Passive vs. active with KEF, Hegel & Kii
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- Camera: Olaf von Voss | Editor: Jana Dagdagan
A high-end passive loudspeaker system vs. a high-end active loudspeaker system? We compare the previously reviewed Kii Three system to the KEF Reference 1 loudspeaker powered by a Hegel H390 integrated amplifier.
KEF Reference 1 (€7500/pair)) w/ stands (€1200):
us.kef.com/ref...
Hegel H390 (€5900):
www.hegel.com/...
AudioQuest Rocket 88:
www.audioquest...
Kii Three loudspeaker system w/ stands & Kii Remote (€15,000):
www.kiiaudio.com/
darko.audio/20...
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Also featured in this video...
Hegel H590 (€10,000):
www.hegel.com/...
darko.audio/20...
Hegel H190 (€3600):
www.hegel.com/...
darko.audio/20...
Bluesound Node 2 (~€500):
www.bluesound....
darko.audio/20...
ELAC Navis ARB-51 (€2000/pair):
www.elac.com/p...
darko.audio/20...
ELAC Uni-Fi UB5 Slim (€500/pair):
www.elac.com/p...
darko.audio/20...
KEF LS50 Wireless (€2300/pair):
us.kef.com/ls5...
darko.audio/20...
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Playlists…
Spotify:
open.spotify.c...
Tidal:
tidal.com/brow...
Qobuz:
play.qobuz.com...
#audiophile #highendaudio #loudspeakers
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Darko.Audio is a web magazine covering new and exciting developments in the audio world and we aren’t afraid of indie rock or techno.
Web: Darko.Audio
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Facebook: / darkodotaudio
Backstory: darko.audio/2019/10/a-short-film-about-the-hegel-h390-kef-reference-1/
Hi john would you recommend budget tannoy speakers?
love the fact that you trash 'musical' or 'musicality' in this review the other one ive noticed gets a lot of talk is 'speed' of an amp surely thats got more to do with timing clock and synergy between the source and the amp
In terms of judging soundstage, I hope you didn’t have the speakers in such different locations as on the video?
You never ever get wrong with KEF's .
So pure , so natural , clean , clear sound , that I can listen for long long hours without any fatigue .
So with a 400USD Elac Unify UB5. Amazing natural and balanced sound.
ATC actives sound simultaneously relaxing and resolving. They are the best actives I’ve ever heard.
try Steinway & Lyngdorf. DSP is a step up from ATC performance.
Great review John; very fair, very balanced and very real world. As an active yet also passive speaker owner, I would offer the following thoughts.
Anything I've ever researched and read as regards the electrical and acoustic engineering of a loudspeaker, from manufacturers that make both - i.e. the exact same speaker but in either a passive or active version - for example ATC - clearly states the technical advantages of active operation over passive as regards sound quality.
Speakers such as the Kii's are designed to deal with the speaker/room interface in a way that would be exceptionally difficult with a passive system.
I would respectfully argue that whilst a passive system suits audiophiles better, because they can mix and match to their hearts content, that active systems are much more likely to appeal to music lovers, rather than gear heads for whom the mixing and playing about with kit is the focus and the hobby, rather than actually listening to the music, other than as something of a sideline,, mainly to work out what the kit is doing with the music.
I think your review also clarified my own thinking as to why I made the jump to an fully active system a few years ago, after having owned a variety of passive so called 'high end' systems, which, whilst I enjoyed them, tended to take my focus away from the music and towards the kit with the attendant audiophile faffing about with it, tuning, tweaking, looking for the next audio 'fix' with different cables etc.
What audiophiles see as a disadvantage with a 'fixed' active solution where they can't mix and match easily, is to me, a classical musician, a very large advantage.
It relieves me of the tedium, as an amateur, and recovered audiophile, of having to shop at retail emporiums, dealing with other well meaning enthusiasts/amateurs and salespeople with an agenda to sell no matter what, trying to mix and match gear so as to hopefully provide a solution that is greater than the sum of the parts.
Unfortunately, as I do not have a PhD in acoustics, or audio engineering, and nor do I have access to thousands of dollars of test equipment, or acoustics and anechoic chambers, buying a passive system at a retail level is very much a turkey shoot, where you hope for the best possible result for your money, but with no real certainty.
With an active speaker system, you basically only have to listen, and as I did, compare the sound to that of real, natural acoustic instruments; is the reproduction authentic and real to me, the listener who plays those instruments and is intimately familiar with them, or not?
I know the whole system has been thoroughly designed and engineered by the true experts in the field of acoustics and audio engineering, leaving it simply down to me as a classical musician to decide if I like the result or not, with no further tweaking and worrying about possible kit permutations via different cables, stands, racks, and all the attendant audiophile buying angst required.
For me personally, having been through the whole audiophile approach to system building with passive separates systems over the years, active systems are not only better overall in my experience on a performance for money basis, but the buying and ownership experience and level of overall satisfaction in the longer term very much justifies the greater upfront cost, which is perhaps the only real disadvantage of active systems in my experience, making them on a value for money and outright performance grounds eminently suited to the buyer who is a true music lover, and less of an audiophile hobbyist with an interest mainly in the kit and the tweaking thereof.
Please note I have no wish to denigrate passive systems, or those who buy them, or the mix and match hobby; i"ve been there and done that, and found it a lot of fun, if at times frustrating and expensive.
