63% to 67% armor is not a 4% increase. You go from reducing a 100 dmg hit down to 37, instead down to 33. Thats a 11-12% reduction in effective damage taken (37/33=1.12). Easy way to understand this is that going from 98 to 99% dmg reduction isnt 1% better, it means you DOUBLED your EHP. Armor and MR dont have diminishing returns, the % diminishes per point of armor, but the EHP increase remains consistent. Meaning the same armor to go from 0 to 50% reduction, is the same # of armor to go from 98 to 99% reduction, because both double your phys EHP taken before you die.
Doing a quick breakdown : It comes down to ehp / gold Setting up some constants: the value of HP is 2.67 gold per point of HP the value of armor is 20 gold per point lets assume a base hp of 2000 and base armor of 100 the formula to get eph is ( 1 + (armor / 100)) * hp knowing this we can set up some examples lets say we buy 50 Armor, what is our ehp? doing the math ((1 + (150/100)) * 2000) gets us 5000 eph how much is 50 armor costing us in gold? thats ez 50 * 20 = 1000 gold now we need to ask "how much gold do we need to spend in health to get the same EHP?" we need to solve for x here: 5000 = ((1 + (100/100)) * x) doing the math out it comes to 2500 as our total HP so we need to buy 500 health to get the equivalent amount of hp how much does 500 health cost? since the value of gold is 2.67 gold per point of HP we get a cost of 1335 gold for 500 hp so in conclusion, I think your math is a bit off. I don't think I missed anything but I could be wrong. of course we can also argue about Regen and how that comes into play plus other factors such as buy times but i'm not 100% sure how to math that out. tldr; assuming a base hp of 2000 and base armor of 100 getting 5000 ehp via buying hp cost 1335 gold getting 5000 ehp via buying armor cost 1000 gold armor wins at about a 300 gold difference for perspective Diana has 2493 hp and 104.1 armor at level 18 I actually love talking about this kind of stuff so let me know if i missed anything
I wrote a similar kind of breakdown before reading your comment. I agree with the effectiveness of Armor over Health, but this is only against physical damage and without considering armor pen (which any reasonable ADC should buy if their opponents are buying tank items). Against LDR, our champion with 2000 HP and 100 Armor has 60 Effective Armor, giving us 3200 EHP. To gain an additional 1000 EHP, we would need either an additional 83.33 armor (which costs 1666 gold) or an additional 625 Health (which costs 1668 gold). Interestingly, Armor and Health are just as efficient against LDR physical damage in terms of gold efficiency (I made a similar conclusion about gains in EHP against LDR). However, this EHP from armor does nothing against magic damage. And if Health and Armor are just as efficient against LDR, then you should prioritize health if you're only buying just one tank item.
Like the other person said, there is a lot of % Armor pen in the game which is very effective, because champions tend to have relatively high base resistances nowadays. Besides that i want to say health is just as effective against magic and true damage as it is against armor. Even against full ad compositions you are going to take tons of magic and true dmg; a lot of full ad champs deal magic dmg (ex. Yone passive, Brair E, Rengar W, Gnar W) items deal magic dmg (ex. Thornmail, Sunfire, Rageblade), true damage from red buff is present in every single game and many champions have true dmg in their kits (ex. Twitch passive, Gangplank passive, Fiora' passive , Olaf E). There is something making resistances more powerful than health tho - healing and shielding give you more effective health when combined with resistances
Kind of wrong, they scale linearily. 100 armor gives you 100% extra hp vs physical damage (50% reduction) 200 armor gives you 200% extra hp vs physical damage (66% reduction) if you say this scales nonlinearily, then hp doesnt either its always hp * resistance
The state of tanks in this game is absolutely miserable. I just had a game of Kench vs a team full of AD champions. There was not one champion who did magic damage. All AD. Seems like a simple scenario - build armor. After Heartsteel, I build Unending Despair, Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Ninja tabis, and Sunfire. Seems good, no? Absolutely not. Their Samira, who only had Lord Dominik's RUINED me in less than 2 seconds. Shredded my HP, shredded my E shiled, and killed me like I was a squishy with no armor items. I was so incredibly useless that game. It's still hard for me to wrap my head around it. What even is the point of buying AD items if I still get deleted in less than 5 seconds? What? Riot please answer me what is the point of even playing tanks anymore. This is just pathetic.
