RoC Return of Capital Explained: Do You Get Your Own Money back in Dividends? Not Necessarily!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
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Return of capital occurs when an investor receives a portion of their original investment that is not considered income.
Many of the funds I own and preach about on this channel, like Income Funds, Split Share Funds, Covered Call ETFs and even REITs can classify a portion of their dividend they give out as ROC. (it can be a small portion or a big portion, it varies from fund to fund)
I'm getting more and more questions about this because many of you are afraid and have very negative thoughts about ROC income. People think that it’s simply your own money being returned to you (like some sort of Ponzi scheme) and that these dividends are eroding the funds NAV, or simply the overall value of the fund
Some people even think that funds that give out a high % of ROC income year after year will basically drive the price of the Stock to zero!
First of all, it's important to understand that ROC is 1 of the 4 tax classifications that investment income can fall under. There is Interest Income , Dividends, Capital Gains and finally ROC Income.
Out of the 4 ROC income is taxed the least at 0$
Makes sense right because like the definition says, it’s a portion of capital being returned to you. Which is another way of saying that it’s a portion of your original investment returned to you. So of course it’s not taxed… it’s not considered Income on paper.
So what does ROC income actually do? Well it lowers your ACB. So if ever you want to sell the stock or fund in the future, you need to ensure you factor that in.
Here is an easy example:
Let’s say you Invested in Stock ABC at 10$ Let’s say that it has an Annual Dividend of 1.20$/share or 10 cents a month.
Let’s also assume that all the dividends are classified as 100% ROC.
After a year you get 1.20$/share in Dividends right?
Let’s say you want to sell this Fund now, after collecting 1 year of dividends and that the Stock price of the fund is still 10$. You might think well i broke even, so no capital gains taxes to pay right?
Wrong...
Because your ACB is not 10$ anymore, it’s 10$-1.20$ so it’s 8.80$. Which means if you sell it, you need to pay Capital Gains because it’s as if you bought the stock for 8.80$ now and not 10$. As simple as that.
Another thing I want to point out is that many Funds give out ROC income. Not only Closed end funds (which i usually refer to as Income funds) but also Covered Call Dividend ETFs which make their money with 1) Dividend Income and 2) Covered Call Option Premiums. But REITs can also give out ROC. I bet you didn't know that.
So you might be asking where do I get this information? Well 2 ways really. You can see the breakdown on your T3 Slip your broker gives you every year specifically. BOX 42.
Do you really think that just because a stock gives out a very high % of its income as ROC it will eventually go to 0? Of course not.
Let’s look at the stock chart of the last 5 years of the examples I showed you earlier like True North Commercial REIT, the Canoe EIT Income fund and ZWC.
Although the distributions from these funds are mostly ROC, the stock price of the funds seem to be doing just fine and following what the overall stock market is doing or what the stocks inside the ETF are doing. It doesn't look like the stock price is just deteriorating and going down and down to 0. It's clearly not the case.
Here is the main takeaway as i see it : As long as the fund can keep generating income, you're fine. That's the bottom line.
And since Dividend income, Covered Call option income, Rental income is pretty much infinite, we have nothing to worry about.
#ReturnOfCapital #investment #passiveincome #invest#tsx #canada #CanadianStocks #investingtips
Disclaimer:
Not a licensed investment advisor, videos are educational.
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already watched this several times...the more i watch, the more im convinced...thank u adrian...im a small time investor who started late, planning for my retirement
What is important is that a fund needs to have growth with your income to get a true sense of ROR. ROC is ok if the stocks in the portfolio can grow over time. Thats why I like Dividend Growth Stocks. I have owned BMO Stock for a number of years. Yes not much growth lately but the last 12 years I am earnning 10% return on my original Capital. All in All you explain very well keep up the good work. You still have a very good strategy
Thank you for your sharing! Im thankful u made a video talking abt RoC which resolved my doubt 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
But in other words, should we avoid high RoC fund (though it did save our tax)? Because it may imply the fund in long term could not generate stable income?
