25 hp. It's the most expensive one I've bought, on sale I think $59. The other 2 I've had in the past I blew the gears out cutting metal with them. I have a cheap Skil throwaway $29/$39 also. I do have a collection of drills that have had battery pack upgrades to lipo battery packs. One thing about "old tools" they already know how to do their job, you just have to do your part. Thanks for the videos!
Im still using my 3 Milwaukee circular saws from the 70s. 2 trigger 6 1/2" and an 8 1/4" that rips hard maple like butter. Weight is a good thing. More stable / better results. I have almost every brand of tools. No on company does everything best.
I am actually surprised you have not taken the motor out of the skilsaw to use in something else.
1:50 Sonos did just that with their wireless audio system, just a few years ago. It might not be a thing for Tools (yet), but it's a very real thing in the electronics world. "Internet of Things" turned from a good idea into a real mess, because of such company behaviours.
theres a ton of battery manufacturers that do it
Actually, there are products with timers in them. For example there is an electric bicycle in one of our big stores that dies after 3 years. It says the battery is empty and refuses to charge. But if you open up the battery casing and reset the BMS chip, the timer resets and the battery charges as normal again...
And if it was put there for safety reasons? That is the best explanation for such a device.
I'm talking about the widespread misconception that most manufactured items today are design to fail after a certain time, what's been labeled as "planned obsolescence", and not any fail-safe features a product like a rechargeable battery or a printer would have.
Yes it may be so, but the battery shows no sign of degradation for a long time after the reset. Too much of a safety margin imo.
Regarding the other stuff I'm with you. There is an expected life span on things, and there is the cost of the materials. It's a fine art in enginering stuff to have just the right amount of material thickness and so on to get the expected life out of it, (it probably will continue working for ages) but not _guaranteed_ for very much longer. Like your Skilsaw there. Way overengeered. Like you said, nobody wants to use it.
Dell laptop batteries do that. The safety argument is bogus, the BMS should shut the battery down if one cell gets out of spec, not kill it after X numbers of cycles.
I have a 10 year old Dell laptop with original battery that's still working fine.
@@IBuildItScrapBin It seemed to be only a few models, I have seen a few where it seemed to lock out the still good battery. They still lock you into using their 'official' power adapters though, hopefully 'USB Power Delivery' will kill all that crap off too. Not a Dell fan.
Thanks. Agree with you. I have some of my Dad’s portable power tools from when I was a farm boy. Used them all then, use my own tools now. Weight is one of the big reasons. Variable speed reversible on the drills seals the deal.
I think it depends on what we're talking about. I have two old Rockwell Delta drill presses from the early 50's. Aside from rewiring the plug and switch, the drill press is incredible! No plastics or thin, cheesy medal. Does it have the digital depth stop? No. Does it have automatic belt adjustment? No. Does it have a three knob handle? No. Do I care about any of those things? Absolutely not! I'll put these drill presses up against ANY drill press you can buy today and they'd do amazingly well! The runout is still within spec on one and the second one is just outside of spec. Perfectly acceptable for woodworking and most DIY shop needs. So I think it depends on the tools you are comparing and the needs of the user.
And probably next to no one that had a home workshop back then could afford those machines. So you can't make a one to one comparison between a production ready tool from the 1950's with a retail tool today and say the vintage one wins.
You need to compare them to modern production machines that are in the same price range adjusted for inflation. A $1000 tool back then is a $10,000 tool today.
It is planned in that they plan to stop production of replacement parts at a certain date. But I totally understand that manufacturers cannot possibly produce parts for many years to come. The aggravating part of that is that some manufacturers shut off parts replacements far too soon. They make a minor change to the device and immediately make the last model and its parts obsolete.
Well, pick a manufacturer that operates that way. If you can find one. And if you are willing to pay the difference.
Most people aren't and that's what has shaped the industry.
People seem to be confused about what I'm saying in this video. I'm saying it's not the manufacturer's fault that people are cheap. They are just giving them what they want. If they don't, someone else will.
@@IBuildItScrapBin Exactly, it's a matter of bottom-line along with advancement. But I would much rather have the tools of today than yesteryear. With the exception of a small few of the hand tools.
Keep on ad keep up with the excellent videos.
Everything on the production line costs money. Storing parts in an organized warehouse so they can be sold for repair, that costs money. If manufacturers do that, they will have to charge more for the product, or they will have to charge a lot of money for the spares (and then you will accuse them of price-gouging). It just doesn't work for low-cost consumer products. But it can work, I guess, for industrial things like pumps and motors. Also, for very popular products, SOMEONE will step up and manufacture replacement parts if the market is big enough.
@@IBuildItScrapBin That's the source of the "cheap chinese shit". Your customers want a 20 cent drill bit? Ok, we skipped sharpening & hardening, enjoy.
There are actual planned obsolescence. The older printers for example. Some had counters in them that were programmed to stop the printer after a certain amount of prints and make you change the cartridge. No matter if it was needed or not. The cartridge often was still half full at that point.
HP put expiry dates on their cartridges, dead even before you get it out of the box.