exactly my point, 40% gets shredded and youre investing so much gold into that armor, of course its still worth vs full ad teams or for tanks that build 4/5 tank items but most of the time armor is an overrated stat
I think I agree with the conclusion of armor items not being great, but I think there's a better mathematical argument for it (the better and more straightforward argument is just the gameplay argument that cheaper items let you finish them sooner, and finished items grant additional benefits). A brief argument in defense of Armor: If we assume that we have 2400 Health and 100 Armor without having previously bought any tank stats (so like a lvl 18 Caitlyn), a Thornmail (giving us a total of 2750 Health and 170 Armor for 7245 Effective Health) will provide significantly more Effective Health than a Warmog's (3400 Health and 100 Armor for 6800 Effective Health). Even against LDR, the Thornmail actually provides marginally more effective health against physical damage (5555 Effective Health compared to Warmog's 5440). But this gain in Effective Health against LDR is negligible, and it's only any good against physical damage. Because physical carries will pretty consistently buy percent armor penetration, and because of the fact that any good team comp should have split magic and physical damage, Health is a more efficient purchase for tankiness in most games. This excludes games where your opponent primarily has physical damage (recall that Thornmail is more efficient than Warmog's even against LDR). These numbers also only consider purchasing one tank item, since we're talking about characters like Diana that also want to build damage items. Using a bit of calculus intuition (think about the "derivative of Effective Health" with respect to Armor or Health), because Effective Health is a product of Health and Armor, Armor purchases become even more efficient after you've purchased your first tank item. Ignoring your armor from leveling up, buying straight Health will only ever give you linear increases in Effective Health. If you buy Armor proportionally to your Health purchases, then you effectively have quadratic Effective Health growth. In short, a full tank benefits more from Armor than someone who's only buying one or two tank items (like Diana). We also haven't considered percent max health damage, and so Armor again becomes even more effective than Health against this damage type. TL;DR Health is better than Armor against the average team comp if you only want to buy one or two tank items.
Lord dominik's regard is so overtuned. As tank you have to split between armor and mr and that's already a con, then adc builds ldr and you just melt. Even against full ad, when you build full armor they build ldr and armor becomes shit even though you invested full armor which is the logical counter to full ad comp. I hope they should look at LDR.
So many people understand armor wrong. It was actually tested within the year by one of those popular channels that test stuff but more armor still reduces the same amount of damage linearly. If gaining 10 armor reduces damage taken from 50 to 45, gaining 10 more reduces it from 45 to 40. The reason the % it shows you is different is because percentages don't move linearly. for example if I gain 5% damage reduction at 0%, 50% and 90%, it will do VERY different things. If I take 100 damage, 0-5% will change the damage I take by 5%. Duh. But from 50-55%, it reduces it by 10% (50 damage to 45 damage) if I have 90% it reduces it by 50% (10 damage to 5 damage). This is why % damage reduction scales better than % damage increase.
Getting items sooner is 100% viable though since most games you won't be full build and that's why knights vow junglers were so popular last season in competitive
Yes youre right about the % but you still dont get much value when without buying armor it reduces by 10 vs 5, like why would i buy armor to reduce damage by 5 when i can buy hp instead to get more value?
Your first point is obviously wrong because by that logic if you bought 100 armor, a 50 damage attack would do 0. I think what you mean to say is it would go from 50 to 45, then from 45 to 40.5, which is 40 in the game because integers are rounded down. It would be 40.5 because 40.5 is 90% of 45 just like 45 is 90% of 50, so consistent percentage.