Kap , like I said near the end of the video , it’s best to look at all factors before investing. But high roc is not necessarily bad right , that was the point of my video , like I said it depends on the fund is managed and how it makes it’s income , that’s the most important thing
Got it! Thanks a lot 🥰
You didn't explain it through to the end. What happens in 15 yrs if you want to sell
Super video. Thanks for explaining, very much appreciated.
Hey Adrian, I have been watching your videos for past 5-6 months, you got some great value content here. When would you be able to share your portfolio in details ? Couple of weeks ago, you said you had to sell some of your shares and readjust, I would love to know what you did. Thank you and great content again. Big fan.
Thanks man . New portfolio unveiling will be the first video of feb . After the picks of the month ! Stay tuned
Would be great if you can update your Ultimate Package spreadsheet with which fund or REIT is doing ROC and what percentage. Really important for those of us who ran out of TFSA room and need tax efficient strategies for a regular cash account.
Never mind I just watched the video to the end and you answered the question🤪
Another great one thank you Adrian
Thanks for your explanation.
Another example regarding ROC payments. Consider two stocks for comparison, in the first you hold 1 share of a stock at $10 that pays a 10% yield in the form of a qualified dividend and in the second you hold 1 share of a stock at $10 that pays a 10% yield in the form of a ROC. In the first stock, you pay a 15% federal tax on the $1 of qualified dividends for that year. In the second stock, you pay no federal tax on the $1 ROC payment for that same year. Now you sell both stocks at the same price that you bought them for. In the first stock, you pay no capital gains tax since none was earned. In the second stock, you pay a 15% capital gains tax on the $1 you earned in capital gains since the value of the stock dropped by $1 over that year. In both stocks, you paid exactly the same amount of federal tax on your earnings of $1, in the first stock you paid the tax at the time you earned the qualified dividend, and in the second stock you paid the same amount of tax but just at the time you sold the stock. No difference.
which is better to buy? when Nav is low or when Nav id high?
Thanks. I have a REIT ETF that pays a small portion of ROC along with dividends every quarter. I have been very curious about it.
Seems like ROC makes more sense in a taxable account versus a TFSA/,RRSP. Is that about right?
When you finally sell, can't you use the average price listed in your account statement as the ACB since TD says their average price is calculated including RoC? That way, you don't have the hassle of keeping track yourself.
Great in depth video as always. I love how you go the source (fund mngr). So here's the real question for going fwd: what is the best way to determine if a fund is doing alot of scenario 2 (bad eroding of NAV by not making call income), or better yet how to track the difference between the 3 scenarios for a given fund? One way could be to look at the NAV history I suppose? What are your thoughts? Thanks!
Good question , you gotta go Sherlock Holmes on it . Nav history is a good start , dividend history , stock price history . And dividend policy ( how is the fund actually making the income ) . What also helps is analyzing the breakdown of the income each fund gives . I go into detail on that in my latest video on taxes
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting Another video suggestion I will have to go and watch. Thanks Adrian.
Neis covered call etfs say its a tax strategy not return of principle but lower cost basis if u sell later
I just explained this to a client of mine. They owned PIC.A:to and had an average price of $5.20/unit. They had now sold their position this March at $5.80. They had collected an ROC over the years that adds up to $7.80. So their cap. gain is going to be $8.40 per unit on their 2021 tax return filing.
This is a huge tax bill no?
@@surajrambhia1742 no it's pretty low. Roughly 25%.
But the tax is on your entire principle at once
Maybe it is advantageous... still thinking
That’s entirely up to you . You don’t have to sell …. Or we all of it . When you don’t have salary income , your tax rate is much lower . You’re just making invalid excuses in my opinion .
I was confused a little. Then I did a ton of research and I think I get it. Here is some of the interesting information I obtained. I hope it’s all correct
1 The yield ( distribution, dividend) of a fund is made of many sources. If for example the yield is 8% and half of it is Roc then you are really only yielding 4%. The rest is just part of your capital back. At the end of the year you will pay tax on only the 4%.
2 If you consider a roc to be ‘ good’ vs bad . The way it’s good is if the roc paid that year is less than the increase in NAV (unrealized capital gain) for that year . Ie yield 8%. Half of yield is Roc so 4%. The Capital gains would have to be at least 4%. So it’s like your yield is 8% but made from 4% from regular dividend and 4% from unrealized gain. So fund value stays the same . They gave you 4% Roc back but have an extra 4% value of NAV to fest it.
