Your analysis of this accident is right on! I believe the sophistication of aircraft and flight management systems are causing pilots to lose their proficiency at hand flying and not fully realizing the danger of it. Your advice on not letting an autopilot fly into any weather situation that you would not feel totally confident of your own ability to safely handle by hand is the best I’ve heard! I fear we’re seeing a trend now that may get even worse before it gets better.
@AlbertHess-xy7ky your comment shows your narrow mindedness, ignorance, and complete lack of class in the midst of a horrific crash which took the lives of those who were loved and cherished. This accident and tragic loss of life has nothing to do with race, color, or creed.
@@stretch737 Right on... You should have seen what we went thru with mid sixties RADAR. could not see the imbeded part. Yikes. We were very careful. Plus I think the jumbo jet helped.
@AlbertHess-xy7ky It’s sad and pathetic you are working overtime to place your personal “label” on the individuals in this crash who lost their life. 🙏🏼
Auto-pilot is a wonderful thing and for casual or long distance flights it's ideal. Bad weather is something else entirely. Auto-pilot will fly you into such conditions but at some point, will probably kick off and that's when you find out how hard the system was working to keep the airplane straight and level. I can imagine many pilots being caught unawares. A sad story.
I've seen "AP disconnect" when in rough turbulence in the mountains with my little RV-8, and it's not fun. I don't know why the AP in a large aircraft like the PC-12 gives up when the going gets rough. I think we should look at stronger servos, and better software to handle cases like this. I think a more robust AP that works in any conditions would save lives. Not in any way trying to take the responsibility from the pilot, but I think technically we can do better in these extreme circumstances.
too much to bear. Their daughter Larissa Haynie Strawn died on July 15, 2024 And the service was as recent as July 19, 2024. I fly in a Sierra with my friend and if he planned a flight across country 7 days after a huge loss of a 42 year old daughter, I would not have flown with him. Not to mention that she was predeceased by her brother Jared. There is a time when we need to step back and grieve and "be still" for a while. This is just a sad, sad story for a beautiful husband and wife of 42 years, doing what they thought was right taking the Nelons and Nathan as well as their assistant to board an Alaska Cruise. All of our hearts are broken.
I believe you are right as the grief is a BIG factor in this. It's too much.As a parent who has lost one child ( not two as this dear couple, the Haynies, did), we were in a fog so many months we couldn't function. So sorry for your losses.
It seems this was really kept quiet, the very recent loss of the Haynie’s daughter. I thought the same thing, was the pilot rested, healthy, and truly mentally capable of so much responsibility so soon. I just wondered… No matter what, so very sad & and a big loss to the gospel music community, & all of us. God please bless Autumn & Todd, & every family member with your Presence, & thank you for how this family will continue to bless us through your strength.✝️
It took me almost a year after my daughter passed to sort of get out of the "fog" and numbness and really feel it. And another year to be back to a somewhat "normal" state. 12 years later it still affects me deeply, although not debilitating as it used to be. I dont think about her constantly anymore. Although i do think of her often, the thoughts dont intrude into flight and things. Usually just the quiet times when im alone and less active. This poor family. All i can do is pray for the surviving members and use this as a lesson. I hope they find peace someday
Excellent analysis and presentation. I appreciate the review on spiral recovery - can not hear that enough. Level the wings first and if necessary let go of the yoke entirely. Thanks for your insight.
As a Commercial Pilot who is always concerned about safety, I am troubled as to why the Pilot on this aircraft did not have an appropriately rated Pilot with while carrying passengers in that complex aircraft. I am a fan of the musical family who lost their lives in a horrible manner.
The Nelons....a name synonymous with Southern Gospel music, along with groups like Wendy Bagwell and the Sonlighters, The Hemphills, The Hinsons, Gov. Jimmie Davis, The Lewis Family, The Hoxworths, The Kingsmen among others. Kelly Nelon (Clark or Thompson, however best remembered) got a big start with her father, the late Rex Nelon, through The Rex Nelon Singers, and the first version of The Nelons. Tragically, they join secular country and rock music greats like Patsy Cline, Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, The Big Bopper and John Denver in passing in such similar fashion: plane crashes. (True, there are others, but these came to mind immediately.) I can imagine that Gospel Stations, especially Southern Gospel stations, have had tributes to the Nelons, and specials featuring their music, and can gather that the NQC will have a tribute to them in the next convention. RIP to Kelly, her husband, daughter,son in law, and others that were in that flight.
