Im surprised it wasn't talked about how some armies are currently strong with just their battleline. Tsons and Wardogs for example. They could be massive contenders in the new meta
Ya, the armies' with elite battleine might have the advantage, Until the wardog or Tsons squad HAS to do an action and forgoes shooting and cant charge, then its a negative part of elite infantry. the description on what an "action" means is going to be important.
I think Tyranids would get better slightly here. Unending swarm lists where battleline makes up 80% of your army will be even more stacked above the other detachments
7 หลายเดือนก่อน
@@SumsieBun There is a chance though that OC zero units can no longer do the new actions and that would effect Tyranids quite a lot.
Still thousand sons though, tzaangors are battleline and we're seeing more 20 man units led by a tzaangor with the umbralefic crystal enhancement for screening and point scoring already, now it might be an auto-include
I agree but that would affect biovore cheese. Battleline buffs might make up for it somewhat. Do you think itll make biovore obsolete? Its shooting is pretty garbo
The secret missions might work out for weak and beginner players. I (a weak beginner) got into a situation where I was move blocked by a chaff army. I ultimately tabled the guy but still lost to insufficient primary. Getting a character on the opponent's home objective is also the kind of thing that regularly happens with beginners where units just wander all over the place. I'm not saying the secret missions are a good idea, but they could benefit some people.
The one meme thing I'm thinking about with the battleline units for Space Marines is taking Heavy Intercessors and putting them in strategic reserves since if their points don't changed you can have a brick of 10 come out. While not a lot of firepower, having T6 with 3W can be a bit more of a mid-field thing to shift if your opponent isn't expecting it and especially if they can get on an objective and get the bonus to their save against damage 1 weapons.
I love how many mental gymnastics they have to do to avoid a Force organization chart... Just bring it back guys you can even adjust its power by having different formations make specific units count as troops or extend their Heavy support or Fast attack slots.
I think you probably wanna take the secret missions in certan cases: If there's a mission like take & hold, where you get 5 per point you hold, up to 15 per turn. If you got denied turn 2 and 3 the primary, or even a little bit of it and you only hold 1 objective on the 2nd and 1 on the 3rd battle round, you can only score 40 primary in total anyways. Therefore you can just opt to "just" hold your home objective and satisfy the other condition for the secret mission. That's probably easier than playing the objective game on. 40 points are still a lot.
There are situations where it will come up, and the ability to actually choose the mission, means you can almost tailor your list towards completing some of them.
In certain armies I think secret missions make for an easy uncounterable win. Especially super shooty factions like guard and Tau can just sit back at home, shoot you to death and then aren’t even punished for not playing objectives. They get 40 primary for free
Secret missions look great. From several youtubers I see people really misunderstand "unbroken wall"- This is really good in my opinion. I have tabled my opponents and still lost the game on several occassions. There are a number of armies that rely on early high pressure to prevent their opponent from moving onto objectives and scoring primaries. You need to beat them down in order to be able to move beyond your deployment zone, but when they can`t uphold the pressure the army collapses. However, if it`s already turn 3 and you don`t have any primary VPs it can be very hard to catch up. Secret missions and "Unbroken Wall" would have given me the game on at leat two of the games I`ve had the last couple of months.
Awesome! this is what we like to hear! sounds like GW has found a decent balance with the secret missions. Making the call on turn 3 is hard to do, especially if your going first turn 3 and have to make the early call.
They could have specified things like Deploy Teleport Homers or Cleanse-type actions as "Mission Actions" instead of just "Actions" for better clarity.
I know i will lean my lists towards battleline, maybe not a lot at first but just to test it out. some armies can get away with loads of quality battle line stuff.
I think that it will. Ironstorm Space Marines relies pretty heavily on dealing damage, however that makes sense right now when the primary and secondary missions are fairly passive - you really just need to be standing somewhere. However! If you need to be standing somewhere or doing something with a specific kind of unit, regardless of how violent your list is capable of being, you'll still need to score points. Even if you just include one or two battleline units, it's still probably worth the inclusion
With regards to the secret mission to table my opponent. I was in that situation last game. Orks got an early lead. Kept me off the objectives first couple of turns, and some not great secondary cards. However, I was withstanding their attacks and had almost wiped the orks out by end of turn 3. Orks player was up around 10 pts, and again secondaries werent going to help. I could table them by end of turn 5, as by then they were down to some looters and burner boyz. That secret mission would have put me 5 points ahead by the end of the game. Admittedly, it wont be worth doing a lot. That game was hindered by me not being able to drop down on an objective from deepstrike. Also my one fully healthy squad was too far away and couldnt get onto the enemy home objective intime.