If Nav increase is less than Roc you really aren’t getting the stated yield of the fund and long term it’s not a good sign for that fund.
3 if you let your ACB go to 0$ over many years ,then when you sell( and you will sell one day) let’s say at the same price you bought it ,you will pay 25% of the total amount you invested.
4 if you don’t want your ACB to go down than the portion of the yield that you get as Roc you would have to reinvest right away .
5 in the end it’s basically do you want to pay your capital gain ( tax on your yield) tax all now ( no Roc) or get Roc which is basically a deferred amount of money you will pay taxes on when you sell. Mathematically I believe they are the same outcome. I did an example on paper with one scenario no Roc at all and the other scenario 50 % Roc and keeping till acb is 0$. Got the same end value for both after taxes.
I think the best is a hybrid where you reinvest right away whatever Roc you get back . Firstly because in my mind the Roc is original capital and not yield so I might as well put my capital back and you ACB doesn’t go down this way so no big tax bill when you sell .
What do you think?
For 1, that’s not correct . Roc is not necessarily your money coming back . I see 8% as 8% . But yes there no tax on roc. Roc is simply the possible tax efficient income . Capital gains is second best so that’s what you pay on if your acb goes to zero which could take decades . Also all this doesn’t matter in a registered account
Hi
I was thinking about it more last night and I agree with you . Roc is yield because the number of units you own is still the same enemy thigh they are ‘ giving your money back ‘ . Also it’s great because you defer the tax like an rrsp and more money to invest with
Great video/explanations. Third time watching, doing other homework on this, in between.
Here is my debate on your view. SELLING an RoC-paying security means taxation on what would otherwise not be taxed - our original amount to buy the security in the first place. When capital amounts have been poured into a position (eventually) paying significant yield, a long-term holder wants the freedom to sell and not pay extra tax on their own money. Sounds best, to me to avoid RoC, maybe handling a small amount and/or as you pointed out, buy into a progression of RoC reduction, but still project a realistic RoC tax bill, many years into the future. It's important to note the RoC adds up year after year. It's not a 1-timer.
RoC, alone, makes a very compelling case for doing thorough homework first (other analysis components included, of course). Thank you for your videos!
It’s basically delayed capital gains , for when you sell . If you don’t sell it’s all tax free until your acb hits 0 Which could take decades
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting Thanks for confirming. Of all TH-camrs on Canadian passive investing, you have the most info on RoC and thank you for that.
To make sure I have this right (talking Canadian investments, only), RoC distribution-inclusion will ALWAYS be subject to capital gains tax on SELLING, correct?
If an already-retired senior who files with both CRA and IRS (no more RRSP and TFSA not useful - not IRS-recognized) wants to invest for dividend income, eventual selling as part of the strategy means RoC "yield" should be avoided. No RoC means after selling - assuming break even - the entire "nest egg" would be preserved and could then be "self-distributed" with zero tax implications.
So, in this scenario, RoC inclusion would essentially mean paying for the "privilege" of peeling off from your own nest egg, while receiving additional income from a fund's other distribution sources. (There are SO many ways these things can be framed, hehe.) Thanks.
I don’t understand why you say roc should be avoided . Makes no sense to me . Why ? In a registered account, it really makes no difference. And most of the time for the registered account , income investors prefer roc , they don’t avoid it
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting I should have been more specific: "...already-retired senior..." meant no longer RRSP-eligible and, because of IRS-filing requirement, TFSA is of no value. Under these circumstances, I can't see any advantage to any form of RoC.
A "senior" strategy would be strong dividend (with no RoC in the dividend) return for, say, 10 years or less and sell at a point when the original capital can be 100% (or more) recovered on selling the entire position. RoC will always have a tax obligation, which, to me, makes a strong case for a strategy that takes this deferred taxation (but taxation nonetheless) into consideration. If I'm mistaken, could you provide an example? Thanks.
