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Yeah, that's a nice detail. Scabbards IRL don't generally produce that sound when drawing unless they're designed to, it's mostly Hollywood's SFX. Glad they bucked the trend here.
I was just going to comment on the nice attention to detail from the sound design folks, but I find you've beaten me to it. Having come across a fair number of Japanese swords of several eras, I can attest that drawing and re-sheathing from a wood 'saya' shouldn't be noisy at all. Smoothness and proper fit of the scabbard is, on the contrary, quite the point of pride for those who craft the things. Maybe a little /clink/ from the copper, bronze or sometimes silver or gold blade collar fitting at the scabbard mouth...
Asano Tadanobu’s performance in this thing is so good. This is an extremely common, but little-appreciated, type of Japanese guy - a bluff, crude, beardy oaf whose number one friendship-building strategy is to make obscene, ironic remarks and smack you in the head when you’re not paying attention. More than half the people I know are like this, and I love them all.
Algren's character wasn't in Katsumoto's village for weeks, he was there for months. He was also a multi-battle experienced cavalry officer. Unlike many of Katsumoto's men, he's actually experienced large scale military combat multiple times. He was repeatedly shown as having his backside handed to him in Japanese sword combat, but applied himself to learn. He certainly didn't flop around like a mouse who'd never touched a blade before.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 Actually he holds the Katana like you would do a Rapier, which he is probably somewhat familiar with as it was a common sword in Europe at the time. A Rapier has a different handle which allows for the kind of grip he is using. With a Katana such a Grip is nonsense. Also, he is a Sailor with Pistoles as his preferred weapon. So probably doesn't have too much sword-fighting knowledge.
@@marvinamann4969 Yes, and it's laughable how he holds it so loosely that he's easily disarmed with very little effort. Even his drawing of the sword looks clumsy and awkward, like he's never handled a sword before. Sure, he has pistols, and likes them as weapons, however within the historical context to suggest that a sea faring man would not be well adept at using a blades weapon is very unlikely. Frankly it's a badly written and executed scene. What purpose does it serve in furthering the plot? What are we supposed to take away from it? Unfortunately Blackthorne seems to have been nerfed in this adaptation in a number of ways compared to the novel. He's really no longer portrayed as an intelligent and adaptive person, one who uses said intelligence and a lot of open minded curiosity to learn to adapt and survive. It's unfortunate, and unnecessary.
@@nirmaljacob3968 mostly, yes, but the weight distribution is far more different. With the katana being more top heavy than a cutlass, one handing it like one would be a bit awkward. Plus, we don’t know how often Blackthorne even used a cutless. Let alone use it against a skilled swordsman
I like how he initially holds it like a rapier for a fencing euro style fencing duel , which would make sense. then he immediately corrects it to "two hands" and yeah, Europeans had two handed swords before this and were familiar with this. People tend to forget that martial arts were as common and developed in the west. Not to throw shade on japanese here.
Ships are cramped environments, even moreso during boarding actions. For mariners like him, a cutlass or a rapier would be more preferred (and practical) weapons, not necessarily two handed swords. They need at least one hand to grasp objects aboard ship (masts, ropes and loot, among other things), when aboard or boarding other ships. If they are well equipped, even use pistols before engaging in melee. A free hand makes for a versatile tool, allowing mariners flexibility especially during emergencies.
Japanese Katana's are a unique two handed sword differing in design from the European Blades. Instead of two cutting surfaces, a Katana only has one cutting surface, with the cutting edge being hardened and the back being a bit softer to allow the blade to take some blows during an exchange. Put shortly, John doesn't know how to use a Katana because he isn't an anime character.
I love how when hes told to draw his sword, he starts to reluctantly balance on his backfoot in a classic western rapier stance before being told off. Such a small detail but it adds so much to the scene
Another explanation of Blackthorne’s embarrassing performance here is that he doesn’t fully realize that Yabushige is giving him a lesson and not trying to kill him. He doesn’t understand his words and considering Yabushiges past actions and violent tendencies it isn’t out of the question that he might just finally butcher him out of spite.
Blackthorne of the series is VERY different from Blackthorne in the book. In book, at this point Blackthorne already understood quite well, what his position is and what he can and cannot do, and that being meek is seen as way bigger disgrace than being confident. Blackthorne despised Yabushige and while he understood their terms of cooperation quite well, he also showed his disdain quite often. Also, he was not acting cowardly and was quite capable of a fighter.
@@bvhia That is the point. In the book, at this point in the story Blackthorne knew that if samurai wants to kill him, he will. Nothing he can do about it. Plus he knew enough japanese already and established relation with Yabushige to a point that this depiction in the show is simply "Blackthorne of the books but the other way around"
Blackthorn is clearly faking it. Man is a seasoned privateer who raided dozens of Portuguese ports he absolutely knows "the blade from the handle". But it's smart to let the Japanese think he does not, especially given how this episode was all about deception and appearing weak when strong.
Cutlass, rapier, dagger, pike, axe... these were the usuall weapons of an european sailor. A 2-hand long sword/katana was a land infantry weapon, requiring diferent skills.
@@The_Gallowglasseh, those would have different weight distrubutions and such which would make the blade feel different, its not like putting on another pair of shoes and immediately running a sprint
John and Kashigi are the same. They're both just soilders who are both caught and trapped in the politics. I believe that if they were together and if they thought Toranaga was in danger they would fight to the death side by side having each other's back. Obviously, Kashiga is higher ranked and all that. That's not what I meant. I just meant, they share common things about them. That's all I meant.
@OlBlow-qv6oz tbf, the weather defeated the Mongols twice. Iirc, hurricanes destroyed the Mongol fleet twice. It actually caused a huge resurgence in religion in Japan, many had ceased believing, but this happening twice convinced many that the gods were real.
He understands Buntaro wants to kill John, and he choses to expose John's lack of swordmanship so that it would be a dishonor for a samuraï of Buntaro's level to challenge John in a duel. Litterally cutting grass under his feet, that's a very smart move. At least it's how I understood the scene.
@@branlotin does yabushige know buntaro is there watching at that moment, though? it seems completely unplanned that he suddenly decides to teach blackthorne, and whilst he does it scathingly he does also impart a minor lesson rather than simply demonstrating how truly beneath contempt he would be in a duel to any onlookers
@DaveDexterMusic no, but in samurai culture, he who wears a sword is bound by its laws. Dude was spared an execution simply because he tucked. No honor.
They really nerfed Blackthorne in this series. Blackthorne in the novel is educated, experienced, intelligent, and worldly; above all he's a survivor. I'm left wondering why Toranaga like this guy? Why is Mariko attracted to this guy? He spends most of his time moping around, and his learning seems to have plateaued. He's not getting particularly better at Japanese, and he's not seemingly actively interested in doing so. He's not being assimilated into Japanese culture, which happen to him in the novel, and is what happens to the real William Adams upon which he is based. Blackthorne was more multidimensional in the novel; there was more to him that just the knowledge he had that was useful to Toranaga. He was a rebel, a wildcard, and an outsider in a time and place where society was very formalized and rigid. He can get away with things others can't, and take actions others wouldn't conceive of, because he's a outsider with his own manners of behaviour and philosophies. And before someone says it, no he was not portrayed as a saviour who becomes a perfect Samurai and solves everyone's problems in the novel. He spent the overwhelming majority of his time in the novel at the mercy of events outside of his control, and was at the whim of multiple Japanese characters.
Possibly the novel emphasis Blackthorns' integral part in this timeline in Japan to the point of whitewashing history. Perhaps the writers of this show wanted to present a more 'realistic' representation of Shogunate Japan. Just my theory at least. I'll be honest as a white male I do find it rather annoying in historical based cinema's of a white guy just showing up and saving the day.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 I thought I was being quite reasonable. However you seem to have interpreted it differently. I don't wish to continue the conversation any further.
@@W.LL1999 Then you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm saying this is what you are doing. Have you read the novel? If you haven't, I highly recommend it.
I understand that he doesn't know how to use a katana, but I doubt he doesn't know how to use a sword or how to defend himself in a fight. In Asia there is the idea that Europeans only used cannons and rifles and had no idea about martial arts, this depends on the time when European martial arts became obsolete since armor could not stop bullets but European fencing was never stopped practicing especially if you were a sailor.
Except he is using a Katana which is likely he is not familiar and even if he use it it won't be matter to someone who trained to use Katana and He will likely more familiar to European swords
Based on the way he initially holds it, it seems like whatever prior experience or training he has is in something designed to pierce (like a rapier). If he wasn't just relying more on his pistols, he would probably know something much shorter and easier to use in a ship's interior, so the length and weight of a Katana would still be foreign to him.
Absolutely. This is one thing I believe they got wrong historically. His claim that he knows nothing of "infantry tactics" when in fact, naval warfare at the time was largely just land warfare from the deck of a ship. Its the origination of the Marines. And not knowing how to use a Cutlass? And not just a merchant seaman but a Privateer? Master and Commander which was historically accurate showed that when ships closed...even the Doctor fought with Pistol, cutlass and boarding axe.