@@Lolgriffin because I changed the numbers to make it easier to understand. In my made up scenario, an item that gives 10 armor would only give like 150hp. And if you have 2k+ hp, 5 damage every hit is worth more than 150 more hp total. It's all about the scenario. That's why there's never one perfect build. You actually used the right term for calculating, but in the wrong context. You said effective HP, but you meant flat hp. EHP isn't raw hp, but it's your hp times your armor and a set number. I don't know the number for this game because I play several where EHP matters. For example if I have 50% damage reduction and 2k hp, my effective hp is 4k
@@dinocharlie1 yes and do the math, with 1 armor item warmogs will give more ehp even vs ad champs. especially vs ap champs, of course when you get more tank items it changes but this video is about jg/supp who build only a couple items, not for top
Your calculations are weird just use the league formula. 1 resistance is 1% effective hp. What is warmogs effective hp? 1000 * armor/mr depending on what type of damage their team does. Realistically warmogs is only maybe viable for passive
Letme give you an example let's say you are taking 100 dps and you have 1k ho you die in 10 seconds now with 50% damage reduction you take 50 so that's 20 seconds with 75% you take 25 so that is 40 seconds and so on and k had actually calculated this somewhere around 99.87% damage reduction is 8x tankier then 99% (we don't count armor pen and lethality)
This talk about not buying armor... No, just no... I have been playing top Udyr for almost 40 straight games now (65% win rate). And I can tell you that if you DON'T buy armor after your first AP or AD item, and the team has a little bit more gold than you, you're getting folded like a lawn chair. Armor is super useful and I buy it every single game, unless their only AD carry is completely useless. Not buying armor on Udyr is just foolish. Going armor as a bruiser is absolutely crucial if you want to team fight. I understand if you want to go and one shot people, but that's not how bruisers are meant to be played. Diana can be both, but don't tell me that armor does nothing. Because it is noticeable if you play the game. Killing the opponent before they even have time to do damage is another thing. I didn't watch the whole video, but a guy mentions that you don't understand how armor works. Gaining a linear amount of % reduction with armor is not going to work. The current system is exactly how armor should be scaling in most games. You can't have tanks with 100% damage reduction at full build, or just a flat 80%, that would suck to build. As the guy says, a 1% point increase on 98% to 99% effectively halves the damage you take.
Tell me you didnt watch the video without telling me... i said this is aimed at junglers supports who only build 2/3 items.... if youre top and go full build yes you should build armor cause it scales the more items you have. Come on man
@@Lolgriffin tell me you haven't read my whole comment without telling me you haven't read it LMAO. I wrote that I didn't watch the video in my comment. I already knew that you were wrong about armor, and of course armor can be bad if you're only ganking... Why would you build armor for short fights? No purpose. Anyways, your math is wrong apparently, so...
@@Lolgriffin I just see you getting frustrated in the replies, but the reason for these comments is that they've come here on the assumption that you are wrong/idiot based on the fact that the title is untrue for them, so they are looking for ways to confirm that and ignoring information that would help your case. They're human, after all
Video title : "Why you shouldn't buy armor" Reason : "Trust me bro" You forgot % max health damages existed, how convenient? Why are you making a video about something you don't understand?
They removed giant slayer from ldr. You act like armor pen doesnt exist lmao, even wirh bork its still valuable because base armor... like why dont people understand what my point is about this video. Yes you can get armor and reduce the damage but buying hp will give you more ehp unless you are buying like 5 6 tank items...
@@Lolgriffin The main problem with the video is that you are talking about math without showing any math, we just have to trust you ? Both Resists and HPs suck because BOTH have counters (items and champions) In recent meta you better one-shot the enemy before he one-shot you.
Which is why you my point stands even further, if you watched the video you would hear me say junglers usually sit 2/3 items which is why abyssal warmogs or zekes warmogs is so good
Pinning this here because people are missing the point of this video. Yes you can buy armor and reduce the damage you take, but buying hp will always give you more EHP unless youre buying 4 or 5 tank items which is why i said unless you play top its not really valuable to be building armor. Base armor with plated steelcaps into mr with hp stack will always have more ehp...
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63% to 67% armor is not a 4% increase.
You go from reducing a 100 dmg hit down to 37, instead down to 33. Thats a 11-12% reduction in effective damage taken (37/33=1.12).
Easy way to understand this is that going from 98 to 99% dmg reduction isnt 1% better, it means you DOUBLED your EHP.
Armor and MR dont have diminishing returns, the % diminishes per point of armor, but the EHP increase remains consistent.