Buddy , roc is simply delayed capital gains . I don’t know how else to explain it . It can never be worse than capital gains and in Canada , capital gains are taxed very well . Better than dividends in higher brackets
The RoC basically makes your regular investment account into a RRSP. You don't pay taxes unless you sell, meanwhile the income compounds forever, and gives you great returns, especially for high income tax individuals.
wow, very good! subscribed.
Thanks man ! Welcome !
Roc is mostly past losses carried forward on your distributions. Beautiful thing like you said once your ACB reaches zero capital gains are taxed very low only 50% of Capital gains are taxable when held in a cash account? Do you think 50% ROC payout ratio on distributions would be average? Great videos! Thanks you for sharing your knowledge:)
Yup roc is awesome , it’s different from fund to fund ,
So if I have a fund with ROC distributions and my cost basis is say $1000, when I get paid a distribution will I see the cost basis in my brokerage change? Or is this only factored in when I sell shares? Thanks
it will change automatically, typically once per year
I was slightly stumped about RoC. Thanks for clearing it up. GainsKeeper adjusts the basis and TDA doesn’t. I prefer TDA way. I will know my total capital gains. Is this logical thinking?
i have another ROC video you cal also see which is a bit newer
The thing I am confused about, you said Yield doesn't change when you buy ETF and split funds but does change when you buy income funds like EIT. So, my question is if I buy $1000 worth or shares in ETF or Split funds and get yield of let's say 10%, and after few months I buy another $1000 worth of shares, but the yield has changed to lets say 9%, now, how much cumulative yield I would get? With Income fund, you get whatever the current yield is , doesn't matter when you bought the shares and whatever the yield was at the time you bought ? If you can clarify in one of your videos , that would be great. I watch your videos multiple times, I swear I learned a lot from you.
Yield is tied to the annual dividend rate of each fund and most funds have a set amount like eit (1.20$) Your yield is entirely based on your book price , or average share price . It only changes when you buy more shares because it will impact your AVERAGE share price . Yield= annual dividend rate / your average share price x100 . So if we use your example of eit : the annual dividend rate is $ 1.20 /share . If you buy 1000 shares at 10 and 1000 shares at 9 , your average share price is 9.50. 1.20 / 9.50 x100 = your dividend yield
Love the cholesterol analogy! 👍👍
Roc is not taxable annually unless you sell, then it is taxed as capital gain.
What happens after you’re being paid in ROC after you’ve held the stock for years and the stock value drops to zero.? Are you then committed to stay there with those shares and will you still receive the dividend income on the shares you hold that are worth zero?
So what happens to the NAV with the 3rd scenario from the article? Does it stay the same?
What’s the reason for True North to report distributions as Return of Capital?
I m new to your channel and I m loving it! I m canadian as well, and we share almost the same name haha ( I guess I have the french version ;) )
I do have a question for you. Sorry if this has been maybe already asked
- I m really interested in the QYLD. As they are giving back 100% of RoC, is the 15% withholding applies ? I hope not
Unfortunately it still applies . One has nothing to do with the other . Welcome to the channel . Where it’s all about making money while you sleep . So you sleep better 😎
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting Thanks for the reply.
that sucks ^^.
I was thinking building up a strategy that combine QYLD and TQQQ for the growth perspective that QYLD is taken away so I need to get info about dividend/distribution of an US ETF as I will not have enough room in my RRSP to do so.
I really do like your perspective on investing and will spend a lot of hours watching your videos to catch it up and learn a max from it.
Cheers,
Merci :)
Hey guys, so apparently a Return of Capital took place in my TFSA May 5th with my BTCY and ETHY etfs…so the average cost of my BTCY reduced from 6.80$ to 6.24$ and ETHY went from 5.51$ to 5.13…but my total book cost in my TFSA was reduced by 4,000$…i dont know if this is a good thing or bad thing? As I made an investment Friday to reach a new milestone in my portfolio but instead turns out iv just been reduced by 4,000$. Please help as RBC direct investing can only provide whats happened but no investing advice…
Good advise in this video. Very informative. Thank you. Question: Would you consider putting your dividend income investments under an incorporated business to get some tax benefits on your passive income??? If so would you do a video of it please n thanks!
