Hello! The LA Press text for the Salve Regina was specifically done for chanting according to the traditional Latin chant melody, which is, at best, awkward using the familiar translation in the St. Michael's edition. Here, we always do it in Latin (true for all the Marian Antiphons, year around) for both that reason and to maintain a tradition of using some Latin in our Offices (which are mostly in English). With minor edits to conform the text more closely to the Septuagint, we found the Coverdale translation better for chanting, more poetic, and more consistent with the great tradition of English-language sacred music, much of which over the last 500 years, used the Coverdale since that is what was printed in the Book of Common Prayer. It is interesting that the Psalms from the Authorized Version of the Bible (KJV) were never used in post-Reformation Church of England liturgies. On the other hand, I find the layout of the St. Michael's edition more user-friendly (more white space!) and I do like having the Latin on the facing pages. Ultimately, we opted to produce our own books for use in Choir, which include musical notation for the sung offices and organize the hours from morning to evening (without having to flip around) and from Sunday through Saturday (again, without so much jumping back and forth in the Diurnal). We use the Diurnal for the Collects and for feasts that have their own, particular Office (as opposed to the Commons). One difference that I don't think was noted in the video, is that the LA Press edition provides for both the rubrics of pre- and post-1962 praying of the hours. Thank you for your presentation! Dom Theodore, Abbot Monastery of Our Lady and Saint Laurence Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese, Western Rite Vicariate
@@domtheodorephillips1327 very nice hearing from you. I do think the Coverdale is better for chanting in English. I suppose it didn’t occur to me when making the video as most people would be either reading quietly or reciting the office. The rubrics are a nice insight on your part as well!
@@WesternOrthodox651 We use the L.A. Press edition. We have our own books based on it but with music and rearranged to make it more convenient to use without as much jumping around. Blessings!
The version of the Salve Regina used in the LAP book is what my Ordinariate Parish uses. When I asked the choirmaster about it, he told me it's easier to set to plainsong chant than the normal translation. Maybe that's why they went with it.
A fascinating comparison. I have never used the Ampleforth book, and did more or less wear out one of the LAP book, which I rather like because it's smaller. It was interesting to see the differences in translations. One of the well-known attribures of the Latin Rites is their straight-forward style, which is carried over, it seems, in the translation. I think that one of the goals of the several translators of Winfred Douglas's book, starting with Miles Coverdale, was to produce faithful translations that were better English. After all, the official language of the Roman Church is still Latin. The Douglas book also follows the older calendar, pre-1955 with a few benedictine twists to the 1911 calendar. Thanks for the video.
I think Winfred Douglas’ book does an overall good job of making a liturgical English translation. I am just much more comfortable with the St. Michael’s. Yes, definitely the 1955
Thanks for this excellent comparison video. I owned the Lancelot Andrewes Monastic Diurnal for a few years. However, a few years ago when I obtained my copy of The Anglican Breviary, I gave the Monastic Diunal away. I checked the translation for Hail Holy Queen in the Anglican Breviary. It is closer to the Roman Catholic translation than the one in the Monastic Diurnal. Most Lancelot Andrewes products are excellent. Their Monastic Diurnal could be constructed better. I prefer the Latin- English Monastic Diurnal to the Lancelot Andrewes Monastic Diurnal, but its still a worthwhile volume. Now that I also own the Second Edition of the Anglican Office Book, the only would need the Latino English Monastic Breviary for the Latin language equivalents. I have successfully stopped buying books, except for allowing myself one for Christmas and one for my birthday. My wife is happy about that. However, now that I'm appreciating the Latin originals every bit as much as the Anglican Catholic translations, thanks to my purchase of the Manual of Prayers published by TAN books last spring, I just might pick up that Latino English Monastic Diurnal for Christmas.
Thanks for this always engaging and informative compare-and-contrast video! I have the St Michael's Diurnal but wondered about the "other one" from Lancelot Andrewes and weighed getting that as well (as if I need another prayer book!). Your video gave me such a good peek inside that I am safely assured I can skip it. Its mangling of the Salve Regina was the final dealbreaker. One thing I like about the St. Michael's is how it fits so snugly in the hand with a satisfying heft. I always hold it, whereas the Divine Worship: Daily Office I lay flat on the table when using that book. Always good videos--thanks!