That isnt true, the last time naval doctrine was "land warfare from the deck of a ship" was during the roman empire. By this point close quarter combat on ships was avoided in the majority of cases due to its chaos. @@vincentgilbert8550
@@ronanchristiana.belleza9270 Typical katana is 39 inches from tip to kashira. They're not that much different from a cutlass. For a two handed sword they're rather short. The only difference is the wrapping of the handle.
Sailors of the time should be trained for war. Samurai attacked a few nanban ships and paid a heavy price. Don't like that they effectively made John a civilian.
Agreed that, according to the story, Blackthorne has definitely seen his share of ship battles and maybe raids before this. Whether or not it was ranged or hand-to-hand was unclear. I'm not a swordsman myself, but it doesn't look like John is a civilian, but unskilled in using a two-handed katana. He was holding the katana in a one-handed rapier/fencing stance. And he's knowledgeable enough to know he doesn't stand a chance against a trained katana user, doesn't know what is going on, and doesn't want to give off the sense they're fighting for real.
This is very incorrect. Sailors did not recieve significant weapons training. They would at best be taught to use axes an MAYBE a cutlass, and even then it was about how to hack. They weren't taught swordplay. If John had wealthy and/or noble upbringing he might have rapier training.fdff Further more, most blades in europe by this point were relatively light one-handers, the closest equivalent in europe to a katana would be the longsword which had fallen out of use about 100 years before this takes place. It's why john immediately stands with one arm out and his body turned sideways: At the very least he is aware of how an englishman would hold a sword. Transitioning that to a 2-handed weapon however would not be instinctive as everything from the grips to legg and footwork would be different.
because the europeans had superior gunpowder weapons and training, and because a katana and armor are not ideal for sea combat John has never used a katana before, he holds it like a thin european piercing sword, which was the style of 1600
This scene is totally unbelievable. A ship with Letters of Marque by definition is a war ship. Every member of the ship would be expected to be proficient in the use of arms. A sword is a sword. He would have been able to at least adapt a bit better than that.
Truthfully, at this point in history, English sailors would've been more proficient in sword fighting and the use of pole arms than the English infantry who had long ago switched to pike & shot tactics. Naval warfare would be dominated by the cutlass and its descendants along with pistols and the occasional longarm for centuries. Portraying a seasoned sailor such as Blackthorne as martially incompetent is such an odd move.
Two-handed blades were for infantry and required a different kind of training and specialty, as you can see he holds it one handed like a cutlass or rapier he's accustomed to, the length and weight of the Katana certainly threw him off. It seems anyway that he's much more proficient with cannons and guns anyway.
Its just the media trope of the clueless white guy who can't do anything and has to learn everything he knows from backwards indigenous tribes like hes a newborn baby
They Neutered him. Making him not battle-worthy. And they didn't stick to Tradition by Not giving us a white vs Samurai fight like in The Last Samurai.
The lost irony of this scene and what the author James Clavell likely didn't adequately understand himself at the time of his writing Shogun was that a TRUE Elizabethan "John Blackthorn" who was supposedly a veteran Elizabethan pirate turned Anglo-Japanese adventurer in the novel? Would've had a very good grasp of sword, dagger, or pole arm fighting....just not perhaps in the highly formal Asian systemized way that a Japenese samurai would've been. And a REAL "John Blackthorne" would've fought much more down and dirty. Using whatever weapon was at his disposal certainly, but would've had a better than an unarmed commoner's education in edged weapon useage. Because edged weapons would've been a day to day facet of a REAL "John Blackthornes" 16th-17th century life. In short?? A real "John Blackthorne" wouldn't have been dependent solely on his pistols to kill someone. That someone including a Japanese samurai. So the over dramatic "John Blackthorne being in awe of "superior" Japanese swordsmanship" trope portrayed in the show? Is exactly that. A well worn fictional trope. One that was once used by authors and media at the time Clavell wrote his Asian novels to help sell their works and the "mysteries of the Far East". A trope that has worked quite well since at least the early 20th century and one that's largely been accepted as normal in today's media. But a fictional....not HISTORICAL....honesty.
In general, East Asian martial arts (both armed and unarmed) have largely been pretty subpar compared to Europeans. The millennia of continuous warfare in the west has refined their fighting methods to a pretty high degree. Admittedly, Japan in the Sengoku Jidai is probably the only time and place in East Asian history where that might not have been true... But certainly a European fighting man would not have been this awful with a sword.
@AUniqueHandleName444 Indeed. But sadly. Due to the Wests fascination with what it's viewed as "ancient and mysterious"....instead of "ancient and stagnated"....there is still a predilection for Westerners to lack understanding or have any regard for their own martial arts history and culture...and rush instead to embrace East Asian martial arts history and culture that, while certainly colorful and vibrant, is really either not that different from Western or is different enough in a negative manner to be inferior or worth discarding. Something which I think occurred more frequently in the West than East, historically speaking. Because it seems that in the West, as technology evolved? Anything military that proved ineffective or incapable of evolving into improved capability? Was rapidly discarded for something better. While in the East? Such things only evolved so far, and no furthur, but were still being taught as martial arts gospel in dojo's, academies, and schools throughout civilized Asia....well into the 20th or even our 21st centuries. Long after, they'd ceased to be effective for anything other than displaying a given students athletic capability.
@@AUniqueHandleName444that is not remotely accurate historically at all, Europeans had a few conflicts with East Asians and lost quite many, even complimenting East Asian weapons and techniques. During the 20th century, the West was greatly impressed by Eastern martial arts particularly that in Japan, especially with the influence of judo and jujutsu influence in the West.
@@ravenrise320the West had a fascination for the East because it was foreign and the East has a fascination with the West in a similar manner. For most of History it was the East that have been more technology progressive and advanced, Eastern martial arts are not constantly innovative.
you're saying that, sword for sword, blackthorne would have been evenly matched against a samurai because of his background in piracy? "a better than an unarmed commoner's education in edged weapon useage" is certainly not equal to "could defend himself against someone like yabushige". it's also worth bearing in mind that by this point, blackthorne is beginning to integrate into japanese culture both consciously and unconsciously, and would be aware that the samurai is brutally inducting him into his own culture's swordplay rather than actually wanting to fight perhaps your rejection of the trope - that far eastern martial techniques and training is presented in media as much more dangerous and unstoppable than it truly is - is as much a trope in itself, a tired retconning of something which has no reason not to be true but which you've decided is for, frankly, poorly explained reasons
This is one bit of the series’s that I didn’t care for. Blackthorne had led men into battle on land dozens of time. Not to mention ship boarding/fighting generally was a lot more brutal than the pike and shot block formation style warfare common to the time.
John Blackthorne in the book had been fighting at sea his entire life and had also taken part in land battles in the Netherlands. He states that he is more familiar with cutlass and knife than anything. So while he may be less competent with this type of weapon he certainly knew how to fight. So the only explanation would be that he was pretending not to. But why? Kashigi knew that he had been tough enough to cross oceans in a little wooden ship so would hardly expect him to be weak.
Boohoo white savior loses to Asian masterclass samurai. That's impossible I've been told all my life that Asians are weak and feminine and need a white savior to help them boohoo
Inbuilt prejudice can cloud logic; the implications regarding the skill and toughness of a man who survived two years at sea can easily be lost if you've a bone-deep understanding that you're a superior race of human and he's a savage uncivilized barbarian.
@@ZlarelIronic because that's how whites think about the Japanese. Don't try to spin it to where you're the oppressed ones lol. The entire book of shogun is one big prejudice orientalist novel. Get real
@@Squintel7 You don’t know what you’re talking about. At this time most men in Europe were trained to fight since a young age too, since wars were common and it was necessary for protecting your family etc. a man with over a decade of military experience and training wouldn’t be so inept with a blade. Clearly you’ve never done any type of sword training in your life. If you can wield a one handed sword like blackthorne WOULD have been trained in since he was a privateer, you can be reasonably skilled in using a katana. You can wield them 1 handed pretty easily and the fundamentals of swordsmanship don’t change. While he wouldn’t be as proficient as a samurai who trains regularly with a katana he also wouldn’t be a complete novice and would be still pretty skilled. It’s not like he’s gonna lose all his skill and understand of weaponry because hUh DuH kAtAnA hAs tWo hAnDs
Utter BS. An experienced seventeenth century Elizabethan sailor, a pirate by definition, would have good command of bladed weapons such as cutlasses, cut-and-thrust swords and, if a gentleman or has pretenses of being such, rapiers. A katana is different, yes. But not so dissimilar to a cutlass that Blackthorne would be helpless. Period samurai coming up against period Spanish, Portuguese and English sailors got their rears kicked on at least a 50-50 basis. After a few encounters between Japanese wokou and Spanish troops in the Philippines, Spanish sword-and-buckler men were especially respected as opponents. This "white man can't use sword" trope is ridiculously overdone. Unless, of course, Blackthorne is faking the whole thing in order to appear weaker than he is.
