Neanderthals & Art: Interview with Dr. Wragg Sykes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- There is a huge debate around whether and to what extent Neanderthals made art. Here to help me set the record straight is Dr. Wragg Sykes, Neanderthal expert, archaeologist and author.
Follow her on Twitter @ / lemoustier
Sites mentioned in the interview.
Bruniquel Cave, France: vimeo.com/1681...
www.theguardia...
Cioarei-Borosteni, Romania:
www.cambridge....
Fumane Cave, Italy:
journals.plos....
/ stefanmilo
Disclaimer: Use my videos as a rough guide to a topic. I am not an expert, I may get things wrong. This is why I always post my sources so you can critique my work and verify things for yourselves. Of course I aim to be as accurate as possible which is why you will only find reputable sources in my videos. Secondly, information is always subject to change as new information is uncovered by archaeologists.
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www.stefanmilo.com
Historysmilo
historysmilo
Thank you again to Dr. Wragg Sykes for sharing her expertise with the channel. Here are the three sites mentioned as examples of Neanderthal art and symbolism.
Bruniquel Cave, France: vimeo.com/168174627
www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/25/neanderthals-built-mysterious-cave-structures-175000-years-ago
Cioarei-Borosteni, Romania:
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cioareiborosteni-cave-carpathian-mountains-romania-middle-palaeolithic-finds-and-technological-analysis-of-the-lithic-assemblages/45BC50FB0819EA236CB414853049C196
Fumane Cave, Italy:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0068572
Your videos help a lot as a archeology student love your video's
science report paper comes out ,modern humans walked out of Africa 45,000 years ago.. So Australian aboriginal are not modern humans as they been in Australia 65,000 .. Why is this not on the news? this is a big story.
Humans just africa before then. They just didn't travel north to europe but hugged the coastline along asia. Europe was a pretty cold environment so we didn't spread north until we had better adapted our cultures to colder climates.
Stefan, The say Australian aboriginal have been in Australia for 65,000 years which I say is wrong. The oldest bones found are 41,000 years old that was lake mongo man and his DNA is modern human like all Australian aboriginal… I do believe there was something living in Australia before 45,000 years.. They even found a fire pit 120,000 years old, no modern Human could of made it..The oldest rock art is 10,000 year old so we no modern Human did it... here is the 120,000year old fire pit.. rsv.org.au/moyjil/?fbclid=IwAR3mTWPS1DuPxp7zzkuDbDEH1x6Qx2GIimkhVxcJNYLXH6R4TDAC6ktdeQk
Thank you Dr. Wagg Sykes for taking the time for the interview!! I'm just a humble 37 year old woman in America who loves to watch natural history TH-cam's as a hobby but I feel more people should know this information about ourselves and our hominid ancestors.
Neanderthals were the first to synthesize pitch tar from birch bark to affix stone points on thrusting spears. This shows imagination.
Chris Bishop And that takes a high degree of planning, patience, and technological skill.
Source?
@@daphne4983 www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/experiments-show-how-neanderthals-made-first-glue-180964718/ The info is all over the place, but I thought this article was interesting...
@@matthewlarson2161 thx
I can't remember where I saw it, but two scientists tried to recreate this process from things Neanderthals would've had (egg shells, mud, etc) and it was HARD. I always wonder how someone could've come up with ideas/technology like this! I mean, that's not lightning striking a dry patch and creating fire to spark (ha!) the idea. I would love to be able to go back I time and watch the process of this invention.
Considering how long fairly modern science denied that animal even felt pain, and how many still deny that they have emotions, or the higher mammals have even rudimentary language, it is not amazing that they will deny early ancestors had symbolism or art.
these academics must never have had a cat
While there is some controversy on the language front, linguists at least acknowledge that all of the individual agreed upon features of true language are present in various animals, just not combined all together anywhere but in us. I'd personally argue that at least some cetaceans have likely reached the point of language, and maybe some others, but beyond that, the argument becomes highly rooted in trying to define what *actually* "counts" as language, and I hate definition rooted debate. To elaborate, the primary debate is at what point does communication become language.