I truly love my St Michael's copy but my God I wish they would just use chronological page numbering instead of restarting at each section. Very rough to navigate when you first use it bc it says go to p.73 and if you're not sure where the Psalmody is then you're flipping through passing multiple page 73s
@@ConvincedCatholicismI have seen a mixed bagged of reviews on it through Amazon. Some say it’s cheaply made for the price, doesn’t capitalize the name of God, and has advertisements in the last 4 pages. While others say, it’s a very beautiful, well made, helpful for meditation and learning the rosary. So it’s hard to tell.
The antiphon Salve Regina is traditionally chanted from Trinity Sunday till the Saturday before Advent Sunday both inclusive. The authorship of " Hail, O Queen" is disputed. The last clause is usually admitted to be an exclamation uttered by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the cathedral of Spires. But the authorship of the rest is disputed, some ascribing it to Hermann the Cripple, others to one Peter of Monsoro, bishop of Compostella, others to one Adhemar, bishop of Podium (Puy-en-Velay). It seems to have been well known, at least in Spain, early in the twelfth century. See Roman Breviary 2nd edition 1908, edited by the Marquss of Bute Volume 1, Winter, p. 212. The Anglican Community of Saint Mary was responsible the Lancelot Andrews Press version of the Monastic Diurnal. All Bible passages are quoted from from the authorized version. The text used is the 1925 edition of the Breviarium Monasticum published in Bruges Belgium. The Saint Michael’s Abbey version of the Monastic Diurnal is a reprint of theMonastic Diurnal prepared by the Monks of St John’s Abbey in Collegeville Minnesota and published by the Belgian Dessain. The same Monks also prepared The Short Breviary The Psalms and readings are presumably the ones from the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. This edition was designed for Benedictine Sisters (and others) who were obliged to the pray office (but were dispensed from Matins "outside the Motherhouse.").
@@ConvincedCatholicism Differences in tranlation are alway going to show up here and there. Recently I noticed a difference in translation between in Collins' Translation of the Daily Office and other translations. The Missal readings for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross (September 14) includes a reading from the Book of Numbers 21:4B-9 and the Intercessions for Morning Prayer for September 14 on p. 1224 (Christian Prayer,Paulines Philippians edition) reference this reading. “Son of God, you healed the people of Israel when they looked upon the bronze serpent.” And again, “Son of Man, just as Moses raised up the serpent...” So there is obviously a connection between the reading in the Missal, and the Morning prayer in the Liturgy of the Hours for September 14. But when I checked The Divine Office Volume III, [Collins] p. 256* for the Sept 14 the intercessions were different. [See Also Daily Prayer (Collins p. 207*)], Son of God, you were raised up to draw all men to yourself. And “Son of Man, your death brought life to the world.” There’s no mention of Israel, the bronze serpent or Moses. So I went to the Liturgia Horarum volume 6, Preces Ad Laudes Matutinas, In Exaltatoine Sanctae Crucis (Septembris 14) p. 785 col. 1 : and I did find “signum serpentis,” “populum Israel” and “Moyse serpens.” Collins has it wrong.
Hello! The LA Press text for the Salve Regina was specifically done for chanting according to the traditional Latin chant melody, which is, at best, awkward using the familiar translation in the St. Michael's edition. Here, we always do it in Latin (true for all the Marian Antiphons, year around) for both that reason and to maintain a tradition of using some Latin in our Offices (which are mostly in English). With minor edits to conform the text more closely to the Septuagint, we found the Coverdale translation better for chanting, more poetic, and more consistent with the great tradition of English-language sacred music, much of which over the last 500 years, used the Coverdale since that is what was printed in the Book of Common Prayer. It is interesting that the Psalms from the Authorized Version of the Bible (KJV) were never used in post-Reformation Church of England liturgies.
