Kicking in Pugilism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- I'm regularly asked if kicks were allowed in Classical Pugilism, this video explores the use of kicks in traditional English Martial Arts.
HEMAC Factsheet on Pugilism: www.hemac.org/d...
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My Great Great grandfather was a Cornish Wrestler of which, by all accounts, as told to me by my Grandfather, he was particularly passion about. His son, my Great Grandfather, was a boxer and a coach. I do have an old photo of him with one of his students.
That's awesome!
I study CACC style submission grappling (taught to me by Chris Paines, a really nice guy and fanatical about every aspect of ground fighting) and I am really getting into the pugilist style boxing. I've done some Muay Thai and boxing and some BJJ and Greco roman too. I say this because I'm sure my ancestors would be pleased that I have continued to scrap a bit. Thanks loads for the videos. Really informative and entertaining. Appreciated muchly.
In some self-defense manuals particularly "Kill or Be Killed" by Rex Applegate and self-defense books by Bruce Tegner including his book on law enforcement tactics the kicks shown in them are low sidekicks made to the knee or lower, they don't bother with anything fancy at all like the types mention in this video.
Bruce Tegner the expert on every martial art with just a few weeks of training.......?
I'm glad I found this channel
Matt Easton of Scholagladiatoria brought me
When I see you talk about the various ages of Pugilism I am reminded of a SciFi book, I believe it is 'Now we choose Faces' by Roger Zelazny where the main character is serially immortal through the use of cloned bodies but each time he changes bodies he has the ability to edit the more violent memories out so that he can evolve himself to be a less violent person. Sort of the same way that the rules of Pugilism evolve the sport to be less violent, or maybe less gory at least.
That's the philosophical approach that says as humanity becomes more civilized, the less need for conflict resolution through violence.
In reality it has occurred this way, because as modern weapons and methods of fighting have evolved, these ancient arts have fallen into disused. So in a manner to preserve its historical spirit, they have been modernized into the form of a sport!
I wish that this history of the different eras of Boxing would be made into a Netflix or Hulu series or movie. The moments you're describing would make great drama and TV while also teaching audiences about the Historical roots of Boxing.
There are a few documentaries out there, some can be found on TH-cam, but none of them seem to be as comprehensive as they need to be.
Few are aware of the origins in ancient Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Which later made its way to ancient Greece and Rome. Some of it also traveled down the Nile to Central and West Africa, where it is known as Dambe boxing.
The ancient Greco-Roman art known as pygmachia and pugilatus was reconstructed by the HEMA group ACTA-ARCHEO in France and ArsDimicandi group in Italy. It was one of the skills used in ancient pankration, the other one being pale.
I never knew the definition of pugilism, I just always guessed it meant striking using the hands or hand held weapons, mainly because of the TV show "Gladiators", where the giant cotton bud looking things for the jousting event were called "Pugil sticks".
My great granfather was a supposed to be a wrestlter so my aunt saya. She said he was known as Royton Jack but i could not find that name.
Fighting out of Oldham?
There were more kicking types then that in English pugilism but nothing fancy like u see karate
The question of where did modern karate got its kicks from, often arises. There's particular evidence that modern karate kicks might have been influenced by French Savate and other Southeast Asian martial arts...
@@tatumergo3931 considering I said this 3 years ago I have learned alot since then. I'm well aware of that now
Okinawan karate didn't have the fancy kicks that you see today
@@mattmc9812. They're certainly not shown in any of the old traditional Katas...
Great video!
Is it possible for you to do a video on the Rough and Tumble Boxing of the slave boxers of Virginia?
Regarding the Figg References this might help: www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/11/1/1786865/james-figg-the-lost-origins-of-the-sport-of-mixed-martial-arts
There is also a reference to Figg submitting people on the ground ... sound familiar.
I was surprised you left out the original rule set of sportive pugilism which involved a round with swords a round with cudgels and a round of boxing.