I might look into that more later bit an accountant told me it’s probably not worth it as taxes are a lot less of an issue when your not employed
No, no advantage of earning investment income inside your incorporated business.
Awesome video as always, thank you. If the distribution you receive is 100% ROC, and then you reinvest the full 100%, does this mean the ACB stays the same and there is no reduction of the ROC amount from the ACB ? Thank you.
No there’s still a reduction , whether you reinvest it or not (as far as I know)
I'm not convinced ... potentially a huge tax bill down the road if you ever want to sell
It’s silly thinking that way . Capital gains tax is BETTER than dividend income and salary income . It’s literally one of the least taxed sources of income .
My favorite stock Canone EIT has charged me tax but have not given me the promised bonus... will this be given back or is it som kind of fee??
So would A ROC in a way be protective against any stock price drops? If the price of the stock drops and you later sell the. That’s just less of the dividends that you were paid and later went as ROC that you must pay back taxes on??
Yes you can look at it that way
Is there any ETF with No ROC ?
yea, the ones that have no distributions lol
Wait.... I'm an absolute newbie here. Does that mean that assuming QYLD has 100% ROC every year, then:
1. If I were to invest 1000 shares at $22.5 into QYLD, then they'll just simply return my money to me over time (plus a tiny bit of interest), and when it reaches zero, then when I eventually sell everything, my 1000 shares are now worth $0 in the future (as they've paid everything back to me) ?
2. When the cost basis hits 0 and we still hold it, then the monthly dividend becomes $0, since there's no more ROC because all the initial capital has been returned ?
For 1) no . For 2) hell no
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting Thank you for your replies.
Well....
1. When it reaches $0 and assuming the share price at that time is $23, then upon selling it I will still get a full $23,000 (plus all the monthly dividends so far) ?
2. When it reaches $0, the amount of monthly dividend I receive will still be the same as all the holders of QYLD (even the new buyers) ?
Yes and yes 😉
So I guess the secret to qyld is to never sell it??
And as far as #1 above say you have 1000 shares and sell it for $23. You owe taxes on the 23,000 plus all the roc income you’ve made over the years?
Yes that’s the secret … it’s actually the secret to my entire investing strategy
So if your RoC holding does go down to 0, then any dividends would be considered capital gain and be taxed. That makes sense, but will it be considered a long-term capital gain or short-term?
We don’t have that in Canada ... so I can’t tell you
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting fair and honest reply, thank you and thanks for all the great videos!
What if you using margain
If you hold a covered call ETF forever, will roc be a problem?
Watch my roc video 😀 the answer is no
So I bought some qyld and plan on holding it forever. The dividends that I receive from it, they will be taxed as dividends or as capital gains? They are taxed at different percentages yes?
Which account are you holding it ?
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting it's an individual taxable brokerage account. Consisting of QYLD RYLD XYLD NUSI JEPI. 20% allocation each. I will never sell a share and want my family to live off dividends one day (I'm 32 with 2 kids). With these ETFs i just want to know how much should I put aside for taxes, percentage wise? I want to be perpared come tax time. Thank you so much for the awesome videos!
Hey do you know anything about swing trade in TFSA?
Ya , don’t do it
So... Buy this in your TFSA account and you are all good to go?
Good to go ? What do you mean ?
Hi Adrian I’ve been looking at CRR.UN Crombie Real estate fund good size and pays a yield of 6.05% can you add this one to a video and I’m thinking I like TNT over SOT. Thanks Rob
Hey Rob , If it gives less than 7% it’s not worth it in my opinion . Why bother when you can just get IDR which is safer with more yield ? Going forward , I only get single reits if they have a yield of over 7% .
Ino.un is looking pretty good what do you think of it?
How do you track your ACB? Do you use one of the online providers or do you have a spreadsheet for this?
I don’t track it because I won’t sell anything but you can use a free acb tracking tool online called acb tracking . It’s really annoying tracking it ....
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting what if you HAVE to sell in say, ten years?
Not tracking it can really come bite you.
Well then you need to back and determine how much roc you got over the years . Many funds have annual summaries on their website like I showed in the video . It will be annoying but definitely doable
@@LovesGrilling precisely! You need to track the quantity and price of each transaction. Then as Adrian say, you go to the stock's website to determine the ratio of ROC of the distributions received.