On the other hand, I find the layout of the St. Michael's edition more user-friendly (more white space!) and I do like having the Latin on the facing pages. Ultimately, we opted to produce our own books for use in Choir, which include musical notation for the sung offices and organize the hours from morning to evening (without having to flip around) and from Sunday through Saturday (again, without so much jumping back and forth in the Diurnal). We use the Diurnal for the Collects and for feasts that have their own, particular Office (as opposed to the Commons).
One difference that I don't think was noted in the video, is that the LA Press edition provides for both the rubrics of pre- and post-1962 praying of the hours.
Thank you for your presentation!
Dom Theodore, Abbot
Monastery of Our Lady and Saint Laurence
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese, Western Rite Vicariate
@@domtheodorephillips1327 very nice hearing from you. I do think the Coverdale is better for chanting in English. I suppose it didn’t occur to me when making the video as most people would be either reading quietly or reciting the office. The rubrics are a nice insight on your part as well!
Which monastic diurnal is used in Ladyminister, the “LA press, or Saint Michael’s?
@@WesternOrthodox651 We use the L.A. Press edition. We have our own books based on it but with music and rearranged to make it more convenient to use without as much jumping around. Blessings!
@@domtheodorephillips1327 Thank you Abbot Theodore for letting me know!
The version of the Salve Regina used in the LAP book is what my Ordinariate Parish uses. When I asked the choirmaster about it, he told me it's easier to set to plainsong chant than the normal translation. Maybe that's why they went with it.
Yes. They try to make it more singable
A fascinating comparison. I have never used the Ampleforth book, and did more or less wear out one of the LAP book, which I rather like because it's smaller. It was interesting to see the differences in translations. One of the well-known attribures of the Latin Rites is their straight-forward style, which is carried over, it seems, in the translation. I think that one of the goals of the several translators of Winfred Douglas's book, starting with Miles Coverdale, was to produce faithful translations that were better English. After all, the official language of the Roman Church is still Latin. The Douglas book also follows the older calendar, pre-1955 with a few benedictine twists to the 1911 calendar. Thanks for the video.
I think Winfred Douglas’ book does an overall good job of making a liturgical English translation. I am just much more comfortable with the St. Michael’s. Yes, definitely the 1955
Thank you! Very helpful!
Thanks for this excellent comparison video. I owned the Lancelot Andrewes Monastic Diurnal for a few years. However, a few years ago when I obtained my copy of The Anglican Breviary, I gave the Monastic Diunal away.
I checked the translation for Hail Holy Queen in the Anglican Breviary. It is closer to the Roman Catholic translation than the one in the Monastic Diurnal.
Most Lancelot Andrewes products are excellent. Their Monastic Diurnal could be constructed better.
I prefer the Latin- English Monastic Diurnal to the Lancelot Andrewes Monastic Diurnal, but its still a worthwhile volume.
Now that I also own the Second Edition of the Anglican Office Book, the only would need the Latino English Monastic Breviary for the Latin language equivalents. I have successfully stopped buying books, except for allowing myself one for Christmas and one for my birthday. My wife is happy about that.
However, now that I'm appreciating the Latin originals every bit as much as the Anglican Catholic translations, thanks to my purchase of the Manual of Prayers published by TAN books last spring, I just might pick up that Latino English Monastic Diurnal for Christmas.
Autocorrect miscorrected me when I tried to type Latin-English a couple of times. 🙂
If only I had the strength to by just a book on Christmas and my birthday! The Anglican Office Book is a great option for many
I have the 1st Edition Benedictine Daily Prayer. I’m considering getting one of these forms of the Monastic Diurnal.
If you are Catholic and like Latin get the Farnborough one
Thanks for this always engaging and informative compare-and-contrast video! I have the St Michael's Diurnal but wondered about the "other one" from Lancelot Andrewes and weighed getting that as well (as if I need another prayer book!). Your video gave me such a good peek inside that I am safely assured I can skip it. Its mangling of the Salve Regina was the final dealbreaker. One thing I like about the St. Michael's is how it fits so snugly in the hand with a satisfying heft. I always hold it, whereas the Divine Worship: Daily Office I lay flat on the table when using that book. Always good videos--thanks!