Meaning the same armor to go from 0 to 50% reduction, is the same # of armor to go from 98 to 99% reduction, because both double your phys EHP taken before you die.
thats my boy I was just about to comment about it this dude doesnt know basic 8th grade math
% of EHP wont increase as much
Ehp is still less. Like youre spending same gold to reduce by such a little amount instead of just buying hp to get more value
@@Lolgriffin warmogs is so hot
@@Minecraft52628 99% damage reduction is 100% more ehp then 98% what's your point
Don’t Armor Buy
The title is kinda click bait if you're saying this is for jg lol
Doing a quick breakdown : It comes down to ehp / gold
Setting up some constants:
the value of HP is 2.67 gold per point of HP
the value of armor is 20 gold per point
lets assume a base hp of 2000 and base armor of 100
the formula to get eph is ( 1 + (armor / 100)) * hp
knowing this we can set up some examples
lets say we buy 50 Armor, what is our ehp?
doing the math ((1 + (150/100)) * 2000) gets us 5000 eph
how much is 50 armor costing us in gold?
thats ez 50 * 20 = 1000 gold
now we need to ask "how much gold do we need to spend in health to get the same EHP?"
we need to solve for x here: 5000 = ((1 + (100/100)) * x)
doing the math out it comes to 2500 as our total HP
so we need to buy 500 health to get the equivalent amount of hp
how much does 500 health cost?
since the value of gold is 2.67 gold per point of HP we get a cost of 1335 gold for 500 hp
so in conclusion, I think your math is a bit off. I don't think I missed anything but I could be wrong.
of course we can also argue about Regen and how that comes into play plus other factors such as buy times but i'm not 100% sure how to math that out.
tldr;
assuming a base hp of 2000 and base armor of 100
getting 5000 ehp via buying hp cost 1335 gold
getting 5000 ehp via buying armor cost 1000 gold
armor wins at about a 300 gold difference
for perspective Diana has 2493 hp and 104.1 armor at level 18
I actually love talking about this kind of stuff so let me know if i missed anything
I wrote a similar kind of breakdown before reading your comment. I agree with the effectiveness of Armor over Health, but this is only against physical damage and without considering armor pen (which any reasonable ADC should buy if their opponents are buying tank items). Against LDR, our champion with 2000 HP and 100 Armor has 60 Effective Armor, giving us 3200 EHP. To gain an additional 1000 EHP, we would need either an additional 83.33 armor (which costs 1666 gold) or an additional 625 Health (which costs 1668 gold). Interestingly, Armor and Health are just as efficient against LDR physical damage in terms of gold efficiency (I made a similar conclusion about gains in EHP against LDR). However, this EHP from armor does nothing against magic damage. And if Health and Armor are just as efficient against LDR, then you should prioritize health if you're only buying just one tank item.
Like the other person said, there is a lot of % Armor pen in the game which is very effective, because champions tend to have relatively high base resistances nowadays. Besides that i want to say health is just as effective against magic and true damage as it is against armor. Even against full ad compositions you are going to take tons of magic and true dmg; a lot of full ad champs deal magic dmg (ex. Yone passive, Brair E, Rengar W, Gnar W) items deal magic dmg (ex. Thornmail, Sunfire, Rageblade), true damage from red buff is present in every single game and many champions have true dmg in their kits (ex. Twitch passive, Gangplank passive, Fiora' passive , Olaf E). There is something making resistances more powerful than health tho - healing and shielding give you more effective health when combined with resistances
Kind of wrong, they scale linearily.
100 armor gives you 100% extra hp vs physical damage (50% reduction)
200 armor gives you 200% extra hp vs physical damage (66% reduction)
if you say this scales nonlinearily, then hp doesnt either
its always hp * resistance
Yes i did hp*resistance and you get more ehp with this
The state of tanks in this game is absolutely miserable. I just had a game of Kench vs a team full of AD champions. There was not one champion who did magic damage. All AD. Seems like a simple scenario - build armor. After Heartsteel, I build Unending Despair, Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Ninja tabis, and Sunfire. Seems good, no? Absolutely not. Their Samira, who only had Lord Dominik's RUINED me in less than 2 seconds. Shredded my HP, shredded my E shiled, and killed me like I was a squishy with no armor items. I was so incredibly useless that game. It's still hard for me to wrap my head around it. What even is the point of buying AD items if I still get deleted in less than 5 seconds? What? Riot please answer me what is the point of even playing tanks anymore. This is just pathetic.