I believe in devo. I don't think the neanderthals were miserable. I think the OTHER. People coming in from Tunisia and screaming in off the central as8a steppes herded them into caves and ate them. Pther way around
@@Great_Olaf5 what do you think of the theory that ravens have language?
@@Shade_Dragon Like I said, at that point, the question of whether or not something has language becomes so tightly interwoven with the question of what language even is that I don't line getting involved. I'd be perfectly willing to believe ravens have language, but until we can figure out ways to meaningfully translate, there's not much point. We can't know how complex a communication system is without being able to interpret it, and the ideas we have of what language is are so heavily rooted in its complexity... And that's entirely aside from the issue that, while we like putting things into nice neat categories with sharp dividing lines, nature is a lot less concerned with that (read: not at all), so it might be one of those things that are impossible to define to our satisfaction. In that debate I mentioned in my original comment, there is a camp that argues that we just keep changing the definition of language so that nothing else but what we use qualifies, and while I'm not sure that's the case, or that it's intentional, it wouldn't be the only time something like that happened in science. While I'm not as upset as some by Pluto being dropped out of the formal definition of planet, it's an odd coincidence that the definition of planet was changed shortly after the death of the man who discovered Pluto, and in just such a way as to exclude the only planet discovered by an American, while not affecting any of the other planets.
Hopefully you can have her on again when the book is published.
It comes out tomorrow
What an interesting discussion. A complex set of ideas need this amount of time to unravel. Thank you both for allowing enough time on your channel. I enjoyed this much more than the sound bites we may get elsewhere,
It's kind of amazing that I'm having a class on Human Evolution and right about the same time you started making videos about Neanderthal and now this!
Very nice. Genetics has advanced to a level I could have never imagines back when I studied it in the early 80's.
Keep it up!
More than likely it was just some microphone setting on your phone picking up key words and phrases from when you were in class and this video was recommended to you as a result.
Or something along those lines.
I bet the neanderthals made sand castles, snow angels and mud cakes. Great video, Milo and Sykes!
I would not bet against you there.
@@nmarbletoe8210 fckng stupid normal ass animals do similar stuff...
I'm going to go with musicals and caberets with perhaps an occasional mardi gras. I mean, the sparkly makeup had to be used for something.
Who knows, maybe they even partied themselves into extinction.
@@SofaKingShit every society has psychedelics!
@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis Are you talking about Equus asinus, E. hemionus or E. kiang? And could you give me sources on the behaviour you're referring to?
More interviews like this would be great, especially with people who can communicate really well like Dr. Sykes.
Thank you both for giving your time, expertise, passion and focus to this offering. It excites me to hear your views.
I think the only reason there's controversy about Neanderthal symbolism is that it would be a blow to our ego to have to admit that we aren't so special after all.
OmegaWolf747 sadly, your probably right. To be honest, I don’t know why such a revelation would be a blow to certain people. I mean, I don’t value human agriculture any less because I’ve learned ants & termites have been doing it way longer.
Speak for yourself. As a European descendant I am part Neanderthal therefore I am still special... 😂
I doubt any ones ego will be damaged by the low effort 'art' of the neanderthal. I've seen 2 years olds who have produced better symbolism than a # on a cave wall or stones in a circle. Not exactly on the same level as the Lascaux Caves etc. It's kl that some neanderthal gave it a go and props for trying but ultimately they shouldn't quit their day jobs.
@@lmonk9517 Now that statement is off the wall of stupid and envious, Neanderthals had nothing to go off, they didn't have pens and crayons nor paper, the had no art education, everything they did was the first time it had ever been done, don't forget Neanderthals had bigger brains than even the largest brain race the Chinese/Far East people of today.
I see you have no profile and highly likely no Neanderthal DNA.
@@panspermiahunter7597 Sorry mate but Neanderthals were just bad at art. sure the very first Neanderthals had the excuse that they had nothing to go off but Neanderthals were around many thousands of years and they barely made it to kindergarten level. Classic under achievers. Its not like Homo Sapiens had pens and paper when they painted the Altamira caves.