But for me, active is the future, and I'd argue that for many following in the steps of their baby boomer predecessors, it's likely to be their choice as well, as it integrates Hi End audio, with a neatness and lack of clutter that will suit many of todays younger buyers on both aesthetic and space grounds into the performance bargain.
A wonderful comment that really advances the conversation in a thoughtful manner. Thank you. As someone who has been very vocal with the very points you've made over the past couple of years, I don't disagree with anything you've said. The SQ advantages of actives are legion and in this video case, the Kii pulls off stuff with the low end that would be a physical impossibility with the passive system. That said, the KEF/Hegel gives us what I think is a smoother top end that makes it easier to listen to for longer periods. Ergo: not all actives are better in ALL audible respects.
@@DarkoAudio Thank you for your kind words John. I agree with your thoughts in that not all actives are necessarily better in ALL audible respects than passive speakers - certainly that's been my experience with the passive and active speakers that I own.
How would you rate the ATC scm 40 actives in relation to how the amplifiers and active crossover has been integrated into the design compared to the design and sound of the passive version of the same speaker, the scm 40?
I feel like passives are like Samsung phones, more customizable and “open source” while actives are more like iPhones with less customization but have an easy to use interface and feel more polished. Active speakers tend to have components that work well with each other already and deliver a polished product without having to tinker too much but the lack of customization makes it less fun and less rewarding.
You’re right about us younger generations preferring something that’s more plug and play and more aesthetically pleasing with less wires. Just a different era. Today it’s about video quality > sound quality so most of us are happy with any upgrade over our phone speakers and don’t really know what we’re missing because we’ve never heard it whereas having quality audio was much more of a must have back then so having knowledge on mixing and matching audio gear to your liking was a must.
@@PlayshotKalo Somehow I would more tend to think that actives would be more "open". You - as the guy hearing music with it - could easily change the tonality with a few clicks. An armada of DSPs is inside an active system - and you could easily change the crossovers and shift the spectrum abit here and there. This is completely impossible in a passive speaker without ripping the crossover apart. If it is needed? I hope not if the designer did a good job.
I think in the future stuff like Dirac will be also included more in the "stereophile" world. Way easier with the more digital enabled DSP crossover boards of active speakers. Room correction will not do magic, but could help to get rid of hard to fight room issues. Now it is only inside a very few Stereo amps (NAD) - but many Subwoofer already do their own room corrections already.
Totally into active speakers now over passive ones, based on my own studio experiences. I now use Focal Monitors, and the quality is the best I have ever heard.
If you're starting from zero, yes! But note that DSP speakers are always a little cheating since they are corrected by FIR filters. A passive speaker getting linear frequency response, low bass extensions, low distortion AND having a smooth disperision without any active parts? Now that's impressive.
John, you’ve outdone yourself!
Thanks, Steve. That means a lot coming from you!
@@DarkoAudio John, would be great if you upload a video every Wednesday when Steve takes the day off. Good stuff guys!
I have just purchased a pair of Kef Ref 1s and can confirm that you are spot on with your comments and impressions of this speaker. Thank you John I am extremely happy with these speakers. Man they are heavy!
I own a pair of Kii Three and they are by far the best speaker I have ever had!!! Before them I had great speaker from B&W (801!), Avalon, Martin Logan, ME-Geithain, Manger, KEF. Nothing came even close to the Kii Three.
Anyway - I think I know what people mean when they say the Kii's are not the speaker that you want to relax to music. I had the same experience, but I found a simple fix for that. Simply angle them away(!) from the middle by ~15°. Instead of positioning them straight forward or even angle them towards you - do the opposite and let them face toward the outside, away from you! That takes all the harshness away and creates a sound stage of epic propositions, while still maintaining a pinpoint accuracy. If you listen to them in the dark, they don’t play music any longer the paint picture made from sound.
So you toe them OUT slightly? :-0
@@DarkoAudio Correct. You have to give it a try. This slight adjustment make quite a difference. Greeting from Baden.
@@DarkoAudio Would be great if you could try this tip and let us know your opinion of how it affects the sound. I've been seriously considering the Kii's so really appreciate this video.
Regarding the wooly/loose low bass response of the KEF/Hegal combined with your room's shape. GIK Acoustics SCOPUS TUNED MEMBRANE (T40) BASS TRAP targets bass frequencies from 30Hz - 60Hz. A few of these placed at key locations in the room would likely tame the resonant issues with your room's specific dimensions and long bass decay (maybe combined with a couple other broadband bass traps as well in corners or some soffit mounted bass traps). I would consider inviting a professional acoustician over to measure your room decay and response - this would be immensely helpful in determining what kind of traps to use and where to place them for greatest impact. ANY system, passive or active, would benefit from an "analog" acoustics upgrade - a passive system will sound tighter and an active system will apply less DSP correction (perhaps sounding less processed/digital?). Maybe a future video around room acoustics - before and after measurements along with subjective personal observations... ^_^
The best 'on the money' review I've seen of active versus passive loudspeakers. Congrats on an excellent vid. P
I know this is very much a high end channel which I definitely can't afford but I still enjoy watching & listening to what you have to say. I recently jumped onto the Active bandwagon but at about 1/10th of the cost you are suggesting with a pair of Edifier S3000Pro's. I know they'll not be in the same league as the kit you are showing us here but I don't believe they'll only be within 10% of your suggestions, maybe 60, 70 or even 80% which to my late 60's ears which have suffered years of abuse around construction sites & such can only decode so much anyway. If I could afford the Kef's I'd probably buy em, but would I gain much, I doubt it. Cheers & Keep up the great vids. 👍
Thanks, very interesting speakers. I noticed that it's got RCA and balanced input from DAC as well as Bluetooth. How do you listen to music?