What are your thoughts on the string of accidents that seem to implicate the autopilot’s acceleration limitation resulting in pilots inappropriately handling disconnect in adverse conditions? This seems highly similar to the medical PC-12 crash in Nevada early last year.
It's definitely a problem. As avionics have become more advanced, flight training has changed. Much emphasis is put on managing the systems, and not as much on basic flying ability. Back when I was a flight instructor, I would dim the screens and work with students on looking outside the airplane. It's a big world out there! 😁
@@GeneStuarthave you ever been told the reasoning behind the -0.3G to 1.6G limitation of the KAP140 system? I started studying electrical engineering specifically because of this problem in this aircraft, it does not make sense to me yet.
If you have marginal hand flying skills and the auto pilot disconnects put the gear down and re set power. A moderate power setting will put you at 150 to 160 knots. If you still can’t maintain control you will have a much better chance of regaining control with the drag. The biggest issue is the mis conception that light turbo props are easy to fly. They are very easy, until they’re not. If you ask this owner about the Pilatus he would proceed to tell you how easy it is to fly, I don’t know how many times I have heard this.
They don't want the autopilot pushing or pulling too hard. They can't have the autopilot be responsible for an upset, so they give it kid gloves. Big control inputs from an autopilot are frowned upon.
Good analysis. On the single vs. dual pilot argument, I would add private vs. professional. It's more a question of training and attitude in my view. I like the idea that operators of any aircraft should be comfortable hand flying it. That requires practice, practice and more practice.
Thank you! I don't think so. The time of useful consciousness at FL260 is several minutes. The pilot likely would've become aware of a decompression, advised ATC, and taken action before becoming hypoxic.
Thanks for sharing your insight esp. as one that flights the PC-12. I don't think you mentioned it but what about the age of the pilot? Certainly that could have been a factor here and maybe more should be talking about it. Diminished cognitive and sensory acuity I could most certainly play into this scenario I would think.
The pilot was only 67 with no cognitive or impaired abilities. I know this because he was my brother and was obsessed with staying up to date as far as training and plane maintenance.
Absent any medical event, there are two causations of passenger loss of consciousness: excessive G forces and sudden lack of pressurization. Unless the aircraft is able to handle very high G-forces (such as an acrobatically-rated craft or military fighter), the point of loss of consciousness will occur at sudden de-pressurization / aircraft breakup rather than from excessive G forces. At that point, and dependent upon altitude, loss of consciousness will likely occur in seconds to a minute or so.......
Interesting commentary thank you. I’d suggest a deeper look into icing. FL260 is prime summer icing altitude. The pilot moved from 240 for a reason, could have been icing up?
The pilot was instrument rated , multi qualified, I’m not sure if having only a private pilot certification would indicate the Big Pilatus would be to much for him.
He was a very experienced pilot...the latest we heard here in Ga is auto pilot may not have been the cause...the Nelons are a huge legacy in Southern gospel...Autumn the only daughter left is expecting in Dec...a huge ..unimaginable nightmare😢
@@AlbertHess-xy7ky I didn’t state it was over weight. It was a HEAVY plane which flies differently and is slower to respond than a lighter plane especially in bad weather.
@@ChimeExpress When it comes to heavy weather, be it boats or planes, bigger is better. The cause of this crash was an incompetent pilot. His focus was being MAGA, and the greater glory of God.
Somewhere I heard on another video that the Pilot owned this airplane. Didn't mention how long he had owned it or how many hours of experience he had flying it. Or what other planes he had experience flying. So sad!!