I'm shamed to say that I've 1.6% Neanderthal. A little embarrassing , I know
Getting blazed listening to Stefan chat about Neanderthals with a scientist
Where do you get your contact lenses
Me too!
Ayyy
Given the history of comparative biology and psychology it's going to come down to matter of definition and degree. It would see extreme to believe that neanderthals didn't use symbols. It more of a questions of how much. They could have been great stories tellers or maybe very simple stories about how bears behave. And definition of "art" vary so much it's not hard to imagine one of those definitions would apply to whatever it is that neanderthals did.
Great interview, it is interesting to listen to people trying to figure out such very difficult problems.
Thank you so much for putting this together for your viewers. Amazing amazing stuff!!
What a nice and clever Lady... She seems to have not only a very good understanding of us Neanderthals but also real empathy... I feel well understood... .! ! !
"us" hahahahah
This is one of the most informative talks about Neanderthals I have ever heard. Thanks.
Thank you SO MUCH for this amazing discussion!! Stefan, your channel's great - as you continue, please keep us informed about any updates on the many fascinating topics you discuss.
At about the 40minute mark, discussing the small stone structures laid vertically, then horizontally, the researcher says 'We don't have the language to describe what this is'. But we do! They are inukshuk.
tell us more!
Interesting....looking up the word...thanks :)
no stone carvings are found at neanderthal sites but they could have carved wood. they could make items out of wood for a camp and they would never show up in archeological records. aboriginal Australians do that. they made tools and instruments when thet are out in the bush and leave them when they move on rather than carrying those items with. if they were piercing hides to stretch them and make clothing then they had the mind power to make other things from raw hide and leather that would not be found 100,000 years later. stone work took time and it is heavy. wood carves easier and faster. i believe people in the sciences under estimate neanderthal technology. they certainly gathered plants and cooked. they most likely made baskets for a variety of purposes. they would have had a very intimate relationship with plants.
Great video. Neanderthal rock formation sounds like a temple. If it was homosapiens be no doubt it would be written up as such by now
Stefan, great to have a guy like you presenting this and your other topics. Really helps the lot of us.
around 34:20 she mentions "this is a site where they appear to be butchering the dead, which is a whole other topic" -- can we get a part 2 about this? and other mysteries? great guest and conversation! love it
Ancient neolithic people would cut up and eat the dead. Then they would scrape the bones clean and smash them to pieces. Probably as a spiritual ritual for the afterlife.
@@VikingMuayThai Bone marrow is very nutritious. No spiritual speculation required.
Very interesting Stefan ,thanks and thanks also for the link below to Bruniquel cave .
Thank you very much. You are the first prehistory-caster I've found and so grateful for the discussion
Thanks a lot to you both for this interesting video. I have a question: is there any differentiation in the spatial positions of the art left by neanderthal and sapiens within the caves? For example, did the neanderthals tend to leave their representations deeper within the caves than sapiens?
I suspect there are not enough Neander locations to do a statistical comparison... but idk. Any idea how many sites are attributed to them?
Neanderthals were awesome. According to 23andme I am more Neanderthal than like 99% of all their customers. :)
@Friendly Stranger why not?
The Collier Report By any chance are you Italian or have ancestry around the Tuscany area?
I thought I would have a bunch, but am only 1%. The NatGeo genome 2.0 is a cool project, the results were surprising yet enlightening.
do you have red hair?
N Marbletoe I do actually
Can we appreciate how excellent the sound quality for this excellent interview is?
Plus, the disembodied skull voicing the conversation in the background is a nice touch
wonderful interview, loved Dr. Sykes book and am really happy to hear her speak on a topic shes so knowledgeable about. Thanks as always Stefan.
Seems so hard for everyone to believe they were as complicated as we are
@travisaurand7550 - Even as a kid, I had deep faith that the Neanderthals were still with us and were intelligent, and had speech. It is wonderful that history has finally caught up to them. Thank you, Great-Great-Great-Great-Great [...] Great-Great-Great-Great [...] Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandparenrs!