Wise move. Unless you're really wanting to go for some insane setup, I've seen a lot of good reviews for those S3000's.
Your sound quality is first class never heard better at TH-cam. Congratulations
I can not listen to the Kii longer then half an hour, they make me "nervous". I discovered this effect with Class D Amplification in general. That`s why I had to sell my Gato DIA 250. My personal conclusion is and was, that you need to be good with class D amplification. I discoverd I am not, so most actives do not work for me. Besides that the Kii are amazing, but I am more happiy with my Hegel Amp and Koaxial Speakers. Great Video and thanks for the hint (O.Rang)!
Well... In studio monitors, where the usual are active loudspeakers, class A/B internal amplification is the norm and no longer just one speaker making all the filtering, DSP, eq and so forth, and the other one acting as a "slave", all aspects contrary to what has become the mainstream for "domestic" active speakers. They sound, in my opinion, great but they require true knowledge to adjust the parameters if you want a really good sound.
Most modern domestic active speakers (no matter the price point) have been designed with a lot of compromises to be "convenient" for the non specialiced customer.
Class D amplification, on the other hand, is still in its beginnings unless you're decided to spend a fortune. For this wealthy niche of public, there are a bunch of brands ready to sell really good class D stuff.
Benjamin. I love your choice of words and it communicates to me -"nervous" -Great!
That's exactly the type of sound I try to avoid. I prefer relaxing while listening to music instead of twitching.
@@adotopp1865 welcome. Thx
@@venturarodriguezvallejo9777 Yeah, i am still looking into electrcompaniet ec living to have a small system besides my main system , although they are not studio speaker's, but class a/b. Any other recommendations? I am curious.
That was great. I have not heard the new KEF Reference series yet, but I own the predecessor (KEF Reference 201/2) since 2009 -- hooked up to a smaller Accuphase amplifier. I have always loved the "majesty" -- to use your words -- of that pairing. Recently, when I visited Max Schlundt in the stilwerk and saw the Kii there, I thought to myself: Probably, if I was in the market today, that would be my choice. Now, after your video, I am not so sure anymore. That was super helpful and entertaining and great consumer advice -- all at the same time. Thanks, John!
I'm very late to this video, but this is really an excellent one, and no surprise as you are the king of audio reviewers. Just a really interesting idea as I've realized the same thing very recently, that a KEF LS50 Wireless 2 with a KC62 sub is a massively better value if you want to stream music than a passive/amp/streamer system. But interesting to try out the mid/high end as well with the reference KEF's which I can only dream about and see if this still holds. But I also have to thank you for introducing me to Orang. I'm a huge fan but I was totally unaware that Talk Talk had a side-project. It is stunningly good so have to thank you for this.
I'll likely never buy either system, but I love the channel and videos. The best audiophile channel period. Thanks!
Honestly no one does reviews like this chan. Kudos
You real have a knack for this John -- a real world comparison with real world easily understandable language. Oh I'm sure it's a lot of hard work it seems like you "job" is really your "hobby/passion". I'm kind of envious myself.
Hegel H190 is my choice! Marvelous sound for 150 watts: exactly what i need.
I don't get it, why in the comment section every body boast about there personal gears, "I have this", "I have that", "I'm happy wih this", "this is better that that", why nobody is analysing and questioning the informations they get from the video?
Cos that's what's important to most "audiophiles". Not music, but arguing about equipment which, for the most part, they don't actually understand, rather than actually enjoying music. Dick waving contests over what costs the most, and heavily biased cork-sniffing descriptions of their emotional state as "analysis" of sound.
@ actually if you had read the comments instead of just knee-jerk, cut-and-paste trolling. the commenters that are comparing gear are comparing much cheaper gear.
Why wouldn’t people share this information. You are looking at a video comparing monstrously expensive gear in a niche hobby, anyone looking at this will be equally passionate about the hobby, and people like to share their own gear and personal experiences with the hobby they enjoy, engagement with the video’s topic outside of active vs passive speakers is difficult given the 15K price tag of each set of gear. Therefore most people will defer to to cheaper comparisons, which many feel is interesting.
The comments saying what they have help us pick with future choices. They’re far more useful than this comment
There is actually an expectation, when discussing audio performance, that the poster share what they have as a personal reference. It helps readers know not only what is being compared, but what options exist.
I understand it could seem tedious to some, but I appreciate it.
Bravo JD ! An exceptional concept and coverage in this video on active vs. passive - - audiophiles have an interesting decision to make on "the best bang for the buck" sound with the compelling options now available.
Great video, great playlist and balanced views as always. Hands down my favorite high-end audio channel. By far.
