I think I bet/call too. I agree we've ruled out Kh on the turn. A8 would be weird, as played, especially knowing he can't have Ah. You're worried about 33 and 88 - four combos. And 33 might not even raise here. j8s would be a weird double-flat pf. So would JJ. He has enough bluffs, and if he's raising 33, he might then over-value hands like T9hh here. JxTh. He's pretty sure you don't have Kh either.
C-call mostly, but if I bet I think this is the spot to make loose call. Most players don't think combinatorics when bluffing so most people bluff somewhat equally when representing 10-20 combos of boats+ compared to 3 or so that they represent here so the few loose calls in live river spots without specific reads should be in spots where there is surprisingly low number of boats. Additionally villains flop min reraise (proven to be not done with Ace high flush or draw) would be consistent with odd maniac move than playing a vulnerable made hand that would've made a boat in the end. It is easy to understand that reraising the river means boat and some players always have it so the bluff spot is kind of obvious for maniac player. In other hand you reviewed even AATJKsss board is not considered enough to get opponent to fold small flush against 3 bettor who triple barrels and has high number of boat combos so some stories that make sense don't work but some stories without combos seem stronger.
7:30 When players call and then recall it’s almost always set hunting w/2’s - 8’s and they don’t want to play a 4-bet pot. They are willing to call once to win a big pot, and by the time it gets back to them it’s still a tiny bit profitable to call, especially if you are closing the action on the final pre-flop bet. It seems like the same situation b/c they had to call a raise in big spots but in the second instance you have a wider range and you avoid a 4-bet from “player 3” to which you would be required to fold even pocket 10’s.
Yeah I agree opponents range was 22-88 imo which makes it about 15 combos(assuming opponents has one heart) of 22,44,55,66,77 to bluff and 4 combos of 33,88 for value but it is still such an under bluffed spot that it is a very hard call for hero
Halfway through and I suspect villain has a hand like KhJs - top pair with a redraw to the 2nd nuts (on the flop), but I haven't even heard the turn action yet. That's the type of hand that would double flat and min click the flop. Let's see where this goes. EDIT: ok turn action makes this hand a lot less likely, and Bart says the same thing - if he had the Kh on the flop, he'd be heavily incentivized to bet the turn. The Ah on the turn removes a lot of villain's value on the flop, but it also removes a lot of his Ahx bluffs. Hard to know what the overall effect is on villain's range without running it through a solver. Agree with Bart - betting this river is pretty thin. We're not beat by many hands, but there aren't many we beat that will pay us off either. You risk either value owning yourself or getting bluffed off your equity. That said, really good players will go quite thin for value, so maybe I'm playing this spot too scared. River: I think villain is over-bluffing this spot, and I'm calling this all day. The boat combos don't make much sense - JJ gets raised pre, there is only one combo of pocket 8s, and pocket 3s likely folds pre, but is really the only reasonable boat. A8o is another possibility. Oooh, Bart mentioned J8 as well which is a possibility. I wouldn't rejam as I doubt there are enough boats that would fold. I'm not worried about the Kh at this point. I'm calling, and sometimes we're going to see J8/A8/33/88, but I think we're good often enough to justify the call. OK, opponent had some nonsense - he tried to bluff hero off on the flop, gave up on it, then saw the 2nd 8 as a scare card. Great hand and well played by the caller (although I didn't like the river bet, maybe it induced the villain to bluff).
When an aggressive player overcalls twice in position he's basically saying "I am gonna outplay you postflop with extreme aggression and take the pot basically no matter the flop or my cards". Worst case scenario is he has a suited King. There's zero chance he has a suited Ace, which comes on the turn anyway. What he is doing is he is buying the action on the flop... But then doesn't act on it?