Wow! You've posted many amazing interviews, but this one, at least to me, really takes the cake! I don't often make comments, (my typing being slow and riddled with typos being one reason for this), but the content of this conversation compels me to comment. BTY your channel has become one of my favorite sources both of information and entertainment, so Thank You! A bit more than halfway through this interview and before, it became an area discussed in the interview, various factors being discussed provoked or triggered the remembrance of the idea that the "Neanderthal" population did not die out or go extinct, but rather over time became absorbed into the "Homo Sapiens" expanding population. Hominids having, since there first emergence, living in social groups, and procuring, all that they needed for survival through group activities, suggests that in all times' but especially in difficult times, being part of a group was a personal survival necessity. I also appreciated the discussion concerning the tendency to treat "Neanderthals" as a unity regardless of geographical or temporal location. This reminds me of the way we, in the U.S.A. tend to consider cuisines of other countries as a unity: i.e. You don't really find Mexican food in Mexico, Italian food in Italy, Greek food in Greece, and so on. (Even in this country, Mexican food in California tends to be different than Mexican food in Arizona, which is different than Mexican food in New Mexico, which is also different form Mexican food in Texas. And these differences are dwarfed by the regional differences in cuisine that one would encounter traveling from one region of Mexico to another.We do tend to lump and simplify our perceptions of those that we consider "others" into a false unity. On a slightly different, but related track , prior to the era of radio, movies with audio dialogue, and television, and especially in times when travel was difficult language in isolated areas tended to relatively quickly, evolve in different ways, leading to variant dialects, that could further evolve into differing languages. Yet, In Sci-fi encounters with beings from other worlds, the residents of those worlds are almost always depicted as having a common language! As Spock might say, "highly illogical!" Hmm, this is already the longest comment that I've ever made, but I also want to tell you how much I appreciate your enthusiasm for these subjects, especially as you combine this with the due respect for the evidence. You even make clear distinctions between what is possible, probable or likely, and nearly certain according to the evidence. And you do this in a very entertaining manner. ( This kind of reminds me of another English perhaps better well-known presenter, David something or other. Any ways Bravo and Thank you.
Need to go back and listen through a 2nd time. Really enjoyed this. Thanks!
Good stuff!
Have her on again!
Breeding between the subspecies may have occurred simply because Neanderthals were cute.
Any one who has ever loved a little Danish/Dam troll doll understands that.
They are adorable, and the spitting image of Neanderthals.
The Kentucky Neanderthals probably would breed with anything!!!
I have a suggestion, I think those longe, "videoless" interviews work better as a podcast. It`s hard for people without youtube premium to watch videos on the background on the go. Anyways, thanks for the awesome job! I really enjoy your work!
Your videos are super interesting! I really like how happy you are and how shiny your eyes are, in particular. :)
Keep up the great work! Its appreciated
Stefan instead of focus on Neanderthals you could extend this to the cult caves of Europe, there's very clear symbolism in those. The cross symbol actually originates in these stone age caves.
I would like to know more
The origins of religions and symbolism that i know all go back to Africa
@@G_zuz I think most animals are religious, so religion goes back to before we were even human
Lol, so eurostoneys patented perpendicular lines?
not one example pre??
Amazing video and exchange at the exact opposition of what YT loves to promote, you know the 10 minutes "entertaining" ones in the best case scenario. Such an ongoing sphere of studies, discoveries and self-questioning but in the long run a lesson on how hard and complex it is to apprehend History and as you can guess Prehistory- Captain Obiious strikes again!-.
Great Chan sir, thank you very much for your work and an almighty thanks to Rebecca!