John, thank you for an interesting and informative review. I take from your comparison, that you find the KEF/Hegel combination more relaxing to listen to than the compared active speakers. I listen to music to relax mainly, but it can also be stimulating. Even so, I would not be able to listen for long, to a system which, as you say, has the listener sitting on the seat edge. Since you also seem to prefer the sound from the KEF/Hegel system it seems to me that this is a clear winner for you, and I am convinced, for me. The other clear advantage of the component system is the opportunity to try, in the future, alternative amplifiers with the speakers and vice versa. Each system can have advantages for people with different tastes in sound reproduction, and living space. However it is, to me, the music reproduction quality and its effect on the human spirit which ultimately is the better choice.
Great video. Both concepts definitely have their merits. I have one of each in my home and enjoy them both very much. Although the active system is of a higher level and gives me a representation that is absolutely jaw dropping. DEQX HDP5, Hypex amps and DIY speakers that are a cross between an Eidolon (shape) and Isis (units). That all combined with a 21" open baffle sub woofer with it's own Hypex amp and DSP. I have become addicted to the manageability (what a word) of the active system and the way it plays flawlessly with great impact and finesse.
'Special Request'..likey likey . The guy is a genius. Can't wait for his new record. Going active is a big commitment I think. You really need to love the sound of a specific speaker to go down that route. Space saving I can understand but for me it takes the fun out of being an audiophile.
The KEF is not a real competitor to the Kii Three-- and NOT just because it is passive. Actually, that is many respects is the least of the difference. The Kii Three, much like the Dutch and Dutch 8C is designed to allow you to make the room substantially "disappear" ,which is why you can place it almost anywhere and make it work. Not at all so with any of the KEF's, and actually, the KEF's are highly room placement, size and relative positioning dependent.
Very cool review, thanks for the great thoughs and the interesting comparison. I do prefer passive setups, because it gives me the biggest flexibility to exchange individual components and to mix and match. I think, this is also the interesting part of my hobby: Listening to music on one side and playing around with technology and HiFi components on the other side. Aren't we all kids?
Sit back and listen, always a good plan. No listening fatigue is key. And will keep me more happy in the long run. I own von Schweikert Unifield One speakers and are of the same kind like the KEF, also coaxial design.
Really dig the simplification and mood of your videos. Thanks
Passive for me, i like building a system to my liking and not to what others think it should sound like.
every amp & speaker sound like something, depending on who made them.
Yep it’s just having multiple people have components they think sounds nice as everyone who designs components has a different idea of that :)
Gerne geschehen war wieder Mal eine Freude einen neuen Abschnitt hier im dunklen Schweden zu schauen. Versüßt einem die Dunkelheit.
I've never met an active speaker that wasn't all up in your face about it. I actually use a pair of KEF Reference 1's nearfield to edit video on, and I'm happy as a clam. Wouldn't go back to actives...they're all too hard. With the Ref 1's in a treated and corrected room I can hear everything and mix all day without getting burned out. With active anything (and I've owned a bunch and tried even more) there are only so many hours I can have them coming at my skull before they put me in that "wired but tired" zone...and that's an awful place to be.
Super interesting comments at 12.30, I've always been lead to believe the actives will always sound better than passives mainly because of the crossovers. I auditioned a pair of active ATC40's recently, I put in a few hours listening to my favourite tracks. I own a pair of passives (same model) with a Michi P5/S5 combo running them. Long story short my passives sounded a fair bit superior to the actives and I always thought it was just biased thinking because I love my equipment. Then I heard you say similar and I know you are right.
Been following these videos and just noticed I never subscribed so I did.
very nice work John, thank you for your great videos, your comments are spot on
A great and informative review as usual, so good I've watched it three times. I would be the kind of person who wants to sit back and enjoy the music, so I would prefer the Hegel/ KEF system. I think the Kii setup would give me fatigue after a while. Saying that I fully get the Active system rout for many who just want a no fuss set up and can't be bothered with searching for their ideal sound by visiting many hifi stores. I on the other hand enjoy that search, even though it can be daunting at times. What I love about your reviews is it's like your speaking to me directly and on a more personal level. Keep up the excellent work.
If I would be willing to build a listening room I'd also be willing to bring in a 15K euro sound system. I's nice to see how the other half lives. Keep uptake good work John.
I enjoy your podcasts and always look forward to new reviews.
I'm liking this guy - his room is clean and neat (Steve G. take note!), he keeps things factual, concise and offers a balanced viewpoint. Good presentation and camera work too.
I have heard some great passive systems... but no matter how glorious an amp/speaker set-up one can design, or afford, plonking a network of resistors, capacitors and inductors (a traditional, passive crossover) between them does not bode well for either component, particularly the amplifier.
Unfortunately, almost all active system reviews are based on speakers with built-in amps (which I will term 'inboard') - pretty much the worst place to put an amplifier, due to microphony, space and heat (and all too often Class D amplifier design). A lot of cheap, active monitors employ an inferior, analogue crossover after the dac, so only one, two-channel (stereo) dac is required. The really budget 'active' monitors aren't even active, they have one stereo amp in one (master) speaker with passive crossovers, and a second 'slave' speaker with no electronics at all - the reason they are termed active is that they are self-powered i.e. the user doesn't need to buy an amplifier. A 'proper', digital, three-way, active system requires a six-channel digital xover, then a six channel dac (or three stereo dacs) and six channels of amplification.