Okay leaving the accuracy of this particular fight cuz I don't know enough about those kind of sailors. However you are not correct here, that encounter with wokou and Spanish troops in the Philippines likely didn't happen, even two sources that talk about the event do not match the common story spread around the internet, "sword and buckler" I'm guessing you're talking about Rodeleros, who didn't use the butler but a large shield but those kinds of troops were already long gone decades before that event. Not to mention these kinds of pirates were often not Japanese and the far away you get from Japan the less Japanese those pirates tend to be. "Cagayan Battles of 1582: Debunking the Hoax" "Samurai Pirates Against the Spanish Empire?Sep 11, 2020" "¿Tercios vs. samuráis? Mito y realidad sobre los combates de Cagayán" Japanese mercenaries working as bodyguards and soldiers were employed a lot by Europeans (and SE kingdoms) having a highly respectable reputation. If he is faking then... What does it matter.
@@eagle162 There is no one "encounter with wokou" to talk about. There is an entire history of Spanish and Portuguese and English involvement in the Pacific during this period. You can argue about numbers and specific engagements. However, the Cagayan battles take place in 1582. The fictional narrative of "Shogun" takes place around 1600. Spanish rodeleros are period, English sword and buckler fighting is period, rapiers and cutlasses are every day go-to weapons. Modern-day notions of obsolescence will not exist for another three centuries. Whatever happens with the rapidly evolving composition of continental European armies of the day, the skills are still around and they are still used all over the place. We need go no farther than Shakespeare's instructions for Romeo and Juliet, where, in the opening scene, Sampson and Gregory enter armed with sword and buckler. "Gregory, remember thy swashing blow" is a reference to a specific sword-and-buckler technique. The bottom line is that Europeans of that day and age were just as capable in a sword fight as Japanese. They could and did face and defeat Japanese opponents, and they also could and did lose to them on occasion. The Portuguese certainly employed Japanese ronin, but not because they were themselves helpless. Every culture involved in those period contacts had its own fine swordsmen, its own tradition of excellent swordmaking. The modern-day movie trope of "samurai is superman, Europeans have no sword art, white man can't use sword" is what I object to. Never, in any film involving the subject, have I seen a realistic treatment.
@@משה-ב1טyes and typically had mercenaries or native forces helping them often outnumber the European forces. And I gave sources as to why cagayan battles are not good examples, even the sources to which there are two in existence do not align with a popular story on the internet. Again rodeleros would not exist at this point anymore and would not have used Butler but much larger Shields, rapier was a civilians dueling weapon, rarely ever use on the battlefield. Why are you talking about Shakespeare. It's just a play. Or that the Portuguese (I said Europeans it was not only the Portuguese that did that) were helpless, but that they considered the Japanese to be great warriors. I didn't say European swordsmanship was worse or that Samurai were superhuman, but that neither were superior to the other.
@@eagle162 It is not "just a play", it is a period cultural artifact, demonstrating the context of the day. Regardless of whether or not Spanish armies fighting on the European continent included men formally enlisted as rodeleros or not, the skills or sword-and-shield and sword-and-buckler fighting were in common circulation, the weapons were in common circulation, all the stuff is period and was around during the multiple battles fought between European and Asian people during this time. What you are saying is similar to arguing that, because revolvers are no longer issued to European troops, revolvers are therefore not used by anyone. At any rate, we agree on the main point -- to portray Europeans of the day as universally unskilled with swords or lacking swordsmanship is BS.
So…a pirate pilot of a globe spanning merchant/warship of 1600 doesn’t know how to use a sword? Yeah, it’s a katana, not a rapier, arming sword, cutlass, or hanger, I get it. That said, he has Z E R O knowledge of edged weapons? Suspension of disbelief is over, the premise is BS.
Ah yes a guy also trained in sword loses, because reasons. Guy would have literally moved the sword out of the swing and thrust. Oh wait, British, white, and male.... Ooohhh realistic to this time period, not that one.
There's no need to 'defend' John or state the scene is historically incorrect because he would have some skills. Trust a scene where a white man fights a Japanese Samurai to be a hotbed of western fans and japanese fans both engaging in chest-thumping. This comment section is a cesspool. Putting that aside, the most historically inaccurate thing about the scene applies to pretty much the entire show (and the book and 1980s series) too. Samurai rarely drew their weapons in public. Threatening or hurting others with a katana in particular was a serious offence and it was considered uncouth to even partially draw the blade if there was no serious intent to use it. And killing a man with said katana without due process was a capital offence, regardless of rank. Here and in the rest of the show we see samurai drawing their blades at the slightest provocation. But I merely comment on it. It's an acceptable degree of creative liberty.
the rapier stance was perfect. If you are not history buff you do know, but rapier was far superior than katana. and there is real battle to proove it.
before people say the show was saying that john couldnt use a sword, he can just look at how he holds it also a katana is very differnt from what john would have used
All these morons in the comments thinking that John lost so easily because of a lack in sword skill. It's because he has no idea what exactly Yabu wants him to do. He deduces that Yabu wants him the draw the sword, hold it with two hands, then pick it back up after Yabu knocks it out of his hands, but doesn't know what Yabu's goal is. Is he trying to toy with John before killing him? They both look at the pot before the sequence starts, which is the thing Yabu used to needlessly (from John's pov) kill one of the sailors. That wasn't done for no reason, it was to connect that scene to this one. John is starting to pick up that this is some sort of training/lesson, but Buntaro interrupts this by drawing his blade to the defenseless Blackthorne's throat with murder in his eyes. Blackthorne at this point is completely confused and doesn't know how to react. Is this part of Yabu's lesson? Does Buntaro want Blackthorne to fight back in this "sparring session"? Or is Buntaro straight up trying to kill John, and for some reason he hasn't already done it.
In 1902 or so two ninjas were sent to kill an ambassador of Russian Empire. They were both butchered by an old veteran-cossack who was serving there as a gardener. So, samurais were really cool against the paisans, but in the industrial world they would probably suck…
I did not like that scene at all. Blackthorne is an experienced Naval Officer, he would have known how to use a sword of any type at least in the basics. The character he is based on was fighting with Francis Drake before going on a Dutch ship, he had a lot of fight experience for sure. From personal experience: A Rapier or Saber can do fight very well against a Katana. Same for the style, i did Kendo a lot of years and met a Hema guy, i fought with his sword, completely different from a katana hold and i did not that bad against him. So, if you know any type of fencing, you will be O.K. fighting a different style to some point. They made him look bad with that.
Samurai were highly trained land warriors. Buntaro himslef took on an armed mob and escaped. Of course Blackthorne was experienced in fighting as well, but not in the same caliber as a Samurai whose whole life is land warfare. I think the scene is showing the vulnerabilities of the character which is necessary for good character development and arc. This is not Disney Star Wars where Rey was born a Jedi Master 😂.
Agree 100%. The Samurai were the worlds greatest swordsmen. Even the art of drawing the Katana from the sheath was a conscious act to be done the right way. Blackthorn had zero chance against a trained Samurai even if he knew how to use a cutlass.
This scene made no sense to me. The show had already established that Blackthorne could fight in melee combat back in the forest battle scene. If he's capable of using a naginata that he shouldn't be nearly as useless at wielding a katana or fighting melee generally. Sure no ones expecting him to be really proficient but there's no way he should be getting immediately disarmed with no effort. In the original 1980 show he states he has fought in two land battles in the past, but as I've not read the book I don't know if it's true there as well.
Yeah, he would have been a lot less familiar with a katana vs a naginata (since the naginata is closer to European polearms than the katana is to European swords), but not THIS bad. A reasonably bright person who is physically active and has seen someone with a sword in general would be better than he was.
Two-handed blades were for infantry and required a different kind of training and specialty, as you can see he holds it one handed like a cutlass or rapier he's accustomed to, the length and weight of the Katana certainly threw him off. It seems anyway that he's much more proficient with cannons and guns anyway. Plus he didn't understand Yabushige was trying to train him, just thought that he was about to be executed.
@@Fluffy_Monarch You can wield a katana single-handedly, even the author of the Book of Five Rings liked the sword/dagger combination and he was alive around the time this is set.
We in the 21st century have become besotted with the stylised fighting of the Japanese samurai .It never changed in 600 years whereas we had gone from Cutlass to sabre to rapier to foil and different swords for different jobs . No matter how good they were in Japan they were in a rut of their own making
This version of Blackthorn is too weak and complacent. Almost woke at being the inferior caucasian. Much preferred the original actor who didn't give in so much.
The subtly disturbing thing to me here is that the pot is uncovered and someone is stoking the cauldron with wood...meaning its going to be used again soon...
That's not a trope and I've never heard that once ever on the internet. You're just making things up because you got offended a white guy in a film got embarrassed/bullied by a non-white guy. Grow up.
@@W.LL1999 Why would an experienced naval officer of the 17th century be so clumsy and sheepish with a sword, to the point that even drawing it from a scabbard looked like he'd never held a weapon before?