4th heart, V may decide he is ahead of big pairs no heart that won't call, and is behind big pairs with a heart that won't fold. So no need to bet the turn. River, he sees he can bluff some players off of the better flushes. But I agree with you that this was a case of a guy thinking he could outplay the hero
24:34 due to my earlier comment, I actually really like this villain river raise. If he can have 4’s then he can have 3’, and the likelihood of the hero having a boat is so slim based on play. Gutsy raise. I wonder if all-in would have made a difference?
I think all-in is bad because the hero has basically all the combos of JJ and AA. The villain is lighting too much money on fire if he jams with no removal to JJ and AA. Hell, the hero even has some of combos of 88 from SB (say 50% of those 88 combos 3-bet, so hero has 1/2 of a combo of 88 in this particular spot). Villain needs to give himself a better price on his bluff, which he does.
Lol. Caller says that villain's never flatting twice there with 33. Then villain shows up with 44. Maybe time to reevaluate your perceptions and ranges. Btw, I felt that he could have quite easily have gotten there with 33. It seems to me that hero figured wrong but still managed to be right. Sometimes we make the wrong play at right time!
The whole preflop calling pattern felt indicative of the way people tend to cautiously play low pocket pairs. The minraise was kind of a curve ball for sure.
Sometimes when a super aggressive player takes such a weird line, it's Aces. I think Aces is the most likely value hand here (because there's three combos of Aces and just one combo of quads). Sometimes people like to get fancy with Aces. If the villain's line had made more sense, I could remove Aces from his range. But when the villain's play is so strange, I have to consider the possibility of getting too fancy with Aces.
I had the same thought. AA wouldn't have surprised me too much here. If HJ was somewhat tight and Villain thought trapping with AA was better than 3B someone who would just fold to a 3B, then villain is somewhat committed to flat when Hero 3B!. The post flop action somewhat makes sense with AA as well.
@@Silent_300 deviate flat first node, deviate flat second node, then min-raise in position without the Ah on monotone board after taking passive lines first two nodes...... makes sense?
@@mixedminh The point is that it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense for any hand, not just Aces. And sometimes when it doesn't make sense, it's just someone trying to get tricky with Aces.
@@mixedminh I said it "somewhat" made sense. Not the best line, but it's a line. With AA and no heart on this flop, the min raise could mean "I have best hand but I don't want to over inflate the flop so early". You are not going to get a nut flush draw to fold anyway with a big raise and with a min raise, you can drag along Ax who missed the flop. Then if no heart on Turn, you can bet big because the flush draws get bad odds.
9:20 I never really get that theory that you shouldn’t bet flop with a hand you aren’t comfortable bet-folding. Surely then the in position player can just play perfectly? If they’ve got a big hand just raise, if they’ve got a draw just call.
Just a really weird hand. Hero does well here. Action on every street kinda nice, I think the bet at the end is thin but it's also small enough that it allows villain to bluff us. I remember watching this as a short before & I misremembered, I thought the villain had quads so I almost didn't think about this hand that much because in my mind I knew the outcome. But I just remembered wrong. I think I call the river raise because he shouldn't arrive with many hands here that are value. More bluffs in his range when we consider the preflop action.
As soon as I head the double flat preflop, my first thought is that he has pocket 9s or 10s, possibly jacks. After the min raise on the flop and then check on the turn. Pocket jacks is the main hand that makes sense once he raises river. Litterally the only hand I would put him on. If you cant put him on jacks, then I just shrug call this off. To jam this river, youre just targetting the pocket 9s and 10s with a heart. Pretty thin, but still makes some sense.
Surprised Bart didn’t pick up on preflop sizing. 4x for out of position + the call would already suggest going to $250. But then given how deep we are plus the fact that the original open was kind of small anyway I could easily see going to $300.