Everything being equal, which is rarely the case, an active system, in my experience, will sound more dynamic, 'faster', cleaner, have tighter bass (the dedicated bass amp is connected directly to the bass driver, with improved current flow and better electrical damping) with improved low-level resolution across the entire audio spectrum. If one has become used to a less insightful, ‘laid-back’ sound, this can initially seem rather an 'forthright' presentation. Once you have enjoyed a high-end active system, however, there is rarely any going back! There are simply too many compromises with even the best passive set-up.
There are few audiophile 'outboard' active systems (more prevalent in the pro-audio industry), but the Sanders' Sound hybrid electrostatic/ transmission line with Sanders’ Magtech amps is a noteworthy example. PMC offer a good deal of their transmission line speakers in passive or outboard active, employing Bryston amplification which is highly regarded. Remember the active Linn Isobariks? I'm showing my age! They performed head and shoulders above the already good passive 'bariks - and that was with analogue active crossovers, but a Naim 'six-pack' of power amplifiers.
For those that like the component selection activity of audiophilia, an 'outboard', active system still allows this - you can even employ a beefy, transistor amp for the bass, and a valve amp for the midrange. You'll need a dsp (look on any pro-audio retailer for digital signal processor / speaker management / digital crossover - many have eight channels, so up to four-way) and you'll have to bypass the inefficient, blue pill, passive crossovers in any speaker - but wow!
Take the red pill my audio friends :)
Another insightful review - thanks to John & his team.
I cant imagine the audio world without your amazing interpretations. What a way you have of finding the truth without the need to trash on anyone's creations which isn't unique but you do it unusually well. Also this morning I saw the budget audio discussion video with master Gutenberg (another opinion my audio "life" requires) on the panel and thought I'd better force myself through such an important and for me relevant discussion = no need to force anything - Despite being in the raw with understandably no budget for pre and post treatments = I was entertained and informed both with the rich variety of experience and such a broud landscape of perspectives (as unfocused as many of the opinions were in regards to the intended direction of that wonderful discussion - most of them had merit) which could have been *utter rubbixh* (I'm a childish American sorry) with anyone else also brave enough to man that mic through that potential storm = you did a great job that I've come to expect from you, thank you and you seem to be rising to the top of this emerging new and higher than expected dry ground the swirling sea of new technogy, ideas, and ultimately trends are settling down to finaly reveal - keep going sir!
PS - I was going to tone down the flourish after readng my content but I thought why? It's honest and it's in the home of audiophiles = they're thoroughly familiar with heavy colored commontary. Peace.
Good job, John Darko! Now, please, could you do the same thing at the $1,000 price point? 😎
Adam audio T8V, DAC SMSL SU-8 = $930 Attached to a computer or other digital source. I get a superb sound stage with almost touchable instruments.
Ive had musical fidelity 308 amp and quad electrostatic speakers in the past, and in my opinion, can always beat ANY speaker with a cone at any price. Therefore to buy an expensive speaker with cones is a fools game. I find the ribbon tweeter of the T8Vs quite refined and easy to listen to. The dac is also a wonderful thing.Very close to my Audiolab M Dac in quality.
I have a Primaluna Classic amplifier with Monitor Audio RX8, love the sound of that combination, but if starting today I'll go for a active setup for the simplicity of that.
Good one Mr. Darko
If I have to choose, I think that I would go by passive system
Of course .
As always a very well done analysis but there is one "elephant in the room" in my view when it comes to active vs passive, it's service / repair. When I bought my KEF active speakers a few years ago, as an engineer, I was thrilled that I knew there was an amplifier in each unit that was perfectly matched to the speakers; after all the manufacturer knew what would work best with its speaker units and even possibly include some feedback mechanisms into the circuitry. That was all great until my left speaker volume started to go down slowly and after a year and, of course after the warranty expired, went completely dead. KEF service provided no help at all even when I simply asked for any location in North America to have it fixed for a fee. Nothing not even a hint of an option, and now I have two speakers and two built-in amps that have to end up in the dumpster because one can't be "fixed". In a passive system, one could hope that at least the speakers could be salvageable even if the amp had to be scrapped (though my neighbor has a Quad Amp from the 1970's that still works fine). I think I've learned my lesson about speaker manufacturers that are not really electronic amplifier vendors and do not understand that power systems do fail and may need servicing. Until I see active speakers with modular (i.e. easily removable and fixable amplifiers) designs as well as options to eventually use them as passive units, I'll steer away from spending thousands of dollars on units with dubious life expectancy.
I intend to stay traditional, but hearing outright near worship of B&W's active speakers. People are blown away
You can only get equal or beat the Kii(s with a passive speaker if you build one with the same or better controlled directivity . I highly suspect that both the Dutch & Ducth 8c and the Kii's are not fully 'constant directivity' over the whole frequency range (the tweeters being the suspect), so there's room for improvement yet ,but not a lot . You would have to build or buy a passive speaker with either a full range omni dispersion or a very intelligently designed dipole with a dipole tweeter . Still , you would lose a bit , cause the passive components in the X-over are stores of energy which negatively impact transient behaviour
Excellent review John. Now if I win the lottery I might sell my old Kef and buy this reference 1 and the Hegel.
Always enjoy your thoughtful takes and especially the music recommendations. Mojave 3 is new to me and spectacular. With great appreciation from San Diego.