Well, im seriously in lust with Mariko. With that out of the way. If you recall, Mariko was going through the ships log and saw how many towns they sacked, burned people alive, etc. They killed a lot of people on their journey. Just because John didn't know the fighting style doesn't mean he couldn't handle himself in a fight.
@@izmirs. most sailors would have some melee combat experience especially around this time frame when pistols and rifles were single shot, when boarding a vessel you gonna have to use a melee weapon axe or sword you don't got time to reload your guns.
@@DustinDonald-cz9ot yeah but only some, and their opponent is mostly other sailor, who is as untrained as them, a sailor's fighting skill would be pretty poor if you compare them to actual soldier.
Le´s not forget he is from England, we didn´t use Katanas in Europe back in 16-17th century, so he is probably more used to fight with a sabre or a rapier or just with his pistols. So my point is, he has no clue how to hold and use a Katana.
I personally hope next season he’ll actually know how to use it and speak the language better (some say there won’t be a next season because of where the book ends but let’s be real there not gonna let it end here there gonna make new seasons based on historical events it’s to big to let it end here )
The spanish and the portuguese had very good swordsmen and with a rapier some did kill Samurai in duels. Within Japan were many different schools of fighting. But such was the case in Europe also. Now a lowly sailor that was from a lower class background maybe would not know how to fight, but again maybe he might. The Katana is a pointed curved slashing sword that is very thick and sharp. Be interesting to see someone trained on the rapier try out a katana. Toledo made swords of very good steel and some japanese went to spain to look into Toledo steel.
@@snowshock8958 Given a weapon of his choice, he'd wipe the floor with most Japanese fighting men. The difference in Japanese vs European martial prowess was night and day in favor of the Europeans.
@@AUniqueHandleName444 so you were talking about John… no he won’t. John would get destroyed by any samurai shown in the show. We can clearly see he doesn't know how to fight. Where did it said he had fighting, weapons training? I give you the answer nowhere!
@@AUniqueHandleName444 the difference of martial prowess between Japanese vs European is just your opinions. There is no real life historical duels or war between those countries.
There was a well known Gallowglass that worked for the Portuguese. Butched every hostile Japanese swordsman or man at arms that came at him. His comment, you shouldn't send a carpenter to fight a professional soldier.
@benpage5088 The Gallowglass in question was Irish from Galloway. They liked a glaive as pole arm. They also specialised in dual wielding swords . Master Hegarty liked the combination of rapier and dussack!
It’s important to remember that at that time the average Japanese man at arms would have been a foot shorter and several dozen pounds lighter than their European counterparts. With significantly less muscle tone.
And that's why Westerners brought superior firearms and cannon to sword fights. Tech almost always beats heart. Sad, but true. Just ask the great Saigo Takamori (one of my favorite personalities in all of human history) and Admiral Perry. And those fine Japanese gentlemen wouldn't be so quick to talk shxt to Miyamoto Bennosuke. Lol.
Queen Elizabeth I. She dies in 1603, 3 years after the Battle of Sekigahara, where Tokugawa Ieyasu (the model for Toranaga) beats his rivals and ends the Sengoku era.
Actor playing kashigi either has studied some serious japanese sword schools, or he really did hs homework, because how he drew his weapon was specific to a certain sword school, if I'm not mistaken. TH-camr Shogo's Sensei is master of said school, unless i am wrong. Buntaro's actor, however, learned to sheathe his sword from movies and video games, it seems.
So... Let me tell you what most people are looking for in a duel here jack.. 😂 I thought something way different was gonna happen Maybe use Sabre manual/doctrine with a foreign curved sword and it would be an interesting clash of martial abilities but... Nope basically how all the sword fights go between my toddler and his oldest brother 😂😂😂
By episode 8, I am seriously getting frustrated that they don't comb this f*ckin guys hair. It makes no sense that they would spend all this time making sure he is dressed just right for what the situations etiquette calls for, but comb his hair? No-- that would be too much. They obviously cut his hair/trim his beard or else it would be grown way out by this point so what the hell? I don't know why this is the thing that is bothering me so much.
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what is the song called playing at the end?
I like how the swords don't go SHWING when drawn, but have a woody sound as their scabbards are made of wood.
Yeah, that's a nice detail. Scabbards IRL don't generally produce that sound when drawing unless they're designed to, it's mostly Hollywood's SFX. Glad they bucked the trend here.
Actually sounds cooler this way IMO
I was just going to comment on the nice attention to detail from the sound design folks, but I find you've beaten me to it. Having come across a fair number of Japanese swords of several eras, I can attest that drawing and re-sheathing from a wood 'saya' shouldn't be noisy at all. Smoothness and proper fit of the scabbard is, on the contrary, quite the point of pride for those who craft the things. Maybe a little /clink/ from the copper, bronze or sometimes silver or gold blade collar fitting at the scabbard mouth...
The katana’s are real
what a nitpick good lord
"This appears to be occurring..."
LOL
😄
you can take the man out of England, but can't take England out of the man lol
"i see what this is..."
Every expat thinks this at least once a week.
what does that means
Asano Tadanobu’s performance in this thing is so good. This is an extremely common, but little-appreciated, type of Japanese guy - a bluff, crude, beardy oaf whose number one friendship-building strategy is to make obscene, ironic remarks and smack you in the head when you’re not paying attention. More than half the people I know are like this, and I love them all.
...you been smacked in the head a lot, huh?
@@Mr.BednaRLOL
@@兵制男児 In Japanese it's ROR.
More than half the people you know? So, the women too?
@@timonsolus Most of the people I know are men, but yes, I do know two or three lady Yabushiges. Their beards are purely metaphorical.
"This appears to be occurring"
and that's now a daily for me.
Blackthorne is not Nathan Algren of Last Samurai. He’s not going to learn how to use Japanese blade in a few weeks.
If anything, he'll at least learn the language as fast as Algren.
The problem is he acts like he has no idea how to wield any blade whatsoever, or has any fighting ability at all....
Algren's character wasn't in Katsumoto's village for weeks, he was there for months. He was also a multi-battle experienced cavalry officer. Unlike many of Katsumoto's men, he's actually experienced large scale military combat multiple times.
He was repeatedly shown as having his backside handed to him in Japanese sword combat, but applied himself to learn.
He certainly didn't flop around like a mouse who'd never touched a blade before.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 Actually he holds the Katana like you would do a Rapier, which he is probably somewhat familiar with as it was a common sword in Europe at the time. A Rapier has a different handle which allows for the kind of grip he is using. With a Katana such a Grip is nonsense. Also, he is a Sailor with Pistoles as his preferred weapon. So probably doesn't have too much sword-fighting knowledge.
@@marvinamann4969
Yes, and it's laughable how he holds it so loosely that he's easily disarmed with very little effort. Even his drawing of the sword looks clumsy and awkward, like he's never handled a sword before.
Sure, he has pistols, and likes them as weapons, however within the historical context to suggest that a sea faring man would not be well adept at using a blades weapon is very unlikely.
Frankly it's a badly written and executed scene. What purpose does it serve in furthering the plot? What are we supposed to take away from it?
Unfortunately Blackthorne seems to have been nerfed in this adaptation in a number of ways compared to the novel. He's really no longer portrayed as an intelligent and adaptive person, one who uses said intelligence and a lot of open minded curiosity to learn to adapt and survive. It's unfortunate, and unnecessary.
Yabushige is such an idiot but I love him. 😂
"You would've died if I wasn't here."
He's an awesome character
He’s my favourite character…he’s just adorable
@@strider9184 His grunts and sighs are hilarious.
he's a cowardly bully kind of character. Like a boy in an adult Samurai body. Very nonchalant about life and death.
I was laughing the whole series cuz Yabu-sama reminded me so much of a wise-cracking half-crazed arrogant _sama_ from some *anime!*
I love how he was holding it like a cutlass
He's a sailor how else is he going to hold a sword he's not trained in? You revert to what you know.
@@joebloggs5318 that's literally what I was implying? I love that he's holding a sword in a way he's always used to.
@@joebloggs5318you’re trying to be argumentative for no reason
I mean, an edge is an edge. If he used his instincts for the cutlass, he'd be able hold his own for a bit
@@nirmaljacob3968 mostly, yes, but the weight distribution is far more different. With the katana being more top heavy than a cutlass, one handing it like one would be a bit awkward.
Plus, we don’t know how often Blackthorne even used a cutless. Let alone use it against a skilled swordsman
I like how he initially holds it like a rapier for a fencing euro style fencing duel , which would make sense. then he immediately corrects it to "two hands" and yeah, Europeans had two handed swords before this and were familiar with this. People tend to forget that martial arts were as common and developed in the west. Not to throw shade on japanese here.
You’re gonna made a lot of weaboos mad by saying that
@@seanmccullough3863 nippon steel folded 10k times cut by euro greatsword
Ships are cramped environments, even moreso during boarding actions. For mariners like him, a cutlass or a rapier would be more preferred (and practical) weapons, not necessarily two handed swords. They need at least one hand to grasp objects aboard ship (masts, ropes and loot, among other things), when aboard or boarding other ships. If they are well equipped, even use pistols before engaging in melee. A free hand makes for a versatile tool, allowing mariners flexibility especially during emergencies.