You mentioned about allowing units that isn’t typically battleline to become it like the white scars one.. but I don’t see it in the rules for it? I am looking on the app as I don’t have my codex on me, where is that written? You mention it at 2:48
I'm curious to see what the fixed objectives are. If they are not battleline dependent, then people will just take fixed and continue to play the skew lists that everyone is playing.
I also had a lot of games where I play against Custodes and he holds the middle for 4 turns but by the end I table him and can hold the middle at the end of the game. I see play in secret missions. Tau doesn’t even have to play primary and just shoot from safety and get the points later.
Tabling the opponent and capturing all no man's land objectives while still losing could happen, i.e., against Sisters or Tyranids. Very strong in the primary game by trading units so the model count is low at the end. But very matchup-dependent indeed.
Good call, that seems to be the one people are talking about as the most doable, I just think if by turn 4-5 you might have enough to table your opponent, you could just be on the objectives anyways. Get the same amount of points . most turn 5's you can score big on primary if you opponent is tabled, usually 15. and you'd have to make that call on turn 3 which is the real difficult part, and also handicapping your primary score. its hard to wrap my smooth brain head around but i think soon we will have the experience to clarify it all up.
@hyperspacehobbies8400 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's definitely better than the Gambits. 👍 The "take objectives" rule at the end of the game also kind of favors battleline units, while it isn't clearly stated on the card like it is in the mission rule examples. If the opponent gets an early hold on the objectives with their elite units, you could, in theory, gather behind the line of sight with battleline units and drown the objectives with OC2 units on the last turn. Especially if you have the bottom of the turn. :D
This is my take for gambits, after turn three losing player and they have to be losing makes the last effort they select one objective in no man’s land and they have to try to control that objective by the end of the game if they are below 20 points in primary and they have control of the objective at the end of the game they score 25 points 20 points of primary or more than they can only score 20. They get to choose one second for the rest of the game and it has to be a secondary multiple rounds so if you’re tactical, you’re kind of switching over to fixed and if you’re already fixed, then you kinda have a list already cater to that so that’s probably part of your game plan anyways.
I remember when in 9th edition, they'd release the new chapter approved every few months, it was such a mess, I hated it. The entire game changed like 3 times a year. I'm glad we had leviathan for a year now, and now we get a new mission deck, to me this is the perfect cycle.
I think some factions just have really good battleline units, others have horrible battleline units and that will be a huge problem for some of us. If I think about Intercessors, I would never run more than 1 unit and then there are for example ork Boyz, which are fantastic in certain Detachment. Overall, horde armies I think will shine in the next mission pack.
That might be true, its going to be a big hit if your 20 man ork boyz squad has to forgo shooting and charging just to complete an action. so sometimes having the little battleline units can be better.
Yeah, I'm just thinking running like 2 or 3 Intercessor squads, that would be around 200 pts that can literally only do actions and next to no dmg or other things. Boyz are at least a pain to kill now with the rules they got, and they clap in combat if needed. I wish scouts or the phobos Marines were battleline, that would help a bit I believe. I also don't know a whole lot lol, just my 2 cents from playing SM for a while now
6 max units of Heavy Intercessors! 60 chonky battleline. It could finally happen. 60 Heavy Intercessors. 3 Redemptors and 3 Apothecary Biologis! Let's go! 😁
I'd have just preferred an update card pack rather than a full new deck. However, if this makes players field more battle line units, I'll be happy. It feels wrong that so many armies on the tabletop don't bring the traditional Troop choices.
Secret missions are like: "Hey... Have you tried just winning the game instead of losing?" And you, the player who was already losing is like "??? The heck do you think I've been trying to do??"
I am excited for new missions I've always built with troops battleline what ever they wanna call it. So for me it won't be a negative impact I was already fielding those units😅😊
Is 10th edition strong enough to lasts longer than the other ones have? would these mission packs help the life of it? As a very causal play (maybe a game every 2 months) it would be nice to see something that has some legs to it.
I wonder how it is going to work for armies that don't have good battle line or can't fit more then one squad of battle line in to a 2000pts. Or what if you play a DW terminator army and GW decided to just not give you battle line terminators for reason.
OH dang! thats insane! it might not be the best when one of those expensive units has to do an action and forgo shooting/charging (if that is how actions work now) though having the option for a full and effective army to be batte linet is mega strong.