One thing to consider with an active system in my opinion is reliability. I have a pair of active Focal Solo 6 and have had repeated issues with them. I've had to send them in for repair once, and it wasn't easy trying to find someone to repair them. I ended up having to send them clear across the country and was without music for six weeks. Now one of them has developed a scratchy noise you can easily hear when no music is playing. I've read that lack of ventilation and higher operating temps may contribute to these types of reliability issues. This will more than likely be my last set of actives where the amp is inside the loudspeaker.....I would consider an active design that has all the electronics outside the speaker.
Instead of ls50w i got myself a kef r300, emotiva power amp A300 (really cheap with enough power) and a bluesound node2i. The cost is almost the same considering the r300 are on huge sale now. I am actually really pleased with the sound they put out. For my room I guess the sound would be the same, probably more detail with R300 than with LS50W since it's 3 way rather than 2 way. Since you mentioned other power amps you should try some of the emotiva's mono power amps which are not that expensive compared with hegel. I will do a listening session on Reference 1 with Hegel vs Emotiva vs Naim just to see how they compare in sound, since in price Hegel is the most expensive.
Something tells me the emotiva amp is going to last a lot longer than any plate amp stuck to the back of an active speaker. Emotiva is lightyears ahead on the value for the $ while retaining quality. I have their DC-1 for my computer to some cheap active speakers, but when I upgrade, it'll be a multi channel pre-amp such as an outlaw audio or emotiva to an emotiva dedicated amp type of setup. All XLR's too! none of this 2v rca crap.
Would you consider doing.a video that highlights the importance of the listener discovering and defining their own preferences in the way the equipment "presents" audio? It seems obvious on its face but many people new to this hobby don't realize how critical it is. People new to this hobby are highly likely to assume their "inborn ear" is much more tolerant of the differing presentations than it actually is
Some will agree, some won’t. The song verse says it best, you can’t please everyone so you got to please yourself! It’s as simple as that. I’m not in this race anymore. Let the big dogs run. Enjoy it John. Everyone must find what makes them happy.👍🏻😊
My guy! Was gonna ask about the music itself! Glad I stuck until the end.
sehr gut Vergleichen und erklären. Good see we both struggle with the German! Really enjoy this vid.
Fantastic video and presentation. Engaging and very very professional. I’ve listened to the kef ls50 wireless at shows a lot. They are amazing, and I agree that you’d have to probably spend £10-£15k to really notice a difference. That said I’m a vinyl boy with VPI prime , moon amp and sexy sonas Fabre olympica iii
bitte sehr. Another enlightening one, thanks John and Olaf!
I personally have the Denon PMA-1600NE with excellent internal DAC which I use with an Innuos Zen and audioquest USB . This amp was awarded HIFI test winner for best sounding amp. I have paired this system with a Denon SACD player. The speakers I use are DIY using SEAS drivers. A video can be seen on my page.
Smashed it once again Mr D. Diolch yn fawr.
Thanks, that's a nice comparison. As Steve Guttenberg noted. If you have active speakers you are stuck with that dsp/dac/amp. With passives, you can play around more. If one buys used, the financial losses shouldn't be great.
Yes but the trade-off on that inflexibility is better sound. All other things being equal, an active speaker will sound better than the same drivers in the same box with passive xover and outboard amplification. Digital actives also give us placement compensation and, in some, room agnosticism/correction. What's important for you might not be as important for someone else.
Hey John, I noticed the white Genelec in the back... Did you ever review those? They also use room correcting software. It would be interesting to see how they compare against the Kii or other high end active and passive speaker systems.
Great video John. Love your attitude toward HiFi.
Hey John,
Interesting comparison, unfortunately I'm not in the market for a 15K system. On the other hand I can afford to pick up new music on a weekly basis...so thanks again for the recommendations. If I was I'm not sure I'm ready for an active setup yet unless it offered incredible sound and VFM. I still like the old school integrated ''hub'' with headphone jack, remote and a plethora of inputs/outputs. Until I move into a seniors residence space is not that much of an issue.
I loved the sound and dynamics of Kii but little less power since my Room is large and prefer a DIY monoblock Hypex based 4 channel amp and miniDSP with DIY 3 way in bookshelf size like Kii3 I have MTM and backside dual 6.5 subs superb sound bass till 35
Hi. I like the Kii speakers, a step up from Devialet Phantom Gold which is my main setup right now. Will have to save some money. Thanks for the review. By the way, I think you would like Enei, Kasra - Transmitter EP and perhapes also Francesco Bove - The Future :-)
I did KEF LS50W + Bluesound Node 2 and focal Sub Air. The sound is very clear and mid range coupled (with help of Sub).
I have set it up a Meter from the wall, and sound stage is so up scale.
Really enjoying your videos John... Even thought I'm not in the market for a new system at the moment. I stopped my upgrade path two years ago with a SuperUniti and Kudos X2 floorstands. But once in a while I am tempted by all the nice new 'toys'. Cheers.
Hi John The Kef Ref 1's sound excellent with the Hegel but I would use Nordost Cables with that set-up as it is an excellent combo. The Kef's work well with Nordost Cables as I use them on my Kef Ref 203's.
Vielen Dank fürs Zuschauen.
Really good analogue with the reclining vs. edge of the seat!
I have no need for the Reference speakers but god damn, I love the way that colour scheme looks. If only they'd bring it to R Series.