Japanese Katana's are a unique two handed sword differing in design from the European Blades. Instead of two cutting surfaces, a Katana only has one cutting surface, with the cutting edge being hardened and the back being a bit softer to allow the blade to take some blows during an exchange. Put shortly, John doesn't know how to use a Katana because he isn't an anime character.
The wests martial arts were pony compared to the east. Lol. Muay Thai? Judo? Karate? No such thing in the west.
I love how when hes told to draw his sword, he starts to reluctantly balance on his backfoot in a classic western rapier stance before being told off. Such a small detail but it adds so much to the scene
Another explanation of Blackthorne’s embarrassing performance here is that he doesn’t fully realize that Yabushige is giving him a lesson and not trying to kill him. He doesn’t understand his words and considering Yabushiges past actions and violent tendencies it isn’t out of the question that he might just finally butcher him out of spite.
He might be faking it, he was a privateer after all.
@@peenoice5176 I think that's the case, he showed no hesitation in impaling that Ninja with his Katana
Blackthorne of the series is VERY different from Blackthorne in the book. In book, at this point Blackthorne already understood quite well, what his position is and what he can and cannot do, and that being meek is seen as way bigger disgrace than being confident. Blackthorne despised Yabushige and while he understood their terms of cooperation quite well, he also showed his disdain quite often. Also, he was not acting cowardly and was quite capable of a fighter.
Bro just starts yelling at you in a foreign language draws his sword and attacks you like tf is going on man?? 😂😂
@@bvhia That is the point. In the book, at this point in the story Blackthorne knew that if samurai wants to kill him, he will. Nothing he can do about it. Plus he knew enough japanese already and established relation with Yabushige to a point that this depiction in the show is simply "Blackthorne of the books but the other way around"
Blackthorn is clearly faking it. Man is a seasoned privateer who raided dozens of Portuguese ports he absolutely knows "the blade from the handle". But it's smart to let the Japanese think he does not, especially given how this episode was all about deception and appearing weak when strong.
He wields that sword like a saber or a rapier. He's just not used to katanas.
And as a Pilot I doubt he did much melee combat.
Cutlass, rapier, dagger, pike, axe... these were the usuall weapons of an european sailor. A 2-hand long sword/katana was a land infantry weapon, requiring diferent skills.
@@VDA19 You can wield a katana in one hand. It's actually rather short. In that regard it is like a messer or falchion.
@@jlvfr Kenjutsu and hema have the same fundamentals. At the end of the day a sharpened iron bar is a sharpened iron bar
@@The_Gallowglasseh, those would have different weight distrubutions and such which would make the blade feel different, its not like putting on another pair of shoes and immediately running a sprint
-"What are you doing?"
-"What are YOU doing?"
No, what ARRRRRRRe you doing!?
Probably not a Pirates of the Caribbean reference, but I thought it was funny.
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Tadanobu Asano is such an awesome addition to this show! I've followed his work since Ichi the Killer.
John and Kashigi are the same. They're both just soilders who are both caught and trapped in the politics. I believe that if they were together and if they thought Toranaga was in danger they would fight to the death side by side having each other's back. Obviously, Kashiga is higher ranked and all that. That's not what I meant. I just meant, they share common things about them. That's all I meant.
Kashigi boiled alive one of his crew alive. And not even for any decent reason.
Thats a way to sour a relationship…
Kashige is way more cunning for a simple soldier
Thank you for telling us what you meant.
Genghis Khan teaching an Englishman on how to wield a katana...
😂😂😂😂
Japan defeated the Mongols 3 times 😂
@@OlBlow-qv6oz Jin Sakai defeat Mongols on Tsushima alone.
@@OlBlow-qv6oz2
@OlBlow-qv6oz tbf, the weather defeated the Mongols twice. Iirc, hurricanes destroyed the Mongol fleet twice.
It actually caused a huge resurgence in religion in Japan, many had ceased believing, but this happening twice convinced many that the gods were real.
Buntaro is a legend, but he would have to commit seppuku if he were to kill John Blackthorne, as it would be a disservice to Lord Toranaga.
honestly still can't be sure whether Yabushige is trying to humiliate Blackthorne or teach him a hard lesson. or both, of course
He understands Buntaro wants to kill John, and he choses to expose John's lack of swordmanship so that it would be a dishonor for a samuraï of Buntaro's level to challenge John in a duel. Litterally cutting grass under his feet, that's a very smart move. At least it's how I understood the scene.
@@branlotin Finally someone explained it!
@@branlotin does yabushige know buntaro is there watching at that moment, though? it seems completely unplanned that he suddenly decides to teach blackthorne, and whilst he does it scathingly he does also impart a minor lesson rather than simply demonstrating how truly beneath contempt he would be in a duel to any onlookers
@@branlotinBut he didn’t even know Buntaro was watching.
@DaveDexterMusic no, but in samurai culture, he who wears a sword is bound by its laws. Dude was spared an execution simply because he tucked. No honor.
Well that escalated rather quickly.
Context is everything. He is unfamiliar in that environment and hence why so vulnerable
0:28 my favorite moment from this interaction 😂😂
They really nerfed Blackthorne in this series.
Blackthorne in the novel is educated, experienced, intelligent, and worldly; above all he's a survivor.
I'm left wondering why Toranaga like this guy? Why is Mariko attracted to this guy? He spends most of his time moping around, and his learning seems to have plateaued. He's not getting particularly better at Japanese, and he's not seemingly actively interested in doing so. He's not being assimilated into Japanese culture, which happen to him in the novel, and is what happens to the real William Adams upon which he is based.
Blackthorne was more multidimensional in the novel; there was more to him that just the knowledge he had that was useful to Toranaga. He was a rebel, a wildcard, and an outsider in a time and place where society was very formalized and rigid. He can get away with things others can't, and take actions others wouldn't conceive of, because he's a outsider with his own manners of behaviour and philosophies.
And before someone says it, no he was not portrayed as a saviour who becomes a perfect Samurai and solves everyone's problems in the novel. He spent the overwhelming majority of his time in the novel at the mercy of events outside of his control, and was at the whim of multiple Japanese characters.
Possibly the novel emphasis Blackthorns' integral part in this timeline in Japan to the point of whitewashing history. Perhaps the writers of this show wanted to present a more 'realistic' representation of Shogunate Japan. Just my theory at least. I'll be honest as a white male I do find it rather annoying in historical based cinema's of a white guy just showing up and saving the day.
@@W.LL1999
Have you ever read the novel? Because that's not what happens whatsoever.
The people trying to portray that are frankly being dishonest.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 I thought I was being quite reasonable. However you seem to have interpreted it differently. I don't wish to continue the conversation any further.
@@W.LL1999
Then you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm saying this is what you are doing.
Have you read the novel? If you haven't, I highly recommend it.
@@W.LL1999
Further questions:
In the FX adaptation, why does Toranaga like Blackthorne?
Why is Mariko attracted to him?
love how John holds it like a saber, you know what he would normally be using lol.
it is a saber...
@@johnwotek3816 no thats a katana my dude
@@lelouche25 A katana is a saber...
I like how he starts by holding it like an englishman would at this time, like a rapier
Man fought Raiden and lived to tell the tail. I call that a win.
I do hope to see John using a rapier or cutlass, to show them he can be deadly efficient in a fight
Sailors didn't really use rapiers all that much. A cutlass and main gauche would see that Japanese guy left for dead.
@@joebloggs5318 doubt, sailor aren't trained swordman, these guy are, regardless of what sword that white guy use he would still be death.
Always saddened me that Kashigi Yuba is so treacherous. I like his character, just wish he had a pince more loyalty
I understand that he doesn't know how to use a katana, but I doubt he doesn't know how to use a sword or how to defend himself in a fight. In Asia there is the idea that Europeans only used cannons and rifles and had no idea about martial arts, this depends on the time when European martial arts became obsolete since armor could not stop bullets but European fencing was never stopped practicing especially if you were a sailor.
If he was a sailor during this time he would know how to use a blade.
Except he is using a Katana which is likely he is not familiar
and even if he use it it won't be matter to someone who trained to use Katana
and He will likely more familiar to European swords
Based on the way he initially holds it, it seems like whatever prior experience or training he has is in something designed to pierce (like a rapier).
If he wasn't just relying more on his pistols, he would probably know something much shorter and easier to use in a ship's interior, so the length and weight of a Katana would still be foreign to him.
Absolutely. This is one thing I believe they got wrong historically. His claim that he knows nothing of "infantry tactics" when in fact, naval warfare at the time was largely just land warfare from the deck of a ship. Its the origination of the Marines. And not knowing how to use a Cutlass? And not just a merchant seaman but a Privateer? Master and Commander which was historically accurate showed that when ships closed...even the Doctor fought with Pistol, cutlass and boarding axe.