Basically, I agree with your points.
There is one thing I'll point out that is different, back in the 1970s when that all-aluminum Skill saw was purchased there were only a few options, and all were basically within one or two price points.
Now when I go to a good tools store they will have a really really cheap, like sub $100 corded Chinese brand saw and a Festool cordless.
Back in the day, there were no cheap Chinese branded throw-away saws.
Yes, we are living in very good times now.
Cheers from Tokyo!
Stu
It's not just people imagining things though. Newer materials traded off sturdiness for cost. Especially injection-molded plastic and particleboard.
Nearly everyone that makes a comment does pretty much the same thing: they answer the rhetorical question asked in the title and completely ignore what was said in the video. Maybe you can explain to me why that is.
@@IBuildItScrapBin That's not what I was doing. In your video you suggest that it's "nostalgia" or people imagining things. That may be part of it but it's not JUST that. Cheaper materials were invented in the last 100 years.
I said that in the first minute of a 10 minute video. Did you stop watching there?
Because the point I'm making in the video is that it is the consumer that determines how good or bad a tool is when they buy the less expensive one. Therefore the reason why cheaper materials and processes were developed was to satisfy the buyer, not to save the manufacturer a few bucks.
@@IBuildItScrapBin I didn't mean to disagree with that point. Just advance the idea that cheapening over history is no illusion. Probably there is a ratchet effect because of the ratchet of technological development. Cheaper things when discovered are always adopted to some extent, because they increase quantity of production (satisfying buyers). Higher and higher quantities of lower and lower qualities create environment where average cheapness of things that people encounter goes cheaper over time.
I still see many woodworkers getting e.g. really old but high quality bandsaws, planers and table saws. They usually need a bit of work to get back to their original prime but e.g. cast iron tables and housings were made from solid and high quality materials. Today you get plastic, pressed steel and hardened aluminium instead, and often fairly poorly machined and finished from the factory. For handheld power tools new is probably always better than old - the weight issue as you mentioned is hard to get around - but for stationary tools, where weight is a bonus, new does often not compare to old unless you have all the money in the world to spend. An yes, old is usually much noisier, harder to find parts for, and with little or no dust collection, but you can still get a fantastic tool for a lot less than buying a similar 'cheap' Chinese produced tool.
Spot on. I am always on the lookout for old Delta tools (or other brands) to fix up and use. My TS, Drill Press and Jointer are all over 30 years old but will outlive me. They are also very quality pieces, just not new and Sawstop kinda shiny. Set them up properly and I defy anyone to beat the cuts produced with newer 'cool' brands.
The point is you'd never been able to afford those when new, even if made now. Of course labour is "free", so they're cheap to fix up.
Quality cordless tools are amazing! I use mostly corded tools because I bought them cheap, used, they are of good quality, and frankly I don't use them enough to justify the cost of updating them to cordless. I'm also hoping to live 20 more years and I'm sure most of my corded tools will still be working in 20 years. I look at cordless tools as a consumable. It's just a price you pay for the ease of use and the efficiency that goes with it. John, as always you make good sense!
45 years ago my father built a drill press as he could not afford the two weeks wages to purchase one. Today I could buy one of similar quality but with multiple speed control on top for about two days work.
We're getting too old to haul around those anchors anymore anyway John...lol.
Very very true, John! I have a more then 40 years old saw. I would never give it away. It works. Needs a new blade. But works. Regards from Germany.
Well... There is some planned obsolescence happening in many industries (mostly smartphones)... And the idea is not new, came from the light bulb cartel that only ended during WWII. (I forgot the name of the cartel.)
The idea is to use worse materials in some key parts, so it's going to be defective in up to X time. But it's not absolutely precise, of course.
But, still... Even with this it's still worth buying new stuff because of the advances in technology. The exception are things that didn't change at all, like planes (like the old Stanleys).
Anyway, stay safe there with your family, John! 🖖😊
I'm a computer programmer and spend a lot of time typing. I have become passionate about keyboards as a result. The original keyboards came in an all-metal housing with mechanical key switches. Then as time went on keyboards became just a piece of rubber sandwiched between two pieces of molded plastic. They felt mushy and cheap. The old-style keyboards have gained popularity again and now you can get keyboards with an all-metal housing and mechanical key switches but the old mechanical keyboards are still highly valued (IBM Model M). So when it comes to things like keyboards and computer mice - there definitely was a time where they built some really poor quality ones. They still do but at least there or more options for higher quality ones.
There is an actual specific origin of the term "planned obsolescence", and it absolutely was a thing. I don't think it is anymore (and I don't think it ever really has been in this specific context), but it definitely used to be.
It was an explicit policy of US car manufacturers in the 50s and 60s. It was implemented mostly via ad campaigns about the value of having a new car instead of last year's model, supported by mostly-cosmetic changes being made for each new model year (so that everyone would immediately *know* that you're driving last-year's model).
Planned obsolescence is a engineered feature of the current age of Finite Element Analysis (FEA) They are able to predict based on normal usages the fatigue and ware of the product so that it breaks just after the warranty is over.