This video is a jewel in my humble opinion.
these long videos always help me rotate after the night shift while sleeplistening to them in the library
Well, it seems I have something interesting to listen to for my lunch break
Thank you Dr. Rebecca Wragg Sykes for sharing your meticulous views and thoughts. When one starts to speak of utilitarian uses for Earth pigments such as processing animal skins and enhancing the performance of adhesives used in hafting, I think that the amount of abstract thought involved in developing such processes over time is far more complex than sticking your finger in some mud and drawing an image on a cave wall. Still, from the obvious sophistication and facility displayed in much cave art, it would seem that the "artists" had to be practicing elsewhere, but in a medium that was extremely ephemeral; that act of practicing is where the abstract thought would have been occurring and for which there could not possibly be any evidence. The amount of image memory - mind's eye - hand coordination necessary is, I think, staggering. Much of archaeology ends with an effort to nail the night sky to a wooden floor with the only acceptable tool allowed being a cucumber.
fantastic bit with nailing the night sky to a wooden floor :) i was also shocked to learn these complex behaviours with wax and stuff. very cool
Thank you so much Milo for this wonderful discussion with DR Sykes.
An excellent survey of recent Neanderthal information. Despite Neandertals were first discovered a year after the Origin of Species was published in 1859, we still are learning so much. I still am more of a lumper than a splitter and view Neandertals, as one did in the 1960s and early 70s, as subspecies (Ernst Mayr's definition of species e.g. fertile offspring of sexually reproductive forms) Homo sapiens neandertalis. Splitters type paleobiologist seem to get more recognition unfortunately because publishing a new species causes buzz (e.g. financial reward for someone if not the author themselves).
This is the kind of quility content i love, great work!
P.S.: This kind of "podcasts" would be awesome to have on Spotify, do you have Spotify with this kind of content/ plans for setting that up?
Also i wonder, u, is any of ur ancestry traceble to former Yugoslavia?
Seeing how much history that region has (Most people only think of the breakup and the horrible wars that followed) it would be cool to dive deeper in that if it's the case!
From the Sićevačka jawbone to the Starčevo culture, from Tiberius II to Tito.
Much love from The Netherlands!!!
I'm so glad for some caution, a more scientific method approach to the topic. It's frustrating to see people believing one thing after an article made to excite based on one opinion, even more frustrating when the supposed experts push a controversial idea to a click bait publication. I want to understand Neanderthals better but I really cannot fall in love with some idea or another because I want them to be "just like us", or "advanced", when it's hard enough to imagine my mom's life on a farm only 65 years ago!
One of the most fascinating talks I have ever heard ! I'd give it a hundred 'likes' if I could !
I just started reading the novel series "earth's children" by Jean Auel. It is a fictional story about the interactions between neanderthals and cromagnons. Super interesting. Wonder if you have come across this series and if you know of any other similar novels?
I have read it. I liked the Clan of the Cave Bear and Valley of the Horses.
Covena White I just started valley of the horse. I’m really enjoying it 😊
These are great, unique books. A bit long but worth the read!
Hey, try the ''First Americans'' series by William Sarabande. The first book is called ''Beyond the Sea of Ice''. There aren't any Neanderthals in those books, but they're really good. At least good as the Earth's Children.
Rachel Coleman that’s next on my list 😉
Her book comes out tomorrow! I pre-ordered it after watching this video. I'll let ya all know when I get it. Very excited. Amazing interview and my favorite video. Re watching for excitement on her book coming out. Woohoo.
Hi, how was it? Good read?
@@josepestana5265 yes! I highly recommend it. Educational and fun.
Nice interviewing technique, Stefan. Letting the guest speak with minimum interruption. Good questions, too.
I knew I needed to be in the right state of mind with this one. Talking about anything art or symbol without the visual object or application....? The Doctor did a good job of presenting the material in spite of this horrid limitation.
Thank you! Excited to see the sites u listed also. Blessings 💗
Her audiobook is amazing for bedtime book to sleep with. Used it for past year. Veey soothing voice
I'm ready for you to make "Uzbekistan to Wales: a Neanderthal Story"!
Thank you so much Stefan Milo for the very interesting interview with Dr Wragg Sykes!
FASCINATING! Really mindblowing. Thank you so much, so so much for this interview.