The problem with terrain is not GW's layout. It is what the Grand Tournament Organizers (Not GW Organizers) make up on their own. No where in the core rules or Leviathan Mission Pack will you see a rule that ruins do not have open windows on the first floor. And many TO's use third party terrain that has no windows at all. This skews the game in favor of melee in my humble opinion. I know those organizers think the game is inherently skewed toward shooting. Some armies like Guard have nothing but shooting so they really are impaired in such events.
Oh that's an interesting way to do gambits. and the new secret missions will have something around that effect, instead you'll have to hold all the no mans land objectives. Difficult to do but fair, especially if your going second on turn 3.
Nids are in a tough spot for sure, they do have fast moving an disposable battle line which CAN be effective. but the squishiness of those bugs makes them hard to keep around.
@@hyperspacehobbies yeah. I'd just figured out a way to be relatively competitive without playing endless swarm. I'm hoping I can do the same in the new pack.
Steve I just watched your Salamanders match on play on tabletop and you actually won, Adrax Agatone halves the OC and they owe you some victory dice!
YA!
Im surprised it wasn't talked about how some armies are currently strong with just their battleline. Tsons and Wardogs for example. They could be massive contenders in the new meta
Ya, the armies' with elite battleine might have the advantage, Until the wardog or Tsons squad HAS to do an action and forgoes shooting and cant charge, then its a negative part of elite infantry. the description on what an "action" means is going to be important.
I think Tyranids would get better slightly here. Unending swarm lists where battleline makes up 80% of your army will be even more stacked above the other detachments
@@SumsieBun There is a chance though that OC zero units can no longer do the new actions and that would effect Tyranids quite a lot.
Still thousand sons though, tzaangors are battleline and we're seeing more 20 man units led by a tzaangor with the umbralefic crystal enhancement for screening and point scoring already, now it might be an auto-include
I agree but that would affect biovore cheese. Battleline buffs might make up for it somewhat. Do you think itll make biovore obsolete? Its shooting is pretty garbo
The secret missions might work out for weak and beginner players. I (a weak beginner) got into a situation where I was move blocked by a chaff army. I ultimately tabled the guy but still lost to insufficient primary. Getting a character on the opponent's home objective is also the kind of thing that regularly happens with beginners where units just wander all over the place. I'm not saying the secret missions are a good idea, but they could benefit some people.
That's a good point, and I think along with that, in smaller games like 1000 points they might play really differently.
The one meme thing I'm thinking about with the battleline units for Space Marines is taking Heavy Intercessors and putting them in strategic reserves since if their points don't changed you can have a brick of 10 come out. While not a lot of firepower, having T6 with 3W can be a bit more of a mid-field thing to shift if your opponent isn't expecting it and especially if they can get on an objective and get the bonus to their save against damage 1 weapons.
I love how many mental gymnastics they have to do to avoid a Force organization chart... Just bring it back guys you can even adjust its power by having different formations make specific units count as troops or extend their Heavy support or Fast attack slots.
I think you probably wanna take the secret missions in certan cases:
If there's a mission like take & hold, where you get 5 per point you hold, up to 15 per turn.
If you got denied turn 2 and 3 the primary, or even a little bit of it and you only hold 1 objective on the 2nd and 1 on the 3rd battle round, you can only score 40 primary in total anyways.
Therefore you can just opt to "just" hold your home objective and satisfy the other condition for the secret mission. That's probably easier than playing the objective game on.
40 points are still a lot.
There are situations where it will come up, and the ability to actually choose the mission, means you can almost tailor your list towards completing some of them.
In certain armies I think secret missions make for an easy uncounterable win. Especially super shooty factions like guard and Tau can just sit back at home, shoot you to death and then aren’t even punished for not playing objectives. They get 40 primary for free
Secret missions look great. From several youtubers I see people really misunderstand "unbroken wall"- This is really good in my opinion. I have tabled my opponents and still lost the game on several occassions. There are a number of armies that rely on early high pressure to prevent their opponent from moving onto objectives and scoring primaries. You need to beat them down in order to be able to move beyond your deployment zone, but when they can`t uphold the pressure the army collapses. However, if it`s already turn 3 and you don`t have any primary VPs it can be very hard to catch up. Secret missions and "Unbroken Wall" would have given me the game on at leat two of the games I`ve had the last couple of months.
Awesome! this is what we like to hear! sounds like GW has found a decent balance with the secret missions. Making the call on turn 3 is hard to do, especially if your going first turn 3 and have to make the early call.