I have an older saw like that which is chrome-looking. More like a piece of art now. It still works but I would never use it regularly because it is way too heavy. I am not sure the age because it was my Dad's. I think it is from 1960. I love my cordless Dewalt Skill Saw. It is a great saw and my favorite tool for many tasks.
I think you are right about planned tool failure in general but I think there is one outlier - the iPhone. They purposely slow down old iPhones and other shady stuff. I think they are one of the exceptions where they are planning to make last year's model obsolete.
My grandfather was a DOT maintenance worker, I’m a truck driver. These two jobs have historically paid about the same. He probably had to work about 10 hours or more for his fancy electric skilsaw in the 70’s. I worked about 3.5 hours for a corded DeWalt (would’ve been less if I’d gotten the sale price). The DeWalt is in no way inferior. It is superior in almost every way.
I think a lot of it is that stuff is not made to be repaired. There was a time where if something broke it didn't mean you need to buy a new one. You fixed it yourself or you had it fixed by someone. That time is mostly gone now and stuff isn't really expected to be passed on to kids etc. Things are not made with the same quality of material so they just don't last.
Its amazing how often I agree with you John. People want cheap so they buy cheap and then bitch about it.
Bitching about cheap tools is free.
This video struck a nerve with me. Seven or eight years back, my old Craftsman circular saw circa 1960s that I got from my dad gave up the ghost. Motor spun fine, but somehow the blade wouldn’t go. I was bummed because I loved that saw, but being in the middle of a project I couldn’t mess about with trying to fix it. I ran out to Lowes and bought an inexpensive Porter-Cable saw, for $70-$80. It still had a metal housing and although it worked well enough, it seemed really heavy and awkward. Whenever I used it I longed for my old Craftsman. Then about a year ago, I got out the Craftsman to see if I could figure out the problem. The funny thing is that the Craftsman that I thought of so fondly was actually heavier than my new Porter Cable and the ergonomics were not quite as good either. So yeah, I agree with John that you can buy better tools for cheaper than you used to be able to do.
In a way you kind answered your secondary question, with the old tool if the brushes wore out you could replace them, these days its becoming more difficult to do those little repairs, whether because new equipment is designed so that you can't do something as simple as replace brushes or the battery in your cell phone or because the manufacturer wont sell them.
My idea of planned obsolescence isn't that a device will have a timer where by it stops after x years but that when it does break the only option is to buy new, that's the planned bit
Power tools don't have brushes any more, old timer.
@@j.f.christ8421 don't be so pedantic it was just an example based on the tools shown. Btw I am the same age as John
@@Lanser1964 And I'm about the same age, so what? Assuming the same build quality, the brushless tool will last longer simply because you don't need the spare parts, brushes in this case. And that's John's point, the new stuff IS better.
Interesting conversation John. I bought a well known brand table saw, it has served well, a contractor colleague bought the same saw at the same time. His needed a new motor as he used his to the point of abuse. I researched the parts available, most were obsolete. I have tools that are much older that I can still get replacement parts. That manufacturer qualifies as doing "planned obsolescence". The parts are proprietary, fitting one model only. I still use that saw though the knowledge that while it actually looks pretty new still (I don't beat my tools into submission), I'll need to buy a new saw if major issues develop. The unfortunate thing is that the newer model, supposedly an upgrade and more expensive, is not as good a product, yes, got to use the new model. It all gets down to the brand and quality specified to the manufacturer building those tools.
if no one repairs broken tools why should a manufacturer was time and effort of stocking and handling spare parts?
@@fuzzy1dk Warranty repairs
@@KipdoesStuff if the number is low enough just replace the tool
@@fuzzy1dk think there is a law on that of some stuff. of course the markup can be insane. worked for a company that had no competition for 20 years so they raped at will. one of us asked the ceo why we charged 150.00 for a tube 8 inches long with 6 holes in it. answer; because we can. NDC still makes amazing products.
I have one of those I use as a backup for my Ridgid Cordless.
Good quality hand tools, either old or new, can really last a long time. Whether good or low quality, power tools have a lot of complex parts that can fail, and as you said, they will get superseded at some point.
I would like to add some things.
1. planned obsolescence is an interesting topic. Even determining estimation life span can be defined as part of it. But the reality seems to be different. In reality it is really hard to predict use and abuse these tools endure. And like youve said, the manufacturers depend on it. So, how do they do it? One of the main strategies is discontinued spare parts. Especially in electronics, you cant even buy certain components. They have lock on repairability. In this way they can ensure an obsolescence. Another and more common way is software. Yes, they can literally push a button and make your device useless, because they support the idea that you dont own the tools, you subscribe a service. If you are late on your payment, your electric car gets out of the fast charging grid, if you dont upgrade, your expensive speakers wont work anymore. Software easy to control, so it is more common and easier to find.
2. if i recall correctly the term is survivorship bias. We compare modern tools to the old tools that still work. Guess what, the tools that were cheap, that were not durable, that didnt last. An average man sees old tools still wokring and new tools having troubles. Of course they will think old tools rock, but in reality you dont get the average vintage tools, the comparison is always between new common tools and old durable ones that survived years, regardless of their prices.