My heart is still broken. Especially for Autumn. So young, so much responsibility. So much potential. God, please keep her, Jamie, baby boy, Todd, Rhonda,Jason 's parents, Nathan's family, and the families of the other 3 people who perished. Comfort them, surround them with your love. AMEN
I am about to show my lack of knowledge concerning this subject. I will inquire anyway. If they are in a graveyard spiral at 26,000 feet per minute. How would leveling the wings help? You have less than a minute to do this? It would certainly take the plane time to adjust. One minute is nothing. Also, the sudden decompressing of the aircraft could cause the lungs to collapse. Thus, leading to an unconscious state? Must hope this never happens to them. It doesn't mean it can't. Spatial disorientation is difficult to overcome. It doesn't only happen dealing with aircraft. It increases with age or other medical problems. I am only inquiring. I am not assuming anything. I sure to travel as a flight nurse. Total focus at that time was on the patient.
You're back!! This was such a treat to see pop into my sub box out of the blue :D. It's interesting to see this kind of video from you. At one point, I wanted to ask for your brief take on such incidents, but figured it was a dumb question because, from many accidents I've seen and read about, every one involving the PC-12 is due to very preventable pilot error. So I figured maybe we reached a point where crashes stopped being freak accidents we try to learn from, moreso just history repeating itself, making them maybe even more tragic for involved parties -- at least for the PC-12 and incredibly dependable aircraft like it. That said, I'm still glad for you to have shared your perspective. And I'm looking forward to what the PC-12 boot camp might be!
The vast majority of aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. And, the specific types of errors haven't changed all that much over the decades. The accident statistics are stubborn. The only thing predictable about human behavior is that it's unpredictable.😁 Hope to see you at the bootcamp!
Does anyone think that it's a good idea to have a second pilot if the one pilot is a senior citizen(older than 65 y/o)...as was the case in this crash? I'm one year younger than this pilot(67 y/o), and I know that my reaction time is not what it used to be. Just a thought. I truly wish that this group had flown commercial...since it was cross-country. May they all RIP.
If the autopilot abruptly disconnects, it may startle the less proficient pilot who may let his instincts takeover and overreact , instead of referring to the HSI which all aircraft have and to level the wings . I dont believe single GA pilots hand fly the aircraft enough to maintain their proficiency and rely too heavily on automation .
Your analysis of this accident is right on! I believe the sophistication of aircraft and flight management systems are causing pilots to lose their proficiency at hand flying and not fully realizing the danger of it. Your advice on not letting an autopilot fly into any weather situation that you would not feel totally confident of your own ability to safely handle by hand is the best I’ve heard! I fear we’re seeing a trend now that may get even worse before it gets better.
Thanks, and I completely agree!
This MAGA amateur did not have any experience experience in hand flying this aircraft in heavy weather.
@AlbertHess-xy7ky your comment shows your narrow mindedness, ignorance, and complete lack of class in the midst of a horrific crash which took the lives of those who were loved and cherished. This accident and tragic loss of life has nothing to do with race, color, or creed.
@@AlbertHess-xy7kyyou aren’t real smart are you Albert
@@stretch737 Right on... You should have seen what we went thru with mid sixties RADAR. could not see the imbeded part. Yikes. We were very careful. Plus I think the jumbo jet helped.
Thank you for taking the time to explain.
I for one appreciate you being respectful of the souls on board. The world truly lost some great talent.
MAGA talent.
@AlbertHess-xy7ky
It’s sad and pathetic you are working overtime to place your personal “label” on the individuals in this crash who lost their life. 🙏🏼
@@wildflower5554 A proud MAGA pilot.
@@neatstuff1988 Bible Babble
@@AlbertHess-xy7ky The take away is this m odel is a killer. Dont be proud an think you are invincible.
Auto-pilot is a wonderful thing and for casual or long distance flights it's ideal. Bad weather is something else entirely. Auto-pilot will fly you into such conditions but at some point, will probably kick off and that's when you find out how hard the system was working to keep the airplane straight and level. I can imagine many pilots being caught unawares. A sad story.