As from my experience, double flats pre are quite often low pocket pairs trying to get a price for set mining, so in this spot for me it was 3’s, 8’s or air
Yeah I agree opponents range was 22-88 imo which makes it about 15 combos(assuming opponents has one heart) of 22,44,55,66,77 to bluff and 4 combos of 33,88 for value but it is still such an under bluffed spot that it is a very hard call for hero
Coulple thoughts from the call. 1st I rather a river check from the hero instead of the 500 euro bet. This guy is a aggressive checking keeps in all of his bluffs. 2nd 3bet shoving on the river is a terrible idea. You have a bluff catcher only. So either villain will fold any bluff and you get no additional value or he has you beat and you value owe yourself. Even a hand like 3's is getting way too good of a price to fold at that point. Before the reveal I told it was 3's or air. That was the only hand that got there that made any sense. Small pocket pair is often players range when double flatting. Strong enough to flop a monster and get paid but too weak to get it all in pre.
1stly I bet bigger on flop. Need protection. Around 70-80% pot Got to turn and wondering how river decision can be tough. Right board pairing. Bearing in mind I'm on the right side and that I know bart hates this play. I check river with plan to call a non huge bet
this caller is definitely as dumb as they come and why did he call this in? It wasn't a hard call that required much thinking. You just know tihs guy is in the negatives for total networth in poker and probably blames things like varience and luck on his losses.
What would YOU have done on the river?
It should've been 99% check-call on the river with QhQs.
I probably would have donked the turn. I don't think that people do donk bets often enough and this is a perfect time to do it.
@@gabrielrockman I would not even consider it a donk. No law says we must allow villain to buy the betting lead with a min-click.
I think I bet/call too. I agree we've ruled out Kh on the turn. A8 would be weird, as played, especially knowing he can't have Ah. You're worried about 33 and 88 - four combos. And 33 might not even raise here. j8s would be a weird double-flat pf. So would JJ. He has enough bluffs, and if he's raising 33, he might then over-value hands like T9hh here. JxTh. He's pretty sure you don't have Kh either.
C-call mostly, but if I bet I think this is the spot to make loose call. Most players don't think combinatorics when bluffing so most people bluff somewhat equally when representing 10-20 combos of boats+ compared to 3 or so that they represent here so the few loose calls in live river spots without specific reads should be in spots where there is surprisingly low number of boats. Additionally villains flop min reraise (proven to be not done with Ace high flush or draw) would be consistent with odd maniac move than playing a vulnerable made hand that would've made a boat in the end. It is easy to understand that reraising the river means boat and some players always have it so the bluff spot is kind of obvious for maniac player. In other hand you reviewed even AATJKsss board is not considered enough to get opponent to fold small flush against 3 bettor who triple barrels and has high number of boat combos so some stories that make sense don't work but some stories without combos seem stronger.
Great hand and caller, probably one of my favourites of the year!
7:30 When players call and then recall it’s almost always set hunting w/2’s - 8’s and they don’t want to play a 4-bet pot. They are willing to call once to win a big pot, and by the time it gets back to them it’s still a tiny bit profitable to call, especially if you are closing the action on the final pre-flop bet. It seems like the same situation b/c they had to call a raise in big spots but in the second instance you have a wider range and you avoid a 4-bet from “player 3” to which you would be required to fold even pocket 10’s.
Yeah I agree opponents range was 22-88 imo which makes it about 15 combos(assuming opponents has one heart) of 22,44,55,66,77 to bluff and 4 combos of 33,88 for value but it is still such an under bluffed spot that it is a very hard call for hero
Bart: "we need less Euros at Commerce". Also Bart: "it's nice we're all over the world here at Crushlivepoker" 🤣🤣
Halfway through and I suspect villain has a hand like KhJs - top pair with a redraw to the 2nd nuts (on the flop), but I haven't even heard the turn action yet. That's the type of hand that would double flat and min click the flop. Let's see where this goes.
EDIT: ok turn action makes this hand a lot less likely, and Bart says the same thing - if he had the Kh on the flop, he'd be heavily incentivized to bet the turn.
The Ah on the turn removes a lot of villain's value on the flop, but it also removes a lot of his Ahx bluffs. Hard to know what the overall effect is on villain's range without running it through a solver.