Yeah, they cheap out on materials, especially chinese ones, but they are absolutely more efficient and powerful than old ones. People forget how cables shocked, all metal housing without proper grounding. New safety standards wont even allow this today. So, if we are gonna compare, without having a tendency to feel nostalgic, we need to think about every aspects. I agree with you, modern tools are better, when all things are considered.
Thats awsome John, i have the same saw but i also have its orignal orange case . Ya its heavy but load too. Cheers man thanks
The comparison is like a flashlight to a table lamp.
They don't make them like they used to. If anything, they have way more safeguards now than they did in the past. I have my fathers 1960's Craftsman contractor saw and it still works like a charm. Would a new saw be better, sure. But it still works. I think the only thing I would argue is corded vs. battery. Use the right tool for the job. I watched a video recently where a person used a cordless drill to do a ton of drilling and complained that the drill got almost too hot to hold. In this case a cord drill would've been better. Not specifically a corded drill from the 70's, just a corded drill. Know what your tools are designed for and don't expect them to do what they can't. Believe it or not, with that, they usually last longer. Thank you for the video, John.
You get alot more at the second hand market today then you did back then. Buying a 700 dollar tool for 20 dollars and it work the same as when it was new!
Agreed.
Chainsaws are a perfect example as well.
Heck, my Truck is a perfect example - granted the $$ is huge, but the truck (2019 - 1 ton) versus the truck I grew up with (1973 1 ton) ... you couldn't have convinced anyone on a bet then that you could have in a truck what you get now ... maps in the dashboard that move with you?! Whaaaaaaaa???? Real time tire pressure on the dash ? Ability to carry on a conversation with another person in the truck with you while on the highway? Say Whaaaaa?
It's better today.
During one (of many) sleepless nights I remember contemplating 'built in failure dates' and came to exactly the same conclusion John. While it may well seem that things always fail just after the warranty has ended I came to the conclusion that it was a case of the manufacturers being good at working out just how long their kit would last rather than some little chip in there counting down to when to make it fail.
I prefer vintage when it comes to hand tools (planes, hand saws and chisels) but that's mainly because I like the way they look and (certainly with hand saws) I can pick them up for pretty much nothing (£0.50 for the last one I bought) and I enjoy cleaning them up and getting them working again (vintage hand saws can be re-sharpened almost indefinitely).
@@IBuildItScrapBin - New rules just came into effect in UK today. Manufacturers of white goods & TVs now have to have spares available for 10 years and make them available to consumers.
in 40 years the dewalt will be worth 2 bucks and the skillsaw 20, i have had at least 6 cordless drills since 1990 and 2 corded drills since 1973 and they still work fine. the weak link of course is the batteries.
Same thing with Phones & many laptops, the batteries are glued in & not easily user replaceable, so when the battery fails you are forced to buy a whole new device!
You know you can fix stuff, right? Buy a new battery or repack the old ones. Of course complaining is easier, so...
Hey John, The Skill saw is still good and earning it keep... as ballast, try that with the Dewalt in ten years LOL.
I dunno John, let’s leave out the cost, it gets very complicated with the now and then buying value of money and the likely earnings of the user now,and then. I can tell you that the quality of components has gone down, bearings and gears particularly, and I truly believe that power tools are not as well made as previously, they may well not be as sophisticated but they will last longer. I cannot include battery powered tools in this, they are too prone to end up working but without batteries being still available to run them. I sort of half agree with you overall, you can however buy a half decent corded tool for the price of a battery for a known brand tool.
Leave out the cost and how much you make the next time you buy a tool, then.
Cost and what you are willing to pay are the only relevant factors.
@@IBuildItScrapBin quality comes first, handleability second, cost third.
Give me an example of anything over $100 that you bought where cost wasn't the biggest deciding factor. And try not to lie to yourself this time.
@@IBuildItScrapBin my lathe, my circular saws.
So you have bought the highest quality of each? Or did you compromise and buy the best one you could afford?
Because that's exactly what nearly everyone does, unless they have no regard for money at all.
When I buy the cameras I use to make videos, I look for the one that is the highest quality at a price that I can justify spending. There are way more expensive cameras that I'd love to have, but I have to settle because I simply can't afford them.
Therefore, the only relevant factor is the cost and how much I'm willing to pay.
I was so upset when i had to replace my bigger brad nailer that shoots 2" nails. It cost a small fortune which I expected but the damn thing is mostly plastic. I needed it that day so i bought it against my better judgment. I put a 2" brad 1" deep into my left index finger that day. It reminds me of home depot a little. Home depot will introduce a product and keep it for a year, then stop selling it for a few months until a very similar product appears on the shelf branded hdx (home depots own Chinese knockoff brand). The corporation made the choice not the consumer, that's why people aren't buying these quality products anymore
I buy miscellaneous tool lots at auction, in many cases I'm buying unseen and I have to sort through it after purchase. When it comes to portable power tools, you are completely spot on. Anything that isn't the current generation battery technology, or is more than 20 years old, I don't even mess with at all. It gets donated straight to Goodwill or Habitat for Humanity, or tossed in a dumpster. Stationary power tools can be hit or miss, but generally are winners, or at least can be sold for their scrap weight lol.