I've seen "AP disconnect" when in rough turbulence in the mountains with my little RV-8, and it's not fun. I don't know why the AP in a large aircraft like the PC-12 gives up when the going gets rough. I think we should look at stronger servos, and better software to handle cases like this. I think a more robust AP that works in any conditions would save lives. Not in any way trying to take the responsibility from the pilot, but I think technically we can do better in these extreme circumstances.
too much to bear. Their daughter Larissa Haynie Strawn died on July 15, 2024 And the service was as recent as July 19, 2024. I fly in a Sierra with my friend and if he planned a flight across country 7 days after a huge loss of a 42 year old daughter, I would not have flown with him. Not to mention that she was predeceased by her brother Jared. There is a time when we need to step back and grieve and "be still" for a while. This is just a sad, sad story for a beautiful husband and wife of 42 years, doing what they thought was right taking the Nelons and Nathan as well as their assistant to board an Alaska Cruise. All of our hearts are broken.
I believe you are right as the grief is a BIG factor in this. It's too much.As a parent who has lost one child ( not two as this dear couple, the Haynies, did), we were in a fog so many months we couldn't function. So sorry for your losses.
It seems this was really kept quiet, the very recent loss of the Haynie’s daughter. I thought the same thing, was the pilot rested, healthy, and truly mentally capable of so much responsibility so soon. I just wondered…
No matter what, so very sad & and a big loss to the gospel music community, & all of us. God please bless Autumn & Todd, & every family member with your Presence, & thank you for how this family will continue to bless us
through your strength.✝️
It took me almost a year after my daughter passed to sort of get out of the "fog" and numbness and really feel it. And another year to be back to a somewhat "normal" state. 12 years later it still affects me deeply, although not debilitating as it used to be. I dont think about her constantly anymore. Although i do think of her often, the thoughts dont intrude into flight and things. Usually just the quiet times when im alone and less active. This poor family. All i can do is pray for the surviving members and use this as a lesson. I hope they find peace someday
Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with anything. SMH.
So .. ugh speechless
Excellent analysis and presentation. I appreciate the review on spiral recovery - can not hear that enough. Level the wings first and if necessary let go of the yoke entirely. Thanks for your insight.
Thank you!
I think leveling the wings and letting the craft level itself out will be difficult if you’re also in convective weather. Don’t you agree?
Thanks for taking the time to explain 🙏🏼
As a Commercial Pilot who is always concerned about safety, I am troubled as to why the Pilot on this aircraft did not have an appropriately rated Pilot with while carrying passengers in that complex aircraft.
I am a fan of the musical family who lost their lives in a horrible manner.
Pretty easy, when you think of it - he'd have exceeded max allowable weight.
They were so happy in Nebraska City... did anyone see the video?
The Nelons....a name synonymous with Southern Gospel music, along with groups like Wendy Bagwell and the Sonlighters, The Hemphills, The Hinsons, Gov. Jimmie Davis, The Lewis Family, The Hoxworths, The Kingsmen among others. Kelly Nelon (Clark or Thompson, however best remembered) got a big start with her father, the late Rex Nelon, through The Rex Nelon Singers, and the first version of The Nelons. Tragically, they join secular country and rock music greats like Patsy Cline, Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, The Big Bopper and John Denver in passing in such similar fashion: plane crashes. (True, there are others, but these came to mind immediately.) I can imagine that Gospel Stations, especially Southern Gospel stations, have had tributes to the Nelons, and specials featuring their music, and can gather that the NQC will have a tribute to them in the next convention. RIP to Kelly, her husband, daughter,son in law, and others that were in that flight.
Great stuff. Thanks!
What are your thoughts on the string of accidents that seem to implicate the autopilot’s acceleration limitation resulting in pilots inappropriately handling disconnect in adverse conditions?
This seems highly similar to the medical PC-12 crash in Nevada early last year.
It's definitely a problem. As avionics have become more advanced, flight training has changed. Much emphasis is put on managing the systems, and not as much on basic flying ability. Back when I was a flight instructor, I would dim the screens and work with students on looking outside the airplane. It's a big world out there! 😁
@@GeneStuarthave you ever been told the reasoning behind the -0.3G to 1.6G limitation of the KAP140 system? I started studying electrical engineering specifically because of this problem in this aircraft, it does not make sense to me yet.
If you have marginal hand flying skills and the auto pilot disconnects put the gear down and re set power. A moderate power setting will put you at 150 to 160 knots. If you still can’t maintain control you will have a much better chance of regaining control with the drag. The biggest issue is the mis conception that light turbo props are easy to fly. They are very easy, until they’re not. If you ask this owner about the Pilatus he would proceed to tell you how easy it is to fly, I don’t know how many times I have heard this.