U think thats bad? Adc gets obliterated in 0.3 seconds
exactly my point, 40% gets shredded and youre investing so much gold into that armor, of course its still worth vs full ad teams or for tanks that build 4/5 tank items but most of the time armor is an overrated stat
@@seaslugs We're in the same boat
not to mention stuff like cleaver and syreldas reducing it even further. rammus with w up vs yorick is like only 300 armor when usually its 600 or so
I think I agree with the conclusion of armor items not being great, but I think there's a better mathematical argument for it (the better and more straightforward argument is just the gameplay argument that cheaper items let you finish them sooner, and finished items grant additional benefits).
A brief argument in defense of Armor: If we assume that we have 2400 Health and 100 Armor without having previously bought any tank stats (so like a lvl 18 Caitlyn), a Thornmail (giving us a total of 2750 Health and 170 Armor for 7245 Effective Health) will provide significantly more Effective Health than a Warmog's (3400 Health and 100 Armor for 6800 Effective Health). Even against LDR, the Thornmail actually provides marginally more effective health against physical damage (5555 Effective Health compared to Warmog's 5440).
But this gain in Effective Health against LDR is negligible, and it's only any good against physical damage. Because physical carries will pretty consistently buy percent armor penetration, and because of the fact that any good team comp should have split magic and physical damage, Health is a more efficient purchase for tankiness in most games.
This excludes games where your opponent primarily has physical damage (recall that Thornmail is more efficient than Warmog's even against LDR). These numbers also only consider purchasing one tank item, since we're talking about characters like Diana that also want to build damage items. Using a bit of calculus intuition (think about the "derivative of Effective Health" with respect to Armor or Health), because Effective Health is a product of Health and Armor, Armor purchases become even more efficient after you've purchased your first tank item. Ignoring your armor from leveling up, buying straight Health will only ever give you linear increases in Effective Health. If you buy Armor proportionally to your Health purchases, then you effectively have quadratic Effective Health growth. In short, a full tank benefits more from Armor than someone who's only buying one or two tank items (like Diana). We also haven't considered percent max health damage, and so Armor again becomes even more effective than Health against this damage type.
TL;DR Health is better than Armor against the average team comp if you only want to buy one or two tank items.
Lord dominik's regard is so overtuned. As tank you have to split between armor and mr and that's already a con, then adc builds ldr and you just melt. Even against full ad, when you build full armor they build ldr and armor becomes shit even though you invested full armor which is the logical counter to full ad comp. I hope they should look at LDR.
So many people understand armor wrong. It was actually tested within the year by one of those popular channels that test stuff but more armor still reduces the same amount of damage linearly. If gaining 10 armor reduces damage taken from 50 to 45, gaining 10 more reduces it from 45 to 40.
The reason the % it shows you is different is because percentages don't move linearly. for example if I gain 5% damage reduction at 0%, 50% and 90%, it will do VERY different things. If I take 100 damage, 0-5% will change the damage I take by 5%. Duh. But from 50-55%, it reduces it by 10% (50 damage to 45 damage) if I have 90% it reduces it by 50% (10 damage to 5 damage). This is why % damage reduction scales better than % damage increase.
Getting items sooner is 100% viable though since most games you won't be full build and that's why knights vow junglers were so popular last season in competitive
Yes youre right about the % but you still dont get much value when without buying armor it reduces by 10 vs 5, like why would i buy armor to reduce damage by 5 when i can buy hp instead to get more value?
Your first point is obviously wrong because by that logic if you bought 100 armor, a 50 damage attack would do 0.
I think what you mean to say is it would go from 50 to 45, then from 45 to 40.5, which is 40 in the game because integers are rounded down.
It would be 40.5 because 40.5 is 90% of 45 just like 45 is 90% of 50, so consistent percentage.
@@Lolgriffin because I changed the numbers to make it easier to understand. In my made up scenario, an item that gives 10 armor would only give like 150hp. And if you have 2k+ hp, 5 damage every hit is worth more than 150 more hp total. It's all about the scenario. That's why there's never one perfect build.