Hand tools is where I see a visible decline, at least in the mass market. Make no mistake though, after digging through countless piles, there are tons of garbage hand tools going back to before either of us were born. What is different IMO, is that most big box store hand tools are somewhere between kinda crappy to just passable. Whereas back in the day, grandpa Joe could head over to Sears or any corner hardware store and pick up some real quality stuff. The quality hand tools are still being manufactured, but they have to be purchased from specialty retailers or supply houses, heavy online players, etc.
In the end, the market usually sorts itself out. Except of course when the government has it's finger on the scale, but I digress.
I have the (unverified) impression that a lot of manufacturers used to have roughly 3 models (at different price points) while they have a lot more now (even when ignoring some tools are sold under different brand names) with the extra models often filling in the lower half part of the price range. Shopping in the mid price range today (ideal for hobbyists: it’s probably not crap but way cheaper than a pro tool) will probably get you a tool that’s better compared to the tool at the same price point in the previous era, but the quality difference with a pro tool may be bigger now.
As you said,: you usually get what you pay for but there seems to be a lot more choice now.
One thing I've noticed is that if you buy a tool from a big box store, typically sold in a kit with other tools as a special deal, the tool doesn't last as long as the same model bought from a specialty tool store. I've heard it said that the tool manufacturers will make runs of tools specifically for the big box market and lower the quality to meet the lower price point.
Lightbulbs had planned obsolescence.
Apple got caught doing just that!
I’m using a old cast (60 year) iron table saw that will probably run long time more but the rip fence was really bad, inadequate miter gauge, and underpowered all have been replaced. It was very expensive when new in adjusted dollars I could definitely buy a top quality new table saw. As for cordless tools they are short lived convenience tools.
One point you touched is the power supply platform. Today's battery operated tools can't last years, even if the tool won't fail , battery will, hence if I not have to I avoid buying cordless and buy corded, like in circular saw.
I think to draw a sweeping conclusion of which products are better, old or new, is impossible. They must be compared case by case. I think the finding will be newer products are more functional, cheaper to make and buy, lighter, and more likely to have as many plastic components as feasible. Older products may be less functional, more primitive, expensive to make and buy, heavier, and more likely to be made of metal, wood, glass. Which is better is case by case and up to the buyer and their intended use.
That "old" saw would make a great table saw, for someone who doesn't have a table saw. Or have the money for a table saw.
It's certainly true of lots of things like appliances. Microwaves are a good example. My parents bought a microwave back in the late 80's/early 90's that remains one of the best microwaves I've ever used. Still runs great. It's hard to get one that lasts even a decade at this point. Even things like toasters are just total pieces of shit these days. I don't think the idea is for them to be pieces of shit, but it's more just a product of the state of manufacturing and the economy.
i "buried" my 26 year old washer last month and i am told my new one will not last 10 years. yes the motor in the old one still works so i saved it.
With all due respect, manufacturers "do" indeed plan for a thing to fail at a certain time. Electronics are very temperature sensitive and are the easiest to do this with, but mechanical things can easily cause troubles as well. Bearings in particular are a big thing. Here are a couple of stories from personal experience: Friend's window unit A/C started making a horrible loud noise every time it came on. I took it apart and found out that the bearings on the fan motor were shot. Since they are the very common "skateboard bearing" size (seriously, those things are _everywhere_ ) that a/c got, well, skateboard bearings put back in. They are of a different kind (ceramic VS original steel) and according to the friend are way quieter than the original ever were. Sure, they are a bit more expensive, but i'm sure if that unit was $10 more because of that no-one would even notice.
Another story is tensioner pullies on car engines. After yet another one went bad i decided to open up the bearing and see what went wrong. Popped the seals off and found no lube and signs of overheating. Got another one, opened up the bearings in it and found hardly any grease in it as well! Ended up re-packing it with grease before installing it. Again, a few cents for more/better grease added to the price would not have made a difference in something that's already $40 or so.
Same applies to cars in general and contrasts well with the "It was designed properly from the factory, why do i want to replace it with an aftermarket part?" crowd. Yes, it was designed by engineers at first, then re-designed by the marketing department and most likely made by the lowest bidder.
Then again, based on that outro clip, maybe i took this video too seriously? :)
Definition of anecdotal evidence:
- evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them
"His conclusions are not supported by data; they are based only on anecdotal evidence."
My Dad was almost 40 yrs older than me. The tools he had compared to the tools I have now are night and day. The only reason I would want any of his tools would be for nostalgia but to use them all the time, no thanks. I actually have some needle nose plyers and side cutters that were his from the mid to late 50's that I do use quite a bit.
Hard to get the hand tools wrong :)
That all metal saw looks like it could fall off a roof and still function. Modern tools with their delicate pcb boards and plastic housings, I'm not so sure.