In response to Hugo: what your asking for is basically Bartitsu or the French equivalent DDLR both of which are a cross between period wrestling, ju-jitsu, Savate, English Bare Knukle and self defense with cane, knife, hat, scarf or anything else you could find.
Apert from that wonderful video as always and keep up the great work
Pugilism , in my opinion, is best defined as combative boxing.
Thesocraticbreed as a opposed to...noncombative boxing?
@@ilitardo160 as opposed to sport boxing that only addresses hand striking from the front and waist up
The name itself comes from the ancient Roman's word pugilatus. A fighting method learned from the ancient Greek's method of pygmachia, one of the skills used in Pankration (ancient MMA).
I thought a pugilist was a professional fighter who gets paid for competing in combat sports.
Although the rules did not disallow kicking, is there any solid evidence of people actually kicking? And if so, what were the techniques?
Did you not watch the video? He tells you.
Yes, did you?? He does not say specfically who is documented as using kicks nor exactly what the techniques were. I am very familiar with the sources and purring, which was relevant to wrestling ( as he mentions) and as a standalone contest but I am not aware - other than from one expert - of actual contemporary documentation on kicks being used.
I was purposefully vague about the sources, because I remember reading something, but I can't for the life of me remember what the source was. If it comes to me I'll let you know.
Well done, sir. So, basically, no more than purring. However, I have been informed of a contemporary picture showing a kick to the gut.
Well it certainly wouldn't have been illegal. I'd love to see it if you can possibly find a link...
thing is though purring kicks as there known in this country were developed by knights to be used when wearing metal boots now a days its either foot or shin
For lack of a better word, for Christ sake!....... They're called sabatons, and what they used was the spurs.
You can see some examples of the technique in Talhoffers book of his treatise. Also Lichtenauer, Meyer and many others!
Dirty fighting was shown to me by some guys in ex sas,quick ,fast, finish,No rules fight to win.ive done a lot of styles jujitsu .boxing and jeet dune do in states dennis martin was a great bodyguard instructor, and geoff Thompson a real leader out there.
system russian martial arts had some great drills and i mix what i want at the time.all fights should be over in 3/5 secs the instructor re in forces ,,lol
For self-defense in the streets, all you need is to be the first!
For military combatives what you need is to know where the knock out and weak spots are, and then the sequence needed to cause maiming or lethality (death).
Check out Tim Larkin's TFT and judge for yourself.
Corkscrew and finger spearing techniques of the Cretans
The Cretans were idiots, everyone knows that the superior pygmachia was practiced by the Thespians.
Regarding toe kicks in Oriental systems of fighting, there is an Okinawan style of karate called Uechi Ryu that conditions the big toe for kicks. You see it demonstrated 56 seconds into the video I will post below this comment:
Well it didn't post!...... for those interested Kiyohide Shinjo sensei 3 second kumite!
I suggest to anyone by finding a more popular martial art in of your country, then make sure to find a good school with a good coach, then climb through the ranks, , then make the comparison between the moves you learned to and the ones on TH-cam. You learn that while a deadly martial art was being developed in Asia a person was developing those same moves in Europe at the same time
Call it humanity.... That's why the old saying that there are only two true martial arts, for humans in the world. One is striking and the other one is grappling, the rest is only variations and cultural peculiarities.
wow, wrestling with kicks. that would be an interesting site to see.
Fantastic content.
How about knee strikes such as in the clinch or even flying knee bombs, especially at the highest level fighters?
Hi Oz, I'm working on a research project for university on boxing through history and would like to include a discussion on the perception of kicking in English pugilism. I tried accessing the HEMAC fact sheet linked in the description but the link seems to be broken--could you point me towards some of the primary documents you've researched that speak on kicking in the Broughton's Rules era of pugilism? Thanks so much for making these videos!
Early pugilism sounds more like MMA than boxing however what is being said does sound plausible.obvoiusly there was no rules and codification back than but I also suppose that why there s not alot documentation of techiques.