Neanderthal: Yo Ugg i found a weird rock
Ugg: SWEET now i can finally add a red rock to my weird rock collection
It interesting how in our western societies we so often pin everything into categories of winners and losers the victors and the vanquished but more often then not it doesn't really work like that and this is the perfect example of how there isn't always a clearly defined winner or loser.
Fascinating interview. Thank you Stefan!
Really enjoyed this nuanced description of Neanderthal culture from Dr. Wragg Sykes
What if Neanderthals made arrangements of twigs & feathers or weaving grass into shapes? What if they considered making permanent art that doesn't fade away sacrilegious?
possible. I read somewhere that a native American tribe made sand paintings with that intent. sorry. no link. something I read pre internet.
The Hopi culture conducts religious ceremonies in which shamans make elaborate sand paintings with different colors of sand over the course days and ritualistic chanting, then destroy the paintings as a way of symbolically cleansing the spirit of the subject of the ceremony.
@@fleetskipper1810 Buddhist monks do the same thing in Nepal!
I'm getting serious Deidara vibes from this... "The only true art is temporary, the truest expression of art is therefor explosions."
I knew way back before DNA evidence that I was part neanderthal!! Love your videos!
Thank you Rebecca Wragg Sykes so very much for your marvelous insight and vision. This is an hilarious topic and will most likely always be circular. Before we can discuss whether or not anyone, at any time, creates "art", we must absolutely define exactly and precisely what "art" is. Is it symbolism? Then we must define exactly and precisely the nature of symbolism. Regardless of how either "art" or "symbolism" is defined I think that a fair question would be, do MOST modern humans EVER exercise art or symbolism with their own minds and hands? Is self expression art? Today, song and dance are considered high forms of self expression and "art" that beg no use of tools of any kind and can not possibly ever produce any fossil evidence. Because any being has the potential to do anything does not mean that they could or would do whatever that anything might be. Today, how many homo sapiens practice (especially in what is called the "Western World") dance, song, the playing of any musical instrument, create graphic images of any kind, or create what could be called sculptural three dimensional forms or images? Perhaps it is that Neanderthals decided to not do certain things and not engage in certain practices; they knew they could, but decided not to.
If you ever get her on again, maybe you could get her to comment on symbols vs. animal. Genevieve von Petzinger has a great TED talk on the 32 common symbols in cave paintings which span large areas and long periods of time to be coincidence. Also her book is "The First Signs", published 2017.
Or better yet, try to get Genevieve on!
Thank you!
yeah that was an amazing talk on the 32 symbols
I wish people would consult with artists more when considering “symbolism” and art in archaeology. “Symbolism” also needs some review and possible dismissal.
Clay and mud on the skin provides protection from insects, protection from UV, as well as marking tribal identity and role etc. Also, black manganese dioxide is capable of aiding firestarting by lowering ignition point (cayalysis of ignition). Gah - she just now brought this up after I'd already written it down -
The Gibraltar engraved lines could also be from fire hardening wooden spears followed by rubbing to form points.
That was awesome! Though it could have been even more awesome had you brought up imagery if the discussion points :)
Well some Africans sometimes eat reddish powdery rock even today, most probably to counter Iron deficiency in their general diet....
In Australia they eat bits of termite mounds, which have iron in a form that can be easily absorbed.
I think all kids eat dirt and try mud paint and mud moccasins etc. Mud is wonderful.
Don't think Neanderthal's were brain dead or complete simpletons.
They probably were as cognisant of their surroundings and most likely did create art to relay pretty much the same things as us.
I totally agree.
They HAD to be more aware, more sentient, than chimps for example, and chimps are VERY aware,
@@Archaeopteryx128 Indeed, I think they were very much like us, except slight differences in thinking here and there. The greatest difference between us and them might have been in social structure.
I think they were just like native Americans but exceptions being obviously they didn’t have some technology’s like weaving that we know of. But as a Native Americans had uses for 2,700 plants imagine the knowledge of the land a creature had that’s been around a lot longer
I wish I could like this video more than once.