Dynaudio focus 20xd and/or XEO 20/30 for the active speakers. Dynaudio special forty with a Hegel RÖST, supra cabels.
Thank you John for all your information on this site as it has been tremendously helpful to me in the past. I am a recent purchaser of the Kef R1 and Hegel H390 combination. As my listening space is not large I am interested to know whether the short distance weakness from wall to speaker you mentioned about the R1's could be mitigated through the use of acoustic paneling placed behind the speakers? Do you think this would narrow the performance gap between the Kiis and the R1? Thanks again.
Great topic / video once again. I say this with love: it would have been interesting if you made up the passive system with individual components i.e. amp, DAC, streamer, speakers rather than all in one Hegel. Appreciate you can break the amp down further into pre and mono power but then 15k can only take you so far. Cheers,
Flexibility is the key reason why many prefer a passive system. And it is precisely because of this that the passive system wipes the floor with the active one. Especially at this price point (and beyond) where there are abundant choices. And while pursuing the ultimate musical goal, going passive allows the flexibility to "tune" the system to one's preferential aural liking. The active system is only ever so "relevant" where room conditions and convenience outweigh the choice of going passive. Little does one wonder why almost all major hi-end manufacturers continue to pump out new passive systems despite the fact that the active counterparts are increasingly gaining foothold, traction and recognition. I guess we do, afterall, love choices and do not wish to be confined simply to an AIO system, if conditions and budget allow.
I don’t fully support your point re. DAC/streamer built in with the amp unless it’s for cost and space saving. Digital is relatively young and will continue undergoing more rapid improvement than amplification ie only recently were we able to listen to 24bit quality along with new competing formats like MQA etc. Therefore flexibility to upgrade the digital component without it being built into an amp or speakers will remain an important feature for some and possibly more cost effective in the long run. I too have lived with fully integrated high end speaker systems and agree with your conclusion and so have a passive high end system with the flexibility to improve any aspect. It sounds incredible, where I’ve never listened to so much music of such wide variety with the peace of mind I don’t need to sell the whole thing as and when I want to make an improvement.
The PS Audio Strata is a streaming integrated that would fit your criteria $3000.
Such a breath of fresh air.
I know I’d like to have a listen to that Hegel 390 and if it’s got to be a stand mount , the Focal Sopra 1, but I’d personally like the floor standing Sopra. 2 . The latter combination coming in at pretty much £15k
The Kefs sound considerably better with speaker cables with silver in them. I currently use the AudioQuest William Tell Silver. You can hear an noticeable difference when you upgrade to the AudioQuest FireBirds or Dragons.
This is just a great video presented in a very well manner. subscribed great content!
Another excellent video; very interesting.
Primarily due to Darko.Audio, I purchased KEF LS50W a few months ago and, aside from the horrid KEF apps, really like them.
I am now intrigued by your thoughts on the Reference 1's high frequency output as it seems to be exceptionally good. If I do return to passive speakers, I think Hegel is pretty much a must.
Audiophile hobby will die if the future is all-in-one systems. Really hope that will not happen. Im sure it will grow and get bigger market share, but lots of joy in this hobby is experimenting with different equipment, and how you do that with all-in-one speaker system? How to tweak the sound?
Great review btw.
Fantastic episode! Thanks!
Hallo Tarun
I recently bought a Hegel h190
for my r7 with rel sub … I found the top end is not coming live , very rolled off . I am happy with mids and especially low end . What could be my possible best solution to get the hifi bliss I am looking for . I don’t listen my music too loud too.. please help
I feel like a lot of the problems with the KEF Reference could be solved if you were to DSP-correct them like the Kii, especially the problems with the bass.
My set-up is currently a HifiBerry feeding in to a miniDSP HD, which goes in to a set of KEF LS50 passives powered by 2 Emotiva PA-1 and a set of Rythmik L12 subs for the low end. All room corrected using Dirac Live plus you have the benefit of being able to move those subs to the ideal location before the room correction so it all just sounds perfect. Sure this is quite a bit more expensive than the LS50w, but I'd bet this sounds way better and closer to those 15,000 systems for only a third of the cost.
Good point on the term “musical “ noting a preferred preference. I am guilty of using it.
“ Analog “ would be another.
hi john i have a mix room and i changed to kii´s at 2 years ago, ... i completely agree with you, kii´s is an amazing working speaker it translates very well what you are doing you can work very quickly in them, then you change to a lot of diferente speakers and they all accept well very well kii´s mixes. another pair i like but active analogue cross, is PSI25 and 23, i tested also... i would like to test kii´s against ducth&dutch 8C because the tec i think is similar.... thanks cheers Miguel.
Wow John! Great video. :)
How about reviewing some ATC active versus passive speakers which of course you can do without leaving their catalog. New subscriber, enjoy your channel immensely.
Did you ever bring your Genelec’s to the mix? Perhaps not as sophisticated as the Kii, but they also offer a high level of technology with room correction software.
If the Kii had a larger bass driver like the KEF you would have loved it over the KEF. All it's lacking is the bass punch due purely to size. At the end of the day the KEF is dinosaur tech compared to the Kii. The Kiis are the future of speakers. They eliminate the need for expensive room correction if nothing else. But then I also think audiophile amps are almost as much snake oil as expensive cables. You can build an amp with near perfect measurements for $300 and everything else is brand sound -- intentionally introduced distortions to get you a desired effect and you pay through the nose for it.