They don't want the autopilot pushing or pulling too hard. They can't have the autopilot be responsible for an upset, so they give it kid gloves. Big control inputs from an autopilot are frowned upon.
@@Jkm455 What should the limits be?
Thank you for sharing this with us. I dont believe that anyone else will ever really tell us what happened on that fateful day. 😢
Good analysis. On the single vs. dual pilot argument, I would add private vs. professional. It's more a question of training and attitude in my view. I like the idea that operators of any aircraft should be comfortable hand flying it. That requires practice, practice and more practice.
To much aircraft for a private pilot.
Auto pilot kicked off in turbulence lost control the aircraft because it’s not instrument proficient like most pilots out there GA
Wrong 100 per cent wrong
Got that right!
You have been the best at telling us things and I thank you. Do you think there could have been depressurization?
Thank you! I don't think so. The time of useful consciousness at FL260 is several minutes. The pilot likely would've become aware of a decompression, advised ATC, and taken action before becoming hypoxic.
Thanks for sharing your insight esp. as one that flights the PC-12. I don't think you mentioned it but what about the age of the pilot? Certainly that could have been a factor here and maybe more should be talking about it. Diminished cognitive and sensory acuity I could most certainly play into this scenario I would think.
Great point, and you're right!
The pilot was only 67 with no cognitive or impaired abilities. I know this because he was my brother and was obsessed with staying up to date as far as training and plane maintenance.
MAGA
@@AlbertHess-xy7kyphloop
@@ConstanceSims-p5wi am sorry for your loss. God bless!
At what point would the passengers loose consciousness?
Absent any medical event, there are two causations of passenger loss of consciousness: excessive G forces and sudden lack of pressurization. Unless the aircraft is able to handle very high G-forces (such as an acrobatically-rated craft or military fighter), the point of loss of consciousness will occur at sudden de-pressurization / aircraft breakup rather than from excessive G forces. At that point, and dependent upon altitude, loss of consciousness will likely occur in seconds to a minute or so.......
The in flight breakup occured at FL20 - no one lost consciousness- unfortunately.
Dismemberment.
@@PaulLoveless-Cincinnati how do you know?
@PaulLoveless-Cincinnati
Yes they was unconscious and passed away before they hit the ground get your facts straight.
Interesting commentary thank you. I’d suggest a deeper look into icing. FL260 is prime summer icing altitude. The pilot moved from 240 for a reason, could have been icing up?
The weather is very bad and to have a single pilot which may not experience enough is very risky flight. RIP.
Invincible MAGA man
@@AlbertHess-xy7ky ????
@@hafizuddinmohdlowhim8426 Obvious Trump derangement syndrome. It's an inevitabler byproduct of communist indoctrination.
@@hafizuddinmohdlowhim8426 He was an out and proud MAGA man.
some pilots cannot fly without the autopilot.
Correct
Pilots who can not fly without auto pilot are called passengers not pilots
could be stall by ice, due to the spiral vertical fall
as a vfr pilot I often wonder how many of these pilots could fly in this situation
None. At 26,000 feet you are in class A airspace and you are required to hold an instrument certification. You sure you're a pilot?
@@chuckschillingvideos and like I said how many IFR rated pilots could actually fly the
airplane without the autopilot and yes im sure maybe :)
When you mean pull the airplane apart? Do you mean the wings coming off? Or like cutting the plane in half?
Certain parts are going to fail in extreme g loads the outer wing panel the tail for example
Severe turbulance.
Do you teach flying?
I do.
The pilot was instrument rated , multi qualified, I’m not sure if having only a private pilot certification would indicate the Big Pilatus would be to much for him.
it was.
Way to much, leave that aircraft to the professionals
He was a very experienced pilot...the latest we heard here in Ga is auto pilot may not have been the cause...the Nelons are a huge legacy in Southern gospel...Autumn the only daughter left is expecting in Dec...a huge ..unimaginable nightmare😢
But very possible he wasn't sufficiently experienced in flying IFR in adverse weather conditions
He was an amateur. GA would know all about autopilots.
And Autumn doesn’t need to see any speculation about this.