They could have specified things like Deploy Teleport Homers or Cleanse-type actions as "Mission Actions" instead of just "Actions" for better clarity.
Hmmm I like this "mission action" Idea a lot.
Will the emphasis on battleline change the list building for armies at all? Will it heavily alter SM Ironstorm lists?
I know i will lean my lists towards battleline, maybe not a lot at first but just to test it out. some armies can get away with loads of quality battle line stuff.
I think that it will. Ironstorm Space Marines relies pretty heavily on dealing damage, however that makes sense right now when the primary and secondary missions are fairly passive - you really just need to be standing somewhere.
However! If you need to be standing somewhere or doing something with a specific kind of unit, regardless of how violent your list is capable of being, you'll still need to score points. Even if you just include one or two battleline units, it's still probably worth the inclusion
I am personally very, very excited for a shake up. Leviathan was fun for the first like, 5 months, and then I was kinda burnt out.
Ya! I wasnt yet bored with this card pack, but a new one sounds great, really going to stir up the meta.
With regards to the secret mission to table my opponent. I was in that situation last game. Orks got an early lead. Kept me off the objectives first couple of turns, and some not great secondary cards. However, I was withstanding their attacks and had almost wiped the orks out by end of turn 3. Orks player was up around 10 pts, and again secondaries werent going to help. I could table them by end of turn 5, as by then they were down to some looters and burner boyz. That secret mission would have put me 5 points ahead by the end of the game. Admittedly, it wont be worth doing a lot. That game was hindered by me not being able to drop down on an objective from deepstrike. Also my one fully healthy squad was too far away and couldnt get onto the enemy home objective intime.
Awesome! loving these gambit stories.
You mentioned about allowing units that isn’t typically battleline to become it like the white scars one.. but I don’t see it in the rules for it? I am looking on the app as I don’t have my codex on me, where is that written? You mention it at 2:48
It's actually the dark angels, ravenwing Detachment, I don't know what the actual name for it is.
They get to turn outriders into battleline
@@chrisprime7767 ah thank you, explains why I couldn’t see it
I'm curious to see what the fixed objectives are. If they are not battleline dependent, then people will just take fixed and continue to play the skew lists that everyone is playing.
ohh that's an interesting point. if there will be a big difference with fix vs tac.
I also had a lot of games where I play against Custodes and he holds the middle for 4 turns but by the end I table him and can hold the middle at the end of the game. I see play in secret missions. Tau doesn’t even have to play primary and just shoot from safety and get the points later.
The secret missions seem doable with the right army. Taking your opponents home objective with say, an autarch wayleaper seems very doable.
Ya I think that one can benefit a lot of armies. Plenty of speedy or deep strike Warlords out there.
Tabling the opponent and capturing all no man's land objectives while still losing could happen, i.e., against Sisters or Tyranids. Very strong in the primary game by trading units so the model count is low at the end. But very matchup-dependent indeed.
Good call, that seems to be the one people are talking about as the most doable, I just think if by turn 4-5 you might have enough to table your opponent, you could just be on the objectives anyways. Get the same amount of points . most turn 5's you can score big on primary if you opponent is tabled, usually 15. and you'd have to make that call on turn 3 which is the real difficult part, and also handicapping your primary score. its hard to wrap my smooth brain head around but i think soon we will have the experience to clarify it all up.
@hyperspacehobbies8400 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's definitely better than the Gambits. 👍
The "take objectives" rule at the end of the game also kind of favors battleline units, while it isn't clearly stated on the card like it is in the mission rule examples. If the opponent gets an early hold on the objectives with their elite units, you could, in theory, gather behind the line of sight with battleline units and drown the objectives with OC2 units on the last turn. Especially if you have the bottom of the turn. :D
This is my take for gambits, after turn three losing player and they have to be losing makes the last effort they select one objective in no man’s land and they have to try to control that objective by the end of the game if they are below 20 points in primary and they have control of the objective at the end of the game they score 25 points 20 points of primary or more than they can only score 20.
They get to choose one second for the rest of the game and it has to be a secondary multiple rounds so if you’re tactical, you’re kind of switching over to fixed and if you’re already fixed, then you kinda have a list already cater to that so that’s probably part of your game plan anyways.
Great as ever gents !
Thank you!!
I remember when in 9th edition, they'd release the new chapter approved every few months, it was such a mess, I hated it. The entire game changed like 3 times a year.
I'm glad we had leviathan for a year now, and now we get a new mission deck, to me this is the perfect cycle.
100% agree, just enough time with the old deck to not got bored with it.