For me with limited funds, one big advantage of using separate amp and speaker system is that they are separate, I bought the Kef x300a USB powered speakers and about 3 months outside its tiny warranty it developed a high pitch hiss when it was in standby mode, Kef wouldn't fix or replace it under warranty! so I have two for my budget rather expensive bricks.
This was great! This is why I love your channel. This was very informative and honestly reassuring to know the passives are still in the game. I wondered what your thoughts would be on the original LS50 and a Hegel H90? You talk highly of the equipment you have, but both are pretty up there in price. The LS50 passives are going for really decent prices now and I wondered if they'd work as a slightly downgraded version of this set up with the H90...
Yes, I second that:
I wondered what your thoughts would be on the original LS50 and a Hegel H90?
Great price right now at $899 a pair. Was curious about pairing them with the new Cambridge CXA-81 seeing how it's a class A-B for $700 less than the H90. Seems like a thoroughly capable amp with loads of connections.
One of a kind comparison, keep it kicking!
Hi John, really enjoy your very informative video. Have both LS50 and R300. Hope to one day have Reference 1... have heard them and my ears/heart have been won over. My question is this... are the Hegel H20/H30 separate amps designed on the newer SoundEngine2 technology? Their website is not specific in this area. Thanks and look forward to more valuable videos!
If I may, Mr. Darko, this is why I take mild issue with your limited scope of "test music." Not that your choices aren't valid. But some people do listen to symphonic music, and unlike your test music, symphonic music is predominantly upper bass/lower midrange. Much of its power comes from massed cellos, violas, French horns and so on. In my experience, where speakers like the KEFs (and I own a pair of LS50s) fall down is in their inability to deliver the sense of power that this orchestral music demands, even at well less than "concert" levels. So, I was thinking, in this comparison, the Kii (with its multiple drivers) might have scored a few more points if you had played one of the 19th Century orchestral warhorses through them. Although, if I had to guess, I'd guess if I were in the room with you listening to these two combinations, I would have the same preference as you expressed as to where I would spend my 15K Euros.
You've made a point that I was also thinking about, Sir. John, I like some of the music that you include in your reviews, but the reality is that MANY people listen to good 'ole rock & roll which, in a different way, is also a great test bed when reviewing / considering different audio components. Just a thought that you may want to more be in consideration of?
And as for your "aluminium"......I'll raise you two roundabouts and a router.....lol
Keep up the exemplary content; You are much appreciated!! Sparks in Daytona Beach
@@stevenp.sparks2953 Perhaps if the reviewer ate more "erbs" he would sound more American. ;)
I think he had mentioned in some of his videos, I can’t remembered which one, that he does not listened to ‘standard’ audiophile kinds of music like classical to Diana Krall. IMHO, we should respect that if we were to follow his channel just like we respect each other choices of music. Peace ✌️
The Kii 3s are fantastic in symphonic music, oratorio, operas etc.
I have seen Kef use Parasound amps (JC1 mono blocks) in North America to demo their high end speakers (Reference and Blades).
Kef like to use Arcam as well its a very good combo.
I am interested in a set of what I would call High end Loudspeakers. I have the LS50 at the moment being driven by a Roksan M2 amp, M2 CD player with a Cambridge streamer (CXN). Do you think that the loudspeakers such as Kef Ref would make the best upgrade? I don't like huge bass, in fact I prefer the LS50's with their foam plugs in. The Roksan M2 is only 70 odd watts but is very high current and doesn't have problems delivering bass. Maybe it's less insightful in the treble but it is quite a smooth amp and suits the LS50. I am interested in active systems generally but I'm not convinced totally that it is the best option. Really like your interesting channel.
A speaker upgrade is always the best thing you could spend your money. After that, room treatment. Check out the Kef R7 or the ATC SCM19/40.
I wonder how the Kefs would compare with a Linn Akudorik Aktiv + streamer system? I’ve found other Kef speakers too laid back - even sloppy - for my taste. The Linns, especially with room optimisation had remarkable insight.
how confident can i be that powered speakers will last as long as passives
Hi, I found your channel two days before and I think it's a shame, explored this channel so late. Your Videos are great and have a special nice athomsphere and it's a lot of fun, to catch all that informations in the way you are talking about. :) ..But one note...The black glasses looks much better in your face ;) lol..Kindly Regards from Germany
Spot on Darko about the your discription of the KII ... i had it in the room against Audio Vector SR 3 avant-garde en B&W 804 d 3.KIi was a great powerfull exciting speaker for active listening....as a listerner you will be blow away and impressed played at high volumes. My money went to the B&W because it also brought engagement and appreciated listening at lower volumes on a sunday morning besides they impress at higher volumes.. Audio Vector was also great but Just not my taste.
Hi frans , what amplifier did you use with the B&W 804d3 , cheers.
@@Bzz22 Accuphase 460
@@Bzz22 Hi, John just see youre question again. I traded the accuphase in and are using Bryston amp. That made a life changing difference. The B&W needed more power. Started with a b4 which was doing the job very very well. Because i was so satisfied i upgraded to 14b sst. Was not needed but brought more realism. Finally i have setteled with my system after 60 years