That isnt true, the last time naval doctrine was "land warfare from the deck of a ship" was during the roman empire. By this point close quarter combat on ships was avoided in the majority of cases due to its chaos. @@vincentgilbert8550
@@ronanchristiana.belleza9270 Typical katana is 39 inches from tip to kashira. They're not that much different from a cutlass. For a two handed sword they're rather short. The only difference is the wrapping of the handle.
Sailors of the time should be trained for war. Samurai attacked a few nanban ships and paid a heavy price. Don't like that they effectively made John a civilian.
He's no civilian when he's behind a cannon
Agreed that, according to the story, Blackthorne has definitely seen his share of ship battles and maybe raids before this. Whether or not it was ranged or hand-to-hand was unclear. I'm not a swordsman myself, but it doesn't look like John is a civilian, but unskilled in using a two-handed katana. He was holding the katana in a one-handed rapier/fencing stance. And he's knowledgeable enough to know he doesn't stand a chance against a trained katana user, doesn't know what is going on, and doesn't want to give off the sense they're fighting for real.
Well he was holding it like a cutlass which indicates that he probably has some training.
This is very incorrect. Sailors did not recieve significant weapons training. They would at best be taught to use axes an MAYBE a cutlass, and even then it was about how to hack. They weren't taught swordplay. If John had wealthy and/or noble upbringing he might have rapier training.fdff
Further more, most blades in europe by this point were relatively light one-handers, the closest equivalent in europe to a katana would be the longsword which had fallen out of use about 100 years before this takes place.
It's why john immediately stands with one arm out and his body turned sideways: At the very least he is aware of how an englishman would hold a sword. Transitioning that to a 2-handed weapon however would not be instinctive as everything from the grips to legg and footwork would be different.
because the europeans had superior gunpowder weapons and training, and because a katana and armor are not ideal for sea combat
John has never used a katana before, he holds it like a thin european piercing sword, which was the style of 1600
This scene is totally unbelievable. A ship with Letters of Marque by definition is a war ship. Every member of the ship would be expected to be proficient in the use of arms. A sword is a sword. He would have been able to at least adapt a bit better than that.
Truthfully, at this point in history, English sailors would've been more proficient in sword fighting and the use of pole arms than the English infantry who had long ago switched to pike & shot tactics. Naval warfare would be dominated by the cutlass and its descendants along with pistols and the occasional longarm for centuries. Portraying a seasoned sailor such as Blackthorne as martially incompetent is such an odd move.
Two-handed blades were for infantry and required a different kind of training and specialty, as you can see he holds it one handed like a cutlass or rapier he's accustomed to, the length and weight of the Katana certainly threw him off. It seems anyway that he's much more proficient with cannons and guns anyway.
@phoenix71232 "white man"
@@Fluffy_Monarch katana is perfectly usable with one hand and a saber style, bit heavier than one would expect though.
Its just the media trope of the clueless white guy who can't do anything and has to learn everything he knows from backwards indigenous tribes like hes a newborn baby
They Neutered him. Making him not battle-worthy. And they didn't stick to Tradition by Not giving us a white vs Samurai fight like in The Last Samurai.
The lost irony of this scene and what the author James Clavell likely didn't adequately understand himself at the time of his writing Shogun was that a TRUE Elizabethan "John Blackthorn" who was supposedly a veteran Elizabethan pirate turned Anglo-Japanese adventurer in the novel?
Would've had a very good grasp of sword, dagger, or pole arm fighting....just not perhaps in the highly formal Asian systemized way that a Japenese samurai would've been.
And a REAL "John Blackthorne" would've fought much more down and dirty.
Using whatever weapon was at his disposal certainly, but would've had a better than an unarmed commoner's education in edged weapon useage.
Because edged weapons would've been a day to day facet of a REAL "John Blackthornes" 16th-17th century life.
In short??
A real "John Blackthorne" wouldn't have been dependent solely on his pistols to kill someone.
That someone including a Japanese samurai.
So the over dramatic "John Blackthorne being in awe of "superior" Japanese swordsmanship" trope portrayed in the show?
Is exactly that.
A well worn fictional trope.
One that was once used by authors and media at the time Clavell wrote his Asian novels to help sell their works and the "mysteries of the Far East".
A trope that has worked quite well since at least the early 20th century and one that's largely been accepted as normal in today's media.
But a fictional....not HISTORICAL....honesty.
In general, East Asian martial arts (both armed and unarmed) have largely been pretty subpar compared to Europeans. The millennia of continuous warfare in the west has refined their fighting methods to a pretty high degree. Admittedly, Japan in the Sengoku Jidai is probably the only time and place in East Asian history where that might not have been true... But certainly a European fighting man would not have been this awful with a sword.
@AUniqueHandleName444
Indeed.
But sadly.
Due to the Wests fascination with what it's viewed as "ancient and mysterious"....instead of "ancient and stagnated"....there is still a predilection for Westerners to lack understanding or have any regard for their own martial arts history and culture...and rush instead to embrace East Asian martial arts history and culture that, while certainly colorful and vibrant, is really either not that different from Western or is different enough in a negative manner to be inferior or worth discarding.
Something which I think occurred more frequently in the West than East, historically speaking.
Because it seems that in the West, as technology evolved?
Anything military that proved ineffective or incapable of evolving into improved capability?
Was rapidly discarded for something better.
While in the East?
Such things only evolved so far, and no furthur, but were still being taught as martial arts gospel in dojo's, academies, and schools throughout civilized Asia....well into the 20th or even our 21st centuries.
Long after, they'd ceased to be effective for anything other than displaying a given students athletic capability.
@@AUniqueHandleName444that is not remotely accurate historically at all, Europeans had a few conflicts with East Asians and lost quite many, even complimenting East Asian weapons and techniques.
During the 20th century, the West was greatly impressed by Eastern martial arts particularly that in Japan, especially with the influence of judo and jujutsu influence in the West.
@@ravenrise320the West had a fascination for the East because it was foreign and the East has a fascination with the West in a similar manner.
For most of History it was the East that have been more technology progressive and advanced, Eastern martial arts are not constantly innovative.
you're saying that, sword for sword, blackthorne would have been evenly matched against a samurai because of his background in piracy? "a better than an unarmed commoner's education in edged weapon useage" is certainly not equal to "could defend himself against someone like yabushige". it's also worth bearing in mind that by this point, blackthorne is beginning to integrate into japanese culture both consciously and unconsciously, and would be aware that the samurai is brutally inducting him into his own culture's swordplay rather than actually wanting to fight
perhaps your rejection of the trope - that far eastern martial techniques and training is presented in media as much more dangerous and unstoppable than it truly is - is as much a trope in itself, a tired retconning of something which has no reason not to be true but which you've decided is for, frankly, poorly explained reasons
This is one bit of the series’s that I didn’t care for. Blackthorne had led men into battle on land dozens of time. Not to mention ship boarding/fighting generally was a lot more brutal than the pike and shot block formation style warfare common to the time.
something about this show is so extremely done well
John Blackthorne in the book had been fighting at sea his entire life and had also taken part in land battles in the Netherlands. He states that he is more familiar with cutlass and knife than anything. So while he may be less competent with this type of weapon he certainly knew how to fight. So the only explanation would be that he was pretending not to. But why? Kashigi knew that he had been tough enough to cross oceans in a little wooden ship so would hardly expect him to be weak.
Boohoo white savior loses to Asian masterclass samurai. That's impossible I've been told all my life that Asians are weak and feminine and need a white savior to help them boohoo
Inbuilt prejudice can cloud logic; the implications regarding the skill and toughness of a man who survived two years at sea can easily be lost if you've a bone-deep understanding that you're a superior race of human and he's a savage uncivilized barbarian.
@@ZlarelIronic because that's how whites think about the Japanese. Don't try to spin it to where you're the oppressed ones lol. The entire book of shogun is one big prejudice orientalist novel. Get real
Samurai are raised to fight from birth, John also never saw a katana, stop with the fragility.
@@Squintel7
You don’t know what you’re talking about. At this time most men in Europe were trained to fight since a young age too, since wars were common and it was necessary for protecting your family etc. a man with over a decade of military experience and training wouldn’t be so inept with a blade. Clearly you’ve never done any type of sword training in your life. If you can wield a one handed sword like blackthorne WOULD have been trained in since he was a privateer, you can be reasonably skilled in using a katana. You can wield them 1 handed pretty easily and the fundamentals of swordsmanship don’t change. While he wouldn’t be as proficient as a samurai who trains regularly with a katana he also wouldn’t be a complete novice and would be still pretty skilled. It’s not like he’s gonna lose all his skill and understand of weaponry because hUh DuH kAtAnA hAs tWo hAnDs
Yabushige is the best character of the show, with the widest range of emotions.
Go watch ichi the killer, he plays kakihara , you can thank me later .
@@stephanielatreille6539 Holy sh*t, that's range.
Utter BS. An experienced seventeenth century Elizabethan sailor, a pirate by definition, would have good command of bladed weapons such as cutlasses, cut-and-thrust swords and, if a gentleman or has pretenses of being such, rapiers. A katana is different, yes. But not so dissimilar to a cutlass that Blackthorne would be helpless.