As a child of ten, after reading The Web of Life and discovering a chapter or two devoted to human evolution, I wished for the possibility that Homo Neanderthalensis was of a satisfactory intellect to produce art. I was thrilled with the chart illustrating at least some of the fossil skulls, I memorised them and have to this day at 60 been filled with wonderment as to how the whole mystery fits together.
I saw photos of the Neanderthal construction in the French grotto when Nature published it, my reaction was ''oh My GOD!. And then I wondered if it was the Neanderthal version of the paleolithic stone circles you find all over Europe and the British Isles.
Personally, I'm on the no neanderthal art side of this debate, but this was a fascinating interview nonetheless. I've listened several times. Good stuff Stefan
I would say it depends on how you define art......yes is my answer in as much as the creativity they expressed seemscto have surpassed the mere practical !
Really great stuff guys! Thanks for the quality content.
I'm surprised that we're still trying to classify Neanderthal {Denisovan, Cro-Magnon, etc} behavior around interpretations based in our own culture and perception. From DNA to archeology we can be confident that there were a wide variety of humans living side by side right up until the Younger Dryas. While the DNA says we did interbreed occasionally, I would think for the most part we'd have maintained seperation simply through habitat, if not culture.
The most cited genes drawn from Denisovan present in "us" is an altitude adaptation implying that they were a "high altitude" dweller. They'd be comfortable in steep and rocky habitats, sparse in vegetation. They were carving precision jade jewelry 40kya. They were exceptionally large people as well and would have no issue with the mega fauna running rampant during those years. I think once we start looking in the right places, we'll begin finding much more about this bunch.
Neanderthal were obviously the forest dwellers. The occipital bun they possess shows they had exceptional visual acuity, able to see things like fractures runing through flint that we'd never notice. WIithout soft tissue to examine we don't know if they had something ike eagle vision with an extremely high focus area surrounded by a wider but stil sharp field.
We, Sapiens, have one biological difference that allows two behaviors unique to us. One of those behaviors is unique among apes, the other unique in nature. We throw over arm. Every projectile ever found is associated with us. Our anatomy lends itself to this movement and is a combination of our joint mobility, our skulls, and our waist. Watch a javelin throw in slow motion and see what's involved in the over arm throw.
We're unique in this ability. This leads, as I said, to two behavioral differences. Firstly, we kill things at distance. No other animal does this as they all kill within grasp or within reach. At best they strike then back off while the other dies. We kill things 'over there' by choice, beginning with the spear and atlatl. An exceptionally large amount of our advancement - in context of 'technology' - surrounds this behavior of killing at distance. The second behavior is the mastery of swimming. All other apes are afraid of water, with good reason. While they can float and paddle about, staying alive for a bit, they don't have the ability to truly swim. They tend to do no more than bathe.They generally are afraid of water and would certainly avoid it if possible. This love of water by us indicates our "natural" environment, and one which we STILL tend towards, would be along ocean shores at river mouths. We've always used watercraft and boats, with Australia a glaring example of migration by boat over 60kya. There are humanoids rafting on cave walls dated around 80kya. While other apes avoid water, we thrive around it. Those very few examples of Sapiens skelton found are within a few miles of an ocean shore. We're beginning to find much more evidence of us down where the sea level was 15kya because that's where most of our traces are. Only in the last 12,000 years have we began to infiltrate the interiors of continents, after the previous inhabitants were gone into mythology..
I'm encouraged to hear Dr. Wragg Sykes cautions her perceptions with the recognition that these were NOT people like us and more than likely were wildly different in behavior and culture. Excellent podcast and I would love to hear more from her.
No, you're mistaken about everything you've stated. Why not read her book?
@@kadensmike8190 based on your recommendation? lol
Kick butt! Looking forward to digging in!
lovely conversation, thanx
Found Stefan's channel and binge watch everything. When you think you have watched everything about Neanderthals... Here's another 60min video on the topic?
Me: helllll yeaaahh!
Great work Stefan. Really like you channel.