You actually used the right term for calculating, but in the wrong context. You said effective HP, but you meant flat hp. EHP isn't raw hp, but it's your hp times your armor and a set number. I don't know the number for this game because I play several where EHP matters. For example if I have 50% damage reduction and 2k hp, my effective hp is 4k
@@dinocharlie1 yes and do the math, with 1 armor item warmogs will give more ehp even vs ad champs. especially vs ap champs, of course when you get more tank items it changes but this video is about jg/supp who build only a couple items, not for top
Your calculations are weird just use the league formula. 1 resistance is 1% effective hp. What is warmogs effective hp? 1000 * armor/mr depending on what type of damage their team does. Realistically warmogs is only maybe viable for passive
Letme give you an example let's say you are taking 100 dps and you have 1k ho you die in 10 seconds now with 50% damage reduction you take 50 so that's 20 seconds with 75% you take 25 so that is 40 seconds and so on and k had actually calculated this somewhere around 99.87% damage reduction is 8x tankier then 99% (we don't count armor pen and lethality)
@@Zobuyta much simpler to just view it as effective hp. 1 armor is 1% extra effective hp.
Nice video! I bet the zekes/warmogs is also really good on alistar
This talk about not buying armor... No, just no... I have been playing top Udyr for almost 40 straight games now (65% win rate). And I can tell you that if you DON'T buy armor after your first AP or AD item, and the team has a little bit more gold than you, you're getting folded like a lawn chair. Armor is super useful and I buy it every single game, unless their only AD carry is completely useless. Not buying armor on Udyr is just foolish. Going armor as a bruiser is absolutely crucial if you want to team fight. I understand if you want to go and one shot people, but that's not how bruisers are meant to be played. Diana can be both, but don't tell me that armor does nothing. Because it is noticeable if you play the game. Killing the opponent before they even have time to do damage is another thing.
I didn't watch the whole video, but a guy mentions that you don't understand how armor works. Gaining a linear amount of % reduction with armor is not going to work. The current system is exactly how armor should be scaling in most games. You can't have tanks with 100% damage reduction at full build, or just a flat 80%, that would suck to build. As the guy says, a 1% point increase on 98% to 99% effectively halves the damage you take.
Tell me you didnt watch the video without telling me... i said this is aimed at junglers supports who only build 2/3 items.... if youre top and go full build yes you should build armor cause it scales the more items you have. Come on man
Bro just go ravenous + blood thirster and you heal to full on a proc
Also people frequently forget to mention, when talking about armor, that when you have heals and shields, armor value goes up.
@@Lolgriffin tell me you haven't read my whole comment without telling me you haven't read it LMAO. I wrote that I didn't watch the video in my comment. I already knew that you were wrong about armor, and of course armor can be bad if you're only ganking... Why would you build armor for short fights? No purpose. Anyways, your math is wrong apparently, so...
@@Minecraft52628 AD isn't that good though. I prefer AP tank. Less resistances from enemy team and Liandry's gives good damage in team fights.
Title is a bit bait, don't be surprised by negative comments
Yeah it is bait im sorry 😭 i still think armor kind of sucks though unless 4/5 tank items
@@Lolgriffin I just see you getting frustrated in the replies, but the reason for these comments is that they've come here on the assumption that you are wrong/idiot based on the fact that the title is untrue for them, so they are looking for ways to confirm that and ignoring information that would help your case. They're human, after all
Video title : "Why you shouldn't buy armor"
Reason : "Trust me bro"
You forgot % max health damages existed, how convenient?
Why are you making a video about something you don't understand?
well he sure understands now
They removed giant slayer from ldr. You act like armor pen doesnt exist lmao, even wirh bork its still valuable because base armor... like why dont people understand what my point is about this video. Yes you can get armor and reduce the damage but buying hp will give you more ehp unless you are buying like 5 6 tank items...
@@Lolgriffin The main problem with the video is that you are talking about math without showing any math, we just have to trust you ?
Both Resists and HPs suck because BOTH have counters (items and champions)
In recent meta you better one-shot the enemy before he one-shot you.
Bro you will almost never hit full build in a league game.
Which is why you my point stands even further, if you watched the video you would hear me say junglers usually sit 2/3 items which is why abyssal warmogs or zekes warmogs is so good
@@Lolgriffin you said certain roles are gonna hit full build though...
Yes top hits full build most games lol. Or are more likely
i think everyone missed the point of this video, i feel hes talking about how hp is cheaper than armor
Pinning this here because people are missing the point of this video. Yes you can buy armor and reduce the damage you take, but buying hp will always give you more EHP unless youre buying 4 or 5 tank items which is why i said unless you play top its not really valuable to be building armor. Base armor with plated steelcaps into mr with hp stack will always have more ehp...