Today we know a lot of Asian martial arts, because their used was preserved longer. Modern weapons technology and methods of fighting didn't come as rapidly to Asia as to the rest of the world. Thus when Europeans were able to enter deeply into Asian cultures, they were able to documented all with modern technology.
Otherwise a lot of these Asian martial arts would have disappeared, just like European martial arts did for a while. At least until interested people started looking through old libraries and finding the old treatises!
Imagine some thai boxer fighting pugilists
So do you think Muay Thai resembles a pugilism style of rules the most in our time? Ofcourse thai fighters fight differently and for sport, but it has a very broad range of techniques. Kicking, knee strikes, elbow strikes, punches, sweeps, throws and hand trapping. MMA is the same though it isn't exclusively focused on stand up fighting.
Lethwai is the closest I think
Muay Thai is a modern sports take on a more ancient art of combat known as Muay Boran. Which it involves more techniques including some grappling methods.
If your wearing hard boots kicking high would be rendered a bit redundant.
Although not absolutely necessary for a streetfight, or self-defense situation. Having the ability to kick high and quickly, even with heavy boots on. Gives you an unexpected advantage over your opponents!
..... It's like the Spanish Inquisition, no one is expecting it ........!
Very similar to Muai Thai.
To EnglishMartialArts operator: Do you know of HOW the Filipino martial arts have had an influence on the development of techniques and/or training? is there any proven documentation. all I heard is rumors from FMAs to the point of arrogance from some and from the Inosanto camp stating that modern boxing would not be what it is WITHOUT the influence of Filipino martial arts.
chitownmo I don't know about the influence of filipino arts but there has been claim that the filipino arts were influenced by Spain's Sword and dagger styles though I'm not sure what the evidence is for that.
No evidence. Just an Americans (Dan Inosanto) belief. In fact, as mentioned there is sure evidence of European methods influencing the Islanders. The idea that the hands were brought close to the head is more about starting to use gloves than any of Inosanto's ideas.
That is a good point, but the reason they were changed was the influence of other systems, savage with its toe kicks, then later as boxing became it's own thing the other martial arts came in and changed what was left.
An easy example to show this influence is stab the norse martial art, I know it's outside HEMA, but I just using it as an example, depending on sources it's 60%+ ju jitsu
Unfortunately change doesn't always mean better
Hi Paul, You are absolutely right that it was influence from other systems that caused them to change. There was also a huige backlash against any sort of violent passtime after WWI, it left the way wide open for other, more exotic systems of combat to become popular.
On Stav (I assume that's what you mean - autocorrect?) it's predominantly Aikido. It's heavily influenced by Viking Runes, and the philosphies behind the art are not Japanese in flavour, but the art is only Western in the loosest possible sense. I say this without trying to disparrage it, the people I know who teach it are open about the art and it's origins, and the only thing I hate in Martial Arts is dishonesty. Graham Butcher is a senior Stav instructor and a lovely bloke. I've had him teach at events for me in the past.
Ha ha yes stav, stupid auto correct
Totally agree with your sentiments, have trained with graham and was part of his fire and ice set up, for won't of a word, do yes can't fault him or his teachers. Depending on who the mix can be aikido ju jitsu, fencing, karate and others to fill in the gaps.
It was just the easiest art to choose to show influence
Thanks for sharing! Have you done a video on traditional English wrestling kicks?
Just wondering if these low kicks were circular or straight. And if there are still traditional Cornish Devonshire practitioners today. I believe there once was a Welsh and Scottish wrestling styles, too.
Appreciate the video but listing specific years would help those of us not versed in various boxing 'era's to get a better sense of the timeline involved... I don't know if these fights took place in the 13'00s or 18'00s...
The popularity of the sport starts to take place around the 18th and 19th century, until its formal codification in the late 19th century to early 20th century. Ofcourse grappling and striking was not unknown to earlier time periods.
There's a Dutch treatise on barehand fighting, dating to the 17th century in which even kicking techniques are shown.