@@g.p.ryecroft I am glad my videos allow for viewers to make informed decisions. The DW:DO is an excellent choice
I truly love my St Michael's copy but my God I wish they would just use chronological page numbering instead of restarting at each section. Very rough to navigate when you first use it bc it says go to p.73 and if you're not sure where the Psalmody is then you're flipping through passing multiple page 73s
Call me crazy but I sorta prefer the sectioned numbering
It would be neat to see a review on Matt Frads “A Pocket Guide to the Rosary” by Ascension Press.
Never thought of doing it. I may take a look thanks!
@@ConvincedCatholicismNo problem, and thanks!
@@ConvincedCatholicismI have seen a mixed bagged of reviews on it through Amazon. Some say it’s cheaply made for the price, doesn’t capitalize the name of God, and has advertisements in the last 4 pages. While others say, it’s a very beautiful, well made, helpful for meditation and learning the rosary. So it’s hard to tell.
The antiphon Salve Regina is traditionally chanted from Trinity Sunday till the Saturday before Advent Sunday both inclusive.
The authorship of " Hail, O Queen" is disputed. The last clause is usually admitted to be an exclamation uttered by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the cathedral of Spires. But the authorship of the rest is disputed, some ascribing it to Hermann the Cripple, others to one Peter of Monsoro, bishop of Compostella, others to one Adhemar, bishop of Podium (Puy-en-Velay). It seems to have been well known, at least in Spain, early in the twelfth century. See Roman Breviary 2nd edition 1908, edited by the Marquss of Bute Volume 1, Winter, p. 212.
The Anglican Community of Saint Mary was responsible the Lancelot Andrews Press version of the Monastic Diurnal. All Bible passages are quoted from from the authorized version. The text used is the 1925 edition of the Breviarium Monasticum published in Bruges Belgium.
The Saint Michael’s Abbey version of the Monastic Diurnal is a reprint of theMonastic Diurnal prepared by the Monks of St John’s Abbey in Collegeville Minnesota and published by the Belgian Dessain. The same Monks also prepared The Short Breviary
The Psalms and readings are presumably the ones from the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. This edition was designed for Benedictine Sisters (and others) who were obliged to the pray office (but were dispensed from Matins "outside the Motherhouse.").
This is incredibly informative. Thank you! I would love to know more. This is amazing
@@ConvincedCatholicism Differences in tranlation are alway going to show up here and there. Recently I noticed a difference in translation between in Collins' Translation of the Daily Office and other translations. The Missal readings for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross (September 14) includes a reading from the Book of Numbers 21:4B-9 and the Intercessions for Morning Prayer for September 14 on p. 1224 (Christian Prayer,Paulines Philippians edition) reference this reading. “Son of God, you healed the people of Israel when they looked upon the bronze serpent.” And again, “Son of Man, just as Moses raised up the serpent...” So there is obviously a connection between the reading in the Missal, and the Morning prayer in the Liturgy of the Hours for September 14. But when I checked The Divine Office Volume III, [Collins] p. 256* for the Sept 14 the intercessions were different. [See Also Daily Prayer (Collins p. 207*)], Son of God, you were raised up to draw all men to yourself. And “Son of Man, your death brought life to the world.” There’s no mention of Israel, the bronze serpent or Moses. So I went to the Liturgia Horarum volume 6, Preces Ad Laudes Matutinas, In Exaltatoine Sanctae Crucis (Septembris 14) p. 785 col. 1 : and I did find “signum serpentis,” “populum Israel” and “Moyse serpens.” Collins has it wrong.
@@michaelconnors7668 Yeah the collins is my preferred translation of the liturgy of the hours
The monastic diurnal have the pope pius 12 psalter ?
I am pretty sure no
I use the Anglo-Catholic one.
High church Anglican translations are always superior to their Roman counterparts
Its a matter of preference