Charmaine is the roc expert !! A funny thing happened with Qyld in my broker account . The annual roc was automatically incorporated and td lowered my book cost accordingly !!! But they only did it for this specific stock, why , I don’t know . I wish the broker would do this for all stocks ... if they would , you wouldn’t need to track it ! It would be done automatically . Maybe one day they will , it would have enormous benefits to us
So if I buy QYLD it's going to be a ROC right? And if I buy 5k shares at $23 I'll have 217 shares, now if I decide to sell 217 shares at the same price 3 years later do I get my 5k back?👀 After collecting 0.11 % yield for those years.🤔Thanks.
Why don’t you save yourself a lot of trouble and don’t sell it ? Why sell something that’s making you income every month forever ?
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting Hello, yes sounds good like a plan, I'm just trying to understand the ETF.
Sounds like I need to keep it there for ten years to get my initial investment of 5k in this example correct?
Other wise I loose money right?
Can you make another video using a white board? Some of us need a visual along with the oral explanation.... Thanks 😊
Well yea but don’t think of it that way , think of it like owning an apartment building . It takes time to pay off the mortgage right ? But once it’s paid of ....
@@vcash1112 I believe with my limited tax knowledge your question could be answered as follows. As Adrian says if you held QYLD in either your TFSA or your RRSP you would be sheltered from tax so you would get back your $5000(sold at same price) plus the 11% yield for 3 years. Your account would then have $5000 +$550x3= $6650. If however QYLD was bought in a cash account and the ROC was 100%, after 3 years your ACB would be $5000- (3x$550)= $3350. So you now sell your shares and you would receive the full $5000 back. You would then be required to pay capital gain tax on $1650($5000-$3350). ie. Capital Gain-tax would be 50% of $1650 at your Marginal Tax Rate. You would probably end up with $6300-$6400 in your account.
It would still give you a 9% yield after taxes.
The way I wrap my head around ROC( in a cash account) is it is like lowering the purchase price of your shares and will trigger Capital Gains if your sell price is higher. I hope this makes sense.
This video ROC's.
Hey Adrian,
My strategy is to try to keep anything that pays ROC and interest income in my TFSA and RRSP and anything that pays eligible and capital dividends in my cash accounts. What are your thoughts on this strategy?
I understand why ... no roc headaches when you sell . But In doing so , you pay a lot more taxes now , as you don’t get the advantage of the roc tax savings .
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting good point as long as I don't sell it. My cash account is mostly stocks and ETFs that pay high yields. I think you have a simliar layout in a cash account in one of your videos.
Yeah , there is one thing I thought about .... having high yield stuff in the tfsa , many of which give roc can also be a good thing , because you free up more room for next year . You know what I mean ?
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting how do you free up more room in a TFSA? I thought its $6000/year for the last couple of years which works out to about $75500 since inception in 2009.
My TFSA holds EIT.UN, DFN, SBC and XTR.
Watch my tfsa is a gift video
More learning from you on ROC. I have to change my position on ROC from listening to your ROC vids. I have a few more to watch...thank you so much. I made a donation today to your channel aka you. 🙏🇨🇦📈📉$
Yup check them out ! They are in my tax video playlist . Roc is nothing to be afraid of . It’s basically delayed capital gains
@@PassiveIncomeInvesting Going down the list of your ROC playlist. Processing all your visual info as well on the topic. Keeping it real that there is still "bad" ROC which from what you teach can be detected by looking at the NAV history. So, that means when I use Stockcharts I can look at the area of value in the past and if you see lower lows and lower highs from the price history, or a downward slope can be drawn, then this would be "seen" as "bad ROC". If the price history on stock charts shows a relatively flat area of value....the highs and lows are around a certain price over a long historical period, then this is good ROC. And even better, if the historical price, NAV, shows higher highs and higher lows as areas of value, an upward slope, then confidence that this is a really Good ROC, Correct? I love using stockcharts. Have been using and practicing using it with 5 indicators that I like and are practical since 2007. Keep up the good work Adrian👍💯