Period samurai coming up against period Spanish, Portuguese and English sailors got their rears kicked on at least a 50-50 basis. After a few encounters between Japanese wokou and Spanish troops in the Philippines, Spanish sword-and-buckler men were especially respected as opponents.
This "white man can't use sword" trope is ridiculously overdone. Unless, of course, Blackthorne is faking the whole thing in order to appear weaker than he is.
Okay leaving the accuracy of this particular fight cuz I don't know enough about those kind of sailors.
However you are not correct here, that encounter with wokou and Spanish troops in the Philippines likely didn't happen, even two sources that talk about the event do not match the common story spread around the internet, "sword and buckler" I'm guessing you're talking about Rodeleros, who didn't use the butler but a large shield but those kinds of troops were already long gone decades before that event. Not to mention these kinds of pirates were often not Japanese and the far away you get from Japan the less Japanese those pirates tend to be.
"Cagayan Battles of 1582: Debunking the Hoax"
"Samurai Pirates Against the Spanish Empire?Sep 11, 2020"
"¿Tercios vs. samuráis? Mito y realidad sobre los combates de Cagayán"
Japanese mercenaries working as bodyguards and soldiers were employed a lot by Europeans (and SE kingdoms) having a highly respectable reputation.
If he is faking then... What does it matter.
@@eagle162 There is no one "encounter with wokou" to talk about. There is an entire history of Spanish and Portuguese and English involvement in the Pacific during this period.
You can argue about numbers and specific engagements. However, the Cagayan battles take place in 1582. The fictional narrative of "Shogun" takes place around 1600.
Spanish rodeleros are period, English sword and buckler fighting is period, rapiers and cutlasses are every day go-to weapons. Modern-day notions of obsolescence will not exist for another three centuries. Whatever happens with the rapidly evolving composition of continental European armies of the day, the skills are still around and they are still used all over the place.
We need go no farther than Shakespeare's instructions for Romeo and Juliet, where, in the opening scene, Sampson and Gregory enter armed with sword and buckler. "Gregory, remember thy swashing blow" is a reference to a specific sword-and-buckler technique.
The bottom line is that Europeans of that day and age were just as capable in a sword fight as Japanese. They could and did face and defeat Japanese opponents, and they also could and did lose to them on occasion. The Portuguese certainly employed Japanese ronin, but not because they were themselves helpless.
Every culture involved in those period contacts had its own fine swordsmen, its own tradition of excellent swordmaking. The modern-day movie trope of "samurai is superman, Europeans have no sword art, white man can't use sword" is what I object to. Never, in any film involving the subject, have I seen a realistic treatment.
@@משה-ב1טyes and typically had mercenaries or native forces helping them often outnumber the European forces.
And I gave sources as to why cagayan battles are not good examples, even the sources to which there are two in existence do not align with a popular story on the internet.
Again rodeleros would not exist at this point anymore and would not have used Butler but much larger Shields, rapier was a civilians dueling weapon, rarely ever use on the battlefield.
Why are you talking about Shakespeare. It's just a play. Or that the Portuguese (I said Europeans it was not only the Portuguese that did that) were helpless, but that they considered the Japanese to be great warriors.
I didn't say European swordsmanship was worse or that Samurai were superhuman, but that neither were superior to the other.
@@eagle162 It is not "just a play", it is a period cultural artifact, demonstrating the context of the day. Regardless of whether or not Spanish armies fighting on the European continent included men formally enlisted as rodeleros or not, the skills or sword-and-shield and sword-and-buckler fighting were in common circulation, the weapons were in common circulation, all the stuff is period and was around during the multiple battles fought between European and Asian people during this time. What you are saying is similar to arguing that, because revolvers are no longer issued to European troops, revolvers are therefore not used by anyone.
At any rate, we agree on the main point -- to portray Europeans of the day as universally unskilled with swords or lacking swordsmanship is BS.
Dude....those were ronin wwukou. Basically ashigaru with katanas, with no armor or formation. Anyone could take on those guys.
Give him a rapier and lets see how well the "samurai" fare then lmao
So…a pirate pilot of a globe spanning merchant/warship of 1600 doesn’t know how to use a sword? Yeah, it’s a katana, not a rapier, arming sword, cutlass, or hanger, I get it. That said, he has Z E R O knowledge of edged weapons? Suspension of disbelief is over, the premise is BS.
Yeah, kind of weird that he has no basics of blade whatsoever.
"Eating a succulent Chinese meal"
“GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY PEANUTS!”
I see you know your kendo well
this is democracy manifest
I think bontaro wanted to kill him because of the way he was holding the katana 😂
Oh, it was definitely because of the way he was holding something.
It's because he fked his wife.. you fool
@@westrim😏
It's most likely because Mariko-San told Buntaro-Sama that Blackthorne was hung like a swamp donkey!
He thought Anjin was sleeping with his wife while he was away.
Ah yes a guy also trained in sword loses, because reasons. Guy would have literally moved the sword out of the swing and thrust. Oh wait, British, white, and male.... Ooohhh realistic to this time period, not that one.
Being a privateer in the time he is not ignorant about the use of a sword
There's no need to 'defend' John or state the scene is historically incorrect because he would have some skills. Trust a scene where a white man fights a Japanese Samurai to be a hotbed of western fans and japanese fans both engaging in chest-thumping. This comment section is a cesspool.
Putting that aside, the most historically inaccurate thing about the scene applies to pretty much the entire show (and the book and 1980s series) too. Samurai rarely drew their weapons in public. Threatening or hurting others with a katana in particular was a serious offence and it was considered uncouth to even partially draw the blade if there was no serious intent to use it. And killing a man with said katana without due process was a capital offence, regardless of rank. Here and in the rest of the show we see samurai drawing their blades at the slightest provocation. But I merely comment on it. It's an acceptable degree of creative liberty.
I adore the kyu-gunto, so when I saw how Anjin holds his katana, I squealed a little
jamas pense que nos fueran a complacer con semejante clasico , lei todas las historias de samurai y jhon barry desde niño , saludos desde colombia
Ghenghis Khan teaching Dr Daniel Jackson how to wield a katana
the rapier stance was perfect. If you are not history buff you do know, but rapier was far superior than katana. and there is real battle to proove it.
before people say the show was saying that john couldnt use a sword, he can just look at how he holds it also a katana is very differnt from what john would have used
All these morons in the comments thinking that John lost so easily because of a lack in sword skill. It's because he has no idea what exactly Yabu wants him to do. He deduces that Yabu wants him the draw the sword, hold it with two hands, then pick it back up after Yabu knocks it out of his hands, but doesn't know what Yabu's goal is. Is he trying to toy with John before killing him? They both look at the pot before the sequence starts, which is the thing Yabu used to needlessly (from John's pov) kill one of the sailors. That wasn't done for no reason, it was to connect that scene to this one. John is starting to pick up that this is some sort of training/lesson, but Buntaro interrupts this by drawing his blade to the defenseless Blackthorne's throat with murder in his eyes. Blackthorne at this point is completely confused and doesn't know how to react. Is this part of Yabu's lesson? Does Buntaro want Blackthorne to fight back in this "sparring session"? Or is Buntaro straight up trying to kill John, and for some reason he hasn't already done it.
You have become better at Two Hand Slash! (3)
In 1902 or so two ninjas were sent to kill an ambassador of Russian Empire. They were both butchered by an old veteran-cossack who was serving there as a gardener. So, samurais were really cool against the paisans, but in the industrial world they would probably suck…
I did not like that scene at all. Blackthorne is an experienced Naval Officer, he would have known how to use a sword of any type at least in the basics. The character he is based on was fighting with Francis Drake before going on a Dutch ship, he had a lot of fight experience for sure.
From personal experience: A Rapier or Saber can do fight very well against a Katana. Same for the style, i did Kendo a lot of years and met a Hema guy, i fought with his sword, completely different from a katana hold and i did not that bad against him. So, if you know any type of fencing, you will be O.K. fighting a different style to some point.
They made him look bad with that.
Mariko and Blackthorne seem to welcome and want death either because they are both fearless or because they can’t be together.
There, I saved you from the manufactured crisis that I created. You’re welcome. Hallmark of a malignant narcissist.
Settle down…it’s not that serious 😅
@@strider9184denial.
@@strider9184 Ignorant. He’s a sociopath, even by the standards of his society.
Samurai were highly trained land warriors. Buntaro himslef took on an armed mob and escaped. Of course Blackthorne was experienced in fighting as well, but not in the same caliber as a Samurai whose whole life is land warfare. I think the scene is showing the vulnerabilities of the character which is necessary for good character development and arc. This is not Disney Star Wars where Rey was born a Jedi Master 😂.
Agree 100%. The Samurai were the worlds greatest swordsmen. Even the art of drawing the Katana from the sheath was a conscious act to be done the right way. Blackthorn had zero chance against a trained Samurai even if he knew how to use a cutlass.
If you really believe that Rey was "bOrN a JeDI MasTer", than you REALLY failed to pay attention to the story in every way seriously.