Guardians using woodworking tools. That I would love to see
I build guitars in my spare time, and the same rhetoric is very well alive in forums and FB groups. This is where a 1959 Gibson Les Paul that could be purchased new for 200-300 $ back then, now commands 6 figure price tags. People assign mojo and spiritual construction along with pixie dust to justify the money they just wasted. You can purchase in today's 300 dollars worth just as much real value and playability.
Well, in the case of technology, John's logic is sound. In the case of guitars, however, the argument doesn't really hold, because the wood that was available several decades ago generally isn't any longer, for a variety of reasons.
@@TimGallant but in the case of electric guitars, the wood species, age and density makes little to no difference in the tone you get from the pickups. But I agree, woods matter much more for acoustic guitars.
I am contractor and I have second set of cordless circular saw, jigsaw and multi tool because motor has gone on each. To replace motor is 70% of price. They only last no more than 3 years unfortunately 🤷♂️
My Model 87 Skilsaw from around 1941 works fine.
For Me John, if a tool is over 30 years old and is still working, then it is a much better tool than today tool, BUT as you say tools must have a shelf/use life otherwise tools will not be made. A cheap Asian tool today is mostly a 1 hit wonder, if it lasts longer it was worth buying. So long as the price is right that is
_Mostly_ there's no such thing as planned obsolescence. Veritasium's video on the lightbulb conspiracy is an interesting watch though, showing a well documented case of genuine planned obsolescence.
Plastic tools are worst for working long hours. I've literally melted my drill's gearbox housing (because the bearing surfaces were just hardened metal bushings) by doing that.
survivorship bias, anyone, anyone, Bueller? (comment for algo)
For those of us who remember, $100 was a lot of money. Now, it's not. Our currency has lost a lot of value.
They don't make them like they used to, and mostly that's a good thing. However, they still sell a ton of worm drive saws that are improved versions of a saw designed almost 100 years ago. Magnesium and plastic have lowered the weight some, but they are still tanks. Yet they still own the jobsites. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I'm speaking more of retail grade tools, not tools that a professional would use.
Framers and concrete form guys are barbarians and the saw needs to be bulletproof to take the abuse those guys give it :)
@@IBuildItScrapBin th-cam.com/video/CwGrC0KicSo/w-d-xo.html :)
@@IBuildItScrapBin If you compare framers to barbarians, you'll offend the barbarians.
Generally what happens is this: An engineer has an Idea and designs the first production run of a tools. Kind of expensive but overdesigned so it lasts a long time. The bean counters go to the engineer and say, "Yah gota make it cheaper". So the engineer spends more time on the design and changes out post and plate to castings, the next design change goes from metal castings to plastic castings (each evolution brings in more and more less expensive materials) also the manufacturing company decides to move the assembly of the tool to a country that has less labor costs (can you spell China?) If you look at the original Workmate as compared to one you can purchase today you will see how making it less expensive has resulted in a tool that is considerably of lower quality. My Grandfather was a carpenter and I inherited his Craftsman circular saw. Just as John has described in the video the thing was heavy, under powered, and it screamed like a banshee. It was not long before I sold it at a garage sale for $10.00. Great video John as always, thumbs up.
My experience is that some one in Marketing determines what they can sell to what class of customer. They have in mind a price that the customer will pay. From there Engineering is tasked to design something that cal be manufactured at some fraction of the selling price. It takes a lot of interaction among Engineering, Manufacturing, and the supply chain to achieve that cost point. Sometimes creative compromises need to be made. Sometimes very creative designs have to be made.
Use a hand saw for the next month and the old circular saw will feel light
I’ve always said that the tool didn’t make the craftsman.
The craftsman made the tool!
Ah,ah,ah , now you're talking about my beginning years. Ball bearing or sleeve bearing, that was the issue.
Oh what memories what memories.
Those were the days my friend we thought they'd never end we'd sing and dance forever and a day,. I mean saw.
The only difference with todays tools and tools from 100 years ago is the plastic. Plastic Breaks down in 75 years there will be no plastic nostalgia tools, only the metal parts. NASA has this problem with all its Apollo moon stuff, its all breaking down and vanishing. So even thought tools today are better, more efficient, some of the older tools will still be here. Many of the plastic tools will only be found in lost photos... There aren't even any print catalogs of tools anymore.... But good thing about old stuff is if your starting out theres alot of high quality old tech to use out there. Even if its heavy and corded lol. Good video..
I had to laugh to myself when you said manufacturers don't have kill switches for their products. Apple does, as well as many other electronic devices. Its easy to hate on Apple for their huge disregard for their customers.
AVE has a vid where a pump failed early, due to the maker replacing a stainless pin with a mild steel one... that rusted slowly enough to make it thru the warranty period.
Wow... I do not disagree with your point, but I would never compare hand held tools of the past to that of today's... lol. I was speaking more about the larger purchases and their cost vs what you get for the same amount of money. Table saws, drill presses, band saws, if you compare the same class tools built today to those built in the 1970's, (even with inflation adjustments) then you will see just how far that same amount of money will go... I can find a used tool for much less than that of a newer less durable tool of today, I dare not say a band saw or table saw bought today will outlast the same class tool from the 70's. In many cases the newer tools will not allow you to shop for replacement parts outside their own purpose built replacement parts. I see 1970's tools still being sold, I have yet to see anything from 2000 and beyond, its just not worth buying over what you can find new!