I 100% agree. This is definitely the right amount of time!
I think some factions just have really good battleline units, others have horrible battleline units and that will be a huge problem for some of us.
If I think about Intercessors, I would never run more than 1 unit and then there are for example ork Boyz, which are fantastic in certain Detachment.
Overall, horde armies I think will shine in the next mission pack.
That might be true, its going to be a big hit if your 20 man ork boyz squad has to forgo shooting and charging just to complete an action. so sometimes having the little battleline units can be better.
Yeah, I'm just thinking running like 2 or 3 Intercessor squads, that would be around 200 pts that can literally only do actions and next to no dmg or other things. Boyz are at least a pain to kill now with the rules they got, and they clap in combat if needed.
I wish scouts or the phobos Marines were battleline, that would help a bit I believe.
I also don't know a whole lot lol, just my 2 cents from playing SM for a while now
6 max units of Heavy Intercessors! 60 chonky battleline. It could finally happen. 60 Heavy Intercessors. 3 Redemptors and 3 Apothecary Biologis! Let's go! 😁
Oh shit that name graphic is🔥
YA! it took me forever to make but I had a vision.
I'd have just preferred an update card pack rather than a full new deck. However, if this makes players field more battle line units, I'll be happy. It feels wrong that so many armies on the tabletop don't bring the traditional Troop choices.
Secret missions are like: "Hey... Have you tried just winning the game instead of losing?"
And you, the player who was already losing is like "??? The heck do you think I've been trying to do??"
Hilarious, and I 100% agree, It is possible to do these outlandish quests but its so difficult.
I am excited for new missions
I've always built with troops battleline what ever they wanna call it. So for me it won't be a negative impact I was already fielding those units😅😊
ya same, at least taking a few, in each game I play. I wonder if ill have to take more...
Bebop the Great Unclean One!!
YAAA!
I would for sure take bulbasteve as my starter
He just TRASHES the first few gym leaders.
Is 10th edition strong enough to lasts longer than the other ones have? would these mission packs help the life of it? As a very causal play (maybe a game every 2 months) it would be nice to see something that has some legs to it.
I wonder how it is going to work for armies that don't have good battle line or can't fit more then one squad of battle line in to a 2000pts. Or what if you play a DW terminator army and GW decided to just not give you battle line terminators for reason.
Well if your playing all DW Terminators you might not have a problem haha. But you may want to bring some rank and file guys just to do silly actions.
Welcome to the desk, GU Bebop. Birds aren’t real.
The earth is flat, Birds are Drones.
Chaos Knights are gonna go buckwild. Right now my entire 2k list is Battleline...
OH dang! thats insane! it might not be the best when one of those expensive units has to do an action and forgo shooting/charging (if that is how actions work now) though having the option for a full and effective army to be batte linet is mega strong.
The reason they wont rename Chilling Rain to Sunny Day is because they are based in Nottingham. Sunny Days are very rare 😉
HAHA!
Hahahahaha, totally!
Whew! Glad my 6x20 Ork Boyz will be more effective
MORE EFFECTIVE!?! have you had trouble with them being *gulp* ineffective? the new green tide detachment can make regular boys an absolute terror.
@@hyperspacehobbies Yeah, but my opponents still score Primary sometimes. Can't have that! ;)
The problem with terrain is not GW's layout. It is what the Grand Tournament Organizers (Not GW Organizers) make up on their own. No where in the core rules or Leviathan Mission Pack will you see a rule that ruins do not have open windows on the first floor. And many TO's use third party terrain that has no windows at all. This skews the game in favor of melee in my humble opinion. I know those organizers think the game is inherently skewed toward shooting. Some armies like Guard have nothing but shooting so they really are impaired in such events.
Not having windows closed skews the game to shooting. You're not going to win either way.
I like more battleline support, I hate secret missions
Oh that's an interesting way to do gambits. and the new secret missions will have something around that effect, instead you'll have to hold all the no mans land objectives. Difficult to do but fair, especially if your going second on turn 3.
Tyranids crying in "my battle line units are all t3 5+ or 6+ save.
Tyranids laughing when theres 120 of them though
@@Meako92 until you want to pay anything but endless swarm and get tabled anyway, giving up half of the gambits
Nids are in a tough spot for sure, they do have fast moving an disposable battle line which CAN be effective. but the squishiness of those bugs makes them hard to keep around.
@@hyperspacehobbies yeah. I'd just figured out a way to be relatively competitive without playing endless swarm. I'm hoping I can do the same in the new pack.