Agree with Bart - betting this river is pretty thin. We're not beat by many hands, but there aren't many we beat that will pay us off either. You risk either value owning yourself or getting bluffed off your equity. That said, really good players will go quite thin for value, so maybe I'm playing this spot too scared.
River: I think villain is over-bluffing this spot, and I'm calling this all day. The boat combos don't make much sense - JJ gets raised pre, there is only one combo of pocket 8s, and pocket 3s likely folds pre, but is really the only reasonable boat. A8o is another possibility.
Oooh, Bart mentioned J8 as well which is a possibility. I wouldn't rejam as I doubt there are enough boats that would fold. I'm not worried about the Kh at this point.
I'm calling, and sometimes we're going to see J8/A8/33/88, but I think we're good often enough to justify the call.
OK, opponent had some nonsense - he tried to bluff hero off on the flop, gave up on it, then saw the 2nd 8 as a scare card. Great hand and well played by the caller (although I didn't like the river bet, maybe it induced the villain to bluff).
When an aggressive player overcalls twice in position he's basically saying "I am gonna outplay you postflop with extreme aggression and take the pot basically no matter the flop or my cards". Worst case scenario is he has a suited King. There's zero chance he has a suited Ace, which comes on the turn anyway. What he is doing is he is buying the action on the flop... But then doesn't act on it?
4th heart, V may decide he is ahead of big pairs no heart that won't call, and is behind big pairs with a heart that won't fold. So no need to bet the turn. River, he sees he can bluff some players off of the better flushes. But I agree with you that this was a case of a guy thinking he could outplay the hero
I agree ! Thinks he can outplay caller n doesn’t respect his game
24:34 due to my earlier comment, I actually really like this villain river raise. If he can have 4’s then he can have 3’, and the likelihood of the hero having a boat is so slim based on play. Gutsy raise. I wonder if all-in would have made a difference?
I think all-in is bad because the hero has basically all the combos of JJ and AA. The villain is lighting too much money on fire if he jams with no removal to JJ and AA. Hell, the hero even has some of combos of 88 from SB (say 50% of those 88 combos 3-bet, so hero has 1/2 of a combo of 88 in this particular spot). Villain needs to give himself a better price on his bluff, which he does.
Lol. Caller says that villain's never flatting twice there with 33. Then villain shows up with 44. Maybe time to reevaluate your perceptions and ranges. Btw, I felt that he could have quite easily have gotten there with 33. It seems to me that hero figured wrong but still managed to be right.
Sometimes we make the wrong play at right time!
The whole preflop calling pattern felt indicative of the way people tend to cautiously play low pocket pairs. The minraise was kind of a curve ball for sure.
Yeah. 33 should definitely raise more on the flop here, to charge hands containing Ah/Kh/Qh.
He was drawing to a 4 high flush. Just trying to drive out anyone not holding a heart. Ended up turning it into a bluff. Got caught.
Sometimes when a super aggressive player takes such a weird line, it's Aces. I think Aces is the most likely value hand here (because there's three combos of Aces and just one combo of quads). Sometimes people like to get fancy with Aces. If the villain's line had made more sense, I could remove Aces from his range. But when the villain's play is so strange, I have to consider the possibility of getting too fancy with Aces.
not enough combos to worry about if theres no 3b! in first node and second node
I had the same thought. AA wouldn't have surprised me too much here. If HJ was somewhat tight and Villain thought trapping with AA was better than 3B someone who would just fold to a 3B, then villain is somewhat committed to flat when Hero 3B!. The post flop action somewhat makes sense with AA as well.
@@Silent_300 deviate flat first node, deviate flat second node, then min-raise in position without the Ah on monotone board after taking passive lines first two nodes...... makes sense?
@@mixedminh The point is that it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense for any hand, not just Aces. And sometimes when it doesn't make sense, it's just someone trying to get tricky with Aces.