Painting images is always a way of thinking out loud? Learning by Doing until it becomes Intuition is a kind of Lamarkian theory of Actual Intelligence, like the "Job Makes the Manager" is more influential than the Management making real improvement.
Intensely interesting talk. Thank you.
I have read that Neanderthal had unique finger features, but it has never really been unpacked in a way I could understand with any depth. I wonder if some of the anatomical differences between us modern humans and our cousins Neanderthals would deserve a video?
Miniature megalithic structure? So, like Stonehenge then?
You know, where the demons dwell, and the banshees live, and they do live well? I mean, it is only 18 inches after all.
Fascinating. If elephants and magpies have funeral rituals, it’s easy to imagine Neanderthals using decorative pigments.
Just read her book Kindred, most excellent timing, thank you Stefan
This video is great, it's also helped me get some good sleep you and Dr Wagg Sykes have nice conversational tones! Haha
That's true throughout our history. Every single time an idea threatens our "uniqueness", academia freaks out, whether it be the earth's place in the universe, or human behaviours, or anything else. I've always thought it strange that scientific minds can fail so wildly at objectivity without even noticing. Perhaps a desperate need to justify how special we are is the "unique" innate human quality they are searching for 😂
why do you single out academia?
I would argue the opposite- academia is where the changes come from. Galileo vs the church, Newton replacing piety with natural law, evolution, plate tectonics, chicxulub ending the Jurassic..... easy examples.
@@stripeytawney822 Academics tend to get singled out on the assumption they'd be immune to those problems, that they're supposed to be "better" than that nonsense.
When it comes to how various artifacts were used this can be complicated further by considering the young. Their playfulness and experimentation with what might be a tool for an adult, adds a element of randomness to the subject.
Because of the need for survival greater and lesser, depending on the circumstances, I see early pictographs and carvings as teaaching, directing, warning and lastly entertainment. Art comes in depending on the individual doing the communication.
Her book is a really good read, and highly recommended!
Great interview
I'm new to prehistory and early hominid studies. Why would the term "modern homosapien" be a horrible term? Is it how vague the term "modern" can be considering these studies cover thousands and thousands of years, meaning "modern" can refer to several variations of homosapiens throughout our evolution?
Maybe those rocks were cribs to hold piles of sleeping hay together. The stuff will spread without fencing. A deep pile is warm and covering.
With respect to hybridisation between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens sapiens and its relation with the emergence of symbolism on late Neanderthal sites, would in not be possible that the hybrid offsprings might had developed a greater cabability of symbolisation, and therefore would they be who made the symbols that their forebears were not yet capable of performing? In other words, may it be that the hybrid hominins (i.e., Neanderthal + Homo sapiens) who grew amidst Neanderthal groups introduced symbolism to their forebears? In few words, the hybrids would have been literally a bridge between species and would have more capabilities for symbolisation than their Neanderthal relatives.
What a cool damn conversation to have. 5 popcorn bags and 6 drinks for this daddy. 🤙🤘👍
What a wonderful talk and topic. Milo, I wonder if you could comment on those artifacts:
Portable-engravings-on-a-forest-elephant-bone-fragment-from-Bilzingsleben-Germany-c.png
Bovid-bone-fragment-bearing-10-grooves-Kozarnika-Cave-Belogradchik-Vidin-region.png
Thanks!
Alex
I was thinking, with the 300m cave 'build', where would they store meat eg safe from other people etc ?
Or where would they keep babies, safe, when they're out chasing food ? Maybe like other animals keep their cubs in caves, burrows etc.. cos it wouldn't matter about light etc..
Excellent Guest.
Neanderthals in Europe also used body ornamentation around 40,000 to 45,000 years ago.
White tail deer 'rattle' their antlers when they spaar or fight and hunter now rattle antlers to imitate it because it makes other buck deer come running. Certain noises do engender curiosity in some animals and might well have been a hunting technique.
That skull is surprisingly articulate!
The lines on the pigment rocks she is referring to were put on there so you could grind it easier... Try it!..