The more I hear about it the more similar pugilism seems to wing chun
Guy Potts There is a theory in some circles that wing chun is at least in part based on pugilism as it was developed primarily in the period of British colonial rule of hong kong and strong influence in the cantonese portion of China and because Wing Chun seems to be drastically different from most other chinese styles.
+Sean A. Emrick While I certainly agree that Wing Chun may have been influenced by Western martial arts, and there is similar speculation regarding Hsing-i chuan, I have to disagree with the notion that Wing Chun is drastically different from other CMAs. Fukien White Crane, the various branches of Southern Preying Mantis, Bai Mei,and numerous other Southern styles have similar technical and tactical aspects. Which in no way invalidates the idea that Western boxing influenced some CMAs during the Republican era.
Guy Potts agreed, absolutely
Except Pugilism actually worked
@@willgetcarriedfornudes1417 and wing chun probably worked as it was used by tong gangsters in 1870s people who fight tend to have good systems
Do you have any thoughts/comments/info on the influence or crossover or contact that pugilism, especially kicking may have had w/ savate?
*****
That makes sense. I'd suspect Savate shares a root with Sabot, a wooden clog.
Did English Medieval fist fight include kicks? I rad first English match of fist fight (just fist fight of villagers, not boxing) happened in 1219 year.
It's hard to know for certain, but based on what we do know I'd be very surprised if it didn't.
If there's any hint of kicking techniques been used in medieval times, you will find it in the different medieval manuscripts from Fiore di Liberi and Talhoffer.
Yes they knew how to kick and they used it!
Ahhh so it was kind of
Like Muy Thai leg shots and clinches
Yeah, kinda. I'd say the clinch work is more sophisticated in MT, but the wrestling more so in CP.
Were kicks to the groin also okay in the beginning?
If yew were strong enough to pull an ear off, yew prolly could.
Depending on the venue and region where the spectacle might be held. Ofcourse for combat in War, anything is allowed!
So it was just thai boxing without high kicks and with shoes?
it sounds like mma to me.
Man, I am enjoying it a lot.
So I'm not familiar with Pugilism much at all, nor boxing or wrestling. I've just been casually watching these videos because I've seen you with Matt Easton's Vids.
So I've got a question that I think would be a neat video. In the first Robert Downy Jr Sherlock Holmes movie, are they practicing Pugilism or what in that fight scene when he's in the ring with that big guy. You should do a video analyzing this scene.
th-cam.com/video/BGCMfprPJoA/w-d-xo.html
James November Thanks for the suggestion, that's a nice idea. I'll look into it.
It is called Bartitsu.
Boxing/MMA I think the only sport where one can legally commit homicide.
Boxing more so than MMA, for in mixed martial arts there's the one knock out rule. Whereas in boxing if the referee and other officials are not paying attention a boxer will be allowed to continue fighting, even after its clear that they're suffering a brain hemorrhage.
Savate is done with the toe
If yer wearing clogs, put one on yer hand and club em
Savate is the modern codification of a more old method of fighting, sabot. And to some extent the Parisienne streetfighting skills of the Apache thugs!
You realy look like roman atwood
The Roman style of boxing was called pugilatus or caestus. It was one of the fighting spectacles of the early morning Roman Circus. It didn't track a lot of popularity back then, people preferring the gladiatorial combats of the afternoon games!
Please send me my gloves.
I suggest to anyone by finding a more popular martial art in of your country, then make sure to find a good school with a good coach, then climb through the ranks, , then make the comparison between the moves you learned to and the ones on TH-cam. You learn that while a deadly martial art was being developed in Asia a person was developing those same moves in Europe at the same time
I suggest to anyone by finding a more popular martial art in of your country, then make sure to find a good school with a good coach, then climb through the ranks, , then make the comparison between the moves you learned to and the ones on TH-cam. You learn that while a deadly martial art was being developed in Asia a person was developing those same moves in Europe at the same time