@@mixedminh I said it "somewhat" made sense. Not the best line, but it's a line. With AA and no heart on this flop, the min raise could mean "I have best hand but I don't want to over inflate the flop so early". You are not going to get a nut flush draw to fold anyway with a big raise and with a min raise, you can drag along Ax who missed the flop. Then if no heart on Turn, you can bet big because the flush draws get bad odds.
9:20 I never really get that theory that you shouldn’t bet flop with a hand you aren’t comfortable bet-folding. Surely then the in position player can just play perfectly? If they’ve got a big hand just raise, if they’ve got a draw just call.
Just a really weird hand. Hero does well here. Action on every street kinda nice, I think the bet at the end is thin but it's also small enough that it allows villain to bluff us. I remember watching this as a short before & I misremembered, I thought the villain had quads so I almost didn't think about this hand that much because in my mind I knew the outcome. But I just remembered wrong.
I think I call the river raise because he shouldn't arrive with many hands here that are value. More bluffs in his range when we consider the preflop action.
As soon as I head the double flat preflop, my first thought is that he has pocket 9s or 10s, possibly jacks. After the min raise on the flop and then check on the turn. Pocket jacks is the main hand that makes sense once he raises river. Litterally the only hand I would put him on. If you cant put him on jacks, then I just shrug call this off.
To jam this river, youre just targetting the pocket 9s and 10s with a heart. Pretty thin, but still makes some sense.
Surprised Bart didn’t pick up on preflop sizing. 4x for out of position + the call would already suggest going to $250.
But then given how deep we are plus the fact that the original open was kind of small anyway I could easily see going to $300.
As from my experience, double flats pre are quite often low pocket pairs trying to get a price for set mining, so in this spot for me it was 3’s, 8’s or air
Yeah I agree opponents range was 22-88 imo which makes it about 15 combos(assuming opponents has one heart) of 22,44,55,66,77 to bluff and 4 combos of 33,88 for value but it is still such an under bluffed spot that it is a very hard call for hero
Up to $50 rake. Sheeeeeesh
Got $110 over here haha
The rake sounds like a small card room I used to deal at here in the US. $20 at over $1000 pot and they wonder why they were slow.
Ancient Chinese Proverb:
Getting a beer delivered during a value bet disguised as a bluff is the path to prosperity
i had a dream last night you told me you were on a massive 80g downswing right now
i hope things turn around
what a hand!
Coulple thoughts from the call. 1st I rather a river check from the hero instead of the 500 euro bet. This guy is a aggressive checking keeps in all of his bluffs.
2nd 3bet shoving on the river is a terrible idea. You have a bluff catcher only. So either villain will fold any bluff and you get no additional value or he has you beat and you value owe yourself. Even a hand like 3's is getting way too good of a price to fold at that point.
Before the reveal I told it was 3's or air. That was the only hand that got there that made any sense. Small pocket pair is often players range when double flatting. Strong enough to flop a monster and get paid but too weak to get it all in pre.
The way this played out, I would've assumed this hand took place in Texas lol
A question. Is he capable of being highly tricky?
It's Europe. You call here 120% of the time.
Yeah, I call there because it seems like a spaz.
quad 8s
A8 or JJ
A8 aint min clicking on the flop lol
Fat Bart would have called,,, this Bart is too nitty
88 or absolutely nothing at all.
1stly I bet bigger on flop. Need protection.
Around 70-80% pot
Got to turn and wondering how river decision can be tough.
Right board pairing. Bearing in mind I'm on the right side and that I know bart hates this play. I check river with plan to call a non huge bet
Aces or A8s I think would play like this. Don’t really understand the raise on flop though but some people are nutty
why is this polish guy pretending to be german?
This is a terrible hand breakdown. To MANY hypothetical situations. Just break it down like normal
J8s also possible combo
this caller is definitely as dumb as they come and why did he call this in? It wasn't a hard call that required much thinking. You just know tihs guy is in the negatives for total networth in poker and probably blames things like varience and luck on his losses.