$3500 would buy you one heck of a band saw today, guy. If the tool was $500 back then, that's $3500 today in equivalent value. It has nothing to do with the size or "class" of the tool.
Fact is you can buy a $500 band saw today that it wasn't possible to have back then because they couldn't manufacture it efficiently enough. It's not in the same "class" as the one you'd pay $500 for back then, obviously, but it's still a band saw that a "craftsman" can use.
You said: "Manufacturing has failed the craftsman overall." which is just nonsense.
Have to agree with John, also can't agree that a known manufacturer will let you down. I have a jigsaw roughly 20 years old a Bosch. At that time and still today Bosch sells tools here in Europe in green color ( quality ” hobby ” tools) and ( sometimes) ”the same looking” tools in blue ( professional grade). Last year I replaced the brushes from my ’’hobby” tool for the 2the time. Just go to the Bosch site, explosion view click the part, 2 days or somewhat later pick it up at a dealer. The saw is very well used, the bearings are seated in the plastic housing and are also replaced once. Could you expect that from ” cheap ”brand like a 25 dollar saw, of course not and you wouldn't want that to. Also like John says the equivalent from that 25 dollar saw didn't exist back then. In my opinion also that 25 dollar saw has value, not for you and me, but maybe a person that cuts a plank 1 or twice a year for let us say for in his garden or something. Problem is that this tool is sometimes advertised as professional or something like that where people's minds should know better. You get what you pay for is not always true but a lot of times it is. Sorry for the long reply, but not all manufacturer are crooks and a well known manufacturer like Bosch in this case ( no I am not pro Bosch per se) or Metabo , Hitachi, Hilti, Fein, Makita, Festool, etc. will provide you with parts and support IMHO
@@rafvdp6391 Often the product's function IS better, however, the amount of time in which it will perform that function is limited by the components that it is made from. Let's take an LED light bulb for instance, has anyone gotten 7 years out of one yet? I haven't, and I do not think that it is because the LED fails, the electronics failed due to cheaper components, the same is a weak point for any power tool, the trigger switch is linked to components that are either of poor quality or are just not rated for the task at hand. Poor thermal bleeding, insufficiently adequate surge protection, and circuits that cannot handle loads which are commonly used within the design, are all contributing factors to failures which commonly lead to a tool being fried long before its physical life is done, as AvE would put it, the tool is not "Scuchum"...
There's nothing new about using cheaper components. It's been happening since products have been available to buy and it's absurd to think otherwise.
All of this shows the near complete lack of gratitude for what's available (available means YOU have the choice) today. People walk around with super computers in the palm of their hand, stuff of science fiction 30 years ago, and find things to complain about with that. Sit back in the kind of luxury that the wealthiest kings 200 years ago didn't have or couldn't even imagine and still find things to moan about.
@@chrisgriffith1573 can only agree partially Chris , it's probably true for really cheap tools ( to stay with the subject) but I disagree for the known ” respectable ” brands. I understand what you mean with the electronics like for example TV ’s. Then again with everything changing at a fast pace, you really don't wanna own a 20 or 30 year old TV or a fridge ( it's a power consumer compared to a new one) . The LED probably paid itself 2 back in electrical bills so ok it last less long, you still gain IMHO. The scoocum thing is a different thing al together, yes i watched AVE a long time ago ( not anymore) and remember an episode something like ” the dirty truth in the festool”.
He claimed FESTOOL ts55 was horrible made and has to fail sooner or later and yet a whole lot of first generation ts55 out there used by professionals still to this day all day.
And yes if you let that festool fall from a bench compared to the skillsaw John has( all metal ), ok it most likely will give up first, but I know what I want to hold all day long ( weight wise). I guess it's depends how you look at the subject. Thanks for the reply, have a good weekend.
Most things are better than Dewalt.
Carpenters in 1970 were stronger than today's carpenters. They worked Sun up to Sun down 7 days a week. We use guides and track saws and my Father who used vintage saws never needed a guide to rip down sheets of plywood. He lined up the cut and made it straight as any track saw today... the weight of the saw was a factor for getting straight cuts or maybe he was just that good. I worked with him for 5 years building houses in the late 80s and not 1 time did he ever need a guide to cut anything.
I think you're being kind to the current value of money by suggesting $100 in 1970 would be $700 today. :)
Me questioning who said manufacturers put timers on their tools for when they die but to be honest I don't think planed obsolescence is really a thing when it comes to power tools but if you're looking at maybe things that require a small engines it's very obvious especially when you have brigs and stratton saying that you don't have to change the oil on their engines anymore which is very blatant planned obsolescence
This logic doesn't hold for all things. The most salient example that comes to mind is a clothes washer. A Maytag Deluxe, one of the best machines ever made, easily lasted 20-30 years or more. You still see them for sale all the time, and they get snapped up. Todays machines are goners in less than 10 years, sometimes not even close to that. They aren't washing clothes any better.