Except Portugese sailors regularly defeated Samurai in this time period - lol
People think Samurai are Jedi
@@coldstream11 "Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence", which I'm more than eager to review.
And John Blackthorne is certainly not Nathan Algren😂
This scene made no sense to me. The show had already established that Blackthorne could fight in melee combat back in the forest battle scene. If he's capable of using a naginata that he shouldn't be nearly as useless at wielding a katana or fighting melee generally.
Sure no ones expecting him to be really proficient but there's no way he should be getting immediately disarmed with no effort. In the original 1980 show he states he has fought in two land battles in the past, but as I've not read the book I don't know if it's true there as well.
Yeah, he would have been a lot less familiar with a katana vs a naginata (since the naginata is closer to European polearms than the katana is to European swords), but not THIS bad. A reasonably bright person who is physically active and has seen someone with a sword in general would be better than he was.
だからただの海賊がサムライにかてるわけねえだろ？お前らヨーロッパ人はモンゴル人にボコボコに侵略されて負けまくったの知らないのか！？
Two-handed blades were for infantry and required a different kind of training and specialty, as you can see he holds it one handed like a cutlass or rapier he's accustomed to, the length and weight of the Katana certainly threw him off. It seems anyway that he's much more proficient with cannons and guns anyway. Plus he didn't understand Yabushige was trying to train him, just thought that he was about to be executed.
@@Fluffy_Monarch
You can wield a katana single-handedly, even the author of the Book of Five Rings liked the sword/dagger combination and he was alive around the time this is set.
perfect rapier stance
We in the 21st century have become besotted with the stylised fighting of the Japanese samurai .It never changed in 600 years whereas we had gone from Cutlass to sabre to rapier to foil and different swords for different jobs . No matter how good they were in Japan they were in a rut of their own making
He's a major pilot guys, not exactly out raiding even if he is a privateer.
This version of Blackthorn is too weak and complacent. Almost woke at being the inferior caucasian. Much preferred the original actor who didn't give in so much.
The subtly disturbing thing to me here is that the pot is uncovered and someone is stoking the cauldron with wood...meaning its going to be used again soon...
Human stew again
I wish the trope of "Europeans don't know the way of the sword" was less widespread.
That's not a trope and I've never heard that once ever on the internet. You're just making things up because you got offended a white guy in a film got embarrassed/bullied by a non-white guy. Grow up.
@@W.LL1999
Why would an experienced naval officer of the 17th century be so clumsy and sheepish with a sword, to the point that even drawing it from a scabbard looked like he'd never held a weapon before?
@@W.LL1999
Why does this person need to 'grow up?'
Because you disagree with them?
cry about it anime pfp
He holds the sword like a sabre. He knows how to handle a sword just not a katana.
I wonder how John would do if he had a cutlass
would still lose, he's a sailor, not a trained swordman.
@@DccAnhThe British navy were trained swordsman
Kakihara making friends the weird way.
What is the title of outro song? Thanks
Blackthorne was an Englishman who navigated to Japan! Japanese people called him a Barbarian!
Well, im seriously in lust with Mariko.
With that out of the way.
If you recall, Mariko was going through the ships log and saw how many towns they sacked, burned people alive, etc. They killed a lot of people on their journey.
Just because John didn't know the fighting style doesn't mean he couldn't handle himself in a fight.
Guns are better than swords right
Never bring an idiot to a gunfight 😊
@@izmirs. In that era? Highly debatable lmao
@@izmirs. most sailors would have some melee combat experience especially around this time frame when pistols and rifles were single shot, when boarding a vessel you gonna have to use a melee weapon axe or sword you don't got time to reload your guns.
@@DustinDonald-cz9ot yeah but only some, and their opponent is mostly other sailor, who is as untrained as them, a sailor's fighting skill would be pretty poor if you compare them to actual soldier.
I know Buntaro doesn't like Blackthorne but why does he want to kill him?
Le´s not forget he is from England, we didn´t use Katanas in Europe back in 16-17th century, so he is probably more used to fight with a sabre or a rapier or just with his pistols.
So my point is, he has no clue how to hold and use a Katana.
Oh garbage A British sailor had to have had experience with the cutlass or sword in those days . And used our style, in quick and bang .
I wanna watch this show so bad. Why oh why does it have to be a streaming service I aint got... haha
they swapped place after buntaro peeking lmao
I personally hope next season he’ll actually know how to use it and speak the language better (some say there won’t be a next season because of where the book ends but let’s be real there not gonna let it end here there gonna make new seasons based on historical events it’s to big to let it end here )
Редкостная по идиотизму сцена. Можно подумать, что это я попал в Японию, а не хитрый и опытный пират.
Feel like John is being wasted. I was hoping for a sequence of training and him getting more accustomed to Japanese culture.
The Last Samurai
The spanish and the portuguese had very good swordsmen and with a rapier some did kill Samurai in duels. Within Japan were many different schools of fighting. But such was the case in Europe also. Now a lowly sailor that was from a lower class background maybe would not know how to fight, but again maybe he might. The Katana is a pointed curved slashing sword that is very thick and sharp. Be interesting to see someone trained on the rapier try out a katana.
Toledo made swords of very good steel and some japanese went to spain to look into Toledo steel.
I wonder what would happened if there was, let's say one of Winged Hussars with his Szabla. lol.
Give him a rapier?
Though even if he won, he would be in way more trouble.
@@KoflerDavid no chance John won.
@@snowshock8958 Given a weapon of his choice, he'd wipe the floor with most Japanese fighting men. The difference in Japanese vs European martial prowess was night and day in favor of the Europeans.
@@AUniqueHandleName444 so you were talking about John… no he won’t. John would get destroyed by any samurai shown in the show. We can clearly see he doesn't know how to fight. Where did it said he had fighting, weapons training?
I give you the answer nowhere!
@@AUniqueHandleName444 the difference of martial prowess between Japanese vs European is just your opinions.
There is no real life historical duels or war between those countries.
There was a well known Gallowglass that worked for the Portuguese. Butched every hostile Japanese swordsman or man at arms that came at him. His comment, you shouldn't send a carpenter to fight a professional soldier.
I mean I can’t imagine a katana holding up very well to a Scottish/Irish greatsword wielding mad man
@@benpage5088 scotland foreva
@benpage5088 The Gallowglass in question was Irish from Galloway. They liked a glaive as pole arm. They also specialised in dual wielding swords . Master Hegarty liked the combination of rapier and dussack!
@@benpage5088r3tard
It’s important to remember that at that time the average Japanese man at arms would have been a foot shorter and several dozen pounds lighter than their European counterparts. With significantly less muscle tone.
And that's why Westerners brought superior firearms and cannon to sword fights. Tech almost always beats heart. Sad, but true. Just ask the great Saigo Takamori (one of my favorite personalities in all of human history) and Admiral Perry.
And those fine Japanese gentlemen wouldn't be so quick to talk shxt to Miyamoto Bennosuke. Lol.
The series looks good, but this wasn't in the original book.
I'd love to see him learn before he dies in battle next season.
WHere was the duel ffs
Behold, the pride of the Kings Navy ...or Queen. 😆
Who was the ruler of England during this period?
Queen Elizabeth I. She dies in 1603, 3 years after the Battle of Sekigahara, where Tokugawa Ieyasu (the model for Toranaga) beats his rivals and ends the Sengoku era.
Don't let a TV show fool you into thinking the British Navy were a bunch of pussies. 75% of the world speaks English for a reason.
i'm normally not keen on remakes but that was a cool scene
Wish we actually got a scene of him training with a katana and maybe surprising them with his cutlass skills.
Actor playing kashigi either has studied some serious japanese sword schools, or he really did hs homework, because how he drew his weapon was specific to a certain sword school, if I'm not mistaken. TH-camr Shogo's Sensei is master of said school, unless i am wrong. Buntaro's actor, however, learned to sheathe his sword from movies and video games, it seems.
Tadanobu Asano has been playing samurai for decades now, it's no surprise he knows how to properly act as one
He could've learnt a bit of how to use the sword til ep 7.
So...
Let me tell you what most people are looking for in a duel here jack.. 😂
I thought something way different was gonna happen
Maybe use Sabre manual/doctrine with a foreign curved sword and it would be an interesting clash of martial abilities but...
Nope basically how all the sword fights go between my toddler and his oldest brother 😂😂😂
Kimse üzülüo meraklanmasın😄.
Emin ılun senaristler bunu defalarca düşünüp yazmışlardır.
Sonrasında bizler fikir yürütüp konuşuyoeuz😜
By episode 8, I am seriously getting frustrated that they don't comb this f*ckin guys hair. It makes no sense that they would spend all this time making sure he is dressed just right for what the situations etiquette calls for, but comb his hair? No-- that would be too much. They obviously cut his hair/trim his beard or else it would be grown way out by this point so what the hell? I don't know why this is the thing that is bothering me so much.
Lol hellosh quart 0:51
Blackthorn makes katanas look small.
That never happened in the book.
HIS NAME IS NOT KASHIGI LMAO
Bro said skill issues and having fun.
Mf tried to ks