No he was not experienced. Money plus ego always has the same result.
@@SC7driverflugl
Weather & Weight… a deadly combination in GA.
It was not over weight.
@@AlbertHess-xy7ky I didn’t state it was over weight. It was a HEAVY plane which flies differently and is slower to respond than a lighter plane especially in bad weather.
@@ChimeExpress Heavy planes fly better in heavy weather. That weather would not have bothered a 747.
@@AlbertHess-xy7ky 747? I’m not sure I follow. I’ll trust what you say. So what is your assessment of the cause of the crash? Just curious. Thanks!
@@ChimeExpress When it comes to heavy weather, be it boats or planes, bigger is better. The cause of this crash was an incompetent pilot. His focus was being MAGA, and the greater glory of God.
Somewhere I heard on another video that the Pilot owned this airplane. Didn't mention how long he had owned it or how many hours of experience he had flying it. Or what other planes he had experience flying. So sad!!
Has anyone seen the aircraft after the crash besides the NTSB
For some reason not many pictures of any at all have been released to the public.
@@jackwilliams7738 I've noticed that too...they were like family to us southern gospel fans.
My heart is still broken. Especially for Autumn. So young, so much responsibility. So much potential. God, please keep her, Jamie, baby boy, Todd, Rhonda,Jason 's parents, Nathan's family, and the families of the other 3 people who perished. Comfort them, surround them with your love. AMEN
Who should?
@@pamelabrumfield7679 Appropriated Black Gospel
I am about to show my lack of knowledge concerning this subject. I will inquire anyway. If they are in a graveyard spiral at 26,000 feet per minute. How would leveling the wings help? You have less than a minute to do this? It would certainly take the plane time to adjust. One minute is nothing. Also, the sudden decompressing of the aircraft could cause the lungs to collapse. Thus, leading to an unconscious state? Must hope this never happens to them. It doesn't mean it can't. Spatial disorientation is difficult to overcome. It doesn't only happen dealing with aircraft. It increases with age or other medical problems. I am only inquiring. I am not assuming anything. I sure to travel as a flight nurse. Total focus at that time was on the patient.
Mainly, what you are doing is not working. Do something else.
If it was that turbulent he should have used the artificial horizon to keep the plane in a normal attitude.
Alot harder then you think
You're back!! This was such a treat to see pop into my sub box out of the blue :D.
It's interesting to see this kind of video from you. At one point, I wanted to ask for your brief take on such incidents, but figured it was a dumb question because, from many accidents I've seen and read about, every one involving the PC-12 is due to very preventable pilot error. So I figured maybe we reached a point where crashes stopped being freak accidents we try to learn from, moreso just history repeating itself, making them maybe even more tragic for involved parties -- at least for the PC-12 and incredibly dependable aircraft like it.
That said, I'm still glad for you to have shared your perspective. And I'm looking forward to what the PC-12 boot camp might be!
The vast majority of aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. And, the specific types of errors haven't changed all that much over the decades. The accident statistics are stubborn. The only thing predictable about human behavior is that it's unpredictable.😁 Hope to see you at the bootcamp!
Had only 8 actual ifr in the last 4 years.😅
Would their bodies have been recouped? For burial?
Not much was left. It was gruesome for those cleaning it up.
What do you mean when you say he probably pulled the airplane apart?
That refers to pulling on the yoke (aft pressure), usually in a steep spiral, and causing an in-flight breakup.
Structural failure.
Sheer terror
Does anyone think that it's a good idea to have a second pilot if the one pilot is a senior citizen(older than 65 y/o)...as was the case in this crash? I'm one year younger than this pilot(67 y/o), and I know that my reaction time is not what it used to be. Just a thought. I truly wish that this group had flown commercial...since it was cross-country. May they all RIP.
If the autopilot abruptly disconnects, it may startle the less proficient pilot who may let his instincts takeover and overreact , instead of referring to the HSI which all aircraft have and to level the wings . I dont believe single GA pilots hand fly the aircraft enough to maintain their proficiency and rely too heavily on automation .
So, do you think they watched this entire flight and knew they were going down? 😔
No one will ever know.
I'm thinking they had to know.
Spatial disorientation