IMO the term "planned obsolescence" is thrown around too much. I don't think today's tools are intentionally built to fail. I think they're built cheap to sell cheap but still make some money. There are still some tools out there that will last, they're just expensive.
I would ask you to watch a veritasium video on light bulbs and planned obsolesce and still say that manufacturers cant plan the lifespan of their products,
I will, right after you watch this video again but with the sound on this time. You obviously didn't hear what I said the first time.
And I watched it. Now I remember why I unsubscribed from his channel: he's a full blown communist.
Any cartel that forms to set the lifespan of a lightbulb (which cost the average consumer literally pennies per year in replacement cost at the time, so wow, such a big deal!) is doomed to failure if the free market is allowed to operate. Competition soon killed it, like it does with every other market domination. But they (the commies or "useful idiots" as the soviets called them) hold up ultra rare instances like this as "proof" for the rule and use that to justify government meddling in a market that should be left along.
That video was pure leftist propaganda and the biggest shame is that 7+ million people watched that crap. Hopefully a few of them have the intelligence to think for themselves.
@@IBuildItScrapBin I know he has quite communistic views, but my point is that manufactures have, and do, limit the lifespan of whatever they make. No one thinks planned obsolescence as it is today has the manufacturers setting exact usage hours or a button that disables everything made in a specific year. Planned obsolesces is manufactures using cheaper, non-replaceable components on what they sell, such as cheap triggers that are housed in drills that can not be non-destructively opened to replace and break in just a few years of light use even in inexpensive tools. I think we should be able to repair our tools, phones, cars, or anything without needing to send it to the manufacturer because 3rd party repair shops either aren't allowed to or can't get the parts to fix them (especially when it comes to vehicles). This is planned obsolescence.
One last thing I want to add is that "better" is a subjective term. Some people may prefer tools that are high quality and will last a lifetime, while others may want the convenience of a cordless tool, lighter material, less upfront expense, and is willing to sacrifice robust construction and reparability. Yes, technology will continue to improve and new features and gimmicks will be used to convince people to buy new tools. I don't think that people should have to buy new tools every few years because cheap tools stop working and can't be fixed, only replaced.
I know you can still buy quality, expensive tools, I just don't like HOW cheap and poorly made a lot of the cheap tools are.
My point was that what most of the herd are calling planned obsolescence is a product of their own cheapness. They want the best deal and when it doesn't last forever they think they've been ripped off. They are that stupid.
If they want better quality products that are reliable and more serviceable, they have to pay more for them.
And if YOU know the tools are too poorly made, don't buy them - simple.
@@IBuildItScrapBin Commies, lol.
The argument against the "lightbulb conspiracy" is 1000 hours was the performance sweet spot the cartel settled on. Bulbs are fungible, they all had the same tech. A brighter bulb has a thinner filament, so fails early. Long life bulbs have thick filaments, but are dim. The cartel essentially established a standard for what was new technology at that time.
It's playing out again, cheap LED lamps have fewer chips, overdrive them and so fail early, ie thin filaments. The "Dubai lamps" as made famous by "Big Clive" underdrive them, dimmer but long life, ie thicker filament. (Buy cheap & brighter than you need, then mod them to be dimmer and so last longer)
Comon, obviously it is a mixed bag (like everything) and it really depends on the time you compare to. Cars, for example, seem to be failing more now and sooner than they were 20 years ago. But 1980s cars were also garbage. Many things are now designed to not be easily repaired, so they don't last as long, but the up-front cost is cheaper and they are able to add more features using eg. microcontrollers without adding cost by doing so. Is it worth it? Well, that really depends doesn't it. I personally use a lot of old stuff (to me, often 1990s stuff). Another good reason is to avoid the modern fad of connecting everything to the Internet and requiring a subscription or permission from the mothership to allow basic functionality. Surely requiring a monthly fee makes a product "objectively worse" than one which does not require a fee, in that respect.
Since the answer is obvious, I almost didn't watch this video. Older/vintage tools are NOT better. Motors, designs, technology, blades, accuracy, and reliability have all improved. People point to the isolated surviving older tools, discounting the far greater number of older tools that didn't survive.
There is almost no direct comparison- the features that people valued back then are not the same as now, heck, some of what people by tools for now people couldn't even imagine back then. There are safety features now that some wouldn't use the tool without and others find aggravating and would disable if they have the opportunity. I think as tools get larger and heavier (think table saws and bigger, machining tools...) there has been less improvement in the design, and for example my 1960 J-head Bridgeport mill is as good or better than what you could get till they stopped making them or as you can get today. OTOH, the business that would rely on that Bridgeport might be buying a CNC Tormach or Haas now. For my use my "old iron" Bridgeport or 60's/early 70's vintage Craftsman tablesaw is better and more durable then a comparable modern machine (I contrast them to things like my modern Grizzly lathe, which just doesn't have the bulk and heavy dutyness that my old iron has), but the reality is that it's just different, it's an apples to oranges comparison.
You already know the answer! Yes all day
Old grinder guards I’ve heard were just as shitty